View Full Version : Sig p229 vs HK P30
JSTICFRALL
02-03-11, 09:18
I unfortunately had to sell my G19 for personal reasons and am looking to upgrade with its replacement. I carried it every day and want a compact frame to continue ease of carry. The only thing I want that was different from my G19 is to step up in caliber. I'm looking to move to a 40 cal because it's readily available and is not as expensive as .45 (I'm waiting for a 1911 to be my .45).
Anywho...both the p229 and P30 feel fantastic in the hand and feel very natural. However there is a downside to both. I'm not too much of a fan of the bore height of the p229 seeing how I just came from a G19 which has a very low profile. Also I find the weight might eventually get annoying, but then again I could get used to it. With the P30 I'm not a fan of the mag release and the fact that HK mags are crazy expensive.
I don't want this to be a debate of which manufacturer is better because we all know both Sig and HK are fantastic weapon manufacturers that have huge faithful followings. I'm more curious to see if anyone else has been in my position and which choice they made and why.
I'm guessing there is another reason you feel you need to "step up in caliber" other than that .40 is "readily available"?
Yes, I've been in your position many, many times in the past 25 years. I've owned many HK's, Many Sigs's and a whole host of other designs. And I am right back to the Glocks. My ccw for the past 4-5 years has been a G19. I too had to sell off a Glock due $$$ problems. The one I sold was the G17, the G19 is not going anywhere. Now that I reached somewhat of $$$ relief I am now planning on getting another G17 in the next few months.
Let me say this; GET another G19. After traveling many roads many different times I keep coming home to the Glock, in paticular the G19 (#1) the G17 (#2) and the G26 (#3). If for some reason I could not own another Glock my second choice would be a near tie between the M&P9 and the HK P30, everything else would follow.
It is your choice, your money but if your path mimincs mine as closely as it sounds you will most assurdley end up back to Glock anyway.
Good luck, stay safe.
I have a H&K P30 in .40 with the LEM trigger and it is a very close call between it and my H&K P2000 in 9mm LEM, as to which is my favorite.
Truth is you could not go wrong with either of these.
Because of slightly more weigh for the P30 and more hand gripping surface for the P30, I rate these two as equal in perceived recoil.
You can buy mags from several sources at about $35.
Oh, I didn't realize you wanted to go .40.
That gives me a big meh.
And yes, you obviously would be fine with another Glock as well.
JSTICFRALL
02-03-11, 10:23
I'm guessing there is another reason you feel you need to "step up in caliber" other than that .40 is "readily available"?
Well seeing how it's my home/personal defense pistol, I want something with a little more power behind it than a 9mm. I've had about 2 years behind a 9mm and feel comfortable with going up in caliber since I've done well with larger caliber pistols that my friends own at the range.
JSTICFRALL
02-03-11, 10:32
And yes, you obviously would be fine with another Glock as well.
Unfortunately I can't really go with another Glock due to personal reasons as stated before. I don't want to go into details but my soon to be fiance is not a fan of the G19 in particular for reasons I'd not like to discuss. So to avoid making her uncomfortable, I'm going to stay away from Glocks for the time being. Fortunately being the wonderful girl she is, she has no problem with me replacing it with something else.
gtmtnbiker98
02-03-11, 10:58
First off, between choice - P30 hands down. As for your drawbacks regarding the P30, the mag release is easily mastered and once mastered, many typically find it faster than your traditional push button magazine release. As for magazine price, around here (Ohio) P30 mags run ~$31.00 per and your typical Glock magazine runs ~$24.00. Sorry, but the price difference in magazines is a non-issue.
I used to be a fan of Sig; however, in recent years, their anodized frames seem to self destruct if you don't coat them with 5 lbs of slide glide. The Sig requires way too much maintenance to be a viable option for me.
Don't fall victim to the caliber debate. There's a lot of .40 S&W haters here. That is them, not you. If you want a .40 then get it. I am one of those who actually like the .40 S&W and as a matter of fact, my EDC and duty weapon is a P30S V3 .40 S&W. Love it!!
JSTICFRALL
02-03-11, 11:08
As for magazine price, around here (Ohio) P30 mags run ~$31.00 per and your typical Glock magazine runs ~$24.00. Sorry, but the price difference in magazines is a non-issue.
Well I feel stupid...I just did a search and found some pretty good prices on the mags. I don't know why I thought they were up there with the price of USPC mags (which was something I was looking at for a while). My buddy owns a USPC 45 and every time I look for mags for him at the gun shows, I can't find them for under $60!
I've read rumors about Sig frames fracturing however I chalked it up to be one of those harsh rumors that was started because of one or two recorded occurrences. Can anyone else claim to that happening?
dirt_diver
02-03-11, 11:15
I unfortunately had to sell my G19 for personal reasons and am looking to upgrade with its replacement. I carried it every day and want a compact frame to continue ease of carry. The only thing I want that was different from my G19 is to step up in caliber. I'm looking to move to a 40 cal because it's readily available and is not as expensive as .45 (I'm waiting for a 1911 to be my .45).
Anywho...both the p229 and P30 feel fantastic in the hand and feel very natural. However there is a downside to both. I'm not too much of a fan of the bore height of the p229 seeing how I just came from a G19 which has a very low profile. Also I find the weight might eventually get annoying, but then again I could get used to it. With the P30 I'm not a fan of the mag release and the fact that HK mags are crazy expensive.
I don't want this to be a debate of which manufacturer is better because we all know both Sig and HK are fantastic weapon manufacturers that have huge faithful followings. I'm more curious to see if anyone else has been in my position and which choice they made and why.
I found myself in a similar situation. I have a Sig 226 that is being upgraded to a HK P30s. I had been considering a M&P 40FS but the P30's ability to customize the grip just that much more, plus the glowing reviews by some people I trust, sold me on it.
I also had some worries about the higher bore that both seem to have compared to the M&P or Glock, but I figure between proper training and the ability to change the grip angle by putting the largest backstrap on should solve the issue.
Just my .02. I hope you find one that will work well for you.
I've read rumors about Sig frames fracturing however I chalked it up to be one of those harsh rumors that was started because of one or two recorded occurrences. Can anyone else claim to that happening?
Early 226's (1980's) experienced some slide rail cracking, usually after high usage. At my department, Sig replaced the guns with no questions. I haven't heard of anything since
F-Trooper05
02-03-11, 14:08
Modern day SIG's aren't even in the same league as HK. This should be the easiest choice you've ever made.
JSTICFRALL
02-03-11, 14:11
Modern day SIG's aren't even in the same league as HK. This should be the easiest choice you've ever made.
Care to elaborate? Not trying to be an ass, just curious.
F-Trooper05
02-03-11, 14:16
Do a search on here for "SIG quality control."
OP I carried a P229 for over 10 years on duty. The pistol never let me down. I have shot HK pistols but never owned one so I will not bash them. My department switched to Glock, only because the 229 had reached the end of service life!
HK P30
The P229 in .40 is a very nice gun, but I prefer the mag release on the HK. I trust the HK more as well (with no empirical data to back this up). Also, the P30 just may very well be the most perfect feeling pistol I've ever put my hands on.
JSTICFRALL
02-03-11, 14:28
HK P30
The P229 in .40 is a very nice gun, but I prefer the mag release on the HK. I trust the HK more as well (with no empirical data to back this up). Also, the P30 just may very well be the most perfect feeling pistol I've ever put my hands on.
Definitely have to agree with you on that! The first time I ever picked one up I couldn't believe that someone finally got smart and designed a grip that felt like that.
I still haven't decided which to go with (obviously) but I'm having a hard time finding a good price on the P30 which doesn't surprise me.
Bulldog7972
02-03-11, 14:54
I have a 229. I love it. I see all this Sig bashing and I just don't get it. I must be the only man in America that owns trouble free Sigs. As far as weight goes, when it comes to rounds like the 40 (of which I also have no problem), I prefer the small amount of extra weight. IMHO it helps tame the recoil. I'm sure the P30 is also a fine weapon. I don't think you can go wrong with either.
I have a 229. I love it. I see all this Sig bashing and I just don't get it. I must be the only man in America that owns trouble free Sigs.
Actually, I think quite a few of us own trouble free Sigs, some of us more than one.
My understanding is the more recent guns are not the guns of 10 years ago or more. I'm not hearing a lot of great things about the current company.
p30.
I own both. While my p229 is an elite stainless, even the standard is heavier than a p30. They both have high bore axis so doesn't really matter on that note. I believe p30 holds 13 .40s&w standard while p229 only holds 12. My sig has a nicer trigger than the p30, it's smoother and also has the SRT on it so it's even more so nicer. Either mag release works for me. After shooting 50 rounds through my walther pps, which has the same type of mag release as the p30, when i switched to my p30, releasing the mag on it had already become 2nd nature. I know this because i specifically remember looking down and realizing my finger was still on the mag release lever and remember thinking "wow, i didn't even have to think about this different style of mag release". So.....the mag release shouldn't be a problem with some practice.
overall if i had to choose just one, i'd go with the p30 cause i think it has a slight edge over the p229.
A few years ago my agency switched from Glocks and HKs to SIG P229's. There isn't a person here would doesn't want to go back to the way things were.
Buy the HK.
JSTICFRALL
02-03-11, 22:35
I gotta admit I'm kinda surprised that the majority is going HK and it isn't an even split like some other threads I've seen. I guess HK really is more than just a name!
Now...anyone know where to get a P30 for $800 or less??
In .40 I would take the 229. It is heavier and handles the bigger round much better then any .40 HK I have ever shot. If you were going with 9mm I would say HK because the recoil is pretty tame and the HK is lighter for daily carry. Even with a great holster and belt that distribute the weight well you will notice the extra weight of the Sig.
I must be the only man in America that owns trouble free Sigs.
You and me both!
variablebinary
02-04-11, 04:19
I like the way the SIG E2 shoots. It has a vastly better trigger.
The P30 trigger is damn awful, but HK hasn't soiled their reputation like SIG. Also the P30 feels better in the hand, and for what you are paying get the QC and build quality you deserve.
JSTICFRALL
02-04-11, 06:49
I'm very new to the world of Sig's and it's a damn shame that they have a bad reputation all of a sudden. I always used to hear how they were one of the best weapons you could buy and rely on.
I don't want to turn this into a huge debate, but if you guys had your choice of 9mm or .40 in either of the two guns, which would you go with? Coming from a 9mm I know it's a great round to handle, however part of me doesn't feel like I can drop $700 or more for a 9mm when there are plenty of great models available in that caliber for much less. Then again I know the same can be said about the .40 as well.
I once had a Sig P229 and currently carry a P30 LEM in 40 S&W. They have both been good guns. I would say go with the P30. You will quickly get used to the HK mag release. I have found that it’s easy to eject the magazine with your trigger finger, vice your thumb, and not have to adjust your grip during a mag change. This is something new you will have to practice of course.
Pistol Shooter
02-04-11, 07:50
Good morning gentlemen! I'm a new member and very glad to be here.
I'm not new to HK or Sig products though.
One of the features of the P30 I really like are the different sized backstraps and side panels for the grip.
The P30 can be configured to fit almost any hand. My P30 L just melts into mine. :)
Have you taken the time to study terminal ballistics of modern 9mm defensive loads? I think if you do, you will be comfortable with the "stopping" power of modern 9mm. I went from .45 to 9mm and have never felt under-gunned.
I would look at a P30 in 9mm or .40 if you feel you really need that cartridge... I prefer wonder plastic in 9mm and use my 1911's for .45...
Another option you might consider is a M&P in .45.... Might give you the best of both worlds and they are also a great pistol.
Howardsrock
02-04-11, 08:08
I cannot give any input to the P30. However, I can tell you that I recently went through a similar exercise. I have an H&K USP 40. I needed a smaller weapon that my wife could handle better than the USP. I also am a fan of the “Thumb Safety.” Also, I didn’t want to spend a lot of money, but wanted something with good reliabilty and reputation. After researching and looking at options, I purchased a S&W M&P 40c. I have found it to be a great gun and would recommend it.
In .40 I would take the 229. It is heavier and handles the bigger round much better then any .40 HK I have ever shot. If you were going with 9mm I would say HK because the recoil is pretty tame and the HK is lighter for daily carry. Even with a great holster and belt that distribute the weight well you will notice the extra weight of the Sig.
Unfortunately your logic is faulty. The P229 is essentially a 9mm P228 upgraded to .40 S&W with a different slide and spring. The USP series HKs on the other hand were designed for the .40 S&W round from the get-go, the P30 can be considered a derivative line from the USP's. Early SIG P229's had quite a bit of problem with frame wear from 155gr. duty loads; I have one of those still. As for the difference in weight, The SIG clocks in at 28.1 oz and the HK P30 at 26.1 oz, not what anyone would call a significant difference. In terms of comparative recoil the better fitted grip of the P30 should provide greater control to a wider variety of shooters than the standard SIG grips in any calibre; edge HK.
JSTICFRALL
02-04-11, 09:24
I'm glad I decided to ask the question between these two weapons. There's a lot of good information in here that I didn't know about. ESPECIALLY with the "new" Sig's lack of QC. Thanks for the info, guys. Keep it coming if you have anything to add!
Cylinder Head
02-04-11, 10:24
I've owned a P30L for two years now and have had Bill Springfield do a trigger job on what was once an awful (compared to my HK45) trigger pull. The P30 (to me) is everything I could ask for in a gun, and as far as ergos go it's in a different league than anything Sig makes (or anyone for that matter).
I recently had a chance to shoot a 229 at my local range and was underwhelmed. It just didn't do anything for me.
I'd go the P30 route. The ergos are fantastic and the pistol is well made and reliable.
And I wouldn't worry too much about the mag release. With a bit of practice, I think you'll come to realize just what a great innovation this system is. I now much prefer it. I was struck immediately when I purchased my P7 almost 25 years ago just how fast mag releases could be. I can actuate HK's mag release with my trigger finger which serves the dual purpose of forcing me to take my finger off the trigger during the mag switch out while enabling me to drop the mag without having to alter my grip position in the least.
... I started carrying in an appendix holster recently because it really is the most invisible form of carry I've ever tried, and the more I practiced with an M&P from an appendix holster the more uneasy I was about the use of a striker-fired pistol with no manual safety in a holster that practically guarantees death or dismemberment if I have an unintentional discharge.
Enter the P30 with the LEM. It was the only hammer-fired handgun on the market that I was really interested in....
This is exactly the same reason I chose the P30 LEM in 40S&W except I was carrying various Glocks (17, 22, 36) in an appendix holster. I tried a Sig P229 but could never get used to the SA/DA setup and I never really liked the DAK. I went with the 40 S&W because at the time I already had 2000 rounds of 40S&W stashed away for a training class I never got to take. Life got in the way. In hindsight I should have went with 9mm and that is what I would recommend to others if they were going to get a P30 LEM.
variablebinary
02-05-11, 03:34
I've owned a P30L for two years now and have had Bill Springfield do a trigger job on what was once an awful (compared to my HK45) trigger pull. The P30 (to me) is everything I could ask for in a gun, and as far as ergos go it's in a different league than anything Sig makes (or anyone for that matter).
I recently had a chance to shoot a 229 at my local range and was underwhelmed. It just didn't do anything for me.
Any additional details on the trigger job?
Of those two options, the P30 wins, hands down, IMHO. It is significantly lighter than the Sig, and, in MY shooting experience, the P229's high bore axis makes it very "flippy" in .40.
This is saying nothing of the continued issues that Exeter is having with quality control and reliability; and the fact that the P229 is a 20+ year old design while the P30 is the most recent product of HK's engineering.
Now, the P30 is going to be noticeably longer in the grip, making it harder to conceal than either your G19 or the P229, and the trigger is marginal at best.
Having said all that, I personally don't think that the "step up" in power in .40 is worth the extra recoil/blast and the loss of capacity, if this is for civilian CCW use; and I'd stick with the G19.
Regards,
Kevin
I've read rumors about Sig frames fracturing however I chalked it up to be one of those harsh rumors that was started because of one or two recorded occurrences. Can anyone else claim to that happening?The newer versions of the P229, all Sigs actually, have been criticized for manufacturing problems and one of the problems that keeps coming up is excessive wear on the slide rails of the frame. I love Sigs, have had my P229 in .40 for 16 years and it has been a fantastic pistol for me in all regards. But, I wouldn't buy a current version.
JSTICFRALL
02-05-11, 08:55
I think you guys have got me sold. There's a show happening next weekend and I'll be hunting for a P30. Just hope I can find one for a decent price!
Excuse my negligence but I've never shot a P229. How does the high bore axis of the P30 compare to the P229? The P30 I've shot in 9mm had more muzzle flip than my M&P or my friend's Gen 4 G17 so I really don't see a P30 having less muzzle flip than the heavier Sig. The only real advantage I see in the P30 is the LEM trigger. All the rest is really personal.
mrosamilia
02-05-11, 11:48
I suggest that you should try to fire or at least handle one of the new 229 E2's. I have the 226 E2 and it is unbelievably accurate and has been utterly reliable. I also have an HK45 and HK45C and love them as well, my only experience with the P30 was with the L version and it just didn't trip my trigger. Hope this helps!!! The 229 E2 in 9mm I know has 15 round capacity not sure about 40.
The newer versions of the P229, all Sigs actually, have been criticized for manufacturing problems and one of the problems that keeps coming up is excessive wear on the slide rails of the frame. I love Sigs, have had my P229 in .40 for 16 years and it has been a fantastic pistol for me in all regards. But, I wouldn't buy a current version.
Excessive frame wear? Ahhh... all noobs to SIGs post about that on the forums, but it's completely normal. Both my German and US made SIGs show some amount of frame wear from the slide. It wears to a certain point and does not get worse.
The older German SIGs were/are maintenence intensive. The older stamped slides have roll pins that if not changed every 5k rounds, could and do break. When they break, they have been known to crack the frame rails. The new stainless steel slide pistols are much better weapons for hard use.
I recently had a chance to shoot a 229 at my local range and was underwhelmed. It just didn't do anything for me.
Really?
Mine babysits and washes my cars.....
P229 E2/SRT conversion done to my SAS. Wouldn't trade it for a P30. Personal preference and familiarity mostly, YMMV.
i spent months testing both of these guns deciding which to get and in the end i went with the p229 e2. im one of those unfortunate people who cant shoot a p30 without a piece of my finger being left in that stupid little groove underneath the trigger... after testing both for me the sig wins but thats with the SRT short trigger, not the standard sig trigger which i am not fond of. the HK trigger in my opinion is just awful and thats really a bummer because there really isnt anything that can beat the p30 as far and ergonomics. if you haven't bought it already go shoot one because that trigger/trigger guard groove combo on the p30 for me was a deal breaker. im completely happy with my choice of the sig and hundreds of rounds through its only getting smoother. just my 2 cents...
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5256/5417906592_3921be0932_b.jpg
JSTICFRALL
02-05-11, 23:29
Went to the range today to try out my new Battlecomp 2.0 on the AR, but it was packed and the waiting list lasted for hours so I decided to come back another day. Good news is that they rent guns at the range and have a brand new P30 in .40 available and I'm pretty sure I saw a Sig p229 in the case as well. I'm going to try to make it in this week and see if I can't give both of the guns a try. However once again I fell in love with the P30 when it was handed to me. The grip on that gun is absolutely perfect in every dimension. I can't wait to actually put some rounds through it, but the grip alone has got me hooked on the idea.
JSTICFRALL
02-07-11, 21:35
Well I had some time today and made it to the range and rented the P30 in .40 S&W and LOVED it! Even though I've never fired this particular weapon before, especially in .40 cal, there was something that felt familiar about it. The recoil was in fact kinda "sharp" as I've seen it described, however it wasn't anything that was uncontrollable. There wasn't a lot of muzzle flip, even though the height of the bore is slightly higher than that of my late G19. At about 15-20 feet, I was getting some pretty decent groups. I rushed a little because I was excited to shoot something new, however when I took my time I was getting groups within an inch of each other.
On the issue of the mag release, I kinda laughed with the guy at the store talking about how I previously hated it. But within a few magazine loads, actuating the release started to become second nature and I think it's fantastic. The one thing I noticed that I wasn't a fan of was the giant paddle for a safety. Needless to say if/when I get my P30, if it comes with one I will have the safety removed if possible. It just seems to get in the way and I'm not a fan.
The ergonomics aided in getting a fantastic grip on the gun while firing it. My hand never slipped or lost position, and I felt like I could shoot that thing all day and never get tired.
All in all, I think the P30 is going to be the perfect upgrade from my G19 although I will always miss it.
Cylinder Head
02-08-11, 08:19
Any additional details on the trigger job?
~$50 and a week turnaround gets you a significantly smoother DA pull and a very clean SA pull. On the P30 it's a little on the light side once you take up the slack. The HK45 job was absolutely perfect. The DA pull is still a little heavy (aren't they all?) but the SA pull is as close as a poly gun gets to a 1911.
JSTICFRALL
02-09-11, 09:05
Okay...now I've fallen victim to the 9mm vs .40 cal debate. I've shot the .40 cal version of the P30 and liked it however I can't really afford to go drop another $50 for range time, ammo, and gun rental fees to try out the 9mm version. Have you guys shot both and were able to compare the two side by side? Since this will be my carry weapon, I want to know I have, and hate to use this phrase, "knock down power". However I also want to feel confident in the fact that I have control over the weapon and could place several shots quickly and effectively. Part of me is thinking that I just need to practice with the .40 to be effective with it and will just need a little bit of time to get used to the way it handles. Then again the other part of me is thinking if I'm not getting a .45 then I should stick with the 9mm.
I also have questions about which caliber would be best for the compact-ish frame size of the P30? I'm thinking that since 9mm and .40 cal are very close and not as big of a jump between 9mm and .45, then either would do well. There was also the fact that was brought up earlier that the .40 cal P30 was designed around the caliber and was made to handle it in same respect that the 9mm P30 was designed around the 9mm.
Any input? I know this is a debate that has been beaten like a zombified dead horse, but I'm asking which caliber would be better for the P30 and not just in general.
Nine millimeter is always going to be easier to control than the .40 no matter the platform and unless you are restricted to hardball there is little difference in down range effectiveness for civilian use. If ammo cost is a consideration 9mm wins out again.
I don't see the downside to picking the smaller cartridge.
JSTICFRALL
02-09-11, 20:04
A lot of what I'm finding is that with the ballistic comparison of the 9mm and .40 cal, the extra recoil and loss of control of the .40 doesn't make it worth the extra cost and minimal size difference as compared to its younger brother. However I'm hearing that a lot of the military and law enforcement agencies are switching over to .40 cal because 9mm just tears through things because of its light weight and high speed, whereas the .40 cal seems to have better penetration and more or less "stays put" when it goes through soft tissue. Anyone care to add or clarify?
Okay...now I've fallen victim to the 9mm vs .40 cal debate. I've shot the .40 cal version of the P30 and liked it however I can't really afford to go drop another $50 for range time, ammo, and gun rental fees to try out the 9mm version. Have you guys shot both and were able to compare the two side by side? Since this will be my carry weapon, I want to know I have, and hate to use this phrase, "knock down power". However I also want to feel confident in the fact that I have control over the weapon and could place several shots quickly and effectively. Part of me is thinking that I just need to practice with the .40 to be effective with it and will just need a little bit of time to get used to the way it handles. Then again the other part of me is thinking if I'm not getting a .45 then I should stick with the 9mm.
I also have questions about which caliber would be best for the compact-ish frame size of the P30? I'm thinking that since 9mm and .40 cal are very close and not as big of a jump between 9mm and .45, then either would do well. There was also the fact that was brought up earlier that the .40 cal P30 was designed around the caliber and was made to handle it in same respect that the 9mm P30 was designed around the 9mm.
Any input? I know this is a debate that has been beaten like a zombified dead horse, but I'm asking which caliber would be better for the P30 and not just in general.
You can't afford to drop $50 on a range fee/ammo, but you can afford to buy an $800 pistol? Since cash seems like it's an issue, I would stick to 9mm. It can do everything that the other calibers can with modern ammunition, at a much lower cost.
JSTICFRALL
02-09-11, 21:31
You can't afford to drop $50 on a range fee/ammo, but you can afford to buy an $800 pistol? Since cash seems like it's an issue, I would stick to 9mm. It can do everything that the other calibers can with modern ammunition, at a much lower cost.
What I should have said was that it's too expensive to spend that much every time I want to go to the range to rent a gun. Granted range time is $20/hr and I could rent more than one gun (I think) at a time. But it's $12 per gun and then you have to buy their ammo, which in the case of .40 cal, is $22 per box of 50. I'd rather use that money and buy ammo for much less for the gun I end up purchasing. Not to mention if I go 9mm, I've got about 800-900 rounds sitting in an ammo can from when I had my G19.
A few thoughts:
LE and .mil going to .40 - IN MY OPINION, the overwhelming majority of the conversion from 9mm/.357 Mag/whatever to .40 is based on what the FBI did. Having watched LE firearms and ammo trends for a couple of decades now, there's definitely a pattern of people wanting to "keep up with the Jones'." Keep in mind, in that light, that the FBI stumbled into the .40 S&W almost by accident - they thought they wanted the 10mm, found that a lot of agents couldn't handle it, and the downloaded version could be smashed into a 9mm-sized cartridge that was higher capacity and could be stuffed into a smaller framed pistol... Also, with the exception of ONE special mission unit, no US military units are carrying .40 S&W. My agency (NCIS) converted to .40 S&W last year, but we're the only people in the Department of the Navy carrying .40...
IN MY OPINION, there's not a hill of beans worth of difference between the 9mm and .40 S&W for the majority of defensive shooting needs. The exception, IN MY OPINION, is for people (like uniformed LE) who need to be able to shoot into/through tactical barriers (especially automobile glass & body parts) as part of their defensive plan. For those people, I THINK the .40 S&W's heavier weight will serve them better. For all other applications, I don't think the .40's reduced capacity, and added recoil/blast are worth the extra "power" the round provides.
It is a FACT that 9mm pistols are cheaper to feed. Cheaper to feed + less recoil = more practice = better shooting. Save enough in ammunition costs, and you might even (gasp!) be able to afford to get professional training - the importance of which can never be understated, IMHO.
It is a FACT that, in similar type/size/weight pistols, the 9mm recoils noticeably less than the .40 S&W. How much this matters is subjective. In my case, I could "run" my G23 just as well as I could run my G19, based on side-by-side shooting on timed drills. The difference, in my case, was that I was experiencing consistently more pain in my hands and wrists after range sessions (for us, typically 200-500 rounds/week) when shooting the .40. I could easily have used my issued G19 for practice, and carried my personally owned G23, but I was never comfortable with that, on a personal basis.
As a final note, I will say that I have yet to hear from a single LE agency that converted to .40 S&W who's unhappy with the cartridge's performance - which is saying something. By the same token, with the right load, there are still plenty of major LE agencies out there (NYPD and others), who have no complaints at all about the 9mm's performance.
Regards,
Kevin
"The exception, IN MY OPINION, is for people (like uniformed LE) who need to be able to shoot into/through tactical barriers (especially automobile glass & body parts) as part of their defensive plan."
This is why I carry 155gr. .40 S&W JHP's that push over 1200fps.
JSTICFRALL
02-09-11, 22:08
^^^AWESOME reply! There's a lot of good points that you made and I appreciate you taking the time to type that up.
I have the P30 and the P229 E2, both in 9mm. They are both very accurate and the Sig 229 has a much better trigger action. I only have around 600 rds thru the 229, but it has functioned flawlessly. No issues with either pistol. There is little difference in ballistic results, between current 9mm & 40 s&w. I would rather have more rounds in my pistol and faster follow up shots, so i prefer 9mm.
If i had to choose one for carry, it would be the 229, until i could get some trigger work done on the P30. As it stands now, i carry a G19.
Unfortunately your logic is faulty. The P229 is essentially a 9mm P228 upgraded to .40 S&W with a different slide and spring. The USP series HKs on the other hand were designed for the .40 S&W round from the get-go, the P30 can be considered a derivative line from the USP's. Early SIG P229's had quite a bit of problem with frame wear from 155gr. duty loads; I have one of those still. As for the difference in weight, The SIG clocks in at 28.1 oz and the HK P30 at 26.1 oz, not what anyone would call a significant difference. In terms of comparative recoil the better fitted grip of the P30 should provide greater control to a wider variety of shooters than the standard SIG grips in any calibre; edge HK.
Interesting. I thought the P229 was one of the 1st pistols truly designed for .40. This is why they went w/ the stainless 1 piece slide. I understand the USP was the 1st pistol designed for .40, followed by the P229.
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