View Full Version : Do we need more than 12" Penetration today?
In another forum a post from a gentlemen desiring a .45 round that penetrates 14-16" stirred me. I had thought about this for some time as the 12" penetration depth recommended by the FBI dates back to the mid 80's. We are, as a demographic, larger on average with higher BMI's (body mass indices) than our lankier counterparts nearly 30 years ago.
I would be interested in knowing if any medical examiners/pathologist have noticed any change in the wounding, lethality etc. in the more obese victim?
I look at some big dudes sometimes with leather coats and hoodies and think... Damn, he is a thick ass dude! I would hate to tangle with that.
Your insight is appreciated.
Dave
I have the same observations. Some of those people are big! In my opinion, more than 12" penetration a good idea. Also keep in mind that the bullet has to have some remaining energy at deep penetration in order to do any damage.
This may be a re-run, but check this.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm
It's a classic event of placement and penetration vs expansion with less penetration.
In my opinion, more than 12" penetration a good idea. Also keep in mind that the bullet has to have some remaining energy at deep penetration in order to do any damage.
After years of studying this, I've come to the same conclusion.
I'm off the high cost , magic bullet bandwagon. I've settled on the .38 Special Model 60 loaded with 158gr SWC, which is what I started with many years ago. If one of the big ammo companies came out with a heavier lead SWC, I might try it out but the 158gr is probably enough for any oversize attacker.
After years of studying this, I've come to the same conclusion.
I'm off the high cost , magic bullet bandwagon. I've settled on the .38 Special Model 60 loaded with 158gr SWC, which is what I started with many years ago. If one of the big ammo companies came out with a heavier lead SWC, I might try it out but the 158gr is probably enough for any oversize attacker.
The funny thing is, when we were carrying 158's, the people we shot, largely fell down pretty good. Even in the notorious 158 grain RNL days.
I like the really big holes some of the newest loads make, but there's certainly something to be said for the old penetrators.
How about we remember that 12" is the MINIMUM and recall that many of the good loads go deeper into the ideal penetration range of 12-18"...
Once years ago during a high risk warrant brief I noted that the bad guy we were after was reported to be 6'6" and 350-375lbs.
Since we issued Winchester 55gr SP for our ARs back then, and knowing what I knew about that load, I quietly swapped mags so that I was loaded with M193 ball (I know better now, but back then it seemed like a good idea to have some ball ammo around for shooting through cover).
I had this mental picture of shooting said bad guy and not being able to put him down due to being issued ammo that only penetrated like 6" in gelatin.
A couple of years ago while we were in NOLA my wife and I were in a confrontation where I almost had to shoot a guy who was about 6'3" and pushing 375. She retired her Kel Tec .32 when we got back home and started carrying a 9mm loaded with +p Gold Dots.
Years ago I used to really worry about overpenetration if I was involved in a shooting on the job. Now, not so much.
Our issued 124gr +P Gold Dot seems to run about 15" penetration on average, in real life it will most often exit on a cross torso shot, pop out the far side and either get caught up in the clothing or fall to the ground a few yards downrange.
Even though these bullets exit, I feel the penetration is just about perfect.
Having met huge Samoans who are convinced that 70 degree weather necessitates thick jackets, I'll say it's pretty reasonable.
As you noted, certain clothing layers can do a lot to alter the terminal effects, so considering that 12" penetration on bare gel is a benchmark, with the reduced performance since that's the most ideal condition, 12" would be absolutely a minimum, as DocGKR states.
"Know your target and what lies beyond" is a better option than an inferiour loading.
Doc,
My assertion is the minimum should be increased. This is based on the fact the FBI guidelines were established well over 20-30 years ago!
Heck I'll go a step further. They (the FBI) should review this again, or are there any plans to?
Dave
The 12" minimum established by the FBI is an excellent requirement for minimum penetration.
Given that it may be necessary to shoot an assailant intent on killing you; it is highly probable that he may very well have his arms up in front of him while committing that act (as with the use of a firearm), meaning that your ammunition will not only have to defeat what he is wearing before providing adequate penetration to reach his vital organs, but also a hand, wrist, forearm or upper arm (and it may not be just one of those body parts either) prior to that if your defensive fire is directed COM.
I, for one, prefer "heavy for caliber" JHP ammunition (regardless of caliber chosen) that routinely provides between 14 and 18 inches of penetration.
The original guideline back in the late 1980's was 10-12"; this was revised upwards to an absolute 12" minimum in the early 1990's. It may well be that deeper penetration is required by the increasing obesity in American Society, however, the 12-18" standard still works for larger individuals--just pick loads exhibiting terminal performance at the deeper end of the spectrum.
Isn't 12in of gel about 6in of real tissue?
Thomas M-4
02-03-11, 20:36
Isn't 12in of gel about 6in of real tissue?
I believe you are thinking of water.
Isn't 12in of gel about 6in of real tissue?
No. Properly calibrated gel exhibits a 1:1 relationship with live tissue.
I'm fine with 12" of penetration as long as what ever the round is has penetrated a windshield and a couple of layers of denim or a heavy nylon jacket first.
Just from my own personal observations:
An entrance and exit wound it is a good (or bad depending on your POV) thing. Internal injuries are good but I just like the idea of the BG losing RBC's out of two holes.
Shooting people may be no different than stabbing them. Be mentally prepared poke multiple holes in them. I know a PD Use of Force Instructor who taught officers to continue to shoot until the target was no longer a threat. I have seen at least two guys run a 5 round 'rhythm drill' on a BG to bring him down. Shooting people is not like shooting steel. Don't be surprised if the target requires follow up shots.
Just from my own personal observations:
An entrance and exit wound it is a good (or bad depending on your POV) thing. Internal injuries are good but I just like the idea of the BG losing RBC's out of two holes.
Shooting people may be no different than stabbing them. Be mentally prepared poke multiple holes in them. I know a PD Use of Force Instructor who taught officers to continue to shoot until the target was no longer a threat. I have seen at least two guys run a 5 round 'rhythm drill' on a BG to bring him down. Shooting people is not like shooting steel. Don't be surprised if the target requires follow up shots.
All our instructors told us to shoot until the threat is neutralized.
PRGGodfather
03-26-11, 03:21
EXPECT that follow-up shots will be needed. More bullets is good. Spare magazine is good. Prepare for pistol whipping and ground fighting is good.
It's a pistol. Keep shooting until the bad guy stops, and get ready to fight if he doesn't realize he is dead.
Just from my own personal observations:
An entrance and exit wound it is a good (or bad depending on your POV) thing. Internal injuries are good but I just like the idea of the BG losing RBC's out of two holes.
Shooting people may be no different than stabbing them. Be mentally prepared poke multiple holes in them. I know a PD Use of Force Instructor who taught officers to continue to shoot until the target was no longer a threat. I have seen at least two guys run a 5 round 'rhythm drill' on a BG to bring him down. Shooting people is not like shooting steel. Don't be surprised if the target requires follow up shots.
BufordTJustice
03-26-11, 03:58
The original guideline back in the late 1980's was 10-12"; this was revised upwards to an absolute 12" minimum in the early 1990's. It may well be that deeper penetration is required by the increasing obesity in American Society, however, the 12-18" standard still works for larger individuals--just pick loads exhibiting terminal performance at the deeper end of the spectrum.
Agreed. I arrested a guy back in January for multiple felonies (he held his wife hostage with a loaded 12g Mossy 500...pointed it at her a couple times....yadda yadda yadda...he is STILL in jail on no-bond status....haha). This guy was 6'3", and 300lbs after taking a big shit, while holding a pack of balloons. Now, I'm not small (225, I'm young, and I lift heavy on a reg basis), and it took some doing for me to gain compliance so I could put him in the back of my patrol car.
That turned out to be a bad idea.
He, on his first attempt, kicked out my right rear window. I donated the better part of a can of pepper spray since he complained of some sinus congestion :D.....and that's all she wrote.
I said all that to say that I'm pleased my agency issues 200gr +P .45 Gold Dots since this guy's upper torso was easily 16-18 thick (front to rear) and his gut might have doubled that figure. Having to possibly shoot through one of his bear-sized-arms to reach vitals would also require some serious penetration.
Also remember folks, bal-gel requirements do NOT include the striking of bone...or the reduced penetration/deviations from course that bone would cause.
The best backstop for your rounds is the badguy.
I've only read up specific topics in terminal ballistics so I'm curious: At what distance are rounds fired into the gel to determine penetration in I guess the "standard" test?
For pistol, typically 3 meters; also some shots at 25 meters.
For rifle, typically 3-10 meters, 100 meters, and 300 meters.
No. Properly calibrated gel exhibits a 1:1 relationship with live tissue.
In the vast majority of shootings that I've seen/responded to, real life penetration is usually a lot less than what is seen in 10% gel testing results.
BufordTJustice
03-27-11, 21:22
No. Properly calibrated gel exhibits a 1:1 relationship with live tissue.
As the Doc has stated, live tissue is not homogenous. It is composed of a variety of very different tissues of varying densities and strengths. Properly calibrated ballistic gelatin is only a calculated approximation of the live tissue found in our body. It can only ever be an approximation because it is, by it's very nature, a gross over simplification of the human machine.
Further, bal-gel does not account for the striking of bone or bones, nor does it account for the elastic strength of the skin on the back side of the body. In a torso shot, the skin on the exit side can be equivalent to nearly 2" of calibrated bal-gel penetration.
Either way, we arrive at the same conclusion....over penetration is much less of a concern than under penetration.
In the vast majority of shootings that I've seen/responded to, real life penetration is usually a lot less than what is seen in 10% gel testing results.
It takes about 125 fps just to penetrate skin and 200 fps to penetrate bone. Then, if the subject is wearing clothing, who knows how much velocity is lost due to that? Especially if it is nylon, a material used for the original fabric body armor.
Gel is just a laboratory substance that enables us to compare apples to apples.
In the vast majority of shootings that I've seen/responded to, real life penetration is usually a lot less than what is seen in 10% gel testing results.
Weird. I often see more penetration from shootings I have worked, especially with our duty ammo.
Beat Trash
03-29-11, 10:45
EXPECT that follow-up shots will be needed. More bullets is good. Spare magazine is good. Prepare for pistol whipping and ground fighting is good.
It's a pistol. Keep shooting until the bad guy stops, and get ready to fight if he doesn't realize he is dead.
From the various shootings I've responded to over the years (the last one being about 10:30 PM last night - bullet entered the upper left back area, traversed down and to the right, missing anything important) I've seen bullets over and under penetrate and stop the individual. I've seen bullets over and under penetrate and fail to stop the individual.
The above quote best sums up my current thoughts on the subject.
A reliable gun, good tactics appropriately used, and shot placement. Repeat if necessary until the incident is over.
Glock17JHP
03-29-11, 13:33
I prefer loads in the 13.5 to 15 inch penetration range... and I like them to be as uniform as possible in various barrier testing (barrier blind).
I've only read up specific topics in terminal ballistics so I'm curious: At what distance are rounds fired into the gel to determine penetration in I guess the "standard" test?
The number that I keep comming across is 10 ft.
kh86--See post #21 above in this thread
For pistol, typically 3 meters; also some shots at 25 meters.
For rifle, typically 3-10 meters, 100 meters, and 300 meters.
Are you downloading ammo to replicate velocity at the longer rifle ranges?
While that can be done, it can cause problems with rotational velocity. More importantly, why would someone want to download velocity if test shots are already being taken at 100 and 300?
There are some options that help get a sense of max and min test ranges, for example, a 5.56 m test could do some shots at 3 meters with a 16" barrel and than some additional shots at 100 meters using a 10.5" barrel.
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