Is there any practical reason to have a 6.5/6.8 bolt rifle?

[wild_wild_wes]

Since the 6.5 and 6.8 rounds fall in between the 5.56 and 7.62 rounds in terms of energy, is there any practical reason to choose one of the sixes for use in a bolt action precision rifle:?

[Robb Jensen]

6.5mms in general (not just Grendels) have very good ballistic coefficients and very good inherent accuracy. If you're not reloading then .308 in a bolt gun makes much more since for your wallet.

[wild_wild_wes]

I have a Ruger M77VLE in .308 which I bought to learn precision shooting, before I heard about the Rem700. It shoots real well, sub-MOA at 100 yards...except for the first round, which it is liable to toss an inch or more out from the rest of the group. So basically I wanted to know if I should stick to the .308 for my next serious gun (I want to use it for a 1000 yard Tactical match), or get one of the sixes instead.

[Robb Jensen]

I have a Ruger M77VLE in .308 which I bought to learn precision shooting, before I heard about the Rem700. It shoots real well, sub-MOA at 100 yards...except for the first round, which it is liable to toss an inch or more out from the rest of the group. So basically I wanted to know if I should stick to the .308 for my next serious gun (I want to use it for a 1000 yard Tactical match), or get one of the sixes instead.

I'd stick with what you have. The 6.5mms really shine at long distances but if you already have a rifle capable of 1000yds you're good to go with some 175gr BH red box loads you'll do well.

[Gunfighter13]

I have a Ruger M77VLE in .308 which I bought to learn precision shooting, before I heard about the Rem700. It shoots real well, sub-MOA at 100 yards...except for the first round, which it is liable to toss an inch or more out from the rest of the group. So basically I wanted to know if I should stick to the .308 for my next serious gun (I want to use it for a 1000 yard Tactical match), or get one of the sixes instead.


With good Glass (S&B, Leupold, etc) and Good ammo (Black hills, Federal Match, etc) you should be OK. One thing I would recommend is to have the gun re-bedded. May improve your groups.

[wild_wild_wes]

That's the thing, gunfighter. The glass I have on it now is a Shepherd Scope. On a Ruger M77. So, you see what I mean by my thinking about "starting over".

[Alpha Sierra]

I have a Ruger M77VLE in .308 which I bought to learn precision shooting, before I heard about the Rem700. It shoots real well, sub-MOA at 100 yards...except for the first round, which it is liable to toss an inch or more out from the rest of the group. So basically I wanted to know if I should stick to the .308 for my next serious gun (I want to use it for a 1000 yard Tactical match), or get one of the sixes instead.

Your problem has nothing to do with the caliber of your rifle. It has a lot to do with the quality (or lack thereof) of your rifle.

[Alpha Sierra]

Since the 6.5 and 6.8 rounds fall in between the 5.56 and 7.62 rounds in terms of energy, is there any practical reason to choose one of the sixes for use in a bolt action precision rifle:?
Which 6.5 are you talking about?

6.5 Grendel is a weakling.

260 Remington leaves the 308 for dead all the way to 1000.

6.5-284 leaves the 260 Remington for dead.

You might want to also master shooting at intermediate distances (300 to 600 yards) before dreaming about 1000.

[wild_wild_wes]

A boy can dream, can't he? :)

[Gunfighter13]

That's the thing, gunfighter. The glass I have on it now is a Shepherd Scope. On a Ruger M77. So, you see what I mean by my thinking about "starting over".

I hear ya. Here is a basic gun.

Remington 700P .308 or 300 WIN MAG (old school)
Leupold Mark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR/T M1 Illum. Reticle
AI 1.5 stock w/bi-pod
Badger rings and base

About $3200.00


EDIT: you could always look at this.
http://demigodllc.com/photo/CGMG-2006.11-misc/small/D100_3199_img.jpg
Accuracy International 338 Lapua Magnum w/can

[HolyRoller]

You might want to also master shooting at intermediate distances (300 to 600 yards) before dreaming about 1000.
So you have to get a Master classification card in XTC HP before you "dream" about 1000? When I was only a Marksman in HP, I took home a wooden dollar for the first X at 900--which was the very first shot I ever tried at 900. Too bad my 75 AMAXes start keyholing at 1000 so no amount of dreaming or mastery will help me there.

W.W. Wes, you may have more enthusiasm than knowledge or wisdom yet, but you get those last two by going and doing. Sight in at as long a distance as you have, then find a long-range or F-class match. Standard come-ups should get you on paper. Keep good notes and keep shooting and learning. Yeah, it HELPS to start small, but never pass up a chance to SHOOT at long range.

There are better places to ask about "long range dreams." This is, after all, M4Carbine.net, and carbines are by definition not optimum for long range. Try www.nationalmatch.us, www.long-range.com, www.snipercentral.com, and that last one will also show you how you can rig up a precision rifle, optics and all, for less than 1k.

[wild_wild_wes]

I shot expert in the Marines using an M-16A1 out to 500 yards; with a good rifle and scope I hope to double that!

There is a range nearby that shoots a 1000 yard tactical match; I've observed at one, but don't have that much confidence in my rifle/scope combo.

[Alpha Sierra]

So you have to get a Master classification card in XTC HP before you "dream" about 1000? .

No. That's one way to "master" the discipline, but not the only one. You basically said what I was leading to.

[Gunfighter13]

I shot expert in the Marines using an M-16A1 out to 500 yards; with a good rifle and scope I hope to double that!

I to have a low grade gun that groups well (5 to 6 inch) at 1000 yards. But my more expensive gun systems do it better. I really think that you should try and get the best system you can afford. You will see better results and spend less money in the long run. If you are a LEO team member you may never have to shoot at 1000 yards but knowing how will decrease the error at the shorter ranges.

The one question that needs an answer is NO 6.5 forget it. The only viable calibers to look at are .308, 300 WIN MAG, 338 Lapua Magnum and 50 BMG.

Here is a few better links to ask questions at.

http://www.snipershide.com/

http://www.ntoa.org/

http://www.ttpoa.org/default.aspx

[Alpha Sierra]

Deleted. Not worth it here.

[Matt in AZ]

Since the 6.5 and 6.8 rounds fall in between the 5.56 and 7.62 rounds in terms of energy, is there any practical reason to choose one of the sixes for use in a bolt action precision rifle:?

No.

My assumption is that you are inquiring about the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC specifically. Both cartridges are confined to the magwell limitations of the AR-15 platform. I can't predict any need to "transfer" that limitation to your bolt rifle.

In most general terms, I generally support the cartridge variants for the AR-15 (6.5, 6.8, .50B, SOCOM, et al).

This response is late, and I understand that you have received sound advice from Gunfighter13 and Alpha Sierra.

[wild_wild_wes]

Right, I was specifically inquiring about the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC.

The great benefit of one of these cartidges, I had speculated, was that they both have very mild recoil, compared to the .308...though I was not sure if that made any difference in this application, except possibly faster follow-on shots.

[Alpha Sierra]

The great benefit of one of these cartidges, I had speculated, was that they both have very mild recoil, compared to the .308...though I was not sure if that made any difference in this application, except possibly faster follow-on shots.

They do have milder recoil. The problem is that it is too mild. They simply have no power compared to cartridges based on the 308 Winchester parent case.

The 260 Remington (a 308 necked down to take a 6.5 mm bullet) has much less recoil than a 308 loaded with 175s, and simply blows it away ballistically when shooting a Lapua Scenar 139 (ballistic coefficient of .610) or Sierra Match King 142 (ballistic coefficient of .58) at 2800 fps. The 6.5 Grendel simply cannot match those ballistics. Ever.

I have shot both the 260 Rem and the 308 Winchester extensively in competition to 1000 yards. Those who say the large capacity 6.5s (260 Remington, 6.5X55, 6.5-284) do not belong in long range shooting simply do not know what they are talking about.

[Keith E.]

There is a range nearby that shoots a 1000 yard tactical match; I've observed at one, but don't have that much confidence in my rifle/scope combo.


Wes just get out there and try it one time. I think you'll be hooked, not to mention having a ball.

Keith.

[Alpha Sierra]

Wes just get out there and try it one time. I think you'll be hooked, not to mention having a ball.

Keith.

He should do some homework before "just trying it".

At a MINIMUM, he must know his trajectory to the expected target distance.

That means working up a load that will remain supersonic to the expected distance, which requires knowing the muzzle velocity of the chosen load. Then applying that info to a ballistics calculator to determine trajectory every 100 yards (every 50 if the targets are at unknown distances). Finally, the rifle must be zeroed at an appropriate distance using the longest range available.

Not doing that is a recipe for disaster. At my club shooters have three shots to find paper at 600 yards (our max distance). Three clean misses and you get pulled off the line. We can't afford bullets going somewhere unknown, and I don't know anyone in the eastern US that can.

[wild_wild_wes]

My super fantastic Shepherd Scope has BDC aim marks for each 100 yard increment, out to 1000 yards. They trajectory numbers seem to match the Black Hills ammo I'm using out to 300 yards (the farthest I've shot it so far).

[Alpha Sierra]

My super fantastic Shepherd Scope has BDC aim marks for each 100 yard increment, out to 1000 yards. They trajectory numbers seem to match the Black Hills ammo I'm using out to 300 yards (the farthest I've shot it so far).

Then chances are you might be just fine. If you live in Ohio or Indiana and need more tips on places to shoot mid and long range, just ask.

[Keith E.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith E.
Wes just get out there and try it one time. I think you'll be hooked, not to mention having a ball.

Keith.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra

He should do some homework before "just trying it".

At a MINIMUM, he must know his trajectory to the expected target distance.

That means working up a load that will remain supersonic to the expected distance, which requires knowing the muzzle velocity of the chosen load. Then applying that info to a ballistics calculator to determine trajectory every 100 yards (every 50 if the targets are at unknown distances). Finally, the rifle must be zeroed at an appropriate distance using the longest range available.

Not doing that is a recipe for disaster. At my club shooters have three shots to find paper at 600 yards (our max distance). Three clean misses and you get pulled off the line. We can't afford bullets going somewhere unknown, and I don't know anyone in the eastern US that can.


Wes unless you just happen to stumble into a nest of uptight buttheads you'll have plenty of help from fellow shooters at a match. Normal decent folks won't just leave you hung out to dry. Grab your gear, head out, and ask a lot of questions. You should be pleasantly surprised at the number of folks willing to help you out even to the point of using their equipment if yours is not properly set up.

Again, "Wes just get out there and try it one time." You may be the shy type though and for that I'd suggest going out to a match, offering assistance as range help. Let the folks there know that you are interested in shooting a match such as theirs and see where it goes from there.

Best of Luck,
Keith

[QuietShootr]

Then chances are you might be just fine. If you live in Ohio or Indiana and need more tips on places to shoot mid and long range, just ask.

Come to a 1000 yard F-class match at Atterbury sometime.

[Alpha Sierra]

Come to a 1000 yard F-class match at Atterbury sometime.

I'll be there for the state LR championship at the end of the month. But I do not do F class. I do slings and irons even on any/any matches.

[wild_wild_wes]

My shooting club had a "Tactical precision" clinic yesterday and I took advantage of it. We shot at 200, 300, 500, 600, 800, 900, and 1000 yards. I managed to get good groups all the way out to 1000, but the BDC on the Shephard scope started to deviate past 500 yards and by the time I got out to 1000 I was using 18" of hold-over; basically, I was aiming at the head to get my shots center mass into the scoring rings, and I had never shot past 500 yards before yesterday.

The rifle shot okay but I was definitly let down by the scope. Windage and elevation adjustments were by tiny ridged tweakers on top of turrets that you had to twist with your fingernails, LOL. Since it was very windy and the wind was constantly shifting in direction, I gave up on that and used offset aim points. Since the BDC was also off, I was using Kentucky windage AND elevation at the same time!

I am satisfied though; I now have a target with pasties in the scoring ring marked "1000". Some of the students never got hits past 600 yards and were pulled off the line. The guy who I was pulling butts for was a cop shooting a M-14; he was using 168 grain rounds and like magic at 1000 yards any of his bullets that hit the taget were going SIDEWAYS!

[HolyRoller]

Heh heh, you're hooked! It will NEVER go away.

Pulling butts?? Sounds like a personal thing.:p We call it pulling pits around here, but I suppose if you're VERY secure, you can say pulling butts.

Looks like not everybody has gotten the memo about 168s, which is, they're okeydoke at 600 but out to lunch past 800. Now you won't make the same mistake. Also you now know about BDCs not necessarily being an example of truth in advertising. They're valid for only one load and a small range of atmospheric conditions; depend on them at your peril. Work up your own dope and prosper.

Good shootin'! keep it up.

[bushmasterar15]

Here is my platform as of now Rem. 700 .308 win, Badger 20moa base, TPS 35mm rings, and a IOR 3-18X42 scope. I've only shot it out to 300 yards but the groups are nice and tight. I will need to go out to some BLM land so I can go out to 1000 yards.

[wild_wild_wes]

I heard somewhere that few snipers shot past 300m in OIF.

And we called them the "butts" in the Marines. I think this term goes back to the Archery era!

[wild_wild_wes]

Back from the dead, but what about the idea of a Scout Rifle in 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC?

[JaxCatm]

W. W. Wes if your optics are letting you down purchase a Nightforce. I ran a leupold Mark 4 tactical on a FN SPR A3G for a couple of years. Nice glass no problem there but it would not track everytime. I'm not downing the company but I would lose a MOA here and there no big deal at 300. At extended ranges in the wind that is a no go for cold bore shots. The Nightforce tracks hands down. I've also heard from other shooters that S&B will track with the Nightforce but it is more prone to losing zero after being beat around. For the money a Nightforce is a good investment.

[Bigun]

Savage has a new F class rifle in 6.5-284 that would get you into the sport fairly affordably last price I saw was right at $1200 throw good mounts and a Nightforce scope on it and be ready to compete. Oh and if you arent handloading yet it adds to the sport.

[NC12215]

You are already on the right track. Ruger's can be notorious for throwing a shot here and there. Cost wise I would stay with the .308 and look at upgrading your glass and especially a different stock or new bedding job. Your .308 should be capable of decent accuracy to 1000yds. Rugers also have been known to have quite a bit of free bore. If you can't seat the bullet out to touch the lands, look at having the barrel set back to give you less "jump".
BUT, rebarreling to a .260 will truly give you warm fuzzies and a .260 AI is even better and known to cause cases of perma smile. They also won't beat you to death.
Another is the new 6.5 Creedmoor. It seems VERY promising.
Have fun.

From an unashamed 6.5 fan.
Dave
The 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 are good rounds for there intended platform (AR/M16/M4). But there are MUCH better choices for a mid to long range tac rifle than either.