View Full Version : BAD Lever + 16" Middy = Bolt Lock Issues *What I Found*
I have been trying to get a Magpul BAD to work 100% with my Noveske 16" Lo-Pro upper for a couple months now with mixed success. My only issue is the bolt will not lock back consistently on an empty magazine. First off, Noveske has admitted they have seen issues and I don't expect them to make it work 100% with an aftermarket product, I was just hoping to make it work like all my other AR's...
Things I tried and found:
- Happens same with Fed XM193, Fed AE223, and BH 75gr red box ammo.
- Tried C, H, & H2 buffers (no pattern found, settled on H buffer as Noveske recommended)
- Switching to a proven ionbonded BCG, didn't help.
- Did not work with Magpul 20's.
- Worked 80% of the time with USGI 20's.
- Worked 25% with CProducts Stainless Mags/Magpul/Wolf springs (I have always loved these mags for their durability)
- Worked 90% with USGI with Magpul followers and Wolfe/ISMI springs.
- Magpul 30's worked from 0-100% with various mags, probably an average of 80% though.
- Replacing Magpul springs with stronger springs brought bad mags up to 50%.
- I drilled 10 holes and ground half the backplate off the BAD to lighten up the mass, I would bet I reduced it by almost 25%. Didn't help :(
Final solution? Remove the BAD and everything runs 100%. Makes me sad but it only takes a little work after picking up the carbine to get the muscle memory switched straight.
I am going to keep shooting it as is and see if a couple thousand rounds will "break it in" enough to work with a BAD.
Does anyone think any other of the BAD type offerings out there have a chance of working better? The Phase 5 EBRv2 because it's one piece?
Has anyone else seen this issue with Mid length gas systems?
Dennis.
Has anyone else seen this issue with Mid length gas systems?
Haven't had that problem on my OBR 556 with a mid length system. It has an 18" barrel. Haven't tried it on any other midlengths, just carbines.
Never had any issues like this. Multiple mid-lengths, 14.5's, 16's...
You could always try switching to the A5 recoil system. If it doesn't work atleast you've got an A5 recoil system.
I have not had any failures to lock on my guns, from 11.5" to 16" barrel, carbine to mid-length gas. But I've also seen issues on other people's guns from 10.5" barrels to 16", carbine to mid-length gas. Not being my guns I haven't had an opportunity to analyze them.
I have a BAD lever on my Noveske Light Recce Basic w/VIS (midlength) and on my Noveske-based SBR. Both have thousands of rounds of all kinds of crap surplus ammo, all using 30 round Pmags...neither rifle has malfunctioned, BAD lever works great for me.
Thomas M-4
01-28-11, 20:59
- Worked 90% with USGI with Magpul followers and Wolfe/ISMI springs.
You might want to think about replacing the bolt catch spring and maybe the bolt catch. Could be the spring is slightly stiffer than it should be and or the bolt catch might be setting slightly tighter in the receiver.
Outlander Systems
01-28-11, 21:14
Thomas M-4 seems like he's got the diagnosis that makes the most sense.
Is the BAD rubbing against the receiver? Is there flex in the BAD? Pressure from the BAD could be preventing the bolt catch to pop forward. If it's kinking up somewhere, it might not be giving the bolt catch enough pivot room to fully engage.
You might want to think about replacing the bolt catch spring and maybe the bolt catch. Could be the spring is slightly stiffer than it should be and or the bolt catch might be setting slightly tighter in the receiver.
Did that too, the bolt catch moves freely and the new spring seems about the same as the previous one.
I also tried the upper with a couple other lowers with BADs with the same results.
Dennis.
Thomas M-4 seems like he's got the diagnosis that makes the most sense.
Is the BAD rubbing against the receiver? Is there flex in the BAD? Pressure from the BAD could be preventing the bolt catch to pop forward. If it's kinking up somewhere, it might not be giving the bolt catch enough pivot room to fully engage.
Checked that too, no rubbing or touching. Even loctited it to the bolt catch so it did not move forward or back.
Dennis.
I'm experiencing similar issues using Fedxm193 &PMC 55gr on a 10.5" LWRC shorty using the H2 buffer, 20 & 30 round PMags.
Funny thing is,
Bolt will lock back on all the other ammo I shoot: Wolf, Tula, Custom 69gr reloads, 55gr gunshow reloads.
I am going to switch back to the H buffer to see if I get any different results.
Someone mentioned A5 buffer system...can I use my UBR with this?
TIA.
Thomas M-4
01-28-11, 21:38
Did that too, the bolt catch moves freely and the new spring seems about the same as the previous one.
I also tried the upper with a couple other lowers with BADs with the same results.
Dennis.
:( Well it sounds like your upper doesn't like the BAD little confusing.
I have a buddy that has a 14.5'' middy with a BAD installed that seems to work with out any problems.
Outlander Systems
01-28-11, 21:41
Someone mentioned A5 buffer system...can I use my UBR with this?
Negative. The UBR uses an A2 "type" extension (smooth/cylindrical).
A5 is like a CAR extension with a "male enhancement".
:( Well it sounds like your upper doesn't like the BAD little confusing.
I'm at a loss. I would say HIGHLY confusing.
I am pretty sure that we have had other members report some issues as well. I believe that some of them were LMT.
motorwerks
01-29-11, 00:22
Negative. The UBR uses an A2 extension.
Negative is uses its own proprietary extension with a carbine buffer.
I know of a gent that "tunes" his BADs.
What he discovered (his words) is that, when the bolt catch is engaged, some BAD levers will touch the side of the lower receiver where the lever curves to traverse the trigger well. The theory is that this might keep the bolt catch from being able to engage in the midst of being bounced around under fire.
He'll bend his levers so that, when installed, they don't come closer than 1/16" of the receiver, no matter what. He's been successful each of 4 times, so I think he may be on to something.
Outlander Systems
01-29-11, 07:47
.....
ForTehNguyen
01-29-11, 08:08
if the bolt catch area doesnt have a lot of play in it, adding the BAD just slows it down risking a failure to lock back on empty
have about 5 BADs here on various lowers (DPMS, CMMG, Spikes), midlength uppers, and have had no problems even with steel case ammo.
I had the same problem with a BAD lever too....as have plenty of other people. As far as I can gather, some rifles just don't work well with them - its got nothing to do with brands, either, it seems to be individual weapons. I took mine off and sold it, lesson learned I'll never put one on again. I like the concept and function but now have no confidence in them - 100% last round bolt hold function is most important to me.
I know of a gent that "tunes" his BADs.
What he discovered (his words) is that, when the bolt catch is engaged, some BAD levers will touch the side of the lower receiver where the lever curves to traverse the trigger well. The theory is that this might keep the bolt catch from being able to engage in the midst of being bounced around under fire.
He'll bend his levers so that, when installed, they don't come closer than 1/16" of the receiver, no matter what. He's been successful each of 4 times, so I think he may be on to something.
Darn! That sounded so good I ran downstairs and re-installed my BAD to check... Alas, it wouldn't touch no matter how hard I pressed :(. I guess that's good but a solution would have been better!
How would you "tune" it anyways? With a torch I assume...
Thanks!
Dennis.
I had the same problem with a BAD lever too....as have plenty of other people. As far as I can gather, some rifles just don't work well with them - its got nothing to do with brands, either, it seems to be individual weapons. I took mine off and sold it, lesson learned I'll never put one on again. I like the concept and function but now have no confidence in them - 100% last round bolt hold function is most important to me.
I think the variation is more likely in the brand of ping-pong paddle bolt catch supplied in whatever LPK the mfgr is using on their rifles that week than it is in the lower receiver or BAD lever itself.
if the bolt catch area doesnt have a lot of play in it, adding the BAD just slows it down risking a failure to lock back on empty
have about 5 BADs here on various lowers (DPMS, CMMG, Spikes), midlength uppers, and have had no problems even with steel case ammo.
I believe there is plenty of play... I even have a BAD lower with excessive play and it won't work 100% with this upper.
I have a match chambered 16" mid, an 18" SPR, and two 14.5" carbines with no BAD problems. Frustrating overall but I'm trying to be realistic about it.
What I don't get is that changing between a C, H, and H2 buffer had no difference, and either does changing between lower power .223 and stronger 5.56 ammo. However, replacing my older buffer spring with a new standard sprinco did make bolt lock better than before (to where it is now)
Dennis.
Outlander Systems
01-29-11, 11:09
How would you "tune" it anyways? With a torch I assume...
Thanks!
Dennis.
Answer is from 0:30-0:38:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWOn1dFmFds
Answer is from 0:30-0:38:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWOn1dFmFds
Oh yeah, can't forget the pliers... :D
HEH!
No blowtorch, but a bench vice, a pair of vice grips, and verrrrry incremental small prys until it's where he needs it to be.
Never had an issue with my 10.5, 12.5 or 16 ML. Is it only BAD that has an issue? Does the phase 5, Troy, Etc have these issues?
You're not bumping the BAD with your trigger finger on the last shot, are you?
I know, I know. This sounds stupid, but I was having problems with my FNP-40 shooting double action only (when it should have been single action after the first shot). I realized that my grip was off slightly and my strong-hand thumb was bumping the decocker. :o Readjusted my grip, and problem solved. Just a thought.
You're not bumping the BAD with your trigger finger on the last shot, are you?
I know, I know. This sounds stupid, but I was having problems with my FNP-40 shooting double action only (when it should have been single action after the first shot). I realized that my grip was off slightly and my strong-hand thumb was bumping the decocker. :o Readjusted my grip, and problem solved. Just a thought.
I wish it was that simple ;)
Something must be out of spec with the OPs set up. Either the Noveske is not getting enough gas, or the lower is impeding the movement of the bolt catch. I run Magpul BAD levers on all of my carbines and have never had a failure to lock the bolt back on an empty magazine. That's with 18" barrel and rifle gas, 16" barrel mid length & carbine gas, 14.5" barrel mid length gas, and 10.5" barrel carbine gas.
As you can see they all have a BAD lever
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5241/5213882132_91161df369_b.jpg
I also tried the upper with a couple other lowers with BADs with the same results.
Dennis.
If that is the case then opening the gas port slightly is probably your only solution, beyond just leaving the BAD off.
Cameron
What I don't get is that changing between a C, H, and H2 buffer had no difference, and either does changing between lower power .223 and stronger 5.56 ammo. However, replacing my older buffer spring with a new standard sprinco did make bolt lock better than before (to where it is now)
Dennis.
Went through the same process with my last build. 16" middy BCM.
Using the P5T EBRv2 instead of the Magpul BAD since the BAD wouldn't fit my billet upper. Ended up with a H2 and the RED extra power spring from Tactical Springs to get the thing to lock back on empty with both Wolf and 5.56 ammo in PMags and USGI mags.
Went through the same process with my last build. 16" middy BCM.
Using the P5T EBRv2 instead of the Magpul BAD since the BAD wouldn't fit my billet upper. Ended up with a H2 and the RED extra power spring from Tactical Springs to get the thing to lock back on empty with both Wolf and 5.56 ammo in PMags and USGI mags.
Why do you think a heavier buffer and stronger spring fixed your bolt lock issue? It seems that it would slow down the system... Maybe giving it more time to "dwell" and pop the catch up? Maybe the system was running too fast in the first place (strange, since carbine gas uppers run/lock fine on my lower.)
Would my VLTOR buffer extension seeming a bit shorter than "regular" ones be part of it?
I just got a Phase 5 Tactical EBVR2 and will see if that works any different. Will bring along extra buffers as well and see what happens.
Still wondering...
Dennis.
It had me "stumped" too. This is my first midlength and I guess I was expecting it to be a lot softer shooting than it was. Seemed to me to be just as harsh as my carbines. Initial range trip it locked back only with Wolf and an USGI mag with a H buffer and regular CS spring.
Next I tried the H2 buffer, and then the H2 with red spring. Guess it finally slowed everything down enough to let the bolt catch engage.
OK, no bueno.
I just got a new Phase 5 Tactical EBRv2 and tried all combos of Sprinco Blue and Wolff XP buffer springs with C, H, and H2 buffers with no luck. Still the same rate of failure...
I'm back to the ping pong paddle, maybe I'll try again in 5000 rounds.
Dennis.
It may be that the BAD lever is contacting the lower receiver preventing full release of the bolt catch. The BAD contact point may show up as a shiny wear point on the receiver. Establish a baseline by removing the upper and the BAD and see how far the bolt catch moves forward (sideways). Put the BAD back on and see if you get the same results. Try and slip a piece of paper between the receiver and BAD when it is engaged and see if you can move the piece of paper. There should be a hair of space between the lever and the receiver. If not, consider adjusting the BAD with a Dremel at the contact point. Another site had the same problem posted, others get the credit, I just passed this along.
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