View Full Version : The truth about Wolf ammo
MilitaryArms
02-06-11, 17:14
Wolf ammo and it's quality is a hot topic on the boards. I wanted to discuss some of the myths about using Wolf and also some of the facts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960
Comments are always welcome.
I think you should have pulled a bullet to show that a magnet will stick to the bullet, and cut one in half to shot what it's made of.
I also think you should have taken a torch to a polymer coated case to show that the polymer wouldn't melt off.
I think you should have shot a group with good ammunition to show what a good group looks like.
Overall I think the video is pretty decent and puts a lot of information together in one place.
Thank you for the video :)
How can you beat 1000/ rds for less than $200 delivered...I've shot wolf and brown bear ammo in the carbine classes I've taken without any problems. As far as the accuracy is concerned, well, that was more me than the ammo.
Wolf ammo and it's quality is a hot topic on the boards. I wanted to discuss some of the myths about using Wolf and also some of the facts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR3fi1wCSmM
Comments are always welcome.
Nice presentation. One minor detail to note: the "bi-metal" jacket actually consists of a thin layer of copper, a thick layer of steel and then another thin layer of copper.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=71792
http://www.box.net/shared/static/t83v3rhdr6.jpg
....
MilitaryArms
02-06-11, 18:45
Nice presentation. One minor detail to note: the "bi-metal" jacket actually consists of a thin layer of copper, a thick layer of steel and then another thin layer of copper.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=71792
http://www.box.net/shared/static/t83v3rhdr6.jpg
....
Good info, thanks.
The_Biased_Observer
02-06-11, 18:58
What's the point of the interior copper layer? Does steel next to lead do something? Can't be a manufacturing efficiency thing with the price of copper... can it?
I haven't bought any Wolf yet for my AK but did just pick up a case of Golden Tiger from PSA for $199.99. Primers and bullets both sealed, cases and bullets all look consistent. if I didn't know better I'd say this stuff looks a lot like Hornady.
JR TACTICAL
02-06-11, 19:58
Hey I heard a rumor about Wolf ammo??? Is it true that the red primer sealent can leak out of the primer pocket and cause a mess. I dont know if its true and its not comming from a very reliable source but I figured I would ask anyway.
Also is it advisble to run wolf ammo in a Daniel Defense rifle. I really enjoy shooting but have not been able to do it alot because of the price of brass cased 5.56 ammo
Just wanted to get the opinion of the pros on this site that have way more experience that I
Thanks
JR
I have a picture somewhere of a bolt & firing pin after thousands of rounds of Wolf. I didn't get any malfunctions that I could trace to the buildup before cleaning it, but it was definitely there.
RogerinTPA
02-06-11, 20:36
I think you should have pulled a bullet to show that a magnet will stick to the bullet, and cut one in half to shot what it's made of.
I also think you should have taken a torch to a polymer coated case to show that the polymer wouldn't melt off.
I think you should have shot a group with good ammunition to show what a good group looks like.
Overall I think the video is pretty decent and puts a lot of information together in one place.
Agreed. Melted lacquer in the chamber is the biggest fallacy of them all.
Hey I heard a rumor about Wolf ammo??? Is it true that the red primer sealent can leak out of the primer pocket and cause a mess. I dont know if its true and its not comming from a very reliable source but I figured I would ask anyway.
It doesn't leak out on it's own if that's what you're implying. The sealant is over applied from the beginning and when the primer goes off, it's exploded/ejected all over the weapon's innards. Particularly on the bolt face and under the extractor. Shoot several thousand rounds without cleaning and you will start to develop stuck cases due to that red sealant building up under the extractor, carbon and unburned powder residue in the chamber, causing a failure to extract.
Good vid. I've been shooting only wolf in my AR for a while now. I used to clean it after every range trip but have decided to see how long it can go before NEEDING to be cleaned. Only about 350 rounds so far, most of that at a carbine course. You already can't read BCM on the carrier anymore, but its running just fine...lol
When sighting in at the course from 25 meters, prone with a bipod, my 3 shot groups usually had all three holes touching unless it was a called flier.
MilitaryArms
02-06-11, 20:58
I have a picture somewhere of a bolt & firing pin after thousands of rounds of Wolf. I didn't get any malfunctions that I could trace to the buildup before cleaning it, but it was definitely there.
I saw something similar to that on the firearms blog some time back.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/09/a-clean-wouldnt-hurt/
Thomas M-4
02-06-11, 21:32
What's the point of the interior copper layer? Does steel next to lead do something? Can't be a manufacturing efficiency thing with the price of copper... can it?
No Molon but if I had to take a SWAG at it. I would say that the steel jacket tube [roll] was copper plated before it was cut and formed into a jacket and the lead core swaged in.
I saw something similar to that on the firearms blog some time back.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/09/a-clean-wouldnt-hurt/
Whoa.....
I couldn't let mine go that far just because of what a PITA it would be to clean at that point...lol
I have a picture somewhere of a bolt & firing pin after thousands of rounds of Wolf. I didn't get any malfunctions that I could trace to the buildup before cleaning it, but it was definitely there.
I think this is the pic you are talking about.......15,000 rounds of wolf
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f240/mvician/ppppp_desktop_px_1-tfb.jpg
No, it's a pic I took of my own gun, with the bolt taken apart and the inside of the extractor and the firing pin visible. Can't find it now.
I love Wolf. I've never had a problem running it, and it's my ammo of choice on lost-brass ranges.
has anyone ever done a water test with wolf/steel case?
just curious how it would hold up to being exposed to humidity/rain/flood
jumbopanda
02-07-11, 15:56
has anyone ever done a water test with wolf/steel case?
just curious how it would hold up to being exposed to humidity/rain/flood
Haven't you ever been to a range where people have shot Wolf? There are usually old rusty casings strewn everywhere. :D
But unless you plan on leaving your ammo out in the rain for weeks or more, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
christcorp
02-07-11, 16:53
Haven't you ever been to a range where people have shot Wolf? There are usually old rusty casings strewn everywhere. :D
But unless you plan on leaving your ammo out in the rain for weeks or more, you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
Old rusty cases? Sorry, but that's the whole purpose of the lacquer, and more recently the polymer. Stop rust and corrosion on a Steel case. I have yet to see "Rusty Cases". Ever. Maybe you're confusing the grayish/brown polymer or the greenish brown lacquer for rust.
I've seen rusty cases. Its usually com-bloc stuff, like 7.62x39 and 7.62x54r.
honestly once its fired i wouldn't care. but i'd guess firing would/could change the protective properties of the poly/laq.
so far i haven't had issue with any non-brass ammo. i just have concerns of the elements. storage, SHTF('cane). i may buy a sample of each and test the moisture resistance.
christcorp
02-07-11, 19:02
I grew up in New Jersey; where humidity and salt water is definitely an issue. I'd imagine the same in any coastal area. But now, I live in Wyoming. It's almost impossible to even get a car to rust. We don't even use salt on the roads.
But for those who want the inexpensive steel case, but are afraid of corrosion; "Even though that's the whole purpose of the polymer/lacquer; there is another option. Zinc plated. Silver Bear and MFS use zinc plated. It looks like Nickle plated. Honestly, the polymer and/or lacquer is a better protector. I've never seen any steel case lacquer/polymore coated ever rust/corrode. And that's with living 4 years in Austin Texas where it's pretty humid.
Old rusty cases? Sorry, but that's the whole purpose of the lacquer, and more recently the polymer. Stop rust and corrosion on a Steel case. I have yet to see "Rusty Cases". Ever. Maybe you're confusing the grayish/brown polymer or the greenish brown lacquer for rust.
The spent cases rust plenty. A few times I've had surface rust show up on the new gray polymer coated stuff after taking it to the range, not shooting it, and bringing it back.
It seems that the newer coating doesn't protect against corrosion quite as good as the old lacquer, but also doesn't have the occasional drip or run that mucks up the case exterior dimensions.
The red primer sealant crap does indeed get everywhere - bolt, barrel extension, etc - but I've never seen firsthand any problems from it. A q-tip with some denatured alcohol on it cleans it up just about instantly.
I haven't shot any Wolf .223 in a long time; no point now that I can roll my own.
christcorp
02-08-11, 15:10
bolt; I have to say it: Lacquer does NOT drip or run off the cases. Doesn't happen. Never happened. You can take a new round; pull the bullet, powder, and primer; and hit the case with a torch. And you won't see anything dripping off. Isn't going to happen. Sorry. And your chamber/barrel will not get as hot as a torch.
But back to rust. Not saying that that can't happen. Just that I haven't seen it. And as mentioned earlier, there's a big difference between "Modern Russian steel Case ammo" and "Military Surplus". If you buy any wolf, bear, barnaul, MFS, tula, tiger, etc... Then it's ALL New Production. None of it is military surplus. And you're not going to see rust on it. If you're able to find some old military surplus; sealed in cans; then it is possible to see some rust if it's old enough. But that ammo is old, more expensive (Only because people will pay more because they think it's better), and lower velocity and pressure. (Which is one of the reasons some people have discussed that some of this ammo causes short stroking). But modern day steel case russian ammo is produced to right at the same specs that most domestic .223 ammo is set for. Around 3100-3250 fps. Doesn't short stroke. Isn't corrosive. Isn't going to hurt your extractor, ejector, bolt, barrel, etc... The only thing you have to remember is to clean your rifle more often to remove the residue created by "Blow Back", because the steel case doesn't expand and seal the chamber as well as brass. This blow back allows carbon deposits to build up in the chamber. After enough rounds, you could experience sticking cases in the chamber. Especially if you shoot brass ammo after shooting a lot of steel. (It's this carbon deposits, NOT drip/melted lacquer that causes cases to stick). Just clean your rifle more often.
I have only ever noticed the steel cases rusting AFTER being shot.
There is no rust protection on the inside of the cases, and rust on mild steel migrates rather quickly.
I think of these as "green" cases. When I am somewhere that I can't recover my cases I like to use the steel stuff, they rust into nothing after awhile so I am leaving no trace, I'm just returning them to the earth and all. ;)
I think of these as "green" cases. When I am somewhere that I can't recover my cases I like to use the steel stuff, they rust into nothing after awhile so I am leaving to trace, I'm just returning them to the earth and all. ;)
Haha that's great, I have to remember that. Wolf ammo "the environmentally friendly ammo."
As far as rust goes....
I've shot a number of cases of both Brown and Silver Bear. I like it, and it shoots accurately in my rifles. But both case types will rust quickly after they're shot. I've had a bunch land in my truck bed as they are ejected, and a few days after that they'll be leaving rust marks all over the bed. I can also walk all over the areas where I shoot at the back of my field and find rusted brown & silver cases.
Not like I care, as they're all simply working their way down to iron oxide. But they do rust...and fairly quickly at that.
I enjoyed your video, although I was already familiar with its content. The average guy watching youtube isn't, and maybe this will help to dispell the nonsense that's repeated endlessly about steel case ammunition.
As for the guitar solo in Stairway to heaven; imho one of the best of all time.
Jim
Is TULA made by wolf? I thought I heard that somewhere. I heard its the same thing
Wolf doesn't make anything. Their a company that imports ammunition (usually Russian) and sells it under the Wolf name. Wolf Performance Ammunition in the black box was coming from Tula. Wolf Military Classic was made by Ulyanovsk. I believe Wolf is now also selling Barnaul manufactured ammunition packaged as Wolf WPA.
Is TULA made by wolf? I thought I heard that somewhere. I heard its the same thing
Whootsinator
02-09-11, 17:27
bolt; I have to say it: Lacquer does NOT drip or run off the cases. Doesn't happen. Never happened. You can take a new round; pull the bullet, powder, and primer; and hit the case with a torch. And you won't see anything dripping off. Isn't going to happen. Sorry. And your chamber/barrel will not get as hot as a torch.
One of us has misunderstood him, and I believe it to be you, CC.
I believe he meant that occasionally you would find in lots (as in lot XYZ, lot YXZ, not 'many') of old green lacquer coated WOLF that it would not be applied uniformly at the factory. A drip could be found occasionally, and then the lacquer hardened with that drip. I do NOT believe he meant that the old lacquer cases would occasionally melt in his chamber.
Wolf doesn't make anything. Their a company that imports ammunition (usually Russian) and sells it under the Wolf name. Wolf Performance Ammunition in the black box was coming from Tula. Wolf Military Classic was made by Ulyanovsk. I believe Wolf is now also selling Barnaul manufactured ammunition packaged as Wolf WPA.
Oh thats right. I got it mixed up. Thank you.
christcorp
02-09-11, 19:32
One of us has misunderstood him, and I believe it to be you, CC.
I believe he meant that occasionally you would find in lots (as in lot XYZ, lot YXZ, not 'many') of old green lacquer coated WOLF that it would not be applied uniformly at the factory. A drip could be found occasionally, and then the lacquer hardened with that drip. I do NOT believe he meant that the old lacquer cases would occasionally melt in his chamber.
It's possible that I misunderstood "HIM"; however, the idea that old lacquer cases would occasionally melt in the chamber, is EXACTLY what most people who misunderstand "Sticking Cases" thinks. They think the lacquer or polymer, actually melts off the cases, and makes the chamber sticky. Maybe Bolt didn't mean this, but you could understand my misunderstanding him; considering that is one of the biggest myths about russian steel case ammunition there is. But I concede that he may not have been speaking of what most people speak of when it comes to dripping lacquer.
That video was so good I subscribed to your channel and am about to go through your other videos. I'm also sending a link to the video to a couple local gun shop owners. They know Wolf is fine, but it will give them better explanations for the issues some have with it. I know I learned a thing or three watching it.
It's possible that I misunderstood "HIM"; however, the idea that old lacquer cases would occasionally melt in the chamber, is EXACTLY what most people who misunderstand "Sticking Cases" thinks. They think the lacquer or polymer, actually melts off the cases, and makes the chamber sticky. Maybe Bolt didn't mean this, but you could understand my misunderstanding him; considering that is one of the biggest myths about russian steel case ammunition there is. But I concede that he may not have been speaking of what most people speak of when it comes to dripping lacquer.
I got what he was saying as well: I've seen plenty of fresh out of the box lacquer cases with a big old drip hardened to the outside.
I went ahead and shot them anyway, they appeared to work fine. Don't know by how much they altered the case dimensions, but it didn't appear to bother function.
RogerinTPA
02-09-11, 21:44
I got what he was saying as well: I've seen plenty of fresh out of the box lacquer cases with a big old drip hardened to the outside.
I went ahead and shot them anyway, they appeared to work fine. Don't know by how much they altered the case dimensions, but it didn't appear to bother function.
Agreed. I had the same observations. Initially, I thought the sloppy application would induce stuck cases, but I have not had any problems what so ever with green lacquered steel case ammo (Brown Bear, Barnaul, or the old Wolf).
Went to a gravel pit with a police officer buddy and his 16" M-4 style carbine yesterday. He found a box of Wolf 62gr lying in the bottom of his PU tool box that had gotten wet who-knows-when and the ammo was pretty rusty. He was going to throw it away, but I talked him into letting me shoot it as an experiment (not my M-4 :D). Fired them rapid fire (2-3 shots per second), and supprisingly all 20 rounds went "bang" and hit the target with no malfunctions of any kind!
My main concern with Russian made ammo is not the coating on the cartridge itself but that its made with a bi-metal bullet. Is there enough copper covering the steel to protect the barrel from wear and having to replace the barrel sooner then you would with non bi-metal ammo. I own bottom tier AR (it was given to me to pay a debt and yes I have my Colt jar going) so I am not to worried about it but I don't want to have to replace parts on it sooner then what I need to. Does anyone have any experience with this.
PA PATRIOT
12-29-11, 16:04
The OP's link is dead does anyone else have that Wolf video?
MilitaryArms
12-29-11, 16:06
Here's the new link. I had to reupload the video because the original used copyrighted music in the intro. It's an old video, before I became a partner on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960
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