View Full Version : Nosedive jams w/my "new" Kahr PM9
Well, against my better judgment, and the advice of lots of M4 members, I purchased a LNIB PM9. It's the stainless model, and I got it and a crossbreed mini-tuck for $525.00. The original owner only had it for a couple of months (serial #IC26**). He said he was selling it because he bought a Kahr p380 for CC instead. I met the guy at a local range and test fired two magazines without any stoppages. I was immediately impressed and made the deal. I also saw the guy's p380 and felt he was on the level. I figured he might be having issues, but suspected the gun just needs to be broken in.
I brought the gun home, took it apart and gave it a good cleaning and lube. Saturday, I bought 350 rounds of ammo (150 monarch brass fmj, 150 steel fmj and 50 WWB JHP) and went to the range. I should have taken a note pad to document each stoppage, but didn't want to jinx myself. I'll take one next time. Anyway, I had eight to twelve "nosedive" jams, a couple of instances where the slide failed to lock back and a couple of instances where the slide closed without chambering a round.
After researching this on the net, it seems that "nosedives" can be caused by lots of things (recoil spring, limp wrist, dirty gun, weak ammo, bad magazines) and I'm wondering where to start troubleshooting. FWIW, the jams happened with both magazines. I think it's worth noting that the jams were always the second or third bullet in the mag. (e.g. chamber first round with slide stop release, jam on subsequent round) I didn't notice any other patterns regarding the stoppages.
Kind of like falling in love with the stripper you never should have dated, I've fallen for this little gun. Yes, the trigger pull is long, but it's as smooth as butter. What really impressed me about this gun is the accuracy! This little gun shoots like a big gun. I was making head shots all day long at 7 yards, and shot circles around my 442 airweight and KT P32, with which I can only make center mass shots. After shooting 350 rounds with the Kahr, my hand and wrist were both fine. My hand would be numb, or in a cast, if I tried that with my airweight.
I'm willing to put in the work to make this Kahr reliable, and would appreciate advice on where to start troubleshooting.
Is it too late to trade it for a Walther PPS?
First, make sure the pistol and magazines are assembled correctly.
Make sure the recoil spring is not installed backwards, the smaller diameter "tighter" coil goes on the rod first.
Take the mags apart and make sure the mag springs are in correctly.
That's be the first two things I'd look at with a used pistol like the Kahr or Sigs which don't have captured recoil springs.
While trouble shooting I'd stick to USA manufactured brass ammo like the Winchester value pack.
Another thing, throw the 7 round mag in the trash, they are notorious for malfunctioning due to your finger applying pressure to the bottom of the mag which changes the feed angle.
If you are having nose dives, I would suspect there is a feed ramp problem. Try to rapid fire (with a stiff wrist) a 50rd. box of WWB FMJ next time you go to the range. In the mean time, safety the weapon and slowly rack the slide while pressing it into the frame. It should be smooth throughout the cycle. It could be hanging up somewhere. The WWB should be hot enough to cycle the slide while shooting. It is the one factory ammo I have never had trouble with.
If it turns out to magazine problems, Buds Gun Shop has had the best prices I've found on factory Kahr mags. Unfortunately, they vary from what models / calibers depending on what they have on hand.
The problem I had with the 7 rounds mags was related to the much longer magazine spring. It places a huge amount of tension on the rounds in the magazine. Never had a problem with the 6 rounds mags.
I don't know what you mean by nose dive jams, but I suspect it is a fail to go into battery. When the gun did this to me, slight thumb pressure on the back of the slide would send it home.
Either way, I never liked the 7 round mags. Jams aside, they always pinched my fingers where it meets the grip.
Had one PM9 do this, sent it to Kahr. They shipped another out. Same thing. They finally shipped me a MK9 that was without issues but still never trusted it. My advice is to try to shoot any +P brassed cased FMJ ammo out of it and see if the issue goes away. Good luck.
I checked the recoil/mag springs and they're installed correctly. I guess I'll polish the feed ramp and try a box of my Speer +P.
Is there anything I can do to loosen the recoil spring?
Does anyone know when the Sig P290 is being released? Maybe I'll take one for the team and give it a try.
I'd hit the range with Winchester white box and see how it shoots.
Your problem may have been with the Monarch ammo.
I shoot a lot of Monarch, but it does tend to be a bit weak, same with the Monarch steel.
I have a Wolff +10% recoil spring and my PM9 eats all the "value pack" rounds with no issue.
I chrono'd Win white box through my PM9 today and was getting 1032fps average with very little deviation, Black Hills Tac XP +P 115gr HP ammo was running 1071fps, so the white box is not weak ammo.
Try doing this prep:
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=1521
Also, Kahrs have tight tolerances and need to be run (very) wet. Lube diagram here:
http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=308
Bests
"Also, Kahrs have tight tolerances and need to be run (very) wet. Lube diagram here:"
A wonderful characteristic of a defense/carry gun.
Maybe maybe not. Mines been running fine, and its not dripping wet. I do use TW25 though, so it stay put.
Did I miss the memo? It appears to be Kahr bashing month.
Bob
I have a Kahr K40 and an MK40. I have never had a malfunction in either of them. I never trusted the P series Kahrs.
Did I miss the memo? It appears to be Kahr bashing month.
Bob
Bob,
In my original post, I sang the praises for the Kahr's trigger and accuracy. I really like this gun and want it to work, but I'm having jamming issues. This nose-dive issue has nothing to do with the pistol being wet enough. I cleaned and lubed the pistol prior to my range session. I even stripped the gun during my outing and lubed the rails and cleaned the feed ramp.
I didn't start this thread to bash my purchase. Rather, I hope that someone will offer advice or tips to cure the issue.
If I can't fix it, I'll be happy to sell it to you, if you're interested.
My brand new PM9 went back to Kahr twice. After the first trip, the FTF issue recurred and their "fix" was to have me download the mags. I told them I bought a 6+1 pistol and I would keep sending it back until they could make it work properly with one in the pipe and a full mag. I guess the thought of incurring multiple overnight charges finally sank in. When it came back the second time, it worked fine.
One other note - it likes any round nose FMJ, even the AL cased stuff. For SD rounds it feeds Speer gold dot or Ranger RA9T. The Fed HST rounds don't feed well at all.
LMT,
Not directed at you, but there seems to be about 3 threads now, where people are taking shots at the company.
Interestingly, usually one is asked to contact the manufacturer before posting issues with a gun. I know you are only asking for advice, but it seems some are taking the opportunity. People routinely spend 4 digits on 1911's, and have similar issues, but shrug them off:confused:
As others have noted, try it with quality ball and duty ammo, not white/red/yellow box stuff. If after 2-300 rounds, your problem is not fixed, make the company fix it, or refund your money.
I'm not sure what you mean by jam, so I cant help you. I do know, on mine, the small nut at the end of the guide rod, had worked itself off. When I replaced it, I started to have intermittent failure to return to battery. I had installed the nut backwards, removing and installing properly has resulted in about 2-300 problem free rounds, mostly Winchester NATO, 147 Ranger, 127+P+, HST and Gold dot.
Bob
"Also, Kahrs have tight tolerances and need to be run (very) wet. Lube diagram here:"
A wonderful characteristic of a defense/carry gun.
I lube mine the same way I do my Glocks and H&K's.
1 very small drop on each of the following: barrel, barrel hood, slide rails, trigger bar.
Haven't had a single hiccup in 1000+ rounds of any and all ammo including the cheap stuff.
Maybe mines defective?
:rolleyes:
LMT,
Not directed at you, but there seems to be about 3 threads now, where people are taking shots at the company.
Interestingly, usually one is asked to contact the manufacturer before posting issues with a gun. I know you are only asking for advice, but it seems some are taking the opportunity.
Bob
Hmmm... I think Bob is on to something. ;)
What you described sounds like the gun is "short stroking" or out running the mag spring's ability to raise the rounds fast enough.
Possibilities I have seen: It could be a recoil spring that needs more breaking in, a gun that is a bit tight, weak ammo or binding in the fully loaded mags.
Also, if not short stroking it could be an extractor that catches the rim of the case either because it has a sharp bottom edge or the tension is too great.
I have seen all of these things cause nose dive malfunctions in various guns.
What you described sounds like the gun is "short stroking" or out running the mag spring's ability to raise the rounds fast enough.
Possibilities I have seen: It could be a recoil spring that needs more breaking in, a gun that is a bit tight, weak ammo or binding in the fully loaded mags.
Also, if not short stroking it could be an extractor that catches the rim of the case either because it has a sharp bottom edge or the tension is too great.
I have seen all of these things cause nose dive malfunctions in various guns.
Replacing the mag springs wouldn't be a bad idea either. Do you have any idea how many rounds the original owner fired through the gun and the condition of the mag springs?
The PM9 should run great... most do, including mine. But if yours isn't, don't fear, it can get sorted out. Don't give up in haste... which a lot of gun owners do when they have "issues". I did that years ago with my first Springfield Loaded which didn't run right. In hindsight I'm sure an extractor tweak on that gun would have solved the problems with it, but I hastily traded it back to the dealer. Let Kahr make it right if need be.
"I checked the recoil/mag springs and they're installed correctly. I guess I'll polish the feed ramp and try a box of my Speer +P.
Is there anything I can do to loosen the recoil spring?"
Check out this posters thread on reducing his recoil spring.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=66659
Just a little FYI....I found these links on the Kahr website...
http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9-Black.asp
Check out the link above...go to the downloads tab and click on Take Down Video. Doesn't really addess your problem but it is a useful link anyway.
PatrolRifleGroup
01-31-11, 06:38
At one time I owned a PM9 which had been sent to Cylinder & Slide for a custom tuning package. That gun ran & ate anything. In the time that I owned, I never had one FTF or FTE. I really attribute to Cylinder and Slide's work. The only reason I even sold the gun, was because I always defaulted to my G19.
Cyclinder and Slide's prices can get kind of crazy. For the PM9, they have three package levels. While you get some nice features with the highest package, everything you need for reliability can be found in package 1:
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=prodshow&ref=912&sid=8u9k1636kj69rz38ta95b1805wui43hj
I say, if you like the gun that much, spend a bit more and be really happy.
Couple of thoughts... will try not repeat what others said.
Did you disassemble the extractor. The pin is sloped and if it rotated on you when you reassembled, then the extractor may have too much pressure. This will retard the slide enough to throw things off.
Wolf makes a +10% recoil spring. Some folks on the Kahr Talk forum swear by 'em. Next time I replace recoil springs on my PM9, I have some I intend to try.
Try taking out the barrel & recoil spring and manipulating the slide. Any rough spots or drags?
OK.. I will repeat one thing. TW25 grease is recommended.
Yep, seem to be a lot of Kahr bashing threads. Not sure what week it is sometimes...Kahr bashing week or Glock is KING week!! LOL!!
The last three Pm's I have purchased have all been used and being sold by guys that said they were junk and kept jamming. Ironicly, all three of them have not had a single issue from me. I have fired literally thousands of rounds through them without a single hiccup.
These little guns are very susceptible to any deviation from good shooting form. I am not saying this is th OP's problem but I have seen it many times with these small handguns. As an example....One day a friend was over doing some shooting with me and he hated my PM45 because he could not get it to cycle. I would empty the magize and ask him what is the problem? He just could not get it to shoot. He and I have been shooting together for over 30 years.
Stick with it and I hope you get any issues worked out as the Kahr is a very good gun.
WW
Something I do on every semi pistol I purchase, especially if it is known to have cycling issues is to number one: disassemble and inspect for any burrs or high spots that may cause a bind. Two: I, after being satisfied the slide function is smooth, I will turn on a good TV show or put in a movie, safety the weapon, and rack the slide (not abusively, but complete cycles) 5 to 800 times, even if it feels loose. It can be expensive to break a gun in by shooting it, so I like to loosen it up in my recliner. I am not saying this is the problem, but I general never have any issues with any of my pistols. My last purchase was a Colt GCT that felt snug, and I cycled it about 500 times while watching "Tombstone". I had no failures of any kind. The tolerances on some of the Kahrs are so tight that the slightest lift on the slide during the shooting cycle, along with the new, tight spring, is just enough to keep a full cycle from occuring. I don't advocate the practice, but as I say, I generally never have cycle problems, even with guns known to have them. If nothing else, it wont hurt anything.
The first pistol I did this with was a Bersa 380 that would not cycle for anything. A few touches with an emery board and a movie's worth of hand racking, and it never had another feed issue.
I've been manually cycling the slide 20-40 times a day. I've even kept the slide locked open the last few days, although, I don't know if this will help loosen the recoil spring.
Friday evening, I'm going to shoot 50 rounds of 124 gr. Speer GD +p and make sure I keep my wrist firm. That's all I'm going to shoot to ensure I don't get tired and limp-wrist it. If I don't have any jams, we'll know it was a user or cheap ammo issue.
Regardless of how it comes out, I'm not sure if I trust these magazines. If you own or have owned a PM9, or perhaps any Kahr, you know what I'm talking about. I'd love to see a picture of a loaded PPS magazine to see how the top rounds lay.
This guy gets to the meat of the problem at min. 1:45 in the video. My mags behave the same way, with the top two rounds being very loose. Do all single stack 9mm magazines have this issue?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm2-L2_v3cc
Note: I don't agree with the guy in the video on a lot of issues (especially carrying w/empty chamber). I only posted it to show what happens to the top two or three rounds in the magazine (easier than taking pics and uploading). I'm concerned it could lead to a feed issue.
When you insert the rounds push them towards the spine of the magazine until you hear/feel them "click" into place.
When you insert the rounds push them towards the spine of the magazine until you hear/feel them "click" into place.
That's how I load the mags, but if I push the first round out with my thumb, the next round is laying flat. Perhaps this is a non-issue when the mag is in the gun. However, this would make sense as to why I was only having feeding issues on the second or third round.
That's how I load the mags, but if I push the first round out with my thumb, the next round is laying flat. Perhaps this is a non-issue when the mag is in the gun. However, this would make sense as to why I was only having feeding issues on the second or third round.
The slide will slightly compress the top round of the magazine while it's inserted.
As the slide retracts friction will help pop the nose of the round up.
My guess is weak Monarch ammo "short stroking" was your problem.
LMT - what does Kahr have to say about the issue? The one time I had to contact them, they bent over backwards to make sure I was happy - to the point of shipping me multiple free magazines to replace one that was questionable. Maybe a call in the AM would do some good?
Best of luck, and keep us updated.
Regards,
Kevin
GhostOfWar
02-03-11, 21:36
I believe your problems are due to the ammo. I did the same thing with my Kahr. I bought it and then put a couple of boxes of Monarch through it. I started having some issues, so I packed it up and took it home. After some research on the web I found that most Kahr owners suggest that the gun be clean and well lubed. I took it apart and found that the Monarch junk was some extremely dirty ammo. The build up in the gun was not just nasty, but it was sticky. Looking at the feed ramp, it was obvious that the nose dives were caused by the heavy build up.
Ever since, I always make sure the gun is clean, but most importantly that the feed ramp is clean. Like mirror finish type clean. I also shoot better ammo through it now. Mostly Speer Lawmen. Now I never have an issue. If you haven't given it a really thorough cleaning, try that, and switch to some cleaner ammo. I'm no gunsmith, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.
LMT42:
If the magazine springs were weak, I would expect that they would tend to induce feed failures when they are close to empty rather than when nearly full.
Does the slide stop engage when the magazine is empty?
If not, there are several possible reasons. Most of them have been mentioned.
Do you think its possible that the recoil spring is stacking solid during recoil and shortening slide's the travel?
Assemble the pistol without the recoil spring.
Draw the slide back as far as it will go and hold it there. Take a look into the ejection port to note the distance between bottom of the breech face and the back edge of the magazine channel.
Try the same experiment with the gun fully assembled and see if that distance is noticeably shorter.
You might consider getting a new recoil spring. I'd then try modifying the original spring by removing 1/4 or 1/2 a coil at a time from the muzzle end of the spring. It shouldn't take much. It sounds like it is almost running now.
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