View Full Version : The end of the G21?
Is it possible that with the HK45/c and the M&P45/c that the Glock 21 will soon be obsolete? Anytime someone asks "what new 45 should I buy because...?" People usually answer "HK45 OR M&P45." I know because I typically answer HK45. I hardly see people suggest a G21.
Was the G21SF not good enough of an improvement? I had a G21SF and got rid of it. I shot well, but I didn't think anything special of it. With that being said, I LOVE my HK45 and really like my M&P 45.
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-30-11, 13:20
I dont think it will go away its a great pistol and half the price of the H&K. Besides is a glock and they have a rep thats every bit as good as the other 2 pistols you mentioned.
The NYSP have chosen it as there weapon of choice. You know if you realy had a bad boss they would give you the Beretta PX4
I don't think so.
The H&K 45 is a great gun, but it is just as large, more expensive and holds 10 rounds in the mag. Yes, it offers a great ergonomics, but with the price it carries along with little aftermarket sight options and only a DA/SA or LEM trigger pull as options I think it competes primarily with the 1911 rather than the G21.
The M&P 45 is also has only a 10 round mag and is only slightly more concealable than the G21. It does offer some more options (such as holsters, sights and such) than the HK45, but again I don't see it as "replacing" the G21's position in the market.
I think if you are inclined to want a high-capacity 45 ACP for on-the-belt duty carry the Glock 21 is hard to beat. No, it may not be nearly as "ergonomic" when you pick it up as the other two pistols you mentioned, but most folks that carry one find they shoot it quite well and it carries easier than most might think.
Fair enough, I was just asking.
How about the G30/G36?
I remember shooting a Glock 36 and I didn't like it at all. Main reason being that it malfunctioned 4 times.
The Glock 21 is what I am issued through my department.
I hate it, I can shoot it well, but it is the most uncomfortable gun I have ever had, or used. It is just to large for a majority of peoples hands.
Now, I'm not a Glock guy to begin with, but I would much rather have the M&P, or the HK. I have a Sig P220 that I would carry over the 21.
gtmtnbiker98
01-30-11, 15:01
I am just shocked that Glock receives a pass for all the Gen 4 issues, can't wait to see how the other Gen 4 rollouts transpire. If it were Sig or any other manufacturers with this many issues, then all Hell would break loose. Sorry, but Glock is not the end all, be all pistol. IMO, Glock is good for 9mm, if you are seeking other calibers, then HK and M&P is the name of the game.
Fair enough, I was just asking.
How about the G30/G36?
I remember shooting a Glock 36 and I didn't like it at all. Main reason being that it malfunctioned 4 times.
the G36 is glock's lemon.
I've heard they've got it more or less sorted out now, but its reputation is already trashed for most people.
I don't think the G21 and G30 are going anywhere personally. I'd go HK if i wanted a 45, but that's partly just the fanboy in me. :o
PRGGodfather
01-30-11, 15:15
We issue the Glock 21SF to all of our officers. So far, everyone seems to like them quite a bit.
I am just shocked that Glock receives a pass for all the Gen 4 issues, can't wait to see how the other Gen 4 rollouts transpire. If it were Sig or any other manufacturers with this many issues, then all Hell would break loose. Sorry, but Glock is not the end all, be all pistol. IMO, Glock is good for 9mm, if you are seeking other calibers, then HK and M&P is the name of the game.
I'm not sure on what exactly the #'s are here, but I'll play devils advocate for a second...
Let's look at what Glock changed with their Gen4 vs Gen3 guns, then look at what SIG changed between say an 03 era P226R vs an 05 era P226R. I bet there's a reason people are more/less "accepting" the teething issues of the G4 guns vs the 226s...
Now yeah, I'll agree it's a double standard. Doesn't make it right that Glock gets a pass and Sig gets thrown under the 37 mile long train, but again I think it has more to do with what Sig changed vs what Glock changed as to the why.
I'm not taking anything you say/ask personally, even tho I was one of the people who recommended Glock. The only reason I did was b/c the OP of that topic already carried a G19, and most people here talk about streamlining weapon systems and being a master of it. I see nothing wrong with knowing the M&P, Glock, 1911, H&K sytem(s) or whatever else someone wants to own/run/shoot after all almost all of us are gun enthusiasts first and foremost...but in the idea of affordability plus sensibility I think going "all Glock" made more sense.
Now if he said "I just want a non-1911 .45 b/c I want one" oh hell yeah, I would've recommended an HK45 or M&P45 without a second thought!
Two G21's make up my primary HD. They are not getting replaced anytime soon. Not everyone can pay HK prices, and if you want or need two guns, then it is $1100 vrs $1600. $500 is a big difference, especially since the Glock goes bang everytime, and it is very user friendly. JMHO
FChen17213
01-30-11, 16:47
Both the M&P and HK45 hold 10 rounds rather than 13. Both guns have slimmer grips that generally feel better than the G21's. Like everything else in life, you give something up to get something. Like the FNP45 that holds 14 rounds of 45ACP, the G21 is a higher capacity double column 45. I think it will be here to stay. There will always be people who will take a thicker more uncomfortable grip to have a few more rounds. That being said, I like my G21 although I freely admit that the HK45 and M&P45 feel better in my hand.
We issue the Glock 21SF to all of our officers. So far, everyone seems to like them quite a bit.
Here in Greenville County the same. I like the pistol alot. I also like my HK USP .45 and 9mm. But i also have a 21sf rtf2 for HD. Glocks are one of my fav.s for known reasons. All mine are gen3 to....
Littlelebowski
01-30-11, 17:08
Arkansas State troopers are issued Gen3 G21s. One of my best friends is with them and is very happy with his. He's a big dude so it fits his hands fine. I bought him a Custom Carry Concepts Shaggy for it and he is carrying that monster appendix style off duty.
Let's look at what Glock changed with their Gen4 vs Gen3 guns, then look at what SIG changed between say an 03 era P226R vs an 05 era P226R. I bet there's a reason people are more/less "accepting" the teething issues of the G4 guns vs the 226s...
Now yeah, I'll agree it's a double standard. Doesn't make it right that Glock gets a pass and Sig gets thrown under the 37 mile long train, but again I think it has more to do with what Sig changed vs what Glock changed as to the why.
Longhorn, what exactly changed between an 03 and 05 P226? The only thing that I can think of is the addition of a few MIM parts, and several years ago, SIG did let out some guns that had some faulty MIM parts, which has been fixed. Glock changed the whole frame and recoil spring with the Gen4's.
There is a HUGE double standard that is even more blown out of proportion by the errornet. Then you have the guys that have to jump on the latest "flavor of the month" bandwagon, and dismiss anything that's not the latest and greatest. Then you get questions such as the OP's. The G21 is a viable platform, and will continue to be for years to come. The HK45 is a great weapon too, but it doesn't make the Glock obsolete. The M&P is still not ready for prime time yet, in my opinion, but they they all are capable of accomplishing the same goal. Hell, look at the 1911... it's been around for 100 years!
I wouldn't want a Gen4 Glock right now, as they are still having teething issues. Even the Gen3 guns had problems and aren't the "end all be all" gun, as someone else said. My SIGs, new or old, were more reliable and more accurate than my G19. With that being said, EVERY manufacturer has had some QC or parts problems, and that includes H&K.
Is it possible that with the HK45/c and the M&P45/c that the Glock 21 will soon be obsolete? Anytime someone asks "what new 45 should I buy because...?" People usually answer "HK45 OR M&P45." I know because I typically answer HK45. I hardly see people suggest a G21.
Was the G21SF not good enough of an improvement? I had a G21SF and got rid of it. I shot well, but I didn't think anything special of it. With that being said, I LOVE my HK45 and really like my M&P 45.
The G21 obsolete? Who knows, however the G30SF is superior to both the M&P and the HK...
gtmtnbiker98
01-30-11, 19:10
The G21 obsolete? Who knows, however the G30SF is superior to both the M&P and the HK...Uh, no it's not.
Longhorn, what exactly changed between an 03 and 05 P226? The only thing that I can think of is the addition of a few MIM parts, and several years ago, SIG did let out some guns that had some faulty MIM parts, which has been fixed. Glock changed the whole frame and recoil spring with the Gen4's.
I just threw the 03 and 05 #'s out there as kind of a blind reference. Not trying to insinuate those are the beginning and ending points of perfection, just for comparisons sake if I have to choose Gen3 vs Gen4, I've got to have some sort of distinctive "difference" for the Sig.
But that's my point. Look at what was changed, then what failed and maybe that has something to do with why it's accepted in Glock's case versus Sig's case? I dunno...I'm just trying to rationalize an irrational mass opinion.
I have G21 and an HK USP Tactical and I like them both. I have big hands and this probably has something to do with it. After shooting the glock for so long, the trigger reset of the HK felt REALLY weird.
I can shoot the HK more accurately.
Next 45 for me will likely be a 2011.
I have had a G30 for years and traded it in on a G30SF when they came out. It just fit my hand better. As soon as I could afford to I also bought a G21SF mainly because it holds 13 rounds. It also fits my hand well. If money were no object I would have a HK but they are just too expensive for me and holding only 10 rounds, I would rather carry the G30SF. Some people just just don't like Glocks and that's fine, but I do. I doubt that Glock will be dropping the G21 and the Gen4 version will probably be out soon. It's always good to have plenty of choices... pick what you like! :)
We issue the Glock 21SF to all of our officers. So far, everyone seems to like them quite a bit.
Only female officers in my dept. can get the 21sf, equal rights?:confused::mad:
I think the HK45 and M&P 45's popularity over the G21 has to do with a mix of things:
- The HK45 has a providence that a lot of 1911 guys can get behind. It was designed by the world's foremost expert on duty 1911s and includes all the technical aspects of a good 1911 that the fan base can get behind (hammer fired, single action, very accurate).
- The G21 built a reputation as being sort of huge and un-ergonomic for all but the biggest hands. The G21SF may have improved on that problem substantially, but the ergos of the HK and M&P win, hands down.
- The other factor is California. It is a huge market for 1911s because of the magazine capacity issue coupled with the fact that Californians have a lot of money. The G21 was always a neutered pistol there, but the M&P and HK45 both get to the People's Republic in an unadulterated state.
The G21 obsolete? Who knows, however the G30SF is superior to both the M&P and the HK...
An opinion based on personal preference.
That is not even a rational comparison for the armed professional or serious shooter requiring a full size handgun.
To compare the 30SF, MP45C and HK45C?
My opinion: The G30/30SF is short, fat and akward to carry IWB. It does have fill a niche for certain users, and does it well.
The MP45C conceals slightly better than a G19/23, has better ergo's (interchangable grips) and will accept a full size light.
I have no experience with an HK45C.
The G30SF is superior only in magazine capacity (10 vs 8).
Edit to add: The G21 has a strong following and is not going away, however...Glock will continue to lose customers in the market for a full size .45 to S&W and the XD (based on price point), and to HK and FN to a lesser extent. Remember, there was a time when the chunky old Glock was the only game in town for a high capacity striker fired pistol.
Dang it, guys on the interweb say the G21 sucks, its uncomfortable,its unreliable as hell..
Crap! I just bought a new G21sf and I love it, I havent had any problems yet, Ive owned some real nice 1911's and a few p220's and I much prefer the g21 but dammit, I guess I better sell it and get a HK, cause the web-pro's know best and that g21 is sooo 2004..:no:
I doubt the .45 Glock is going anywhere. People that love the caliber and platform will buy it due to reliability, capacity (if in a free state), familiarity of platform and so on. I love the HK45 and think its a great .45 but I have tiny hands and live in a ban state. The G30 I used to have was very nice and I wish I never sold it.
As a diehard Glock user, I've always hated the 21. Our dept. issues it, so I had to tolerate the horrible grip. Then I got a sweet deal on a 21 SF and had Accurate Iron trick it out. I actually like it as much as my 17 now. (well, almost) :)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG4544.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG4551.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG4555.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG4550.jpg
Since these pics I've added an X300 with DG switch and some arrendondo +4 basepads to the spares. That gives me 48 rounds of 230gr Gold Dot in a reliable, ergronomic package.
R3V3LATIONS
01-30-11, 22:22
Dang it, guys on the interweb say the G21 sucks, its uncomfortable,its unreliable as hell..
Crap! I just bought a new G21sf and I love it, I havent had any problems yet, Ive owned some real nice 1911's and a few p220's and I much prefer the g21 but dammit, I guess I better sell it and get a HK, cause the web-pro's know best and that g21 is sooo 2004..:no:
Somehow I think the intention of the thread was missed. It wasnt about slamming a specific gun or company. On another note, if your G21SF works for you, congratulations you have made a good purchase. And most of the people here are NOT web-pros or mall ninjas. The majority are tactical LEO, LEO, military contract holders, serious shooters. Dont like what is being said, then go find a forum that will tell you what you want to hear, but in this house, when questions are posed, serious but yet respectfully brutal honesty is generally the nature of the response.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=311&pictureid=1620
Uh, no it's not.
Okay, I'll bite. The G30SF, Lighter, Smaller, significantly fewer parts, easier to maintain, easier to fix, easier to get parts for, easier to shoot, holds an equal or greater cartridge capacity, more durable....Best of all, half the price(of the HK) Have I forgotten anything? :D
Okay, I'll bite. The G30SF, Lighter, Smaller, significantly fewer parts, easier to maintain, easier to fix, easier to get parts for, easier to shoot, holds an equal or greater cartridge capacity, more durable....Best of all, half the price(of the HK) Have I forgotten anything? :D
lighter, smaller, fewer parts, i agree with.
standard capacity is equal, ok.
price, you win that argument all day.
the rest is highly debatable.
i have a g21sf and, to me, at half the price it is half the gun the hk45 is.
truncated
Have I forgotten anything? :D
Well-reasoned objectivity.
A number of the things you listed are either conjecture or merely personal preference.
End of the G21? Probably so with the G21 Gen 4 about to land! ;)
I think the G21SF is a great gun... 14 rounds of .45 acp and stone reliable... I like mine a lot. I did add TalonGrips traction tape to make the grip stick in my hand... great addition. It lives daily (and nightly) around the house and on the nightstand. (I work at home). But I feel it would definitely benefit from a somewhat smaller grip with a fair bit more traction so traction tape and stippling isn't necessary...
Enter the G21 Gen 4 (soon, I think!)
Chances are this will turn out to be a full size .45 that wins a lot of people over. If the grip is close to being as wonderful as the other Gen 4's I've felt, with a 14 round capacity, this will be a great full size .45 in my view. Add in a double recoil spring design and the gun will shoot even softer than the Gen 3. And even if the ONLY change the Gen 4 G21 gets is the new grip, it will be a winner... because that's all the Gen 3 G21/G21SF really needs.
Glock proved they've got dual-recoil springs down with the G29, 30, 26, 27, etc. Once they get the Gen 4 spring rates perfected (by offering standard and light spring options), I think all the dual-spring Gen 4 Glocks will resume the boring reliability of the Gen 3's. Some of the Gen 4s are going through some teething now with the new dual-spring rates getting tweaked. But I'm confident that in a bit of time, this will all be behind us.
Time will play it all out. In a year or so, we'll have a whole 'nother perspective.
Nothing wrong with the HK and M&P .45s. They're arguably good quality guns, but for a full size .45, I like 14 rounds on tap. And the G21SF does that well. If I'm going to carry a .45 limited to 11-shots, its going to be my favorite compact big-bore, the G30.
In my experience, the G30 is the best carry-size .45 available... nothing comes close for me. It's got a very comfortable width to it, in my view, stout and comfortable. Makes other guns seem perhaps a bit skinny in comparison. Most people can easily get accustomed to the G30 grip, it's a fair bit leaner than the G21SF. The wide grip distributes recoil softly, in a more dispersed manner throughout the palm. Eleven round capacity, stone reliable, accurate, and very soft shooting. I think the G30/30SF is one of Glocks best guns.
So, no, I think for a lot of shooters the G21/G21SF will carry on well, and soon, the new G21 Gen 4 will probably become even more popular than its predecesors. I'm not even tempted to go to the M&P45 or the HK45, and having an M&P40 and M&P40C, I like that platform.
But I AM eagerly anticipating the G21 Gen 4!
Okay, I'll bite. The G30SF, Lighter, Smaller, significantly fewer parts, easier to maintain, easier to fix, easier to get parts for, easier to shoot, holds an equal or greater cartridge capacity, more durable....Best of all, half the price(of the HK) Have I forgotten anything? :D
Yes. Read post #22 of this thread.
That (G30 vs HK45/MP45) is not even a rational comparison for the armed professional or serious shooter requiring a full size handgun.
Wrong forum for these types of comparisons and off topic. Tell us your experience, other than "I own a G30, therefore it is better".
An opinion based on personal preference.
That is not even a rational comparison for the armed professional or serious shooter requiring a full size handgun.
To compare the 30SF, MP45C and HK45C?
My opinion: The G30/30SF is short, fat and akward to carry IWB. It does have fill a niche for certain users, and does it well.
The MP45C conceals slightly better than a G19/23, has better ergo's (interchangable grips) and will accept a full size light.
I have no experience with an HK45C.
The G30SF is superior only in magazine capacity (10 vs 8).
Edit to add: The G21 has a strong following and is not going away, however...Glock will continue to lose customers in the market for a full size .45 to S&W and the XD (based on price point), and to HK and FN to a lesser extent. Remember, there was a time when the chunky old Glock was the only game in town for a high capacity striker fired pistol.
:rolleyes: "Not rational?" The Glock is a much easier pistol to field, an individual or nation, can do just that at two for one, as opposed to the offering from HK. I own an HK45, its a nice pistol, its also to big, it offers no advantage in capacity with its increase in size, in point of fact, its much more bulky than the G30.
Its also much more complex with significantly more parts, and a much greater degree of difficulty in obtaining them for the average man. The HK magazines are disappointing, the feed lips on mine while not quite shaving sharp, did their best to give that impression, further the HK is not an easy pistol to field strip, requiring some deft finger movements from both hands....
I also believe the M&P to be superior to the HK45, for much the same reasons, though it is not as durable, and easy to care for as is the Glock, not quite as proven....These are my very sincere observations based upon first hand experience with all three, honestly I really don't care who designed the HK, if I were to find myself in a foxhole with only a pistol, if given any choice in the matter, I would choose the Glock over the HK for all of the above, and S&W because in my experience the M&P is not as proven.....
Emotions have nothing to do with my observations, I simply know the Glock to be the simpler mechanism, in the field where these machines were designed to operate, simple trumps complexity everytime.
Yes. Read post #22 of this thread.
Wrong forum for these types of comparisons and off topic. Tell us your experience, other than "I own a G30, therefore it is better".
The G30 is virtually the same size as the G23/19...I do believe the G21 to be to big, though its really no bigger than the HK45. The G30 is quite germane to the topic as it can easily be fielded as a service pistol, hell, half of NYPD does the same with the G19, a pistol virtually identical in size. The only practical advantage the HK really enjoys, is an 1.5 " longer barrel...
:rolleyes: "Not rational?" The Glock is a much easier pistol to field, an individual or nation, can do just that at two for one, as opposed to the offering from HK. I own an HK45, its a nice pistol, its also to big, it offers no advantage in capacity with its increase in size, in point of fact, its much more bulky than the G30.
Its also much more complex with significantly more parts, and a much greater degree of difficulty in obtaining them for the average man. The HK magazines are disappointing, the feed lips on mine while not quite shaving sharp, did their best to give that impression, further the HK is not an easy pistol to field strip, requiring some deft finger movements from both hands....
I also believe the M&P to be superior to the HK45, for much the same reasons, though it is not as durable, and easy to care for as is the Glock, not quite as proven....These are my very sincere observations based upon first hand experience with all three, honestly I really don't care who designed the HK, if I were to find myself in a foxhole with only a pistol, if given any choice in the matter, I would choose the Glock over the HK for all of the above, and S&W because in my experience the M&P is not as proven.....
Emotions have nothing to do with my observations, I simply know the Glock to be the simpler mechanism, in the field where these machines were designed to operate, simple trumps complexity everytime.
Well said. Much better.
It think Glock would have a hit it they extended the 30sf, with the Gen 4 upgrades to a 4" barrel, the grip slighlty longer (11 round mag?) and targeted the mid-size market (vs. the Mid-size M&P45).
They could call it the "G45". :cool:
OP, I don't think the G21 isn't going anywhere. It has it's own following for good reason. It's light, handles well, the sf version is accurate and Glock seems to have worked out whatever problems the pistol once had. The 30 and 36 make nice concealable companions to the 21 sf user.
Whatever works best for you is the answer. Every quality platform does something well, and they all have detriments. The HK 45, 45 C and the USPs are huge pistols. Depending on your mission, that may or may not be a problem. They're also light, reliable and extremely accurate. The M&P 45 is very accurate, but has a bad out of box trigger and isn't quite time proven yet. The 1911 is, IMHO, the most accurate pistol out there, very easy to shoot well, but it's also maintenance intensive. As i said there is upside and downside to all.
davebee456
01-30-11, 23:55
i think the glock 21SF with night sights is almost the ultimate hi cap 45 out for people who can handle that grip and with a two handed grip its not so bad.
14 rounds of 45acp and almost glock 17 reliability is hard to beat.
GermanSynergy
01-30-11, 23:56
You honestly think the HK 45 is difficult to field strip?
Its also much more complex with significantly more parts, and a much greater degree of difficulty in obtaining them for the average man. The HK magazines are disappointing, the feed lips on mine while not quite shaving sharp, did their best to give that impression, further the HK is not an easy pistol to field strip, requiring some deft finger movements from both hands....
i think the glock 21SF with night sights is almost the ultimate hi cap 45 out for people who can handle that grip and with a two handed grip its not so bad.
14 rounds of 45acp and almost glock 17 reliability is hard to beat.
Well stated and I fully concur.
It think Glock would have a hit it they extended the 30sf, with the Gen 4 upgrades to a 4" barrel, the grip slighlty longer (11 round mag?) and targeted the mid-size market (vs. the Mid-size M&P45).
YES!!!! Great concept.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=311&pictureid=1620
I have not seen this before... could you elaborate?
Thank you
While on a part-by-part comparison might find the HK45/45C to be a superior gun qualitiatively, the reality is that in actual fielded use much of that "superioity" is simply unnecessary (and costly) over-engineering, and as a overall gun/package the G21 works quite nicely.
Glock also provides operator-friendly field- and detail-strippable gun, durable (and numerically few) components, and superb aftermarket support for both organizational and civilian users. Magazines are plentiful, available, and inexpensive-and durable.
In actual use, I simply don't find the G21 to be all that bulky, difficult to carry, or inconcealable. I also index quite nicely with it.
While I think that the HK45/45Cs are superb firearms, they're simply not providing a sufficient need or value over my G21 to warrant their purchase.
Glock has also been quite nimble, in the parlance of manufacturing response, to very quickly jump on and rectify the issues with some of the Gen4 Glocks. I'm unconvinced that the M&P is sufficiently debugged to this day-and Smith & Wesson literally took years to rectify some of its identified issues. And, while the HK45 is a superb gun, it too has some issues, as discussed by Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn-which involve more money to be thrown at an already quite expensive (in comparison to its polymer competitors) gun.
I think that where the HK45/45C potentially shine is as a replacement for a 1911-not as a really necessary replacement for the G21.
Best, Jon
Glock was designed around the 9mmm round. The Glock 17 was stretched, pulled, enlarged, and expanded to accommodate the larger calibers. It is a fact, and it is also a fact that there has been ongoing problems with them. It is a design issue. The gun was not designed to handle larger calibers and higher pressure rounds, and has not transitioned well to them.
Here is a link:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11699
From the thread quoting DocGKR:
"There are many G21's that function well. The problem, as LAPD, SCPD, and other agencies have found, is that unlike the G17, when looked at in aggregate a significant number of G21's do NOT work perfectly.
Mr. Vickers is widely acknowledged as one of the best pistolsmiths currently working, as well as the only member of the American Pistolsmith's Guild to concurrently serve on active duty in the U.S. military. Mr. Vickers served in numerous SOF assignments, including Combat Development, as well as having worked as a consultant in the firearms industry. Mr. Vickers has had a hand in the genesis of several SOF combat systems. He may have more experience with the technical aspects of pistols used in combat environments than just about anyone else on earth, as the organization he served with shot in excess of one million rounds of .45 ACP per year, as well as significant amounts of 9 mm ammunition. Some individuals may be unaware that Mr. Vickers was a key person responsible for getting Glocks accepted into use by U.S. SOF personnel. Mr. Vickers clearly understands and acknowledges the benefits and limitations of each small arm, including M1911’s, Glocks, HK’s, M9’s, P226’s, etc… All the statements I have seen Mr. Vickers make have been unbiased and based on extensive, hard won experience. In short, regarding this topic you can take what he says to the bank… His public comments regarding Glocks are right on target: "The 9 mm Glocks (G17/19) are the best, the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up, and the full size .45 (G21) breaks; the Glock 21 is a dog and always has been. It has the reputation as the worst gun Glock makes”.
I would love it if the G21 was profoundly robust and reliable—-what is there not to like? Unfortunately, it is not. Based on my personal experiences, as well as what I have observed, a stock Glock 17 would be my first out of the box choice for a rugged hard use pistol. Weapons are tools; the minute a better pistol is identified, I’ll be recommending that one. Folks wanting a non-1911 .45 ACP pistol are probably best served by a M&P or HK45, not a G21 or Sig P220.
The bottom line is that G21's have consistently demonstrated too many problems to be considered a hard use combat pistol. Personally, I love Glocks, but only in 9 mm… “
Beat Trash
01-31-11, 10:03
While I prefer the M&P and the HK to the Glock when talking about 45 acp, I don't foresee the Glock 21 going away anytime soon.
If the Gen 4 Glock 21 manages to arrive without any issues, then I think you will see a lot of interest return to the 45 caliber Glocks.
Either way, I don't think the Glock 21 is going anywhere soon. Now, will the Glocks in 45 gap be around in five years?
Glock was designed around the 9mmm round. The Glock 17 was stretched, pulled, enlarged, and expanded to accommodate the larger calibers. It is a fact, and it is also a fact that there has been ongoing problems with them. It is a design issue. The gun was not designed to handle larger calibers and higher pressure rounds, and has not transitioned well to them.
Here is a link:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11699
From the thread quoting DocGKR:
That's a good quote, but the .45 ACP cartridge is a relatively LOW pressure cartridge, not a high pressure one.
Secondly, the LAV quote that's reverberated around the gun universe for several years pertained to a relatively early G21, and his sandbag test was done years ago. Glock has provided multiple incremental and major changes to the platform since, and if you're in an environment with the expectation of encountering pervasive/invasive of high velocity sand or immersion in it, then one of the numerous aftermarket butt plugs (or simply duct or masking tape) would be well advised to seal off the cavity at the receiver heel.
The quote also does not deal with the numerous issues that have cropped up with the M&P-years after the G21 issues have been dealt with and resolved.
No gun (or for that matter, anything created by man) is perfect-but I'm personally (as are many others) quite satisfied with the G21, particularly as its evolved.
Best, Jon
The G21 obsolete? Who knows, however the G30SF is superior to both the M&P and the HK...
If you say so, sure. But I say it is NOT better than the HK and/or M&P.
...Dont like what is being said, then go find a forum that will tell you what you want to hear, but in this house, when questions are posed, serious but yet respectfully brutal honesty is generally the nature of the response.
That's why I asked it here.
You honestly think the HK 45 is difficult to field strip?
Compared to the G21? yes, I know it is...
Glock was designed around the 9mmm round. The Glock 17 was stretched, pulled, enlarged, and expanded to accommodate the larger calibers. It is a fact, and it is also a fact that there has been ongoing problems with them. It is a design issue. The gun was not designed to handle larger calibers and higher pressure rounds, and has not transitioned well to them.
Most successful pistol platforms have been "stretched" around other calibers. The M&P, CZ75, BHP, Colt's 1911, HK USP, ect...have all been "stretched, pulled, enlarged, and expanded" to one extent or another in attempts to consolidate additional calibers into the fold.
As to the Glock being delicate with high pressure ammunition, poppycock! The 9mm standard pressure load hums along at, or about 35,000 psi, while the standard .45 ACP does so at 21,000 psi, up the pressure to +P and the mighty .45 zips along at 23,000 psi, the 9mm at 38,000! In point of fact, we wouldn't even have the 10mm cartridge anymore if not for the unmatched durability of the G20, which is the exact same pistol as the G21.
Has there been issues with the G21's? Yeah, there definitely has been, I had an SF blow up in my face, causing me injury. I wouldn't be truthful in saying that I wasn't soured on them at first. However, it was demonstrated to me conclusively that the ammo was the problem....
That's a good quote, but the .45 ACP cartridge is a relatively LOW pressure cartridge, not a high pressure one.
"......the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up......"
Secondly, the LAV quote that's reverberated around the gun universe for several years pertained to a relatively early G21, and his sandbag test was done years ago. Glock has provided multiple incremental and major changes to the platform since, and if you're in an environment with the expectation of encountering pervasive/invasive of high velocity sand or immersion in it, then one of the numerous aftermarket butt plugs (or simply duct or masking tape) would be well advised to seal off the cavity at the receiver heel.
The quote also does not deal with the numerous issues that have cropped up with the M&P-years after the G21 issues have been dealt with and resolved.
I am not sure why you brought the M&P as it is not the topic at hand. Nevertheless, the early M&P issues were not due to faulty design or of catastrophic failure type.
Just presenting some issues with the Glocks other than 9mm. These problems with the Glock are well known and come from the design. As stated, it was designed around the 9mm and has NOT transitioned well to other calibers.
Also, DocGKR’s statements are more recent corroborating what Vickers says relative to the Glock line.
No gun (or for that matter, anything created by man) is perfect-but I'm personally (as are many others) quite satisfied with the G21, particularly as its evolved.
Best, Jon
If it works for you, run with it.
I really like the G21 SF... I also like the HK USP, but like the simplicity of the Glock better.
I'm 6' tall but I don't have giant hands, yet those two guns with true double stack mags in 45 are more than comfortable enough for me. No need to look for skinny grips.
In my experience (mine and quite a few G21s from friends, lots of rounds fired) it is very reliable, accurate and soft shooting. The early ones sometimes broke extractors early, but apparently it has been fixed.
Coleslaw, to stipulate that the .40 S&W chambered Glocks "blow up" and leave it at that is at best a bit disingenious. I'd tend to argue that in the higher-pressure .40 chamberings, Glocks are within, but closer to their physical limitations and with a smaller margin for error than in other chamberings. With jacketed ammunition within SAAMI specifications it's pretty much a non-issue; however with lead bullets it can easily be disasterous within relatively few rounds sent downrange. I strongly doubt that US law enforcement organizations (who are probably the major consumers of the .40 chambered Glocks-it's my understanding that the G22 currently is the most issued LEO platform in the US), are in the habit of purchasing and issuing a platform that "blows up." However, there have been demonstrated operational issues regarding Gen 3 G22s when some lights have been attached-the Gen4 G22s seem to have resolved those problems.
Umm, the reason that I mentioned the M&P is because it was specifically mentioned in the Gary Roberts' quote that you provided...check the last sentence in the third paragraph of your quote.
While I respect Gary Roberts (especially for his ballistic analysis that he's unstintingly shared), regarding post-2006 Gen 3 G21s (i.e., those with the updated triggerbars) he and I respectfully disagree-and I haven't exactly perceived any flood of LEOs that went to the G21 storming away from it (outside of the Portland OR PD, whose issues at the end of the day were decisively placed on faulty ammunition by the HP White Lab). Unfortunately, DocGKR's comments don't really discuss with any specificity which generation of G21 he's commenting on, or the specific timeframe and G21s his observations pertain to.
There have been sufficient discussions over the past several years on this, and other forums (and elsewhere) (including a current pertinent ongoing thread on the forum here) regarding problems with the M&P line to lead me to think that the problems lay beyond the ken of just materials or manufacturing vicissitudes. While I think the M&P's ergos are very nice, in my mind the platform is still being debugged-and, frankly, if my gun won't operate, shoot accurately, retain magazines et al, that to me as a user IS a "catastrophic failure." I think that the platform undeniably has significant promise, but at this time seems to be a promise best capable of being fulfulled mostly with the addition of aftermarket components and gunsmithing-due to which (other than with my satisfaction with my Glocks) I've voted with my discretionary income to let others be the beta testers.
Best, Jon
I own a Glock 21 SF and really love it. 13 rounds and a 1913 style front pic rail and outstanding reliability for about 549 plus tax. I like the HK45 too, but for a grand a 1911 would be my choice. The S&W M&P 45 is a great gun too, but still a little more expensive than the 21 SF. In my opinion, the Smith is a better value than the HK45, but the Glock 21 SF is a better value than them all. I know alot of people parrot that saying of Glocks are only good in 9mm, but that is BS. I have owned 5 Glocks and they all RUN GREAT regardless of caliber. I will argue that Glock should quit catering to those who must have adjustable backstraps and less recoil and either fix the gen 4 issues or scrap the gen 4 and stick with the tried and true gen 3. For the $500 price range, NO MANUFACTURER CAN COMPETE WITH GLOCK. So the 21 will never disappear. Ever.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=311&pictureid=1620
I realize you've posted a couple more times today in this thread, but come on man; using a single data point to imply characteristics to a larger population isn't really meaningful in any sort of way, but you've taken that even further to just posting a single picture of a single gun without so much as a single word of background information. It means absolutely nothing.
While I respect Gary Roberts (especially for his ballistic analysis that he's unstintingly shared), regarding post-2006 Gen 3 G21s (i.e., those with the updated triggerbars) . . .
And I noted sometime on this board last year that DocGKR spoke of more recent G21s as being pretty nice pistols.
My G21 SF RTF2 is an exceptionally nice pistol, extremely accurate with 230 grain HSTs and just easy to shoot well. So long as the .45 acp is not obsolete, this gun will not be. Now that I mention it . . . ;)
I realize you've posted a couple more times today in this thread, but come on man; using a single data point to imply characteristics to a larger population isn't really meaningful in any sort of way, but you've taken that even further to just posting a single picture of a single gun without so much as a single word of background information. It means absolutely nothing.
Bingo! It could have been a hillbilly reload for all we know.. 90% percent of the pictures we see of blown up glocks could be hot reloads for all we really know. Ive seen a few pics of blown up Hk's too. Every gun is susceptible to this.
Simply saying that "......the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up......" is retarded.. Can we even fathom how many millions of rounds of 40s&w have been shot through Glocks by police forces ,Military testing, FBI, competition shooters across the country since their inception? I guess all of them are ticking timebombs waiting to blow..
I still like this report: http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
Read what happened to the Hk in this test.. I think it just proves that these test are unreliable.. Interesting though.
Code3Patriot
01-31-11, 19:40
I had a HK45 and sold it. I had a M&P45, and sold it. I have a G21SF and I will never get rid of it. I would carry it on duty in a heartbeat if allowed to do so.
The reason I parted with both my HK45 and my M&P45 was their lower capacity, parts availability (HK45) and magazine prices/availability (HK and M&P).
All I needed for G21SF was a Vickers mag release, once I had that the gun was good to go in my book. I'm close to 8k rounds through mine (Glock rail, non ambi mag release) without a single failure.
I'm looking forward to the G21 Gen4 as I think it will put the G21 back in serious .45 contention with H&K and S&W. I've never once for a moment thought the G21 was out of date. Glock realized it was losing ground and tweeked it with the SF revision and now it will be even more stout when the Gen4 hits the market in the near future.
"......the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up......"
All guns blow up if fed improper or unsafe ammo, especially in a caliber (.40S&W) that is spec'd out pretty much right at it's limit from the get go.
Face it... standard .40 caliber ammo, being high pressure and maxed out, is much less forgiving of charge overloads, bullet setback, worn reloaded cases, etc. and a kaboom can, and does, happen with all guns. Nearly all such incidents are generally caused by ammunition issues.
As noted elsewhere, .40 cal Glocks are possibly the most widely used guns in law enforcement in the USA and that wouldn't be the case if they were inherently less safe than other choices.
But if you take a large population of recreational shooters, with a gun that is extremely popular and owned in high numbers, making and shooting .40 cal. reloads of varying quality, (and some shooting lead bullets in barrels not designed to shoot lead), you're going to have some problems. Stick with high quality, well made ammo and such issues are extremely unlikely to happen.
Take any line of guns, none are perfect. Glock has made some changes to address issues along the way and through the generations. The number of Glocks in private and commercial service is staggering. The vast majority are serving their owners very well. Are they perfect? Of course not, no guns are.
Back to the Glock .45s... the current G30/G30SF and G21/G21SF are evolved, reliable, accurate, dependable, hi-capacity (G30: 11 rnds and G21: 14 rnds.) .45acp guns that are very well suited as defense guns for the vast majority of the gun users. HKs, M&Ps, XDs, FNPs, 2011's etc. are all excellent guns, but I don't see their presence getting in the way of Glock .45 popularity. Especially with the Gen 4 Glock .45s coming. The G21/G21SF and G30/G30SF can get the job done well, indeed... if you can.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/Glocks/45ACPDefenseTeam.jpg
And when the Gen 4 Glock .45s hit the marketplace, I think they will pan out to be among the very best choices in .45acp defense guns. Time will tell.
In my not so educated or professional opinion, the G21 will go the way of the Do-Do bird only if Glock lets it. It seems to be the love it or hate it Glock. I was unaware of the issues that the G21 originally had, so call me ignorantly blessed. I have run USP45, HK45, MP45 and G21SF. I currently only own a G21SF with the dreaded ambi mg release and am awaiting the release of the Gen4 G21. The HK's were more accurate than the G21, but the ergos were still crap for me and my teeeeny hands. Cant really reach the DA trigger pull effectively. The LEM is an imprvement there simply cause its a light take up rather than the heavy DA pull. In the end the HK45 went away due to the very HIGH cost of ownership. Great gun with the LEM, but $1100 (after the LEM kit) for the gun and $60 spare mags werent in my budget. The MP I couldnt hit the blind side of a barn with so it went away.
Not sure about the KB's in the G21. Even if he gun was designed around the 9mm. The ACP is a lower pressure round so scaling a gun designed around a 30ksi cartrige to a cartrige running in the 20ksi range would make it more roubst wrt pressure. To be fair though I have felt that the gun out of the box seems undersprung. Cant quantify it, but to me it just doesnt feel right and maybe some of the issues can be attributed to an out of battery detonation. Never gave it much thought as I replace the plastic guide rod with a steel one and run an extra power recoil spring when I do the $.25 trigger jobs. My current one is closing in on 10k rounds and hasnt missed a beat.
TaZ what specific brand spring weight/rod do you install in yours? Thanks.
I have the Hk45 and a G21SF. The Hk45 is my carry gun for air travel, and the G21SF is the truck pistol. As soon as my Sparks leather shows up, the G21SF will be my air travel pistola while the Hk45 goes back to Hk for the LEM trigger package as per TLGreen/LV.
Both are excellent pistolas, with the ergo nod going to the Hk45. The Hk45 and P30s are probably the best Plastik Pistolen out there - but at a price. A G21SF and G30SF pair can be had for about the price of one Hk45, but I like and carry my DW VBOB more. YMMV.
Skyviking
TaZ what specific brand spring weight/rod do you install in yours? Thanks.
I have used the Wolff guide rods with success along with a Wolff 19# spring. My current unit is running with a SpringCo recoil reducer and 19# spring. Not sure if the recoil reducer is worth it as the 21 is a soft shooter, but I fell into it and decided to give it a whirl. No issues so far with any factory ammo or my very old left over plinker reloads.
If you do decide to tinker with the springs and rods make sure you verify function before using it in a defensive role. I wen through a couple hundred self defense rounds before saying the combo was good to go as a carry piece. Not cheap to blow through defensive ammo like that, but well worth the piece of mind.
...Ive seen a few pics of blown up Hk's too. Every gun is susceptible to this.
Yes. Very true. It can happen to ANY gun.
I still like this report: http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
I remember reading that test years ago and I thought it was BS. If I fell from a plane with no parachute, I think I'd have other things on my mind other than the function of my pistol.
Read what happened to the Hk in this test.. I think it just proves that these test are unreliable.. Interesting though.
Very unreliable....
Ok, So I guess that satisfies my question. The glock 21 is not "obsolete" and not going anywhere. But there are more options out there that may or may not suite the needs of more shooters.
With that being said, I'll stick to my HKs. I had a G21SF a year ago, got rid of it and haven't looked back since.
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=311&pictureid=1620
Note to self, ignore every bit of trash this guy posts.
Take that shit back to the playground.
Ok, So I guess that satisfies my question. The glock 21 is not "obsolete" and not going anywhere. But there are more options out there that may or may not suite the needs of more shooters.
With that being said, I'll stick to my HKs. I had a G21SF a year ago, got rid of it and haven't looked back since.
So you started a thread and didn't get the responses you wanted? I can still hear the can you kicked out of disappointment. And thanks for spelling out the fact there are options out there. And "obsolete"? I can't think of any autopistol on the market today that could be considered truly "obsolete". The gun marketers have done a good job of brainwashing people into thinking anything that isn't new as obsolete or passe.
There are a lot of 9mm Glock devotees in this forum. Besides the G21 or G21SF grip being a bit large for some there are a lot of good reasons to go with a G21 for those same people who want a .45 auto. It makes a lot more sense for someone who prefers Glock trigger/shooting characteristics to stick with the same platform instead of going to something completely different.
m1a_scoutguy
02-01-11, 13:20
I dont think it will go away its a great pistol and half the price of the H&K. Besides is a glock and they have a rep thats every bit as good as the other 2 pistols you mentioned.
The NYSP have chosen it as there weapon of choice. You know if you really had a bad boss they would give you the Beretta PX4
Almost correct,,,;) in there infinite "Wisdom" the NYSP choice the 37,:confused: The 45 GAP,,,WTF !!!! So its kinda like Half a 45,,,LOL !!! Maybe some of the Guys carry 21s,,but I know a few State Boys,,and they all have the GAP,,, it is a step up from the 9mm that they carried for years though !!! I don't have one,,but I know the 21 is a great pistol and don't really see it going anywhere.
So you started a thread and didn't get the responses you wanted? I can still hear the can you kicked out of disappointment. And thanks for spelling out the fact there are options out there. And "obsolete"? I can't think of any autopistol on the market today that could be considered truly "obsolete". The gun marketers have done a good job of brainwashing people into thinking anything that isn't new as obsolete or passe.
There are a lot of 9mm Glock devotees in this forum. Besides the G21 or G21SF grip being a bit large for some there are a lot of good reasons to go with a G21 for those same people who want a .45 auto. It makes a lot more sense for someone who prefers Glock trigger/shooting characteristics to stick with the same platform instead of going to something completely different.
Very well put. One of the best responses i have read. I appreciate your post it was done very well i enjoyed reading it, thanks
Most successful pistol platforms have been "stretched" around other calibers. The M&P, CZ75, BHP, Colt's 1911, HK USP, ect...have all been "stretched, pulled, enlarged, and expanded" to one extent or another in attempts to consolidate additional calibers into the fold.
The M&P was designed around the .40 S&W. The USP line is different than the Glock line. The Colt 1911 wasn't 'stretched' to accommodate the 10mm. It is also a steel frame and slide. No one shoots 10mm anyway so it is moot.
The Glock problems are well documented outside the realm of 9mm. The non fully supported chamber does not transition well to the other calibers. I don't know if Glock has corrected that in the G4 or even if the design will allow correction.
As to the Glock being delicate with high pressure ammunition, poppycock! The 9mm standard pressure load hums along at, or about 35,000 psi, while the standard .45 ACP does so at 21,000 psi, up the pressure to +P and the mighty .45 zips along at 23,000 psi, the 9mm at 38,000! In point of fact, we wouldn't even have the 10mm cartridge anymore if not for the unmatched durability of the G20, which is the exact same pistol as the G21.
Uhhhh, no. The search button is your friend. .40 is also a problem.
Has there been issues with the G21's? Yeah, there definitely has been, I had an SF blow up in my face, causing me injury. I wouldn't be truthful in saying that I wasn't soured on them at first. However, it was demonstrated to me conclusively that the ammo was the problem....
That’s the unsupported chamber.
"The 9 mm Glocks (G17/19) are the best, the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up, and the full size .45 (G21) breaks; the Glock 21 is a dog and always has been. It has the reputation as the worst gun Glock makes”.
"Folks wanting a non-1911 .45 ACP pistol are probably best served by a M&P or HK45, not a G21 or Sig P220."
"The bottom line is that G21's have consistently demonstrated too many problems to be considered a hard use combat pistol."
Coleslaw, to stipulate that the .40 S&W chambered Glocks "blow up" and leave it at that is at best a bit disingenious.
That was not my quote, it was Vickers, take it up with him.
I have personally seen my share of .40 Glocks have major failures to include cracked and ruptured frames. Does that mean every one has done that? Of course not, but I have never seen an M&P in its young life do so, nor any HK chambered for that round. Actually, I don't recall hearing of an XD doing so either. Not saying it hasn't happened, just don't recall it.
I'd tend to argue that in the higher-pressure .40 chamberings, Glocks are within, but closer to their physical limitations and with a smaller margin for error than in other chamberings. With jacketed ammunition within SAAMI specifications it's pretty much a non-issue; however with lead bullets it can easily be disasterous within relatively few rounds sent downrange. I strongly doubt that US law enforcement organizations (who are probably the major consumers of the .40 chambered Glocks-it's my understanding that the G22 currently is the most issued LEO platform in the US), are in the habit of purchasing and issuing a platform that "blows up." However, there have been demonstrated operational issues regarding Gen 3 G22s when some lights have been attached-the Gen4 G22s seem to have resolved those problems.
The failures I have seen were with factory ammo, not reloads, no ‘lead bullets’. The numbers of LE that are using the G22, 21 is steadily diminishing as other platforms have come online.
Please don’t shoot the messenger if you don’t like the message. I only picked up on what was said by Roberts and Vickers because I have seen some of the same issues. The only Glocks I would carry are the 9mm - G19 my choice - and I did so for over 20 years.
Umm, the reason that I mentioned the M&P is because it was specifically mentioned in the Gary Roberts' quote that you provided...check the last sentence in the third paragraph of your quote.
The gist of the quote was not focused on the merits of the M&P series nor the HK series, but on the problems with the Glock 21 specifically, as well as the .40 versions.
While I respect Gary Roberts (especially for his ballistic analysis that he's unstintingly shared), regarding post-2006 Gen 3 G21s (i.e., those with the updated triggerbars) he and I respectfully disagree-and I haven't exactly perceived any flood of LEOs that went to the G21 storming away from it (outside of the Portland OR PD, whose issues at the end of the day were decisively placed on faulty ammunition by the HP White Lab). Unfortunately, DocGKR's comments don't really discuss with any specificity which generation of G21 he's commenting on, or the specific timeframe and G21s his observations pertain to.
Does it matter, which generation to this point? The G21 has been out for what, 15 years or so anyway, and has had issues from inception. Perhaps the Gen4 will have corrected the problems.
There have been sufficient discussions over the past several years on this, and other forums (and elsewhere) (including a current pertinent ongoing thread on the forum here) regarding problems with the M&P line to lead me to think that the problems lay beyond the ken of just materials or manufacturing vicissitudes. While I think the M&P's ergos are very nice, in my mind the platform is still being debugged-and, frankly, if my gun won't operate, shoot accurately, retain magazines et al, that to me as a user IS a "catastrophic failure." I think that the platform undeniably has significant promise, but at this time seems to be a promise best capable of being fulfulled mostly with the addition of aftermarket components and gunsmithing-due to which (other than with my satisfaction with my Glocks) I've voted with my discretionary income to let others be the beta testers.
Best, Jon
The major complaint with the M&P has been the trigger. Not that it didn’t work or it broke, it wasn’t palatable to many folks. S&W has corrected that and current examples coming from the factory are acceptable and pretty good. Do Apex parts make it better? Probably, but they are not necessary. Any other minor problems were handled directly by S&W in good order. Allot of what you say is internet driven rhetoric, often by someone that ‘tried’ a piece only to say they liked what the already owned more. Imagine that. Pretty common around here. Aside from some start up issues, I think the M&P is the best ‘bang for the buck’ out there. That is coming from a 20+ year Glock (9mm) user.
So, again, this thread is not about the M&P although you attempted to redirect from the OP’s question. Is the end of the G21 near? I don’t think so, but there are better options available in .45 and .40 from other manufacturers.
Simply saying that "......the .40 S&W ones (G22/G23) blow-up......" is retarded..
Take it up with Vickers.
All guns blow up if fed improper or unsafe ammo, especially in a caliber (.40S&W) that is spec'd out pretty much right at it's limit from the get go.
Face it... standard .40 caliber ammo, being high pressure and maxed out, is much less forgiving of charge overloads, bullet setback, worn reloaded cases, etc. and a kaboom can, and does, happen with all guns. Nearly all such incidents are generally caused by ammunition issues.
And? Tell us something we don’t know. The point is the Glock was not designed for the higher pressure and larger caliber rounds and has not transitioned well to those rounds. That is not supposition, a maybe, a guess, it is well documented. It is a fundamental design issue to include a non fully supported chamber.
Perhaps Glock has gotten a handle on these issues, I don’t know. I have not scrutinized the design enough to even know if it could be modified to correct some of the issues in calibers other than 9mm.
Funny though, you don’t really hear of any “kabooms” with M&P or HK - fully supported chambers - and I gotta believe, the same ammo is being run thru those as a Glock. Glock “kabooms” although not super common, are not rare either. So let’s not make excuses.
As noted elsewhere, .40 cal Glocks are possibly the most widely used guns in law enforcement in the USA and that wouldn't be the case if they were inherently less safe than other choices.
As noted elsewhere, LE is leaving in droves for other newer platforms, funds permitting.
But if you take a large population of recreational shooters, with a gun that is extremely popular and owned in high numbers, making and shooting .40 cal. reloads of varying quality, (and some shooting lead bullets in barrels not designed to shoot lead), you're going to have some problems. Stick with high quality, well made ammo and such issues are extremely unlikely to happen.
Again, this is just regurgitated info everyone is cognizant of.
Take any line of guns, none are perfect. Glock has made some changes to address issues along the way and through the generations. The number of Glocks in private and commercial service is staggering. The vast majority are serving their owners very well. Are they perfect? Of course not, no guns are. But the current G30/G30SF and G21/G21SF are reliable, accurate, dependable hi-capacity (10+1 G30 and 13+1 G21) .45acp guns that are very well suited as defense guns for the vast majority of the gun users. These guns can get the job done well indeed.
And when the Gen 4 Glock .45s hit the marketplace, I think they will pan out to be among the very best choices in .45acp defense guns. Time will tell.
Remains to be seen.
Note to self, ignore every bit of trash this guy posts.
Take that shit back to the playground.
Why the hate Lumpy Lump? I can assure you it wan't a 'playground' for the fellow shooting that 21 . Don't shoot the messenger.................
Why the hate Lumpy Lump? I can assure you it wan't a 'playground' for the fellow shooting that 21 . Don't shoot the messenger.................
Messenger? Refer to my previous post; there was no message, certainly not anything meaningful.
I don't know if Glock has corrected that
Coleslaw: Good point. My understanding is that the chamber support has been increased since earlier generations in the .40 pistols. Perhaps someone who is more aware of the changes Glock has made than you or I can elaborate.
Perhaps Glock has gotten a handle on these issues, I don’t know.
Coleslaw: Good point, you may be spreading stuff that pertains to earlier version models than Gen 3 or 4 and is no longer applicable in mass generalization as you have done. You don't know for sure.
Time passes, changes occur; regurgitating older assessments becomes increasingly inapplicable.
LE is leaving in droves for other newer platforms, funds permitting.
"Droves"? Do you have any specific information on the degree to which this has occurred?
Coleslaw: Lastly, just what is it about the latest generation G21/G21SF Gen 3 that is such a noteworthy problem that would dissuade someone from choosing a G21/G21SF Gen 3 for defense use?
Broadcasting generalizations based on dated comments about dated versions of guns, made by one or two public figures, regardless of their notoriety is irresponsible at best.
The topic is way too big to cast such a generalized umbrella and no individual, no matter who they are, can speak with complete authority for the experience of the greater population. The tale of the blind men, each describing an elephant they observe with their unique experience in touching different parts of the animal applies well in this case.
Coleslaw,
You opinions seem to be purely based on the opinions of LAV and DocGKR. No doubt most of us on this forum respect the opinions of both due to their experience. But at the same time we also temper our opinions with the opinions and experience of other respected individuals as well as our limited experiences/observations. I don't think either LAV or DocGKR would say we should all slavishly follow whatever they say. I also don't think we get a perfect most up to date picture of what their opinions are as they can evolve and change over time. While Glocks in calibers other than 9mm have tended to be a bit more problematic an honest assesment of their record of service should also be considered instead of soley focusing on instances when there have been problems. There are a hell of a lot of LEO's who are issued G22's, G23's, and G21's and have been running them for more than a decade quite happily. Are they "perfect"? No. Are they as "good" as 9mm Glocks? No. But if we were to step back and look at the overall performance of these non-9mm Glocks (at the very least) I just don't think we'd get the kind of bleak picture you seem to broadly paint.
And wasn't LAV involved in someway in getting 1st SFOD-D (formerly Delta) to adopt the G22?
MadcapMagician
02-01-11, 18:28
When talking to some LE Sales reps it seems the 21SF and the G22 Gen4 are the two best selling LE guns currently.
Smith is facing a host of issues to include slide cracks and serious corrosion issues, especially on the .45 models.
Bringing up Glock .40 kabooms is like listening to 90s music.. let it go.
Besides, if the Glock large frames are so crappy, why does ole Hackathorn say the 10mms are the best kept secret of Glock?
Ok, So I guess that satisfies my question. The glock 21 is not "obsolete" and not going anywhere. But there are more options out there that may or may not suite the needs of more shooters.
With that being said, I'll stick to my HKs. I had a G21SF a year ago, got rid of it and haven't looked back since.
So let me get this straight, you created this thread for what reason? To justify your H&K purchase?
Seeing this:
Is it possible that with the HK45/c and the M&P45/c that the Glock 21 will soon be obsolete? Anytime someone asks "what new 45 should I buy because...?" People usually answer "HK45 OR M&P45." I know because I typically answer HK45. I hardly see people suggest a G21.
Was the G21SF not good enough of an improvement? I had a G21SF and got rid of it. I shot well, but I didn't think anything special of it. With that being said, I LOVE my HK45 and really like my M&P 45.
then this:
If you say so, sure. But I say it is NOT better than the HK and/or M&P.
I have to ask why you even started this thread aside from either trashing Glocks (as H&K fanboys do), or justifying your purchase?
The H&K still uses a hammer, something they realized they should go away with (ala P40). If anything, the M&P and G21(sf) are at the front of the 45 auto polymer.
Another thing Glock has is consistency. H&K changes their design every so many years, Glock has essentially the same design it did back in the 80's.
I may add a note: I have no stakes in this battle, as I own none of the above mentioned weapons. I have however seen a huge gap in logic in H&K users, similar to Apple users, which arouses my suspicion.
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6008/casesupport21.th.jpg (http://img835.imageshack.us/i/casesupport21.jpg/)
Glock kabooms are old as dirt. I recently saw a Ruger single action gun the entire upper gone i assume double charge. Too many kabooms are not anything at all wrong with the gun its operator error not just in Glocks.
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6008/casesupport21.th.jpg (http://img835.imageshack.us/i/casesupport21.jpg/)
deeHKman.... thank you for providing that photo of the Glock chambers. Clearly Glock has increased the chamber support, to a point similar to that of another well respected barrel, the Lone Wolf barrel. Unfortunately, old opinions die hard, even in the face of new experience.
For what little it may be worth... I have fired more than 2000 rounds through my Gen3 G21SF with no failures of any kind. 185 gr & 230 gr ball and JHP, even a friends "hot" loads. I'm not a LEO or military, just a civilian who owns guns and likes to shoot.
The G21 seems GTG to me, I hope it stays around. :D
deeHKman.... thank you for providing that photo of the Glock chambers. Clearly Glock has increased the chamber support, to a point similar to that of another well respected barrel, the Lone Wolf barrel. Unfortunately, old opinions die hard, even in the face of new experience.
You are most welcome. I have spent my entire career doing Q/C, Reliability Testing and Lab. So when i see the same ole' gossip makes me wonder who is behind the trigger. I have a L/W barrel for my G20 just for heavy lead Hardcast. The same pics could be shown there also. Both barrels are well supported in 10mm. Too bad i cannot remember where i saw the Ruger double charge kaboom it was total destruction even the top strap ripped apart. Glocks, the user fairs much better when such happens to them. Thanks
Coleslaw: Good point. My understanding is that the chamber support has been increased since earlier generations in the .40 pistols. Perhaps someone who is more aware of the changes Glock has made than you or I can elaborate.
It appears it has been addressed to some degree. Time will tell how successful they were.
Coleslaw: Good point, you may be spreading stuff that pertains to earlier version models than Gen 3 or 4 and is no longer applicable in mass generalization as you have done. You don't know for sure.
I will refer to my quote from my last post:
"I have personally seen my share of .40 Glocks have major failures to include cracked and ruptured frames."
Time passes, changes occur; regurgitating older assessments becomes increasingly inapplicable.
I will refer to the photo I posted, not a Gen 1 or 2. That leaves one incarnation, you got it, a Gen3
"Droves"? Do you have any specific information on the degree to which this has occurred?
Search is available to all.
Coleslaw: Lastly, just what is it about the latest generation G21/G21SF Gen 3 that is such a noteworthy problem that would dissuade someone from choosing a G21/G21SF Gen 3 for defense use?
See photo. Just something to think about.
Lastly, most gun owners actually shoot very little. I would say the participants on this forum are at the upper echelon of users. If you do decide the 21/22 is the route for you, at a minimum use decent ammo. So, most could get by with the 21, IF you have hands like Lew Alcindor. That alone should be enough to dissuade 99% of people irrespective of how much they like Glocks. Anyone saying otherwise is not being completely candid. The 21 and 21SF are very large weapons. That being said, in reality a good amount of folks could not handle the pistol properly.
The problems the 21, 22, and their derivatives have had are not some fairy tail. I don't know if Glock was able to correct those issues with the Gen 4. That remains to be seen. They should be available soon.
Coleslaw,
You opinions seem to be purely based on the opinions of LAV and DocGKR. No doubt most of us on this forum respect the opinions of both due to their experience. But at the same time we also temper our opinions with the opinions and experience of other respected individuals as well as our limited experiences/observations. I don't think either LAV or DocGKR would say we should all slavishly follow whatever they say.
Ian111, prior to chiming in, I would suggest you read a complete post so as to understand the content. From my previous post:
“I have personally seen my share of .40 Glocks have major failures to include cracked and ruptured frames.”
“I only picked up on what was said by Roberts and Vickers because I have seen some of the same issues”
I want to get something clear, I am not saying this couldn’t happen to another maker’s stuff, but there has been a preponderance of this happening to large caliber Glocks over the years, but it is rare from most other makers. Some have stated the Glock problems have been addressed. Time will tell if that is the case.
I want to get something clear.
Yes, unfortuneately you are so full of shit, thats likely to never work out for you....:thank_you2:
Not sure why all the discussion about the 40 cal KB's seems to have cropped up cause I thought that this thread was about the 45ACP Glock 21. Maybe I am dense, but I just don't see the correlation, if there was one could easily counter with well the 9mm have been great guns therefore the 45 must also be such. Just not a good way to draw a conclusion, at least not IMO.
I have seen many references to repeated G21 issues that have gone unadressed by Glock, yet when queried about specifics the answer has aLways been search is your friend. That isn't how things work. You are claiming to be stating facts, so it's your responsibility to provide the documentation for that statement. Same thing with the picture. One picture of a blown up G21 with no specifics what so ever. How do we know it wasn't a double charge or bad ammo, fouled barrel, act of God or whatever... I am pretty open minded to facts, so if there are facts out the please supply them.
Agreed. His comments carry no weight with no substantiation provided. Time to step over this poop pile and move on.
Coleslaw, you really need to get over yourself. Your beloved M&P's aren't the epitome of reliabilty either. In fact, they are towards the bottom of my list, from first hand experience and second hand from friends who are issued them, for a "serious use" weapon.
I'm starting to think that you just like to type. :rolleyes:
Just read this quote by DocGKR on another thread. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72951
However, for the majority of folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they are far better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45c, or even a G21sf.
I also don't necessarily interpret that to mean a 1911 is the best .45 auto choice even if someone could afford a "good 1911" as well. There's a lot more to running a 1911 than merely being able to own it. And if you're currently running either a Glock 9mm or an M&P .40 a Glock 21SF or M&P .45 respectively might make a lot more sense. I hope that's a fair assesment of the above statement.
Agreed. His comments carry no weight with no substantiation provided. Time to step over this poop pile and move on.
I agree with his rambling. Some believe everything they read on the internet or hear someone's fathers Uncle who's friend he knows that they know had a Glock kaboom. Plus we in Greenville County use the G21sf. I see no major problems as he reads /hears. I posted the pics of Glocks chamber support for the likes of him to see that .40 Glocks and all have more than adqueate chamber support. Want more support then a revolver should be considered. There is a difference a kaboom and a case rupture he needs to understand his terminology. Many over use brass pushing their luck to save a dime risking case rupture in any gun,
Coleslaw, you really need to get over yourself. Your beloved M&P's aren't the epitome of reliabilty either. In fact, they are towards the bottom of my list, from first hand experience and second hand from friends who are issued them, for a "serious use" weapon.
I'm starting to think that you just like to type. :rolleyes:
The M&P had many more failures then Glock on the fairly recent testing done on Glock, M&P and the last Sig. There are people of this juvenile mindset on all forums. All recognize that rather quickly.
Just read this quote by DocGKR on another thread. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72951
I also don't necessarily interpret that to mean a 1911 is the best .45 auto choice even if someone could afford a "good 1911" as well. There's a lot more to running a 1911 than merely being able to own it. And if you're currently running either a Glock 9mm or an M&P .40 a Glock 21SF or M&P .45 respectively might make a lot more sense. I hope that's a fair assesment of the above statement.
Completely agree. Very well put. Just not an opinion but a factual statement.
WTF is going on around here lately? Come on guys...
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