View Full Version : NATO 5.56 UK v. USA
A buddy of mine from the UK is claiming that the USA 5.56NATO is the weakest 5.56NATO out there. His claim that France has the hottest, followed by UK/Germany, and then USA shooting peas.
His thinking for this is that at one time in his Military career a year or so ago had the chance to shoot each type of the above ammo through his L85 type weapon.
I told him that it was probably perceived recoil, etc. but he wasn't buying it.
I did as much research as I could but came up more or less empty on physical numbers for this kind of stuff. If anyone has data on anything to do with these ammos or if any current/former mil has first hand experience with Euro 5.56 let me know your thoughts.
He doesn't know what he is talking about. To prove the point ask him why the Radway Green ammo that the U.S military purchased a few years back won't reliably cycle in M4 carbines?
The operating system is different and the SA80 will function with weaker ammo, whereas the M4 will not.
A buddy of mine from the UK is claiming that the USA 5.56NATO is the weakest 5.56NATO out there. His claim that France has the hottest, followed by UK/Germany, and then USA shooting peas.
His thinking for this is that at one time in his Military career a year or so ago had the chance to shoot each type of the above ammo through his L85 type weapon.
I told him that it was probably perceived recoil, etc. but he wasn't buying it.
I did as much research as I could but came up more or less empty on physical numbers for this kind of stuff. If anyone has data on anything to do with these ammos or if any current/former mil has first hand experience with Euro 5.56 let me know your thoughts.
Is there any data out there to back this up? Powder type? Burn rate? Anything?
Search and ye shall find.
PAGE 02 RULSAMB1850 UNCLAS
REQUEST FOLLOWING INFORMATION BE GIVEN THE WIDEST DISSEMINATION. TO MEET A CRITICAL SHORTAGE OF 5.56MM AMMUNITION, THE ARMY HAS PURCHASED UNITED KINGDOM 5.56MM AMMUNITION, THAT WERE ALL PRODUCED BETWEEN 1997-2001 AND ARE THE UK'S NATO STANDARDIZED 5.56MM AMMUNTION. THERE ARE THREE UK CONFIGURATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN AUTHORIZED AS INTERCHANGEABLE WITH THREE US CONFIGURATIONS. THE CONFIGURATIONS ARE SUMMARIZED BELOW:
UK- CTG. 5.56MM BALL, L2A2,
CARTON PACK - NSN 1305-99-978-3163 AZ42
UK- CTG. 5.56MM BALL, L2A2,
BANDOLEER - NSN 1305-99-978-3427 AZ40
UK- CTG. 5.56MM CLIPPED, 4 BALL/1 TRACER L2A2/L1A2,
BANDOLEER - NSN 1305-99-978-3426 AZ41
THE RECIPIENTS WILL PRIORITIZE THESE MUNITIONS TO BE ISSUED/USED FIRST. EACH OF THE THREE UK 5.56MM CONFIGURATIONS WAS COMPARED AGAINST THE CORRESPONDING US 5.56MM CONFIGURATION FOR PERFORMANCE, SAFETY, AND RELIABILITY BY THE SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS AT ARDEC TO ASSURE INTERCHANGEABILITY. BASED ON THIS REVIEW IT WAS DETERMINED THAT ALL THE REQUIREMENTS, STATED BY THE UK AND NATO SPECS, WERE MET AND THAT THE ONLY CRITICAL ISSUE IDENTIFIED WAS A UK FINDING THAT STATED A PROBLEM WITH FAILURE TO CYCLE MALFUNCTIONS EXPERIENCED WITH CARBINE, 5.56MM, M4 (1005-01-231-0973) RIFLES DUE TO DIFFERENCE IN RIFLE DESIGN BETWEEN THE M16A2 5.56MM RIFLE AND M4 5.56MM CARBINE. UK AMMUNITION SHALL NOT BE USED IN THE M4. THIS AMMUNITION WAS RELEASED FOR FULL USE IN THE M16A2 RIFLE AND M249 SQUAD AUTOMATIC WEAPON (SAW) AND IS ACCEPTABLE FOR USE IN WEAPON ZEROING AND QUALIFICATION FOR THE M16A2 AND THE M249. THE UK 5.56MM AMMUNITION IS A BALLISTIC MATCH FOR THE 5.56MM: M855, BALL ROUND (THE UK AMMUNITION DOES NOT HAVE A GREEN TIP, BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH THE M193, 5.56MM BALL ROUND). ONCE REMOVED FROM THE PACKAGING THE UK 5.56MM AMMUNITION IS DISTINGUISHABLE FROM U.S. MADE 5.56MM AMMUNITION BY THE HEAD STAMP, WHICH INCLUDES BOTH THE NOMENCLATURE L1A2 FOR THE TRACER CARTRIDGE AND L2A2 FOR THE BALL CARTRIDGE, THE LETTERS RG, DENOTING THE MANUFACTURER, AND A RED PROJECTILE TIP ON THE TRACER CARTRIDGE. THIS AMMUNITION WILL COME PACKAGED IN THE U.K. STANDARD PACKAGE (METAL CAN), WHICH IS SIMILAR TO THE U.S. STANDARD AMMUNITION PACK FOR 5.56MM AMMUNITION. IT WILL BE MARKED WITH THE UK STANDARD MARKINGS AND NOMENCLATURE, INCLUDING THE NATO STANDARDIZATION SYMBOL "CLOVER LEAF". THE US ASSETS WILL BE TRACKED BY THE UK NSNS AND THE NSNS WILL BE TRACKED BY THE ASSIGNED PSEUDO U.S. DODACS.
FIRING UK AMMUNITION WILL INCREASE THE FREQUENCY OF WEAPON CLEANING REQUIRED. ANY MALFUNCTION/PROBLEMS EXPERIENCED WITH THIS AMMUNITION SHOULD BE REPORTED THROUGH NORMAL AMMUNITION REPORTING CHANNELS.
SUBJ: NAVY AND MARINE CORPS AMMO INFO NOTICE 051-05. IN/CONJUNCTION WITH THE RELEASE OF UK (UNITED KINGDOM)/5.56MM, AMMUNITION FOR TRAINING USE ONLY THIS AIN SUPERSEDES AIN 041-05 (171935ZMAY05) THIS AIN APPLIES TO THE US MARINE CORPS ONLY. REQUEST FOLLOWING INFORMATION BE GIVEN THE WIDEST DISSEMINATION. THE ARMY HAS PURCHASED UNITED KINGDOM 5.56MM AMMUNITION PRODUCED BETWEEN 1997-2001 AND ARE THE UK'S NATO STANDARDIZED 5.56MM AMMUNTION. THIS AMMUNITION IS RELEASED FOR TRAINING USE ONLY IN THE M16A2 RIFLE, M4/M4A1 CARBINES AND M249 SQUAD AUTOMATIC WEAPON (SAW). UK AMMUNITION SHOULD NOT BE ISSUED TO UNITS FOR USE IN COMBAT SITUATIONS. THERE ARE THREE UK CONFIGURATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN AUTHORIZED AS INTERCHANGEABLE WITH THREE US CONFIGURATIONS.
THE CONFIGURATIONS ARE SUMMARIZED BELOW: UK- CTG. 5.56MM BALL, L2A2, CARTON PACK - NSN 1305-99-978-3163 AZ42, UK- CTG. 5.56MM BALL, L2A2, BANDOLEER - NSN 1305-99-978-3427 AZ40 UK- CTG. 5.56MM CLIPPED, 4 BALL/1 TRACER L2A2/L1A2, BANDOLEER - NSN 1305-99-978-3426 AZ41 THE RECIPIENTS WILL PRIORITIZE THESE MUNITIONS TO BE ISSUED/USED FIRST IN TRAINING. EACH OF THE THREE UK 5.56MM CONFIGURATIONS WAS COMPARED AGAINST THE CORRESPONDING US 5.56MM CONFIGURATION FOR PERFORMANCE, SAFETY, AND RELIABILITY BY THE SUBJECT MATTEREXPERTS AT ARDEC TO ASSURE INTERCHANGEABILITY. BASED ON THIS REVIEW IT WAS DETERMINED THAT ALL THE REQUIREMENTS STATED BY THE UK AND NATO SPECS, WERE MET. HOWEVER, FIRING UK AMMUNITION WILL INCREASE THE FREQUENCY OF WEAPON CLEANING REQUIRED. USER MANUALS MAINTENANCE CYCLES SHOULD BE STRICTLY ADHERED TO. IN ADDITION, DUE TO WEAPON VARIABILITY, CERTAIN WEAPONS WILL PERFORM BETTER THAN OTHERS. WEAPONS THAT EXPERIENCE MORE STOPPAGES SHOULD BE CLEANED MORE OFTEN. THE UK 5.56MM AMMUNITION IS A BALLISTIC MATCH FOR THE 5.56MM: M855, BALL ROUND (THE UK AMMUNITION DOES NOT HAVE A GREEN TIP, BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH THE M193, 5.56MM BALL ROUND). ONCE REMOVED FROM THE PACKAGING THE UK 5.56MM AMMUNITION IS DISTINGUISHABLE FROM U.S. MADE 5.56MM AMMUNITION BY THE HEAD STAMP, WHICH INCLUDES BOTH THE NOMENCLATURE L1A2 FOR THE TRACER CARTRIDGE AND L2A2 FOR THE BALL CARTRIDGE, THE LETTERS RG, DENOTING THE MANUFACTURER, AND A RED PROJECTILE TIP ONTHE TRACER CARTRIDGE. THIS AMMUNITION WILL COME PACKAGED IN THE U.K.STANDARD PACKAGE (METAL CAN), WHICH IS SIMILAR TO THE U.S. STANDARD AMMUNITION PACK FOR 5.56MM AMMUNITION. IT WILL BE MARKED WITH THE UK STANDARD MARKINGS AND NOMENCLATURE, INCLUDING THE NATO STANDARDIZATION SYMBOL "CLOVER LEAF".THE US ASSETS WILL BE TRACKED BY THE UK NSNS AND THE NSNS WILL BE TRACKED BY THE ASSIGNED PSEUDO U.S. DODICS. ANY MALFUNCTION/PROBLEMS EXPERIENCED WITH THIS AMMUNITION SHOULD BE REPORTED THROUGH NORMAL AMMUNITION.
Is there any data out there to back this up? Powder type? Burn rate? Anything?
GermanSynergy
02-08-11, 18:35
FWIW,
Radway Green 5.56 will not run reliably in any of my middies, but it runs like a top in my sticks w/ a carbine length gas system.
It does, however, run great in my SR15E3 (as does everything else).
Given it's finicky nature, I won't be buying any more.
Never had any functional issues w/ LC M855.
That is weird. It should work in the longer guns (middy and rifles) and problematic in the M4. I know we had issues with it as well with our Bushy M4's.
FWIW,
Radway Green 5.56 will not run reliably in any of my middies, but it runs like a top in my sticks w/ a carbine length gas system.
It does, however, run great in my SR15E3 (as does everything else).
Given it's finicky nature, I won't be buying any more.
Never had any functional issues w/ LC M855.
Funny how "standarization" works... :haha:
If the standard is too loose, what is the practical value? For example, for 9 mm parabellum the NATO standard is STANAG 4090, and muzzle energy can be anywhere from 400 to 600 ft-lbs out of an 8" test barrel. And there are no plans to change this in the near future.
I think there is an effort to improve the interchageability of 5.56 ammo, but we'll see the results...
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