Acceptable accuracy

[poirierpro]

What do you consider to be an acceptable accuracy for a polymer framed pistol?
We are talking self defense and/or combat accuracy.

[YVK]

I do not make any distinction between polymer framed vs. non-polymer framed pistol in terms of accuracy. It is an absolute parameter, it is either met or I don't care for the pistol. Frankly, I have the same approach to other parameters such as reliability, ergonomics etc.

Answering your question: I am capable of shooting sub-3 inch groups at 25 yards - not consistently, but with enough frequency to know I didn't do it by chance. I want my pistol to be able to meet that requirement. I want my pistols to be more mechanically accurate than I am practically accurate.

[Ak44]

Being able to hit the black of a 25yd Pistol bullseye target at 25 yds...That's a personal thing for me.

[Business_Casual]

How do you know you can shoot to the limit of the pistol? In other words what is your frame of reference with regards to pistol accuracy, Rooster?

B_C

[TehLlama]

How far out can you hit a 6" target. For me, it's only about 20yd right now, but I know I have a lot to improve.

[YVK]

How do you know you can shoot to the limit of the pistol? In other words what is your frame of reference with regards to pistol accuracy, Rooster?

B_C

By comparison and referencing to performance with other pistols, and, to some extent, using Ransom rest data.

Rooster???

[Surf]

What do you consider to be an acceptable accuracy for a polymer framed pistol?
We are talking self defense and/or combat accuracy.Any quality pistol will outshoot most shooters. It will then be up to the shooters skill to maintain combat accuracy and how their rate of fire relates to their own accuracy at any given distance. It doesn't matter if the pistol is polymer or not.

Btw, it almost sounds like you are implying that polymer framed pistols are less accurate?

[Alaskapopo]

What do you consider to be an acceptable accuracy for a polymer framed pistol?
We are talking self defense and/or combat accuracy.

Minimum for me with any defensive pistol is 4 inches at 25 yards. I prefer my guns to do 2 inches but I can live with 4.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Any quality pistol will outshoot most shooters. It will then be up to the shooters skill to maintain combat accuracy and how their rate of fire relates to their own accuracy at any given distance. It doesn't matter if the pistol is polymer or not.

Btw, it almost sounds like you are implying that polymer framed pistols are less accurate?

Nothing against polymer framed guns but in my experience they are less accuracy. Compare a Wilson KZ45 with a 1.5 inch rating from Wilson to their metal framed line at 1 inch. The top half is the same the only difference is the frame. In my personal experience polimer framed guns have always been a bit less accurate. That being said most were accurate enough. With most of the Glocks I have owned grouping between 2.5 and 4 inches.

Also a pistol does not outshoot its owner. When accuracy is measured both the shooter and the gun weigh into the mix. For example if you can hold a 2 inch group and the gun is a 1 inch gun you are probably going to have 3 inch groups. The guns deviation and your deviation get added together. You will always shoot a more accurate with a more accurate gun vs a less accurate one.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Nothing against polymer framed guns but in my experience they are less accuracy. Compare a Wilson KZ45 with a 1.5 inch rating from Wilson to their metal framed line at 1 inch. The top half is the same the only difference is the frame. In my personal experience polimer framed guns have always been a bit less accurate. That being said most were accurate enough. With most of the Glocks I have owned grouping between 2.5 and 4 inches.

Also a pistol does not outshoot its owner. When accuracy is measured both the shooter and the gun weigh into the mix. For example if you can hold a 2 inch group and the gun is a 1 inch gun you are probably going to have 3 inch groups. The guns deviation and your deviation get added together. You will always shoot a more accurate with a more accurate gun vs a less accurate one.
Pat

This is the best group I have ever fired off hand. Range was 20 yards and it may have been a fluke as I usually group around 2 inches with this pistol at 25 yards off hand. (STI EDGE in 40sw)
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/PIstol%20targets/01.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20pistols/EDGE.jpg

More typical groups for me when I am trying.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20pistols/WilsonCQB.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/PIstol%20targets/25yardtarget.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/PIstol%20targets/6-29-10WIlsonGroup.jpg


With my open gun.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/PIstol%20targets/38supergroupfiredoffhandat20yards.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20pistols/Caspian.jpg

[DanjojoUSMC]

For example if you can hold a 2 inch group and the gun is a 1 inch gun you are probably going to have 3 inch groups. The guns deviation and your deviation get added together.

:no:

You would get around a 2 inch group...

[Alaskapopo]

:no:

You would get around a 2 inch group...

Sorry but you're incorrect. You would only get a 2 inch group if the gun was capable of holding all the bullets in one hole. Your wobble zone gets added to the guns accuracy zone.
Pat

[Business_Casual]

By comparison and referencing to performance with other pistols, and, to some extent, using Ransom rest data.

Rooster???

Rooster Cogburn! I am skeptical of the accuracy claims.

B_C

[Alaskapopo]

Rooster Cogburn! I am skeptical of the accuracy claims.

B_C

None of the claims in this thread are that beyond belief. Pistols are far more accurate than most people think. Pistols are harder to shoot and many people think that just because they can't do it that it can't be done.
Pat

[JHC]

Minimum for me with any defensive pistol is 4 inches at 25 yards. I prefer my guns to do 2 inches but I can live with 4.
Pat

+1 Exactly.

Even if one can only hold offhand to 6" at 25 yds - one will be more accurate more consistently with a 2" gun than with a 4, 5 or 6" gun. Cones of wobble etc.

[YVK]

Rooster Cogburn! I am skeptical of the accuracy claims.

B_C

This is an internet, everybody shoots 2 inch groups on teh web, why can't I:D?

Seriously, there is a considerable difference in saying "I shoot 2 inch groups all day long" vs. "I have shot sub-3 inch groups enough times to know I didn't just get lucky", isn't it?

On a bigger scheme, there should be a skill point where shooter is capable of calling his gun out - either because of confidence in own skills, or by comparison with other guns. We all are aware how accurate modern guns are, and the default answer that the shooter is a weakest link. I know that people are hitting 10 inch plates from 75-100 yards from stock Glocks. I also know that [often the same] people are drifting sights on those Glocks to the right not because they jerk trigger, but because some Glocks, in fact, shoot to the left.
There is a number of people who outshot some samples of 9mm M&P; this has been documented.
I submit that one doesn't have to be Leatham to find limits of some of current mass-produced pistols.

[Business_Casual]

Do any of you dudes live in Norther VA? I'll pay for the range time, I want to see you shoot 2"'groups at 25 yards.

B_C

[NMBigfoot02]

Just to clarify: is everyone talking benched or offhand shooting?

[Littlelebowski]

Do any of you dudes live in Norther VA? I'll pay for the range time, I want to see you shoot 2"'groups at 25 yards.

B_C

I'll split it with you :D Count me in.

[YVK]

Just to clarify: is everyone talking benched or offhand shooting?

Off hand, I don't see a point in bench shooting.


Do any of you dudes live in Norther VA? I'll pay for the range time, I want to see you shoot 2"'groups at 25 yards.

B_C

I only shot 2 inch group once in my life; reproducing that may take a vacation...I've shot 2.5 groups a number of times with my 1911 and HKs, and once with Glock. 3 inch group with anything is a great day for me.

I am not sure why you're so skeptical though. I am a pretty average shooter who has been long dismayed with his long distance shooting and invested time in improving that. There was a "New Year resolutions" thread on another board I visit, and I posted my aspirations for 2011 as being consistently on black at 25 yards with each pistol I own. This is 5.5 inch grouping. However, the context of this thread is minimal accuracy allowed by a given pistol. This should be judged by a best accuracy that shooter is capable of, not average daily group size; this is just my opinion though.

Given that I am an average shot with declining visual acuity, I have no doubt that there is enough better shooters here who can shoot sub-3 groups consistently.

[jmlshooter]

Colonel Cooper had a saying about the irrelevance of these accuracy increments. Can't remember it offhand.

I think the question is: Can you get it out of your holster and consistently make a combat-effective headshot at 25 yards if you have to? I know Glock, HK and Smith can do this, even in the subcompacts.

I'm having a hard time envisioning when it would be important to put three to five shots in a 2-inch group at 25 yards.

[YVK]

C
I'm having a hard time envisioning when it would be important to put three to five shots in a 2-inch group at 25 yards.

In a sense of practical application - yes, it unlikely to be ever important. It is just a measure of fundamental skills; taking target out to 25 simply makes errors more apparent.

I'd hazard a guess that one has no chance to make a combat-effective head shot out of holster at 25 if he is incapable of printing a reasonably small group at same distance under ideal circumstances. So, to return to practical applicability, a slow shooting for groups is a "walk" part of "crawl-walk-run" progression to me.

[hopeitsfast]

Damn, i knew i was not in the same league as the better pistol shooters, but some of you guys are really making me feel ridiculous. 2" at 25yds, not 25 feet....yards?

Hell, 4", 6", at those distance, to me that's still excellent shooting in my mind. I need more practice! :(

[YVK]

Damn, i knew i was not in the same league as the better pistol shooters, but some of you guys are really making me feel ridiculous. 2" at 25yds, not 25 feet....yards?

Hell, 4", 6", at those distance, to me that's still excellent shooting in my mind. I need more practice! :(

As I said above, consistent sub 5.5 inch groups would be a big milestone for me.

[JHC]

Just to clarify: is everyone talking benched or offhand shooting?

Totally from a bench/rest! ;) Hell from a ransom rest if they were plentiful and cheap although I've heard poly guns are tough to ransom.

However the OP question is about the gun - not the shooter. And no matter how many folks say - and this includes Jeff Cooper - that 2" or 5" capable guns - no real world difference - they are wrong. Doesn't matter their pedigree. Good shooters shoot better with more precise pistols than with guns that can't group better than 5-6" - like several of the rack grade 1911s I've owned or my M&P Pro 9.

The best shooters - including those who shoot for blood - consistently spec their pistols for high levels of inherent accuracy. As our high speed SME's here sometimes post "that's a clue".

[danpass]

ammo choice will make a difference in accuracy as well.


for example:

Factory Speer 9mm 124GD always grouped better than WWB 9mm in any 9mm I had.

I haven't reloaded yet for 9mm but I suspect a reloader can equal the Speer accuracy with just a consistent powder charge. Then add in a quality bullet over a 'mass production' bullet and it will likely improve further.

[JohnN]

ammo choice will make a difference in accuracy as well.


for example:

Factory Speer 9mm 124GD always grouped better than WWB 9mm in any 9mm I had.

I haven't reloaded yet for 9mm but I suspect a reloader can equal the Speer accuracy with just a consistent powder charge. Then add in a quality bullet over a 'mass production' bullet and it will likely improve further.

Dan makes a good point, in addition, we have seen fairly wide variances in quality control from factory ammo the last few years. Factoring in just the ammo component makes it more difficult to assess the capability of the platform.

[poirierpro]

Do any of you dudes live in Norther VA? I'll pay for the range time, I want to see you shoot 2"'groups at 25 yards.

B_C

I'm in on this aswell.

My intention of this thread was to find out what was acceptable accuracy, off hand, with a poly frame pistol. I do believe, in my experience, that all metal/alloy framed pistols are more accurate for various reasons.

My interest in this issue is because I've heard many people say that the M&P 9mm has sub par accuracy. I know that there are many threads regarding this.

The question is at what point/distance and at what group size/inches makes a pistol not accurate enough?

[YVK]

The question is at what point/distance and at what group size/inches makes a pistol not accurate enough?

To me it would be a mechanical accuracy of over 3 inches at 25 yards.

[John_Wayne777]

What do you consider to be an acceptable accuracy for a polymer framed pistol?
We are talking self defense and/or combat accuracy.

Polymer framed pistols can be quite accurate:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMG_20110205_135410.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMG_20110205_135514.jpg

H&K P30 9mm, 5 shot group offhand at 25 yards. Note that 4 of the 5 shots form essentially one big hole. The hit in the 9 ring is a called flyer.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/db8ca078.jpg

S&W M&P 9mm offhand at 25 yards. Note that 4 shots are in the X ring, and 4 shots are in the 9 ring because I sucked. The shots in the white are because I sucked really bad. The weapon itself was fully capable of putting all the shots at least in the 10 ring.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05185842AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05190036AmericaNew_York2010.jpg

S&W M&P .45, 5 shot group at 25 yards. 4 shots are clustered very close together with the 5th a called flyer. (Called flyer means I called the shot's location as I broke it because I screwed something up)

Polymer pistols can be very accurate as these specimens show. I've yet to shoot a decent polymer handgun (Glock, H&K, Sig, S&W M&P, Walther, etc) that had accuracy problems. All of them seem to have been fully capable of making a hit on a reasonably sized target at 25 yards if I did what was necessary on the trigger and the sights. In that chain I'm invariably the weak link.

In other words, when it comes to most pistols I don't really worry too much about their inherent mechanical accuracy. Now it's certainly nice to shoot pistols that are as accurate as the specimens I've put up in pictures, but even my humble Glock 17 is capable of far more accuracy than I can wring out of it. The last time I shot it my groups with the G17 on average were slightly smaller than what I normally get from my P30 at 25 yards...even though in the above picture you can see how accurate my P30 is.

In general if the weapon is mechanically capable of 4" groups at 25 yards (factoring out all shooter error...good luck trying to accomplish that, though) then it's more than sufficient to any practical task you could ask of it. More mechanical accuracy isn't ever going to hurt, but it's not something you need to chase.



My interest in this issue is because I've heard many people say that the M&P 9mm has sub par accuracy. I know that there are many threads regarding this.


M&P's seem to perform best in the accuracy department with light projectiles. The heaviest ammo I shoot is 124 grain +P Gold Dot, which my 9mm M&P's (I own 4 of them) seem to like quite a bit. Heavier projectiles (like 147 grain) seem to be sub-optimal in the accuracy department. There are also 9mm M&P's suffering from a premature unlocking problem which can manifest in groups that are insanely high at 25 yards or insanely big. Enough guns have had the problem for it to be a known concern, but in percentage terms the number of guns that are afflicted with the problem seems to be fairly small. I've bought 5 9mm M&P's over a period of 3 years and all of them seem to be capable of good accuracy.


Colonel Cooper had a saying about the irrelevance of these accuracy increments. Can't remember it offhand.

With all due respect to the deceased Colonel, he wasn't Moses. There is never going to be a time when having the ability to place extremely precise fire on a target/threat is going to be a liability. Shots in the real world may not always be on a big target standing still at close range. In the Training forum there's an account of a deputy who was shot multiple times by a guy with a rifle and he had to defend himself with a pistol. The bad guy was wearing body armor and the deputy, on the ground, had to shoot underneath the vehicle at whatever small targets of opportunity he could get his sights on.

It's not absolutely critical to have a gun that shoots 1" groups at 25 yards...but if you can get a reliable, durable, affordable weapon that does manage to shoot 1" groups it would sure be a good asset.

I've used my P30 to hit more or less the center of a steel silhouette at over 130 yards with iron sights. I watched LAV with a G17 make the same hit. I watched CoolBreeze knock down 6" steel plates from roughly 100 yards with an open sighted Glock 19. As a general rule, the majority of service grade handguns on the market are more than sufficient in the accuracy department.

[R Moran]

I once asked Vickers about accuracy, shooter and gun.

He felt, the shooter should be able to hit a standard bull, so 5.5", lets just call it 6" at 25 yards/mtrs offhand, on demand.

Therefore the gun should be capable of 1/2 that from a mechanical rest.

I agree with Alaska, the more accurate the gun the better, your just removing one variable from the equation. On the other hand, if a particular gun brings something else to the table, I'll give up a bit of accuracy.

Bob

[G34Shooter]

My deviation from the bullseye is mainly from my vision :o

[Surf]

Nothing against polymer framed guns but in my experience they are less accuracy. Compare a Wilson KZ45 with a 1.5 inch rating from Wilson to their metal framed line at 1 inch. The top half is the same the only difference is the frame. In my personal experience polimer framed guns have always been a bit less accurate. That being said most were accurate enough. With most of the Glocks I have owned grouping between 2.5 and 4 inches.

Also a pistol does not outshoot its owner. When accuracy is measured both the shooter and the gun weigh into the mix. For example if you can hold a 2 inch group and the gun is a 1 inch gun you are probably going to have 3 inch groups. The guns deviation and your deviation get added together. You will always shoot a more accurate with a more accurate gun vs a less accurate one.
PatPat,

Just for reference, I am a steel frame pistol type and I prefer a 1911. However I do own numerous poly pistols. Having said that, I would agree that I could get more accuracy out of a custom fitted steel framed and steel slide pistol. This is not the standpoint that I believed the question to be based around. I believed it to be based from an off the shelf and same class or category of pistol type of question. In reality, I cannot think of any custom fitted type of poly pistols, so yes steel will win. A pinned locking block and short rail contact between frame and upper isn't going to ever be as accurate. Is my STI or your STI considered polymer or steel? The 1911 guys would be inclined to say poly, but the upper half of the lower is steel and the fitment is steel on steel in a long rail and IMHO that is the only way to get that type of fitment if introducing any poly in a lower frame. Just the way STI does it.

Anyway, in your analogy your talking about a custom fitted frame to slide pistol. I think it is more fair to look at pistols within the same category. I don't think it is fair to put the KZ and the CQB in the same category despite being 1911 style and even running a similar or same slide. The custom fitment of frame to slide will almost always be better. I would think comparing the KZ to say a Springfield and not a semi custom or custom pistol might be more appropriate. There is also a good price point disparity in the KZ and the base CQB.

So staying within category, if I take an off the shelf Glock 17 Gen4 and say an off the shelf steel frame pistol within the same category or even a Sig P226 known to be accurate, I find no measurable difference in these off hand. Now my Nighthawk or my STI vs the Glock or Sig is a different story, but in all fairness and in good faith I cannot put them in the same category.

I know we had a similar discussion on measuring MOA and agreed however we cannot discount the fact that most weapons are capable of better accuracy without the human factor. Now if you shoot a measurable string of 2" average groups and then I take your pistol and shoot a string of 3" average groups, in technical terms the pistol is more capable then my abilities demonstrate. I do understand your point, but in reality most modern pistols, Glocks included are capable of shooting better groups than most shooters firing off hand. So all things being equal the human is indeed the variable. However a more accurate pistol should produce better results for the same shooter. However most shooters off hand cannot produce the same results as when it is fired from a bag or a rest.

[Alaskapopo]

Pat,

Just for reference, I am a steel frame pistol type and I prefer a 1911. However I do own numerous poly pistols. Having said that, I would agree that I could get more accuracy out of a custom fitted steel framed and steel slide pistol. This is not the standpoint that I believed the question to be based around. I believed it to be based from an off the shelf and same class or category of pistol type of question. In reality, I cannot think of any custom fitted type of poly pistols, so yes steel will win. A pinned locking block and short rail contact between frame and upper isn't going to ever be as accurate. Is my STI or your STI considered polymer or steel? The 1911 guys would be inclined to say poly, but the upper half of the lower is steel and the fitment is steel on steel in a long rail and IMHO that is the only way to get that type of fitment if introducing any poly in a lower frame. Just the way STI does it.

Anyway, in your analogy your talking about a custom fitted frame to slide pistol. I think it is more fair to look at pistols within the same category. I don't think it is fair to put the KZ and the CQB in the same category despite being 1911 style and even running a similar or same slide. The custom fitment of frame to slide will almost always be better. I would think comparing the KZ to say a Springfield and not a semi custom or custom pistol might be more appropriate. There is also a good price point disparity in the KZ and the base CQB.

So staying within category, if I take an off the shelf Glock 17 Gen4 and say an off the shelf steel frame pistol within the same category or even a Sig P226 known to be accurate, I find no measurable difference in these off hand. Now my Nighthawk or my STI vs the Glock or Sig is a different story, but in all fairness and in good faith I cannot put them in the same category.

I know we had a similar discussion on measuring MOA and agreed however we cannot discount the fact that most weapons are capable of better accuracy without the human factor. Now if you shoot a measurable string of 2" average groups and then I take your pistol and shoot a string of 3" average groups, in technical terms the pistol is more capable then my abilities demonstrate. I do understand your point, but in reality most modern pistols, Glocks included are capable of shooting better groups than most shooters firing off hand. So all things being equal the human is indeed the variable. However a more accurate pistol should produce better results for the same shooter. However most shooters off hand cannot produce the same results as when it is fired from a bag or a rest.

The STI is different duck. The grip frame is polymer but it mates to a steel upper half that is in contact with the slide. I understand what youa re saying about most people not being able to shoot to the potential of the gun.

The problem with pistols is most people suck with them and they think the guns themselves are not that accurate but that is false. When I was a kid in college I used to love going to the range when the guys where sighting in their hunting rifles at 100 yards. I would take my .44 Colt Anaconda and pop gallon sized milk jugs full off water off hand at 100 yards. The guys at the range thought that was impossible until I did it. The reason people have issues with pistols is trigger control. I bet those having accuracy issues on this thread find their shots going low and left a lot. (right handed shooter flinching.)
Pat

[glocktogo]

When my buddy and I were doing hardcore training for competition with revolvers together (he was on the S&W team for 4 years and now shoots for Wilson Combat) we would start and end our practice sessions with 12 rounds DA from the holster on IDPA head boxes at 30 yards. The norm was 10-12 in the head box. Anything less and we'd do it again. This was off the clock and perfect form was a must. The opportunity for perfect form and no time restraints in a self defense scenario isn't very realistic.

Most semi-auto pistols will not do 2" groups on demand at 25 yards. The ones that do may not do it with the most effective ammo for that caliber. I'm not going to say that pie plate accuracy at 25 yards is acceptable, but I think it's far more important to know what you're capable of doing on a given day than to know you can do 25 yard head shots on a good day.

Often the most important thing to know is what you can't do. Everything else flows from there.

[LMT42]

I bet those having accuracy issues on this thread find their shots going low and left a lot. (right handed shooter flinching.)
Pat

Quit peeking at my target!

Seriously though, I have my doubts about how many people here can make consistent head shot at 25 yards, without using a rest, and not taking a long time to aim. (assuming standard carry type weapon - not some heavy, long barrel gun)

[Alaskapopo]

Quit peeking at my target!

Seriously though, I have my doubts about how many people here can make consistent head shot at 25 yards, without using a rest, and not taking a long time to aim. (assuming standard carry type weapon - not some heavy, long barrel gun)

Under no stress 25 yard head shots are not that difficult for me. But under stress I drop that yardage to 15 yards.
Pat

[poirierpro]

"M&P's seem to perform best in the accuracy department with light projectiles. The heaviest ammo I shoot is 124 grain +P Gold Dot, which my 9mm M&P's (I own 4 of them) seem to like quite a bit. Heavier projectiles (like 147 grain) seem to be sub-optimal in the accuracy department. There are also 9mm M&P's suffering from a premature unlocking problem which can manifest in groups that are insanely high at 25 yards or insanely big. Enough guns have had the problem for it to be a known concern, but in percentage terms the number of guns that are afflicted with the problem seems to be fairly small. I've bought 5 9mm M&P's over a period of 3 years and all of them seem to be capable of good accuracy."


This "premature unlocking" is what I have heard about. But this issue would seem to me a common mechanical issue that is constant through ALL 9mms. How can only a select few 9mm M&Ps have a premature unlocking issue? Why are said .45 M&Ps so accurate?

With that said, I'm a HUGE M&P fan and the 9mms that I have had experience with have been very accurate with my humble ability.

[Alaskapopo]

Glock G17 Gen 4. American Eagle 124gr. 25 yds, 50 yds and 70 yds. Standard popper, 10" center is the POA/POI. I shot all distances at what I consider a moderate pace, but some might consider it fast, a few might consider it slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMdKfZJry18

6" targets from the draw at 25 yards in around 1.75 seconds consistently, not a problem. I am sure there are many others here who can do this on demand also. If you want that on the move consistently, I might want 2 seconds flat from the draw and a 10" target. :)

I was working on a drill with paper targets last summer. Draw and fire 2 rounds at a USPSA target at 25 yards. The best I could do was 2.4 seconds for both shots. Usually 1 A hit and 1 charlie. If I slowed down to 3 seconds I could get two A hits but that was slow. I feel your 1.75 hits on a 6 inch plate is very good.
Pat

[skyugo]

i can keep everything (8-10 shots) on a standard sheet of paper pretty consistently at 25 yards. This is with glock 9mm's and my HK p7.

I'm sure either of those guns could do <3" with the right nut behind the trigger.

[YVK]

This "premature unlocking" is what I have heard about. But this issue would seem to me a common mechanical issue that is constant through ALL 9mms. How can only a select few 9mm M&Ps have a premature unlocking issue?

Tolerance stacking? Barrel at the lower end of acceptable, slide on upper end of acceptable, two together - loose fit? Probably the same way as select few have had a problem with sear bounce/dead trigger due to excessive vertical slide movement and whatever else caused that problem.

Here is an interesting observation in regards to relative accuracy and how different pistols fit different shooters. This target was shot today, during a short range trip. Off-hand, 25 yards, 147 Winchester FMG ammo, 10 rounds total, split evenly between two plastic pistols.
One plastic pistol is made by a company that starts with "G", another - by company that starts with "H", and impact points are so marked.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/Heartachedoc/target001.jpg


The G-group is 4.5 inches. This gun had been "Ransomed" with average group of 3 inches, spread 2.2-3.6 over 5 ten round groups with HST ammo.

The H-group is 3.25 inches, with "best of 4" printing at 1.75".

The interesting part is this: the G-gun has a gunsmith-fitted Briley bbl, grip reduction, negative connector although the trigger is well above 5 lbs, excellent sights (Heinie rear/10-8 front), and I have shot 7300 rounds through it. With all that, the group above is pretty typical of what I get with it. The H-gun I had since Monday, it has quite horrible sights, new for me type of trigger, and I've had just 140 rounds through it. With that, the only other 25 yard group I shot with it on Monday was smaller than the one above, which gives me hope to take on B_C's challenge one day.

[Surf]

To be honest Pat the above numbers is when I train it frequently and that would be on the better side of the scale. If I do it cold without practicing and expect consistent hits, like if I walked out right now and did it, I would probably be in the 2.0 range to expect any type of consistency on 6". On an IDPA, -0 center zone I have more wiggle room.

[Lucky Strike]

Personally i just try and get 6-8" 5 shot groups at around 15 or so yards. That is acceptable accuracy to me. If i'm getting noticeably better then that then I know that I should be shooting faster.

Shooting tiny groups isn't that big of a concern to me.

[Alaskapopo]

Personally i just try and get 6-8" 5 shot groups at around 15 or so yards. That is acceptable accuracy to me. If i'm getting noticeably better then that then I know that I should be shooting faster.

Shooting tiny groups isn't that big of a concern to me.

The problem is under stress your accuracy will degrade. So if you only train for a minimum level. (6 to 8 inches at 15 yards) it will be worse under pressure. You need to train and constantly push your comfort zone.
Pat

[MadcapMagician]

The best I've heard before was a platform able to deliver:

25 yd headshots with a pistol

100yd headshots with a rifle

It's not my saying but it's something I've considered a pretty strong standard.

[John_Wayne777]

This "premature unlocking" is what I have heard about. But this issue would seem to me a common mechanical issue that is constant through ALL 9mms. How can only a select few 9mm M&Ps have a premature unlocking issue?


I'm not an engineer, but in my barely educated opinion I would blame tolerance stack. By design a properly built M&P unlocks really fast. When a design decision like that is made it brings with it certain advantages (like the generally well-liked shooting characteristics of the M&P) and certain disadvantages. By designing the weapon with such a fast unlock time S&W left very little wiggle room in case tolerances for major components (slides, barrels, etc) were off.

In other words, when you're pretty close to the ragged edge in the first place, it doesn't take much of a mistake to fall over it.

Given some of the surprising variations in tolerances that have caused issues like the reset problem some M&P's suffer from, the phenomenon of tolerance stack (several parts being a little bit off assembled into one gun that, as a result, turns out to perform poorly) seems to be a safe bet as the culprit.



Why are said .45 M&Ps so accurate?


I believe the general consensus is that it was a happy accident. In other words, S&W didn't design the M&P .45's to be tack drivers. They made other design decisions in other areas that just happened to deliver better than average accuracy.



With that said, I'm a HUGE M&P fan and the 9mms that I have had experience with have been very accurate with my humble ability.

I think that for most specimens you'll see essentially the same thing. The number of guns that have issues relative to the overall number of pistols out there is probably fairly small. That's little consolation, however, if you end up with one of the guns that has the problem.

[G34Shooter]

This was from 2 weekends ago shooting my M&Pc for the second time ever and the first time after getting it back from Apex Tactical (Level II trigger, upgraded sear, sight install). This was my first attempt at 25 yards with this gun and I was using 124gr +P Ranger-T to see how it printed at this distance. This was at 1 shot per second and as you can see, I got very sloppy after the first 5 rounds and put two off the target :haha:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/cfd2efe5.jpg

I'm hoping to get stippling from Ray-T to keep it from shifting in my hand after a few shots.

[Lucky Strike]

The problem is under stress your accuracy will degrade. So if you only train for a minimum level. (6 to 8 inches at 15 yards) it will be worse under pressure. You need to train and constantly push your comfort zone.
Pat

True.

Like I said I push myself out of my comfort zone by lowering the time allowed on my shot timer once i keep getting consistent hits in that zone.

Lowering the allowable group size would accomplish the same thing (pushing comfort zone) and will probably be something I'll try next time just to mix things up. I suppose another option would be to increase the distance to 20 or 25 yards.

[Alaskapopo]

True.

Like I said I push myself out of my comfort zone by lowering the time allowed on my shot timer once i keep getting consistent hits in that zone.

Lowering the allowable group size would accomplish the same thing (pushing comfort zone) and will probably be something I'll try next time just to mix things up. I suppose another option would be to increase the distance to 20 or 25 yards.

That is good. I tend to practice different courses of fire to mix things up. My departments qualification which I created is from contact range to 25 yards. I practice that one quite a bit and I lower the par times to make it more challenging. I also have a long range pistol qualification I designed from 50 yards to 5 yards. Its a good one to practice. I also work multiple target drills like El Prez but I stagger the distance of the three targets to mix things up.
Pat

[yhmspecter]

If I can do four inches at 20 yards I am happy I need to improve my grip to make sure I am consistant every time

[cwgibson]

Damn, i knew i was not in the same league as the better pistol shooters, but some of you guys are really making me feel ridiculous. 2" at 25yds, not 25 feet....yards?

Hell, 4", 6", at those distance, to me that's still excellent shooting in my mind. I need more practice! :(
What he said, I don't think I have ever shot at a 25 yard target with a pistol.My grandfather used to tell me "Your pistol only gets you to your real gun."

[RetiredCO]

Just got an FNP 45 and first time shooing it at 25 yards I did a 35 round group a little under 4 1/2"s.
Take out one flyer it's a little under 4 1/2"s
All but one would be in the black.
I shoot my 1911's better than this but this is a good shooting plastic wonder.
SLOW fire Hand Held Remington 230 grain JHP
Indoors.


http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_2319.jpg?t=1298449387http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_2320-1-1.jpg?t=1298450923

[RetiredCO]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_1537-1.jpg?t=1298451863http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/TRP0102-2.jpg?t=1298451863
Les Baer TRS 1 1/2"
11 rounds 10 Rounds are 1 1/2" group slow fire 25 yards indoors
Hand Held my reloads
Nosler 185 grain JHP 4.3 clays
Bob Marvel helped me with my shooting ( gave me some good tips)
after I got my Marvel custom classic from him a few years ago.
he likes the Nosler's with clays.
My TRS loves them...


Ed Brown ET
5 Rounds a Hair over 1"
10 Rounds 2 4/16"
25 Meters Indoors
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_1063-1.jpg?t=1298452613http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_1062-1.jpg?t=1298452613http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_0151-1-1.jpg?t=1298452992

[RetiredCO]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_1864bb.jpg?t=1298453523
Les Baer P2 1 1/2"
Have done my best groups with this sucker at 50 & 100 yards.

[dookie1481]

What he said, I don't think I have ever shot at a 25 yard target with a pistol.My grandfather used to tell me "Your pistol only gets you to your real gun."

OMG :rolleyes:

Maybe if you are an infantryman or a contractor.

I'm a regular dude, I don't carry a rifle around in my trunk.

[Alaskapopo]

What he said, I don't think I have ever shot at a 25 yard target with a pistol.My grandfather used to tell me "Your pistol only gets you to your real gun."

25 yards is not long range with a pistol. 50 is not that hard. 100 now you are talking long handgun range which is a challenge.
Pat

[DeltaKilo]

25 yards is not long range with a pistol. 50 is not that hard. 100 now you are talking long handgun range which is a challenge.
Pat

If I have to shoot past 25 yards with a handgun, then I seriously didn't bring the right kind of hardware.

For me, 2" at 25 yards is about what I want to see in a combat handgun. That's accurate enough that at that distance, if I *had* to make a shot that discerns between a hostage taker and a hostage, I have a reasonably assured chance of hitting the HT without harming the hostage by bullet drift.

Anything beyond 25 yards, I'll use a rifle.

[Alaskapopo]

If I have to shoot past 25 yards with a handgun, then I seriously didn't bring the right kind of hardware.

For me, 2" at 25 yards is about what I want to see in a combat handgun. That's accurate enough that at that distance, if I *had* to make a shot that discerns between a hostage taker and a hostage, I have a reasonably assured chance of hitting the HT without harming the hostage by bullet drift.

Anything beyond 25 yards, I'll use a rifle.

That is ridiculous. You don't get to pick the fight the suspect does. Unless you can walk around with a slung carbine all day every minute you may find yourself in a situation where you have to use your handgun at longer ranges than you would prefer.

I agree that if you have warning (responding to a gun call) you should have a long gun out. But in real life you don't always get a warning. Case in point. A Trooper in Alaska was fired on in a rural village by a rifled armed suspect who was hidden on the side of the trail. The range was 40 yards. The suspects round missed fortunately and the trooper retruned fire with 8 shots 6 of them hitting and killing the suspect. You use the weapon you have on your person when the fight starts. If that happens to be a pistol so be it. The whole fight your way to your rifle concept is flawed. If you are truely in a fight your better off fighting with what you have vs focusing on getting a better gun and dying in the process. Long range gun fights with pistols are rare but they do happen. Its better to not have holes in your training. I have confidence that I can hit a threat with my pistol if need be out to 50 yards easily and 100 if while more difficult would not be impossible.
Pat

[DeltaKilo]

That is ridiculous. You don't get to pick the fight the suspect does. Unless you can walk around with a slung carbine all day every minute you may find yourself in a situation where you have to use your handgun at longer ranges than you would prefer.

I agree that if you have warning (responding to a gun call) you should have a long gun out. But in real life you don't always get a warning. Case in point. A Trooper in Alaska was fired on in a rural village by a rifled armed suspect who was hidden on the side of the trail. The range was 40 yards. The suspects round missed fortunately and the trooper retruned fire with 8 shots 6 of them hitting and killing the suspect. You use the weapon you have on your person when the fight starts. If that happens to be a pistol so be it. The whole fight your way to your rifle concept is flawed. If you are truely in a fight your better off fighting with what you have vs focusing on getting a better gun and dying in the process. Long range gun fights with pistols are rare but they do happen. Its better to not have holes in your training. I have confidence that I can hit a threat with my pistol if need be out to 50 yards easily and 100 if while more difficult would not be impossible.
Pat

And from a defensive standpoint, if I have to defend myself and the person is beyond 25 yards, I'll be moving to cover and getting out of the line of fire. I am not going to engage someone beyond 25 yards defensively. It's a waste of ammunition, it's a waste of time, an the necessary amount of aiming is going to give your opponent time to take shots at you.

How is it "Ridiculous" to suggest that for most cases, being engaged from beyond 25 yards is just not likely?

[Alaskapopo]

And from a defensive standpoint, if I have to defend myself and the person is beyond 25 yards, I'll be moving to cover and getting out of the line of fire. I am not going to engage someone beyond 25 yards defensively. It's a waste of ammunition, it's a waste of time, an the necessary amount of aiming is going to give your opponent time to take shots at you.

How is it "Ridiculous" to suggest that for most cases, being engaged from beyond 25 yards is just not likely?

The Trooper who was fired on was in a defensive position. His gun was not out he was just walking down the trail. There was no cover available. (There is not always going to be cover handy in real life) 6 of his 8 rounds were not wasted ammo. If shooting past 25 yards is wasted ammo for you then you need to get some training and improve your skill in that area. Also the more skilled you are the more likely you are going to beat your opponent at long range. The average scum bag is not that accurate so range is on your side if you are proficient. Also it does not have to take forever to aim and fire at longer ranges. It will take longer than at close range but it can be done fairly quick.

Here is a stage I shot with the close targets to the sides are at 25 yards and the long targets in the middle were at 50 yards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtpGCQah-dM

I admit that long range pistol fights are not a likely occurance. But frainkly gun fights are not a likely occurance for most of us. The thing is though stats are of little comfort when you find yourself in that unlikely situation. It is better to have well rounded skills than to leave a glaring hole in the middle of your skill set.

[DeltaKilo]

The Trooper who was fired on was in a defensive position. His gun was not out he was just walking down the trail. There was no cover available. (There is not always going to be cover handy in real life) 6 of his 8 rounds were not wasted ammo. If shooting past 25 yards is wasted ammo for you then you need to get some training and improve your skill in that area. Also the more skilled you are the more likely you are going to beat your opponent at long range. The average scum bag is not that accurate so range is on your side if you are proficient. Also it does not have to take forever to aim and fire at longer ranges. It will take longer than at close range but it can be done fairly quick.

Here is a stage I shot with the close targets to the sides are at 25 yards and the long targets in the middle were at 50 yards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtpGCQah-dM

I admit that long range pistol fights are not a likely occurance. But frainkly gun fights are not a likely occurance for most of us. The thing is though stats are of little comfort when you find yourself in that unlikely situation. It is better to have well rounded skills than to leave a glaring hole in the middle of your skill set.

I can and do practice pistol accuracy at range, so I am able to hit my target as far out as I need to. I will concede the point that such things *can* happen.

[FChen17213]

Very nice shooting Alaskapopo. I agree 100% with what you said. Distance can often be our friend. I am always surprised how poorly many people shoot at 25 yards and 50 yards with a pistol. I have met a lot of guys who shoot very very quickly at 7 and 10 yards. Then when they have to shoot a 6 inch bullseye or anything smaller at 25 yards, they choke over and over....taking as many as 5 shots to connect.

[SMJayman]

Somebody asked me about what constitutes cover vs. concealment, I replied that "About 25 yards of open space constitutes cover, based on what I typically see at the range."

[mariodsantana]

Very nice shooting Alaskapopo. I agree 100% with what you said. Distance can often be our friend. I am always surprised how poorly many people shoot at 25 yards and 50 yards with a pistol. I have met a lot of guys who shoot very very quickly at 7 and 10 yards. Then when they have to shoot a 6 inch bullseye or anything smaller at 25 yards, they choke over and over....taking as many as 5 shots to connect.

I second the nice shooting comment! I'm very much a beginner at this, and am working mostly on simple marksmanship at this point. I was recently able to run The Test clean (all in the black) in under 10 seconds, and am now starting to spend more time back at the 15- and 25-yard lines. My groups at those ranges are much bigger than I would have guessed from a simple extrapolation of the distance from 10 to 25 yards. I think my problem is that with a good front sight focus, a target at 10 yards is still discernible, while a target at 15 and especially 25 yards is very much just a blur.

What I'm learning is that, unless you have a large target and can just aim for COM, the sight-picture fundamentals you need at 7 and 10 yards are trivial compared to what you need at 15 and 25.

To me, including longer ranges in my definition of "acceptable accuracy" is a no-brainer. Obviously, it will give me that longer-range capability in the unlikely event that I need it. And even though it's different in some ways than short-range shooting, I have a strong sense that it will make short-range shooting seem that much easier. Plus, at least for me, the continuous improvement - the constant challenge of always trying to pass that next milestone - is a key part of what I love about shooting.

[Alaskapopo]

I can and do practice pistol accuracy at range, so I am able to hit my target as far out as I need to. I will concede the point that such things *can* happen.

Sorry if I was a bit abrasive earlier. My point is as I have said its best to be as well rounded as possible.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Very nice shooting Alaskapopo. I agree 100% with what you said. Distance can often be our friend. I am always surprised how poorly many people shoot at 25 yards and 50 yards with a pistol. I have met a lot of guys who shoot very very quickly at 7 and 10 yards. Then when they have to shoot a 6 inch bullseye or anything smaller at 25 yards, they choke over and over....taking as many as 5 shots to connect.

Thanks for the compliment. I have a fairly good long game. I am working right now to improve my short range speed. I learned a lesson last year that you need to practice what you are not good at or may not like doing. I went to the Larue three gun match and found that my left handed rifle shooting sucked. I have been working on that a lot lately. Its a weakness for me.
Pat

[Surf]

When I first entered in LE we had wheel guns and had a 60 round count 600 point qualification scored on a B27 target. There was a 6 round final stage of fire from 40 yards. The top shooters were scoring consistent 600's and we were always battling over X counts for bragging rights. There were a good share of guys who could perform this back then.

Fast forward to today. The general dept qual is 15 yards maximum distance. Push a guy back to 25 yards and good lord they about have a heart attack. Pretty sad.

They used to tell us you will never shoot out to 25 yards. Ironically one of my classmates in the academy, 2 years out of the academy, hit and stopped a moving guy at 60 yards, off hand with a revolver. From that time on, I never took distance shooting lightly even after they changed the qualifications. My unit still quals at 25 but we often expose guys to shooting out to 50 and even 100 yards.

If you practice good fundamentals shooting at distance can become routine.

[LMT42]

I need some instruction in this area. It seems every range has an instructor, but I suspect most aren't very good. Can anyone recommend someone in the Austin, Tx. area?

Please reply via private message, so I don't hijack the thread. Thanks.