View Full Version : Carbine shooting while moving..
I recently attended a carbine and pistol course and we did advancing on the target and shooting with the carbine. In a nutshell, I need more work in this area. Most of my carbine shooting is from a stationary position and I'm ok there but the advancing on target part pretty much sucked. Can you guys offer any specific suggestions that would help me with my accuracy? I'm trying to tighten up my group and become more consistent with my shot placement.
Robb Jensen
09-03-07, 14:19
Watch the Todd Jarrett video 'shooting on the move' (http://myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/shooting.html?feedPID=roI_0LRpH7qQmkKcVa8X0Vt80ahwO0rX), it's pretty good. Foot work on pistol and carbine is the same.
SIMPLYDYNAMIC
09-03-07, 15:40
maintain a steady heel to toe walk and tighten up your abs and upper body as much as needed to keep on targett...
Sidewinder6
09-03-07, 16:15
Watch the Todd Jarrett video 'shooting on the move' (http://myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/shooting.html?feedPID=roI_0LRpH7qQmkKcVa8X0Vt80ahwO0rX), it's pretty good. Foot work on pistol and carbine is the same.
Hey Thanks for that link. I just watch in amazment. Outstanding manipulation
skills.
Shooting on the move with a long gun is much harder to do than with a pistol. Even with applying the groucho walk, it's not natural with a long gun.
Thanks so much for that link!!! I wish I'd seen it before the course. Now excuse me while I pick my jaw up from the floor:eek: .
Gunfighter13
09-03-07, 18:08
maintain a steady heel to toe walk and tighten up your abs and upper body as much as needed to keep on targett...
+1 Just add timing and rhythm to it. :cool:
Robb Jensen
09-03-07, 18:17
Thanks so much for that link!!! I wish I'd seen it before the course. Now excuse me while I pick my jaw up from the floor:eek: .
Todd is very skilled and good at explaining what goes on. He's a great guy to shoot with, he's WAY down to earth and gives a ton of free advice and instruction.
I too usually don't do too well in classes with shooting and moving with a long-gun (pistol shooting and moving I usually can do no problem). Even in 3gun competition I stop/pause just for a second to make the shots and then run balls to the wall to the next target array.
As Todd says "always be going somewhere", after 3yrs of competition shooting I'm still learning this one although I am pretty good at it. The bigger the stage the better I do against the other competitors. It's the fast and low round count stages where I do worse.
+1 Just add timing and rhythm to it. :cool:
That's funny you mention that because my buddy that teaches the CF guys in Afghanistan gave me the exact same tip yesterday. Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll be putting it to use as soon as I can get back to the range. "Must get better, must get better".:cool:
The opening scene in Todd Jarrett's videos showed him shooting the IPSC steel on the half run barely a couple feet from those targets. I wondered what kind of ammo he was using to avoid bullet splatters. We normally shoot steel from a minimum of 10 yds, using normal full power ammo (lead or jacketed).
LukeMacGillie
09-04-07, 12:33
Get a cheap visible laser and put it on your carbine. Put up paper plates thruout your house. Practice walking with the weapon and keeping the vlas on target.
Sidewinder6
09-04-07, 16:08
The opening scene in Todd Jarrett's videos showed him shooting the IPSC steel on the half run barely a couple feet from those targets. I wondered what kind of ammo he was using to avoid bullet splatters. We normally shoot steel from a minimum of 10 yds, using normal full power ammo (lead or jacketed).
Yup. I had to watch that twice to see he is shooting them at a forward angle so the splatter is headed across the range at a 45 degree angle I think. He says later in another video he is shooting a .40. The boy is good!
SIMPLYDYNAMIC
09-04-07, 17:37
Todd uses Winchester Frangible ammo which uses a unique nylon, tungsten and copper composite bullets by DFA which are 100% lead free.
Great stuff! he had a segment on the show demoing it... he had a full auto M4 and put 30rds on a steel plate at about 2 feet away!
The thing that has helped me the most both in doing it myself as well as teaching/coaching people to shoot on the move is to "shoot from the waist up; move from the waist down."
Like a lot of things in life, it's not really complicated. It's simple. It's not necessarily easy, but it's simple.
Learning to move without your upper body bobbing and weaving too much is something you can do without your gun/carbine. The trick with the partially filled water bottle (Mat Burkett's drill) held like your gun while you moving around, trying to keep the water level works pretty well. You can do the same thing inside with a flashlight or laser and watch how much the light moves on the wall as you move.
Most people can advance, withdraw, and move toward their strong side pretty well after a little practice. Moving toward the support side a bit more challenging if you don't choose to walk backwards, but you can adapt.
LAV does a great job teaching shooting on the move. SAM is right that shooting a rifle accurately on the move is much harder than pistol. The "groucho" heel to toe and toe to heel system works. There's more to stabilizing the platform than just your lower extremities which LAV teaches also. I don't think I'm buying into the balance beam deal for anything other than games like USPSA and IDPA. Which is what that video is about. There's other lateral movement methods also that Todd doesn't address, like the crab walk which is harder to learn but a valid method to know and practice since the world isn't flat and your environment has a lot to do with dictating what will and won't work while shooting on the move. Hackathorn's box/square drill is a great drill for shaking those out on the range. Also good is the Mexican Defense drill. Both are designed for pistols but you could increase the range and run them with a rifle.
The terrain was undulating and caused me to throw shots at times when I thought I was settled then all of a sudden my foots drops into a 5" depression. It'd be different if it was flat and level like a road but I guess that's the cool part about learning how to do it. What's this crab walk?
The terrain was undulating and caused me to throw shots at times when I thought I was settled then all of a sudden my foots drops into a 5" depression. It'd be different if it was flat and level like a road but I guess that's the cool part about learning how to do it. What's this crab walk?
Crab walk is lateral movement where your feet meet in the middle at each step. No crossing over. I find it unnatural but see the advantage when, as a right handed shooter moving left and shooting right you don't have to torque at the waist like if you were stepping left, feet forward and twisting to the right to shoot.
maintain a steady heel to toe walk and tighten up your abs and upper body as much as needed to keep on targett...
Combat glide.
toddackerman
09-16-07, 10:50
I recently attended a carbine and pistol course and we did advancing on the target and shooting with the carbine. In a nutshell, I need more work in this area. Most of my carbine shooting is from a stationary position and I'm ok there but the advancing on target part pretty much sucked. Can you guys offer any specific suggestions that would help me with my accuracy? I'm trying to tighten up my group and become more consistent with my shot placement.
MoJo...been working on more moving as well. Agree with everything that Todd Jarret points out, but have found that IF I make the shot while one foot is in the air, I get better hits then trying to get the shot off with one or the other foot hitting the ground and disturbing my sight picture.
Interested to see what others that are more informed have to say about this, or if they have had the same experience.
Tack
I find when shooting on the move its best if I shoot when my forward foots heel is touching down - I then have two points of contact resulting in more stability.
but have found that IF I make the shot while one foot is in the air, I get better hits then trying to get the shot off with one or the other foot hitting the ground and disturbing my sight picture.
Interested to see what others that are more informed have to say about this, or if they have had the same experience.
Tack
Bennie Cooley teaches that to start people off shooting while moving. It's sort of a drag step that allows you to monopod on your support side leg when the firing side foot comes off the ground and before firing side heel makes contact. So, you could be moving and shooting but if you need to get a technical shot off you would slow down just enough with your weight on the support side leg to break the shot before resuming a "normal" movement.
FWIW- he also believes that if you can't make the shot within 3 steps you would've been better off just stopping and planting to take the shot (time-wise).
FWIW- he also believes that if you can't make the shot within 3 steps you would've been better off just stopping and planting to take the shot (time-wise).
That's interesting information. Thanks for contributing!
So if I understand you correctly, I shoot right handed: as I'm stepping forward with my weight on my left foot, just as my right foot is coming down to the ground, I squeeze off?
You can't really "plan" when to pull the trigger. What dictates when you fire? It's your threat (if it was a real confrontation). Like another poster eluded on, you can't shoot when you're planting your feet, this usually causes a low miss. I've done it in my early days of trying to learn to shoot on the move. You have to learn the "wobble zone", i.e. the acceptable flash sight picture and press your trigger when your sights (or optical dot) is in the acceptable wobble zone. Your shot will be in there, you're not going to shoot a nice dime size group, but your shots will be good enough to take care of your threat. In the groucho walk and the crab walk (as described by Mayo), you will see your dot or front sight wobble, assuming you're doing everything correctly such as bending your knees, walking heel to toe, separating your upper body turret from your "wheels", you should be able to hit a man size target somewhere in a 10" circle on the chest when you press the trigger (not snatch it).
toddackerman
09-19-07, 12:44
That's interesting information. Thanks for contributing!
So if I understand you correctly, I shoot right handed: as I'm stepping forward with my weight on my left foot, just as my right foot is coming down to the ground, I squeeze off?
That's how understood it as well.
We now have 2 options...one says Pop It before the foot hits the ground, and one who says wait until the heel of the trailing foot hits the ground before firing.
I'm getting ready to go out to the range after 5 weeks of Back Surgery recovery and experiment. I just have to be careful not to trip and fall as this would probably end up in another trip to the hospital.
I really wish we could get some of the instructors to give us their feed back.
Tack.
toddackerman
09-19-07, 12:47
You can't really "plan" when to pull the trigger. What dictates when you fire? It's your threat (if it was a real confrontation). Like another poster eluded on, you can't shoot when you're planting your feet, this usually causes a low miss. I've done it in my early days of trying to learn to shoot on the move. You have to learn the "wobble zone", i.e. the acceptable flash sight picture and press your trigger when your sights (or optical dot) is in the acceptable wobble zone. Your shot will be in there, you're not going to shoot a nice dime size group, but your shots will be good enough to take care of your threat. In the groucho walk and the crab walk (as described by Mayo), you will see your dot or front sight wobble, assuming you're doing everything correctly such as bending your knees, walking heel to toe, separating your upper body turret from your "wheels", you should be able to hit a man size target somewhere in a 10" circle on the chest when you press the trigger (not snatch it).
Great input Sam!
What do you guys think about at what distances is "Shooting on the Move" an option...and I know one answer is...."Depends how good you are". But seriously...?
I saw on the Todd Jarret videos where he hits a popper 75 yds. away while moving forward, but this guy isn't "Human"!
Tack
One of my instructors' favorite quote is: " Your skill is your reality " . That is very true when applied to shooting on the move. For me, shooting a carbine on the move (while I'm moving sloooowly) is 30 yds and less to be able to hit an A zone on an IDPA or USPSA papar target, about the same for a pepper popper. A pistol is 15 yds. or less (for me) for similar target. I'm not Todd Jarrett :).
That's interesting information. Thanks for contributing!
So if I understand you correctly, I shoot right handed: as I'm stepping forward with my weight on my left foot, just as my right foot is coming down to the ground, I squeeze off?
Sort of, all you're doing is giving yourself more time to make the shot. The shot can break at any point in your movement, e.g. foot leaving ground, foot meeting ground, foot in air, foot on ground.
The idea is by taking a longer step you have more time to get sight picture, sight alignment and trigger press down for a "perfect" shot. You're not necessarily trying to time your shot to any specific body position.
As Sam stated, your cadence of fire will be dictated by the situation.
The technique mentioned above is not meant to be "the way" to shoot while moving, just an option if you need to make a technical shot.
Hope this helps.
When taught intially to shoot on the move - I was told to shoot when my left foot (I'm a righty) was starting to come to rest (by the time you shoot the foot is planted). The move onto shooting one both parts of the stride (left and right foot).
I shoot pretty much any time depending upon distance and speed - I verified this by having a guy watch me while we where training yesterday.
I utterly agree with Sam in that tgt's appear in real life regardless if you have your best shooting platform or not - but for intial indoc for beginers to shooting on the move - its best (IMHO) for them to start slowly and work on their technique of holding the weapon steady.
We have guys start at the 100m or 50m point and walk in out and around while engage tgt on command or as they appear as they get closer they shoot faster - and as we pick up the movement speed they slow theur rate of fire as well.
YMMV - I dont claim to be the guru on this.
I owe all of my shooting on the move techniques to Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, Dave Harrington and Ernest Langdon. Anyone who wants to learn to shoot on the move should take classes from those gentlemen.
toddackerman
09-19-07, 15:11
All great inputs guys...Thanks!
I got out to train a little today and did nothing but "Move and shoot Drills". Although I'm not sure of what "Platform" is best yet (probably because i was going tooooo fast!), this is what I did learn about my capabilities:
1. I was able to put 100% of my hits in the "A" zone moving back-wards from 10 - 20 yds. I was able to do this 3 times with 10 shot strings.
2. I was able to put 80% of my shots in the "A" zone, and 20% of my shots in the "B" zone (mostly centered but stringing vertically) moving forward from 20 yds - 10 yds. I did this 3 times with 10 shot strings.
Now things get interesting....
3. I was able to only put about 50% of my shots in the "A" Zone, 30% of my shots in the "B" Zone, and only 20% of my shots on the rest of the target moving left to right. I did this 3 times shooting 10 shot strings at 20 yds. Definitely moving too fast, and clearly noticed the "horizontal challenges" associated with moving laterally, and having to treat my "Trunk" totally separate from my "Turret".
Now the real grim news...
4. I was only able to put 20% of my hits in the "A" zone, 30% of my hits in the "B" zone, 40% "Somewhere on the target", and missed totally 10% of the time moving right to left. I did this 3 times shooting 10 shot strings at 20 yds.
I had never felt so uncomfortable as I did moving right to left. I almost feel like I should move "Back-wards" in the left direction I want to go versus forwards. It was "Awful". I felt like I wanted to transition to my "Weak Shoulder" (which i know is unacceptable.
I'm determined to get this down to where I can move anywhere I want, at anytime and get "A" zone hits 100% of the time moving fairly quickly at 20 yds., but man am I dreading the "Left to Right" exercises. But as we all know....you must train, and master the elements that are the most challenging...not just the easiest for you.
Next time I am going into "Super Slow Motion" so I can really test out what Platform" works for me on the move. Both feet on the ground, just the lead heel when it touches, shooting when 1 foot is actually in the middle of transitioning etc. I know moving backwards it didn't matter. Everything else is "up in the air" at least for me.
Thanks again for your inputs!
Tack
Tack
NCPatrolAR
09-19-07, 15:12
I owe all of my shooting on the move techniques to Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, Dave Harrington and Ernest Langdon. Anyone who wants to learn to shoot on the move should take classes from those gentlemen.
How about Paul Howe? ;)
How about Paul Howe? ;)
Milfmasta:
You wanna get me killed or what???
Paul Howe believes in doing one thing or the other but not both, for those who are not familiar with Paul's teaching. He said if you're moving, you need to haul ass, and if you shoot, find a good cover or at least concealment and deliver your shots.
NCPatrolAR
09-19-07, 15:38
Milfmasta:
You wanna get me killed or what???
.
Dont worry.... as long as you have a chamber flag, you'll be ok.
Over the years I have seen various methods taught for shooting on the move. Be it the drag step (seems popular with the Gunsite crowd) or the groucho; they all seemed to have something to offer. I tend to look at it this way: stay focused on heel/toe roll and use your knees as shock absorbers and things should work out as long as you are applying the fundamentals of marksmanship.
Milfmasta:
You wanna get me killed or what???
Paul Howe believes in doing one thing or the other but not both, for those who are not familiar with Paul's teaching. He said if you're moving, you need to haul ass, and if you shoot, find a good cover or at least concealment and deliver your shots.
He does believe in shooting on the move in CQB, right?
Undoubtedly, you must fire when you have to.
I do find that shooting between steps, with only one foot on the ground gives me better stability with regards to my rifle but I try to work on firing at each part of my walk.
Face_N_The_Crowd
10-08-07, 01:49
Calling your shot is calling your shot.
Shooting on the move - once you get the groucho down you realize it is more about just doing the work - your mind and body just have to do it over and over to see what works for you....at the end of the day you have to solve two basic problems -
You can not go anywhere unless your feet are moving
You can not hit anything unless your upper body is able to stay quiet enough for your mind to process what the front sight is trained on
The rest is being able to call your shot.
The more you do it, the faster and more accurate you will be.
Don't cross your feet!
Try to keep the butt of the rifle close to the center of your chest when you are shooting on the move. This keeps the rifle sights from bouncing around. I have shot well using this technique for a couple of years.
Nathan_Bell
10-10-07, 09:44
The terrain was undulating and caused me to throw shots at times when I thought I was settled then all of a sudden my foots drops into a 5" depression. It'd be different if it was flat and level like a road but I guess that's the cool part about learning how to do it. What's this crab walk?
Or you go from mown range lane to non mowed 18-24" tall grass, or you run into a barrel that you 'knew' was 10 feet further away, or you hit your head on a low brace for a power line.
In other words, don't lose SA by concentrating on shooting so hard you zone out everything else
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