View Full Version : BAD Lever Bolt Lock Issues... Cut Spring?
Many people (me included) have seen issues with the BAD and other levers causing failure to lock the bolt back on an empty mag. Intrepid users have tried many things including new lowers, bolt catches, buffers, BCG groups, and buffer springs with various amounts of success.
I think we can all agree a BAD lever is not part of the original rifle spec, but assuming we *want* to make it work, how about cutting the bolt catch spring?
Personally, I think this is a bad idea and would not do it on a serious use rifle, but it would likely fix the problem.
So the catch/spring was made to work a certain way but now you are adding extra weight to the catch with a BAD, making it harder to move out of the way and basically adding to the inertia required to move it. It would follow that a less powerful spring would allow the now heavier system to have the same inertia as before and work correctly. However, will a less powerful spring allow the system to move "easier" when not wanted and lock the bolt back at the wrong time? Is there a balance here or will a less powerful spring = less reliable operation?
Just a thought. Feel free to flame about not wasting time making an extra part work, but to me that's sorta what this whole forum is about :)
Dennis.
No idea. I won't cut stuff or make questionable mods in order to get a piece of questionable gear to work on my weapon.
Many people (me included) have seen issues with the BAD and other levers causing failure to lock the bolt back on an empty mag. Intrepid users have tried many things including new lowers, bolt catches, buffers, BCG groups, and buffer springs with various amounts of success.
I think we can all agree a BAD lever is not part of the original rifle spec, but assuming we *want* to make it work, how about cutting the bolt catch spring?
Personally, I think this is a bad idea and would not do it on a serious use rifle, but it would likely fix the problem.
So the catch/spring was made to work a certain way but now you are adding extra weight to the catch with a BAD, making it harder to move out of the way and basically adding to the inertia required to move it. It would follow that a less powerful spring would allow the now heavier system to have the same inertia as before and work correctly. However, will a less powerful spring allow the system to move "easier" when not wanted and lock the bolt back at the wrong time? Is there a balance here or will a less powerful spring = less reliable operation?
Just a thought. Feel free to flame about not wasting time making an extra part work, but to me that's sorta what this whole forum is about :)
Dennis.
Honestly, I just gave up on the BAD lever. I've not gotten them to run on anything from a 10.5 to an 18" SPR barreled gun. Got two of them sitting in a drawer now.
I thought I had it worked out recently in a thread I posted about but a couple weeks later it all went south again. Too bad. I really wanted the BAD lever to work out for me. But nothing related to convenience is worth the slightest sacrifice in reliability.
The spirit of my post is given the following "accepted changes" in the AR platform nowadays:
- Enhanced extractor springs
- Reduced power/extra power buffer, trigger, and magazine springs
- Heavier bolt carriers
- Carbine, H, H2, H3, Spikes, Pistol, A5, Rifle, and super heavy buffers
- Probably a whole lot more... Not even to mention what serious 1911 users go through to keep their gun running.
Basically, I think the BAD lever and it's ilk are a not fully engineered add-on. Note the many ambi-lowers that are coming on the market now. Maybe a BAD truly needs a bigger design change including pivot point, but it sure would be nice if it just required a spring change...
You find out how new stuff works by trying it and maybe after lots and lots of trying, and testing, and others using it, it can become "standard".
Dennis.
My range life got a lot easier when I got away from 1911's and started focusing on Glock 9mm and HK .45 pistols.
Again, I like the idea behind the BAD lever but it's just not going to work for me. You see a lot of pics out there with AR's with BAD levers on them. But I don't think it'll ever be "standard" on anything but Magpul training DVD's.
On a side note, with the BAD installed, my rifle (16" BCM middy) quit locking back with weaker .223 ammo after I switched from a carbine to an H buffer. I recently removed the BAD and installed a TL Enhanced lever, and now it won't lock back with the hotter .223 ammo that it previously had no problems locking back, only thing that has changed was the assist lever manufacturer.
I bring this up because I'm in the process of replacing my blue Sprinco spring with a BCM carbine spring and I'm also going to remove the TL lever. I will report back after the weekend, but I'm pretty sure my particular rifle doesn't like any add-on leversm, so they will be thrown in the junk box.
When I installed the TL lever I noticed that it seemed heavier duty / bulkier than the BAD.....go figure.....
On a side note, with the BAD installed, my rifle (16" BCM middy) quit locking back with weaker .223 ammo after I switched from a carbine to an H buffer. I recently removed the BAD and installed a TL Enhanced lever, and now it won't lock back with the hotter .223 ammo that it previously had no problems locking back, only thing that has changed was the assist lever manufacturer.
I bring this up because I'm in the process of replacing my blue Sprinco spring with a BCM carbine spring and I'm also going to remove the TL lever. I will report back after the weekend, but I'm pretty sure my particular rifle doesn't like any add-on leversm, so they will be thrown in the junk box.
When I installed the TL lever I noticed that it seemed heavier duty / bulkier than the BAD.....go figure.....
Pretty much sounds like my problems, but I actually started with a well used carbine length buffer spring that worked *worse* than the blue Sprinco I put in as far as BAD + bolt lock went...
I am ready to give up on a BAD for this mid-length, but I might try a cut spring just for experimentation purposes, however even if that works I am loathe to leave it in.
Dennis.
The spirit of my post is given the following "accepted changes" in the AR platform nowadays:
- Enhanced extractor springs
- Reduced power/extra power buffer, trigger, and magazine springs
- Heavier bolt carriers
- Carbine, H, H2, H3, Spikes, Pistol, A5, Rifle, and super heavy buffers
- Probably a whole lot more... Not even to mention what serious 1911 users go through to keep their gun running.
I don't know what it is but I just don't get these things at all.
I have 5 AR15s; 10.5"/14.5"/16"carbine/16"mid length/18" and all run with a BAD lever without any issues, with standard springs from their respective factories: Colt,LMT,DD,BCM.
Then I have 5 1911s 3"/4.25"/3x5" and I run all stock weight springs and all these weapons needed nothing from their factory configuration to run properly. Even the 5" 1911 A1 from 1943 runs perfectly...
Either I'm the luckiest ****er around, or people are just getting shit specs.
A correctly built AR is exactly like a correctly built 1911, 100% reliable over thousands and thousands of rounds.
Cameron
All my ARs with BAD Levers
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5241/5213882132_91161df369_b.jpg
1911s that actually run, with no modification... :confused:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4139/4876086077_ff521d82d4_b.jpg
I'm running a 16", carbine length gas with H2 buffer and a BAD lever. I have yet to see it cause any issues even shooting primarily wolf. But it is a great help during malfunction drills and mag changes.
Like above, I have yet to have a single issue out of my 1911 either...and it's an RIA with a few kimber bits mixed in. Ran fine stock, runs fine now.
Guess I'm one of the lucky ones too
jasonhgross
02-02-11, 15:16
IraqGunz got it right. Maybe this is what we call a clue. Get rid of the BAD lever. Problem solved right?
I think that people may be installing the BAD incorrectly (or poorly). Mine works perfectly and I've never had an issue with the bolt not locking on empty. My buddy's 10.5" MRP just got the BAD added to it and operated properly during our trip to the range Sunday.
If it's not attached well it could rotate a bit on the bolt release and possibly contact the receiver on the lower half of the BAD. If that happens it could then cause the failure to lock issue.
Vinson
Cagemonkey
02-02-11, 15:43
Many people (me included) have seen issues with the BAD and other levers causing failure to lock the bolt back on an empty mag. Intrepid users have tried many things including new lowers, bolt catches, buffers, BCG groups, and buffer springs with various amounts of success.
I think we can all agree a BAD lever is not part of the original rifle spec, but assuming we *want* to make it work, how about cutting the bolt catch spring?
Personally, I think this is a bad idea and would not do it on a serious use rifle, but it would likely fix the problem.
So the catch/spring was made to work a certain way but now you are adding extra weight to the catch with a BAD, making it harder to move out of the way and basically adding to the inertia required to move it. It would follow that a less powerful spring would allow the now heavier system to have the same inertia as before and work correctly. However, will a less powerful spring allow the system to move "easier" when not wanted and lock the bolt back at the wrong time? Is there a balance here or will a less powerful spring = less reliable operation?
Just a thought. Feel free to flame about not wasting time making an extra part work, but to me that's sorta what this whole forum is about :)
Dennis.How about an extra power/strength magazine spring?
How about an extra power/strength magazine spring?
That works for all my GI mags, but even on Magpuls that don't work extra power springs only partially solved the problems.
I have BAD levers on 4 other AR's that run great, it's just this upper that does not work. Being that it's a factory Noveske that shoots incredibly otherwise I am just seeing what else I can do to get it work.
Dennis.
I have BAD levers on 4 other AR's that run great, it's just this upper that does not work.
You hit the nail on the head, and proved my point, this is not a BAD lever issue, this is an issue with your upper.
In the case of this upper, either have the upper worked on to rectify it, as it sounds like it may not have enough bolt velocity you could perhaps open the gas port, use lighter buffer spring, lighter buffer, or simply leave the BAD lever off.
If it was mine I just wouldn't run the BAD as it isn't worth the hassle.
Cameron
.
I like the BAD Lever and have only had intermittent problems with just 20-round mags.
I've been speculating why the BAD's cause problems with some guns and not with others. Here's a guess as to what the problem may be:
Most of the Bolt Catches I have seen are kind of loose. A lot of side to side slop; no big deal but not a precision fit either. Plus the finish on the Bolt Catch and on the sides of the Bolt Catch supports are naturally “rough”.
The horizontal run of the BAD through the Trigger Guard probably accounts for a considerable percentage of the weight of a BAD. This weight is a couple of inches below the Bolt Catch's Pin.
During recoil, this weight "out on the end of a stick" applies a compounded force to the Bolt Catch which causes the BC to bind in between the supports for the BC and on the BC Pin. This binding hinders the magazine spring's push up on the BC long enough to miss catching the Bolt.
I'm not having a repeatable problem with my BAD. If I was having problems, I would do one of the two following:
#1 - Try forcing a good thick teflon grease (SuperLube) into the sides of the BC around the pin, where the BC rubs inside the gun, and anywhere else there is a chance for a rub. Work the BC to spread the lube, relube, work it again, wipe of excess. Shoot the gun and see if this makes things better. If it does, then I would do #2.
#2 - Remove the BC to smooth the sides of the BC and smooth both of the inside edges of the BC supports with a polish. I'd probably smooth out everywhere that the BC rubbed or could rub in the gun.
I wouldn't remove any finish; just smooth it out with a polish. Coupled with a little lube, this might allow the BC to “glide” into position in spite of the binding force applied by the BAD.
If this works out to be the problem, it might explain how some spring and buffer changes have had positive (and negative) affect on some BAD's but not others.
Now this is just me and my big head "thinking"...YMMV
Just a thought...
.
Belmont31R
02-02-11, 16:50
My issue with the BAD is that it doesn't fit any of the Colt bolt catches I have installed. I install Colt bolt catches on all my guns...even the SR15. The BAD simply is too big around the bolt catch interface to clamp down good on these.
From what I believe Drake said on TOS the BAD was tested primarily on SW lowers which uses a commercial size bolt catch. From the few I have examined the SW bolt catches are much thicker in the paddle areas than mil-spec Colt bolt catches.
I did test the BAD on a Stag LPK bolt catch I had laying around, and it clamped just fine to that. I think many of the commercial companies are using bolt catches with much thicker paddle areas than 'original/mil-spec' size paddles such as Colt.
The BAD was also slightly loose on the original SR15 bolt catch I had which I swapped at around 500 rounds. I have since run over 10k failure free rounds through that SR15. I do not think its an issue with with my uppers/lowers rather its just simply that the BAD will either work or it wont depending on the brand and setup you have. I got all kinds of issues using the BAD on that SR15. As soon as I took it off Ive not had any issues at all. Even after I took it off I ran that gun to over 5k rounds without a cleaning and didn't have any issues with it then, either. Im not going to blame the gun when it runs 100% without cleaning for over 5k rounds and over 10k without a single failure because an aftermarket device added to it suddenly causes problems.
I love having BAD levers on my guns and I think they are a great tool if they work like they should. If it's not working like it should, get rid of it.
I have them on both my ARs and I've never had a single problem.
.
I'm not having a repeatable problem with my BAD. If I was having problems, I would do one of the two following:
#1 - Try forcing a good thick teflon grease (SuperLube) into the sides of the BC around the pin, where the BC rubs inside the gun, and anywhere else there is a chance for a rub. Work the BC to spread the lube, relube, work it again, wipe of excess. Shoot the gun and see if this makes things better. If it does, then I would do #2.
#2 - Remove the BC to smooth the sides of the BC and smooth both of the inside edges of the BC supports with a polish. I'd probably smooth out everywhere that the BC rubbed or could rub in the gun.
I wouldn't remove any finish; just smooth it out with a polish. Coupled with a little lube, this might allow the BC to “glide” into position in spite of the binding force applied by the BAD.
If this works out to be the problem, it might explain how some spring and buffer changes have had positive (and negative) affect on some BAD's but not others.
Now this is just me and my big head "thinking"...YMMV
Just a thought...
.
Yeah, my bolt catch has a decent amount of room to move around in and both the lower and catch are smooth. I have tried light oil, moly grease, and now Frog lube with no difference and the the action seems smooth as silk...
I do agree with your theory though, and am going to try a cut spring to achieve the same inertia reduction just for pure experimentation sake. I AM NOT GOING TO LEAVE A CUT SPRING IN MY LOWER :no:
Dennis.
I have BAD levers on both my rifles. 16" carbine w/h buffer, and 16" middy w/h buffer. They both run great. My thoughts lean toward tolerance stacking. Tiny incremental differences in different rifles can add up to a "perfect storm" that won't allow the rifle to run with the BAD. I think the rule of thumb should be, if it runs fine ON THAT PARTICULAR RIFLE, use it. If it causes any problems whatsoever, ditch it. If you're bound and determined to use the BAD, be prepared to fiddle with everything, (including the lower) to get it to run.
For some reason the pin on the spring on my SBR lower was stuck in, so my BAD lever would just flop around. No function problems at all with about 400 rounds through that gun.
For some reason the pin on the spring on my SBR lower was stuck in, so my BAD lever would just flop around. No function problems at all with about 400 rounds through that gun.
Haha, that's pretty good evidence that a slightly cut spring may work OK. I don't think the recoil force really affects the up/down movement of the bolt catch.
Dennis.
I put a BAD lever on an AR-15 for the first time about a year ago. They are now standard equipment on my ARs, and I have never experienced the bolt not locking back after the last round. Combined I have over 10k rounds out of guns that had BAD levers on them, and a decent chunk of those were practicing reloading where I only put 3-10 rounds in a number of magazines. A lot of that ammo was Wolf, which we know is low powered.
So what is the difference that causes issues for some?
Haha, that's pretty good evidence that a slightly cut spring may work OK. I don't think the recoil force really affects the up/down movement of the bolt catch.
Dennis.
In all seriousness, I wish it would have caused a random malfunction so I could have practiced my drills.
It might have become a problem in a course where you are doing more than shooting, who knows.
I guess my upper could be out of spec, but I wouldn't think it would be since it's a new, complete BCM upper.....but anything's possible I suppose............
I think my particular issue has more to do with the blue Sprinco spring in conjunction with the H-buffer and bulkier TL lever. But I will confirm that this weekend, since I will have both a new BCM carbine spring and new white Sprinco spring to test out.
I can put the carbine buffer back in it right now and it won't miss a lick with any ammo or mags, but I would honestly rather run an H buffer, even if it means no add-on battery assist lever.
I threw the new "white" Sprinco spring in with my H-buffer and headed out to the range on Saturday. I started out with the TL lever installed and was using two 20-round Pmags to do 2 round tests to check for bolt lock back.
With Wolf in it, it would not lock back with the lever installed, but would 50% of the time with the lever removed. I had about the same results with PMC .223 ammo, except with the lever removed it would lock back 100% of the time.
Ran about 300 rounds through it and headed home. Before I cleaned it up I decided to test one more thing. I removed the Sprinco spring and installed a new BCM carbine buffer spring with the H-buffer and loaded up two 20 round Pmags with 2 rounds of PMC and installed the TL lever again. I tested it about ten times rotating mags and it locked back 100% of the time.
All I can figure is that my rifle only likes plain old carbine springs....
I had a few other fun things happen while at the range, first my brand new FDE 20 round Pmag crack up at the top along the feed lip. Second thing was a failure to fire, I couldn't figure out what was going on with one of my Wolf rounds, until I looked closer and realized that they had installed the primer backwards......quality control at its finest, glad that was the last of the Wolf ammo I had left over.
The BAD is one of those parts that most people only have a very small sampling to deal with, and extrapolate that to the entire rest of the universe.
I have all three gens of Magpul BAD. From the prototype, to first production, to current production. I have never:
had a failure to lock back
had one come loose
had an ND
had a paddle it wouldn't attach to
This includes parts/pieces/rifles from a host of manufacturers to include Spike's, Colt, BCM, LMT, etc. and ammo from Wolf, to Brown Bear, to XM193 and Black Hills 75 and 77.
However, I have witnessed almost every one of the problems that have been mentioned in the thread, on other people's guns. In most cases that I've seen, the problem has been the operator/owner/host gun. and once home remedies start, on home-cooked guns to begin with, things tend to slide downhill.
I've ran my BAD lever on both my 20" varmint RRA and my issue M4 without any issues, granted I've only had it for a few months and have only put a few hundred rounds down range between the two guns with it on but I feel pretty confident in it.
Haha, that's pretty good evidence that a slightly cut spring may work OK. I don't think the recoil force really affects the up/down movement of the bolt catch.
Dennis.
Cutting springs is always a bad idea. It decreases the number of active coils and forces an increase in spring rate. Always consider the law of unintended consequences before cutting a spring.
I would not cut the spring, as its not very powerful to begin with, and its purpose to keep bolt/bc from locking back when it shouldn't. That would be a Bad Thing during a serious situation; self defense, or costing time during competition.
Had an issue with bolt/bc dropping with a reload, leaving an empty chamber, after installing a BAD. Suspect my right index finger may have hit it after pressing mag release. Since it was used and I was not going to get much by selling it, decided to modify it. Ended up cutting off most of grooved flat section on tip of BAD, no more issues. Made it a little lighter as well, which is a good thing.
Mark
All I can figure is that my rifle only likes plain old carbine springs....
I had a few other fun things happen while at the range, first my brand new FDE 20 round Pmag crack up at the top along the feed lip. Second thing was a failure to fire, I couldn't figure out what was going on with one of my Wolf rounds, until I looked closer and realized that they had installed the primer backwards......quality control at its finest, glad that was the last of the Wolf ammo I had left over.
Sounds like you are one of THOSE guys. You know, the ones that have all the problems so the rest of us can go on trouble free. :p
This is one of those times, like Rob said above, where you are screwing with something that will get you &*%$ed. One, cutting coils off springs has no effect on spring rate, unless you have a progressive spring like the disconnector. The spring rate on the bolt catch spring is constant. It should be common sense that if you reduce the overall compressed length enough, that at some point, you will run out of travel to prevent the bolt from locking when it shouldn't. DON'T cut the spring. If anything you want to increase the spring rate to overcome any additional weight on the bolt catch added by the BAD lever and components. Since this is minimal it SHOULDN'T be an issue. If it was MAGPUL should have provided a new spring with minimal increase in rate. I would suspect their engineers knew that and that was the most important factor as to their low weight alloy design. If someone can document repeated failures with operator error removed, then contact Magpul.
After close inspection of any contact between the BAD & Lower, I noticed the lever was indeed contacting the front of trigger well when I would rock the lever forward. I 'tweaked' the lever (after removing from paddle) back a bit, now no more contact. I still had a failure to hold the bolt open on a 20 round pmag this weekend. Only happened once on the 20 round mag (prolly ran 5 times) and not once on a 30 round mag, which was run thru about 5 times as well.
I have had problems with the 20 round mag since I bought it. I had to relieve the follower before I ever used it, as it was too tight in the mag & was binding during loading & unloading. Dunno whats up w/ their 20 rounders--seems like alot of folks have issues with them.
I would not cut the spring, as its not very powerful to begin with, and its purpose to keep bolt/bc from locking back when it shouldn't. That would be a Bad Thing during a serious situation; self defense, or costing time during competition.
Had an issue with bolt/bc dropping with a reload, leaving an empty chamber, after installing a BAD. Suspect my right index finger may have hit it after pressing mag release. Since it was used and I was not going to get much by selling it, decided to modify it. Ended up cutting off most of grooved flat section on tip of BAD, no more issues. Made it a little lighter as well, which is a good thing.
Mark
I had the same problem with "pre-mature bolt drops" with the BAD during training, until I trained my finger to go somewhere else during reloading. However, cutting the tip off is a pretty good idea as well!
Dennis.
I don't know what it is but I just don't get these things at all.
I have 5 AR15s; 10.5"/14.5"/16"carbine/16"mid length/18" and all run with a BAD lever without any issues, with standard springs from their respective factories: Colt,LMT,DD,BCM.
Then I have 5 1911s 3"/4.25"/3x5" and I run all stock weight springs and all these weapons needed nothing from their factory configuration to run properly. Even the 5" 1911 A1 from 1943 runs perfectly...
Either I'm the luckiest ****er around, or people are just getting shit specs.
A correctly built AR is exactly like a correctly built 1911, 100% reliable over thousands and thousands of rounds.
That's because you, like me, buy Colt 1911s (with a WW2 Remington Rand for good measure). And gee, they actually work. Go figure. :rolleyes:
I try telling people it's not the design, it's the 2,000 manufacturers of them and the 3 million manufacturers of magazines that cause the problems. I keep mine Colt, my magazines Colt hybrid or USGI 7 rounders and they run fine. If I want aftermarket parts I make sure the gunsmith I take them to for installation knows his asshole from a hole in the ground. It's not rocket science.
Cutting springs is always a bad idea. It decreases the number of active coils and forces an increase in spring rate. Always consider the law of unintended consequences before cutting a spring.
I would not cut the spring, as its not very powerful to begin with, and its purpose to keep bolt/bc from locking back when it shouldn't. That would be a Bad Thing during a serious situation; self defense, or costing time during competition.
Mark
This is one of those times, like Rob said above, where you are screwing with something that will get you &*%$ed. One, cutting coils off springs has no effect on spring rate, unless you have a progressive spring like the disconnector. The spring rate on the bolt catch spring is constant. It should be common sense that if you reduce the overall compressed length enough, that at some point, you will run out of travel to prevent the bolt from locking when it shouldn't. DON'T cut the spring. If anything you want to increase the spring rate to overcome any additional weight on the bolt catch added by the BAD lever and components. Since this is minimal it SHOULDN'T be an issue. If it was MAGPUL should have provided a new spring with minimal increase in rate. I would suspect their engineers knew that and that was the most important factor as to their low weight alloy design. If someone can document repeated failures with operator error removed, then contact Magpul.
I appreciate everyone's concern here, and I would be the first to tell others/possible newby's not to do something like this. However, my goal here is to just discuss various possible options from a technical (hence the forum name) and exploratory perspective. This is NOT a duty, self defense, or competition gun. It is a factory Noveske upper on a pre-ban lower (CA rules) that has seen many thousands of failure free rounds down range with many uppers. I actually have a few pre-ban lowers with over a dozen uppers over years that have been failure free, but not with this Noveske with a BAD.
The real problem could be the upper but Noveske basically said that they do not guarantee the upper with a BAD and I cannot blame them. I am just testing out things to see what works mostly out of curiosity's sake although I posted here to get extra info and some help, and I have received some good input.
So thanks everyone for the help and concern, and don't worry I won't be cutting any springs in my duty Glocks, S&W's, or Benelli anytime soon! Although my auto knives could use a stronger spring :p
Dennis.
OK.....so let me get this straight.......it sounds like the consensus is that I picked piss poor manufactures for my upper and lower and should have let a qualified "gunsmith" install the bad lever and assemble my upper and lower. I need to call BCM and Daniel Defense and let them know that their products are pure shit since the rifle doesn't like to run with an add-on accessory with shit ammo and that everyone else has never had a problem in 10 million rounds..........:D?
At least I do have a "Colt" LPK......but I screwed that up by installing a shitty Geissele trigger.........
DDgunslinger
02-07-11, 14:07
I run BAD levers on my Spike/BCM and my Accurate Armory. I have had zero issues so far. Both ARs have been run during carbine courses as well. I have been pleased over all with the product.
OK.....so let me get this straight.......it sounds like the consensus is that I picked piss poor manufactures for my upper and lower and should have let a qualified "gunsmith" install the bad lever and assemble my upper and lower. I need to call BCM and Daniel Defense and let them know that their products are pure shit since the rifle doesn't like to run with an add-on accessory with shit ammo and that everyone else has never had a problem in 10 million rounds..........:D?
At least I do have a "Colt" LPK......but I screwed that up by installing a shitty Geissele trigger.........
what does the trigger have to do with the BAD?
I think you're missing the point of the posts.
This topic has been discussed to death here, but there are all sorts of theories, even some good ones, about what makes for a problematic BAD experience vs. a good one. None of them have had anything to do with the brand specifically.
what does the trigger have to do with the BAD?
I think you're missing the point of the posts.
This topic has been discussed to death here, but there are all sorts of theories, even some good ones, about what makes for a problematic BAD experience vs. a good one. None of them have had anything to do with the brand specifically.
No actually I got the point, I was replying to the couple of previous comments that basically eluded that if people would just buy Colt rifles or let qualified people install their accessories there wouldn't be any problems......that was just my poor attempt at being a smart ass in reply to those comments that don't do much for helping figure out "why" some rifles will run fine with a BAD installed and some not so much. I personally think it is most of the time a combination of smaller issues that make for the "perfect storm" of not working. What I don't believe is that "just because mine has never had a problem" necessarily means that "ours" are shit equipment that are "out of spec", as some people sound like they believe. If that's really the case, then it sounds like BCM & others have a hell of a quality control problem since some run and some don't.
I also feel pretty confident that it's not "me" that's causing the problem when I'm test firing the rifle specifically to check for bolt lock back and that's all I'm concentrating on. Now if it locked back during testing, but when I go to do some shooting with it I start having functional problems, then yeah, it's probably me sticking my finger where it doesn't belong......that didn't sound too good did it?
Until there's a comprehensive list of - mine works flawlessly with "X" buffer and "Y" spring and "Z" ammo, then there's no way to really figure it out what the common denominator is, but as you mentioned in a previous reply, there may really be no rhyme or reason for it anyways.
So don't mind me...it just gets under my skin a little when people are trying to collectively figure out why something does what it does and there's always that random drive by "it's because you have a piece of shit" comment thrown in for good measure. I realize there's plenty of posts on the topic and I have read all of those, but I'm no closer to understanding what's really going on. It's not like I'm saying Magpul BAD's are junk, if that's how I felt then I would simply toss it in the damn trash can and move along quietly. But you'll also never see me make a random comment like "well I'd say your Colt piece of shit only works because it's so out of spec and loose that it doesn't know any better" :).
No actually I got the point, I was replying to the couple of previous post that basically eluded that if people would just buy Colt rifles or let qualified people install their accessories there wouldn't be any problems......I was basically being a smart ass in reply to those comments that don't do much for helping figure out "why" some rifles will run fine with a BAD installed and some not so much. I personally think it is most of the time a combination of smaller issues that make for the "perfect storm" of not working. What I don't believe is that "just because mine has never had a problem" necessarily means that "ours" are shit equipment that are "out of spec", as some people sound like they believe. If that's really the case, then it sounds like BCM & others have a hell of a quality control problem since some run and some don't.
Until there's a comprehensive list of - mine works flawlessly with "X" buffer and "Y" spring and "Z" ammo, then there's no way to really figure it out what the common denominator is, but as you mentioned in a previous reply, there may really be no rhyme or reason for it anyways.
So don't mind me...it just gets under my skin a little when people are trying to collectively figure out why something does what it does and there's always that random drive by "it's because you have a piece of shit" comment thrown in. I realize there's plenty of posts and I have read those, but I'm no closer to understanding what's really going on. It's not like I'm saying Magpul BAD's are junk, if that's how I felt then I would simply toss it in the damn trash can. But you'll also never see me make a random comment like "well I'd say your Colt piece of shit only works because it's so out of spec and loose that it doesn't know any better" :).
Haha, that's pretty much how I feel as well. The point of this thread really isn't about buying a perfect rifle, it's about diagnosing the issue at hand for whatever reason. Hence the forum name "Technical Discussion".
However, I am heartened by the fact that people are suggesting good quality choices instead of "DPMS/Oly/BM works great for me with 2 BAD's on it to be ambidextrous :p". I guess as a group we are getting more informed, although maybe missing the point sometimes in the name of "Tactical/SHTF/Zombie preparedness".
Now back to the OP intent (mine) I cut 1.75 coils off my spring, basically going slowly to where the catch is being pushed out by 2mm of "push" instead of 3-4mm. This was just an old BM LPK spring I had lying around so I figure it had it coming :)... I actually have a few springs lying around from various manufacturers (yes, I keep track) and they are NOT the same. They look slightly different, and if you install and push down on them you can feel the difference. Maybe not a lot but I would bet at least 1.0 coils worth between the least and most. Of my 5 AR's with BADs installed, my cut one only feels slightly less powerful than the rest and it is really more a sliding scale and not a hard less/more thing. Of course, all very unscientific but I have tested so many variables I might as well test one more.
Dennis.
Safe experimentation is good. I'm curious to know if this solves the issue. If it does without creating a new one, then congrats!
Mark
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Dennis,
Were you able to try the "cut spring" to see if it helped?
.
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Dennis,
Were you able to try the "cut spring" to see if it helped?
.
Nope, stupid Super Bowl party and the resulting mess used up all my free time until later this week :D. I have a fun shooting training day this weekend and I will definitely get to run it through functionality and some more rigorous shooting then.
Dennis.
Haha, that's pretty much how I feel as well. The point of this thread really isn't about buying a perfect rifle, it's about diagnosing the issue at hand for whatever reason. Hence the forum name "Technical Discussion".
However, I am heartened by the fact that people are suggesting good quality choices instead of "DPMS/Oly/BM works great for me with 2 BAD's on it to be ambidextrous :p". I guess as a group we are getting more informed, although maybe missing the point sometimes in the name of "Tactical/SHTF/Zombie preparedness".
Now back to the OP intent (mine) I cut 1.75 coils off my spring, basically going slowly to where the catch is being pushed out by 2mm of "push" instead of 3-4mm. This was just an old BM LPK spring I had lying around so I figure it had it coming :)... I actually have a few springs lying around from various manufacturers (yes, I keep track) and they are NOT the same. They look slightly different, and if you install and push down on them you can feel the difference. Maybe not a lot but I would bet at least 1.0 coils worth between the least and most. Of my 5 AR's with BADs installed, my cut one only feels slightly less powerful than the rest and it is really more a sliding scale and not a hard less/more thing. Of course, all very unscientific but I have tested so many variables I might as well test one more.
Dennis.
The spring is designed to be a squared end spring and winds up being open ended after you neuter it. I'm not sure what is worse, you operating on your rifle or hanging happy meal toys off it.
The spring is designed to be a squared end spring and winds up being open ended after you neuter it. I'm not sure what is worse, you operating on your rifle or hanging happy meal toys off it.
Ouch, now that's just not nice or in the spirit of helpful discussion...
This is just a test that will not result in permanent use regardless of the results for exactly the reason you stated. If it works, then it is either a search for a correct lower powered spring (unlikely), waiting for Magpul or others to create one (also unlikely), or just being happy something was figured out and go back to a correct spring and a normal bolt catch.
I guess even though you don't sound too happy about people actually having technical discussion on the Technical Discussion forum, you actually did contribute a very helpful fact to this thread. Albeit accidentally I am sure... :p
Have a nice day.
Dennis.
Dennis,
Why don't you reduce weight by sanding the wire down. The old gunsmith way is to spin it at a 45 degree angle against a jewelry belt sander (or other fine grit belt) for a second or two. Keep you fingers away from the end though or you can get it wound into your skin. Spin it on a steel rod/punch/small screw driver/etc. Then polish it to remove any scratches that may cause a weak spot in the wire. More challenging with such a small small spring, but results would be better than cutting coils. You can do it by hand too, just not as fast or good as the belt sander method.
Dennis,
Why don't you reduce weight by sanding the wire down. The old gunsmith way is to spin it at a 45 degree angle against a jewelry belt sander (or other fine grit belt) for a second or two. Keep you fingers away from the end though or you can get it wound into your skin. Spin it on a steel rod/punch/small screw driver/etc. Then polish it to remove any scratches that may cause a weak spot in the wire. More challenging with such a small small spring, but results would be better than cutting coils. You can do it by hand too, just not as fast or good as the belt sander method.
Now that sounds like fun :) So you hold the spring (somehow) at a 45 angle against the edge of the belt and let it "spin" down it's length rotating the spring and taking a bit off at the same time?
Definitely something I have not thought of before, does it weaken any sort of surface hardness?
Again, probably not ideal but better than cutting...
Assuming, of course, that a cut/weaker spring actually works in this case :confused:
Thanks!
Dennis.
The spring spins itself. Coil springs are tempered all the way through so not an issue. You just hold it at 45 degrees to the direction the belt travels - it is still completely parallel the full length of the spring to the belt surface. You move it back and forth a short distance so you get equal pressure across the belt/spring. And you don't want to apply any pressure to the spring or do it over the steel backing plate behind the belt, near the pulley/s. If you push you'll get a flat spot around the coil and that isn't the goal (you don't want a "D" shape instead of the original "O" cross section of the coil wire). That is unavoidable with large diameter coil wire, but with such a small spring and small rate change that you are seeking - it won't take much to reduce it - just scuff of the outside diameter will do. If you are worried about getting too close to the belt you can find a piece of rod that is bendable to create a stop - like aluminum or use your thumb nail as a stop for the spring. The thumbnail technique requires that the spring be rotating in a direction opposite of the cut end of wire. I've done it that way with small weak coils and it works OK. If you do it the other way so the sharp cut end is rotating into your thumbnail be prepared for some instant bamboo torture under nail experience :no: If your really concerned about getting too close you can tape on a small washer as a stop (again not with cut spring end rotating into it) and just polish/sand over half the spring at a time at the outer edge. The results are just harder to get even. Good luck. I'd just sand it by hand if you're worried about it - hold it on a rod with 600 grit around it. Just make sure the rod is a good fit if you are doing it by hand.
I still think you want a higher spring rate instead of a weaker one too prevent the bolt from locking at the wrong time with the bad. Bottom line play with it and see what happens. I think the spring is more than strong enough to compensate for the bad components, but everyone's gun is different so who knows. It's not like that spring costs much. Maybe you'll end up affecting a change with a Magpul product. I personally think it is working as designed.
Oh well.
A bolt catch spring with 1.75 coils cut off only helped marginally.
A visibly shorter new carbine action spring (10.5") actually did not help at all.
I thought this might happen so at the range I switched back to a new bolt catch spring, my Sprinco blue action spring, and a H buffer and happily shot up 400+ rounds of drills with no issues with cycling or bolt lock issues with any magazines.
It seems my Noveske 16" midlength just does not like any sort of BAD in any way :)
Dennis.
Oh well.
A bolt catch spring with 1.75 coils cut off only helped marginally.
A visibly shorter new carbine action spring (10.5") actually did not help at all.
I thought this might happen so at the range I switched back to a new bolt catch spring, my Sprinco blue action spring, and a H buffer and happily shot up 400+ rounds of drills with no issues with cycling or bolt lock issues with any magazines.
It seems my Noveske 16" midlength just does not like any sort of BAD in any way :)
Dennis.
==================================
Dennis, are you saying the BAD on the Noveske worked locking the bolt back with the Blue Sprinco but would not hold the bolt back with Noveske's stock action springs?
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==================================
Dennis, are you saying the BAD on the Noveske worked locking the bolt back with the Blue Sprinco but would not hold the bolt back with Noveske's stock action springs?
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Only the upper is a complete Noveske, the lower is reliable old CA pre-ban that has not had any issues with many other uppers.
The Sprinco spring mostly worked, but there were still failures with certain mags. The carbine spring I tried was a brand new Stag one, which worked worse exactly the same as the original LMT carbine spring that was previously in the lower for thousands of rounds.
Of course, I am not sure the Springs are the only cause of my issue. I also tried a Wolff XP spring which did not help either, but the gun still ran so I was completely perplexed.
Basically, I am done trying to get a BAD to work with this upper and I am happily shooting without it! Now my issue is how to handle muscle memory issues with my other BAD equipped carbines.
Dennis.
Hopefully you can just accept and move on. I doubt I could be as accepting as that. Would drive me crazy trying to figure out why...
Mark
Hopefully you can just accept and move on. I doubt I could be as accepting as that. Would drive me crazy trying to figure out why...
Mark
Oh, believe me, there is a LOT of painful sucking it up involved with my moving on here...
I am trying to quell the urge to buy a BCM midlength to see how that works out... Or to go back to carbine gas systems only given that I care more about reliability than a "softer" 5.56 recoil push.
Dennis.
Ouch!
That is an expensive experiment, but would it tell you why the Noveske upper did not work with the BAD?
Seems like the answer is one of those mysteries that may never be solved.
Cannot tell another person how to feel and what to do, but I would be grateful that the carbine works well and run it hard.
Good luck,
Mark
I had a BAD on my MP and ran it flawless for several thousand rounds. I recently sold that gun and assembled a mid length billet Mega build. The BAD wouldn't fit the billet upper, so I ordered a EBRv2. It looks cool and fully replaces the bolt release lever. I am having the same issue with my bolt not locking back. I'm here to tell you, it's not just BAD's that are bad!
I can jam an empty mag (and I mean jam!) and the bolt will catch. After running through a mag to empty, could the mag lip move down? Or, is the weight of the lever fouling the function? From what I've read in this thread, it must be the weight.
When someone finds a fix, please spread the news.
I had a BAD on my MP and ran it flawless for several thousand rounds. I recently sold that gun and assembled a mid length billet Mega build. The BAD wouldn't fit the billet upper, so I ordered a EBRv2. It looks cool and fully replaces the bolt release lever. I am having the same issue with my bolt not locking back. I'm here to tell you, it's not just BAD's that are bad!
I can jam an empty mag (and I mean jam!) and the bolt will catch. After running through a mag to empty, could the mag lip move down? Or, is the weight of the lever fouling the function? From what I've read in this thread, it must be the weight.
When someone finds a fix, please spread the news.
I tried an EBRv2 as well and while pretty, it did not function fully correctly either. It is definitely a weight thing. The problem is what are you going to change to make up for the extra weight/leverage/inertia? I tried everything I and others on this board could think of without success. Others have had success with various fixes. Read thru the thread and see...
Good luck!
Dennis.
Ouch!
That is an expensive experiment, but would it tell you why the Noveske upper did not work with the BAD?
Seems like the answer is one of those mysteries that may never be solved.
Cannot tell another person how to feel and what to do, but I would be grateful that the carbine works well and run it hard.
Good luck,
Mark
It would be more of a see if it works eventual replacement, but I do love how accurate Noveske's are and my other ones are incredible so I am loathe to change. More importantly, the other choice is to switch back to good old carbine gas systems and likely have no issues other than a bit harsher recoil.
I ran the gun hard this past weekend with 400+ rounds in a day of drills and the gun ran great with Frog Lube with no hiccups. However, I am actually used to my AR's running great since I do most of my own work and learned everything the hard way over the past 20 years. This was just a new issue that surprised and intrigued me.
Dennis.
I can relate.
Purchased a Noveske upper, 16" lo pro recce, and assembled the lower using quality parts. They play nice together. I would be frustrated, in wanting to understand why, if my BAD caused issues.
Since I only have one other AR15, a full bore Service setup, if the BAD did not work on my carbine, I would not lose much sleep and dump it.
Since you have a number of other weapons with the BAD, can see how you would want consistency, and consider changing the upper.
If you want to go to a carbine length gas system, wouldn't it be cheapest to simply change the barrel, gas block and gas tube?
Mark
I can relate.
Purchased a Noveske upper, 16" lo pro recce, and assembled the lower using quality parts. They play nice together. I would be frustrated, in wanting to understand why, if my BAD caused issues.
Since I only have one other AR15, a full bore Service setup, if the BAD did not work on my carbine, I would not lose much sleep and dump it.
Since you have a number of other weapons with the BAD, can see how you would want consistency, and consider changing the upper.
If you want to go to a carbine length gas system, wouldn't it be cheapest to simply change the barrel, gas block and gas tube?
Mark
It seems a shame to split up a factory Noveske upper. I forgot I have a MRP CQB upper sitting around too, so maybe I'll just a 16" carbine gas barrel for that. I actually think that's what my initial desire was but they didn't have "midlength" barrels so I got the Noveske... :fie:
Dennis.
I am trying to quell the urge to buy a BCM midlength to see how that works out... Or to go back to carbine gas systems only given that I care more about reliability than a "softer" 5.56 recoil push.
Dennis.
Funny you say that, since Grant's currently building me a BCM lower to go with my BCM LW middy upper and I have a complete DD LW middy upper headed my direction to put on my current DD lower :D.
I ordered a new BAD lever last week to test again with my BCM (since I gave my old BAD to a friend). With the BCM carbine spring and the H-buffer, the rifle locked back every time while using a 20 round Pmag and .223 PMC ammo. The exact same set up would not lock back every time with the Tactical Link lever. I haven't thrown them on the scale yet, but by feel the TL seems to weigh a lot more than the BAD.....go figure.
The exact same set up would not lock back every time with the Tactical Link lever. I haven't thrown them on the scale yet, but by feel the TL seems to weigh a lot more than the BAD.....go figure.
I wonder if since a few grams of weight is the difference between working and not working with a mid and a bolt catch lever extension, it might be prudent not to use one at all... All my "overgassed" carbines run like champs with a BAD and even when one was causing drag with a MUR upper and worse.
I guess I'm talking against my OP now, but maybe some mids just aren't meant to work with a BAD, even if you can get it to work...
Dennis.
RogerinTPA
02-16-11, 21:25
The only issue I've had with the bad lever not holding the bolt back was on well worn Pmags. The bolt didn't lock back on those mags even when the BAD lever was removed. On further inspection, the tang/lever on the bolt catch, which is lifted by the follower, was sliding off the back of it and down, causing the malfunction. A friend had bolt lock issues with his lower when using the BAD lever. We just bent it almost straight, and the problem was resolved.
I wonder if since a few grams of weight is the difference between working and not working with a mid and a bolt catch lever extension, it might be prudent not to use one at all... All my "overgassed" carbines run like champs with a BAD and even when one was causing drag with a MUR upper and worse.
I guess I'm talking against my OP now, but maybe some mids just aren't meant to work with a BAD, even if you can get it to work...
Dennis.
I'm going to try the BAD on my DD as soon as it gets finished up. They either both need to function 100% with it, or the BAD will be retired and life will go on. What I don't want to do is run a BAD on one and not the other, I think for me that would prove to be counter productive.
I wonder if since a few grams of weight is the difference between working and not working with a mid and a bolt catch lever extension, it might be prudent not to use one at all... All my "overgassed" carbines run like champs with a BAD and even when one was causing drag with a MUR upper and worse.
I guess I'm talking against my OP now, but maybe some mids just aren't meant to work with a BAD, even if you can get it to work...
Dennis.
Come to think of it, my M&P carbine functioned fine with a BAD, but my middy doesn't. What's the connection? You may be on to something here inspector.
Question... For those having failure to lock after emptying a mag, will your bolt lock back if you insert an empty mag, with bolt down, and then rack the CH?
Come to think of it, my M&P carbine functioned fine with a BAD, but my middy doesn't. What's the connection? You may be on to something here inspector.
Question... For those having failure to lock after emptying a mag, will your bolt lock back if you insert an empty mag, with bolt down, and then rack the CH?
Just to throw a wrench in that theory, my M&P carbine hated the BAD, and didn't lock back about 40% of the time. At the weekend, I tried it on my Middy....and it seems to be OK! But - it was just out of curiosity; it is going on ebay this week, I just don't trust them now.
Re your question there - doing a dry drill as you describe, the bolt would always lock back.
I've been following this thread for a while now, and I think my own conclusion is unchanged - the BADs work on some rifles, and on some they don't....and we still don't know why! :)
Out of spec this, that and the other has been talked about; but at the end of the day, on otherwise perfectly functioning rifles, the only thing that is truly out of spec are the BAD levers themselves - a 3-4inch piece of metal hanging off a very small bolt release paddle which was not designed for that.
It appears as though when the OP switches out uppers it works just fine. If a different BCG is in the upper that works fine with the BAD, then I would be inclined to say it is the bolt. Since the bolt is what engages the bolt catch, it would appear as though the bolt is not moving far enough back by possibly millimeters, when the BAD is on the release. I would try swapping out complete BCG's between the uppers and testing it. Then swap only the bolts (each upper has the orig carrier) and see what happens.
What I think the OP needs to do ultimately is put the upper that works 100% with the BAD on, and start introducing components from the failing upper until he is able to reproduce the problem. If unable to reproduce the problem, then the issue is the gas port in my mind. As that failing upper is not getting quite enough gas to push the BCG that fraction of a millimeter back when the BAD is in place.
Come to think of it, my M&P carbine functioned fine with a BAD, but my middy doesn't. What's the connection? You may be on to something here inspector.
The carbine is over gassed because it is a carbine. Carbines by their nature have greater recoil. The bolt is traveling far enough back with the carbine to get engaged by the catch with the BAD hanging on it.
The middy on the other hand should have a softer recoil, meaning the bolt may not travel far enough back to engage the catch when the the BAD is hanging on it because the BAD may have shifted it ever so slightly.
The difference between a middy and a carbine is a middy gets less gas. Less gas means a softer recoiling rifle. Softer recoil means BCG not traveling as far back. Not traveling as far back means BAD may cause BHO not to be engaged.
Question... For those having failure to lock after emptying a mag, will your bolt lock back if you insert an empty mag, with bolt down, and then rack the CH?[/QUOTE]
Almost every time, when an empty mag is in and you manually rack the CH, the BHo will engage. Why? Because you will almost always pull the CH far enough back to more than clear the BHO and the bolt will engage.
Come to think of it, my M&P carbine functioned fine with a BAD, but my middy doesn't. What's the connection? You may be on to something here inspector.
Question... For those having failure to lock after emptying a mag, will your bolt lock back if you insert an empty mag, with bolt down, and then rack the CH?
Yes mine will lock back every time when cycling the bolt manually. Also, all my Pmags are basically still new in the grand scheme of things.
My BCM 16" middy has about 1,000 rnd thru it. With the BAD installed there's very little slop in it, so I'd say that the bolt release is fairly tight since it's all practically new.
Here's what I've got so far (this is with lower pressure .223 brass ammo):
1. With the carbine buffer, blue Springco spring, and BAD it would lock back 100% of the time.
2. With the H buffer, blue Springco spring, and BAD it would lock back about 75% of the time. (with 5.56 ammo 100%)
3. With the H buffer, blue Springco spring, and heavier TL lever it would lock back about 50% of the time.
4. With the H buffer, white Springco spring, and TL lever it would lock back about 50% of the time.
5. With the H buffer, BCM carbine spring, and TL lever it would lock back about 75% of the time.
6. With the H buffer, BCM carbine spring, and BAD lever it has locked back 100% of the time so far (but I'm going to test with Wolf ammo tomorrow).
If I have to choose, I'll keep the H buffer over the BAD. I plan to do some additional testing once I get the DD middy built.
Maybe timing is the issue. Maybe it is that last few mm of bolt travel slowing down on the middy, combined with a slightly slower engagement speed of the catch (because of the bad lever's added inertia for the spring to overcome) that is causing the malfunction. This is hurting my brain too much! I think I'd move on from the bad if it was giving me this much trouble, too. Glad it is getting better. Should be interesting to see more of your tests with the DD middy.
alpha.kilo
02-21-11, 00:33
In November and December of last year, I ordered a red and a blue Sprinco spring along with a selection of buffers and played around with a couple of my carbines. One was a middy Noveske and the other three were all Colts. All were 16 inch barrels of various round counts between 2K and 15K. Also, all four carbines had BAD levers installed.
The purpose was to see what would run in MY guns reference springs and buffers. Having the BAD levers in place never crossed my mind as being an issue. They remained on my guns throughout my little experiment.
I don't want to bore everybody with all of the data I collected. But what I do believe is relevant to this thread is that all of the carbines, including the Noveske middy, ran fine with a Blue spring and an H buffer. 100%. I had no failure to lock back on any magazine with that combination. In no way did I have any malfunction related to a BAD lever.
Mags used were my well worn Pmag training mags. Ammo varied from PMC .223 55 grain to 5.56 nato in 55 and 62 grains. None of the guns were cleaned for two months; but they were lubed before each shoot. Shooting was done in standing position with carbine held loosely at the hip.
Pretty crazy how some guns won't run with the smallest of add-ons, while others run like a Formula 1 racing engine. The adage of thoroughly testing every bit of kit you wish to add to your weapon system seems to be born out by the experiences in this thread.
AK
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