View Full Version : You wanted one, now is your chance. The HK MR556 is officially available...
variablebinary
02-02-11, 03:42
Here we go, many years later, after all the drooling, panting and begging, now is your chance to really own a civilian version of the HK416.
Enjoy!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=214455679
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/214455000/214455679/pix376992806.jpg
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/214455000/214455679/pix118389186.jpg
PLEASE DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND DO NOT START CRYING ABOUT THE PRICE. EITHER YOU WANT IT, OR YOU DON'T. IT'S A FREE MARKET.
I'll wait for the A2 :rolleyes:
Sexy. Thanks for the heads up Variable.
El Pistolero
02-02-11, 06:01
Thank you Iraqgunz, the last thing I want to read is a thread on the HK with 2/3 of it being about price. Somebody will definitely want it, at any price.
I'm not an HK fan in any way (I don't hate them I just don't follow them) but I'm happy to see this out on the market. Is the upper compatible with standard mil-spec AR-15 lowers? I remember reading something a long time ago how the civilian version was incompatible, hopefully that's not the case. Nice rifle, looks heavy though.
I'm surprised at the style of rear sight. Is that the issue sight? I wonder how that grip feels and if it will fit a standard AR lower.
El Pistolero
02-02-11, 06:32
I'm surprised at the style of rear sight. Is that the issue sight?
Yes, those are the standard 416 sights.
I'm surprised at the style of rear sight. Is that the issue sight? I wonder how that grip feels and if it will fit a standard AR lower.
It is supposed to fit on any current lower, and once they are out for awhile HK will be shipping separate uppers for sale. That is what I have been gathering from the WWW, but who knows.
Gunfighter 9
02-02-11, 07:19
Pass.
It may have been measured in glacial movements, but at least HK brought a proper semi-automatic rifle to the US civilian market. Kudos to them.
they would have done much better with it back in 2005 or so!
Aren't these HBAR?
yes, 9 lbs. with an empty mag. :(
I wonder how that grip feels and if it will fit a standard AR lower.
Feels pretty good(I prefer MIAD), has storage, fits standard AR lowers and have been available for several years. I just sold one.
I have been living under a stone, will this lower accept standard AR uppers?
teamacacia
02-02-11, 10:37
I have been living under a stone, will this lower accept standard AR uppers?
I believe they are compatible with the standard lower and that it might be possible to just purchase the upper (but I'm not 100% on that last part)
Several months ago Botach Tactical had these for about $2700 presale. I do not know if they currently have any in stock.
caelumatra
02-02-11, 10:48
I'm surprised at the style of rear sight. Is that the issue sight?
They talked about it at shot.
I watched it the other day, but I can't remember if its this one (part2) or part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gv6EToI3gQ
Couple questions/observations:
1. Is HK pinning the buffer tube to the lower? There appears to be a hole in the required location.
2. Sight mounts: Phillips screws?! You'd think HK would know better than to use an easily stripped Phillips head screw to attach the sights to the rail. I'd find a slotted type replacement screw if it were mine. At least if something loosened up in the field, I'd be able to tighten it with an improvised tool. Or is the PG storage compartment there so one can carry a #2 phillips screwdriver as part of the kit?
yes, 9 lbs. with an empty mag. :(
9LBS empty with no accessories? Pass!
I'll wait until the prices come down...
What a let down. I think HKs best days are well behind them. Personal preference obviously but I would rather have an FN SCAR.
Cameron
What a let down. I think HKs best days are well behind them. Personal preference obviously but I would rather have an FN SCAR.
Cameron
I agree. I had actually put some money aside for one of these when they were announced, but after getting more and more info on them I decided to put the money elsewhere. Nothing really new, I wouldn't mind picking up a 10.5" 416 upper, but even then, meh.
HK used to be at the front of weapons development, I feel like they have been a little lax lately.
<--- Old school. I'll stick with my Colts. Pass.
Now, a few years down the road when/if this piston fad catches on, I might look for a Colt piston upper... Maybe.
Already have Colt ARs and a SCAR. If I weren't so loyal to my local gun store, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Always good to see more selection in the AR arena but I'll stay with what I've got.
I am glad it’s out for sale. Not my cup of tea but it is still cool.
I am glad it’s out for sale. Not my cup of tea but it is still cool.
This about sums it up for me. :)
variablebinary
02-02-11, 18:39
Everyone take a moment and acknowledge the significance of HK moving carbine production to the USA, in addition to making the HK45 here.
The more people we have working in this industry, the better off we are when it comes to combating communist liberals.
Kudo to HK, maybe they are finally giving up on "you suck and we hate you".
More choices are always better.
Everyone take a moment and acknowledge the significance of HK moving carbine production to the USA.........
====================================
Wonder if it also means that they are feeling the financial crunch and are having to stoop to lowly civilians for an infusion of cash??
Just wondering... :)
.
I will get one, but then again I already have a 416 upper so it would kind of make sense for me. I just passed on a SCAR-H because I knew this was coming fairly soon.
But I will wait for my local FFL to get his order in and save the $495.
====================================
Wonder if it also means that they are feeling the financial crunch and are having to stoop to lowly civilians for an infusion of cash??
Just wondering... :)
.
My understanding of the MR556 is that they've hurdled every ATF and bureaucratic step to produce as much of a non-neutered HK416 for American consumption well before the economy went tits up.
Maybe this will standardize the AR piston market..
Can anyone confirm if the upper can be dropped on an M16 lower?
-Will I have to purchase a 416 carrier group?
-Will the 416 carrier group function in the MR556?
-Will the M16 hammer/sear function with the MR556 upper?
-What effect will the lack of chrome lining have on a barrel that sees heavy automatic fire?
What I'd really like to buy is an IAR complete upper. Also, I'm curious what that hole is behind the selector switch. The answers to those questions will drive my decision to purchase this, or not. If I do move forward, I'll hold off for a while. I jumped on the SCAR early, and won't be early adopting again.
Two short years ago I would have been all over this.
As has been said before, it's not my cup of tea. But it will make someone happy. More choices = better.
What a let down. I think HKs best days are well behind them. Personal preference obviously but I would rather have an FN SCAR.
I've used the 16, its a treat. Its superior to an M4 in every way unless you are extremely attached to your AR muscle memory. Definitely superior to a G36 jammed into an AR receiver shooting ~4MOA groups.
Everyone take a moment and acknowledge the significance of HK moving carbine production to the USA, in addition to making the HK45 here.
The more people we have working in this industry, the better off we are when it comes to combating communist liberals.
No doubt, we didn’t have another SL8/USC forced on us. That’s why I think it’s cool. It might not be 100% perfect in some peoples opinion but it sure is a step back in the right direction for them.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-02-11, 22:30
I would like to see some real-world accuracy figures. It seems like HK USA made a lot of accuracy mods to the rifle, and would like to see the result.
I would also like to see HK follow up with a thinner barrel profile (I don't care about chrome lining) and a longer rail.
It is nice to see the rifle system that has pushed so many others to the side in real world competition come to civilians. Of course, if HK thought Delta, the Marines and various other outfits had tough standards, they have haven't seen anything yet. Their next challenge: INTERNET COMMANDOS! Give it up HK. Nothing can defeat them.
Maybe this will standardize the AR piston market..
THIS ...................
Waiting for the SBR/ SBR upper...
variablebinary
02-02-11, 22:53
THIS ...................
+1
Time to weed out all the garbage that has infiltrated the piston AR15 market.
Sadly, there is no shortage of bubbas that will line up for a SIG 516 or any of the million other pathetic conversions lingering out there. Mostly because they are cheap.
If I were buying a piston AR15, I wouldn't get anything but an HK at this point. Lets be honest, that is what everyone wanted to begin with, not an LWRC, SIG, Ruger, Adams, CMMG, POF, STAG, S&W, LMT, Titan, Ares, Addax, Ospey, RRA, PWS...
Did I miss anyone?
Before anyone jumps up my ass to tell me how great their piston is, blah blah blah. I wasn't making commentary on your toy, but rather most wanted an HK 416, and settled for brand X in HK's absence.
Now that HK is actually here there is no reason to settle for the Monkees when you can have the Beatles.
I truly believe and I have said this to customers when asked about why I don't mess with piston uppers is that if there was a standard that was followed, they would have caught on faster and would have been more reliable by now. No sense dealing with the extra weight and headache, go DI.
Anybody try to put a pmag in one yet?
The largest obstacle that HK had was that they did not have the American manufacturing base that FN, and other companies already had.
Now that they have Plants operational in the USA, one in Columbus, GA. we will see more and more HK products coming online with a mix of German and US made components with the same Quality control of the true German counterparts.
I have used the 416 and granted it is a little heavy,but it works and works. I know that my next AR will be the MR556.
variablebinary
02-03-11, 07:27
Count me in for an MR556, but probably not this year. I'll wait a bit. I've got other builds in the works first.
However, if HK were to drop this onto the public, I can see myself being first in line to get one
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/41/l_8c451baaccdcf8d9e4ff5ed26d43689c.jpg
Like the SCAR, if I can't SBR it with factory parts and get spares easily, my interest falls down to zero. As long as companies keep getting this wrong, I'll continue to overlook all new guns, no matter how cool they are
Please forgive my ignorance everyone. But what does the 416 really offer that makes it better and any other DI or piston AR already out there? I have never really paid much attention to the platform since I am not a big piston fan and they were pretty much unattainable.
+1
Time to weed out all the garbage that has infiltrated the piston AR15 market.
Sadly, there is no shortage of bubbas that will line up for a SIG 516 or any of the million other pathetic conversions lingering out there. Mostly because they are cheap.
If I were buying a piston AR15, I wouldn't get anything but an HK at this point. Lets be honest, that is what everyone wanted to begin with, not an LWRC, SIG, Ruger, Adams, CMMG, POF, STAG, S&W, LMT, Titan, Ares, Addax, Ospey, RRA, PWS...
Did I miss anyone?
Before anyone jumps up my ass to tell me how great their piston is, blah blah blah. I wasn't making commentary on your toy, but rather most wanted an HK 416, and settled for brand X in HK's absence.
Now that HK is actually here there is no reason to settle for the Monkees when you can have the Beatles.
Yeap.
Its now time for the shake out.
I want these other brands killed off.
I have one on backorder thru my FFL friend. The HK416 has done relatively well in military sales and I'd like to put a little more trigger time on one. I don't particularly like the weight aspect but this is just going to be a range gun for me.
Anybody try to put a pmag in one yet?
im curious, I know the g36 doesnt run pmags well but magpul is working on mags to accomodate them, emags i think?
Hunter Rose
02-03-11, 12:00
im curious, I know the g36 doesnt run pmags well but magpul is working on mags to accomodate them, emags i think?
E-Mags have been out for awhile now and were designed for the SCAR and HK416 where P-Mags didn't work. They would work in the MR556. Europeans have had P-Mags work in some of their MR223s, so they may work in the MR556. Someone will have to get one and try it out.
Won't work. Magwell is the same as the 416, which is too long on the front end, and interferes with the seating of a Pmag because of the nature of how it's curved on its frontstrap. It binds where the frontstrap of the Pmag meets the front of the magwell and won't seat.
Emags work because of their lesser wall profile.
TD ACRs work.
USGI mags work, but be mindful of them. It's possible, upon loading/push-pull, or whatever, to overseat those and cause a whole slew of other problems. Not horribly common, mostly just another reason to inspect your metal mags, don't freakin' get posessive over them like some people do (they're just magazines; they're not love), hammer-treat problem mags and get replacements as required.
Everyone take a moment and acknowledge the significance of HK moving carbine production to the USA, in addition to making the HK45 here.
The more people we have working in this industry, the better off we are when it comes to combating communist liberals.
You are right.
Cameron
I don't get it.
Everything that is 'wrong' with pistons is 'wrong' with the HK, even more so. The goofy magwell makes using standard Pmags impossible and the rail height requires completely different sights and scope mounts. The 'esteemed' membership of M4C has been berating piston owners for years that pistons are too heavy, too expensive, and chock full of proprietary parts.
But now that HK has released a rifle that is too heavy, too expensive, and full of proprietary parts the same M4C intelligentsia is falling over themselves with glee and ecstasy.
A month ago, piston ARs were evil and vile stuff. "No benefit over a DI!" was shouted from the M4C roof tops. If you owned a piston AR you were an idiot and a moron. Now that HK kicks one out, it's a whole new ball game. It's an earth shaking event. We are to gleefully celebrate the establishment of an HK factory in the US employing a handful of Americans. At the same time we are to wish for the complete demise of other US companies that have been making piston ARs for years, employing hundreds if not thousands of people. All because HK has made a piston AR, and that changes EVERYTHING!
I'm sure the HK416 or whatever this is called is great. I'm sure the M27 will serve the USMC well. HK makes great stuff, no doubt. I love that they've put a factory on US shores and might compete more fully in the US market.
But it's still just a piston AR.
I don't get it.
Everything that is 'wrong' with pistons is 'wrong' with the HK, even more so. The goofy magwell makes using standard Pmags impossible and the rail height requires completely different sights and scope mounts. The 'esteemed' membership of M4C has been berating piston owners for years that pistons are too heavy, too expensive, and chock full of proprietary parts.
But now that HK has released a rifle that is too heavy, too expensive, and full of proprietary parts the same M4C intelligentsia is falling over themselves with glee and ecstasy.
A month ago, piston ARs were evil and vile stuff. "No benefit over a DI!" was shouted from the M4C roof tops. If you owned a piston AR you were an idiot and a moron. Now that HK kicks one out, it's a whole new ball game. It's an earth shaking event. We are to gleefully celebrate the establishment of an HK factory in the US employing a handful of Americans. At the same time we are to wish for the complete demise of other US companies that have been making piston ARs for years, employing hundreds if not thousands of people. All because HK has made a piston AR, and that changes EVERYTHING!
I'm sure the HK416 or whatever this is called is great. I'm sure the M27 will serve the USMC well. HK makes great stuff, no doubt. I love that they've put a factory on US shores and might compete more fully in the US market.
But it's still just a piston AR.
==================================
Would you call that "closet fanboyism"?
;)
.
eternal24k
02-03-11, 14:21
so what exactly is the hole in the rearward portion of the lower?
And it will only standardize piston ARs if it is obtainable and affordable. Look at the "splash" the ACR made. And LWRC and LMT have been around, but new and cheaper retro fit kits keep on popping up all the time, so I doubt the HK is going to do much.
Like all of the other piston ARs, I am still waiting for a thorough, well executed, and independent review/torture test.
A month ago, piston ARs were evil and vile stuff. "No benefit over a DI!"
Not quite right. Everybody that squalls about this does so only because they conveniently forget to add the "....for the money spent..." aspect that makes the actual bottom line of the sentiment.
Which makes sense, since if they could be bothered to remember that small yet profound part of it, they wouldn't be able to accuse anybody NOT in direct lockstep with them of being anti-piston for no better reason than it's not a DI gun.
It IS just another piston gun. It merely has the distinction of being an even more expensive piston gun than its competition.
Heavyweight
02-03-11, 15:21
It IS just another piston gun. It merely has the distinction of being an even more expensive piston gun than its competition.
Bingo! The new argument is going to be, "What does the HK do that my $1,000 M&P15 PS doesn't"?
Heavyweight
Belmont31R
02-03-11, 15:34
I don't get it.
Everything that is 'wrong' with pistons is 'wrong' with the HK, even more so. The goofy magwell makes using standard Pmags impossible and the rail height requires completely different sights and scope mounts. The 'esteemed' membership of M4C has been berating piston owners for years that pistons are too heavy, too expensive, and chock full of proprietary parts.
But now that HK has released a rifle that is too heavy, too expensive, and full of proprietary parts the same M4C intelligentsia is falling over themselves with glee and ecstasy.
A month ago, piston ARs were evil and vile stuff. "No benefit over a DI!" was shouted from the M4C roof tops. If you owned a piston AR you were an idiot and a moron. Now that HK kicks one out, it's a whole new ball game. It's an earth shaking event. We are to gleefully celebrate the establishment of an HK factory in the US employing a handful of Americans. At the same time we are to wish for the complete demise of other US companies that have been making piston ARs for years, employing hundreds if not thousands of people. All because HK has made a piston AR, and that changes EVERYTHING!
I'm sure the HK416 or whatever this is called is great. I'm sure the M27 will serve the USMC well. HK makes great stuff, no doubt. I love that they've put a factory on US shores and might compete more fully in the US market.
But it's still just a piston AR.
If were to mess with any piston it would be HK...but no Im not going to buy a $3k AR15 that weighs more than my SR25 by almost a pound.
Full disclosure: I'm rather ambivalent on the whole piston thing. I have a piston AR, and like it a lot. But I have DI rifles that I like even more. I think the benefits of the piston system are oversold, but the negatives are way over blown too. I'm not expecting anyone to march in lock-step with me to Piston Land, because I'm not going there myself.
I never quite understood the piston hate (and it runs deep around here). I understand even less how that hate just evaporates when HK releases a piston AR.
My core question remains: If the major faults of a piston AR are that it's too heavy, too expensive, and full of proprietary parts, why does the HK get a pass even though it is all those things (and more with that magwell)?
If this is just a HK fangasm, ok I get that. Who hasn't seen that. HK people are almost as bad as the 1911 people.
But I find it hard to take seriously anyone who says that pistons ARs suck because they are heavy, expensive, and full of proprietary parts but also says that the HK piston AR is awesome. That's pretty retarded, even for the internet.
Belmont31R
02-03-11, 15:44
Full disclosure: I'm rather ambivalent on the whole piston thing. I have a piston AR, and like it a lot. But I have DI rifles that I like even more. I think the benefits of the piston system are oversold, but the negatives are way over blown too. I'm not expecting anyone to march in lock-step with me to Piston Land, because I'm not going there myself.
I never quite understood the piston hate (and it runs deep around here). I understand even less how that hate just evaporates when HK releases a piston AR.
My core question remains: If the major faults of a piston AR are that it's too heavy, too expensive, and full of proprietary parts, why does the HK get a pass even though it is all those things (and more with that magwell)?
If this is just a HK fangasm, ok I get that. Who hasn't seen that. HK people are almost as bad as the 1911 people.
But I find it hard to take seriously anyone who says that pistons ARs suck because they are heavy, expensive, and full of proprietary parts but also says that the HK piston AR is awesome. That's pretty retarded, even for the internet.
I don't like piston guns in general because most of the companies putting them out have been using their customers as beta testers. The DI system is pretty well refined while the piston guns are pretty new. How many different problems have had to be corrected in the past?
Proprietary parts don't bother me too much since I own an SR15...just as long as I can actually get spares.
The mag issue is also stupid with the 416/MR.
I never quite understood the piston hate (and it runs deep around here). I understand even less how that hate just evaporates when HK releases a piston AR.
My core question remains: If the major faults of a piston AR are that it's too heavy, too expensive, and full of proprietary parts, why does the HK get a pass even though it is all those things (and more with that magwell)?
The HK 416 piston is one of the few that is engineered to be a piston AR15, instead of a piston modification slapped on a regular AR15.
HK will also be around forever.
I can't say the same for companies like Adam's, Osprey, Titan, etc. I can't see these companies being around in 20 years.
Will I own an HK416? Yes, but I'm not in a hurry to go out an buy one until an SBR option is avaliable that doesn't cost $7000.
Will I own any other piston AR15? I highly doubt it.
Will I use a piston AR15 as "my go to gun"? Doubt it.
I also don't really care to use the HK because it is so expensive. It will just sit in my reference collection and I really can't justify using it with importation bans looming on the horizon.
The price doesn't bother me NEARLY as much as the weight. I can appreciate the significance of HK bringing this product to market, but I'm having hard time finding the appeal for a 5.56 carbine that weighs 9 pounds; especially when that's before I put on my usual Aimpoint/mount, light, etc. I don't feel this is an unreasonable criticism.
I do hope that this will help herald some sort of standardization of piston systems.
The price doesn't bother me NEARLY as much as the weight. I can appreciate the significance of HK bringing this product to market, but I'm having hard time finding the appeal for a 5.56 carbine that weighs 9 pounds; especially when that's before I put on my usual Aimpoint/mount, light, etc. I don't feel this is an unreasonable criticism.
I do hope that this will help herald some sort of standardization of piston systems.
At nearly nine pounds, it's a bit beefy for a carbine.
It IS just another piston gun. It merely has the distinction of being an even more expensive piston gun than its competition.
It's also the most combat proven piston carbine, and developed by a major firearms manufacturer as well--one with a long track record of providing guns to many countries' militaries.
I'm comfortable with agreeing that it's the Smartest Retard.
Not arguing the quality of the weapon, nor of the success of HK's account managers and contracts department. Not the point. It's a matter of public record that my own gun club is fielding them as we speak, and therefore there is a niche for them in the civilian market; given.
What will end up showing whether the 416 or the 556 passes the sniff test or not will be this: can anybody besides those in the manufacturer's host region get spare parts, or not? Whether they get contracts or not, THAT'S what always LOSES contracts for them. In the civilian market, substitute the word CUSTOMERS.
An American factory is a fine first step, since it will be staffed largely by Americans, who are used to the US model of CS and supply-support. Only time will ultimately tell if their Euro overlords allow them to practice that. Fingers crossed.
I truly think that the REAL educated M4C argument here isn't that piston guns are bad because they are too heavy or not proven in battle or my Adams Arms piston is better or not as good as your LWRC.
The real educated argument here SHOULD be.....
Why isn't there a standard?
Why are there different versions of bolt carriers?
Why are the piston systems that destroy the receiver extensions still out there? Why would you run an operating system that causes undue wear to your weapon?
It's my opinion that these are the real piston issues that are questioned here. Heavy piston rifles are an inevitability the real issue is that there is no standard. If HK had all of the cons fixed except for the weight, then they should have set the piston standard.
Why isn't there a standard?
1. Because different companies have different beliefs as to what is best and are still trying to outinnovate the other.
2. Because this is so relatively new, the designs are covered by patents or whatever. The AR-15 is old enough that patents have expired, so other companies are free to copy them. This is why various companies can copy Colt's design.
If a given company did come out with the ultimate piston design, it would be a violation of patent to copy they for a certain period of time.
Please forgive my ignorance everyone. But what does the 416 really offer that makes it better and any other DI or piston AR already out there? I have never really paid much attention to the platform since I am not a big piston fan and they were pretty much unattainable.
If you like to shoot out of your garden pond while listening to techno music, a DI Colt apparently just won't cut the mustard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjMH94PuT_I
I'm comfortable with agreeing that it's the Smartest Retard.
If the gun's a 'retard', why was it adopted by the most elite US military unit?
If it were half as problem plagued as some people claim, why didn't it get dumped after a few months of use?
Now, it is valid to say that the gun may not be the best choice for the average user, who is not going to need something geared to extreme use, and given the gun's cost/weight/etc, a standard top grade AR like a Colt/LMT/BCM/Daniel Defense might be a better choice.
variablebinary
02-04-11, 03:27
I don't get it.
But it's still just a piston AR.
I think you're greatly mis-characterizing the position of many members on this forum.
The MR556 is heavy. The MR556 is expensive.
However, the MR556 is not just another "piston AR" by any means, because it was designed from the ground up to facilitate its purpose. This is a drastically different concept compared to LWRC, or anyone else doing retrofits.
The outcome being the HK416, which has quickly become one of the most revered weapon systems on the planet in a very short period of time.
So yeah, if there is some enthusiasm revolving around the MR556, there is a good reason for it.
I don't like piston guns in general because most of the companies putting them out have been using their customers as beta testers...
It worked for McNamara and the DI M16 :haha:
E-Mags have been out for awhile now and were designed for the SCAR and HK416 where P-Mags didn't work. They would work in the MR556. Europeans have had P-Mags work in some of their MR223s, so they may work in the MR556. Someone will have to get one and try it out.
HK416 magazine well was designed to work with military standard STANAG 4179 magazine. To reduce dust and debris come into action around magazine, HK tightened and lengthened magazine well to follow STANAG magazine contour and dimensions. Original M16/M4 magazine well is little loose. On the other hand Magpul P-mag was made "oversized". This reduce play in M16/M4 magazine well (gives some benefit as HK tighter magwell) and allows more structurally rigid magazine body. HK went with NATO standard magazine and modified weapon for it, Magpul made magazine for specific weapon system. No fault on either side. Please note that biggest Magpul military contract for magazines is for STANAG compliant E-Mag.
Brief report on matter of Magpul magazines in HK lower receiver:
1. P-Mag 30 - does not sit in magwell. Need some grinding and sanding to fit and fall free. Doable but not recommended.
2. P-Mag 20 - fits, but do not drop free. Need small amount of sanding front and rear to drop free.
3. E-mag 30 - made to fit HK lower receiver and other weapon systems that use STANAG 4179 magazine, so no problem there.
justin_247
02-04-11, 07:41
If the gun's a 'retard', why was it adopted by the most elite US military unit?
I seriously, seriously doubt that it would have been adopted if it were in the MR556 configuration. That'd make for one heck of a heavy weapon... with a 30 rd mag, it weighs 9.5 lbs. Add an optic, PEQ, light, forward grip, grenade launcher, or rail covers, and it gets much heavier.
The MR556 is heavy. The MR556 is expensive.
too much so on both accounts.
However, the MR556 is not just another "piston AR" by any means, because it was designed from the ground up to facilitate its purpose. This is a drastically different concept compared to LWRC, or anyone else doing retrofits.
No, it is "just another piston AR" as they all are. No, it was not "designed from the ground up" just as no other piston conversion was, dating back to the Colt - Remington examples from the late 60's. All piston AR15's/M16's are "conversions" of a DI designed operating system. Fact.
Just because HK was the recent first to put some time and money to get one working well enough to see very limited adoption and use by some select US forces (disregading foriegn adoptions) doesn't mean it is inherently superior or different in its fundamental design over all other manufacturers offerings.
There are so many companies offering a piston system it is hard to keep track of them all. What is there , 10 to 15 companies offering them?
The outcome being the HK416, which has quickly become one of the most revered weapon systems on the planet in a very short period of time.
That is a rather lofty claim, and it remains to be seen what the outcome of the IC program is. It is questionable on whether a 'converted' design should be chosen over a true 'ground up' design. The SCAR-L was already rejected, so it appears the choice could be a "piston conversion" of the AR15 platform. Watch out for Colt.
So yeah, if there is some enthusiasm revolving around the MR556, there is a good reason for it.
Perhaps, but allot of it is hype also.
That is a rather lofty claim, and it remains to be seen what the outcome of the IC program is.
Which part of word "planet" did you not understand? IC program is US internal affair and has nothing to do with HK416 worldwide military market position.
However, the MR556 is not just another "piston AR" by any means, because it was designed from the ground up to facilitate its purpose. This is a drastically different concept compared to LWRC, or anyone else doing retrofits.
The outcome being the HK416, which has quickly become one of the most revered weapon systems on the planet in a very short period of time.
In nearly every 'Piston vs DI' thread on this site, the universal opinion of many of the 'senior' members is that the piston AR is too heavy, too expensive, and full of lethal proprietary parts. So, I don't think I'm mis-characterizing the general view of the M4C populace.
But, hey, if you guys like it enjoy. More options in the market place are never a bad thing.
And I'm not seeing the revolutionary nature of the HK. How is the HK416 a 'drastic' departure from the other piston systems like LMT or LWRC? Granted, HK and LAV can design a great weapon, and I'm sure the HK416 is a fine rifle. But it's a piston system shoe horned into a previously DI weapon.
"One of the most revered weapons on the planet"? You don't think that's a little over the top? How many people have shot one extensively and that have shared their opinion of it? Not many. Does that reverence come from actual use, or surfing the web, or Call of Duty? I know some pretty serious people have used it operationally, and maybe that's where the fangasm stuff is coming from.
Look, the HK416 is a great rifle, and it's been used by some hard killers. The M27 won the IAR contract over some other good rifles. But I don't see it as this huge leap over the mid-length M4, LWRC, or LMT, and actually a step behind something like the SCAR or KAC SR-15. And frankly, the MR556A1 is the fat, ugly sister to the HK416.
It's great to see it finally come to the market. I really wouldnt mind owning one, but I will wait a few weeks before anything happens to see if there are any reviews if someone buys one. I want to see how it holds up to reliability tests and if the barrel would be ok during continuously firing it. If everything looks ok, I will definately pick one up.
"One of the most revered weapons on the planet"? You don't think that's a little over the top? How many people have shot one extensively and that have shared their opinion of it? Not many. Does that reverence come from actual use, or surfing the web, or Call of Duty? I know some pretty serious people have used it operationally, and maybe that's where the fangasm stuff is coming from.
From when it started it got adopted by several SOF units around world (to include France - who hates everything non-French) as well as regular armies as standard issue (Norway done, Turkey to go, France considering to replace Famas). Include to this police forces (CT units) in several countries. There are only few rifle/carbine systems that get that much international attention and use with elite unit in such short time. And who uses M16 or M4? Israel and ANA? Israel is using it only because they got it for free, same for ANA. Show me military or police force outside US, who decided recently to spend their money (not US military aid) to get M16 or M4 as newly adopted weapon system. This revere comes from actual use, both in training and real life environments.
HK416 is not perfect system (as with every weapon system actual use showed some flaws that are worked out in next iterations), but it's now most revered internationally. Only competition are FN F2000 and SCAR, HK own G36 and finally AK-likes (skipping one country local systems like Beretta, Bren, SA-80 etc.).
Everyone take a moment and acknowledge the significance of HK moving carbine production to the USA, in addition to making the HK45 here.
Thumbs up to HK for that.
Thumbs up to HK for making a 'dreaded assault rifle' available to civilians.
However, I think HK has overestimated the physical strength of the average American with a 9 pound carbine. We just are not as strong as the men of WWII an Korea where the Garand's weight was quite welcome when it came time to whack a guy in the forehead with the metal butt plate.
All joking aside, this may be a great battle rifle, and probably is, but the weight narrows the market segment which will be interested in the rifle. I wonder how much weight could be shaved off by dimpling the barrel, drilling/fluting the forearm, switching out the butt for a Magpul CTR, and replacing the iron sights.
Its now time for the shake out.
I want these other brands killed off.
(regarding LWRC, SIG, Ruger, Adams, CMMG, POF, STAG, S&W, LMT, Titan, Ares, Addax, Ospey, RRA, PWS...)
The market would probably be healthier without those piston abominations. But I have no love for the SL8-6 either.
Who uses the M4 besides the US?
Australian SAS
New Zealand SAS
British SAS
Greek EKAM
Italian Special Forces
Portuguese Marines
Indonesian counter terror units
Hungarian special forces
And many others, even though I'm deliberately skipping over anyone who got it as part of a military aid package.
Other than the IAR competition, what other weapon systems has the HK416 beaten in head to head military trials?
I'd be curious to see how it matches up to the SR-15 or SCAR in a direct competition.
And who uses M16 or M4?
US
Canada
Denmark
The Netherlands
Israel
The Phillipines
Guatemala
El Salvador
UAE
Kuiwait
Thailand
The M16/M4 is the official military rifle of these countries.
It is also used by the SAS and SBS even before the American adoption of the weapon and is still the office weapon of the SAS and SBS.
The fact that the four richest 1st world countries, US, Canada, UK, and Austrailia use it as a service wide weapon or equip their own elite units with the AR15, over their own home grown weapon, is significant.
When measured in dollars, it is the most sucessfull firearm of all time. If the Cold War would not have happened, it would be the most sucessfull firearm in terms of numbers over the AK series. As the eastern bloc countries would have adopted a different weapon than the AK, which was forced upon them in a communist system.
I think it is great that HK is actually building rifles in the US. Never thought I would see that happen. I just wish they had started doing that 5 years ago so that civilian G36s could have been available too.
Which part of word "planet" did you not understand? IC program is US internal affair and has nothing to do with HK416 worldwide military market position.
Dude, why are you so hostile? Which part of I don't care don't you understand? Let me net it out for you. I don’t care what Europe uses. I don’t care what Poland uses. I don’t care what a “high speed low drag” unit from another country uses. The HK 416 is a conversion of a proven operating system. Period. That is it.
I have said this in the past (so have others even in this thread), what does the 416 offer over say and LWRCI, Barrett, LMT, etc. We don't really know if anything other than being heavier, more expensive, and more proprietary.
Will the US and some of its allies adopt a “conversion” in the future? Perhaps, but the jury is still out on that and it may be years before we know anything. If and when that happens, then we can talk. Otherwise, it is moot and nothing really more than a novelty. Kinda like when you couldn't get Coors beer east of the Rockies 30-40 years ago. ;)
US
Canada
Denmark
The Netherlands
Israel
The Phillipines
Guatemala
El Salvador
UAE
Kuiwait
Thailand
The M16/M4 is the official military rifle of these countries.
It is also used by the SAS and SBS even before the American adoption of the weapon and is still the office weapon of the SAS and SBS.
The fact that the four richest 1st world countries, US, Canada, UK, and Austrailia use it as a service wide weapon or equip their own elite units with the AR15, over their own home grown weapon, is significant.
When measured in dollars, it is the most sucessfull firearm of all time. If the Cold War would not have happened, it would be the most sucessfull firearm in terms of numbers over the AK series. As the eastern bloc countries would have adopted a different weapon than the AK, which was forced upon them in a communist system.
As much as you want the AR-15 series to be the best and most prolific weapon in the 20th century, It will never be. The AK47 was. Honestly I would believe that it would be easier to say that the MP5 or the FN FAL were much more prolific weapons systems that made a much larger impact than the AR-15 did. The M4 is a great weapon because it is cheap! We give them away for near nothing on a global scale -- Sure the USSR did the same with the AK. Stay with me here... If a custom 1911 cost 400$ and a glock cost 2500$, which do you think would succeed? Why is the M4 any different? Is having an upper close to a real 416 upper that costs less than 4000$ bad? I say no. HK builds good guns. Hell, If an ACR cost 850$ everyone here would have three of them.
Barriers like 922r do not keep the american gun market fair. The AK cannot compete, the Sig 550/552 cannot compete, the aug cannot compete, The SCAR cannot compete (call FN and ask to buy a barrel for one!), none of the imported guns can compete. So before you say that things like the AK were forced on people like Poland or East Germany, I say that companies like Bushmaster that lobbied for this crap forced the AR15 on us. No one can compete with them on a level ground. This does not take anything away from Stoner's design, just saying that it is fair is un-true. The M4 will never move forward if the ground is not level. We are lucky we have people like KAC here. Mabye we want those expensive propietary parts? EVER THINK OF THAT? SR-15 hello?
Mabye I want an SVD?
Mabye I want a real russian made krink?
Mabye I want a Sig 552 SBR?
Mabye I want a Galil?
Mabye I want a real 10.0 Scar CQC?
Mabye I want a real hk 416?
Mabye I want a G36c?
Dude, why are you so hostile? Which part of I don't care don't you understand? Let me net it out for you. I don’t care what Europe uses. I don’t care what Poland uses. I don’t care what a “high speed low drag” unit from another country uses. The HK 416 is a conversion of a proven operating system. Period. That is it.
I have said this in the past (so have others even in this thread), what does the 416 offer over say and LWRCI, Barrett, LMT, etc. We don't really know if anything other than being heavier, more expensive, and more proprietary.
Will the US and some of its allies adopt a “conversion” in the future? Perhaps, but the jury is still out on that and it may be years before we know anything. If and when that happens, then we can talk. Otherwise, it is moot and nothing really more than a novelty. Kinda like when you couldn't get Coors beer east of the Rockies 30-40 years ago. ;)
I thought M4c was a place where people could talk about facts so we all could learn... I guess someone is allowing this fanboy-ism to run rampant.
Coleslaw down here still says LWRCi and Barrett have the shit and that HK is just a name. Ive never seen someone hate HK that much. The analogy of a hot girl that won't **** him is true -- whoever said it a few pages ago. Who is letting this poser still post here? I thought there was a rule about spreading misinformation? The only things he know come from Call of Duty!
Ive never seen a REC-7 upper or M6A2 upper sell for 4000$ on gunbroker. They are not the same. Thats like saying a Ford Focus or a Kia does the same thing a Toyota Carolla does... Apples and Oranges.
Coleslaw, If you want to make a Rec-7 thread, go ahead! Just GTFO of here. We don't care about your opinion and we don't want you here.
One thing that the 416 has over LWRC is it's been proven in hostile areas and actually works. There are some (LWRC) of them being used overseas and not just by the DEA and they are not performing so well.
Dude, why are you so hostile? Which part of I don't care don't you understand? Let me net it out for you. I don’t care what Europe uses. I don’t care what Poland uses. I don’t care what a “high speed low drag” unit from another country uses. The HK 416 is a conversion of a proven operating system. Period. That is it.
I have said this in the past (so have others even in this thread), what does the 416 offer over say and LWRCI, Barrett, LMT, etc. We don't really know if anything other than being heavier, more expensive, and more proprietary.
Will the US and some of its allies adopt a “conversion” in the future? Perhaps, but the jury is still out on that and it may be years before we know anything. If and when that happens, then we can talk. Otherwise, it is moot and nothing really more than a novelty. Kinda like when you couldn't get Coors beer east of the Rockies 30-40 years ago. ;)
One thing that the 416 has over LWRC is it's been proven in hostile areas and actually works. There are some (LWRC) of them being used overseas and not just by the DEA and they are not performing so well.
Source? Units using them? Which models? What kinds of problems? Love to hear more.
The source is someone who is currently on a project using them. I am not going to state who, what, why, or anything else due to OPSEC. He may chime in at some point, but he had concerns that fanboys would get butthurt and call him out.
In any case the 416 is still being utilized by certain U.S military units and the feedback that I heard was positive. Though some of them were the first to admit that they are trigger pullers and not armorers, engineers, etc...
Source? Units using them? Which models? What kinds of problems? Love to hear more.
The source is someone who is currently on a project using them. I am not going to state who, what, why, or anything else due to OPSEC. He may chime in at some point, but he had concerns that fanboys would get butthurt and call him out.
In any case the 416 is still being utilized by certain U.S military units and the feedback that I heard was positive. Though some of them were the first to admit that they are trigger pullers and not armorers, engineers, etc...
:agree:
Thank you for giving the thread some real world information!
I hope soon we will have a few people here with MR556s that can post results... good or bad..
RogerinTPA
02-04-11, 15:16
As much as you want the AR-15 series to be the best and most prolific weapon in the 20th century, It will never be. The AK47 was.
Only because the USSR gave them away, by the metric shit tons, to every communist country that wanted them. "They" tried to force the AK on the Czechs... they told the Soviets to pound sand and came up with the VZ, which is a superior weapon. AKs were produced for the uneducated masses, ARs for the classes.
Only because the USSR gave them away, buy the metric shit tons, to every communist country that wanted them. "They" tried to force the AK on the Czechs... they told the Soviets to pound sand and came up with the VZ, which is a superior weapon.
They did give them away quite well, but I think they made a bad decision when they gave the plans to china...
We kinda do the same thing with our military aid though and the M16/M4. Why do you think the IDF has so many of them?:)
I love how you threw the AR-15 for the classes part!
The FN FAL was the one for the classes. No one pre 1970 thought the M16 was a better system. Just the thought of someone in 1966 saying the M16 is awesome makes me laugh. Did you ever wonder why so many nato nations used things like the FNC, FAL, SA80, HK33, HK91/G-3, and etc? Because before 1985 so or the M16 was not considered a top tier firearm. It took the M16 a long time to reach the fame it has today... and that fame would never have happened assuming we did not "pimp" the design around the globe.
Things like the hk 416, KAC SR-15, and so on would never have existed if the M16 was not such an epic failure from the start. Many years of good engineering have taken the design a long way, but it still has its roots in almost epic failure and even today we are still in search of the perfect modifications or proprietary parts that make the system work better.
One thing that the 416 has over LWRC is it's been proven in hostile areas and actually works. There are some (LWRC) of them being used overseas and not just by the DEA and they are not performing so well.
Half the LWRCs that I have seen in classes were not functioning reliably. They've gotten better over time. At one point there was a thread on every other day here about someone who had an LWRC that did not run reliably.
It took the M16 a long time to reach the fame it has today... and that fame would never have happened assuming we did not "pimp" the design around the globe.
The rifle was not "pimped" to Canada, Denmark, or The Netherlands. They sought it out themselves and Canada like it so much they set up their own licensed production of it.
It was also not "pimped" to the SAS and SBS when they adopted it in 1960.
Barriers like 922r do not keep the american gun market fair. The AK cannot compete, the Sig 550/552 cannot compete, the aug cannot compete, The SCAR cannot compete (call FN and ask to buy a barrel for one!), none of the imported guns can compete. So before you say that things like the AK were forced on people like Poland or East Germany, I say that companies like Bushmaster that lobbied for this crap forced the AR15 on us. No one can compete with them on a level ground. This does not take anything away from Stoner's design, just saying that it is fair is un-true.
922r is not a consideration on the global market and was not a factor when the other first world countries I have listed adopted it.
They did give them away quite well, but I think they made a bad decision when they gave the plans to china...
The AK would have never existed outside of Russia and thrid world african shitholes if there was no such thing as the warsaw pact and the cold war.
Poland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Lithuania, Lativia, Georgia, and Estonia would have all adopted a FAL or G3 and would have adopted some 5.56 rifle after 7.62N went out of style.
As much as you want the AR-15 series to be the best and most prolific weapon in the 20th century, It will never be. The AK47 was.
Best is a term YOU used, not Scotty, and it is subjective. Your interpretation of the written word is substandard at a minimum.
Honestly I would believe that it would be easier to say that the MP5 or the FN FAL were much more prolific weapons systems that made a much larger impact than the AR-15 did.
The MP5. Seriously? Moron.
The M4 is a great weapon because it is cheap!
Which one isn't on the open market? You know how much an MP5 costs? You don't. In fact, have you ever owned and MP5? An M4? I didn't think so.
We give them away for near nothing on a global scale -- Sure the USSR did the same with the AK. Stay with me here... If a custom 1911 cost 400$ and a glock cost 2500$, which do you think would succeed? Why is the M4 any different? Is having an upper close to a real 416 upper that costs less than 4000$ bad? I say no. HK builds good guns. Hell, If an ACR cost 850$ everyone here would have three of them.
Ohhh, now price is a consideration for you. Everytime I mention price while you are groveling at the altar of Orbendorf, price doesn't mean a thing. Woops, forgot the motto, "When only the best will do". Or is it the one on your t-shirt "When negotioations fail......"? Don't lie, you know you have one!
Barriers like 922r do not keep the american gun market fair.
Laws like that are in place because of nimrods like you that want to run around and pump up their keyboad fingers, skip along the aisles at gun shows, and camp out at Borders waiting for the next issue of Guns and Ammo.
The AK cannot compete, the Sig 550/552 cannot compete, the aug cannot compete, The SCAR cannot compete (call FN and ask to buy a barrel for one!), none of the imported guns can compete. So before you say that things like the AK were forced on people like Poland or East Germany, I say that companies like Bushmaster that lobbied for this crap forced the AR15 on us. No one can compete with them on a level ground.
That is some of the stupidest shit I have ever read. Damn dude, WTF? Get your head out of your ass and quit blaming firearms manufacturers.
You think Poland. EG, and other former Eastern Bloc countries had a choice, even if they wanted one? Goddamn you are ignorant.
This does not take anything away from Stoner's design, just saying that it is fair is un-true. The M4 will never move forward if the ground is not level. We are lucky we have people like KAC here. Mabye we want those expensive propietary parts? EVER THINK OF THAT? SR-15 hello?
Yeah it does take away from Gene's design. You run the thing into the ground, and having known the man I find it offensive.
A bolt, big deal. I would take an SR16 over a 416 any day of the week.
Mabye I want an SVD?
Mabye I want a real russian made krink?
Mabye I want a Sig 552 SBR?
Mabye I want a Galil?
Mabye I want a real 10.0 Scar CQC?
Mabye I want a real hk 416?
Mabye I want a G36c?
Funny thing you mention this and I will ask again. Have you ever owned and MP5? An M16? An AK47? An UZI? A HK53? AR18? M14? Swedish K? Berretta 12? HKVP70Z? Have you ever owned a f***ing machinegun? Most importantly, have you ever owned a 416?
Simple question tough guy. Answer it. Actually, you already have.
I thought M4c was a place where people could talk about facts so we all could learn... I guess someone is allowing this fanboy-ism to run rampant.
Coleslaw down here still says LWRCi and Barrett have the shit and that HK is just a name. Ive never seen someone hate HK that much. The analogy of a hot girl that won't **** him is true -- whoever said it a few pages ago. Who is letting this poser still post here? I thought there was a rule about spreading misinformation? The only things he know come from Call of Duty!
Ive never seen a REC-7 upper or M6A2 upper sell for 4000$ on gunbroker. They are not the same. Thats like saying a Ford Focus or a Kia does the same thing a Toyota Carolla does... Apples and Oranges.
Coleslaw, If you want to make a Rec-7 thread, go ahead! Just GTFO of here. We don't care about your opinion and we don't want you here.
christopher, first, I never said, LWRCI, Barrett, LMT, or any other piston maker had it over HK. I said, I have seen nothing that proves HK has it over any of them. Not only is the interpretation of what you read suspect, your comprehension sucks.
Another seriously? for you. Gunbroker? That is your gauge, your barometer?
Pray tell, what "misinformation" have I spread Chrissy?
Who is we Chrissy? Huh?
Finally, you have to be the biggest douche I have run across, gosh, in 10 or 15 years. I will bet you don't talk so big face to face. Generally I would rather slam my testicles between two bricks than acknowledge an imbecile like yourself, but in this case, I would give my left one to meet you. I think your attitude would change drastically and quickly.
You have been rude, condescending, use profanity, call names, give a feeble effortt to insult using juvenile language because you are incapable in intelligent dialog, and are basically not a nice person. My guess your dealings with HK are nothing more than a few retail purchases of a pistol here and there, compounded by the insatiable desire for a large German appendage filling your various orifices.
So, when you are ready to step up to the plate, shoot me a PM and I am sure I can dig up a few reg sears out of the safe if you want to play. Otherwise STFU.
They did give them away quite well, but I think they made a bad decision when they gave the plans to china...
We kinda do the same thing with our military aid though and the M16/M4. Why do you think the IDF has so many of them?:)
I love how you threw the AR-15 for the classes part!
The FN FAL was the one for the classes. No one pre 1970 thought the M16 was a better system. Just the thought of someone in 1966 saying the M16 is awesome makes me laugh. Did you ever wonder why so many nato nations used things like the FNC, FAL, SA80, HK33, HK91/G-3, and etc? Because before 1985 so or the M16 was not considered a top tier firearm. It took the M16 a long time to reach the fame it has today... and that fame would never have happened assuming we did not "pimp" the design around the globe.
Things like the hk 416, KAC SR-15, and so on would never have existed if the M16 was not such an epic failure from the start. Many years of good engineering have taken the design a long way, but it still has its roots in almost epic failure and even today we are still in search of the perfect modifications or proprietary parts that make the system work better.
Before I had an opportunity to respond to the initial blast of idiocy you espoused, lo and behold, another post of brilliant vapid rhetoric. I think this most recent post may win the stupid prize. You continue to display not even an elementary vision of geopolitical history. Your simpleton approach to world events, past and present, and lack of understanding of the driving forces of 'invention' and adoption of weapons systems is transparent to say the least.
For the sake of public safety, I pray the "fhp" portion of your name is not an acronym for the Florida Highway Patrol. If that is the case, what an embarrassment to that fine organization you must be.
The rifle was not "pimped" to Canada, Denmark, or The Netherlands. They sought it out themselves and Canada like it so much they set up their own licensed production of it.
It was also not "pimped" to the SAS and SBS when they adopted it in 1960.
Quote wars!
Who really cares what canada uses as a service rifle? Who have they ever fought?
The Sas have used every weapon on the list I made earlier. Personally, I could not find any information of them using an AR-15 in any sort of conflict during the 60s... I only see MP5s.
Did you work with the SAS in the 60s? Lemme guess.... No.
Did you work in a unit attached to the SAS/SBS? No.
Why are you talking about this then? There are rules here to stop drivel from kiddies that should be out learning and not playing call of duty.
922r is not a consideration on the global market and was not a factor when the other first world countries I have listed adopted it.
922r is a factor for what we can buy and own, so it is 100% important here. Kudos to H&K for making this great rifle here so that we may own it. I sincerely hope that they see the market that exists here and make some roller delayed blowback guns. I think lots of us would love to see more HK94s/HK33s/HK91s no matter how "outdated" they are.
The AK would have never existed outside of Russia and thrid world african shitholes if there was no such thing as the warsaw pact and the cold war.
Poland, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Lithuania, Lativia, Georgia, and Estonia would have all adopted a FAL or G3 and would have adopted some 5.56 rifle after 7.62N went out of style.
__________________
The AK came YEARS before Stoners rifle, and it was a working battle rifle almost from the beginning of the assault rifle itself. Downplaying the importance and impact of it is a very shortsighted thing. It also was very proven in Vietnam -- the only conflict in which both rifles saw use by opposite sides.
Honestly, the only thing that is dated here is probably 5.56. It is funny that 300BLK copies a cartridge from 1943 ballistics-wise 70 years or so later...
5.56 is just not optimal when you talk 10 inch barrels. When you need a SPR and an 18-20 inch barrel it is no better. Neither of these situations is it the best solution... Its a poor compromise.
The AK pre-dates the cold war by decades. Poland STILL uses a 5.56 AK. The bottom line is that the AK47 set the bar for what an assault rifle should be capable of from a standpoint of reliability, ease and cost of manufacture, maintenance, ease of training, and many other factors. These factors are exactly why we have rifles like the SCAR, SR-15, ACR, and HK 416.
Try to clear a malfunction with your stock M16 in your weak shoulder and let me know how that works out for you... It wont! The M16 is still a 50+ year old design itself and has its issues because of that. As comfortable as we are with where the controls are, they only really work if you are a right hander and they are not optimal.
Credit is due where credit is due... They got many things right with the AK and it will be around for a long time. I think that it should teach us many lessons about what works and what does not. I think that they got many things right on the MP44 right from the get go and maybe if that platform has had the opportunity and effort that was available for the AR-15 maybe it would also be a leader in the current assault rifle market.
The M16/M4 series is a good system, but it is not perfect. We hope these new rifles like the SCAR and HK416 will fit that role or that gap, but to turn and ignore the most successful rifles of the past 100 years and what they brought to the table is very dumb.
And another one bites the dust because everyone can't get along. Good job!
John_Wayne777
02-05-11, 00:19
The MP5. Seriously? Moron.
Finally, you have to be the biggest douche I have run across, gosh, in 10 or 15 years. I will bet you don't talk so big face to face. Generally I would rather slam my testicles between two bricks than acknowledge an imbecile like yourself, but in this case, I would give my left one to meet you. I think your attitude would change drastically and quickly.
Gentlemen:
This thread is a textbook example of exactly the sort of dialogue that M4C will not tolerate. Disagreement is fine, but when there is a disagreement we expect those on different sides of an argument to at least treat one another with respect.
We absolutely will not tolerate the behavior seen in this thread on this site.
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