View Full Version : New build...criticize it to death! Want it perfect
Spike's Tactical stripped lower
Daniel Defense LPK
BCM stock/receiver extension assembly w/H buffer
Magpul CTR buttstock
Hippies SLAP endplate
Magpul MIAD grip
Magpul MOE enhanced trigger guard
BCM 16" midlength lightweight complete upper
BCM M16 bolt carrier group
BCM gunfighter charging handle
Daniel Defense Omega 9.0 Free Float Handguards
or possibly lite rail 12.0FSPM. Help me choose.
Daniel Defense fixed rear sight
Aimpoint T-1 red dot sight
Larue Tactical LT660 mount
This is my fourth ar and I really want it to be perfect. I no ar can be perfect for everything and that's why I'll continue to buy more but just looking for suggestions
Militant83
02-07-11, 13:27
Looks like a pretty solid build. Id go with the 12" dd lite rail. I think the 12" rail looks better than a 9" on a 16" barrel. And it gives you a bit more room if you decide to add some extra toys later on.
jasonhgross
02-07-11, 13:33
Have you considered a collapsible front sight and going with a 12" DD RIS II or DD 12 Lite rail. I love this combo and I find it saves a little weight up front.
PrivateCitizen
02-07-11, 13:53
Not to be a prat about it … but 'perfect' is going to be something only you can discern.
Your list of components is fine enough but as to whether or not is it is 'perfect' really has a lot more to do with how you shoot it, where, etc etc etc.
Parts are parts, practice is proof.
I can't really critique your project because I'm a newbie. What do you reckon is the cost of your build without the accessories, just the basic rifle?
Thanks.
Spike's Tactical stripped lower
Daniel Defense LPK
BCM stock/receiver extension assembly w/H buffer
Magpul CTR buttstock
Hippies SLAP endplate
Magpul MIAD grip
Magpul MOE enhanced trigger guard
BCM 16" midlength lightweight complete upper
BCM M16 bolt carrier group
BCM gunfighter charging handle
Daniel Defense Omega 9.0 Free Float Handguards
or possibly lite rail 12.0FSPM. Help me choose.
Daniel Defense fixed rear sight
Aimpoint T-1 red dot sight
Larue Tactical LT660 mount
This is my fourth ar and I really want it to be perfect. I no ar can be perfect for everything and that's why I'll continue to buy more but just looking for suggestions
Yes I know there is no perfect AR and that's why I will keep buying/assembling more.
To all those who suggested the 12" rails, would it make the ar too front heavy? I'm not too comfortable chopping off my front sights to make it low profile and don't want to use a low profile gas block as they wouldn't be pinned. Only rail I know of that would accommodate the FSP is the DD Lite Rail FSPM and would kind of be worthless to me if it wasn't increasing my sight radius at all. What do you guys think?
Dionysusigma
02-07-11, 15:09
There is much in your build that I would never choose to put in my own rifle, but purely from a standpoint of preference. It's all quality stuff that will last, operate reliably and accurately, and I'm sure feels right to you, but as far as what I'd want out of my own rifles, I'd make vastly different choices.
^^Most critical kudos I can give. :D
jasonhgross
02-07-11, 15:14
Yes I know there is no perfect AR and that's why I will keep buying/assembling more.
To all those who suggested the 12" rails, would it make the ar too front heavy? I'm not too comfortable chopping off my front sights to make it low profile and don't want to use a low profile gas block as they wouldn't be pinned. Only rail I know of that would accommodate the FSP is the DD Lite Rail FSPM and would kind of be worthless to me if it wasn't increasing my sight radius at all. What do you guys think?
Aaah, didnt know you werent going completely new. Maybe specify what you have now and what you expect to get. I think the DD FSPM would be VERY heavy since you have the FSB and the longer rail on top of it. This combo would be too front heavy for me. After trying a lightweight barrel and 12" rail I sold off two uppers (one a colt the other BCM) to go with two uppers that were both light rail and 12" Thats how much I like the combo, but of course YMMV.
Spike's Tactical stripped lower
Daniel Defense LPK
BCM stock/receiver extension assembly w/H buffer
Magpul CTR buttstock
Hippies SLAP endplate
Magpul MIAD grip
Magpul MOE enhanced trigger guard
BCM 16" midlength lightweight complete upper
BCM M16 bolt carrier group
BCM gunfighter charging handle
Daniel Defense Omega 9.0 Free Float Handguards
or possibly lite rail 12.0FSPM. Help me choose.
Daniel Defense fixed rear sight
Aimpoint T-1 red dot sight
Larue Tactical LT660 mount
This is my fourth ar and I really want it to be perfect. I no ar can be perfect for everything and that's why I'll continue to buy more but just looking for suggestions
Solid build. Not MY perfect build, but very solid. Like others have mentioned, only you can determine your definition of "perfect."
IF it were MY build I would go with the following:
* Standard or Noveske QD receiver end-plate.
* LMT SOPMOD stock or VLTOR IMOD.
* Perhaps a Troy flip-BUIS? Although, the DD is excellent.
* ADM T1-SOCOM mount - I'm quickly becoming a fan of their T1 mounts. My other T1s will wear them or the DD non-detachable.
Why the rail system?
What are your other ARs not doing that you need them to?
What is your intended application?
I want this to be a 3 gun rifle and good general purpose rifle while also serving as a shtf/HD/range fun. I know this sounds like a lot in one rifle, but my family is forcing me to shrink my gun collection down so I am selling or have sold my other ar's. Keeping one AR, one pocket pistol, one compact pistol, one full size pistol, one shotgun, and one plinker 22lr pistol. My gun collection, especially my AR collection has gotten a little out of hand and most of them were first project builds that weren't so ideal.
Here is a bit of input, but not criticism.
The BCM lightweight is a button rifled barrel, according to what I have read. If you get a Daniel Defense lightweight barrel it will cold hammer forged.
The lower is purely a matter of stylistic preference, as any lower will work. However, some people roll their eyes at Spikes because of past marketing practices. If you get another roll mark on your lower, it could improve subjective perception of the whole rifle. (Noveske, BCM, etc.)
The handguard tends to offset the weight savings of the ltwt bbl. Have you considered the Troy Extreme handguard?
Is there any way I can buy a new BCM upper with a pinned low profile gas block that is not a hack job? Im wanting to spend about $900 total minus optics. Luckily I already have the lower assembled. I also do not have the proper tools to torque a barrel if I were to install new free float handguards. This is the primary reason I was considering the DD Omega rail.
Is there any way I can buy a new BCM upper with a pinned low profile gas block that is not a hack job? Im wanting to spend about $900 total minus optics. Luckily I already have the lower assembled. I also do not have the proper tools to torque a barrel if I were to install new free float handguards. This is the primary reason I was considering the DD Omega rail.
Hey, just a heads up Daniel Defense has "pinned" low pro gas blocks on there barrels..... https://danieldefense.com/cold-hammer-forged-barrels.html?barrel_configuration=12
A suggestion.
Skip the FF rail altogether. I bet that if you do that, and instead invest in ammo, magazines, and training, you won't miss it one bit.
I'm having trouble with BCM's site at the moment, but take a look at this article (http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/25301.html).
BCM seems to be working again
$399 BCM Standard 16" Mid Length Upper Receiver Group (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm)
$140 BCM Bolt Carrier Group (MPI) - Auto (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm)
$23 BCM AR15 Charging Handle (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Charging-Handle-BCM-p/bcm%20charging%20handle%20ar15.htm)
$20 Mid-length Handguard (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Mid-Length-Handguards-Black-p/handguards%20mid%20length%20black.htm)
$360 BCM Lower Receiver Group w/ M4 Stock Body (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-M4-AR15-s/117.htm)
$942 total. You'll need a rear sight that can range from $50 to $150.
Optional upgrades would be going all MOE furniture instead of the A2/M4 furniture in the above. You'd get a $40 credit and add back in another ~$100 to purchase all the MOE kit.
Similar budget gun. Mid-length MOE didn't exist at the time.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_3277-800.jpg
BCM seems to be working again
$399 BCM Standard 16" Mid Length Upper Receiver Group (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm)
$140 BCM Bolt Carrier Group (MPI) - Auto (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm)
$23 BCM AR15 Charging Handle (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Charging-Handle-BCM-p/bcm%20charging%20handle%20ar15.htm)
$20 Mid-length Handguard (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Mid-Length-Handguards-Black-p/handguards%20mid%20length%20black.htm)
$360 BCM Lower Receiver Group w/ M4 Stock Body (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-M4-AR15-s/117.htm)
$942 total. You'll need a rear sight that can range from $50 to $150.
Optional upgrades would be going all MOE furniture instead of the A2/M4 furniture in the above. You'd get a $40 credit and add back in another ~$100 to purchase all the MOE kit.
Similar budget gun. Mid-length MOE didn't exist at the time.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/IMG_3277-800.jpg
Thanks for all your help rob. I've decided on my final parts list after reevaluating what I need from this gun.
Spike's Tactical stripped lower - already have
Daniel Defense LPK - already have
BCM stock/receiver extension assembly w/H buffer - already have
Magpul MOE buttstock - already have
Daniel Defense QD rear sling mount
Magpul MOE grip - already have
Magpul MIAD enhanced trigger guard
BCM 16" midlength lightweight complete upper w/cold hammer forged barrel
BCM M16 bolt carrier group
BCM gunfighter charging handle
Daniel Defense Omega 9.0 Free Float Handguards
Troy Industries Rear Folding BUIS
Aimpoint T-1 red dot sight
Larue Tactical LT660 mount
The Omega handguard is the only part I'd change. A FF handguard isn't a must-own, but the slick handguards are lighter, and that overall setup can be far superior.
You can get a 9" TROY or TROY/VTAC handguard (or go longer and run a DD Fixed Front Sight) and be ahead on weight, and still not add much cost.
Everything else there is on point - as far as I can tell - I don't know the mission that rifle is intended for, but that will handle most anything.
PieceKeeper
02-09-11, 00:45
I think you've got a great plan going there.
If you're set on going the Aimpoint micro route, you could save a little coin by getting an H1 instead of a T1.
I still don't understand why you're using a free-float rail. It's an added expense, complexity, and in the case of the one you're choosing there is some added weight too.
You have the MOE grip and MOE stock so why not the MOE handguard?
and I agree with the above re: the H-1 over the T-1. In fact, I prefer the H-1 and don't consider it strictly a matter of cost as the invisible settings of the T-1 are wholly useless without NV.
To all those who suggested the 12" rails, would it make the ar too front heavy?Not with a LW barrel. I love my 12FSPM rail, it allows for a really aggressive forward grip and the rifle is very light and handy.
To those talking about how "heavy" it is...by the time you subtract out the barrel nut, and the handguard cap (whatever it's called), it is about 11-12oz, or ~ 2 oz heavier than an MOE handuard. A lot of rail for 2oz extra IMO.
They are spendy, but I got mine for really cheap as part of the Smartgunner DD upper deal.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n122/bstrambo/guns/DSCN1667.jpg
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n122/bstrambo/guns/DSCN1683.jpg
The weight of rail systems is something I'm pretty familiar with. The particular rail in question is heavier than others on the market, in part because it retains all of the stock handguard hardware. Additionally while it's easy to point at rail+mount vs. handguard+hardware, that's not where the weight issue ends. First there is the issue of covering the rails to protect one's hands, adding weight. Then you have the issue whereby rails attract accessories like shit attracts flies for some people, and often without the person really understanding why they're attaching those accessories or how to utilize them properly.
Additionally, given the ease of installation of the Omega, and the relative low cost of the MOE, it makes a lot of sense to simply install the MOE to start with and see if you exceed it's capabilities. The MOE will be lighter, less expensive, less complicated, and I'll bet will meet all of the OP's requirements. and if one doesn't even know what one might attach to the rail to begin with...
Comparison Chart of FF Rail Systems (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0Ajl2UPK0UHPscHdzd2hlZ2hOUXNGblVaTWtaTkYyRFE&hl=en&output=html)
I was primarily going for the rails because the aesthetics. However, now that the new midlength MOE handguards are out, I don't think they look as bad as the carbine MOE handguards and am now considering them. Really value your opinion here rob. Considering the H-1 but wanted to get the T-1 in case I ever get night vision gear. Not highly likely but maybe somewhat likely? Saw a video on a lightweight barrel melting and was wondering if I should be worried at all. Just go lightweight? I'm sure I'll never be emptying out more than 10 magazine at once.
Melting?
I will say this, and it's something similar to what I just said elsewhere on this site last week...
There are a lot of people out there that buy this or that based on what they *might* do, *maybe*, in some conceptual, theoretical, future. There is no reason to plan for full auto mag dumps of $1/round ammo through a can wearing NODs. The truth is that if those things are not in your reality today they are unlikely to be in your reality down the road. You are much better off planning for what you know you need now than what you might maybe need later.
Melting?
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
This.
PieceKeeper
02-09-11, 12:21
If that's the case, are you planning on going full auto for more than a reasonable period of time? That really isn't what this rifle was designed to do in the first place. It's not a "machine gun". If you're going to have to shoot that fast you're likely not going to make it anyway.
A good number of guys here shoot a lot of rounds down range and never have a problem with their barrels.
Why a free float if youre going with just a Aimpoint T-1?
I probably shouldn't have posted that video because I feel like I'm gonna get chewed by someone. :agree: I think I'll go light weight. Even thinking about a 14.5" upper with permanent flash hider. Here is my revised list. I hate making decision. Especially with such a limited amount of money.
SPIKE'S TACTICAL STRIPPED LOWER - already have
DANIEL DEFENSE LPK - already have
BCM STOCK/RECEIVER EXTENSION ASSEMBLY W/H BUFFER - already have
MAGPUL MOE BUTTSTOCK - already have
DANIEL DEFENSE QD SLING ENDPLATE - $35
MAGPUL MOE GRIP - already have
MAGPUL MIAD ENHANCED TRIGGER GUARD - already have
BCM 14.5" MIDLENGTH LIGHTWEIGHT BFH COMPLETE UPPER - $535
BCM M16 BOLT CARRIER GROUP W/STANDARD CHARGING HANDLE - $135
MAGPUL MOE MIDLENGTH HANDGUARDS - $35
TROY FOLDING BUIS - already have
AIMPOINT H-1 - $470
LARUE TACTICAL LT-660 MOUNT - $100
I have almost all of the components for the lower now. I will probably get it assembled and post some pics next week.
I would not suggest a 14.5" with pinned device for an only/first AR. While I don't think you need one, and certainly don't need one now, if you decide you want a free-float rail or tube later on down the road, having a pinned-in-place muzzle device will limit your options.
I would not suggest a 14.5" with pinned device for an only/first AR. While I don't think you need one, and certainly don't need one now, if you decide you want a free-float rail or tube later on down the road, having a pinned-in-place muzzle device will limit your options.
That would be a problem. I will stick to the 16" then. What is your opinion on the lightweight cold hammer forged? Should I just go government profile cold hammer forged or just plain old government profile and skip the cold hammer forged? This thread is getting longer than I thought it would be but I really am appreciating all the help. I have nobody around me to give me quality opinions.
walter34payton2002
02-09-11, 13:19
Looks like a pretty solid build. Id go with the 12" dd lite rail. I think the 12" rail looks better than a 9" on a 16" barrel. And it gives you a bit more room if you decide to add some extra toys later on.
No offense, but I think looks should have zero weight when considering an accessory for a defensive firearm. Need and function should take precedent.
I am *personally* not sold on the benefits of the CHF, but I don't think there is a downside other than cost. Some of your choices that you've moved away from have repercussions other than cost (more clicks than you need with the T-1, added weight and complexity with a rail system, etc.) but the only downside I can think of to the CHF is cost, so if it fits in your budget you might as well.
As to govt. profile vs. lightweight, I'm a lightweight fan personally, but shot a govt. profile BCM mid-length for quite some time because the lightweight wasn't out yet.
walter34payton2002
02-09-11, 13:32
I probably shouldn't have posted that video because I feel like I'm gonna get chewed by someone. :agree: I think I'll go light weight. Even thinking about a 14.5" upper with permanent flash hider. Here is my revised list. I hate making decision. Especially with such a limited amount of money.
SPIKE'S TACTICAL STRIPPED LOWER - already have
DANIEL DEFENSE LPK - already have
BCM STOCK/RECEIVER EXTENSION ASSEMBLY W/H BUFFER - already have
MAGPUL MOE BUTTSTOCK - already have
DANIEL DEFENSE QD SLING ENDPLATE - $35
MAGPUL MOE GRIP - already have
MAGPUL MIAD ENHANCED TRIGGER GUARD - already have
BCM 14.5" MIDLENGTH LIGHTWEIGHT BFH COMPLETE UPPER - $535
BCM M16 BOLT CARRIER GROUP W/STANDARD CHARGING HANDLE - $135
MAGPUL MOE MIDLENGTH HANDGUARDS - $35
TROY FOLDING BUIS - already have
AIMPOINT H-1 - $470
LARUE TACTICAL LT-660 MOUNT - $100
I have almost all of the components for the lower now. I will probably get it assembled and post some pics next week.
On a 14.5 inch w/ pinned MD......I never understood that. You get the worst of both worlds- worse ballistics and no full auto. 16 makes sense to me.
I still don't understand why you're using a free-float rail. It's an added expense, complexity, and in the case of the one you're choosing there is some added weight too..
This is a big pet peeve of mine. Why do people buy FF or RIFLE length FF's at that when they mount Eotech or Aimpoint? I understand it helps with harmonics and accuracy at longer ranges, but the Aimpoint cancels that out. Unless you have Lee Major's eyesight :secret:
NI NI NI NI NI NI NI NI (the sound he makes when jumping)
This is a big pet peeve of mine. Why do people buy FF or RIFLE length FF's at that when they mount Eotech or Aimpoint?For attributes the rail brings to the table aside from the fact it's free-floated? I got mine for the extra room to mount my light further forward, couldn't care less if it is FF, but I don't see how they could have designed it any other way...
Anyone who wants extra gripping room will end up with a ff handguard of some sort unless they have a rifle length gas system.
On a 14.5 inch w/ pinned MD......I never understood that. You get the worst of both worlds- worse ballistics and no full auto.Shortest possible OAL and lightest possible barrel weight...w/o spending another $200 (plus engraving costs) and waiting a few months. It certainly has downsides that make the relative merits vs. a 16" well worth considering. The velocity decrease isn't a factor for my intended max effective range of the carbine (0-300m), I was OK with the velocity of my M4 in Afghanistan also. For me it was flip-a-coin, but I already have a 16" and an SBR, don't see a need to ever change the rail and won't shoot this rifle as much as my other setups.
Only rifle, yeah a 16" LW barrel makes good sense.
There is a common misconception that free-float rails on ARs are installed for the same reason, and only the same reason, bolt-action rifles are bedded and free-floated in their stocks.
I suggest the MOE not because there is simply no advantage to a free-float rail system on an RDS-equipped AR, but because I think the OK will be better served in the short term by the MOE, and with the relatively low cost he won't be out anything at all if he decides he needs more.
While I'd agree that a FF handguard is of minimal value in a short range defensive carbine, some of the lighter options (i.e. TROY Extreme, DD Lite) can actually shave a small amount of weight and provide solid mounting options for a weaponlight.
That said, the MOE handguard with the current mounting options fills the same role for less money - but I happen to be a huge fan of a bare VTAC-TROY Extreme rails, because of their light weight.
walter34payton2002
02-10-11, 11:33
Shortest possible OAL and lightest possible barrel weight...w/o spending another $200 (plus engraving costs) and waiting a few months. It certainly has downsides that make the relative merits vs. a 16" well worth considering. The velocity decrease isn't a factor for my intended max effective range of the carbine (0-300m), I was OK with the velocity of my M4 in Afghanistan also. For me it was flip-a-coin, but I already have a 16" and an SBR, don't see a need to ever change the rail and won't shoot this rifle as much as my other setups.
Only rifle, yeah a 16" LW barrel makes good sense.
Correct me if I am wrong, but at 300m with a 14.5 inch barrel, the bullet will have insufficient velocity to achieve the terminal performance of the cannelure fragmenting, splitting, or rotating to create a larger wound channel. Furthermore, the way I understand it is that for distances greater than 100 yards, with a 14.5 inch barrel, it will not be able to produce sufficient muzzle velocity (shooting m193 or m855) to gain maximum ballistics. I believe for greater than 100 yards, one should employ 16.5 in. or greater to ensure sufficient muzzle velocity. Someone can help me here, but when the bullet drops below a certain velocity, it just behaves as any FMJ would. I think I read years ago it was 2700ish, I don't remember. Anyway, I am sure someone else can chime in here, but in this original poster's use, if he wants to defensively shoot at close range a shotgun may make more sense. In my opinion a 16 inch barrel will allow for longer range with maximum ballistics over a greater range than the 14.5 barrel built for close range.
Basically you are off mark. Guess how many muj and hajjis have been smoked by U.S military personnel at distances beyond 100M using the M4?
I also know an SF soldier that whacked two muj at 600M and 800M using Black Hills Mk 262 MOD 1 ammo using a 14.5" M4.
I'll guarantee you will not want to be standing down range if someone pops you with an M855 round at 300M with an M4.
Correct me if I am wrong, but at 300m with a 14.5 inch barrel, the bullet will have insufficient velocity to achieve the terminal performance of the cannelure fragmenting, splitting, or rotating to create a larger wound channel. Furthermore, the way I understand it is that for distances greater than 100 yards, with a 14.5 inch barrel, it will not be able to produce sufficient muzzle velocity (shooting m193 or m855) to gain maximum ballistics. I believe for greater than 100 yards, one should employ 16.5 in. or greater to ensure sufficient muzzle velocity. Someone can help me here, but when the bullet drops below a certain velocity, it just behaves as any FMJ would. I think I read years ago it was 2700ish, I don't remember. Anyway, I am sure someone else can chime in here, but in this original poster's use, if he wants to defensively shoot at close range a shotgun may make more sense. In my opinion a 16 inch barrel will allow for longer range with maximum ballistics over a greater range than the 14.5 barrel built for close range.
And how often are you concerned about fragmentation at 300 yards? Steel targets don't care about fragmentation.
walter34payton2002
02-10-11, 16:48
But isn't that different saying that a round can still kill you, but doesn't necessarily have the terminal ballistics as it would (fragmenting) at 2700 or so fps? I think at that distance from a 14.5 inch it would just behave as any FMJ. I don't doubt what your saying at all, but I think the terminal ballistics of a 14.5 are greatly diminished by definition when even compared to the 16 inch. Granted it is all a trade off for what you need. M193 penetrates better than m855 at up to 200m because of velocity, after that point the heavier bullet will have an advantage. Anyway fragmentation is never guaranteed and shot placement counts too. "Black Hills Mk 262 MOD 1 ammo"- that's really good stuff.
walter34payton2002
02-10-11, 16:52
And how often are you concerned about fragmentation at 300 yards? Steel targets don't care about fragmentation.
I'm talking less than 100m. Anyway, just offering some of my knowledge as I understand it. Not debating whether or not you need anything shooting steel:).
It really comes down to what you think you want or need. For example- My SBR can reach out to 400 with 55gr. TAP. Even it were effective I don't see me ever shooting someone at that distance unless the world is ending.
What I can see is 75yds and under in which case mysuppressed 11.5" loaded with Hornady 75gr. TAP will probably be more than adequate.
But isn't that different saying that a round can still kill you, but doesn't necessarily have the terminal ballistics as it would (fragmenting) at 2700 or so fps? I think at that distance from a 14.5 inch it would just behave as any FMJ. I don't doubt what your saying at all, but I think the terminal ballistics of a 14.5 are greatly diminished by definition when even compared to the 16 inch. Granted it is all a trade off for what you need. M193 penetrates better than m855 at up to 200m because of velocity, after that point the heavier bullet will have an advantage. Anyway fragmentation is never guaranteed and shot placement counts too. "Black Hills Mk 262 MOD 1 ammo"- that's really good stuff.
walter34payton2002
02-10-11, 17:08
It really comes down to what you think you want or need. For example- My SBR can reach out to 400 with 55gr. TAP. Even it were effective I don't see me ever shooting someone at that distance unless the world is ending.
True. Thanks for sharing the story about the action in Iraq. Good to know.
But isn't that different saying that a round can still kill you, but doesn't necessarily have the terminal ballistics as it would (fragmenting) at 2700 or so fps? I think at that distance from a 14.5 inch it would just behave as any FMJ. You are correct...however: From a combat/defensive standpoint, the need for an immediate stop (instant incapacitation) decreases with distance. If he is across the room, I need him to drop right now (he may not anyway, but ideally I need him too), because he can immediately shoot and kill me.
As distance grows, their ability to affect you decreases. So, what are the odds of an enemy (or typical criminal) struck with a 5.56 at 100m being able to hit you after? At 200m? 300m? The max effective range of a typical un-injured insurgent w/ an AK seems to be about 50yds.
I've been shot at with RPGs and PKMs at ~400m...so wildly inaccurate I didn't even see any impacts at all, don't even know where the RPGs hit. So, if they are 100% ineffective at 400...how much less so after they get a hole drilled in 'em?
Unless it is a skilled (and tough), sniper, any hit at distance should take them out of the fight and make them a wounded burden on the rest of their element (if they care). Of course, ideally we could have it all, short OAL and loooong frag range, but compromises are always necessary.
Back to civilian use: for home defense so long as the frag range is longer than your largest indoor open space, and for SHTF, 90-100m should be plenty. For targets, completely irrelevant of course except for trajectory concerns.
It all comes back to the purpose of the carbine and the end user prioritizing factors based on that purpose. No right or wrong answer, for me, for HD, I would put a higher value on a short OAL, lighter weight and flash suppression than I would on velocity or convenience (like being able to switch FH and rails on a 16" vs. a pinned 14.5")
16" makes a lot of sense too, especially for a first AR as it is only 1.5" more and the first AR owner is a lot more likely to change something later. For a primarily range rifle or an all-around carbine, 16 would definitely be the way to go IMO.
"You're short, your bellybutton sticks out too far, and you're a terrible burden on your poor mother."
Hammertime
02-10-11, 21:27
All my SHTF ammo is M855 ball :)
OP - So did you finish building this rifle or not? If not, you need to take your time and make it right. Don't be all in a hurry and worried. Chill out and make some good decisions based on what you like, what you want, how much $$$ you've got, and what you're using it for. Good luck and good shooting.
Bryant
All my SHTF ammo is M855 ball :)
OP - So did you finish building this rifle or not? If not, you need to take your time and make it right. Don't be all in a hurry and worried. Chill out and make some good decisions based on what you like, what you want, how much $$$ you've got, and what you're using it for. Good luck and good shooting.
Bryant
All the parts for my lower are starting to trickle in and once I find some time in between work I'll start assembling. I don't want to rush myself and I feel like if I try to squeeze in a little here and there, I'm going to end up not doing the best job.
Skyfire1201
02-11-11, 15:05
BCM makes a 14.5" midlength LW BHF upper? All the 14.5" midlength LW barrel I saw on their website is standard and doesn't have BHF on it. How does it compare to the DD CHF barrel?
I probably shouldn't have posted that video because I feel like I'm gonna get chewed by someone. :agree: I think I'll go light weight. Even thinking about a 14.5" upper with permanent flash hider. Here is my revised list. I hate making decision. Especially with such a limited amount of money.
SPIKE'S TACTICAL STRIPPED LOWER - already have
DANIEL DEFENSE LPK - already have
BCM STOCK/RECEIVER EXTENSION ASSEMBLY W/H BUFFER - already have
MAGPUL MOE BUTTSTOCK - already have
DANIEL DEFENSE QD SLING ENDPLATE - $35
MAGPUL MOE GRIP - already have
MAGPUL MIAD ENHANCED TRIGGER GUARD - already have
BCM 14.5" MIDLENGTH LIGHTWEIGHT BFH COMPLETE UPPER - $535
BCM M16 BOLT CARRIER GROUP W/STANDARD CHARGING HANDLE - $135
MAGPUL MOE MIDLENGTH HANDGUARDS - $35
TROY FOLDING BUIS - already have
AIMPOINT H-1 - $470
LARUE TACTICAL LT-660 MOUNT - $100
I have almost all of the components for the lower now. I will probably get it assembled and post some pics next week.
BCM makes a 14.5" midlength LW BHF upper? All the 14.5" midlength LW barrel I saw on their website is standard and doesn't have BHF on it. How does it compare to the DD CHF barrel?
I haven't been following my thread. The upper I was referring to is this one.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-14-5-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-mid-14bfh%20ddl12.htm
I have sold off my spikes lower and have purchased a complete BCM lower from grant at grtactical and a 16" BCM complete midlength upper with 12" larue handguards. Am feeling much less stressed out trying to figure out all these parts and crap. Sure it was a bit pricey but I would rather just be done with it and start heading out to some carbine courses.
walter34payton2002
02-18-11, 14:00
Nice job!!! I think you made a great choice. Can't go wrong and you won't lose sleep.
As funny as it may seem to lose sleep over such a silly thing, I found myself staying up 2-3 hours later than usual just looking at various AR parts trying in a mission to build the best. Buying the best didn't cost too much more and was worth a tiny bit extra and was exactly what I wanted. I left a few customization options open such as the stock, vertical grip, and optics. On the plus side, I get more sleep so I'm happier at work and don't yell at the interns. I will post pictures and a review will follow as soon as I get to take it to a carbine class. No use posting a review after plinking at the range.
Skyfire1201
02-21-11, 23:25
I haven't been following my thread. The upper I was referring to is this one.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-14-5-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-mid-14bfh%20ddl12.htm
I have sold off my spikes lower and have purchased a complete BCM lower from grant at grtactical and a 16" BCM complete midlength upper with 12" larue handguards. Am feeling much less stressed out trying to figure out all these parts and crap. Sure it was a bit pricey but I would rather just be done with it and start heading out to some carbine courses.
Ah, that explains it, I thought BCM finally started offering the upper I want: a 14.5" BFH LW middy. Guess I'll have to wait some more :rolleyes:
The upper I was referring to is this one.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-14-5-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-mid-14bfh%20ddl12.htm
I'm in the same boat when it comes down to FF or MOE Mid-length - price v. options, but I have to agree with Rob that the MOE fills a very good gap and I am leaning more towards it then the FF.
HOWEVER!
I had just realized, as per your link to BCMmfg, that they offer to pin+weld onto a 14.5, which is AWESOME! and had not noticed before.:lol:
My excitement is so because I am in a ban state and, for whatever reason, BCMmfg do not pin and weld comps/breaks or sell the 16s without a muzzle device (if I'm wrong on this anyone, then tell me, I would be delighted to be wrong!).
Now I have two options for a quality upper - MOE or FF - (the other is Rainier Arms), unless someone can point me to a third.
Post pics of your assembly. Interested on how it turned out.
This thread is another good example of the value of m4c.net! Kudos to all!
Info, info, info, info...
I'm in the same boat when it comes down to FF or MOE Mid-length - price v. options, but I have to agree with Rob that the MOE fills a very good gap and I am leaning more towards it then the FF.
HOWEVER!
I had just realized, as per your link to BCMmfg, that they offer to pin+weld onto a 14.5, which is AWESOME! and had not noticed before.:lol:
My excitement is so because I am in a ban state and, for whatever reason, BCMmfg do not pin and weld comps/breaks or sell the 16s without a muzzle device (if I'm wrong on this anyone, then tell me, I would be delighted to be wrong!).
Now I have two options for a quality upper - MOE or FF - (the other is Rainier Arms), unless someone can point me to a third.
Post pics of your assembly. Interested on how it turned out.
Got the upper and lower in today. Threw on troy folding sights. Am waiting for my ctr stock and will then post pictures. Still waiting on optics, sling, and VFG
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