AAR for the Vickers Battle Rifle Class 1-2 Sept. 07

[TOrrock]

Great class! I enjoyed it and got a lot out of it.

Before decent surplus 7.62 NATO ammo got stupidly expensive, it was the caliber I shot the most. I really enjoy the "manly rifles".

Great personal instruction from Larry Vickers and David P. We had a great group of really switched on guys.

We had a close ratio between FAL's and M14's (M1A), with one guy bringing out a M1 Garand, and one shooter using his FAL for the first day and his PTR-91(G3 clone) for the second day.

Thoughts....

The class confirmed a lot of what I already thought, that of the "Big Three" (M14, FAL, G3), the FAL takes top prize as the best all around battle rifle. The M14 takes a pretty close second place. The safety position and manipulation of the M14 sucks. The lack of decent mounting options for optics holds the M14 back as well.

The G3 system, while reliable, has worse ergonomics than an AK, and pushes the shooter around more under recoil compared to either the M14 or the FAL.

Generally, FAL triggers suck, and there isn't alot to be done about it for now. FAL's really should have the full length gas system that they were designed for, and really shouldn't have barrels less than 16".

A decent sling is a MUST. No two ways around it, you've got to have a decent sling that will allow you to transition to your handgun or to your off shoulder in as little time as possible and with as little fuss as possible.

No one brought out an AR variant in 7.62 NATO, which I was hoping someone would.

One shooter brought out a DSA OSW with an 11" barrel. While that little beastie sure was cool, it was having some serious reliablity problems. Another shooter brought out an 18" M1A dressed out in a SAGE stock, it was a cool motor scooter for sure.

I used a DSA StG-58STD as my primary. I picked the rifle up the day before, sighted it in, and swapped out the handguards for a set of non bipod cut Rhodesian ones, and swapped the buttstock for a German/Rhodesian/South African walnut stock. The heavy Stoll flash suppressor was replaced with a standard Belgian type and the bipod was taken off. Basically I turned it into a Rhodesian/South African R1 clone.

The rifle performed flawlessly for the entire course with the exception of the very last exercise where it was taken out of action by some very bad ammo that another shooter brought, and a brain fart on my part for using it.

I know that 7.62 NATO ammo prices are stupidly expensive now, but these are expensive rifles.....don't feed them crap.

Shooting a box drill with full power battle rifles will definitely seperate the men from the boys......these are heavier recoiling rifles that make getting quick follow up shots much more difficult compared to a 5.56mm carbine.

I had my father take this class as a retirement present. He'd never done anything like this, but he learned a lot and had a great time. He took a way a set of skills that he will definitely be working on. I can't thank Larry Vickers, David P., and the guys in the class enough for helping him out and making him feel welcome. Thank you.

Here are some pics. Unfortunately I didn't get an opportunity to take many, I was just too busy shooting...

High resolution 2 meg pics can be found here:

Day 1: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Battle%20Rifle%20Class%209-01-07/Day%201%20Full%20Size/

Day 2: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Battle%20Rifle%20Class%209-01-07/Day%202%20Full%20Size/


Day 1:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Battle%20Rifle%20Class%209-01-07/Day%201/DSC00196.jpg

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Target was the itty-bitty steel in the middle, between the silhouettes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Battle%20Rifle%20Class%209-01-07/Day%201/DSC00210.jpg

A little off shoulder action:

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Battle%20Rifle%20Class%209-01-07/Day%201/DSC00223.jpg

[TOrrock]

Day 2:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Battle%20Rifle%20Class%209-01-07/Day%202/DSC00225B.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Battle%20Rifle%20Class%209-01-07/Day%202/DSC00226B.jpg

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[Jay Cunningham]

Great AAR and pics! This was one of those classes that I was hoping I could attend, but finances and time forced me to choose between "nice to have" (this class) and "must have" (Hack/Vick Night/LL).

HAD I taken this class, I would have used my 16" DSA FAL, which looks like a good choice. Mine is blessed with a pretty decent trigger.

I can imagine that there were probably some gear issues, since items are not as specialized/optimized as AR stuff. How did the reloads go for the FAL?

Too bad nobody showed up with a .308 Saiga conversion - I bet Larry would have gone bannanas!

p.s. which rifle did your Pops shoot?

[John_Wayne777]

Funny how the FAL starts to have issues when you chop it too short and start to do weird stuff just like the AR does....

I guess there is a lesson in that somewhere....

Looks like a fun class. I wish I could have attended with my Garand.

[TOrrock]

We missed you guys, seriously.

My father is the guy with the beard, red ear muffs, blue T shirt and BDU pants, shooting a Springfield M1A. The M1A was built up for me by the guys at Springfield after the original one decided to shit the bed and the barrel unscrewed from the receiver under fire. It's now all GI with the exception of the receiver. The barrel was a new-never issued TRW. The customer service/repair guys at Springfield took care of me. My father now has a Vickers sling, which he desperately needed.

Mag changes on the FAL were a non issue for me because of my familiarity with the system, it's easier than an AK. For guys coming in off of the AR system, remembering to rock them in is the key, same with the M14 and the G3 though.

If I still had my Galil in 7.62 I would have brought that too....:D

[blackscot]

Pretty cool Tim. Glad you and your dad could share this.:D

[John_Wayne777]

Larry promised to bring some exotic toys.....

What did he bring? Do you have pics of them? Why have said pics not been posted yet?

Help us poor bastards who are trying to live vicariously here!

[tugsus]

Very curious.

How did the Garand do out there?

[VA_Dinger]

Another outstanding Vickers Tactical class completed. Thanks Templar for the great review and for posting pictures.

FYI- this is now a standard Vickers Tactical course and will be offered again in South Hill (2008) or any adequate range if you would like to host a class at your location.

Just contact Larry through the VT website (www.vickerstactical.com) or shoot me an email/PM.

[SHIVAN]

As soon as I get my shoulder and arm issues sorted out I will be there with an SBR AR-10.....

Putting off surgery at the moment and I didn't think 1,000rds of 7.62x51 would be good for an injured shoulder.

Looked like fun though. :p

[TOrrock]

Very curious.

How did the Garand do out there?

Actually........really well. He won several of the accuracy drills we had with iron sights.



The final round count was just under 500 rounds over two days.

I'd definitely add a broken case extraction tool to your kit, without it, I'd have been screwed.

The round that case failure was Chilean surplus, definitely something to stay away from. I'd also stay away from the Indian surplus as well.

Shivan, hope you can make it next year, it was a blast.

J_W777, Larry didn't bring anything out, he just tortured me with tales of his recent purchases..........:( ;)

[wlptpd3]

I just want to say that this was my first experience with Larry Vickers and I can guarantee it will not be my last. Vickers and his A.I. David P. know their stuff. The class started with a safety brief and then everyone verified their 25 yard zero and we moved on from there. Larry gave his insight about the different rifles used in the class and pointed out the strengths and weaknesses of each system. The mix was about even between FN FAL and M1-A variants. We even had one shooter with an M-1 Garand.

The rifle I used was an STG-58 parts kit that I had purchased several years ago and I had it assembled by my local gunsmith, I had the barrel cut back to 18" in this format it seemed to handle better than the factory barrel length for me. I used south African .308 ammo from 140 round battle packs without any ammunition related problems all weekend.

Over the two days we worked on transitions, malfunction clearance, distance shooting and we did box drills and snake drills. Larry is very accuracy oriented therefore we worked on pistol trigger control drills just prior to transitions. Believe me trigger control is the root of all evil. If you can't control a pistol trigger you will not be able to control the trigger of a long gun either. I know because I committed " El Snatcho " several times.

Training like this is awesome because it truly exposes your weaknesses, I for one learned that I really need work on my distance shooting. When we train we tend to train the things we do well and not the things that actually get us out of our own comfort zone. The students in this class were great and I really enjoyed the group dinner at the end of the first training day.

Just listening to Larry speak on the subject matter was more than worth the price of the class and the prizes awarded to the shooters at the conclusion of the class were awesome. This class was definitely worth the 8 hour drive it took to arrive in South Hill. If anyone is thinking about taking a class from Vickers Tactical in the future, don't wait sign up and attend. I guarantee you will come away from it with a much better understanding of your weapon system and your abilities as a shooter.

[John_Wayne777]

J_W777, Larry didn't bring anything out, he just tortured me with tales of his recent purchases..........:( ;)

That's just.....wrong.....so very wrong.....

[scottandt]

I agree, mag chages with the FAL are not a big deal but with the G3 they are a handful. I know one of the guys at the class who used to work at H&K said they got to the point where they could do them in 5 seconds which is impressive. The front slimline handguards on the G3 also get very hot very quick. Even with a glove on after 5 or 10 quick rounds the rifle was getting uncomfortable to hold. I can't imagine what it would be like after 10 or 20. Recoil is certainly greater in the G3 compared to the FAL, the PTR-91 I had with the heavy barrel is also heavy and after a day of lugging it around I was ready for a break. The collapable stock on the G3 was worthless , it is much easier to shoot with a full stock, thanks to Templar for helping me out with that.

The FAL was great to work with and except for CQB stuff I think it still has a lot of advantages over the AR/M4 series. I think DSA has some serious issues to deal with with their 11 inch version as it had some major reliability problems.

I wonder how many AD's there have been over the years due to the poor safety configuration of the Garand/M14 rifles. The US would have been better off to have adopted the FAL.

A good tactical sling is a must but slings are still a pain to deal with regardless.

Overall another great Vickers class, a lot of great shooting and a lot was learned. Looking forward to the next Vickers/South Hill class.




"Mag changes on the FAL were a non issue for me because of my familiarity with the system, it's easier than an AK. For guys coming in off of the AR system, remembering to rock them in is the key, same with the M14 and the G3 though."

If I still had my Galil in 7.62 I would have brought that too....:D

[ron556]

once again, vickers tactical does not disappoint. this was an excellent class and i took a lot home with me for this one.

i'm the guy that brought the "11 angry inches of FAL." it suffered greatly and was a considerable disappointment, particularly on the second day of the course. after several failures to extract, i had to hang it up and go to plan B. needless to say, DSA technical support received a detailed e.mail re: the performance of their OSW at a vickers tactical rifle class. i did leave out the part that had me getting a prize for the "most malfunctioning rifle." :) we'll see what they have to say.

other than that, i'd say that this class was a great success. although 7.62 is expensive, it is a small price to pay for the level of instruction garnished from larry and dave. i took the AK class at the beginning of the summer and my shooting had markedly improved by the time i stepped up to the "big boy" gun this past weekend.

my distance shooting greatly improved as did my short range stuff. though the 100-yd. scrambler was a definite challenge, it was well worth the difficulty. "if you ain't training out of your comfort zone, you ain't learning sh*t." truer words could not have been spoken; it became a sort of mantra for the rest of the class.

it was also a good bunch of guys. as in the past, i felt very comfortable with everyone's level of competence. everyone was there to learn and had great attitudes. instruction was first rate and i learned quite a bit while reinforcing other lessons that have been tucked away from past training.

of course, it is always good to train alongside templar [and this time, templar sr.]. he is a veritable fountain of knowledge in all things that go "bang." his technical and historical expertise is always greatly appreciated.

i look forward to other vickers tactical classes coming in 2008 here in VA; if anyone has a remote chance to train with LAV, you need to do it; it is well worth the [very reasonable] price of admission. you'll be glad you did.

thanks again to paul for putting this together. good work, bro + thanks. i'll remember to check the forum before i head out to train four hours early. :D

[TOrrock]

Ron, without that broken shell extractor, I would have been well and truely screwed.

I just ordered one from DSA. :cool:

Thank you sir. Even with the 11 angry inches right next to me, it was a pleasure to train with you.

[MaceWindu]

I wonder how many AD's there have been over the years due to the poor safety configuration of the Garand/M14 rifles. The US would have been better off to have adopted the FAL.


I would disagree! My Fulton/ M14 Bush runz...proper training will solve the safety manipulation issue...


Mace

[m4fun]

I carried a full M1a, and talk about a handful for cqb/shooting on the move stuff! I learned that no matter how strong and hard you train, somethings can still be a handful, especially given I am 5"6". I think I smoked on the long distance and accuracy drill but less than optimum on the move(and as Larry repeated about a dozen times, the M1a might be great at 500yds at Camp Perry, but engaging targets up close and while moving with that peep sight sucks). The .308 pushed me around!

P.S. - I did not have any, but Optics rule!!!

I need more transitional training to pistol - and hold my pistol correctly for these times(support finger on trigger-guard of the Beretta had Larry calling me Martin Riggs - Lethal Weapon ref) What is sad is that I normally dont hold it that way, but not "training in your comfort zone" got me there. Thanks guys for modernizing my holster!

When it comes right down to it, this course was about fun with rifles of yesteryear away from what we all play with today. That said the course was eye opening, in my opinion how much more modern the black rifle really is. From erganomics, to control, etc. Sure it cant shoot through trees, but geeze!

Larry, David - look forward to taking classes with you guys in the future, remember, I get $1 off the tactical pistol class.

Templar, sorry again about the Chilean ammo - I just knew if wasn't as accurate as my Hirtenberger and was Beridan primed, so good cheap range ammo I will not be crying about loosing the brass. Never heard the bad stuff you had nor experience that wonderful exercise in weapon clearing you had...;)

[Jay Cunningham]

support finger on trigger-guard of the Beretta had Larry calling me Martin Riggs

lol!!

[ErnieB]

I want Larry's FAL with the Short Dot!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Grin Reaper]

Tactical Garands -- it just seems right!

[TOrrock]

support finger on trigger-guard of the Beretta had Larry calling me Martin Riggs


lol!!

"There were only 5, maybe 6 guys who could have made that shot......." :D

[ron556]

"… 1,000 yards in high wind…"

[Luke]

I had a great time at the class. Larry and Dave did a terrific job sharing lessons. The other members of the class were a real pleasure to spend the weekend with and were a great source of information as well.

Dinner on Saturday night was excellent. I learned a ton. Thanks to Templar for the pics.

All in all an excellent weekend. While shooting <500 rounds, any more would have been just shooting for the sake of shooting. Larry and Dave taught the lessons needed with the time available without burning up ammo needlessly.

With the cost of admission and the modest amount of ammo used, the class turned out to be a bargain. I hope we can do it again.