View Full Version : Sabre Defence (AR-15 maker) going down?
Thought some of you might find this interesting.
http://www.shootingwire.com/story/231124
February 4, 2011
Bank Announces Liquidation of Sabre Defence
Sale by Secured Creditor , Cadence Bank, N.A., as Secured Party under Article 9 Uniform Commercial Code including: all accounts; inventory; general intangibles, equipment; documents; all Government Contracts (subject to approval and novation process).
Sabre is a licensed manufacturer of ordnance including automatic weapons. It is a contractor for the United States government, Department of Defense and also engages in the manufacture and sale of semi- automatic weapons.
Sealed Bids: No later than 12:00 p.m., February 14, 2011
Bid Acceptance: 5:00 p.m., February 14, 2011 (Except Tie Breaker)
Winning Bid Payment Due in Full: 5:00 p.m. on or before February 17, 2011
Back up Bidders Notified by 5:00 p.m. February 14, 2011
(all times stated are central time)
Qualified Bidders Only: Bids will only be accepted from "persons" holding a current and valid machine gun manufacturer's licenses issued under the United States Federal firearms laws, including but not limited to, the National Firearms Act, as amended, 26 U.S.C. §§ 5801, et seq., the Gun Control Act of 1986, as amended, 18 U.S.C. §§ 921, et seq., 27 C.F.R. §§ 478, et seq., and 27 C.F.R. §§ 479, et seq.
$100,000 Deposit. Deposit will be required of each bidder. Deposit to be made by wire transfer to Cadence Bank, NA "Sabre Escrow" or Irrevocable Letter of Credit in favor of Cadence Bank, N.A. Deposit forfeited if bidder does not possess appropriate license or for successful bidder not closing. All other deposits will be returned February 18 by wire transfer.
Opportunity to continue business at existing location with equipment in place.
Sale of assets, "AS IS, WHERE IS." No representations or warranties of Secured Creditor including fitness for a particular purpose or merchantability. All sales are final.
Secured Creditor reserves the right to cancel or delay or rescind the sale at any time prior to closing.
Bidding and Diligence details at sabresale.com
Heavy Metal
02-04-11, 13:04
Likewise Tag.
I have a friend who is sponsored by Sabre. I will call him tonight.
Well, they're being sold at least. It does say that there's "opportunity to continue business at existing location with equipment in place." As well, the bidders have to have the proper credentials to manufacture firearms. It may just end up being a management/ownership change more than an end of Sabre.
I hope they keep manufacturing anyway. I was kind of counting on them should we ever need to use the "made in Tennessee & sold in Tennessee does not fall under Interstate Commerce clause" law that TN passed.
I'm pretty sure that Sabre makes parts for some Barrett guns.
eternal24k
02-04-11, 13:48
This is interesting, especially with their new[ish] Steyr relationship.
I personally am a fan of Sabre products, hope them the best.
I wonder if this is a consequence of the ATF raid a year ago.
Sorry to hear, I also wish Sabre Defence and their employees the best.
eternal24k
02-04-11, 16:53
I wonder if this is a consequence of the ATF raid a year ago.
Doubt it, that was Sabre working with the ATF to resolve the matters of an employee stealing and selling items
I wonder if Steyr knew that Sabre was in trouble and jumped ship, or if Steyr halting the AUG A3 project was the straw that broke Sabre's back.
I know nothing of the inside details about Sabre. However, we should not automatically assume that external business forces, such as a slow economy, bursting of the AR-15 Obama election bubble, etc. caused Sabre to fail. It could simply be a case of inept or irresponsible management. Many companies with good products and good sales numbers have failed because management allowed expenses to get out of hand (including management salaries). As the expense side of the ledger grows, some accountants and finance guys outsmart themselves by leveraging the company / borrowing against assets. That works in the short term, but if there are any additional unexpected expenses or if there is a slowdown in the business cycle, then the financing obligations may be impossible to pay and that is the end. Again, I do not know what happened at Sabre.
I wonder if Steyr knew that Sabre was in trouble and jumped ship, or if Steyr halting the AUG A3 project was the straw that broke Sabre's back.
Why did they halt the project?...because nobody was buying them?
I hate to say it, but Sabre was selling a bunch of configurations that nobody really wanted. Hopefully only the name/ownership changes.
variablebinary
02-06-11, 11:11
There are too many AR15 makers
I wonder if Steyr knew that Sabre was in trouble and jumped ship, or if Steyr halting the AUG A3 project was the straw that broke Sabre's back.
+1
I knew something was up when they stopped A3 production. I didn't believe for a second it was due to lack of sales for A3s.
It was either this or the ATF was putting heat on them for importation of an assault rifle.
I hate to say it, but Sabre was selling a bunch of configurations that nobody really wanted. Hopefully only the name/ownership changes.
Yep.
Too many stainless barreled models with weird rails and stupid flip up gas blocks.
Yep.
Too many stainless barreled models with weird rails and stupid flip up gas blocks.
I have to wonder if that has something to do with maintaining a degree of uniformity with the U.K. produced models that service the European market. As far as I can tell demand for ARs in Europe is more based on competition than "combat/HD/shtf/mil. spec" rifles hence the greater emphasis on stainless barrels. Since I don't think they produce their own rail systems I would guess it from which ever company is willing to export (not that many) and were able to broker a deal will. Just a guess though.
I have/had an order through the U.K. Sabre Co. It always struck me as odd, no offence intended here, but from the gun totting U.S. they won't export rifles with 30rd magazines, flash suppressors, collapsable stocks, bayonet lugs etc From the U.K. with some of the most restrictive firearms legislation around it was "Were you after the select fire model or the semi?".
Regarding the Steyr AUG A3 they were producing:
Why did they halt the project?...because nobody was buying them?
The imported AUGs were banned from import for civilian sales by the import ban of 1989 and Steyr was late to the market in building AUGs in the US. Microtech beat them to the market by a few years with their STG556 AUG clone. People bought those and this ate up a good deal of the AUG demand.
Then we had the huge amount of black gun buying after the Obama election which also ate up a load of demand.
Thus the whole market softened for ARs as well because many people who might have bought an AR over the next few years bought it in a more compressed timeframe.
m1a_scoutguy
02-07-11, 13:38
Hey guys,,,being the Geek that I am I posted on Sabre "Facebook" page and asked them what was up ?? This is the response I got,,,so all seems to be fine,,just need to let the dust settle on the New Owners !!
Quote from there Facebook page: Sabre Def Just going through New ownership purchase.
Just figured I would share for those that are wondering or concerned ! ;)
I wonder if this is a consequence of the ATF raid a year ago.
yeah i never did hear the story on that. what happened? why were they raided?
yeah i never did hear the story on that. what happened? why were they raided?
I believe they had an employee stealing firearms.
There are too many AR15 makers
Like VB said. There are too many AR mfrs and many of which are less expensive and of better or at least same quality. If you had a choice between a Sabre Defense 16" M4 or a 16" BCM, DD, etc, which would you buy?
Sabre sells an 16" M4 complete upper for $863 and BCM sells the same for more than $300 less. That $300 could buy you a nice lower or even nearly a RAS to go on that BCM upper.
It is no surprise to me that Sabre is being sold at auction. Sounds to me like they priced themselves out of the game and have too much debt and not enough sales.
The_War_Wagon
02-07-11, 23:07
I got nothin' but good things to say about their barrel that Addax used in my custom upper last year. Sharp and accurate outta the box - whoever buys 'em would do well to keep up that end of operations, at least!
I believe they had an employee stealing firearms.
thank you but did that really facilitate a raid?common they could have caught the crooked bastard and save alot of time,money,and effort
I'll echo a few previous posts. When I first started looking at a high end AR, Saber seemed to have some good basic configurations at reasonable prices. All of a sudden those dropped off the map, and all I could find were SS barrels with silly rail/sight setups. I ended up buying a BCM and an LMT.
Those high-end odd configurations can't be selling well. They should cut the fat to some basic carbines (and a complete Mil-Spec 20" rifle which seems to have some demand now) and they would probably make a lot more sales.
I'm surprised that they aren't really pushing a civilian M16A4 since they seem to have supplied some to the mil. Missing out on a marketing opportunity like that while pushing all these Samson outfitted abortions leads me to believe they just have a poor sense of business and no insight to the current market.
BufordTJustice
02-08-11, 00:20
Like VB said. There are too many AR mfrs and many of which are less expensive and of better or at least same quality. If you had a choice between a Sabre Defense 16" M4 or a 16" BCM, DD, etc, which would you buy?
Sabre sells an 16" M4 complete upper for $863 and BCM sells the same for more than $300 less. That $300 could buy you a nice lower or even nearly a RAS to go on that BCM upper.
It is no surprise to me that Sabre is being sold at auction. Sounds to me like they priced themselves out of the game and have too much debt and not enough sales.
Took the words right out of my mouth!
It's why Shrubmaster and DPMS sales figures are down. Companies like BCM, Spikes, and DD are driving them out of business. As buyers become more educated, companies that sell over priced goods will continue to fail. That is capitalism.
thank you but did that really facilitate a raid?common they could have caught the crooked bastard and save alot of time,money,and effort
Since when has the ATF needed legitimate justification for a raid and destroying an innocent company's business? Sorry to sound jaded, but after TSA and the IRS, ATF is the most out of control and lawless agency of the US government.
BufordTJustice
02-08-11, 01:38
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/02/07/sabre-defence-is-being-liquidated/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/02/07/sabre-defence-is-being-liquidated/It will be interesting to see who the buyer, if any, will be. It's be good if FN Manufacturing, in Columbia, SC, bought the company and put them right.
Suppose that this also explains Styer ending production of the AUG A3's a few months ago.
It might be a good aqusition for a company looking for US Facilities in their bid for the Carbine Replacement Program.
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20110208/NEWS03/110208085/Federal-grand-jury-charges-gun-manufacturer-illegal-arms-trafficking?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
Oooh - damn. The plot thickens!
"Discontinuing the AUG for lack of sales"
I knew that line was bullshit the instant it was posted on the internet.
eternal24k
02-08-11, 19:00
man, exporting firearms and components in mislabeled boxes with false bottoms is bad juju, some seriously poor judgment, not something I would expect from any arms manufacturer working at their scale in the US.
A Second Amendment defense would work for me, were I on that jury. The only illegal gun is a stolen gun.
Did you read the article? They were illegally importing/exporting firearms and firearm technology and were committing pretty much every type of fraud there is.
I am a cheap ass and I would pay a couple hundred more bucks for SABRE anyday. They are a top notch manufacturer of AR's. I wonder how they went bankrupt when they got the contract to make the M16a3 and M16a4 for the Marines? It is my understanding that they also manufacture a majority of the military's barrels as well. Oh, well. There will always be other top notch AR manufacturers to buy from. Hope they do well and their employees are ok.
eternal24k
02-08-11, 19:29
I am a cheap ass and I would pay a couple hundred more bucks for SABRE anyday. They are a top notch manufacturer of AR's. I wonder how they went bankrupt when they got the contract to make the M16a3 and M16a4 for the Marines? It is my understanding that they also manufacture a majority of the military's barrels as well. Oh, well. There will always be other top notch AR manufacturers to buy from. Hope they do well and their employees are ok.
keep reading, they were involved in illegal trafficking/exporting
If you had a choice between a Sabre Defense 16" M4 or a 16" BCM, DD, etc, which would you buy?
Not to defend Sabre business practices, but their products I handled were right up there with Daniel Defense in build quality & components. I came very close to buying a Sabre complete lower, and some of their upper combinations were not uncompetitive from a street price perspective when considered next to LMT, DD, & Colt in an apples to apples comparison.
Sabre sells an 16" M4 complete upper for $863 and BCM sells the same for more than $300 less.
You are quoting MSRP for Sabre vs a street price. BCM also sells other name brands like LMT for less than their published MSRP. LMT is still cheaper than Sabre, but not by $300.
You also need to make sure it's truly apples to apples. DD, Sabre and LMT are normally sold complete with BCG and charger handle. BCM is normally priced without.
While they were available the retail street price for M4 config complete uppers were almost identical for Sabre & DD. ($650-700)
There is also a difference between a mfg and what I'd call a "builder" like BCM. BCM seems to market some nice stuff, and package existing stuff in useful combinations. But in no way would I compare BCM to a mfg like sabre or DD, even if some of their products are more attractive.
Just this simple point: I've never been able to get anyone at BCM to answer the phone or respond to a query email. Sabre, DD, LMT, AA, and others maintain a level of customer service presence that many builders do not.
It's largely moot at this point, but I'd not jump up & down in glee. My read is that we lost a good mfg, even if individuals in the company may have screwed up.
Looks like the criminal charges are a result of the raid a year ago.
I liked Sabre's products and I'm not saying they're guilty. What I am saying is what they're accused of is not included in your Second Amendment rights.
Added - I think you're taking "Firearm Technology" too superficially. There are many fabrication techniques, metal alloy compositions etc that are probably classified whether they ought to be or not. Not just the design of the gun.
I guarantee you right now you could go on Gunbroker and find a Sabre Ar-15 for less than a grand. MSRP is very high, but if you shop around they are competitve with all other makers.
ITAR has made the American firearms industry uncompetitive on the global firearms market.
They have been accused of doing so, by a branch of the govt that has taken down companies for paperwork violations, etc.
They may have done what they are accused of, but never underestimate the power of some of the agencies. Nor should we jump to conclusions prior to trial.
Put another way.... Here's a company with multiple, major contracts with the us military. Selling every bit of product they can make. Why would they risk it all selling parts and technology??? In a worldwide market where you can get any number of weapons for less? where the M4 is probably not the first choice?
Hint: It makes sense if they are doing it on behalf of some other three letter agency to bypass ITAR and similar restrictions. But got caught by bureaucracy, or even was reported by a well-intentioned employee not in the know.
I have zero data to indicate this is what happened. Just a sniff test that makes me at least allow the possibility that they were not just stupid and breaking the law.
And that we should not try them in the press.
Again, no personal connection to Sabre, don't even own one of their products. I just recognize that there are circles that see any loss of a US firearms mfg as a victory. I see it as a loss for the rest of us.
spend a little time researching guy savage, the owner.
There are many fabrication techniques, metal alloy compositions etc that are probably classified whether they ought to be or not. Not just the design of the gun.
At first I had wondered if they had released/sold info from the TDP, but I'm not sure the ATF would prosecute that, it would most likely be a commercial Intellectual Property case as that's how it's been handled in the various Colt/Army/FN/contractor SNAFU's. It's always referred to as a "technical data sales and patent license agreement" and "proprietary technical data rights".
These now belong to the Army, so it would not be Colt or FN which would pursue it. So who knows. But I've not seen any mention that the TDP was classified. It certainly has been broadly circulated in RFP's.
Key elements like metallurgy specs are known and available if not published as I understand it. Maybe specific mfg processes? CNC geometry info?
But you would not smuggle info out in false bottoms, etc. Sounded from the limited press write ups like it was parts, or complete weapons.
Followup: It was parts, according to this more detailed release:
"conspired to intentionally violate the AECA by causing firearms components, which are listed as defense articles on the U.S. Munitions List (USML), to be exported from the United States to an international location without first obtaining a license or written authorization for such export from the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) of the U.S. Department of State. " http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/February/11-crm-161.html
Add to it intentionally understating values to dodge taxes, cooked books, etc and they have a litany of stuff to work with. One other observation: Guy Savage was arrested in order to extradite at the US's request.... it does not appear there have been UK charges filed.
All that said, they were either very stupid, or there is more to the story that may never come out. Go read the history of Interarms and Sam Cummins to see how tangled the arms world is. Hint: Sam started with a USG agency sourcing weapons for them covertly.
Can we please keep this focused? It's not a request.
source: http://www.shootingwire.com/story/231389
owned by Savage
president of SDI-US
chief financial officer of SDI-US
director of sales for SDI-US
international shipping and purchasing manager of SDI-US
So I guess the "employee" that we were told was the focus of the previous "raid" was actually a pretty high level management type, not a line worker or someone in the shipping department as was previously theorized.
eternal24k
02-09-11, 07:58
I really want to know what they had to gain or why they would risk so much.
Sabre Defense indictments handed down.
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20110209/NEWS03/102090366/2066/NEWS03/Nashville-gun-maker-Sabre-charged-illegal-arms-trafficking
http://www.thecypresstimes.com/article/News/National_News/FIVE_INDIVIDUALS_AND_ONE_TENNESSEE_COMPANY_CHARGED_WITH_CONSPIRACY_TO_VIOLATE_ARMS_EXPORT_CONTROL_ACT_AND_RELATED_OFFENSES_IN_INTERNATIONAL_ARMS_TRAFFICKING_SCHEME/40092
snip
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=59678
copy all, do I need to remove it?
Just put a small excerpt and link to the article. M4C does not want the liability of copyright infringement.
There are too many AR15 makers
+1 I agree.
Ned Christiansen
02-09-11, 09:34
Best o' luck to Sabre and the employees. I've had some very good stuff from them.
I can just imagine that anyone in the business at that level has a million regs to comply with, and no doubt some are written so that complying with one violates another. Something as simple and seemingly harmless as a low-level employee shipping a front sight post to a contractor in need at an APO in Iraq, I suppose, could constitute an illegal export and ITAR violation.
The ITAR basically killed any small or medium size company, that is involed in making military hardware, from doing business worldwide.
The paperwork and lisences required to sell globlally are too expensive for a small to medium sized company to deal with.
Did you read the article? They were illegally importing/exporting firearms and firearm technology and were committing pretty much every type of fraud there is.That's the statement made by the ATF.
Let's call that statement, um, suspect, shall we?
This is America, all arms making and sales are protected by Constitutional Amendment, as well as there not being a grant of authority to the US government to prohibited any thing.
justin_247
02-09-11, 16:11
ITAR has made the American firearms industry uncompetitive on the global firearms market.
+1
Repeal it.
They were illegally importing/exporting firearms and firearm technology
The specifics from the justice dept press release indicate it was exporting components without proper license:
The indictment alleges that each of the defendants conspired to intentionally violate the AECA by causing firearms components, which are listed as defense articles on the U.S. Munitions List (USML), to be exported from the United States to an international location without first obtaining a license or written authorization for such export from the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) of the U.S. Department of State.
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/February/11-crm-161.html (No copyright concerns, it's the gov release)
That's the source press release. Nearly all the news articles are paraphrased or edited versions of the original justice department press release, and sometimes they do not get it right.
AECA is part of ITAR, so it's an ITAR violation. Sounds ominous, until you realize that the same language is used for electronics surplus like 40 year old PRC-77's and HP oscilloscopes that inadvertently get sold outside the US. Meanwhile you could buy truck loads of them in every european country freely.
And the ominous "Munitions List".... again freely available info: http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm
Specifically:
Category I-Firearms
*(a) Nonautomatic, semi-automatic and fully automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive, and all components and parts for such firearms.
§ 121.9 -- Firearms.
(a) Category I includes revolvers, pistols, rifles, carbines, fully automatic rifles, submachine guns, machine pistols and machine guns to caliber .50, inclusive. It includes combat shotguns.
Pretty much any firearm or component.
I had found another link which specifically mentioned NFA violations, so I'm speculating it was burst fire type components. (the whole world has old M-16A1 type fcg's, so no need to smuggle those)
The justice department release also details other areas of fraudulent activities: duplicate books, mislabeled shipments, etc.
So this does appear to be more than paperwork errors. They also specifically list conspiracy violate ITAR over several years.
Either these guys were just plain stupid, corrupt, or some mystery we'll never have all the facts. Some have alluded to the Brit owner having shady history, but I could not find anything shady on him. (but did not put much time into it)
m1a_scoutguy
02-09-11, 22:49
I really want to know what they had to gain or why they would risk so much.
One thing and one thing only,,, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ !!!! I'm sure he wasn't trying to get his "buddies" some AR parts over in England !!! ;)
TacticalTaco
02-10-11, 10:37
Sadly enough I knew this day would come. There are too many manufacturers of Ar style carbines, largely due to the gun bubble.
One thing and one thing only,,, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ !!!! I'm sure he wasn't trying to get his "buddies" some AR parts over in England !!! ;)
This is probably right. I found a post on a small AR variant mfg forum by someone in the company who indicated that there is huge demand for AR's even in the civvy market in Europe. Indicated even basic clones go in the $3k range.
That mfg tried multiple times to get export approved for the civilian market with no success and finally gave up. These were not generic clones, they were high end AR's.
The DoD/ITAR crew will not approve export as the AR's (all variants) are classified as weapons of war, and does not acknowledge sporting use. Even export something like a front sight post is not allowed.
So it looks like the almighty dollar and bureaucracy was the motivation for Sabre.
Regarding an AR bubble, that may be true here, but not in the rest of the world civvy market. Still not sure I'd have voted Sabre off the island. I'd have started with panthers, then moved on to shrubbery. :-)
This is probably right. I found a post on a small AR variant mfg forum by someone in the company who indicated that there is huge demand for AR's even in the civvy market in Europe. Indicated even basic clones go in the $3k range.
That mfg tried multiple times to get export approved for the civilian market with no success and finally gave up. These were not generic clones, they were high end AR's.
The DoD/ITAR crew will not approve export as the AR's (all variants) are classified as weapons of war, and does not acknowledge sporting use. Even export something like a front sight post is not allowed.
Mostly it's true. There is big demand for civi ARs for sporting use in Europe.
My first AR was Stag. This time Stag Arms made much effort to get export licence to Poland. But then BATF and DoS came into and decide that they should use AWB for export purpose. They ceased to issue export licences for anything that fit under AWB. Stag shipped some more neutered ARs (fixed stock, fixed muzzle device, 10rd magazines, cut off bayonet lug, etc.) but finally they gave up. To much hassle for too small business. For some time this place was taken by Sabre Defence, but like year or so ago Sabre as well ceased to deliver new rifles.
Now European market is mostly ARs made up of chinese made parts. Also there are nice offers from OA now (starting from just over $2000 for basic "Black Label" model), Czech made PAR piston AR (inspired by HK system) and HK MR223. Some people go trough all hassle and insane cost of US export licence to get JP Rifles imported for IPSC or 3Gun use.
No wonder why quality rifle like HK MR223 for mere $4000 is practically a bargain here. When new delivery arrives to HK distributor in Poland all are gone within a month or so.
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