View Full Version : M4 Off-The-Shelf?
What off-the-shelf manufacturer/model AR is most like the current issue US Army M4? So in the best case, I would go into a store and buy this weapon off-the-shelf, and it would look, feel, and operate the same as the US Army M4A1, less full auto.
I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I could not find the topic in my searches....
If you get a 6920 you'll need to add a KAC M4 RAS, too.
our Pltn has FN M4 carbines, personally I think an LMT standard with either ACOG, EOtech 553, or Aimpont M2, and a KAC flip up rear sight and RAS would be closest to what we're issued
shittercrewchief
01-30-11, 19:33
yup 6921 with a M4 RAS added
What off-the-shelf manufacturer/model AR is most like the current issue US Army M4? So in the best case, I would go into a store and buy this weapon off-the-shelf, and it would look, feel, and operate the same as the US Army M4A1, less full auto.
I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I could not find the topic in my searches....
Colt 6921.
C4
Yup, 6921. IINM, it's exactly an M4 minus the select fire feature and govt. roll marks, of course.
Although, to quote your post, "...and it would look, feel, and operate the same as the US Army M4A1, less full auto.", Any other good, "TDP adhering" M4 upper with a govt. profile barrel configured as an exact Mil clone should look, feel and perform the same as the real thing, if you will.
Sorry to derail the thread but a quick question to Garrasa-- are these FN M4 uppers sitting on FN M4 marked lowers or colts sitting on FN M16A4 lowers? Photos would be good too, if you have any. :thank_you2:
A 6920 is the closest without having to go the NFA route. Obviously Arizona is NFA friendly so that isn't an issue. But, you will have to add on an addtional 200.00 for the tax stamp.
So ask yourself if the extra 200.00 is worth the slight change in barrel length. I don't think it is. You would be better off getting a 6920 or a true SBR with a shorter barrel. YMMV.
Sorry to derail the thread but a quick question to Garrasa-- are these FN M4 uppers sitting on FN M4 marked lowers or colts sitting on FN M16A4 lowers? Photos would be good too, if you have any. :thank_you2:
I was under the impression the only complete guns FN is making for the Army are M16A4s.
What off-the-shelf manufacturer/model AR is most like the current issue US Army M4? So in the best case, I would go into a store and buy this weapon off-the-shelf, and it would look, feel, and operate the same as the US Army M4A1, less full auto.
I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I could not find the topic in my searches....
Since you are already in Scottsdale go to the Scottsdale Gun Club and check out the Colt 6921. Last time I was there they had a few on the shelf.
variablebinary
01-30-11, 23:50
Easy, Colt 6920
If not Colt, I personally would go LMT
Sorry to derail the thread but a quick question to Garrasa-- are these FN M4 uppers sitting on FN M4 marked lowers or colts sitting on FN M16A4 lowers? Photos would be good too, if you have any. :thank_you2:
from the looks of it, they're overhauled M16's re-marked M4 carbine. I'm not sure what the upper is, but when I go into work on Tuesday I'll try and take some pics
I was under the impression the only complete guns FN is making for the Army are M16A4s.
I too was under that impression, hence, my curiosity about the weapons issued to Garrasa's platoon.
I have heard of conversions whereby the lowers were even stamped over with m4a1 but cannot confirm the report's authenticity nor was it stated they destined for field use.
from the looks of it, they're overhauled M16's re-marked M4 carbine. I'm not sure what the upper is, but when I go into work on Tuesday I'll try and take some pics
Thanks! I appreciate it. I Guess that i report i read is accurate afterall. Stay safe.
Eurodriver
01-31-11, 01:30
Ahhh, yes.... the elusive FN M4A4 Carbine... You have to be pretty high speed to get one.
Or a 2111 :D
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/6131/pa190160.jpg
All,
Thanks for the great information and discussion. I figured that I would ask the experts, and as always, you guys really got into the details.
C-Grunt, I'm a regular at SGC, so we have probably run across each other before...just didn't know it.
LowSpeedHighDrag
01-31-11, 21:32
.....
CaptainDooley
01-31-11, 23:11
All your answers lie within: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
But in short - yes, the same people that make the real M4 make their civilian M4 exactly the same - which is what almost everyone that responded to this thread has said.
Does the Colt use an M16 bolt carrier?
Does the Colt use the low shelf on the lower receiver?
Does Colt block the lower receiver?
Does the Colt use milspec or commercial receiver extensions?
I don't know the answers to the above questions.
I ask these questions because I was wanting the closest thing to the M4, however I was talked into buying a different brand of M4gery at a substantially lower price.
If I could afford it, I'd get a KAC SR15.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213921990
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv7/TheOutpostArmory/IMG_0031.jpg
A quick look at Rob;s infamous chart will give you most of your answers.
Does the Colt use an M16 bolt carrier? Yes
Does the Colt use the low shelf on the lower receiver? Don't know
Does Colt block the lower receiver? No
Does the Colt use milspec or commercial receiver extensions? Yes, milspec
I don't know the answers to the above questions.
I ask these questions because I was wanting the closest thing to the M4, however I was talked into buying a different brand of M4gery at a substantially lower price.
If I could afford it, I'd get a KAC SR15.
A Colt 6920 is basically a 16" M4 with no select-fire. A 6921 is the 14.5 version and must have a pinned muzzle device or NFA paperwork.
If anyone talks you out of a Colt for something "substantially" cheaper then it is probably a POS.
The exceptions would be Daniel Defense, BCM or LMT.
You should be able to get a Colt 6920 for around 1100.00- ish.
Does the Colt use an M16 bolt carrier?
Does the Colt use the low shelf on the lower receiver?
Does Colt block the lower receiver?
Does the Colt use milspec or commercial receiver extensions?
I don't know the answers to the above questions.
I ask these questions because I was wanting the closest thing to the M4, however I was talked into buying a different brand of M4gery at a substantially lower price.
If I could afford it, I'd get a KAC SR15.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213921990
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv7/TheOutpostArmory/IMG_0031.jpg
NoveskeFan
01-31-11, 23:40
Does the Colt use an M16 bolt carrier?
Does the Colt use the low shelf on the lower receiver?
Does Colt block the lower receiver?
Does the Colt use milspec or commercial receiver extensions?
I don't know the answers to the above questions.
I ask these questions because I was wanting the closest thing to the M4, however I was talked into buying a different brand of M4gery at a substantially lower price.
If I could afford it, I'd get a KAC SR15.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213921990
http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv7/TheOutpostArmory/IMG_0031.jpg
Just curious, but what were you talked into buying?
LowSpeedHighDrag
02-01-11, 10:40
Just curious, but what were you talked into buying?
My budget was $1000 and I wanted the Colt 6920. I knew the Colt was made of quality materials, however I also remembered my father's H-Bar from 1992 as having all kinds of obstacles installed by Colt to thwart somebody from converting it. I assumed Colt still followed this practice and never gave it much thought.
I read on the forums that Colt, FN, KAC, LMT, Noveske and BCM were good to go and I simply wanted something reliable out of the box. I could not find a BCM. The KAC, LMT and Noveske cost too much, FNs are impossible to find so I settled for the Colt.
The Colt was not in stock and were selling for $1300, the "other dealer" had them for $1600. I guess they jacked up the price somewhere within the last 4 years..
At my local gun store over in the Law Enforcement "Tactical" section there's a salesman who was telling me how Spikes followed the TDP and was good to go. I was vaguely familiar with "the chart" and figured it would be nice to have a rifle that filled in the boxes.
Nothing wrong with that..
Later I went to the Spikes webpage, looked at the specs and found the thread on the other site from Spikes showing photocopies of their certificates.
I just wanted a gun for home defense, plinking and taking white-tail deer in the woods at close range. For $725 I bought the Spikes carbine. I don't care for the Spider logo and the multi-bullet selector looks gay.
I've put 700 rds through it with any malfunctions, which isn't really impressive. I could have done the same with a Del-ton or a DPMS.
Then why all the questions if you could do the same w/ a hobby gun manufacturer?
Glad your piece works, but your get what you pay for in most cases and that most certainly includes weapons.
.
You did good. I kept waiting for you to say you spent $1000+ or so. You could have done a lot worse.
Looks like ST offers a decent gun at a decent price.
.
It's not delivery, it's FN
also, not my weapon, but it looks like every single M4 on our racks. all we have are FN's and KAC's a shake barrett's a couple of Remington's and a handful of Beretta's
http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae12/SBCTJohn/IMAG0141.jpg
serial number is 10xxxxxx for those who may be interested (yes I'm certain about that number)
Grumpy MSG
02-01-11, 23:32
It's not delivery, it's FN
also, not my weapon, but it looks like every single M4 on our racks. all we have are FN's and KAC's a shake barrett's a couple of Remington's and a handful of barretta's
http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae12/SBCTJohn/IMAG0141.jpg
serial number is 10xxxxxx for those who may be interested (yes I'm certain about that number)
That is a first for me!! I haven't ever seen an M16A2/A4 get converted. That oval shaped milling is just like the selector milling the M16A1s used to get when they were converted to A2s. They just got a 2 stamped over the 1 in A1. With a Serial Number above 10,000,000 I would guess it was an M16A4 first. Thanks for the photographic proof. I don't need to know or want to know the specifics of numbers of what is in your arms room (never forget about OPSEC). You have more than just the rail systems and covers from KAC in your arms room?
By the way, the correct spelling is Beretta.
That is a first for me!! I haven't ever seen an M16A2/A4 get converted. That oval shaped milling is just like the selector milling the M16A1s used to get when they were converted to A2s. They just got a 2 stamped over the 1 in A1. With a Serial Number above 10,000,000 I would guess it was an M16A4 first. Thanks for the photographic proof. I don't need to know or want to know the specifics of numbers of what is in your arms room (never forget about OPSEC). You have more than just the rail systems and covers from KAC in your arms room?
By the way, the correct spelling is Beretta.
We've got 110's. I got to shoot them not too long ago, very nice rifle. the snipers said the suppressors didn't dampen the sound at all on the SASS and just made them super long and unwieldy, not being able to shoot the suppressed guns myself I have to take their word for it. this is what ruined KAC's image in my eyes.
haha my apologies, I've been trying to do a course that's supposed to take a week and do it all in one night. gotta love those last minute army delegations :rolleyes:
..however I also remembered my father's H-Bar from 1992 as having all kinds of obstacles installed by Colt to thwart somebody from converting it. I assumed Colt still followed this practice and never gave it much thought...
Why would this be an issue? Do you have plans on converting it into full-auto?
Does the Colt use an M16 bolt carrier? Yes.
Does the Colt use the low shelf on the lower receiver? No.
Does Colt block the lower receiver? Yes.
Does the Colt use milspec or commercial receiver extensions? Milspec.
... the snipers said the suppressors didn't dampen the sound at all on the SASS and just made them super long and unwieldy, not being able to shoot the suppressed guns myself I have to take their word for it. this is what ruined KAC's image in my eyes.
...
I'm not Army or anything and I know you are, but I have got to seriously doubt the veracity of that. :confused:
Grumpy MSG
02-03-11, 02:03
We've got 110's. I got to shoot them not too long ago, very nice rifle. the snipers said the suppressors didn't dampen the sound at all on the SASS and just made them super long and unwieldy, not being able to shoot the suppressed guns myself I have to take their word for it. this is what ruined KAC's image in my eyes.
haha my apologies, I've been trying to do a course that's supposed to take a week and do it all in one night. gotta love those last minute army delegations :rolleyes:
I hope you weren't stuck doing the Field Sanitation course. I clean forgot about the M110s with all the hype about the M24s being overhauled/ upgraded.
Why would this be an issue? Do you have plans on converting it into full-auto?
For some of the Mil. Spec. purists, what Colt did in the '90s (during the assault weapons ban) was an abomination. Are those rifles decent? Yes. Are they 100% Mil. Spec.? No. Somehow I don't think the lack of a flash supressor or bayonet lug (everybody uses that all the time :haha:) really would impact most people. The different size pins on the fire control group definitely annoy the folks who are trying to upgrade the trigger in their rifle. Colt did what they had to do to keep the rifle available to the public at the time (and help keep themselves in business).
I'm not Army or anything and I know you are, but I have got to seriously doubt the veracity of that.:confused:
Which part do you doubt? Adding the extra length to a rifle that is already 40+ inches long? or the sound supressor not damping the sound? Here is PEO Soldier's info sheet: https://peosoldier.army.mil/Factsheets/PMSW/SW_IW_M110.pdf
A rifle that is almost 4 feet long would be unwieldy, especially if the Soldier is mounting/ dismounting vehicles and using it in an urban environment. As for the effectiveness of the supressor, understand that Garrasa isn't speaking from his impression, but of other Soldiers' impressions. The M110 fires a supersonic bullet, so no matter what you do to supress the noise, there will be a "sonic crack" sound and maybe that is what the other Soldiers are hearing that gives them the impression that the supressor is ineffective. It probably does reduce the sound, just not as much as they would like. Sound supressors in the real world don't do near as much as Hollywoods' "Silencers", where they just edit the noise out of the film.
Which part do you doubt? Adding the extra length to a rifle that is already 40+ inches long? or the sound supressor not damping the sound? Here is PEO Soldier's info sheet: https://peosoldier.army.mil/Factsheets/PMSW/SW_IW_M110.pdf
A rifle that is almost 4 feet long would be unwieldy, especially if the Soldier is mounting/ dismounting vehicles and using it in an urban environment. As for the effectiveness of the supressor, understand that Garrasa isn't speaking from his impression, but of other Soldiers' impressions. The M110 fires a supersonic bullet, so no matter what you do to supress the noise, there will be a "sonic crack" sound and maybe that is what the other Soldiers are hearing that gives them the impression that the supressor is ineffective. It probably does reduce the sound, just not as much as they would like. Sound supressors in the real world don't do near as much as Hollywoods' "Silencers", where they just edit the noise out of the film.
I was referring to the sound suppression part. I understand that he did not personally fire the suppressed weapons, but just because another soldier tells you it sucks should not be a basis to "ruin" KAC. I am well aware of the limitations of rifle suppressors.
I am also well aware of mil-spec purist/desires. I was interested in hearing from LowSpeedHighDrag about why a blocked lower receiver would affect him.
It's not delivery, it's FN
also, not my weapon, but it looks like every single M4 on our racks. all we have are FN's and KAC's a shake barrett's a couple of Remington's and a handful of Beretta's
http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae12/SBCTJohn/IMAG0141.jpg
serial number is 10xxxxxx for those who may be interested (yes I'm certain about that number)
Thanks for the photo. Stay safe!
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