View Full Version : SIG...You Complete Me...
Or more correctly I "think" I have completed my SIG collection.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/00000000410.jpg
In what was truly a "Ralphie moment" my SIG 552-2 Commando arrived today. Very interesting variation. I had mostly expected a scaled down 550/551 with no real changes. The most obvious change (especially when it launched out of my gun when I opened it) was the "true to the AK roots" recoil spring behind the bolt. Thankfully nobody was injured and a manual would have been nice. This is also a lesson in complacency because you "believe" you know all about a given system.
Another interesting feature was the sling points on the stock collar, why they couldn't have implemented this on the SIG 556 is beyond me.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/00000000409.jpg
And it's BLACK. Had a deja vue moment to when I saw my first black HK in the mid 80s having been accustomed to the green park of the G3 and the blue gray finish of the 90 series. I am so used to SIG green that the black was almost exotic.
There were a few other surprises such as the fact that the 6 o'clock handguard rail for use with a VFG was simply screwed into a plastic handguard with no retaining nuts or plate on the other side. Did Cohen intern at Switzerland at any point? A very minor matter as I removed it anyhow, but I don't think it could handle the stress of a VFG mount. At least the 551 SWAT 6 o'clock rail is setup with retaining nuts on the backside. I suppose one could probably add retaining nuts if they wanted to.
The whole bottom handguard rail issue also convinced me that I probably don't want to add a top rail as originally planned. I think this is gonna be my lightweight simple PDW and my Colt 6520 SBR project just took a back burner.
Another interesting change is the charging handle. It's a thin little post rather than the beefy AK style handle I have become used to. While I wouldn't call it "better" and I don't think it is an appreciable weight saver, I don't see how it is necessarily any worse.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/00000000411.jpg
It is amazing how "handy" the little SIG is, even compared to the 551 SWAT. Pretty similar to toting an MP5 except for the difference in loaded magazines.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/SteyrAUG/00000000408.jpg
But more than anything else a reminder of what the 556 might have been and I am extremely thankful that I have the option to obtain original SIG rifles even at a slight premium. And the fact that it "doesn't take AR mags" bothers me not at all.
:D
Very nice. Now you just need the 552-to-553 conversion kit from Colorado Gun Sales.....you know, for completeness sake.
There were reports coming out of Iraq from several PMC's that were issued the 552/553 of broken bolts.
There's a lot of stress going on in that little package. Especially in full auto fire.
I doubt you'll put it through the kind of stresses that they did, but it might not be a bad idea to pick up a spare bolt if you can find one.
Oh, and very nice. :D
Very nice. Now you just need the 552-to-553 conversion kit from Colorado Gun Sales.....you know, for completeness sake.
So what is the kit? Just the new recoil spring/rod setup? Can I use my existing bolt or does it require a new design?
So what is the kit? Just the new recoil spring/rod setup? Can I use my existing bolt or does it require a new design?
550/551 type piston and bolt carrier. Modified gas tube. I just converted my 552 sbr to 553 with this kit.
550/551 type piston and bolt carrier. Modified gas tube. I just converted my 552 sbr to 553 with this kit.
Got a link? I couldn't find them on the CGS website.
Got a link? I couldn't find them on the CGS website.
It was never listed on their website. Best to call and ask if they have any in stock. You need the complete 553 conversion kit which consists of conversion piston (slightly different than standard 553 piston), conversion gas tube (again, different/modified from standard 552/553 tube), standard 550/551 carrier and charging handle.
Haven't had a chance to shoot mine since installing 553 conversion kit, but shot it in 552 format a few weeks ago and was very impressed.
Moose-Knuckle
02-08-11, 17:39
As usual. . .well played sir, well played.
It was never listed on their website. Best to call and ask if they have any in stock. You need the complete 553 conversion kit which consists of conversion piston (slightly different than standard 553 piston), conversion gas tube (again, different/modified from standard 552/553 tube), standard 550/551 carrier and charging handle.
Haven't had a chance to shoot mine since installing 553 conversion kit, but shot it in 552 format a few weeks ago and was very impressed.
So are these Swiss parts or US made?
As usual. . .well played sir, well played.
It's kinda amazing, I'm approaching something resembling contentment with respect to my collection.
So are these Swiss parts or US made?
Swiss.
Nice collection. Incredible paint jobs on those things!:D
It is kinda amazing what the Swiss and the Germans can do with stamped sheet steel......
It is kinda amazing what the Swiss and the Germans can do with stamped sheet steel......
Along those lines I always preferred the AKM and the 74 to the 47. I actually like my 180 a lot too.
Very nice collection you have. You should be very proud! Congrats!
Oh, thank God! I read the title and I thought you bumped your head and bought one of their pistols in a moment of confusion!
Very nice. Out of curiosity, those aren't pre-ban guns are they?
variablebinary
02-09-11, 01:40
What, this isn't good enough for you? Why would you want a real Swiss SIG, when you can have SIG USA quality?
http://www.triggerwork.net/images/sig556.jpg
Very nice. Out of curiosity, those aren't pre-ban guns are they?
Technically they are pre 86 dealer sample SBRs. Never mind the fact that they were both actually imported after 89, it's a ATF thing.
But the classification allows them to be treated like pre86 dealer sample machine guns which means a SOT such as myself can buy them without a LE demo letter and can keep them after retiring my license.
It also means they cost around $3-4,000 rather than $10-12,000.00 for a pre 89. And it also means you can get -2 variants a lot easier to say nothing of 552 models.
What, this isn't good enough for you? Why would you want a real Swiss SIG, when you can have SIG USA quality?
http://www.triggerwork.net/images/sig556.jpg
I figure the paint job alone was worth the extra grand.
:haha:
Do you have a 550?
There is one for sale on the AK forums.
Do you have a 550?
There is one for sale on the AK forums.
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/7016/00000000024os9.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/1880/00000000371.jpg
Well then -
Nothing to see here - move along.
Well then -
Nothing to see here - move along.
Yeah, it does kinda make you sick, doesn't it......
:p
Got your MR556A1 yet?
Not yet.
Still waiting on my supplier to get them in.
Can I be you? Just for one day?
variablebinary
02-09-11, 20:12
Can I be you? Just for one day?
Why the envy? Are you really that impressed by an expensive paint job and the ultra failure of rock-in mags?
Where do you live exactly? ;)
Seriously though, great stuff.
Why the envy? Are you really that impressed by an expensive paint job and the ultra failure of rock-in mags?
Give it up.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Movie%20guns/RoninSig551.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
02-09-11, 20:35
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/CliveOwenBourne.jpg
Now for real life. . .
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/SOFSig551.jpg
Kevin_B posted a pic of his bunk in Iraq a couple of years ago.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Iraq/HozerBsloadout.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
02-09-11, 21:34
Kevin_B posted a pic of his bunk in Iraq a couple of years ago.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Iraq/HozerBsloadout.jpg
The Kalashnikov on the far left, what is the skinny on it? Appears to be a Galil with a stamped receiver and a Choate folder. Never seen the handgaurd either. :confused:
TheGreenRanger24
02-09-11, 21:35
Why the envy? Are you really that impressed by an expensive paint job and the ultra failure of rock-in mags?
Maybe . . . :o
Congrats SteyrAUG. I can honestly say having seen just a few pictures of your collection that I sincerely hate you.
jk :haha:
The Kalashnikov on the far left, what is the skinny on it? Appears to be a Galil with a stamped receiver and a Choate folder. Never seen the handgaurd either. :confused:
Looks like a German Weiger to me.
Give it up.
Check your sarcasm meter, I think VB is doing an impression of "that guy."
:D
Yugo M21
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/cms/index.php?id=86
Yugo M21
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/cms/index.php?id=86
No shit. Interesting. They've come a long way from that M70. With that pistol grip I pegged it for a Weiger.
There's some weird history behind that rifle, if I'm remembering things correctly IMI was involved initially and may have pulled out. Templar might know more.
Yep, Serbian M21, 5.56x45mm. They're in use by a number of private military companies to supply their guys, both in Iraq and Afghanistan.
As far as IWI having any involvement, I'd honestly be surprised. The Serbs and the Israeli's aren't on the best of terms.
The Croats on the other hand have a some ties with the Israelis.
Beautiful pictures. This is the holy grail of rifles to have, for many of us, these are just a wish we could never afford. Glad to see you are living and enjoying the dream.
Don't you also need the B&T rail mounts to truly complete them or will you be keeping them close to stock?
I always wondered what was better, your SIG or AUG A2, another discussion.
Check your sarcasm meter, I think VB is doing an impression of "that guy."
:D
He was probably aware of that and just meant 'quit while you're behind.';)
Gray Ghost
02-10-11, 06:25
It also means they cost around $3-4,000
That seems very reasonable to me. I have that much wrapped up in my plain-jane SCAR 16S + optic.
Just gotta find a seller now...
Beautiful pictures. This is the holy grail of rifles to have, for many of us, these are just a wish we could never afford. Glad to see you are living and enjoying the dream.
Don't you also need the B&T rail mounts to truly complete them or will you be keeping them close to stock?
I always wondered what was better, your SIG or AUG A2, another discussion.
The 551 SWAT and 552 Commando both have a side rail for a light. That is pretty much the only accessory I need so I won't need railed handguards or the associated weight.
In fact on both rifles I actually removed the 6 o clock rail.
That seems very reasonable to me. I have that much wrapped up in my plain-jane SCAR 16S + optic.
Just gotta find a seller now...
And you need to be a SOT. If you have that, here you go.
http://sig552commando.com/Home.html
Moose-Knuckle
02-10-11, 15:09
Yugo M21
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/cms/index.php?id=86
Thanks for the info.
They are seriously nice rifles. Now you need to somehow get your hands on one of the dozen or so SG 550-1 Sniper models. I think they are mostly pre-1989, but I do know one gentleman who has one sample, I'm not sure of the exact classification, but it is transferable, post-89 and he got it for around $20k.
They are seriously nice rifles. Now you need to somehow get your hands on one of the dozen or so SG 550-1 Sniper models. I think they are mostly pre-1989, but I do know one gentleman who has one sample, I'm not sure of the exact classification, but it is transferable, post-89 and he got it for around $20k.
I've seen a few and the Admin at HKPro was selling his awhile back. Basically a few came in post 89 import ban as LE sales, but because they are NOT NFA they avoid the dealer sample classification. And IF they are in the possession of an LE agency for an acceptable amount of time (ATF rules again) they magically become pre89 imports just like those DOJ HK94s from a few years back and are title I firearms like any other.
And while I am a major SIG junkie, for $20k I'm gonna pass and buy a PSG1 instead and have plenty left over. To me 5.56 "sniper" is almost an oxymoron and if I am gonna have a 5.56 DMR it will be an AR pattern rifle, probably a SR15 variant.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-10-11, 22:36
Damn nice! Much envy.
Who makes the picatinny rail on top of the 551, assuming it is an aftermarket piece, and how is it attached to the receiver?
Who makes the picatinny rail on top of the 551, assuming it is an aftermarket piece, and how is it attached to the receiver?
Brugger and Thomet, it attaches to the same mounting points as the SIG stanag mount.
http://www.dsarms.com/SIG-550-Series-Rail-Mount-MIL-STD-1913-Picatinny---BT20120/productinfo/BT20120/
http://www.dsarms.com/images/BT20120.jpg
Basically it is the current correct configuration.
Damn you Steyr. Uncool!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Movie%20guns/RoninSig551.jpg
My thoughts exactly, well played!
I'm one step closer to mine. Now I need a 556 host, some paperwork, and a builder.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m208/HKocher/004-3.jpg
MilitaryArms
02-24-11, 21:51
What, this isn't good enough for you? Why would you want a real Swiss SIG, when you can have SIG USA quality?
http://www.triggerwork.net/images/sig556.jpg
OMG, those pics take me back to the initial release and the absolute devastation I felt. I so wanted a 550 and what Sig USA gave us was a complete mess...
They've cleaned up their mess a bit, trying to make their rifle more closely resemble a 550... but how I admire AUG for his collection.
The Professor
02-28-11, 15:30
So how good does a Sig run? Are they as good as an AR?
thinking of buying one. 556, Looks good in the Swat model.
Any thing I need to look for when Buying?
So how good does a Sig run? Are they as good as an AR?
thinking of buying one. 556, Looks good in the Swat model.
Any thing I need to look for when Buying?
Only had it to the range twice now, but very happy. More or less AR accuracy.
However, please note we are talking about two very different SIGs here. Mine are Swiss imports, the 556 is a US made commercial copy.
The Sig 556 is a great rifle built like a tank and uber reliable.
The bolt is patterned after the AK design and the controls are basically like AR controls.
I think AR's are a little bit more accurate than most 556's but not as tough or reliable.
I just wish Sig USA would have made 550's!!!!!!
I still can't comprehend why the didn't just make exact copies of the 550 series Sigs!!!!!!
I mean that's what we all want right!!!!!!!!!
I have two 556's a green commando that Sports south sold exclusively with the original 550 handgaurds when all the other 556's hand the fish gills and a 556 Classic that I got when the price dropped to under $1000. I like them both a lot and have never had a malfunction from either gun. They both shoot about 2-2.5 MOA with my handloads and that is 20 shot groups, not hand picked 3 shot groups.
variablebinary
03-02-11, 02:14
I think AR's are a little bit more accurate than most 556's but not as tough or reliable.
I like the 55x, but there is no way in hell anyone can honestly believe this.
The M4/AR15 has an uncanny knack for beating other rifles in direct head to head competition. The main reason is simplicity. The M4 has far fewer parts than other designs, so there is less to break.
The main issue with just about every gun on the planet is they fall apart and experience breakages long before the M4 risks jamming due to fouling.
I like the 55x, but there is no way in hell anyone can honestly believe this.
The M4/AR15 has an uncanny knack for beating other rifles in direct head to head competition. The main reason is simplicity. The M4 has far fewer parts than other designs, so there is less to break.
The main issue with just about every gun on the planet is they fall apart and experience breakages long before the M4 risks jamming due to fouling.
Are you serious with this stuff? :rolleyes:
variablebinary
03-02-11, 06:31
Are you serious with this stuff? :rolleyes:
Yeah I am serious. A prime example being the Colt Canada UK trials where the SFW managed to beat the HK G36 and SIG 552 because it was more reliable and didn't fall apart under heavy use.
http://www.coltcanada.com/Images/sfw-pic.gif
This scenario has been played out many times over. In the real world, the M4 is the weapon of choice for trigger pullers for a damn good reason.
This scenario has been played out many times over. In the real world, the M4 is the weapon of choice for trigger pullers for a damn good reason.
Truth.
That's funny!!!!! AR's more reliable than a Sig 556:sarcastic:
Course, it depends on the make of AR...some are good and some are not....
The Professor
03-07-11, 05:45
I didnt mean for this tread to be like AK vs AR, type thing.
Guess Ill have to buy a Sig and see for my self.
I have several ARs and they seem to be Ammo sensitive.
Least mine are. The Sigs Ive looked at are a little heavy
I like the idea of the chargeing handle being on the side of the weapon.
Ive also been told that , One will have to replace the sights Frount and rear. There is a lot of hidden cost with the Sig.
Course, it depends on the make of AR...some are good and some are not....
QFTruth, a lot of people love to compare a DPMS or its ilk to "insert x rifle here" and talk about how bad the m16FOW is, but when was the last time you saw somebody replace the dpms or bushy in that contest with a KAC or Noveske? :P
That's funny!!!!! AR's more reliable than a Sig 556:sarcastic:
I didnt mean for this tread to be like AK vs AR, type thing.
Guess Ill have to buy a Sig and see for my self.
I have several ARs and they seem to be Ammo sensitive.
Least mine are. The Sigs Ive looked at are a little heavy
I like the idea of the chargeing handle being on the side of the weapon.
Ive also been told that , One will have to replace the sights Frount and rear. There is a lot of hidden cost with the Sig.
Guys, Steyr's post was about his new SIG 552-2, which is a real, all Swiss carbine.
Comparing the SIG USA 556 to the Swiss SIG55x series is like comparing an Olympic Arms or DPMS Sportical to a Colt 6920. They kinda look alike, and the controls are the same, but they are made to VERY different standards.
I think I need to switch out the bolt catch on my classic lower for the one on my earlier lower.
I think you need to switch out your lower for a Swiss one. Solves a lot of problems in my book;)
I have 3 AR's (Colt SP1, Late 90's Bushy and a S & W) and I personally haven't had any problems with them, but on a whole AR's are more prone to jams and failures than a real Swiss Sig or a US made Sig 556 IMHO.
I have 2 Sig 556's an early one and a newer Classic.
The tolerances on AR's are super tight which is why they are inherently accurate and unfortunately why they are inherently finicky.
The Sigs are based on an AK type bolt, carrier and trunion, that is why they are so reliable.
I have 3 AR's (Colt SP1, Late 90's Bushy and a S & W) and I personally haven't had any problems with them, but on a whole AR's are more prone to jams and failures than a real Swiss Sig or a US made Sig 556 IMHO.
I have 2 Sig 556's an early one and a newer Classic.
The tolerances on AR's are super tight which is why they are inherently accurate and unfortunately why they are inherently finicky.
The Sigs are based on an AK type bolt, carrier and trunion, that is why they are so reliable.
Really? I was not aware of that.
The tolerances on AR's are super tight which is why they are inherently accurate and unfortunately why they are inherently finicky.
That's funny.
I have three early Colts that I've been shooting for about 30 years without a SINGLE failure of any kind. And this includes an HBar that used to belong to my father that he fired for about 10 years without ever cleaning it once. When I got it from him I fired it on two occasions without a single failure before cleaning it. I was pretty amazed by how dirty it was and kinda surprised I didn't have a failure.
dudley2112
03-07-11, 20:04
I think you need to switch out your lower for a Swiss one. Solves a lot of problems in my book;)
or a canadian made one ;) can still use ar mags that way
or a canadian made one ;) can still use ar mags that way
Damn dirty Canooks...with your Tavors and REAL Sig's and all your other "evil" rifle designs.....(kidding of course).
The mag regulation really does suck though...that has to be some form of torture to have those rifle's and only be able to shoot five round mags (or 10 if accepting AR mags). Doesn't Canada have laws against torturing its citizens?
SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
03-07-11, 21:10
I'm one step closer to mine. Now I need a 556 host, some paperwork, and a builder.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m208/HKocher/004-3.jpg
I'm on the same boat. Should be receiving a 551 kit within a few days but I don't have the upper yet and I'm wondering if SIG even sells them stripped for these kinds of projects. The only site I've found that seems to do builds is Turner Fabrications found at sigconversions.com. They Not sure if they're work is good but photos look promising. Any input or recommendations?
variablebinary
03-07-11, 21:10
The tolerances on AR's are super tight which is why they are inherently accurate and unfortunately why they are inherently finicky.
The Sigs are based on an AK type bolt, carrier and trunion, that is why they are so reliable.
You don't understand the context of when the AR15 is said to have tight tolerances. It has nothing to due with how parts interface and has everything to do with how the AR15 is made
The AR15 was 30 years ahead of its time when it was first unveiled. It was the first military rifle to use high precision CNC machines and aircraft grade forgings as part of its manufacturing. It was a very expensive firearm to produce compared to stamped steel guns, where some said the AR15 was a gun only the Americans could afford to make (Armalite tried to capitalize on this with the AR18).
CNC'ing is a very precise science. If your QC and tolerances aren't exact you end up with useless, out of spec parts. This is very different than an AR18 or Stoner 63 where you could use a mallet to bang the sights back into alignment if something was off.
The tolerances thing has been repeated at gun shows millions of times and has come to mean that there is an atom's width of clearance between interfacing parts so even the smallest sand grain can make an AR15 go tango uniform.
Not true, and all it takes it a day of shooting, and 10 minutes of studying how to the AR15 works to understand why it isn't true.
The Professor
03-08-11, 05:32
I'm on the same boat. Should be receiving a 551 kit within a few days but I don't have the upper yet and I'm wondering if SIG even sells them stripped for these kinds of projects. The only site I've found that seems to do builds is Turner Fabrications found at sigconversions.com. They Not sure if they're work is good but photos look promising. Any input or recommendations?
SO WILL THAT LOWER ; fit a 556 upper?
and why would you want to make the change over?
Iam just trying to get educated here. not meaning to sound like a smart a$$....I thought the 556 useing AR-15 mags was an up gread?
I thought the 556 useing AR-15 mags was an up gread?
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd157/GavinVoy/upgrayedd.jpg
SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
03-08-11, 06:53
SO WILL THAT LOWER ; fit a 556 upper?
and why would you want to make the change over?
Iam just trying to get educated here. not meaning to sound like a smart a$$....I thought the 556 useing AR-15 mags was an up gread?
I guess you can think of it as a purist's desire to have the closest thing to the original. I love the original design and configuration that the swiss are still using apparently. Even if I have to pay a boatload for mags and reloads are somewhat slower. Real swiss parts and better quality. It's like buying a late 60's muscle car versus a current iteration. It might look fancier to get the new ones with tons of technology in them but the old ones last longer and are wayyyy cooler.
SO WILL THAT LOWER ; fit a 556 upper?
and why would you want to make the change over?
Iam just trying to get educated here. not meaning to sound like a smart a$$....I thought the 556 useing AR-15 mags was an up gread?
Yep. That is more or less what the SIG Limited Edition SG 551 was. Many people do prefer the use of AR mags, but there are two distinct advantages.
1. The use of Swiss parts vs. US parts.
2. Eliminating the pointless "buffer tube."
I have 3 AR's also and and have never had a malfunction with any of them, but on a whole looking at the big picture AR's have proven to be less reliable and more finicking than an AK or a Sig.
I am a machinist/gunsmith that is how I make my living, I understand tolerances and what they mean, I have worked on many an AR and M16's as my partner is a 007 FFL, I know how they work and what causes them problems.
I also know this is an AR forum and people don't like when people come to an AR forum and talk bad about an AR.
I am not saying they are junk, or not good rifles but I am saying IMHO they are not as robust or reliable as a Sig or an AK.
Like I said before my 3 have never jammed but I have seen many AR's jam at the range and at matches I have participated in.
Yep. That is more or less what the SIG Limited Edition SG 551 was. Many people do prefer the use of AR mags, but there are two distinct advantages.
1. The use of Swiss parts vs. US parts.
2. Eliminating the pointless "buffer tube."
Do they sell this LE 551? I've never heard of it before. (like LOTS of other things)
Do they sell this LE 551? I've never heard of it before. (like LOTS of other things)
They did, they only made 250 of them and they are now all sold.
http://www.sig551.com/
When available they last sold for $4300.00 each. They still pop up on Gunbroker from time to time.
Here's a used one for $3,800.00
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=218392000
Do they sell this LE 551? I've never heard of it before. (like LOTS of other things)
there's also one for sale on sturmgewehr right now for $3900.
variablebinary
03-09-11, 03:15
I have 3 AR's also and and have never had a malfunction with any of them, but on a whole looking at the big picture AR's have proven to be less reliable and more finicking than an AK or a Sig.
I am a machinist/gunsmith that is how I make my living, I understand tolerances and what they mean, I have worked on many an AR and M16's as my partner is a 007 FFL, I know how they work and what causes them problems.
I also know this is an AR forum and people don't like when people come to an AR forum and talk bad about an AR.
I am not saying they are junk, or not good rifles but I am saying IMHO they are not as robust or reliable as a Sig or an AK.
Like I said before my 3 have never jammed but I have seen many AR's jam at the range and at matches I have participated in.
Unfortunately, your assertions don't seem to play out all that well when it comes time for a SIG 55x to compete against the M4 in direct competition. More "Robust or reliable" goes on vacation during the tougher solicitations.
"I am not saying they are junk, or not good rifles" but the standard M4 has an uncanny ability of proving itself to be the tougher, more resilient weapon despite being "finicky with tighter tolerances".
Like I said before my 3 have never jammed but I have seen many AR's jam at the range and at matches I have participated in.
What is the comparative amount of Sigs to AR's at the ranges and matches you shoot at? What were the nature of the jams? Who were the manufacturers of these rifles? Were they properly lubricated? What ammo was being used? Were the "match" guns running stock internals that were up to spec or were they tuned?
I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but if you're going to use anecdotes as evidence of a claim, you should at the very least ensure those anecdotes have as much relevant data as possible. Just seeing guns choke at the range isn't sufficient to establish whether an entire design is reliable or not. There's simply too many variable that are not the fault of the entire design that could be the culprit.
And I apologize to Steyr for the thread hijack. I've said all I'm going to say in this thread.
Love the BSG Colonel TY avitar!!!
I see your point, and understand it.
But the fact that proper lube and other factors can cause an AR to "choke" kinda prove my point, they are more finicky, you can run a Sig or AK dry and it would most likely run 100%.
As far as a Sig holding it's own in a direct competition with an M4 it would depend on what type of competition, i.e. group size, high power match or say like a 3 gun match, The AR is most likely gonna win in an accuray type match, not so much a lock in a 3 gun type or torture test match. Or a match like I run 4 times a year which you just have to knock the 8"X13" steel plates over @ 200 yds as fast as you can, doesn't matter about group size just need to hit the target. Here is a link http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=304960
Really not trying to get into a pissin contest, so I don't want to come across that way but I do enjoy conversation and debate like this.
I do like AR's and enjoy shooting them, just don't think they are the end all beat all.
If you can afford to get a Sig classic I would highly recommend it, I really think you guys would appreciate the design and enjoy shooting it! Now that you can get them for around $900 they really are a great deal!!!
BTW SteyrAUG great looking Sigs you have there!!!
Here is a pic of My Bushy AR and my Early Sig 556
I made the Flashider on the Sig BTW.
I bought the Bushy during the ban years still haven't gotten around to threading the barrel.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28886051@N06/2801009522/
Can't get pic to show up? So I just added a link.
variablebinary
03-09-11, 19:57
As far as a Sig holding it's own in a direct competition with an M4 it would depend on what type of competition, i.e. group size, high power match or say like a 3 gun match
If you don't get it by now, you probably never will.
We've had several PD's replace the 552 due to broken main springs, rivets falling around the dust cover, and broken bolts. It's a well known fact that the 552 just does not have the durability of it's competitor the Colt Commando.
Like I said before, SIG's will break before Colts, and are generally less durable, accurate and reliable. This is not new information
eternal24k
03-10-11, 07:47
well played,
I always look forward to your posts.
Is the charging handle propriatary? IIRC some original 556s had 55x carriers, so if you can use a 556 charging handle I would highly recommend the Griffin Tactical unit
If you don't get it by now, you probably never will.
We've had several PD's replace the 552 due to broken main springs, rivets falling around the dust cover, and broken bolts. It's a well known fact that the 552 just does not have the durability of it's competitor the Colt Commando.
Like I said before, SIG's will break before Colts, and are generally less durable, accurate and reliable. This is not new information
I don't understand how the 552 would destroy itself like that.
well played,
I always look forward to your posts.
Is the charging handle propriatary? IIRC some original 556s had 55x carriers, so if you can use a 556 charging handle I would highly recommend the Griffin Tactical unit
I suspect a standard charging handle might fit, but the factory one is working just fine. I don't feel compelled to change it.
I don't understand how the 552 would destroy itself like that.
KevinB and a number of other PMC's who used them in the sandbox reported bolt breakage as a common occurrence on the the 552.
I'd like to see some proof on that but I wasn't talking about the 552 anyway?
I have many friends who are and were in the armed forces and they have told me first hand stories of M16's choking at the worst moment.
I see you like Colts but there are a lot of Ar's and M16's not made by Colt.
I can't believe you expect me to believe that the M4 is so robust and dependable with all the documented problems and failures to prove otherwise. I have an actual M4 barrel that was a take off and the barrel extension has a crack through it, oh and it's a Colt!!!!!
How can that be!!!!
eternal24k
03-10-11, 17:37
this thread is spiraling down fast, how about you guys move it into your own thread?
Is it me, but have their been a lot of rabble-rousing low post derails lately?
KevinB and a number of other PMC's who used them in the sandbox reported bolt breakage as a common occurrence on the the 552.
The Sg552 had a redesigned BCG that was unlike the 550/551 models....it wasn't a great design and had reliability issues. In 2009 SIG released the SG553. The recoil spring is now wrapped around the piston rod ( like on the 550/551 models). These are the models that my friends have used and they say they're just as robust as the 550 rifle and carbine now. FYI.
If you don't get it by now, you probably never will.
We've had several PD's replace the 552 due to broken main springs, rivets falling around the dust cover, and broken bolts. It's a well known fact that the 552 just does not have the durability of it's competitor the Colt Commando.
Like I said before, SIG's will break before Colts, and are generally less durable, accurate and reliable. This is not new information
FYI! That problem was specific to the 552, which had a redesigned BCG with and integral piston rod. In 2009 that was changed and is now designated the SG553. It has a different design that is closer to the 550's design. the new design is more robust and has eliminated those issues. The rivets failing around the dust cover was probably user error. Someone trying to remove it for some reason.
Also a SIG 551/ 550 will run the M4/M16 platform into the ground. It's exactly patterned after the AK system and runs better, cleaner, and more efficiently.......that's a fact!
It's an expensive weapon just like the AUG..... we don't like to pay top dollar when it comes to small arms or we would have adopted the belgian FAL back in the 50's!
I have 3 AR's also and and have never had a malfunction with any of them, but on a whole looking at the big picture AR's have proven to be less reliable and more finicking than an AK or a Sig.
I am a machinist/gunsmith that is how I make my living, I understand tolerances and what they mean, I have worked on many an AR and M16's as my partner is a 007 FFL, I know how they work and what causes them problems.
I also know this is an AR forum and people don't like when people come to an AR forum and talk bad about an AR.
I am not saying they are junk, or not good rifles but I am saying IMHO they are not as robust or reliable as a Sig or an AK.
Like I said before my 3 have never jammed but I have seen many AR's jam at the range and at matches I have participated in.
Your comments in this thread are uniformed and show a lack of knowledge on the AR15/M16 family of weapons.
Please stay in your lane.
Army Chief
03-10-11, 18:25
Attention New Guys:
Please read more and post less until you have a clearer sense for what constitutes a "qualified opinion" according to our site culture.
This thread would be a great place to start.
AC
FYI! That problem was specific to the 552, which had a redesigned BCG with and integral piston rod. In 2009 that was changed and is now designated the SG553. It has a different design that is closer to the 550's design. the new design is more robust and has eliminated those issues. The rivets failing around the dust cover was probably user error. Someone trying to remove it for some reason.
Also a SIG 551/ 550 will run the M4/M16 platform into the ground. It's exactly patterned after the AK system and runs better, cleaner, and more efficiently.......that's a fact!
It's an expensive weapon just like the AUG..... we don't like to pay top dollar when it comes to small arms or we would have adopted the belgian FAL back in the 50's!
I do remember an article by George Sullivan or Arthur Miller (can't remember which) of Armalite regarding Malay trials. The 550 actually showed greater accuracy results than the M-16 (would have been the M16A1 I'm pretty sure) and it also beat it during drop tests (the buffer tube being the weak link).
Of course the Malays went on to adopt the HK33 which is a fine rifle but in my opinion inferior to both the SIG 550 and M16.
This is a thread about Sigs, I was not the one coming into a Sig thread and bad mouthing Sigs...... Quite the opposite.
Do you really feel that AR's are more reliable and robust than a Sig 550 or an AK?
I will readily admit that modern AR's are inherently more accurate than a 550 or an AK.
Seriously I am asking.
SteyrAUG, regarding your opening post I assume the AK style recoil spring behind the bolt of the 552 would have something to do with the shorter length of the piston/oprod on the 552, probably moved it there by necessity, they probably couldn't get the spring long enough otherwise.
SteyrAUG, regarding your opening post I assume the AK style recoil spring behind the bolt of the 552 would have something to do with the shorter length of the piston/oprod on the 552, probably moved it there by necessity, they probably couldn't get the spring long enough otherwise.
On the 550/551 the recoil spring is in front of the bolt. This is actually the 553 modification apparently where that system is applied to the 552.
On the 550/551 the recoil spring is in front of the bolt. This is actually the 553 modification apparently where that system is applied to the 552.
eggzachary!
problem solved! I have to say that I, personally, like the M4 and SIGs about the same. I think they're both great rifles. I do like the way the SIG fires a little better. I don't like that "hollow ping" type feeling from shooting an AR or the gas face when they start getting dirty or when firing them suppressed. Maybe a hydrolic buffer or something else would help, but I'm not sure.
I know this is silly, but as far as looks go, I think the M4 and it's various configs is one of the coolest looking rifles being issued. Heck I even like the old m16s with the triangular handguard and the funky 3 pronged flash hider....I think it was 3 pronged......
Fighting Tenth
03-11-11, 21:12
Without getting mired in the AR v. Sig debate too much, there are quite a few of the Sig 55X series of guns up here in the form of the civilian PE series of rifles. We have the regular length rifles, and both mid-length and short length carbines similar to the 550, 551, 552/553 respectfully - as many know.
A number of shooters here use them regularly in Service Rifle competitions - not to be confused with US High Power, ours is a course of fire that challenges the shooters ability and fitness levels as much as the rifle's accuracy. We shoot from 25m to 500m in all conditions.
Accuracy: The Sigs are very good quality but are hampered by a fairly thin barrel and no option to float the barrel. While the accuracy in the context of a service rifle is excellent, you can surpass it with any AR that is sporting a floated match-grade barrel.
Additionally, I personally think that barrel manufacturing quality on ARs has sharply risen in the last 10-15 years, so finding one (even rack grade) that won't shoot into 2moa with decent ammo is pretty scarce-my humble opinion.
Comparing apples to apples and pitting guns with similar qualities against each other I'd realistically say it is a wash, with maybe a slight (I mean by a C hair) advantage to the Sig.
Reliability: I've been around the AR for a long time since it was implimented in the CF in the form of the C7 (late 80's).
The AR works if looked after or even in less than ideal conditions, but I think under truely adverse conditions the Sig wins it. (for me at least).
Part of the problems that plagues the Sig platform is the lack of meaningful upgrades through it's service life.
The AR has and continues to evolve and is backed by an entire industry that supports it - very hard to top that.
Anyhow, since this is about Gratuitous Sig photos, I hope SteyrAUG will forgive my intrusion:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/moosanah/Swiss%20Postal%20Shoot/SwissPostalShoot1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/moosanah/Swiss%20Postal%20Shoot/SwissPostalTargetCloseup.jpg
Photos from a Swiss gun board postal shoot: first 6 rounds deliberate and following sloppyness 6 rounds in 15 seconds at 100m
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/moosanah/Swiss%20Postal%20Shoot/Sig-Swiss.jpg
My Swiss gun collection (which, since the photo, has gotten a wee bit bigger ;))
The biggest difference Tenth, is that you guys are getting all Swiss carbines, where down here, the schlock that SIG USA is making is truly a slap in the face.
Without getting mired in the AR v. Sig debate too much, there are quite a few of the Sig 55X series of guns up here in the form of the civilian PE series of rifles. We have the regular length rifles, and both mid-length and short length carbines similar to the 550, 551, 552/553 respectfully - as many know.
A number of shooters here use them regularly in Service Rifle competitions - not to be confused with US High Power, ours is a course of fire that challenges the shooters ability and fitness levels as much as the rifle's accuracy. We shoot from 25m to 500m in all conditions.
Accuracy: The Sigs are very good quality but are hampered by a fairly thin barrel and no option to float the barrel. While the accuracy in the context of a service rifle is excellent, you can surpass it with any AR that is sporting a floated match-grade barrel.
Additionally, I personally think that barrel manufacturing quality on ARs has sharply risen in the last 10-15 years, so finding one (even rack grade) that won't shoot into 2moa with decent ammo is pretty scarce-my humble opinion.
Comparing apples to apples and pitting guns with similar qualities against each other I'd realistically say it is a wash, with maybe a slight (I mean by a C hair) advantage to the Sig.
Reliability: I've been around the AR for a long time since it was implimented in the CF in the form of the C7 (late 80's).
The AR works if looked after or even in less than ideal conditions, but I think under truely adverse conditions the Sig wins it. (for me at least).
Part of the problems that plagues the Sig platform is the lack of meaningful upgrades through it's service life.
The AR has and continues to evolve and is backed by an entire industry that supports it - very hard to top that.
Anyhow, since this is about Gratuitous Sig photos, I hope SteyrAUG will forgive my intrusion:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/moosanah/Swiss%20Postal%20Shoot/SwissPostalShoot1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/moosanah/Swiss%20Postal%20Shoot/SwissPostalTargetCloseup.jpg
Photos from a Swiss gun board postal shoot: first 6 rounds deliberate and following sloppyness 6 rounds in 15 seconds at 100m
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/moosanah/Swiss%20Postal%20Shoot/Sig-Swiss.jpg
My Swiss gun collection (which, since the photo, has gotten a wee bit bigger ;))
Eh, the more the merrier.
Your experiences and opinions closely mirror mine. I have been shooting ARs for 30 years and shot my first Swiss SIG around 1990. I didn't get my very own until about 10 years ago.
There have been a few SIG upgrades, the B&T rail is a huge improvement over the old STANAG system and the -2 series updated the rifle twist from the old -1 twist. And if it is your desire to make a 20 lb. carbine there are B&T railed hand guards.
Seems the Swiss rifles have also recently gone sightless (removal of the rear diopter and front hooded sight) and IMO that is not an improvement. This is because there isn't the same ease of installing a front sight rail for a flip sight (as there is with the AR) and trying to find a rear sight that will mate up with a added on front hood sight can be challenging.
Beyond that, I don't believe the system needs many more upgrades. Thankfully they have not made one with a M4 profile barrel yet. I think the SIG series is as fully developed as necessary, there is no reason to try and make it into an AR anymore than there is a reason to try and make an AR into an AK.
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