Re: The S&W M&P problem thread - [Archive]

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wha-tah-hey

02-04-11, 16:02

Pistol Shooter

02-04-11, 17:23

OK. ;)

Very glad you're so pleased. :no:

wha-tah-hey

02-04-11, 18:36

I see you're new to the forum also.♦

No offense, but you didn't post there.

wha-tah-hey

02-08-11, 15:15

deleted

wha-tah-hey

02-08-11, 15:16

Pistol Shooter -

Whether justifiable or not, my reply was certainly unnecessary and unhelpful to anyone.
I truly regret it.
Since I posted publicly, I publicly apologize to you.

regards,

Terry

Pistol Shooter

02-08-11, 17:03

Not a problem at all. I appreciate your apology.

Bill

Magsz

02-08-11, 18:25

Terry,

Add more quality information to this thread with your impressions of the pistol after you get it.

There is no need to apologize for appreciating a thread filled with a ton of good quality info.

Do your part for the community and contribute after you buy the pistol. I think you will love it as the platform is steadily getting better and better despite what some naysayers have to say about it.

Best of luck with your purchase! Please keep us updated.

wha-tah-hey

02-08-11, 19:02

Tnx Magsz -

FWIW, I was apologizing for a snotty remark serving no purpose but to soothe a supposed ruffled feather.
Thank goodness, at 64, I don't have many feathers left. :D

As I said, totally unhelpful to anyone reading the thread.

But, while I still have the M&P poster on my wall (:)), I haven't jumped yet, having questions/concerns from what my research/homework has found.

Problems w/earlier production failures, 9mm/.40 accuracy, false trigger reset, inter alia, have mostly been addressed by the factory it seems, and there's almost 100% accord that the .45 I'd buy should be accurate OOB.
I know there are older-stock .45s in warehouses.
I've seen comments on ser. no. prefixes on 9mm in particular, but what is the most recent prefix for .45s?
Or perhaps, are there prefixes not having all current mods to avoid in .45s?

Thanks.

SWAT Lt.

02-08-11, 19:08

The midsize M&P is my favorite 45 ACP pistol. IMO if you buy a new production gun you aren't likely to have any problems, even if it has been in a warehouse for a bit. I belive any issues with the .45s were resolved pretty early on. The good news is S&W has excellent customer service if you do have a problem. Good luck.

Steve S.

02-08-11, 19:36

its pretty easy to spot a new production model. its also easy to see the date it was made. shoot me a pm if you need help with this or im sure google will turn up something. keep us posted.

wha-tah-hey

02-08-11, 20:35

While not specific to S/Ns, I found this:
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=207170

Notably this:
"While pistols in the low serial number range were noted as having a “different” trigger pull to them than other striker fired pistols, the most recent versions of the weapon have been noted as being much improved and are more than acceptable for duty and defense use right out of the box."

So, accepting this and the previous comments as sufficient to that question, my final hurdle is this:

I currently own a Taurus 45UL, a PT940 and a PT1911.
I had a .454 Raging Bull, had 0 probs in ~400 fullbore handloads, and traded for a brighter, shinier toy.
I CC the 450 & 1911 variously, but planned (justified?) the PT940 as my regular carry, wt/concealability vs capacity.

I've put 200ish thru the 450UL, ~350 thru the 1911, ~100 thru the 940.
I've had no problems with any that weren't addressed by different ammo, grip, mag replacement, etc.

I've read, and take to heart, the admonition to vet any CC/SD candidate with at least 500, better 1000, rounds prior to fully trusting it.
I realize "there ain't no guarantees" - any gun can fail at any time, regardless of prior experience.
And please, no Taurus-bashing - in my research I've found that "none is without sin" when it comes to reliability/QC/CS, and I can't fault my purchases so far.
Besides, I bought 'em before I had you guys to advise me. :D

So seems the prudent (Dammit! Yes! I'm tempted to buy just to have another new toy!) question is, why not use less money, buy ammo, give 'em a trial by fire and then decide?

(I hate that I always overthink things - I want a CT M&P45!) :confused:

RogerinTPA

02-08-11, 20:38

I was almost sold on an M&P45, but thought to ck out this thread first.
Started to post there, but my coments aren't about a problem.

I just want to say that, despite the roller-coaster emotional ride (I want one!...no I don't!...yes...no..), thanks to posts by john_wayne 777, c41grant, Magzs and many other knowledgeable members, I'm now able to put the issues noted in perspective.

Horror stories are horrible, but odds on my ending up with a problem child with a new (certainly mostly) updated example of a .45 seem a perfectly reasonable "risk".

I was also considering an H&K, as there seems to be a positive view of them, but it occurs that I haven't read that thread, if there is one, and there are almost certainly not as many exemplars around from which to judge.

So I'm going with the M&P - Thanks, guys and DAM a bunch of WWB! :D

IMHO, the S&W M&P45 is one of the best relatively new pistols in that caliber out there. I have the full size that's 4 years old and is one of the finest shooting .45s I've ever fired. I did break the striker doing dry firing without snap caps, but that was on me. S&W has improved their strikers since, across all of the M&Ps, so it shouldn't be an issue, but I'd still use snap caps if you do a lot of dry firing. If I had to choose today, I'd go with the mid size (not compact). Rent one, put a few boxes through it and see how it goes. Some people either love them or hate them.

wha-tah-hey

02-08-11, 21:47

BTW -

If you've had a Taurus that you vetted as above and discarded because of further problems, your comments (less bashing ;)) will be particularly appreciated.

Replies about guns not making at least the 500 round cut are no more significant to my interest here than stories of, say, Glocks, Buicks or the Bull Moose party. :no:

Thanks.

John_Wayne777

02-08-11, 23:01

question is, why not use less money, buy ammo, give 'em a trial by fire and then decide?

Because you will spend hundreds of dollars on a handgun and hundreds more on 1,000 rounds of ammo to come to the conclusion that you bought a gun that is a pile of manure.

It's not prudent to invest almost $1,000.00 on the hope that maybe it won't suck. It would be much more prudent to invest that money in a gun that objectively doesn't suck with a much better track record of reliable service and training with it.

Taurus "bashing" is entirely appropriate because they've worked very hard to earn their awful reputation. Yes, every gun company puts out lemons and problem specimens. Taurus, however, specializes in producing sub-standard weapons made from sub-standard material supported by sub-standard or non-existent customer service.

Again we get into the samples of one argument: Your guns seem to work...so far. Through all three of them you don't even have a collective count of 1,000 rounds yet. The worst car I ever owned ran just fine 300 feet off the dealer's lot too...but it sure as hell didn't stay that way.

If you're serious about getting some sidearms for personal defense, you would be far better off with something like a Glock 19, a S&W 442, and training on how to use them effectively. If the goal is having a reliable weapon that is suitable for serious use, then forget about the hillbilly handgun/pearl-handled-ghetto blaster options on the gunstore shelf and make purchases that actually have a good track record of being reliable weapons suitable for serious use.

And as for the .45 ACP requirement, I'd urge dropping that too. .45 is expensive, and unless there's somebody else footing your ammo bill or you have a vast stash of .45 ACP sitting around then you're getting less bang for your purchase dollar with .45 ACP. Again, if you are serious about the goal of carrying a pistol to defend yourself from violent attack, then put the focus where it belongs: Training is the single most critical factor in ensuring that you can achieve your goal in a real situation. The difference it makes is many orders of magnitude greater than the benefits of a slightly bigger bullet. The more expensive a weapon is to feed, the less you are able to train and practice. I cannot tell you how many people I know of who are carrying a handgun that they barely shoot because it's expensive to feed. I was just at lunch the other day with an individual who is a nice enough fellow but is literally dumber than a bag of hammers because he bought an expensive custom 1911 that he insists is fantastic but he's only fired 200 rounds through it because it's, and I quote, "too damn expensive to shoot!"

He spent over 4 times what a Glock 19 would cost to buy a maintenance intensive pistol that he doesn't know how to maintain, that shoots a caliber he can't afford, and yet he's absolutely convinced that somehow if he needs to actually use the damn thing that it will all work out just fine. I guess he thinks that if he's a good supplicant to the altar of John Moses Browning that his gun will A. work and B. stop the bad guy all by itself. (Because even a miss with a .45 ACP will rip a hole in the space-time continuum, go back through the ages and kill the bad guy's ancestors)

Buy a reliable weapon that you can afford to train with. Most people would be far better off with a good 9mm since it's the cheapest centerfire handgun to feed and it will still do anything you can reasonably expect a handgun to do.

B.K.

02-08-11, 23:11

Because you will spend hundreds of dollars on a handgun and hundreds more on 1,000 rounds of ammo to come to the conclusion that you bought a gun that is a pile of manure.

It's not prudent to invest almost $1,000.00 on the hope that maybe it won't suck. It would be much more prudent to invest that money in a gun that objectively doesn't suck with a much better track record of reliable service and training with it.

Taurus "bashing" is entirely appropriate because they've worked very hard to earn their awful reputation. Yes, every gun company puts out lemons and problem specimens. Taurus, however, specializes in producing sub-standard weapons made from sub-standard material supported by sub-standard or non-existent customer service.

Again we get into the samples of one argument: Your guns seem to work...so far. Through all three of them you don't even have a collective count of 1,000 rounds yet. The worst car I ever owned ran just fine 300 feet off the dealer's lot too...but it sure as hell didn't stay that way.

If you're serious about getting some sidearms for personal defense, you would be far better off with something like a Glock 19, a S&W 442, and training on how to use them effectively. If the goal is having a reliable weapon that is suitable for serious use, then forget about the hillbilly handgun/pearl-handled-ghetto blaster options on the gunstore shelf and make purchases that actually have a good track record of being reliable weapons suitable for serious use.

Training is what everyone needs when they own a handgun(including myself.) I'm hoping to use tax money for classes this yr. The M&P is a good choice and great CS!!!

wha-tah-hey

02-09-11, 00:31

JW -

I've read enough of your posts to respect your opinion a great deal, but perhaps you misread my post.

I already own the guns and the fact that I'm asking in pursuit of a researched answer speaks, I submit, to the undeserved characterization of buying "hillbilly handgun/pearl-handled-ghetto blaster options on the gunstore shelf".
Granted, if I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now, I'd have an M&P.

As to:
"Through all three of them you don't even have a collective count of 1,000 rounds yet."
That's why the question of further testing in my previous post.
I handload, have molds, alloy, primers, brass, powder, dies, etc., sufficient and quite suitable for such test purposes, so in fact, we're discussing almost no further cash outlay if I don't buy another gun.
True, I'll replace the used stock, but I'd do that regardless of the gun tested.
So, time aside (and I'm retired, enjoy loading/shooting, w/a recycleable range in my front yard), vetting all 3 would cost maybe $50.
Should they prove out, money saved on a new M&P could then go to training as encouraged by B.K., or practice.

I post on other forums, and have read much of Taurus-related problems.
I've read AR articles on various Taurus products (taking them with the essential grain of gun mag salt).
I've even read of Tauruses than have some Ks of round with nothing more than "common-to-any" issues.
And, FWIW, I used a sample-of-four-example, not to prove the quality of Tauruses or to provoke nay-sayers, but as personal experience to present the reason behind the question.

I could write off the investment & put/throw/give 'em away, or dump 'em on someone else, and buy the M&P, but one strikes me as irrational, the other unethical.

I don't think you're saying they, being Tauruses, cannot be reliable.
I'm unaware of such a conclusion presented elsewhere, but if you are, or anyone else is, I'd greatly appreciate being apprised of it and question closed.

Unfortunately, I can't think if a more reasonable approach than that I've presented.

DanjojoUSMC

02-09-11, 00:56

I think it's more a situation similar to this scenario. Say you are supposed to pick out a parachute from one of several piles sitting in a hanger. A guy walks you past each pile and tells you this pile is testing at 40%, that pile 70%, and 90% for the pile down there.

There are several that work just fine in each pile, but you'd be silly to not choose from the 90% pile if you think you might actually have to jump out of a plane.

wha-tah-hey

02-09-11, 01:27

I recognize your contributions to the forum also, Danjojo USMC, and I don't discount your expertise either.

I'm aware of the unquantifiable-but-greater-than-some-others risk in carrying a Taurus vs something else.

You two have reconvinced me to get the M&P.

It occurs to me that the most reasonable, even elegant, solution is to buy the M&P and keep the Tauruses for fun and when my kids come to visit/shoot!

I love it when a plan comes together!

Again, thanks guys.

ghettomedic

02-09-11, 01:31

I've put 200ish thru the 450UL, ~350 thru the 1911, ~100 thru the 940.
I've had no problems with any that weren't addressed by different ammo, grip, mag replacement, etc.

So you have had problems with them, then? And after fixing these problems how many rounds have you shot to confirm the problems were actually fixed by different ammo/grip/mags? Not to belabor the point, but your round counts are statistically insignificant to determine whether any of these guns offers an acceptable degree of reliability so as to be trusted as a carry gun.

I know it may seem like ball-busting at times, but everyone involved wants you to have a good gun you can trust your life on. The long-term, high-round count reliability of the Taurus semiautos is not acceptable for a carry gun and the members of this forum (and most serious guntoters) have come to that conclusion over years of study and hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange.

On the other hand, the pedigree of the M&P line (less a few stumbles out of the gate) speaks for itself. There are members on this forum with well over 50,000 rounds through their M&P pistols and others who have served as unit armorers for agencies fielding hundreds or thousands of M&P pistols. Those individuals come here and share their experiences because they want folks like you and I to know what works and what doesn't. I don't have the resources to T&E gear to the extent that our fellow members do, so I rely on their advice.

As to what to do about your Tauruses (Tauri?), that's another matter. Keep them for plinkers, sell them, it's up to you. I will say one thing on the matter, however. Prior to joining this site, I was a "firearms accumulator". I'd buy guns, blast 50 rounds through them once a month and call it good.

In the past 16 months, I've sold 6 guns to fund the purchase of "better" guns and support equipment. Do I feel like I lost out on money or cheated myself in doing so? Not at all. It's addition by subtraction. I'm down to 2 primary handguns, an AR-15 and a shotgun and my shooting has never been better. Why? I've cut the fat. I can afford to shoot 1000 rounds a month through my carry gun now. I can spend the money on a good, combat-proven optic for my rifle instead of Airsoft crap. Range day used to mean 10 different pistol cases, 5 ammo cans and 6 hours. Now I get out of my truck with my carry gun on, get my AR off the backseat and go shoot.

When you don't have to split up range time, acquire 500 different holsters, stock 10 kinds of ammo and remember 12 different manuals of arms a lot of the bullshit fades away.

wha-tah-hey

02-09-11, 01:50

ghettomedic, I admit to being a bit gunshy, from postings on other forums (forae?), so often by less-than-qualified respondents.

While I've already decided, fully in line with your input, I'm glad to be reminded precisely why I began to post here in the first place.

Thanks.

wha-tah-hey

02-09-11, 05:13

And to Magsz and all -

I will let you know my impressions when I get it and can give a field report.

Thanks again to all.

regards,

Terry

CoryCop25

02-09-11, 05:51

My first M&P was the full size .45. Other than the sand paper like trigger, it was accurate, reliable and felt great in the hand. I then purchased a full size 40 and then a 40c. Compared to the 45 the latter 2 were crap IMHO. I ended up selling all 3 for Glock counterparts. I have many Glocks and will own many more BUT..... I have always have a soft spot for the mid size 45. I picked one up on Friday and I have decided to do this one right. The M&Ps seem like they are part of my hand. The size of the mid 45 is perfect! I am not going to shoot this until I install the Apex parts and new sights (haven't decided what sights yet) installed. I plan on attaching a TLR1s and adding a Raven holster. I will always be partial to my Glocks but this will be the exception. From your first post, upgrading to the M&P will make you very pleased.
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Guns/IMAG0115.jpg

RogerinTPA

02-09-11, 06:38

wha-tah-hey

02-09-11, 07:00

Roger, I assure you my remarks were in no way directed at you and your kind post.
I was merely trying to forestall posts about low-mileage Tauruses.
Regrettably, it just happened to follow your post.
In any case, having opted for an M&P, the whole question of Taurus in now a non-issue.
I sincerely hope this satisfies you.

CoryCop25 - My preference is the mid-size, but I don't see it listed on S&W's website w/CT.
In .45, I see only the FS with 'em.
(I thought I saw the 45c, but must have the .40 w/CT.)

CoryCop25

02-09-11, 22:54

yhmspecter

02-13-11, 23:13

I Have both an M&P 9 and 45 I love them and so far no problems.