View Full Version : Ball Point, Hollow Point...who does this?
So I had this friend awhile back, A former Marine. He carried a Glock17. One day the magazine was laying out and I picked it up to see what he liked to carry(ammo) wise. I noticed the first one was a ball(FMJ) followed by a hollow point and so on. Anyone else do this? And why?
GermanSynergy
02-07-11, 21:20
It's not a practice that I'd recommend to anyone. Carrying FMJ ammunition in a defensive handgun for CCW makes little sense, unless one is mandated by law / regulations to do so (.MIL, etc).
Did you ask your friend why he did this?
1. always carry good JHPs when possible
2. don't bother alternating rounds. if you follow #1 you shouldn't need to anyway
F-Trooper05
02-07-11, 21:28
To punch through barriers maybe? Either way, having two different types of ammo in a magazine can cause reliability issues. I wouldn't recommend it.
It's not a practice that I'd recommend to anyone. Carrying FMJ ammunition in a defensive handgun for CCW makes little sense, unless one is mandated by law / regulations to do so (.MIL, etc).
Did you ask your friend why he did this?
I did ask him...He said something about not needing more than two if the ball didnt drop someone? Thats what I remember anyway. It was years ago and I just NOW remembered, not ten minutes ago. It seemed odd to me to do that also. I carry every DAY. All I carry is JHP. Ive been using Federal Classic 150gr. JHP. in a .40 XD. Thanks guys. I agree with reliability issues arising and thought it was odd so I thought I would ask.
mkmckinley
02-07-11, 21:46
I've seen plenty of people with impressive levels of training and amounts of experience cling to some pretty misinformed ideas, this being one of them. We could have a whole thread on "what's the dumbest thing you heard in the military." I mean no disrespect to those that serve but not everything they say and do is based on reality.
Ball ammo will go through intermediate barriers better than HP, esp cheap HP.
If a weapon reliably cycles the HP, and cycles the ball, there is certainly no suggestion it won't function staggered. And sometimes with differing OAL the staggered ball, preventing forward seat of the HP in the magazine, will enhance reliability.
There are numerous reasons, and savvy persons have, to stagger ammo.. Ball, HP, AP, API, Tracer, dim-trace... more often in different caliber systems.
I have never bothered... (with a pistol) wagering quick closely placed rds will defeat glass to my satisfaction.. but to each his own.
1_click_off
02-07-11, 22:07
I only stagger in my 380. And I only carry that when I can't carry my larger stock. I feel it is a little better than my knife.
Ball ammo will go through intermediate barriers better than HP, esp cheap HP
This isn't entirely true.
There are JHP rounds that routinely penetrate barriers better than the average ball round, in 9mm I can think of the 124gr +P Gold Dot, the Cor Bon 115gr DPX and the new Winchester bonded stuff, vs M882 NATO ball, as an example.
In self defense handgun use I have often heard of folks candy caning their rounds.
The thought, the best as I can tell, is to get the best of both worlds. What actually happens is you have no idea what is coming out of the gun next, and these rounds given very different performance and penetration in tissue.
Back in the day, when pistols didn't feed JHPs at all well, it was also common to hand feed the first round, a JHP, into the chamber and have the magazine loaded with ball ammo for better feeding/reliability. Jim Cirillo wrote of his partner doing this with his 1911 in .45acp during the stakeout squad days on the NYPD
Fortunately for us nowadays every quality service style pistol currently made (to my knowledge) will feed JHPs just fine.
Back in the day, when pistols didn't feed JHPs at all well, it was also common to hand feed the first round, a JHP, into the chamber and have the magazine loaded with ball ammo for better feeding/reliability. Jim Cirillo wrote of his partner doing this with his 1911 in .45acp during the stakeout squad days on the NYPD
This is the only decent and logical reason I see towards this. One I've not heard of before, either.
To punch through barriers maybe?
if the threat is behind cover it might be a good time to move your @$$ rather than try to shoot something you can't see
DanjojoUSMC
02-07-11, 23:17
There is a .380 at the house with a magazine mixed of older Cor-bon JHP's and American Eagle.
We used to carry Benelli shotguns in Iraq with a tube mixed of buckshot/slugs, not the same deal as far as a different profile needing to be fed - but done for the same reason.
This isn't entirely true.
There are JHP rounds that routinely penetrate barriers better than the average ball round, in 9mm I can think of the 124gr +P Gold Dot, the Cor Bon 115gr DPX and the new Winchester bonded stuff, vs M882 NATO ball, as an example.
In self defense handgun use I have often heard of folks candy caning their rounds.
The thought, the best as I can tell, is to get the best of both worlds. What actually happens is you have no idea what is coming out of the gun next, and these rounds given very different performance and penetration in tissue.
Back in the day, when pistols didn't feed JHPs at all well, it was also common to hand feed the first round, a JHP, into the chamber and have the magazine loaded with ball ammo for better feeding/reliability. Jim Cirillo wrote of his partner doing this with his 1911 in .45acp during the stakeout squad days on the NYPD
Fortunately for us nowadays every quality service style pistol currently made (to my knowledge) will feed JHPs just fine.
What is "candy caning?
m882 NATO 9mm ball is loaded to pressures which would be +p civi equivalent.
My experiences with m882 show a more predictable trajectory, "better" for my purposes (post penetration) from varying angles through differing mediums than any HP. To include 124gr Gold dot, 124 hydro, 147 hydro. Performance though vehicles and internal structural walls & items were of interest.
In the end thoughtful shot placement trumps barrier penetration.
BTW the 380 is a pretty pathetic penetrator, IMO HP's maybe not such a good call.
I can think of no useful reason for a shotgun in a warzone, esp one loaded with a mix of load.
I personally don't think it's a good idea, but I don't understand how it could deteriorate reliability, if both rounds work well. A second magazine loaded with FMJs would be a better idea if you absolutely have to have some FMJs with you.
I've seen plenty of people with impressive levels of training and amounts of experience cling to some pretty misinformed ideas, this being one of them. We could have a whole thread on "what's the dumbest thing you heard in the military." I mean no disrespect to those that serve but not everything they say and do is based on reality.
I know a guy whose DI told him the actor who played Pvt Pile in FMJ killed himself because of it......... He told me this why we were watching Men In Black ..........
I know a guy whose DI told him the actor who played Pvt Pile in FMJ killed himself because of it......... He told me this why we were watching Men In Black ..........
Nevermind the fact that he was on Law & Order: Criminal Intent for several years, haha. Not to derail the intent of this thread, but Dano shotguns have been used in war for a long time. I would think it would be useful for the door to door stuff.
I have been at war for a long time, and have no use for a shotty. Lances were used for thousands of years and somehow seem to have been displaced, weird.
If need be I can teach patterning of buckshot for hostage rescue, breaching, or the utility of different slugs.. for some organizations that cling to archaic crap. However, the true utility of a shotgun in modern warfare is so limited as to be laughable.
Have the best day ever!
John_Wayne777
02-08-11, 14:29
As a home defense weapon or even a weapon for your average law enforcement confrontation shotguns can be very effective. The same can be said of SMG's.
...but on the battlefield, even the "urban" battlefield, I think you'll find that Dano is dead on.
As for candy-caning the ammunition in handguns, generally it's not a common practice because handguns are close range weapons of last resort. For most civilian and law enforcement applications assuming the use of service caliber weapons, people are probably best using good quality JHP ammunition. Most of the ball ammo on the open market is made as cheaply as possible...a good thing when you're looking to practice. A bad thing when you want the ammo to go bang reliably. Loading my carry gun with steel-cased Russian crap would be better than harsh language, but I'd much rather have quality JHP ammo because I know it will work.
When I my LCP in .380 I carry it with Speer 90 grain GDHP for primarily that reason. Whatever the terminal ballistics shortcomings of the little round, I know it will at least fire.
m882 NATO 9mm ball is loaded to pressures which would be +p civi equivalent.
Sort of, but it does not give one +P velocities. US loaded NATO ball from Winchester and Federal have both cron'd well under 1200fps in my testing, give or take depending on lot variations, weather, etc.
1150fps is a good ball park guess for the ammo our guys are using in the M9 day-to-day.
My most current 124gr +P GD is running 1275 from my G17, 127gr Ranger-T at over 1300fps.
So what you say? Well in many materials penetration is velocity dependent. That the GD is bonded and less likely to break up is another advantage.
In my personal testing the two JHPs in question get through dry wall, ply wood, Crown Vics, windshields, 55 gallon steel drums, and flak vests better than M882
If we had service 9mm ammo similar to what the Swedes are issuing this might be different.
Pistol caliber ball is also far more likely to ricochet than JHPs, and although I think the "overpenetration" boogie-man is overstated in CONUS LE scenarios, the fact is that the average 9mm ball round would shoot through 2-3 people if you lined them up right.
Ball for defense from sub-caliber pocket pistols is a good idea to achieve reliable levels of penetration, from service pistols (if you have a choice that is) its retarded.
I agree that reliability should not be an issue if the gun in question is reliable with both of the loaded rounds.
BTW; Candycane; a term I picked up somewhere years ago, refers to the red-white-red-white stripes on a candy cane, in a pistol mag this would refer to loading ball-JHP-ball-JHP-etc.
I have also heard this called "Dutch loading", I have no idea why.
Of course, mixing ammo in such guns as GPMGs isn't what I am talking about, 4-1 tracer mix, etc., has been working well for many years.
M882 is loaded to just under SAAMI +P specs.
Also, M882 does have tendency to skip off of windshields as compared to a good JHP.
I know a guy whose DI told him the actor who played Pvt Pile in FMJ killed himself because of it......... He told me this why we were watching Men In Black ..........
Never heard that urban legend before.
I think my all time favorite was the urban legend that Mr. Rogers had been some kind of SF Badass in Vietnam and had started working with children on the recommendation of his therapist due to his fears of children brought on by their use as bombers by the VC in Vietnam. He was supposed to have worn those button up shirts and sweaters to cover up all his various military tattoos.
Some of these are really great for a laugh.
I've seen plenty of people with impressive levels of training and amounts of experience cling to some pretty misinformed ideas, this being one of them. We could have a whole thread on "what's the dumbest thing you heard in the military." I mean no disrespect to those that serve but not everything they say and do is based on reality.
I think there might have been something like this already, or maybe I am confusing that with one of the threads about the dumbest things heard in a gunshop.
;)
Never heard that urban legend before.
I think my all time favorite was the urban legend that Mr. Rogers had been some kind of SF Badass in Vietnam and had started working with children on the recommendation of his therapist due to his fears of children brought on by their use as bombers by the VC in Vietnam. He was supposed to have worn those button up shirts and sweaters to cover up all his various military tattoos.
Some of these are really great for a laugh.
I think there might have been something like this already, or maybe I am confusing that with one of the threads about the dumbest things heard in a gunshop.
;)
HAHAHA! So Mr. rogers land of make believe was his happy place huh. I wonder if he ever kicked the producers asses and thats why he went off the air:haha:
Either way, having two different types of ammo in a magazine can cause reliability issues.
Why? I ask this question assuming that both types of ammo have proven reliable in the past.
Thanks, Keith
Say for the sake of discussion we are speaking of M882 for the FMJ round.
Now lets assume the the follow up round is the 124gr+P Speer GDHP for the JHP.
Speculation on my part:
Both are 124gr bullets. However, to achieve the 124gr weight, the Speer GDHP is going to be slightly longer than the FMJ because of the JHP cavity in the nose. To achieve virtually the same pressure and velocity as the M882, the casing for the Speer round may be a bit longer.
Perhaps the handgun slide, while in recoil, wont go far enough back grab the possibly longer round.
I dont know.
I will say this, I've had handguns in the past that choked when I fired a mixed magazine that had rounds that when consistent, did NOT fail.
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