View Full Version : best designed 9mm full size
Right now my 9mm is a Sig 226, which is fine, but I feel like the design is dated. So I am asking for input as to which is currently the best designed full size 9mm, offering utmost reliability, good accuracy and good durability.
willowofwisp
02-03-11, 22:06
That's really a hard question to answer...there are such great full size 9mm...such as the glock 17 or m&p 9..I really don't think there is a best.
MadcapMagician
02-03-11, 22:14
The general consensus here will be the Glock 17, M&P 9mm and H&K P30. Read into some of the discussions in this forum. You'll find people passionate about each.
In the end, the 3rd Generation Glock 9mms are the golden standard.
Not hard to answer at all, if you're looking at service nine's, look at Glock first, specifically the G17 or G19...
Not hard to answer at all, if you're looking at service nine's, look at Glock first, specifically the G17 or G19...
+1 on the G19. That thing feels so great in your hands, functions flawlessly and is made to be shot
The Hi-Power ............. 80+ countries :D
The Hi-Power ............. 80+ countries :D
Hes not interested in "dated" pistols. :)
G17, easily. In a few more years perhaps the M&P will be up there with the G17 but right now the G17 has a lot of history behind it.
Also, for what its worth you can practically buy parts for the G17 in home depot, they're that prevalent and common.
The Hi-Power ............. 80+ countries :D
This has been discussed before. It's a good gun and I enjoy carrying mine, but there a better designs out there.
I think you first have to distinguish between 'dated' vs proven as well as wanting something new or different. The 226 you hold is proven as well as Glock, Beretta etc. Any manufacturer will have their problems, some less than others, as nothing is 100%. The greater issue is how well you can shoot that platform i.e. shoot a G17 faster and more accurate than your P226 or the reverse.
I've consolidated to Glock and Sig for the reason of shooting those two platforms the best. YMMV.
ah, yes ......... like the 1911, highly dated :D
Ok, having owned a G19 I say G17. (Or a G19 with a smooth frontstrap)
if there was a best, there wouldn't be any others on the market.
as for me I like glocks but I won't say it's the end-all-be-all
My first Glock was a Glock 17 purchased in 1988.
What is the diff between the HK30 and the HK2000?
Bolt_Overide
02-04-11, 00:32
You cant go wrong with either the glock or the M&P
In my opinion the best "designed" 9mm pistol is the HK P30. When they designed the P30, HK took everything into account. Grip modularity and different trigger variants to suit each shooters needs, requirments, preferences, etc. They are super accurate pistols. The factory sights suck, but that is the case with pretty much every factory pistol in my opinion.
HK's build quality on their pistols is second to no one.
They are also the most expensive pistols in their class.
The Glocks and M&P's are fantastic pistols, but both are lacking in some way or another.
Glocks: One size doesnt always fit all (grip/ergonomics).
M&P9's: A common complaint is that they are lacking in accuracy out past 20yds. I agree. And the factory M&P triggers suck compared to the other pistol I listed.
What is the diff between the HK30 and the HK2000?
More modularity to the
P30's grip.
m98evolution
02-04-11, 00:56
Another vote for Glock 19/17, M&P9, and HK P30 depending on shooter preferences/requirements.
F-Trooper05
02-04-11, 00:58
Rear mounted decocker which is separate from the safety lever on the P30. And more modularity to the
P30's grip.
The P2K has the same decocker as the P30.
the HK p30 kinda comes to mind.. i mean as far as like the most up to date pistol. glock of course makes what are arguably the best 9mm per dollar/ per part. if i could only have one 9mm it would be glock.
the HK p7 series is probably the most impressive 9mm of all time, which isn't to say it's the best for everyone.
The P2K has the same decocker as the P30.
Thanks for the correction;)
Hmmm... I keep on hearing that modern semi-auto's are "outdated."
Exactly what makes a P226 "outdated?" If the classic SIG P-Series is absolete, does that make the Glock platform outdated too? They were both developed in the early 80's.
Outdated only in so far as the fact that there are newer technologies out there that have become the new standard. Others can chime in and add what it means to them specifically.
A modern design has most of these things:
-polymer frame/decreased weight
-increased reliability
-decreased maintenance
-striker fired or DAO
-high capacity
-ergonomic modularity
ChicagoTex
02-04-11, 04:18
The P2000's grip is also .39" shorter than the P30's, which is why I prefer the P2000 for the CCW role. As this is a discussion on full-size guns (where presumably concealability is a fairly low priority) my vote would go to the P30, or the P30L (depending on which you feel balances better).
variablebinary
02-04-11, 04:31
G17
P30L
M&P
The polymer tri-fecta. You can't go wrong with any of them.
Here is my observation from running pretty much all modern polymer pistols listed as well as having attenting a few good high round count pistol classes with contained a unusually high number of P30's and rounding out with Glocks.
The P30 has a much smoother mag release/insertion. It feels the closest to a properly built 1911 with inserting a mag. No dragging/rubbing/tight spots.
The P30 has a much more positive ejection than the glock and M&P. If you watch, especially the G19, it seems that about half the time the case just barely tumbles out of the port. The P30 is not the G3 of pistols slinging brass, but it gets it out and out of the way. I noticed this at the USTC this past fall.
I have personally observed more (non-user induced) malfunctions with the Glock 19 than any of the others. Most are traced back to week ejection, with some I've seen feeding problems. I cannot think of a single malfunction I have seen with a P30 that wasn't user induced. Most of that being associated with the thumb resting on the slide stop and the pistol failing to lock back. Most of the M&P screw ups I've seen have been feeding issues.
Slide bite, unless you have beyatch hands, at some point a Glock is going to get you. The M&P and HK not so much so.
I personally find the bore axis argument to not hold water. I shoot the HK with as much muzzle rise as the others. I've made videos to check.
Pointability; if a Sig points well for you, the HK and M&P will feel more natural.
Triggers; it took me a while to warm up to it as I went from the M&P9 and a Springfield Pro to the HK LEM, but I really like the LEM now. The only thing I wish was the P30 LEM had the shorter reset of the HK45 LEM, but its really not that big of a deal. Since this past fall I have been practicing the walk back drill at home on a 12x16" piece of steel. I can get back to 200 yds. I have no problem (especially since I had a set of heinies installed) hitting the steel on a V4? LEM. If there was an issues with the LEM being inaccurate, I would not be making those shots.
Another observation, the P30 seems to be an intrinsicially more accurate pistol than the Glock, and esp the M&P. This was further validated by the performance of the P30 at the last LAV advanced pistol class at USTC, and I believe LAV himself may have stated the same observation as well.
Mine seems to shoot 147gr ammo more accurate than the other weights. It's not much difference, but noticible.
Hammer vs striker; I like being able to put my thumb over the hammer when holstering. It's a little extra assurance.
Parts; HK's are not as popular as the others, there are not as many incountry, so obviously there will not be the parts at every store that there will be with the others, but neither are sigs. When you buy the gun, buy the parts you will/may need and put them up.If you were buying for a whole PD I could understand this arguement, but for an individual, it's kind of silly.
Try them all out, if you seek the LEM; give it an honest 500+ rounds before you pass judgement, if you don't like it, you will have NO PROBLEM selling it.I would even say set it up in V4 and shoot it half a case, as most like that variant the best. If you are near SC I can help you with the parts swap. I've done it a few times:)
Business_Casual
02-04-11, 06:32
Good training can turn a pistol you thought was dated into a pistol you didn't know could be so effective.
So who is your pistol guru and how much training have you had with him?
B_C
John_Wayne777
02-04-11, 07:53
Right now my 9mm is a Sig 226, which is fine, but I feel like the design is dated. So I am asking for input as to which is currently the best designed full size 9mm, offering utmost reliability, good accuracy and good durability.
"Best designed" is kind of a nebulous concept. Glocks are designed to deliver durability and reliability at an affordable pricepoint. H&K P30's are designed to deliver durability and reliability and come in at a higher pricepoint. Glock proof-tests their barrels. H&K double proof-tests their barrels...but so far I'm unaware of any evidence that Glock barrels have any less of a service life than P30 barrels. H&K P30 springs are designed to go 25,000 rounds between replacement...and replacing some of them is hard. Glock springs need to be changed more often, but Glocks are designed to be simple and easy to work on and the replacement springs are usually cheap as chips. H&K's are designed with the most adjustable grip available on any semi-auto handgun. Glocks aren't as adjustable...but that doesn't seem to slow down a lot of Glock shooters. H&K P30s generally exhibit better than average mechanical accuracy...but I've seen good shooters knock down 6" steel plates at 100 yards with a Glock 19.
...see what I mean? There are certainly differences between the P30 and a Glock 17, but do those differences really matter for your intended use?
If you are going to buy another gun (and it doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with the one you have) then my advice would be to buy with a practical purpose, as in buying a weapon to fill a particular need you have. If you want something more concealable so you can carry it more often, a smaller weapon like the G19 or the P30 might fit the bill nicely. Etc. Buying a gun for the engineering rarely turns out as well as buying to fit a legitimate need you've identified.
Just because the design has been around for awhile doesn't mean it's any less effective than the newest design. Especially when it launches the same exact ammo.
I regularly run a Browning Hi Power (bone stock), the shot timer and targets can't tell that it's a "dated" design.
IMO, if you want to go with a plastic gun, just get a 9mm Glock. They're cheaper than anything out there and still the standard by which all other plastic guns are measured.
If you want metal, you're stuck with a Beretta or a Sig, since the CZ, Hi Power and 1911 were designed earlier and are now considered "old".
I think that John Wayne777 very succinctly summed things up.
I'd give my vote(s) to either the Glock G17 and/or HK P30/P30L also.
Best, Jon
ah, yes ......... like the 1911, highly dated :D
Puts me in mind of Harley Davidson motorcycles though. Functional, reliable, nostalgic, and wildly popular for over 100 years...but indeed highly dated and not a lot to do with modern design.
I think that John Wayne777 very succinctly summed things up.
I agree one-hundred-percent. And because of those factors I would encourage you to buy a Glock and if you were considering an HK P30, buy the difference in ammo. You will become prolific with the Glock and I assure you will be very happy. After shooting my friend's Gen 4 G17 1,000 rds, I am contemplating getting rid of my M&P.
Army Chief
02-04-11, 10:06
I struggle a bit with the notion that the P226 is any more dated than the Glock, and nothwithstanding the tremendous popularity of the G series, they do not represent "best in class" technology to my way of thinking. Granted, they are ubiquitous, work well and are affordable, but Glocks are still largely a product of the Wondernine era. To suggest that they are somehow on equal footing with the latest designs from heavy hitters like Smith & Wesson or Heckler and Koch seems like something of a stretch to me. This doesn't mean that many shooters still might not prefer a Glock to all else, but I tend to believe that these kinds of endorsements are driven more by exposure and experience than from any objective assessment that the Glock represents the most modern choice.
I guess the only lingering question here -- from a guy whose carry choices are admittedly anchored to a 100-year-old design -- is this: who cares? If you have a sidearm that suits your purposes, performs well and that you are able to employ effectively, it makes very little difference in practical terms whether it happens to be the most modern or not. There is a point of diminishing returns, sure, but I'd still wager that Vickers could wreak more havoc with a Borchardt than an entire small-town police force armed with P30s.
A rhetorical question, perhaps, but if the P226 has your confidence and shoots true, then what are you really looking for here?
AC
I struggle a bit with the notion that the P226 is any more dated than the Glock,
I bought my first P220 in 1979 (imported by Browning then as Sig had no US presence) and I bought my first Glock in 1988. I think 1987 was the first year of manufacture.
The problem I have with the P226 is that I have never done that will with the first shot DA. I shoot a Sig better than a 1911 from the 2nd shot on. But the first shot has always annoyed me. So now I have decided to drop the P220s from my safe and invite an HK45c in. I am looking to do the same thing with the P226 - out it goes in favor of something else. Just trying to figure out what.
gtmtnbiker98
02-04-11, 11:12
I bought my first P220 in 1979 (imported by Browning then as Sig had no US presence) and I bought my first Glock in 1988. I think 1987 was the first year of manufacture.
The problem I have with the P226 is that I have never done that will with the first shot DA. I shoot a Sig better than a 1911 from the 2nd shot on. But the first shot has always annoyed me. So now I have decided to drop the P220s from my safe and invite an HK45c in. I am looking to do the same thing with the P226 - out it goes in favor of something else. Just trying to figure out what.Well, IMO, since you've already decided on an HK45c then it would be logical to go with one of the varying flavors of the HK lineup. I'm a firm believer in keeping the manual of arms consistent.
The current full-size HK 9mm offerings are:
USP
USP Custom Combat
USP Combat Competition
P30L
The USPc,P2000 and P30 are deemed "compact" pistols.
Hmmm... I keep on hearing that modern semi-auto's are "outdated."
Exactly what makes a P226 "outdated?" If the classic SIG P-Series is absolete, does that make the Glock platform outdated too? They were both developed in the early 80's.
The main thing that will make it go the way of the dinosaur is the trigger system. For most people it takes to much training to master the first to second shot transition.
The main thing that will make it go the way of the dinosaur is the trigger system. For most people it takes to much training to master the first to second shot transition.
This... Is it a good gun? Yes. Are the DA/SA trigger's days numbered? IMHO, Yes.
I was wondering this a year ago when I was looking at polymer 9mm pistols. I went with the m&p. I compared it to the glock, xd, and a few others but not the HK (price was higher than I wanted to spend.) The m&p felt much better in my hand and has interchangeable backstraps, which is a very nice feature. It's reliability once they fixed the striker has been great and has received great reviews. The bore axis is also placed to make it a bit "softer" shooting, meaning less muzzle flip. They are all excellent weapons but my vote goes to the m&p.
Cocked and locked is fine for me. Just not SA/DA.
The USPc,P2000 and P30 are deemed "compact" pistols.
I guess I am more liberal with my definition of full size. By full size I mean not this:
http://www.vpc.org/graphics/glock26.jpg
Beat Trash
02-04-11, 12:09
I would also vote the HK P30 and the M&P.
John Wayne 777 has made some very valid points.
I like several things about the P30. But the cost of the P30, and of it's magazines when compared to the cost of an M&P and it's magazines, makes the M&P better suited for my needs.
It's all a matter of perspective though. To someone who's used to dropping $2-3K for a high end 1911, then the price of a HK P30 isn't that big of an issue.
I would argue that currently the three top 9mm's are the Glock 17/19, the M&P and the HK P30. But although many will tear up the internet wavelengths arguing which of the three is the best, the answer to that is dependent on the needs of the individual user.
Many people do not realize this. Instead they will argue that their personal choice is somehow the best single choice for every person in every situation. This being done in an attempt to either boost their ego, or to justify in their minds their choice of firearms.
To the OP, I'd try to rent all three of these guns, preferably at the same time. Be open minded and I think you will have decided for yourself once you walk off the firing line.
I guess the only lingering question here -- from a guy whose carry choices are admittedly anchored to a 100-year-old design -- is this: who cares?
AC
Weeeewh! Someone finally said it.
RogerinTPA
02-04-11, 13:27
+1 on the G19. That thing feels so great in your hands, functions flawlessly and is made to be shot
In some people's hands, not in all. The grip for the Glock sucks for many people, including myself, which had owned one for over a decade, which is why after shooting the M&P45, I trade in all my other pistols for them.
To the OP, rent and shoot all of the ones you are interested in and choose the one that's best for you. I vote M&P9 or HK.
Advantages the Glock 19 has over the Sig P226: Low bore axis, lighter weight, simple & consistent trigger action, smaller for carry. I love the 226 and will probably always own one, but the G19 is what leaves the house with me everyday.
Glock's, M&P's are probably my top pick with a definite plus going towards the M&P. Bad thing is I don't own one yet but do have Glocks.
Even though it may be "old"...but the top pick of all my 9mm's is my CZ-75 Compact. It is the nicest handling pistol I have in 9mm and would be the last one I ever got rid of.
mrosamilia
02-04-11, 16:53
Advantages the Glock 19 has over the Sig P226: Low bore axis, lighter weight, simple & consistent trigger action, smaller for carry. I love the 226 and will probably always own one, but the G19 is what leaves the house with me everyday.
My thoughts exactly my 226E2 is awesome, but I always have my 19 with me.
The main thing that will make it go the way of the dinosaur is the trigger system. For most people it takes to much training to master the first to second shot transition.
I have to disagree. The vast majority of quality weapons made today, are made for or developed for trial/adoption of the US or foreign top tier .mil units, or adoption for the whole military of a country. Since certain Tier 1 units (US and foreign) still ask for and choose weapons that are DA/SA, they will continue to be developed. The US recently ordered 500k more M9's and the British Military just replaced their Hi-Powers with DA/SA SIG P226's, following in the footsteps of the SAS/SBS. With that being said, I don't think the DA/SA platforms will be going the way of the dodo bird in the next 20-25 years, if at all.
I prefer to use DA/SA SIGs at work and for my CCW's, and I fail to see why people have such a hard time with the transition. The only time that I notice the difference in trigger pulls is when I'm standing on a static range punching paper. If that's all people are doing, then yeah, DA/SA handguns probably aren't for you. When I'm shooting under a timer or in dynamic training environment, or even against a buddy for bragging rights, I do not notice the difference between the two pulls. I actually shoot a LOT better under pressure, so it may just be me.
IMO, people think about the trigger too much, and that screws them up. I tend to start thinking about the trigger too when I'm paper punching in a static position, and it screws me up. But in more fluid training environments, there's not much time to stand there and think of the trigger.
I have to disagree. The vast majority of quality weapons made today, are made for or developed for trial/adoption of the US or foreign top tier .mil units, or adoption for the whole military of a country. Since certain Tier 1 units (US and foreign) still ask for and choose weapons that are DA/SA, they will continue to be developed. The US recently ordered 500k more M9's and the British Military just replaced their Hi-Powers with DA/SA SIG P226's, following in the footsteps of the SAS/SBS. With that being said, I don't think the DA/SA platforms will be going the way of the dodo bird in the next 20-25 years, if at all.
I prefer to use DA/SA SIGs at work and for my CCW's, and I fail to see why people have such a hard time with the transition. The only time that I notice the difference in trigger pulls is when I'm standing on a static range punching paper. If that's all people are doing, then yeah, DA/SA handguns probably aren't for you. When I'm shooting under a timer or in dynamic training environment, or even against a buddy for bragging rights, I do not notice the difference between the two pulls. I actually shoot a LOT better under pressure, so it may just be me.
IMO, people think about the trigger too much, and that screws them up. I tend to start thinking about the trigger too when I'm paper punching in a static position, and it screws me up. But in more fluid training environments, there's not much time to stand there and think of the trigger.
Define and or give an example of the "Teir 1 units" that ask for SA/DA weapons. The developement of the SA/DA that you refer to is what led to guns like the M&P9. It has not as much to do with thinking about the trigger as it does mechanics. If it works for you great, but there are options out there that will be more user friendly. Just because the military is still using the M9 does not convince me of anything other than they have to much money sunk into the platform.
Define and or give an example of the "Teir 1 units" that ask for SA/DA weapons. The developement of the SA/DA that you refer to is what led to guns like the M&P9. It has not as much to do with thinking about the trigger as it does mechanics. If it works for you great, but there are options out there that will be more user friendly. Just because the military is still using the M9 does not convince me of anything other than they have to much money sunk into the platform.
The SAS and SBS went from SA Hi-Powers to DA/SA SIGs. NSW continues to buy P226's and P239's. I'm not going to write a book, but if you do some research, DA/SA handguns are the majority among the worlds SOF. (Not trying to be an ass... just don't want to list them all.)
DEVGRU just selected another DA/SA platform with the HK45c v3 (decocker only?). I believe that SIG and Glock were also tested at the same time. Here's a few quotes from one of the SMEs on this board and responding to guys' questions as to "why DA/SA."
Many of the posts on this topic are becoming very ARF.COMish.
Glock makes a good pistol (specifically in 9mm) and the HK45C has its merits as well. I don't believe NSW will ever again adopt a pistol that does not have a DA trigger. The Glock .45 does not have the features that NSW operators need or want in a pistol for a variety of reasons.
DA/SA ala the SIG P226.
The HK45C has more of the features that NSW is looking for in a gun. This weapon is to fill the role of a "suppressed" .45; in this role the HK was declared superior in overall evaluations.
The SAS and SBS went from SA Hi-Powers to DA/SA SIGs. NSW continues to buy P226's and P239's. I'm not going to write a book, but if you do some research, DA/SA handguns are the majority among the worlds SOF. (Not trying to be an ass... just don't want to list them all.)
DEVGRU just selected another DA/SA platform with the HK45c v3 (decocker only?). I believe that SIG and Glock were also tested at the same time. Here's a few quotes from one of the SMEs on this board and responding to guys' questions as to "why DA/SA."
Sounds to me like the DA/SA is being picked for other reasons. My bet is that none of those reasons would benifit the average person carrying a firearm for his or her own personal protection. Again, if you train with it and it works for you that is great. I know there are many out there who shoot very well with them. Still there are better options available to those who can let their own dollar decide.
Sounds to me like the DA/SA is being picked for other reasons. My bet is that none of those reasons would benifit the average person carrying a firearm for his or her own personal protection. Again, if you train with it and it works for you that is great. I know there are many out there who shoot very well with them. Still there are better options available to those who can let their own dollar decide.
As always, it boils down to personal preference. But I wouldn't say one platform/action is "better" than the other. They all have +/-'s of their own.
I'm a M&P9 guy... with the G19 kept in perpetual reserve.
But the XDm9 3.8 and 4.5 have got my attention as of late.
The XDm's certainly do have plenty of 'design' to them.
One could argue that the G17 I bought in 1988, is not the same as the current Gen. 4 G17. Which is good, as my very early model G17 would throw the brass right into my face!
As always, it boils down to personal preference. But I wouldn't say one platform/action is "better" than the other. They all have +/-'s of their own.
Agreed. On personal preference. I thought my Smith&Wesson 5906 was the shit in 1990. To me the M&P with Apex sear is a way better platform than the old Smith. Both work, but my standards have changed since I was in my teens. Long ago I quit rocking the cassette deck and wearing a mullet too.:D
Right now my 9mm is a Sig 226, which is fine, but I feel like the design is dated. So I am asking for input as to which is currently the best designed full size 9mm, offering utmost reliability, good accuracy and good durability.
Honestly I'm not sure what you're looking for. You say your Sig is reliable, accurate and durable. If this is the case and, even if Glock, HK and M&P are more up to date designs, what else are these going to give you that the Sig doesn't?
Agreed. On personal preference. I thought my Smith&Wesson 5906 was the shit in 1990. To me the M&P with Apex sear is a way better platform than the old Smith. Both work, but my standards have changed since I was in my teens. Long ago I quit rocking the cassette deck and wearing a mullet too.:D
Ahhh.... I guess I was right in the Beretta topic below this thread. Some men equate firearms to fashion, or whatever is in style. :haha:
You can buy all of the M&P's until your hearts content, because I know that I will not be! I've seen enough first hand at work and from good friends who are issued them, that a shortage of them will not affect me one bit. ;)
TheSmiter1
02-05-11, 01:06
Ahhh.... I guess I was right in the Beretta topic below this thread. Some men equate firearms to fashion, or whatever is in style. :haha:
You can buy all of the M&P's until your hearts content, because I know that I will not be! I've seen enough first hand at work and from good friends who are issued them, that a shortage of them will not affect me one bit. ;)
Or maybe he just likes the platform and hasn't had issues with it?
When you say that the M&P sucks because you've seen it suck, you're saying the exact same thing as the people you get pissed at for bashing Sig for QC because they've had or seen problems with Sigs.
Out of curiosity, what were the issues with the M&Ps? Is there a specific issue that occurred most often?
Ahhh.... I guess I was right in the Beretta topic below this thread. Some men equate firearms to fashion, or whatever is in style. :haha:
You can buy all of the M&P's until your hearts content, because I know that I will not be! I've seen enough first hand at work and from good friends who are issued them, that a shortage of them will not affect me one bit. ;)
Not a slave to fashion. I have learned it is a benifit to embrace modern technology when it has been proven to work. :D
Or maybe he just likes the platform and hasn't had issues with it?
When you say that the M&P sucks because you've seen it suck, you're saying the exact same thing as the people you get pissed at for bashing Sig for QC because they've had or seen problems with Sigs.
Out of curiosity, what were the issues with the M&Ps? Is there a specific issue that occurred most often?
Like I said, if he's comfortable with them, then great. It's all about personal preference.
Most from what I have seen run good, but from the little quirks here and there, I don't think they are ready for "prime time" yet. One of the problems that I saw that made me go "WTF" was... a shooter standing next to me on line and we were working on speed reloads. We shoot the mags in the gun until slide lock, he grabs a fresh mag and as he slams it home to reload the base plate falls off dumping the contents (spring, follower and rounds) onto the ground. In my head I'm thinking "murphy" as the instructor is yelling "fix it!" right behind him. He grabs his other mag, slams it home and I'll be damned if the next mag didn't do the same thing. The instructor, who is also an armorer, yells "what the ****" while we are standing there looking like :eek:. I've also seen one where the slide locked to the rear and wouldn't go back forward. I didn't ask what happened to that one, but it went back to Smith. Rusty slides, and I live in a relatively dry area. I personaly didn't like the triggers on the ones I have shot either.
A couple of agencies (State, County) around me recently transitioned to them because S&W pretty much gave them free guns and leather for their USP .40's. Friends that are issued them said that there has been some problems (don't know the extent) with magazines, and triggers. I don't know if they're talking about the reset or what. Some guys like them more than the USP's, where others would much rather have their old guns back.
Most of them aren't "gun guys" so we don't really talk about them much. A lot LEO's were happy with the deal that S&W had of buy 1 FS and 1 compact M&P at LE pricing, then you receive a free J-Frame. Pretty good deal actually, and I'm kicking myself for not hopping on that.
Then I read on here and other boards about some models are having accuracy problems. I've never personaly heard of that complaint from anyone. Once S&W gets the quirks worked out of them, they are going to be an excellent platform, IMO.
TheSmiter1
02-05-11, 02:35
Like I said, if he's comfortable with them, then great. It's all about personal preference.
Most from what I have seen run good, but from the little quirks here and there, I don't think they are ready for "prime time" yet. One of the problems that I saw that made me go "WTF" was... a shooter standing next to me on line and we were working on speed reloads. We shoot the mags in the gun until slide lock, he grabs a fresh mag and as he slams it home to reload the base plate falls off dumping the contents (spring, follower and rounds) onto the ground. In my head I'm thinking "murphy" as the instructor is yelling "fix it!" right behind him. He grabs his other mag, slams it home and I'll be damned if the next mag didn't do the same thing. The instructor, who is also an armorer, yells "what the ****" while we are standing there looking like :eek:. I've also seen one where the slide locked to the rear and wouldn't go back forward. I didn't ask what happened to that one, but it went back to Smith. Rusty slides, and I live in a relatively dry area. I personaly didn't like the triggers on the ones I have shot either.
A couple of agencies (State, County) around me recently transitioned to them because S&W pretty much gave them free guns and leather for their USP .40's. Friends that are issued them said that there has been some problems (don't know the extent) with magazines, and triggers. I don't know if they're talking about the reset or what. Some guys like them more than the USP's, where others would much rather have their old guns back.
Most of them aren't "gun guys" so we don't really talk about them much. A lot LEO's were happy with the deal that S&W had of buy 1 FS and 1 compact M&P at LE pricing, then you receive a free J-Frame. Pretty good deal actually, and I'm kicking myself for not hopping on that.
Then I read on here and other boards about some models are having accuracy problems. I've never personaly heard of that complaint from anyone. Once S&W gets the quirks worked out of them, they are going to be an excellent platform, IMO.
Those are some interesting issues. I think I've heard of the base plates popping off before. I've also heard that the mag springs wear out quickly. The accuracy thing I've definitely heard of, and this would be one of my main concerns about purchasing one.
As much as I think they're a good platform, they certainly have some issues, although they are still relatively new in firearm terms. So I definitely see where you're coming from.
Like I said, if he's comfortable with them, then great. It's all about personal preference.
Most from what I have seen run good, but from the little quirks here and there, I don't think they are ready for "prime time" yet. One of the problems that I saw that made me go "WTF" was... a shooter standing next to me on line and we were working on speed reloads. We shoot the mags in the gun until slide lock, he grabs a fresh mag and as he slams it home to reload the base plate falls off dumping the contents (spring, follower and rounds) onto the ground. In my head I'm thinking "murphy" as the instructor is yelling "fix it!" right behind him. He grabs his other mag, slams it home and I'll be damned if the next mag didn't do the same thing. The instructor, who is also an armorer, yells "what the ****" while we are standing there looking like :eek:. I've also seen one where the slide locked to the rear and wouldn't go back forward. I didn't ask what happened to that one, but it went back to Smith. Rusty slides, and I live in a relatively dry area. I personaly didn't like the triggers on the ones I have shot either.
A couple of agencies (State, County) around me recently transitioned to them because S&W pretty much gave them free guns and leather for their USP .40's. Friends that are issued them said that there has been some problems (don't know the extent) with magazines, and triggers. I don't know if they're talking about the reset or what. Some guys like them more than the USP's, where others would much rather have their old guns back.
Most of them aren't "gun guys" so we don't really talk about them much. A lot LEO's were happy with the deal that S&W had of buy 1 FS and 1 compact M&P at LE pricing, then you receive a free J-Frame. Pretty good deal actually, and I'm kicking myself for not hopping on that.
Then I read on here and other boards about some models are having accuracy problems. I've never personaly heard of that complaint from anyone. Once S&W gets the quirks worked out of them, they are going to be an excellent platform, IMO.
It is an excellent platform. Smith had a run of slides that had spotty Melonite. I had one that they replaced for free. Had one base plate came off a mag. It was not seated properly from the start. I have done hundreds of mag changes with 6 different examples, dropping them on whatever rocks,mud, dirt with no problems. Grant from G&R has run more rounds thru his M&P than I will ever be able to afford with little issue. I have three more friends that have been running them in the same classes with me monthly during the summer for the last few years with no issues. The trigger is not the best from the factory, but a $30.00 Apex sear fixed it for me. The trigger is now better than all my pistols except my Springfield Pro. The M&P9 will shoot as well as your Sig unless you are shooting it off a rest at 25 yards. Maybe its time to hang your plaid pants back in the closet?:haha:
RogerinTPA
02-05-11, 09:37
Sounds to me like the DA/SA is being picked for other reasons. My bet is that none of those reasons would benifit the average person carrying a firearm for his or her own personal protection. Again, if you train with it and it works for you that is great. I know there are many out there who shoot very well with them. Still there are better options available to those who can let their own dollar decide.
Back in the day, way before one handed slide racks were thought of, Army Aviation issued S&W and Ruger revolvers to aviators, and not the 1911. They wanted aviators to be able to operate the weapon without manipulating the slide, one handed, in case of a crash landing where one hand, arm or fingers would be broken. The 1911 was considered unsafe with a round in the chamber and didn't want us with it cocked and locked. It wasn't until the SA/DA Berreta's came on line, that the revolvers were traded in, and we were required to qualify with the first shot double action only. I suspect some similar thought process is involved.
Back in the day, way before one handed slide racks were thought of, Army Aviation issued S&W and Ruger revolvers to aviators, and not the 1911. They wanted aviators to be able to operate the weapon without manipulating the slide, one handed, in case of a crash landing where one hand, arm or fingers would be broken. The 1911 was considered unsafe with a round in the chamber and didn't want us with it cocked and locked. It wasn't until the SA/DA Berreta's came on line, that the revolvers were traded in, and we were required to qualify with the first shot double action only. I suspect some similar thought process is involved.
Good info. Thanks
Honestly I'm not sure what you're looking for. You say your Sig is reliable, accurate and durable.
Yes. But I do not shoot it well first shot. And since the Sig is a late 1970s design, I am just guessing there may have been some improvements made since there. Sounds like I need to go shoot the P30 first and see if that does it for me.
I don't think anyone mentioned Walther in this thread. Does Walther offer something worth considering?
Yes. But I do not shoot it well first shot. And since the Sig is a late 1970s design, I am just guessing there may have been some improvements made since there. Sounds like I need to go shoot the P30 first and see if that does it for me.
I don't think anyone mentioned Walther in this thread. Does Walther offer something worth considering?
OK, it's the double action of the first shot. Well, have you thought about getting the trigger worked on? My 226 has a really smooth DA first shot trigger pull, but I understand what you're saying. P30 V1 or Glock 17 might be exactly what you're looking for.
Can't really tell you anything about the Walther as I've never shot one and I honestly don't know anyone that has one.
Back in the day, way before one handed slide racks were thought of, Army Aviation issued S&W and Ruger revolvers to aviators, and not the 1911. They wanted aviators to be able to operate the weapon without manipulating the slide, one handed, in case of a crash landing where one hand, arm or fingers would be broken. The 1911 was considered unsafe with a round in the chamber and didn't want us with it cocked and locked. It wasn't until the SA/DA Berreta's came on line, that the revolvers were traded in, and we were required to qualify with the first shot double action only. I suspect some similar thought process is involved.
Ummm... I highly doubt what you said applies to some of the worlds best and most experieced combat shooters.
Yes. But I do not shoot it well first shot. And since the Sig is a late 1970s design, I am just guessing there may have been some improvements made since there. Sounds like I need to go shoot the P30 first and see if that does it for me.
I don't think anyone mentioned Walther in this thread. Does Walther offer something worth considering?
Instead of spending 1k on a new weapon and mags, I would buy ammo and get proficient with what you have. I would also stick to one platform/trigger action.
The P226 is an early 80's design, along with the Beretta 92FS and G17. The only "improvement" that I have seen on newer designs are modularity of the grips. But if your current grip fits your hand fine, I don't see the point. Some people think that a plastic frame is better than a metal one, and some don't.
Yes. But I do not shoot it well first shot. And since the Sig is a late 1970s design, I am just guessing there may have been some improvements made since there. Sounds like I need to go shoot the P30 first and see if that does it for me.
I don't think anyone mentioned Walther in this thread. Does Walther offer something worth considering?
Try and shoot an M&P with the Apex sear in it. You will not want to go back to the Sig.
Instead of spending 1k on a new weapon and mags, I would buy ammo and get proficient with what you have. I would also stick to one platform/trigger action.
The P226 is an early 80's design, along with the Beretta 92FS and G17. The only "improvement" that I have seen on newer designs are modularity of the grips. But if your current grip fits your hand fine, I don't see the point. Some people think that a plastic frame is better than a metal one, and some don't.
M&P and mags are only a little more than half that cost. One other "improvement" is the trigger system. You seem unable to accept this. Good thing most law enforcement agencys have been smart enough to dump the DA/SA.
I seem to always come back to Glock. The more schools I go to and the more rounds I put down range, the more my confidence in Glock is raised. There are other pistols I shoot more accurately but for a combat handgun, I can't think of anything I'd rather carry. It's the AK of the pistol world.
I had a H&K P30. Fit my hands like it was made for me, shot great, but...just could not get used to that loooonnnngggg trigger reset. Whenever I started to speed up I found myself pulling the trigger back before the hammer reset. No boom. Had to sell it.
I also have a P226 that I carry alot during the winter. 18rd Mecgar mags. Hard to argue with 19 rounds of Gold Dot.
M&P and mags are only a little more than half that cost. One other "improvement" is the trigger system. You seem unable to accept this. Good thing most law enforcement agencys have been smart enough to dump the DA/SA.
Dude, get over yourself. In my opinion, the triggers/actions are about personal preference. Some like strikers, some like DA/SA, some like LEM/DAK. It's also funny that you're calling the M&P trigger an improvement when that's one of the biggest bitches about them.
Just like a typical M&P guy, you're happy to see them in the holsters of cops. All that means is that they got a hell of a deal on them or that they were free in exchange of the older models. Do you really think that the Departments in my area got a better gun when they traded the USPs for free M&P's? I say hell no, but they were sure a sweet deal! And believe me... striker vs DA/SA was not even part of the equation for the switch. It was all about $$.
DanjojoUSMC
02-05-11, 13:39
I have to agree with S-1. The switch to striker-fired pistols was/is more about getting a good thing at a fantastic price. It's not necessarily about the good thing being better than the others.
I always saw the majority of Marines doing pistol qual easily master the DA/SA transition within a couple days. I don't see how LEO's who have weeks, months, and years with the pistols could have such a hard time.
Totally agreed. When we were looking for replacements for our Gen 2 Glocks I had a fit when I heard what they were being replaced with. I won't trash a particular weapon on a public forum because I'm sure there are people that are perfectly happy with it but lets just say it was an unproven design that still had bugs to be worked out and in my opinion had no business on a duty rig. Why? Because they were offered for free in exchange for our old weapons. That should say it all...
Dude, get over yourself. In my opinion, the triggers/actions are about personal preference. Some like strikers, some like DA/SA, some like LEM/DAK. It's also funny that you're calling the M&P trigger an improvement when that's one of the biggest bitches about them.
Just like a typical M&P guy, you're happy to see them in the holsters of cops. All that means is that they got a hell of a deal on them or that they were free in exchange of the older models. Do you really think that the Departments in my area got a better gun when they traded the USPs for free M&P's? I say hell no, but they were sure a sweet deal! And believe me... striker vs DA/SA was not even part of the equation for the switch. It was all about $$.
All gun manufacturers do the same thing (trade the dept.'s used guns for new ones). Then the manufacturer sells those used guns for $100-$300 and that is their profit.
So when a PD, Agency or SO goes with a new gun it because they want to switch calibers or want to switch guns. In both cases, they switch to a platform that they believe is superior to what they are currently using.
To better answer your question, no they did not get the guns for "free" as they had to pay for the previous guns that they traded.
C4
The golden rule to follow with a HG is to try and keep the trigger pull at roughly double the weight of the pistol. The reason for this is because you will be able to shoot it better.
There are two things that make it HARDER to shoot a gun accurately. That is trigger pull weight and having two different trigger pulls. This doesn't mean that people don't run DA/SA guns well (as I have some shoot lights out). These same people typically shoot 10,000-20,000 rounds a year and practice weekly.
For the majority of LE/Military, they just don't get to shoot that much. So DA/SA guns are a real hindrance IMHO. Striker fired guns give them a consistent 5-6 pound trigger pull. While not ideal, it is much better than an 8-10lbs trigger pull (first shot).
C4
Totally agreed. When we were looking for replacements for our Gen 2 Glocks I had a fit when I heard what they were being replaced with. I won't trash a particular weapon on a public forum because I'm sure there are people that are perfectly happy with it but lets just say it was an unproven design that still had bugs to be worked out and in my opinion had no business on a duty rig. Why? Because they were offered for free in exchange for our old weapons. That should say it all...
It really doesn't say it all because someone at your facility, someone BELIEVED that the Gen 2 Glocks you were using had an issue or that it was missing a capability that was desired. Now that person might have been a moron and was making a poor choice (which happens all the time in the LE world).
If your group was large enough, Glock, S&W, etc would have all offered the same deal (free guns in exchange).
C4
Dude, get over yourself. In my opinion, the triggers/actions are about personal preference. Some like strikers, some like DA/SA, some like LEM/DAK. It's also funny that you're calling the M&P trigger an improvement when that's one of the biggest bitches about them.
Just like a typical M&P guy, you're happy to see them in the holsters of cops. All that means is that they got a hell of a deal on them or that they were free in exchange of the older models. Do you really think that the Departments in my area got a better gun when they traded the USPs for free M&P's? I say hell no, but they were sure a sweet deal! And believe me... striker vs DA/SA was not even part of the equation for the switch. It was all about $$.
Dude, sorry I upset you with my own personal preference. The OP said himself that he is not happy with the DA pull on the first shot. Why? I would say because it sucks compared to a lighter consistant trigger pull on every shot. Good first shot placement under stress with a heavier longer DA pull is harder than with a lighter shorter pull( this is why I shoot M&Ps and 1911s). The M&P with or without the Apex sear it is an improvement over an SA/DA setup. Have you shot an M&P with the Apex sear? I have shot both the p226, p220 and the M&P with and without the Apex sear. Even without the Apex sear it is an easier gun for most people to shoot effectively. DA/SA is dying for a reason. If you like it fine, more power to you. The more companys selling guns the better for all of us.
It is an excellent platform. Smith had a run of slides that had spotty Melonite. I had one that they replaced for free.
I'm not so sure about this. I'm not an expert on metallurgy, and I'm not looking to debate the topic of those sporadically rusting slides, however, they are not ancient history, they continue to sporadically occur, it occurs to me that tenifer/melonite was never intended for stainless alloys.
I seem to recall that the process is particularly hostile to the chromimum content of stainless, that it becomes brittle, and in fact becomes far less resistent to oxidation. Perhaps one of the industry pro's could comment on it for us.
As it stands, my belief is that S&W's vendor periodically overdoes/underdoes a batch of the stainless M&P slides, the result being that they rust.
I'm not so sure about this. I'm not an expert on metallurgy, and I'm not looking to debate the topic of those sporadically rusting slides, however, they are not ancient history, they continue to sporadically occur, it occurs to me that tenifer/melonite was never intended for stainless alloys.
I seem to recall that the process is particularly hostile to the chromimum content of stainless, that it becomes brittle, and in fact becomes far less resistent to oxidation. Perhaps one of the industry pro's could comment on it for us.
As it stands, my belief is that S&W's vendor periodically overdoes/underdoes a batch of the stainless M&P slides, the result being that they rust.
It would only rust in certain stops. Other spots that had the finish worn clean would not rust. I was told by Smith that the slide was not cleaned before the Melonite process. The new slide has a lot of holster wear and has yet to rust.
Totally agreed. Money is the driving factor when it comes to choices especially on a department level. DA/SA transition is a training issue that is easily learned if the student is willing and interested.
Dude, get over yourself. In my opinion, the triggers/actions are about personal preference. Some like strikers, some like DA/SA, some like LEM/DAK. It's also funny that you're calling the M&P trigger an improvement when that's one of the biggest bitches about them.
Just like a typical M&P guy, you're happy to see them in the holsters of cops. All that means is that they got a hell of a deal on them or that they were free in exchange of the older models. Do you really think that the Departments in my area got a better gun when they traded the USPs for free M&P's? I say hell no, but they were sure a sweet deal! And believe me... striker vs DA/SA was not even part of the equation for the switch. It was all about $$.
Totally agreed. Money is the driving factor when it comes to choices especially on a department level. DA/SA transition is a training issue that is easily learned if the student is willing and interested.
Yes. Training issue. Most "students or officers" in my city/county shoot just enough to qualify once a year.
TheSmiter1
02-05-11, 15:17
Totally agreed. When we were looking for replacements for our Gen 2 Glocks I had a fit when I heard what they were being replaced with. I won't trash a particular weapon on a public forum because I'm sure there are people that are perfectly happy with it but lets just say it was an unproven design that still had bugs to be worked out and in my opinion had no business on a duty rig. Why? Because they were offered for free in exchange for our old weapons. That should say it all...
Kind of like Glock did and still does on occasion?
In this case, Glock as well as a few others would not match that offer. Unfortunately, the guy who signs the purchase orders isn't a gun guy, all he sees are numbers and that what he bases his decisions on. We had no reason to switch away from Glocks.
Moose-Knuckle
02-05-11, 15:35
GLOCK 17, everyone else has spent the last 25 years playing catch up to GLOCK.
The H&K P30 is with out a doubt the most natural feeling handgun straight out of the box. But is about $300-$400 more than a G17 and the mag prices are insane. I just got another 10 factory hi cap G17 mags for $15 a pop back in August.
I went from a Sig P226R to an M&P9. Couldn't be happier.
It would only rust in certain stops. Other spots that had the finish worn clean would not rust. I was told by Smith that the slide was not cleaned before the Melonite process. The new slide has a lot of holster wear and has yet to rust.
No, thats not quite what I meant, though you may well be right. What I'm curious about is, why would they choose to use stainless at all? The acid bath has been proven to be detrimental to stainless, or at least that was my understanding.
I have always been curious as to why S&W wouldn't just use carbon steel, which when treated to the melonite, becomes essentially impervious to oxidation. It seems to me that there must be some unknown(unknown to myself;)) benefit to using stainless as opposed to carbon steel. For instance, why doesn't Glock use stainless?
So I am asking for input as to which is currently the best designed full size 9mm, offering utmost reliability, good accuracy and good durability.
All this 3 factors in one pistol? Full size?
Only one comes to my mind: HK USP Elite. Insanely reliable and durable like every HK USP. Capable of less than 1"@27yard offhand with good ammo (seen that personally more than once). Definitely "full size".
I can imagine some custom made pistols that can have same or maybe better accuracy (like Pardini GT9-6"), but not with this level of durability and reliability. And usually not just out of the box.
For some ergonomy might suck and as every HK it could benefit from better trigger, but for all this 3 factors combined, Elite is unmatched in my book.
Yeah, the USP's are also a great choice. Only downside are the insane price for mags and parts. And they don't detail strip as easily as a Glock.
And they don't detail strip as easily as a Glock.
It depends... if your experience of detail stripping comes from Glock or from USP. I can detail strip USP with finger up in my ....... but I can not figure out how to detail strip Glock :thank_you2:
RogerinTPA
02-05-11, 17:14
Ummm... I highly doubt what you said applies to some of the worlds best and most experieced combat shooters.
Doubt all you want but are you sure about that? I seriously doubt that you do. You really sure that one handed manipulation of a side arm is beyond them, in case of one arm, hand or fingers are shot, broken or in some way immobilized, as their reason to constantly chose a SA/DA pistol? My post was speculation as to what may be a similar thought process, rather than what actually is the case.
As an owner of S & W 3rd Gen semi autos(3913), S & W 2nd Gen
(457), Glocks (23, 27, 34, 35, and 36) and an assortement of "dated" 1911s, and a lover of all of them, I would say the Glock 34/35 is my favorite pistol design for a full size semi-auto. So for me, the best full sized 9mm is the 34.
The 457 stays in my truck because it is cheap, yet a reliable 45 acp. I sometimes carry the 3913, but tend more toward the Glock 23. If open carry is ever approved in Florida I would carry the 34 or 35, but they are full sized and not for concealed carry, at least in my mind.
They are my favorite pistols though.
Pistol Shooter
02-05-11, 17:19
Yeah, the USP's are also a great choice. Only downside are the insane price for mags and parts. And they don't detail strip as easily as a Glock.
With all respect to you, HK pistols break down just as easily as a Glock if you know what you're doing.
Are HK mags more expensive?
Yes, they are a bit higher. That's the price you pay when you roll with a top tier sidearm. ;)
BTW, I think Glock makes a solid , economical handgun and I respect them.
All gun manufacturers do the same thing (trade the dept.'s used guns for new ones). Then the manufacturer sells those used guns for $100-$300 and that is their profit.
So when a PD, Agency or SO goes with a new gun it because they want to switch calibers or want to switch guns. In both cases, they switch to a platform that they believe is superior to what they are currently using.
To better answer your question, no they did not get the guns for "free" as they had to pay for the previous guns that they traded.
C4
Grant, where you're at, it may be different. Here, every 7-8 years or so, the State bids for new weapons for the State Patrol. Usually the best deal is picked, as in cheapest or free. Some Departments (if big enough) latch on to that state bid, and that's why you see other agencys switch to the same gun, holsters etc etc at the same time. It keeps new guns in holsters to prevent maintenance issues, and gives them brand new shiny leather.
The same goes for ammo. A lot of departments latch on to the state bid for cheaper bulk buy, if you order enough ammo. For years I was issued 124gr HydraShoks, despite better ammo available on the market (Rangers, Gold Dots), just because of the state bid. At the time, our practice/range ammo was also Federal (American Eagle). Now the issued ammo is Gold Dots (thank god) and our range ammo is now Blazer because of CCI's bid. I'm much more happy now that I get boxes of Gold Dot 124gr+P for free. :D The same concept applies for rifle ammo.
DA/SA is dying for a reason.
It is not "dying" for reasons that I already posted about. There are just more options available, and that's a good thing. Striker guns are usually plastic and are cheaper to make, which equals cheaper to sell, and that equals to more people buying them.
If price was not an issue, and we all demanded the most reliable guns, H&K would sell a lot more handguns in our market than they do.
It is not "dying" for reasons that I already posted about. Striker guns are usually plastic and are cheaper to make, which equals cheaper to sell, and that equals to more people buying them.
You just said it youself. Cheaper to make, cheaper to sell, more people buying them. Add in the fact that Glock and Smith&Wesson put out a quality product and you have the death of DA/SA guns.
With all respect to you, HK pistols break down just as easily as a Glock if you know what you're doing.
Are HK mags more expensive?
Yes, they are a bit higher. That's the price you pay when you roll with a top tier sidearm. ;)
BTW, I think Glock makes a solid , economical handgun and I respect them.
You're probably right. I've never been to an HK armorer's school. I like the Glock because I can take the same punch that's in my AK's buttstock and disassemble the entire gun.
Puts me in mind of Harley Davidson motorcycles though. Functional, reliable, nostalgic, and wildly popular for over 100 years...but indeed highly dated and not a lot to do with modern design.
kinda like the tilting barrel design?
;)
You just said it youself. Cheaper to make, cheaper to sell, more people buying them. Add in the fact that Glock and Smith&Wesson put out a quality product and you have the death of DA/SA guns.
<sigh>
Ok, you're right. DA/SA, LEM/DAK, DOA, DA revolvers and SA autos/relvolvers are all going away because of the striker guns.
No one has a requirement for anything other than striker fired auto? Or who's going to satisfy the demands of the public? Since we all know that humans like variety in life.
<sigh>
Ok, you're right. DA/SA, LEM/DAK, DOA, DA revolvers and SA autos/relvolvers are all going away because of the striker guns.
No one has a requirement for anything other than striker fired auto? Or who's going to satisfy the demands of the public? Since we all know that humans like variety in life.
No. Just the DA/SA semi-auto like the P226 to start with. It will come down to gun companys producing only versions of the guns that have the same trigger pull on every shot. Why? Because their customer base will not want anything else. The M&P and Glock have just let the masses know that for a cheaper price there are more user friendly options available.
KentuckyWindage
02-05-11, 19:53
GLOCK 17, everyone else has spent the last 25 years playing catch up to GLOCK.
this....
Grant, where you're at, it may be different. Here, every 7-8 years or so, the State bids for new weapons for the State Patrol. Usually the best deal is picked, as in cheapest or free. Some Departments (if big enough) latch on to that state bid, and that's why you see other agencys switch to the same gun, holsters etc etc at the same time. It keeps new guns in holsters to prevent maintenance issues, and gives them brand new shiny leather.
The same goes for ammo. A lot of departments latch on to the state bid for cheaper bulk buy, if you order enough ammo. For years I was issued 124gr HydraShoks, despite better ammo available on the market (Rangers, Gold Dots), just because of the state bid. At the time, our practice/range ammo was also Federal (American Eagle). Now the issued ammo is Gold Dots (thank god) and our range ammo is now Blazer because of CCI's bid. I'm much more happy now that I get boxes of Gold Dot 124gr+P for free. :D The same concept applies for rifle ammo.
It pretty much works the same everywhere. Usually, the cheapest or free options are going to be Glock's or M&P's. As I stated though, people in the upper chain of command can and DO make poor decisions on weapon, holster and ammo choices.
C4
I have to say it's the HK P30. While the Glocks are very solid guns the HKs are a notch above in everything exept for price and aftermarket parts. The two things that are the least important to me.
The title is so vague as to be meaningless. AKA who is the hottest beach bunny.
Define requirements and compare xxxx pistol to them.
To broach some commons ideas in the thread:
-broad adoption, big company vendor, doesn't mean much about the technical merits of a weapon except assured availability of parts (unless it's a foreign company that rhymes with coke... & then good luck with customer service), and revisions as major issues become apparent. "amateurs tactics, pros logistics"
-double action/single action. It is many-fold harder to maintain high level skills with a DA/SA weapon. Striker fired, one trigger pull, is MUCH easier to train to a standard. For legacy logistics & bureaucratic mentality reasons (and some good salesmanship) the archaic DA/SA will be around for a long time.
-striker fired weapons, pistol & rifle, more easily facilitate compact ergonomic designs. Please note I didn't say platforms.. firearms are not airframes nor maritime "platforms" you can hang an assortment of weapons systems or sensors on.
H&K P30 for sure
is it worth the extra price? That's for you to decide.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-05-11, 23:28
IMO
1st
P30/p2000
2nd
G17/g19
Don't see any point beyond these.
Yes. Training issue. Most "students or officers" in my city/county shoot just enough to qualify once a year.
You're correct. 95% of LEO's are not "shooters" and couldn't care less of what type of weapon that they carry, and that includes the feds, state, local levels. For those people, striker fired weapons make a lot of sense. After all, all the agency cares about is if they can score a 70% in a static position on a PPC course twice a year. Pretty lame.
Where I work, the issued pistols are Glock 17's or 22's. You can purchase your own weapon from the approved list (Glock, SIG, Beretta, HK, S&W, XD's and 1911's in 9mm, .40 or .45)but you have to provide your own magazines, approved holster and mag holder. This system is by far better than a blanket issued pistol because everyone has their own preferences. Most people take what they are issued, but the "shooters" (guys who actually train) usually have their own equipment. The USPs are popular (particularly the .45), lots of SIG P-Series and a sprinkle here and there of the others. Two recent OIS in my area involved "shooters" with DA/SA USP 45's. 2 shots fired 2hits on BG - DRT, 3 shots fired on a moving vehicle 2 hits (third would have hit but was stopped by objects in door)- BG DRT. If you train with what you're comfortable with and prefer, the action of the weapon will not hamper your accuracy.
I've bought 3 Glocks (2-19s and 26) in the last 5 years and could not warm up to them, even after sending thousands of rounds down range with them. Despite the single trigger pull of the Glock, I was still more accurate and faster with the SIGs. I also noticed that going back and forth between the two different styles of weapons resulted in my accuracy degrading with the SIGs. I ditched the Glocks and stuck with the SIGs and my accuracy went back up. All of the threads here on M4C about carrying and training with one make/trigger action, even if they're different models/sizes, holds a lot of water.
Please note I didn't say platforms.. firearms are not airframes nor maritime "platforms" you can hang an assortment of weapons systems or sensors on.
Noted. ;)
Noted. ;)
We can both agree that we will not be using "platform" to describe firearms. Hopefully the OP finds a firearm that he is as enthusiastic about as we are with our choices. :D
We can both agree that we will not be using "platform" to describe firearms. Hopefully the OP finds a firearm that he is as enthusiastic about as we are with our choices. :D
Ah damnit! I like to use that term just to needle people :D
Ah damnit! I like to use that term just to needle people :D
Dano5326 is so skilled in the use of the English language that I figured my best option was to just surrender.:D
Please note I didn't say platforms.. firearms are not airframes nor maritime "platforms" you can hang an assortment of weapons systems or sensors on.
By "hang" do you mean clip"? :cool:
http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/clip-vs-magazine-gun-500x394.jpg
Bulldog7972
02-06-11, 09:06
Grant, where you're at, it may be different. Here, every 7-8 years or so, the State bids for new weapons for the State Patrol. Usually the best deal is picked, as in cheapest or free. Some Departments (if big enough) latch on to that state bid, and that's why you see other agencys switch to the same gun, holsters etc etc at the same time. It keeps new guns in holsters to prevent maintenance issues, and gives them brand new shiny leather.
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Why? Why do they do that? Are they shooting that many rounds each year to justify replacing all their issued weapons. Are they involved in that many shootouts that their guns have become so worn that they need replacement? What can a trooper in your state do with his brand spankin new whatever that I cannot do with my ten year old Sig? IMHO it's simply so some suit can justify his existence.
For me it’s the Glock 19/17. I have had USPs, a P30, CZs, P226s, M&Ps, and others. For what ever reason Glocks just work for me. I really thought when I bought the P30 I had found the “one“. Sadly it was not for me. That’s not to say that the P30 did not run well, it did, I just could not shoot it as well as a G19/G17. I think that I have finally learned my lesson and I am just sticking with what works.
500grains,
I just downloaded this photo onto my phone. I am sick of explaining to people (this comes up alot at the gun store I frequent) the mag vs. clip 'debate'. Now I'll just refer to this pic! Maybe someone will see the light! ;)
-Jax
By "hang" do you mean clip"? :cool:
http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/clip-vs-magazine-gun-500x394.jpg
Why? Why do they do that? Are they shooting that many rounds each year to justify replacing all their issued weapons. Are they involved in that many shootouts that their guns have become so worn that they need replacement? What can a trooper in your state do with his brand spankin new whatever that I cannot do with my ten year old Sig? IMHO it's simply so some suit can justify his existence.
I've already posted why they do it. New guns to avoid maintenence issues and brand new leather for little to no $$. They replaced USP's, not SIGs, with M&P's.
chillindrdude
02-06-11, 22:40
i like my HK P30 > USP 9mm > G17.
i could never get use to the grip angle and the shape of the G17 grip. P30 with its ambi controls and customizeable grip sits well in my hand.
John_Wayne777
02-07-11, 07:15
I mentioned the mechanical accuracy of the P30 earlier...and at the range this weekend I had a particularly stark example of that. The first thing I start out with at the range is usually a 5 shot bullseye group at 25 yards. I usually run that 3 or 4 times. Behold, from my second run:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMG_20110205_135410.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMG_20110205_135514.jpg
That is 4 shots in what essentially amounts to one hole at 25 yards. That's with the el-cheapo Tula steel-cased stuff from Wally World. The fifth shot is a called flyer. I anticipated on the shot.
ChicagoTex
02-07-11, 08:26
I mentioned the mechanical accuracy of the P30 earlier...and at the range this weekend I had a particularly stark example of that. The first thing I start out with at the range is usually a 5 shot bullseye group at 25 yards. I usually run that 3 or 4 times. Behold, from my second run:
Wow, looks like around an inch.
I gotta get me a P30.
Mr. Goodtimes
02-07-11, 13:19
P30. The P30 does everything better for me. I'm a lefty so I particularly love the ergos of the pistol.
The 1980's rule. You already have the best. Get another one. I was very impressed the first time I stripped mine that was a West German 226. Even my HKP7 series did not have braided recoil springs like the SIG226.
I think the WG/German SIG 226, 228, Italian MFG Beretta 92FS and FS Compact and HK P7 M8/13/10 series are the best and most desirable.
But it seems in this day and age, the HK USP and Glock have taken center stage for many.
If we are talking .45, I do like the classic SIG 220, this is a must, but I feel the 13rd capacity on the Glock would be irresistible. Having to decide between the two and the others, to select only one, would be a difficult choice.
crazymoose
02-10-11, 18:22
Have owned and shot quite a few of them, and always come back to the Glocks 17/17L/34 and good 9mm 1911s. Desperately want to like the plastic H&K pistols, but always find myself wondering how they could have overlooked something as important as incorporating a decent trigger.
If they weren't so damned rare, I'd submit the P7M13 as a truly excellent, "shootable" option.
This thread has some very cool thoughts floating around.
As a relatively new shooter coming into the shooting world last year, I will say that I hated DA/SA right from the get-go. I had chances to test drive various things along the way and DA/SA is just not very friendly to someone who is not a trained shooter in terms of learning curve. I think this is very important and is a huge driver for going into the more "modern" systems they are doing with striker-fired, DAO, etc. trigger designs. The old standby with the 1911 SA-only cocked and locked design is great, but honestly, for a new shooter, that weapon system has a lot of intricacies to be vigilant with the safety and other little things that may deter newer folks.
All that said, my "working" pistol that I chose for training classes and practice is a M&P9 full-size (still bone stock). However, I did end up subsequently picking up a Glock 19 (EXO) recently on a whim. Both of those pistols were on my short list shoot-off before I purchased the M&P9 late last year. Now that I've had a chance to shoot my M&P9 and a Glock 19 on a more free basis than limited to a single rental session, I find elements of both pistols that seem to work very well. It really is a very personal thing when it comes down to preference. The more I shoot both, the more I appreciate that each one brings slightly different things to the table.
Just to widen my choices as I go, I am going to acquire a Kimber Stainless II 1911 in 9mm and eventually a HK P7/PSP (mostly because I've always been amazed at the engineering of that pistol), but I doubt either of these two will ever be a "working" pistol in my stable. Both would fall more into the category of "toys" or "dang, that's nice to have!" :D
Anyhow, hope limited insight from a newb is useful. Carry on! :agree:
Lefty Gunner
02-10-11, 22:05
I have an HK P2000, Multiple Glocks in two calibers and one M&P. I have shot IDPA for the last 6 years, 5 with the Glock 34. Last season I ran an M&P 9L and finished higher than I ever had with the Glock. The ergonomics are just better on the M&P for me....
I took quite a while for the HK LEM (P2000) to settle in and work for me. I pulled shots low for a few months over pulling the trigger (Hold over from too much skeet trigger slap in my youth).
I would start with the M&P and see if it can meet your needs. The latest versions have a new larger diameter sear return spring which just might fix one of the last M&P problems. The rare but real dead trigger issue. Had one myself during a match when I did not grip the same as usual.
I do not like the G19 grip, but if not an issued duty gun just grind off the offensive finger groove divider(s) and have at it.
find DocGKR's post in terminal ballistics regarding Service Pistol...Loads and he suggests the G19 and M&P are GTG.
I agree with him that the HK parts are hard to find and that the customer service can be spotty. Also, the have failed to release all LEM versions in the US for some of the new models. Yes you can convert to what you want, but at some point you can buy two of the other guns, have both worked on by the best guys available, add parts and sights and spend no more money. HK's are not twice as good.
Many IDPA shooters are moving from the Glock to the M&P based on published National Match Statistics. Yes it is a game and so on and so forth, but they want the best thing in their holsters when they draw and shoot..... Used to be only Glocks in SSP, now more M&P's. These guys are voting with their dollars.
F-Trooper05
02-10-11, 22:35
I agree with him that the HK... customer service can be spotty.
Bull shit.
Bull shit.
I know that you're an big H&K fan, but a SME posted the same thing in this thread regarding their CS....
unless it's a foreign company that rhymes with coke... & then good luck with customer service
I don't know..alot of folks say how bad their (HK's) C.S. is, In my experience, it was'nt bad at all. I had bought a new P-2000, 9mm LEM..From the factory, it wasn't right, you could rack the slide, and somethimes it would be in LEM mode and sometimes it would'nt...I called HK, They gave me a RA# and I shipped it to them.They had it about a week, it came back the invoice said that a spring was broke,they replaced it, and apparently,they then went through the entire pistol looking for anything else wrong..and found something,they also replaced the firing pin spring, (invoice said it was out of spec) they test fired it and shipped back, like I said, they had it about a week, and it was back, I really can't fault them..
John_Wayne777
02-11-11, 07:21
It's true that H&K's customer service has been less than stellar in the not too distant past. Some of it was due to the normal ebb and flow of CS in gun companies. It tends to run in cycles as people shift positions within the company and flow in and out of different companies. This is to some extent a natural phenomenon. I've had excellent and bad experiences with several gun companies over the years.
Some of H&K's customer service issues have been part of some genius' idea of a marketing strategy.
Say that you're an exec in a hypothetical gun company and you've just invented a new gun that is a lot cheaper to manufacture than your old PM5 product. It's a lot more profitable for you, so you're eager to get the new gun out there and generate some revenue. A snag arises when you find out that units X and Y who have the PM5 already aren't interested in spending a bunch of money to buy a new gun that essentially does the same thing their old guns do.
What to do? Well, if you grew up on a steady diet of lead paint chips and Tony Robbins self-help tapes, you might come to a truly brilliant conclusion: Make support for the PM5 as painful as possible! Once units X and Y figure out that they can no longer keep the PM5 up and running they will run swiftly into the arms of the new profit generating product. What's that you say? Instead of being thankful for your benevolent wisdom they may instead develop a seething hatred for you that will burn hotter than a thousand suns?
Nonsense! This is a brilliant plan and there is no possible way for it to backfire and make your customers curse the womb that bore you. They are dying to have you attempt to force a new gun on them that primarily benefits you. They are also eager to buy magazines with a spring that goes tits up in no-time which you insist must be remedied by buying a whole new mag at $50.00 a pop. They will thank you for your wisdom and name their next child after you.
That was a fun thought experiment, wasn't it?
Anyhoo, returning to the topic of H&K...H&K USA right now is headed by a guy who understands the American market a lot better than the strange little men who live in the Black Forrest. He's done a great deal to improve the level of customer service that H&K delivers here in the states. They actually stock parts and the people answering the phone and emails are generally helpful and knowledgeable.
H&K customer service is pretty darn good right now. I've interacted with them multiple times since August of last year, always with exceptionally good results.
J_W 777 Dude that was some funny stuff!
I agree, HK CS has been helpful and quick to respond when I have dealt with them. It was not always like that in the past, but things have changed for the better.
Alot of times I think it is just people who dont have any first hand knowledge and just keep repeating what they hear like parrots. The internet can be really plagued with such silly antics. It is like popluar for people to just chime in and say stuff just to say stuff that they themselves know nothing about.
Get a P30 and be done with it. The only opinions that you will hear as downside is price. Some will say availability of spare parts. For me price did not matter and I have not had a problem obtaining parts through the few Hk parts distributors.
JR TACTICAL
02-11-11, 09:36
Having owned a few different 9mm pistols now I would say for the money a Springfield XDM is by far the finest shooting and most accurate 9mm I have owned. I an comparing this to the other 9's o have owned such as a m&p, glock19 and a browning hi power, I cannot sleek for the h&k or the Sig but for new style polymer pistols the XDM is the ticket in my humble opinion.
Having owned a few different 9mm pistols now I would say for the money a Springfield XDM is by far the finest shooting and most accurate 9mm I have owned. I an comparing this to the other 9's o have owned such as a m&p, glock19 and a browning hi power, I cannot sleek for the h&k or the Sig but for new style polymer pistols the XDM is the ticket in my humble opinion.
I had an XDM fullsize in 9mm, and it was as accurate as my Sig P226 and P30. But i could shoot it faster than those and still maintain tight groups. It was an extremely smooth shooting gun as well. After reading many accounts of XD's crapping out, i decided to sell it and go with Glock's & HK's for my polymer pistols, based on their rep for reliable function.
Having owned a few different 9mm pistols now I would say for the money a Springfield XDM is by far the finest shooting and most accurate 9mm I have owned. I an comparing this to the other 9's o have owned such as a m&p, glock19 and a browning hi power, I cannot sleek for the h&k or the Sig but for new style polymer pistols the XDM is the ticket in my humble opinion.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but there is just no way that the XDM has ANYTHING over the G19. :no:
This is coming from a Glock hater by the way. ;)
C4
My XDM was more accurate than my Glock.. No jive. :cool:
My XDM was more accurate than my Glock.. No jive. :cool:
My shooting partner has a Gen3 G19 that shoots high (1.5 inches to be exact). Do I think that all G19's shoot high? No.
There are most likely a million more G17/G19's out there compared to the XDM. Is it possible that you can have an XDM shoot better than a Glock? Yep. Does it mean that it is a better gun? :no:
C4
My XDM was more accurate than my Glock.. No jive. :cool:
Accuracy means nothing if the gun won't fire when you need it to.
Glocks aren't known for accuracy (not that it's bad), they're known for reliability. If you want Glock-like reliability in addition to accuracy, get an HK (but be prepared to pay double over a Glock). If you simply want accuracy without any care about reliability, then just about any SA or Ruger should suffice.
I guess you guys missed the post where is said i replaced the XDM, with a Glock. All i said was the XDM was more accurate. :confused:
All i said was the XDM was more accurate. :confused:
I could point out that X gun is more ergonomic or has a higher mag capacity. The problem is that in and of themselves, those traits are superficial.
Accuracy is important, but most data supports the fact that practical defensive pistol shooting is done at relatively close ranges and that even a 2.5" snub-nose would be more than accurate enough. All things being equal, more accuracy is better, but it's worthless if the gun fails as a reliable defensive weapon.
Remember, this is a defensive-shooting oriented site. Praising the XDM for being accurate despite its other flaws is like praising the Sig 250 for being modular; it's simply a last-ditch effort to find something positive about the gun.
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but it's worthless if the gun fails as a reliable defensive weapon.
Do you guys really feel like, the one time you need a gun in a defensive situation,the XD is going to fall apart at that very moment?It doesn't quite have the track record as the Glock, but I do believe it to be a well built gun, and perfectly capable of defending one's life with. Go over to Glocktalk and you will see multiple failure's with Glock's. I just don't get all the hatred for the XD series.
Do you guys really feel like, the one time you need a gun in a defensive situation,the XD is going to fall apart at that very moment?It doesn't quite have the track record as the Glock, but I do believe it to be a well built gun, and perfectly capable of defending one's life with. Go over to Glocktalk and you will see multiple failure's with Glock's. I just don't get all the hatred for the XD series.
For me the XD's ergos were all wrong. The slide lock sits right in position under my strong hand thumb, so I'd ride it home all the time. Unacceptable.
The higher bore axis bothers some people too, but that depends on how experienced the shooter is, probably.
Frankly, I kinda think the XD and XDM pistols are just fugly, but that's neither here nor there. :dance3:
If anything, small details like this demonstrate how important it is to shoot a pistol personally before choosing it.
JR TACTICAL
02-11-11, 12:42
The reason for that is the back strap on the gen 3 glocks...there is a hump at the bottom of the backstrap and depending on the grip style you will shoot high I had the same problem with my 19 till I shaved off the hump now its right on. Tell you buddy to do a grip reduction and it will fix the problem.
As for the quality I love the glock but the XDM shoots better
My shooting partner has a Gen3 G19 that shoots high (1.5 inches to be exact). Do I think that all G19's shoot high? No.
There are most likely a million more G17/G19's out there compared to the XDM. Is it possible that you can have an XDM shoot better than a Glock? Yep. Does it mean that it is a better gun? :no:
C4
For me the XD's ergos were all wrong. The slide lock sits right in position under my strong hand thumb, so I'd ride it home all the time. Unacceptable.
The higher bore axis bothers some people too, but that depends on how experienced the shooter is, probably.
Frankly, I kinda think the XD and XDM pistols are just fugly, but that's neither here nor there. :dance3:
If anything, small details like this demonstrate how important it is to shoot a pistol personally before choosing it.
I agree that the ergos' may be off for some who try them. That is true with all handguns in general. The high bore axis is always brought up when talking XD's, but waived and hardly mentioned when speaking of HK's or Sigs. It sounds as though the XD isn't for you, and I agree that trying before buying is very smart. I just don't understand why XD's catch all the bashing and others get dismissed when things go wrong with them. I've read numerous time's where a HK spring was out of spec, M&P's have had too many issues to state in one sentence (yes I've had 3 of them), and Glock's have been out over 25 yrs and still have bad batch's and so forth. I'm sorry but the only XD problem I know of that is common is a broke pin in the slide. 10$ later and a stronger pin, it's a non issue. I'm not saying the XD is the best gun, but from looking at the forums alot of people are quite happy with them, including some with 10,000 + rounds thru them.
Do you guys really feel like, the one time you need a gun in a defensive situation,the XD is going to fall apart at that very moment?It doesn't quite have the track record as the Glock, but I do believe it to be a well built gun, and perfectly capable of defending one's life with. Go over to Glocktalk and you will see multiple failure's with Glock's. I just don't get all the hatred for the XD series.
In all honesty, it has nowhere near the track level of a Glock - saying "doesn't quite" is rather deceiving.
That aside, do I believe that the gun will simply not perform when you need it? The stats and reports prove it has a much higher chance of malfunctioning. Do you or I know when a specific malfunction will happen? Nope, but I can guarantee you that, in general, XDM's malfunction much, much, much more than Glocks. There are various reports here, on other forums, and even on XD forums of the various ejection/extraction issues, as well as sub-par materials used.
Again, do either of us know when a malfunction will happen? Nope. But if a Glock 19 malfunctions once in every 5,000 rounds, while an XDM malfunctions once in 500 rounds, you're ten times likelier to have your weapon fail on you if you use your weapon defensively. And that isn't touching on the fact that no major agency or police department will adopt them. Seeing as Glocks can be the same price (or cheaper, in some cases) than XDMs, why would you want one? Mathematic probability, cost, and logic say there's no reason to get an XDM over a Glock as a defensive shooter.
Of course you'll find a higher failure rate with Glocks on a Glock forum, just like you'll find a higher failure of HK's on an HK forum. The number of failures doesn't mean nearly as much as the percentage of the failures compared to all guns of that make in general. That fact in and of itself is further proof that a report of a malfunctioning Glock isn't that significant, as for every one Glock report, you can find hundreds more that aren't. Ten reports on a forum of a Glock malfunctioning is actually better than five reports of an XD malfunctioning. Most people either simply don't know or ignore these facts.
I don't "hate" the XDM. What I (and many other here) "hate" is people trying to make cases for a gun that costs as much or as more as a Glock or M&P, yet malfunctions much, much more, all while claiming "it's as good as." It isn't. It's a niche gun trying to fill a do-it-all wonder-gun role. "A jack of all trades and a master of none," to quote the common phrase.
And for the record, I hate Glocks.
Do you guys really feel like, the one time you need a gun in a defensive situation,the XD is going to fall apart at that very moment?It doesn't quite have the track record as the Glock, but I do believe it to be a well built gun, and perfectly capable of defending one's life with. Go over to Glocktalk and you will see multiple failure's with Glock's. I just don't get all the hatred for the XD series.
Yes and no. I am a high round count shooter so I want as reliable gun as possible for all the training classes I attend. Same goes with the AR. There is a reason why I don't shoot/own lower quality AR's.
Is the gun going to fail the moment I need to fire a round out of it to save my life? Doubt it. Are the odds more in favor of this happening with an XD over a Glock GEN 3 9mm? Yes.
All HG's fail. ALL OF THEM. Glock has more guns out there than Springfield can even fathom. So are you going to see more broken Glock's than XD's? Of course.
With all the said, I would take and XD/XDM over a good many other pistols, but their ranking in the polymer world is 100% behind Glock, S&W, HK and maybe even Walther.
C4
Alot of times I think it is just people who dont have any first hand knowledge and just keep repeating what they hear like parrots. The internet can be really plagued with such silly antics. It is like popluar for people to just chime in and say stuff just to say stuff that they themselves know nothing about.
Wow... did you just figure that out? There are haters with their own agenda in every gun forum. 99% of their info is 2nd or 3rd hand info at best, but they act like they're "in the know."
Just look for the guys that bash SIG in every thread that mentions the company. I guarantee it that 99% have NO experience with newer SIGs. They're obvious trolls that are allowed to keep on trolling for some odd reason. Well, myself and another member hopefully ran off off one of the big trolls, at least I haven't seen him back since we proved the crap that spews out of his his mouth, is well, crap.
The reason for that is the back strap on the gen 3 glocks...there is a hump at the bottom of the backstrap and depending on the grip style you will shoot high I had the same problem with my 19 till I shaved off the hump now its right on. Tell you buddy to do a grip reduction and it will fix the problem.
As for the quality I love the glock but the XDM shoots better
Myself and my shooting partner have owned and or do own about 10 different Glock's. This is the first one that has shot high.
Ergo's are personal thing. I personally do not care for the grip angle and feel of a Glock. Does this mean that it isn't one of the most reliable pistols made? No.
For me, the definition of "shoots better" means that it is more reliable and more accurate. While it is possible that an XD is more accurate than a Glock, we would have to take 100 guns of each brand, shoot the same ammo out of them to make any kind of real decision on accuracy.
For me, reliability is KING. Accuracy is second. So the gun that is more reliable is going to be the best choice. Hands down, that is the GEN 3 G19.
C4
The reason for that is the back strap on the gen 3 glocks...there is a hump at the bottom of the backstrap and depending on the grip style you will shoot high I had the same problem with my 19 till I shaved off the hump now its right on. Tell you buddy to do a grip reduction and it will fix the problem.
Grant is not talking about the grip of the gun. He's talking about the mechanics of the gun - it shoots 1.5" high. I had one of those G19's that shot way left. I had to move the rear sight on it all the way to the right for it to shoot straight. If I moved it anymore, it would have been sticking off of the slide.
Wow... did you just figure that out? There are haters with their own agenda in every gun forum. 99% of their info is 2nd or 3rd hand info at best, but they act like they're "in the know."
Just look for the guys that bash SIG in every thread that mentions the company. I guarantee it that 99% have NO experience with newer SIGs. They're obvious trolls that are allowed to keep on trolling for some odd reason. Well, myself and another member hopefully ran off off one of the big trolls, at least I haven't seen him back since we proved the crap that spews out of his his mouth, is well, crap.
Interesting what you say about SIG. They have some SERIOUS QC issues. With that said, SIG has two different lines. SIG Commercial and SIG LE. The LE guns (in some instances) get different parts and see much better QC.
So if you are LE/Military, you most likely have seen reliable SIG's and or owned a few. The rest of the populace has not.
We can trade so info offline if you like.
C4
Grant is not talking about the grip of the gun. He's talking about the mechanics of the gun - it shoots 1.5" high. I had one of those G19's that shot way left. I had to move the rear sight on it all the way to the right for it to shoot straight. If I moved it anymore, it would have been sticking off of the slide.
Right. My buddy just has a bad barrel. It happens.
C4
Interesting what you say about SIG. They have some SERIOUS QC issues. With that said, SIG has two different lines. SIG Commercial and SIG LE. The LE guns (in some instances) get different parts and see much better QC.
So if you are LE/Military, you most likely have seen reliable SIG's and or owned a few. The rest of the populace has not.
We can trade so info offline if you like.
C4
I think people equate QC issues of certain SIG lines, such as the P250, with the Classic series SIGs. Very rarely do you see a "My Classic P-Series is a POS" post. Some people talk like you have a 50/50 chance of getting a good SIG, which is not the case. I do agree that the P250 is a failure of epic proportions and is a line of products that SIG needs to stop trying to shove down peoples throats. Thankfully, I think that they are realizing that and are starting to back away from them, and are keeping the "Pro" line which is a great product. I have no experience with the new E2 pistols, but from what I have read on the net, the new system is still hit or miss.
I believe that every big gun company has commercial and .mil/LE divisions. I'm sure that the contract (LE/.mil) guns do get a little more TLC at every company, or at least they try to give them more. I have both LE SIGs and commercial, and I can't tell the difference between the two. Some of the newer ones do have a couple of MIM parts now, but what gun doesn't? The big difference that I see in my SIGs is the German vs American made. My preference is for the US made SIGs as the stainless steel slides are much more durable, require less maintenance, they have better triggers and have better finishes. My two most recent purchases were a German P228R and a very recently made P239 SAS. The P239 is a better built pistol imo.
Now I'm not saying that SIGs Classic line is perfect, as every company puts out lemons, and quality dips when there's a big demand. I noticed a lot more bitching about SIG after they won the DHS contracts in 2004, and noticed some during the '08 Obama rush. When a company has to meet deadlines and demand, that's when QC takes a hit.
I just don't understand why Glock and S&W get a free pass for QC issues but SIG is getting dragged under the bus for years. Look at the Gen4 Glocks (and Gen3 for that matter) and their problems. Look at the inconsistent QC with the M&P's, that I have seen first hand and recieved second hand from good friends that are issued them. I have also read about them here on the forums. A SME on this board recently posted that he's seen hundreds of 416's go back to H&K for QC issues (say it ain't so!).
It's also not fair to compare product line x to product line y. I don't call the M&P a crap pistol just because the Sigma is a POS. They're completely different! Nor do I spam every Glock & M&P thread even though I have seen major failures with them because I also understand that they are also mechanical devices and shit breaks. I just get tired of hearing the same drivel from the same crowd. Maybe I just need to turn off my laptop. :D
I think people equate QC issues of certain SIG lines, such as the P250, with the Classic series SIGs. Very rarely do you see a "My Classic P-Series is a POS" post. Some people talk like you have a 50/50 chance of getting a good SIG, which is not the case. I do agree that the P250 is a failure of epic proportions and is a line of products that SIG needs to stop trying to shove down peoples throats. Thankfully, I think that they are realizing that and are starting to back away from them, and are keeping the "Pro" line which is a great product. I have no experience with the new E2 pistols, but from what I have read on the net, the new system is still hit or miss.
Could be, but I am not. I am talking about mainstream SIG's like the 226.
I believe that every big gun company has commercial and .mil/LE divisions. I'm sure that the contract (LE/.mil) guns do get a little more TLC at every company, or at least they try to give them more. I have both LE SIGs and commercial, and I can't tell the difference between the two. Some of the newer ones do have a couple of MIM parts now, but what gun doesn't? The big difference that I see in my SIGs is the German vs American made. My preference is for the US made SIGs as the stainless steel slides are much more durable, require less maintenance, they have better triggers and have better finishes. My two most recent purchases were a German P228R and a very recently made P239 SAS. The P239 is a better built pistol imo.
Most gun companies do have two divisions. SIG does QC on their LE/Mil guns, but not on their commercial ones. As noted, there are also different parts used.
Now I'm not saying that SIGs Classic line is perfect, as every company puts out lemons, and quality dips when there's a big demand. I noticed a lot more bitching about SIG after they won the DHS contracts in 2004, and noticed some during the '08 Obama rush. When a company has to meet deadlines and demand, that's when QC takes a hit.
Agree. We are talking about wide spread issues with the commercial versions of their guns.
I just don't understand why Glock and S&W get a free pass for QC issues but SIG is getting dragged under the bus for years. Look at the Gen4 Glocks (and Gen3 for that matter) and their problems. Look at the inconsistent QC with the M&P's, that I have seen first hand and recieved second hand from good friends that are issued them. I have also read about them here on the forums. A SME on this board recently posted that he's seen hundreds of 416's go back to H&K for QC issues (say it ain't so!).
They do not (at least from me). The GEN 4 9mm Glock's are having tons of issues and S&W is dealing with their dead trigger issues and extractor issues on the 9mm side.
The difference though is the BOTH Glock and S&W do QC on ALL their guns and use the same parts across all the lines. SIG does not.
It's also not fair to compare product line x to product line y. I don't call the M&P a crap pistol just because the Sigma is a POS. They're completely different! Nor do I spam every Glock & M&P thread even though I have seen major failures with them because I also understand that they are also mechanical devices and shit breaks. I just get tired of hearing the same drivel from the same crowd. Maybe I just need to turn off my laptop. :D
As a SIG 225 owner, I would not call SIG crap because of the 250. Nor do I judge the G17/G19 a failure because of all the issues the G22 has had.
I am sure you read the ATF report on the SIG right?
C4
Could be, but I am not. I am talking about mainstream SIG's like the 226.
Like I said, I personally haven't seen the problems, and I seldom read about a classic SIG being junk. Every once in a while I cruise on over to SIGForum to see what's going on. Most of those guys are very critical and are SIG "purists." Rarely do I see a post about a problem with the P-Series. Most seem to be very happy with their purchase. A lot seem to favor the German guns, despite the newer stainless slide models being better "hard use" guns though.
Most gun companies do have two divisions. SIG does QC on their LE/Mil guns, but not on their commercial ones. As noted, there are also different parts used.
I have both commercial and LE guns. Before I even fire a round, I strip them down to nothing (bare frame) and clean/lube all of the parts. I can't see the dfference in them, except for the few MIM parts that are in the newer ones. Maybe I just don't know what I'm looking at.:confused:
Agree. We are talking about wide spread issues with the commercial versions of their guns.
See above.
They do not (at least from me). The GEN 4 9mm Glock's are having tons of issues and S&W is dealing with their dead trigger issues and extractor issues on the 9mm side.
The difference though is the BOTH Glock and S&W do QC on ALL their guns and use the same parts across all the lines. SIG does not.
Well, I don't work for SIG so I have no idea on what they do and don't do. I just rely on my experience with my own weapons and from what I have seen at work/training.
If Glock and S&W does QC on all of their guns, then they really need to step it up, from my experience at least.
As a SIG 225 owner, I would not call SIG crap because of the 250. Nor do I judge the G17/G19 a failure because of all the issues the G22 has had.
I am sure you read the ATF report on the SIG right?
I wasn't pointing my finger at you Grant, but there are several people who do make blanket statements. It's the ways of the errornet!
If you're talking about the recent ATF trial with the Glock, M&P and P250, then yes I have. The ATF made the right choice, IMO. If I recall correctly, they did ask for a polymer gun, and if SIG would have submitted a SIG Pro or were allowed to enter a Classic Series, the results may have been different. What SIG said after the P250 failed (SHOCKING!) is pathetic. It sounded like a butthurt CEO was disappointed that his little cash cow POS pistol couldn't cut the mustard.
I could point out that X gun is more ergonomic or has a higher mag capacity. The problem is that in and of themselves, those traits are superficial.
Accuracy is important, but most data supports the fact that practical defensive pistol shooting is done at relatively close ranges and that even a 2.5" snub-nose would be more than accurate enough. All things being equal, more accuracy is better, but it's worthless if the gun fails as a reliable defensive weapon.
Remember, this is a defensive-shooting oriented site. Praising the XDM for being accurate despite its other flaws is like praising the Sig 250 for being modular; it's simply a last-ditch effort to find something positive about the gun.
Im not praising the XDM. Just mentioning that it was accurate. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
Im not praising the XDM. Just mentioning that it was accurate. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
Oh no :stop: You better watch saying positive things about the XDm. It seems to offend some around here.:D
I had an XDM fullsize in 9mm, and it was as accurate as my Sig P226 and P30. But i could shoot it faster than those and still maintain tight groups. It was an extremely smooth shooting gun as well. After reading many accounts of XD's crapping out, i decided to sell it and go with Glock's & HK's for my polymer pistols, based on their rep for reliable function.
This is what bugs me about the internet. People find guns that shoot great for them, fast, accurate, and don't have any issues with them. Then get on the net, find somebody has issues with theirs, and sells a gun that works great for them. I've been guilty of it myself. I've learned that you will always find someone that thinks you shoot a sub par gun.Guns guys are no different than the car guys. I say shoot what you like and have fun. Most modern semi autos are reliable enough for civilian use. Where a civilian would use their gun there will most likely be innocent bystanders. IMHO this makes accuracy, comfort with gun, etc just as important as reliability.Otherwise you could be more of a liability.
You could always learn to shoot DA better and keep the 226.
9 Micky Mouse
02-12-11, 10:04
I have both the G17,19 but I was really fond of the Browning HP
Beat Trash
02-12-11, 12:28
This is what bugs me about the internet. People find guns that shoot great for them, fast, accurate, and don't have any issues with them. Then get on the net, find somebody has issues with theirs, and sells a gun that works great for them. I've been guilty of it myself. I've learned that you will always find someone that thinks you shoot a sub par gun.Guns guys are no different than the car guys. I say shoot what you like and have fun. Most modern semi autos are reliable enough for civilian use. Where a civilian would use their gun there will most likely be innocent bystanders. IMHO this makes accuracy, comfort with gun, etc just as important as reliability.Otherwise you could be more of a liability.
The internet can be avery dangerous place, I agree.
Any manufacture can produce a gun that might not be 100%. This is why a prudent person will test their equipment first, prior to counting on it to possibly save their life.
Anyone with a computer can post information on the internet. It can be difficult at times to judge the validity and accuracy of that information.
Just because a gun is issued or used by a particular agency or Spec Op's unit doesn't mean it's the best choice for you. The mission drives the gear selection. The SEAL's as an example use the Sig 226. That doesn't automatically mean the 226 is the best 9mm. It only means the 226 is a tool sometimes used by members of the SEAL's, and it meets their needs. I would offer that your average SEAL member could be effective with a number of different 9mm designs, given the appropriate time for transition training. The SEAL's 226's are merely tools being used by skilled individuals.
What a person can learn from looking at large agencies and organizations is patterns of problems that develop.
An example is the 3rd gen S&W autos. Many like them. My agency had about 1,100 5906's in the field for about 10 years. We then went to 5946's for about 8 years. Individually, they were ok. But after about 25K rounds on the guns, patterns started showing up. Did the problem exist on every gun? Nope. And if I had one of the guns that didn't have a problem, then I could've be one of those on the internet arguing how great the design was. But our last year with the 5946's saw around $80K worth of parts used to keep guns in the field.
With our 5th year of M&P 9mm's underway, we have seen parts break. Similar to the same parts an agency would see with 9mm Glocks. We have not seen a pattern that one would expect to see if the only source of information were posted on the internet.
For a defensive firearm, I look for reliability, durability, shoot-ability (ergonomics), accuracy, and customer support by the manufacture.
When looking for a new gun, do some research, but keep an open mind. Look for trends and patterns that are actually occurring. This can be difficult at times to separate facts from internet gossip.
I'm a pessimists by nature. Because of that, I would not look for a different standard of reliability for a civilian defensive gun than I would expect from a gun used by a LEO. I've seen first hand the abuse LEO's can give to equipment, especially ones who are not "gun people". While a civilian gun owner would be more likely to care for their gun, "Murphay's Law" can be a bitch. Even in you only have to use your defensive gun one time in your life, that would be a bad time for something to break.
In the end, I feel the "best" currently produced full sized 9mm's are the M&P, the Glock 17/19, and the HK P30. To narrow it down farther would be a matter of individual needs and preferences.
Thank God we still have the ability to choose.
The internet can be avery dangerous place, I agree.
Any manufacture can produce a gun that might not be 100%. This is why a prudent person will test their equipment first, prior to counting on it to possibly save their life.
Anyone with a computer can post information on the internet. It can be difficult at times to judge the validity and accuracy of that information.
I agree 100%
Just because a gun is issued or used by a particular agency or Spec Op's unit doesn't mean it's the best choice for you. The mission drives the gear selection. The SEAL's as an example use the Sig 226. That doesn't automatically mean the 226 is the best 9mm. It only means the 226 is a tool sometimes used by members of the SEAL's, and it meets their needs. I would offer that your average SEAL member could be effective with a number of different 9mm designs, given the appropriate time for transition training. The SEAL's 226's are merely tools being used by skilled individuals.
As you said, it may not be the best choice for you, and it may not be the "best" (how does someone determine that anyway?) but it does speak volumes about that weapon. For the 226 to be the issued pistol with an organization such as NSW for over 20 years, and they still continue to buy them and the smaller varients, is impressive. Many other top tier SOF (SAS/SBS, JTF-2 etc) continue to use and select the P226 for their issued pistol as well. The British Military just selected it for their service pistol too.
I personally put a lot more weight in what a .mil unit is using vs some LE agency. Special Operations units shoot a LOT more than any LE agency could even dream about. They also have a LOT bigger budgets for T/E of weapons. Both of which means more vetting of said weapon. LE agencies typically put their budgets first and everything else follows. Recently a Tier 1 unit selected the HK45c to fill a mission need, and the rumored round count that they put those pistols through is impressive. There is no way any LE agency would have conducted the same T/E process.
You said... "I would offer that your average SEAL member could be effective with a number of different 9mm designs". Of course they could, and so could 99% of the members of this forum. You don't need to be able to shoot a hair of a nats ass to be "effective." Humans have been killing each other since the beginning of man without the use of the lastest and greatest uber pistol/weapon, or knowing the latest HSLD TTP's.
What a person can learn from looking at large agencies and organizations is patterns of problems that develop.
Exactly, but you still have to weigh the .mil vs le, imo. Your agency shoots a lot compared to most if your Officers are putting 25k rounds through their duty pistol in 8 years. The majority shoot maybe 500 rounds a year through their pistols during quals/in-service training.
Another good way to get info is to listen to what the SME's on this forum and on others have to say. Usually, they are not biased and tell it like it is.
I personally like reading what Frogman over at TF has to say. He's a highly decorated combat veteran SEAL. He's a big 1911 fan, but his info/experience on SIGs is unequaled, and he's been in NSW since they were adopted. Here are a few quotes from him about the SIG...
"There is only one Team that has railed SIGs as of now. Everyone else has the same as before. I have not noticed, nor has anyone else I know noticed a decrease in reliability since 2005. In fact, we have also been using P239's as well as some P228's. They are all reliable. I recently met with some of our foreign SOF allies and their SIGs are running tip top, as well."
"News to me. I have seen no issues with either GI or personally purchased SIGs."
"The heavier stainless slide has a few features which are somewhat better than the older model.
The extractor is better, in my opinion, as it does not require the inner and outer roll pins in the breechblock to be replaced every 5,000 rounds. There simply are no pins to change. SEALs burn through A LOT of 9mm. The SIGs can handle it, but it made changing the roll pins a common occurance.
The stainless slide works a little better with Simunitions kits.
The beefier stainless slide makes shooting 9mm 147 gr. bullets feel like you're shooting a Ruger Mk II. Regular 115 gr. 9mm is toned down, also.
There is better corrosion resistance with the newer slide.
Of side interest- I much prefer the older plastic grips to the new pebble textured ones."
"Sure thing, as an aside no firearm has a longer Team life than the SIGs. Everything else is very temporary. SIGs just don't burn out like the other weapons systems. Also, after thousands of dry fires those triggers become very slick."
"The point is kind of moot, though. Many people have asked on this forum why the Teams use the SIG over this gun or that gun. There is one simple reason, and hopefully the answer will put this question to rest for a while. Here it is.
THE SIG IS RELIABLE, ACCURATE AND PLAIN WORKS. IT IS PROVEN AND TRUSTED AND DOES NOT NEED TO BE REPLACED.
I think many of you are under the impression that SEALs consider replacing their SIGs every time a new handgun is made. Not true. No one really cares about finding a "new" gun in the Teams. The SIG is filling its role in the Team exceedingly well, so there's no need to try to replace it. SEALs are not apt to replace a proven piece of equipment with every single "commercial improvement" or re-design of a particular item.
If the SIG isn't your favorite gun, oh well. It is the favorite handgun of the Teams. Occasionally I get the impression there are those out there trying desperately to make their favorite pistol OUR favorite. From this end, no one's biting. The SIGs stay.
We like them. They work."
Thank God we still have the ability to choose.
AMEN! ;)
And as predicted, this thread has turned into a pathetic "mine's as good as" debacle. Absolutely pathetic.
ChicagoTex
02-12-11, 20:53
And as predicted, this thread has turned into a pathetic "mine's as good as" debacle. Absolutely pathetic.
In fairness, I was pretty butthurt when I discovered the first handgun I had bought with my hard-earned money was a piece of shit (XD40). But I got over it and traded it in towards an actually good gun (at the time, a Kahr P40 that ran 100% for me.)
And as predicted, this thread has turned into a pathetic "mine's as good as" debacle. Absolutely pathetic.
Are you refering to my posts?
EzGoingKev
02-12-11, 21:36
I haven't read this entire thread so I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but one thing I really like about Glocks is how easy they are to work on.
They not only kept the parts count down but I can strip the entire pistol down using the Glock push tool and small flat tip screw driver.
I watched one of Apex's videos and having to use a punch and hammer really turned me off.
I watched one of Apex's videos and having to use a punch and hammer really turned me off.
:stop:
C4
Claudius43
02-12-11, 22:10
I am far from an expert. I am not law enforcement or military. However I do own a P226 and a P225 that is my concealed carry. I have put many many rounds through both of them with various kinds of ammunition over the years. I would bet thousands and thousands through both. (I have had the guns for ten years.) I am also embarrased to say that I am not always the best at cleaning the weapons regularly. However, despite my failings, I have never ever had one of them fail to go bang. Not once. Am I an expert - no way, no how. But the things do go bang and the bullets do go where I want them to go. SA/DA took a little bit of getting used to - but for me - no big deal. I guess, what I am trying to say is that for me - I trust what I carry. For me, as a general citizen / sheep, I see no reason to change.
EzGoingKev
02-12-11, 22:29
:stop:
C4
I am not sure what you are trying to say here but here is a link to their video -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjIGPqh083E&feature=related
Next time please type out a response like a grown up.
TacticalTaco
02-12-11, 23:03
West german p226
I am not sure what you are trying to say here but here is a link to their video -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjIGPqh083E&feature=related
Next time please type out a response like a grown up.
If you think that driving out ONE roll pin is too much, you should sell all your guns and stop posting on the errornet.
How's that for a "grown up" response?
C4
DiabhailGadhar
02-13-11, 16:00
HK MP5k-PDW there really is no substitute, lightweight, reliable, accurate, easily concealable, can level a hole room full of purse snatchers and B&E perps with one trigger pull....:p. Sorry I had to before the pissing contests went nuts..cheers.
EzGoingKev
02-13-11, 18:49
If you think that driving out ONE roll pin is too much, you should sell all your guns and stop posting on the errornet.
How's that for a "grown up" response?
C4
At least I can understand it instead of looking at something my 16 year old niece would send me in a text message.
As for the roll pins, the M&P has more than one and I like that I can just push the pins out of the Glock with the tool, a toothpick, a coat hanger, etc.
From my own experience the Glocks keep it simple stupid makes it one of (if not the) easiest to service firearms out there.
At least I can understand it instead of looking at something my 16 year old niece would send me in a text message.
As for the roll pins, the M&P has more than one and I like that I can just push the pins out of the Glock with the tool, a toothpick, a coat hanger, etc.
From my own experience the Glocks keep it simple stupid makes it one of (if not the) easiest to service firearms out there.
Yes, there are two roll pins in the M&P. Only one really needs to EVER come out though. I am also willing to bet that I could get the M&P apart faster than you can a Glock.
Remember also, that you might take the M&P apart ONE TIME to install a part. After that, there really is little to no need to punch out a roll pin. So to write a gun off because it is slightly harder to disassemble is foolish.
C4
It's fashionable now days to pick on the 1911 for reliability but every 1911 I have ever owned except one was more reliable than my M&P's. :confused:
Thus it's easy for me to pick the Glock 17 for the best designed 9mm full size handgun. :D
TacticalTaco
02-13-11, 21:00
It's fashionable now days to pick on the 1911 for reliability but every 1911 I have ever owned except one was more reliable than my M&P's. :confused:
Thus it's easy for me to pick the Glock 17 for the best designed 9mm full size handgun. :D
people who hate on the 1911 hate because they don't have one :D
It's fashionable now days to pick on the 1911 for reliability but every 1911 I have ever owned except one was more reliable than my M&P's. :confused:
No you didn't! :eek:
;)
yhmspecter
02-13-11, 23:02
I would say the M&P9 or the HK p30
crazymoose
02-14-11, 02:36
I am also willing to bet that I could get the M&P apart faster than you can a Glock.
Does that include getting the FP safety plunger out of the slide?
Honestly, the roll pins don't bother me, and the FP plunger setup is certainly not a deal-breaker, but having to remove the rear sight to access this part was a moronic design decision. I know Smith wasn't the first company to take this route, but if their aim is to usurp the Glock in all areas, easy detail stripping is an area that could certainly use improvement. Especially with the popularity of aftermarket trigger parts, being able to swap out the plunger without a vise or tool and the need to re-zero would be nice.
Army Chief
02-14-11, 05:32
Sorry I had to before the pissing contests went nuts.
No, you didn't. We don't do "pissing contests" around here, and posts of this nature add nothing of substance to the boards. Granted, it isn't my purpose to blow your face off at all, but I do want to make sure that you get off on the right foot.
AC
It's fashionable now days to pick on the 1911 for reliability but every 1911 I have ever owned except one was more reliable than my M&P's. :confused:
Thus it's easy for me to pick the Glock 17 for the best designed 9mm full size handgun. :D
That's because you bought 1911's that STARTED at $2k. ;)
These types of 1911's (yes I have two that are over $2k myself) tend to run VERY WELL.
Most people however buy cheap 1911's (that need work) and do not run well.
C4
Does that include getting the FP safety plunger out of the slide?
Honestly, the roll pins don't bother me, and the FP plunger setup is certainly not a deal-breaker, but having to remove the rear sight to access this part was a moronic design decision. I know Smith wasn't the first company to take this route, but if their aim is to usurp the Glock in all areas, easy detail stripping is an area that could certainly use improvement. Especially with the popularity of aftermarket trigger parts, being able to swap out the plunger without a vise or tool and the need to re-zero would be nice.
Why would you need to get at the striker block for?
Keep in mind that we are talking about general maintenance and field stripping (not changing out every part in the gun).
If you DID want to change out the internals of the M&P, you would do it ONE TIME.
C4
That's because you bought 1911's that STARTED at $2k. ;)
These types of 1911's (yes I have two that are over $2k myself) tend to run VERY WELL.
Most people however buy cheap 1911's (that need work) and do not run well.
C4
Not always the case. ;)
I know this is an example of one but my old $650 25th Anniversary Kimber series one was world’s more reliable than my M&P 9mm. It got nothing but recoil spring changes as far as maintenance goes.
That's why my M&P's are long gone. :D
Not always the case. ;)
I know this is an example of one but my old $650 25th Anniversary Kimber series one was world’s more reliable than my M&P 9mm. It got nothing but recoil spring changes as far as maintenance goes.
That's why my M&P's are long gone. :D
I've had a similar experience with my Springfield 1911 (in 9mm, no less). Again, statistically insignificant sample size of one, but I have just over 15,200 rounds on it without a failure. I bought it used, so I don't know the actual round count. Only parts I've replaced so far have been the recoil spring and the firing pin stop after I noticed the fracture they tend to get at the non-radiused corner. Wish I could fine more as reliable at the price I paid for it.
It's fashionable now days to pick on the 1911 for reliability but every 1911 I have ever owned except one was more reliable than my M&P's. :confused:
Thus it's easy for me to pick the Glock 17 for the best designed 9mm full size handgun. :D
I just sent my Springfield Pro back to the custom shop for peening of the slide release notch after 1700rds. I am now carrying my M&P9. Just saying.:D
Not always the case. ;)
I know this is an example of one but my old $650 25th Anniversary Kimber series one was world’s more reliable than my M&P 9mm. It got nothing but recoil spring changes as far as maintenance goes.
That's why my M&P's are long gone. :D
Yes, the SERIES 1 Kimbers were fantastic.
I actually have high hopes for SOME of the S&W 1911's that are under $1k.
The strikers broke on your M&P's as they were not intending folks to dry fire without snap caps. Luckily this is no longer an issue and people can dry fire their M&P's till the cows come home.
C4
I just sent my Spingfield Pro back to the custom shop for peening of the slide release notch after 1700rds. I am now carrying my M&P9. Just saying.:D
The Pro's are generally very good guns, unless you send it to a gunsmith to screw up (right Paul). :D
C4
The Pro's are generally very good guns, unless you send it to a gunsmith to screw up (right Paul). :D
C4
I just have bad luck. Jason at Springfield custom has been great to deal with. It should be back in a few weeks.
I just have bad luck. Jason at Springfield custom has been great to deal with. It should be back in a few weeks.
We all get bad luck from time to time. I remember when Dinger dropped his NEW WC CQB in the parking lot (hadn't even fired it yet). :eek:
C4
We all get bad luck from time to time. I remember when Dinger dropped his NEW WC CQB in the parking lot (hadn't even fired it yet). :eek:
C4
That makes my stomach turn just thinking about it.
FChen17213
02-14-11, 12:37
Definitely Jennings Bryco 9mm. The Hi Point or Lorcin might be a close 2nd place.
Definitely Jennings Bryco 9mm. The Hi Point or Lorcin might be a close 2nd place.
Those are too Tier 1 for this forum
:jester:
We all get bad luck from time to time. I remember when Dinger dropped his NEW WC CQB in the parking lot (hadn't even fired it yet). :eek:
C4
I seem to remember someone else dropping something somewhere.:)
I seem to remember someone else dropping something somewhere.:)
Don't think I have ever dropped anything (out of my hand). :D
C4
crazymoose
02-14-11, 16:06
Why would you need to get at the striker block for?
Keep in mind that we are talking about general maintenance and field stripping (not changing out every part in the gun).
If you DID want to change out the internals of the M&P, you would do it ONE TIME.
C4
I'll be the first to point out that it's probably just OCD, but every few thousand rounds, I like to thoroughly clean the slide internals of my Glocks and 1911s.
I'll be the first to point out that it's probably just OCD, but every few thousand rounds, I like to thoroughly clean the slide internals of my Glocks and 1911s.
That is fine/understan. I stick mine in an ultra sonic cleaner (so I don't have to pull everything apart).
C4
Completely off-topic, but in response to the last few posts...
Doesn't ultrasonic cleaning promote the possibility for flash-rusting? With an M&P9 and the fact that stainless doesn't take the corrosion resistance treatment nearly as well as moly-chrome, I'd be cautious about ultrasonic cleaning.
Definitely Jennings Bryco 9mm. The Hi Point or Lorcin might be a close 2nd place.
How do they stack up against Kel Tec? :cool:
I was in a store recently and two employees were comparing a pair of Kel Tecs that had just been taken out of their boxes to be placed in the display case, and they were trying to figure out why a piece of plastic appeared to have broken off one of them .
Completely off-topic, but in response to the last few posts...
Doesn't ultrasonic cleaning promote the possibility for flash-rusting? With an M&P9 and the fact that stainless doesn't take the corrosion resistance treatment nearly as well as moly-chrome, I'd be cautious about ultrasonic cleaning.
Not run into this problem at all. Then again, I use an ultra sonic cleaning solution that is DESIGNED to be used with firearms.
I put my ENTIRE M&P into it and have done so for years.
C4
Beat Trash
02-15-11, 12:23
My agency puts all of it's guns in an ultrasonic cleaner once per year, as a part of doing an annual armor's inspection. The armors take the field stripped pistols and blow them dry with an air compressor when they take the guns out.
Our M&P's have been going through this process for going on 5 years now. No issues with flash rusting.
I don't know what solution is put in the ultrasonic cleaners though.
Anybody have any thoughts on the trigger feel between a P30 and modified M&P9? I know it's not necessarily fair to compare a factory trigger to a modified one, but seeing as the P30 cost more to purchase and doesn't really have any aftermarket support, it's what I'm on the fence about. I'd probably be looking at a P30S with the idea of carrying it condition 1. I've read it's not that hot, where as the M&P9 with the Apex sear is pretty sweet. I've owned a G19 in the past, and was pretty happy with the trigger, just wouldn't mind better ergonomics from a pistol. Oh and might actually consider the M&P9 Pro. I saw some mention that it wasn't really more accurate than the standard and basically had a better trigger. This might have been at closer ranges. You guys seen better past 20 yards where someone mention the M&P9 suffered?
One more for the Glock 17.
I carry and use these pistols from the beginning (80).
Unbelievely strong, very easy to take down completely without tools...
And for the one who do not like to much to glock grip I suggest the S&W M.P. 9mm.
ffhounddog
02-24-11, 12:06
I do not want to get into ta fight on Striker,DAO,DA/SA but a gun that is I did not see listed that would be a great pistol for a person who likes DA/SA would be the FNH FNX-9. I have been shooting this gun mainly because it fits me better than my Glock 17 or M&P9.
I do not know if it is because I have trained others to shoot a M9 but this is a good system and if you like DA/SA take a look at these.
I like mine and it works well I shoot it just as good as the G17 and M&P9.
Just wanted to throw out another option that is a good blend of weight and a traditional pistol.
Magic_Salad0892
02-24-11, 15:44
Glock 17.
I do not want to get into ta fight on Striker,DAO,DA/SA but a gun that is I did not see listed that would be a great pistol for a person who likes DA/SA would be the FNH FNX-9. I have been shooting this gun mainly because it fits me better than my Glock 17 or M&P9.
I do not know if it is because I have trained others to shoot a M9 but this is a good system and if you like DA/SA take a look at these.
I like mine and it works well I shoot it just as good as the G17 and M&P9.
Just wanted to throw out another option that is a good blend of weight and a traditional pistol.
I really like the feel of that gun as well....but I didnt care for the mags that wouldnt seat unless you give em a good whacking, nor did i care for the backstrap that moved around a little bit too much.
ChicagoTex
02-24-11, 19:03
I really like the feel of that gun as well....but I didnt care for the mags that wouldnt seat unless you give em a good whacking, nor did i care for the backstrap that moved around a little bit too much.
FWIW, I'm sure you could WECSOG some kind of solution for the backstrap movement.
But obviously the mag issue would still be an issue...
Quick_1911
02-24-11, 20:12
Glock 17
The glocks are good and cheap guns, but I still like my H&K :)
I have shot the 19/34s and they are good guns!
Combat_Diver
02-25-11, 01:17
500grains,
Have you considered trying one of the other trigger options on the 226 such as their DAK or SAO? Would still get to use the same holsters, mags, parts, etc that you already have.
CD
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