View Full Version : California Restrictions?
So I have never purchased a gun in California before and seeing this is now where I live now, I'm now forced to buy here. I went in to the local shop and was looking to order a M&P9 FDE and was quickly asked if I know if thats legal. I looked at the guy like why would the color make it any less legal. So he made a quick call and came back to tell me it was in fact illegal and black or polished were my only options. Can anyone tell me if this shop is full of shit or speaking the truth? If true, is there a source that can tell me all the restrictions for handguns in California? I did about 20 mins of research and came up short with my answers. Thanks for your time.
F-Trooper05
02-10-11, 22:52
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
thank you
Doncha just love Kalifornia? :bad:
Doncha wish you could get away? :sarcastic:
DanjojoUSMC
02-10-11, 23:26
I'm finally leaving Cali after 8 1/2 years, can't wait :D
I was very surprised when I first got out here to learn that the two firearms I brought with me were not allowed to be sold in stores.
The guys in charge just want to bug the crap out of companies and their customers until the companies don't want to do business here, and potential customers lose desire to even be part of the gun culture at all. Companies have to pay to get a model on the list and supposedly safety-tested.
Have to pay full price for a neutered version of a pistol, while actual criminal types get the full-capacity models for $250-400 a piece straight from Nevada. It's a painful thing... :rolleyes:
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
that database and requisite system is laughable...sadly. I knew kalifornistan was draconian, but dear god.
that database and requisite system is laughable...sadly. I knew kalifornistan was draconian, but dear god.
Make no mistake, it's not about saving lives or preventing "bad" guns from entering the state; that list is simply in place to be one more barrier to prevent honest citizens from owning guns - and California enjoys extorting money from handgun companies.
Have to pay full price for a neutered version of a pistol, while actual criminal types get the full-capacity models for $250-400 a piece straight from Nevada. It's a painful thing... :rolleyes:
I didn't realize that, in addition to the guns that we Nevadans were supposedly sending to the criminals in Mexico, we were also sending guns to criminals in Kalifornia.
Littlelebowski
02-11-11, 06:09
I didn't realize that, in addition to the guns that we Nevadans were supposedly sending to the criminals in Mexico, we were also sending guns to criminals in Kalifornia.
We would appreciate it if you would stop raising gas prices as well.
Beat Trash
02-11-11, 07:10
I didn't realize that, in addition to the guns that we Nevadans were supposedly sending to the criminals in Mexico, we were also sending guns to criminals in Kalifornia.
Yes you are. Didn't you know you are supplying Mexican drug cartels with all of those full auto AK's, M4's and 40mm grenades?
You guy must have some really neat gun stores....
Yes you are. Didn't you know you are supplying Mexican drug cartels with all of those full auto AK's, M4's and 40mm grenades?
Yeah, no wonder Wally World is always out of stock on these items. :lol::lol::lol:
Droid, don't you know it's the same as a red car can go faster?
Yeah it sucks here. I'm a die heart HK fan, half the toys I want are "illegal" and the other half I have to pay near double for.
Anyway, good luck.
DanjojoUSMC
02-11-11, 10:10
I didn't realize that, in addition to the guns that we Nevadans were supposedly sending to the criminals in Mexico, we were also sending guns to criminals in Kalifornia.
Drive-thru weddings and Gun Stores :D
Im currently in Kalifornistan for a three week Combat Marksmanship Trainer course (ironic, right?) and im losing my ****ing mind. I hate this state even more than those stupid "fitted" flat rimmed hats, and that says alot for me.
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
On top of that:
Before you buy a handgun you have to take a test to get a "Handgun Safety Certificate."
You can only buy one handgun every 30 days.
You must perform a "Safe Handling Demonstration" every time you buy a handgun.
A firearm must come with, or you must provide proof that you've purchased in the previous 30 days, a state-approved "safety device" (usually a lock of some sort). Alternately you can fill out an affidavit stating that you own a qualifying gun safe, again every time you buy a gun.
There's a 10-day waiting period for all firearms.
Transfers of any firearm between private citizens must be done through a dealer, and are subject to the 10-day wait. They are not, however, subject to the 1-handgun-every-30-days rule.
I won't even get started on the "assault weapon" rules. You need a flowchart to make sense of that mess; see calguns.net for details.
Most of you from Free States are probably shaking your heads in disbelief at this nonsense. Almost all of the above restrictions have been put into place since 2000. The gun-banners in California figured out that outright bans don't fly, so they're instituting all these restrictions in the name of "safety." They've made it a huge pain in the ass to buy firearms, which has the desired effect of discouraging people from buying guns. The recent ammo bans are the same thing - there's no basis in reality for banning this stuff, the goal is to make it difficult to be a gun owner.
CumbiaDude
02-11-11, 22:07
The recent ammo bans are the same thing - there's no basis in reality for banning this stuff, the goal is to make it difficult to be a gun owner.I was gonna bring this up. The most recent ammo law (which would've required thumbprint and signature for any "pistol ammunition", whatever that is) was just struck down a month ago. Perhaps the tables are starting to turn? :)
All the other rules aside... if you really are dead set on an "off roster" handgun, you can do a "single-shot exemption" via a 07 FFL on just about any handgun out there, rostered or not.
Depending on your location, there are a few 07 FFLs in CA that do this regularly now.
In the SFBA, one option is Valkyrie Arms in Milpitas.
Good luck!
PS Be sure to check the CalGuns resources (esp the wiki) for other info. The forums are good, but they have the usual signal to noise problems that all forums do... ;)
Heartbreaker
02-11-11, 22:13
It's not illegal, hardly any handguns are in CA (only things like Tec-9s with mags outside the grip are outright illegal). If it didn't pass the drop test or the dealer didn't submit it (every color and variation has to go through the test which is absurdly expensive, so not all manufacturers opt to put all their models through) it can't be imported and sold through FFLs. They are perfectly legal to own though as long as it doesn't break any other CA laws, so you can transfer one via private party sale. If you can't find one on calguns classifieds your only chance would be to hope an LEO or out of state friend buys one and suddenly decides he doesn't like it.
Im currently in Kalifornistan for a three week Combat Marksmanship Trainer course (ironic, right?) and im losing my ****ing mind. I hate this state even more than those stupid "fitted" flat rimmed hats, and that says alot for me.
I'm a gunshine state native, there is no way in hell i could ever justify moving to the land of fruits, flakes, and nuts. Hell, I have 7 gun shops within 20 miles. Oh, and my "rightwing extremist" congressman ain't caucasian and it drives the liberals insane.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-11-11, 23:18
Please check out calguns when you get the chance. It'll really help you with the rules here.
yeah when will they get it? Its not about the color of ones skin, its about the color of ones blood!
SASS (Single-Action Shooting Society) help pass the bill that created the CA DOJ BOF approved list for handgun sales.
Once, they got an exemption for single-action revolvers they reversed their position from opposing it to supporting it.
Makes me want to punch a cowboy action shooter in the throat everytime I want to buy a non-approved listed handgun.
SASS (Single-Action Shooting Society) help pass the bill that created the CA DOJ BOF approved list for handgun sales.
Once, they got an exemption for single-action revolvers they reversed their position from opposing it to supporting it.
Makes me want to punch a cowboy action shooter in the throat everytime I want to buy a non-approved listed handgun.
Source for this info? This is the first time I have heard of that.
SASS (Single-Action Shooting Society) help pass the bill that created the CA DOJ BOF approved list for handgun sales.
Once, they got an exemption for single-action revolvers they reversed their position from opposing it to supporting it.
Makes me want to punch a cowboy action shooter in the throat everytime I want to buy a non-approved listed handgun.
Source for this info? This is the first time I have heard of that.
Yeah.... a few hundred members of a cowboy shooting group, were crucial in the passage of a sweeping handgun law........
:rolleyes:
Source for this info? This is the first time I have heard of that.
Go to CalGuns and do some searching. One of the primaries there has made mention of this numerous times as well as the M1/M14 high power crowd selling out the "poodle shooter" crowd with the AWB. In the latter case, it has come back to bite them on the ass as they are now getting their asses kicked by AR shooters. California gun groups have in the past been willing to sell out others in an effort to appear "reasonable" and get some Chamberlainesque assurance that their beloved "hobby" will not be affected.
This all just goes to show you that if gun owners don't stand together, they will hang together.
Yeah.... a few hundred members of a cowboy shooting group, were crucial in the passage of a sweeping handgun law........
:rolleyes:
Make that a few thousand and some PSA supporting passage. Which showed the CA legislature that CA gun owners were divided on gun control issues and that certain "pro-gun" groups could be paid off with exemptions to gun control laws favoring their group.
Go to CalGuns and do some searching. One of the primaries there has made mention of this numerous times as well as the M1/M14 high power crowd selling out the "poodle shooter" crowd with the AWB. In the latter case, it has come back to bite them on the ass as they are now getting their asses kicked by AR shooters. California gun groups have in the past been willing to sell out others in an effort to appear "reasonable" and get some Chamberlainesque assurance that their beloved "hobby" will not be affected.
This all just goes to show you that if gun owners don't stand together, they will hang together.
SASS stabbed CA gun owners in the back with their support of the approved list, hi-cap magazine ban and neutral stance on the assault weapon bans. In return, their cowboy guns were given exemptions.
Single-action revolvers = exempt from CA DOJ BOF approved list for handgun sales
Lever-action firearms = exempt from CA large capacity magazine ban
Well, Canadian gun laws aren't that bad compared to California. :rolleyes:
Make that a few thousand
When the "safe gun" law was passed there were a "few thousand" SASS members in CA?
Even if that were true, (which I doubt..), do you really believe that a shooting group with a few thousand members, has that much influence in the state?
Make that a few thousand and some PSA supporting passage. Which showed the CA legislature that CA gun owners were divided on gun control issues and that certain "pro-gun" groups could be paid off with exemptions to gun control laws favoring their group.
SASS stabbed CA gun owners in the back with their support of the approved list, hi-cap magazine ban and neutral stance on the assault weapon bans. In return, their cowboy guns were given exemptions.
Single-action revolvers = exempt from CA DOJ BOF approved list for handgun sales
Lever-action firearms = exempt from CA large capacity magazine ban
You keep making serious accusations, yet you've given no supporting information to prove it.
If you're basing it all on what someone said on Calguns, though there lots of good info there, there's also a crapload of downright BS posted there as well.
Before you keep reposting that here, why don't you actually link to some independent info, before you assassinate an entire organization?
Go to CalGuns and do some searching.
I did. So far I can only find multiple posts making the same unsupported claim, by a poster named "Quiet".
I did. So far I can only find multiple posts making the same unsupported claim, by a poster named "Quiet".
These accusations are made by, and backed up by, Bill Weiss. It is for all intents, public record.
Well, Canadian gun laws aren't that bad compared to California.
Well, I wouldn't say that. California as of late has passed some idiotic laws that make it a pain in the ass for shooters compared to free states, but I'd much rather deal with Kalifornia laws than the laws of states like New Jersey. California laws are a nuisance, but you won't ever see events like Brian Aitken. If you want to own a pistol, you just pass a stupid 3rd grade test, pick a gun from the approved list, and wait 10 days, and its yours. You don't need approval from you local law enforcement as you do in Canada. If you owned high capacity mags prior to 2000, you can keep and use them Also, self defense laws are pretty good. While not strictly a Castle Law state, there is no requirement to retreat and self defense is not criminal. Depending on where you live, carry permits range from impossible to almost easy to obtain.
These accusations are made by, and backed up by, Bill Weiss. It is for all intents, public record.
Guess I'm just not a fan of random attack posts, made with no links to factual information.
CumbiaDude
02-12-11, 22:41
Also, self defense laws are pretty good. While not strictly a Castle Law state, there is no requirement to retreat and self defense is not criminal.In fact, if you're in your home while it gets burgled, California law actually presumes you were in fear for your life. Basically you have to have some seriously hinky stuff between you and the defendant for law enforcement to even raise an eyebrow.
In fact, if you're in your home while it gets burgled, California law actually presumes you were in fear for your life. Basically you have to have some seriously hinky stuff between you and the defendant for law enforcement to even raise an eyebrow.
Just avoid shooting him in the back or letting him get back outside. When I lived there I was told that either of those two actions would throw the self-defense idea out the window in most juror's minds and lawyers will definitely not like it. Reloading your weapon almost always resulted in being charged with murder by showing intent, regardless of a round being fired from the second mag. My understanding is that, in most states, the police academy teaches to reload after an engagement ends or hits a low to ensure that you are still aware of how many rounds you are holding. Better to have a fresh mag with a known number of rounds than trying to remember if you squeezed off 5 or 6 rounds. For non-LEO's, this habit in Cali would get some people in trouble.
Reloading your weapon almost always resulted in being charged with murder by showing intent, regardless of a round being fired from the second mag.
Where did you hear this drivel?
Where did you hear this drivel?
LEO's with the Anaheim PD. Charged doesn't necessarily mean convicted, but definitely a hassle.
LEO's with the Anaheim PD. Charged doesn't necessarily mean convicted, but definitely a hassle.
It was drivel, or you misunderstood their "theory" for actual policy/experience.
G34Shooter
02-13-11, 10:19
Well, Canadian gun laws aren't that bad compared to California. :rolleyes:
Really? Do you have a Concealed Weapons Permit? ;)
G34Shooter
02-13-11, 10:25
Just avoid shooting him in the back or letting him get back outside. When I lived there I was told that either of those two actions would throw the self-defense idea out the window in most juror's minds and lawyers will definitely not like it. Reloading your weapon almost always resulted in being charged with murder by showing intent, regardless of a round being fired from the second mag. My understanding is that, in most states, the police academy teaches to reload after an engagement ends or hits a low to ensure that you are still aware of how many rounds you are holding. Better to have a fresh mag with a known number of rounds than trying to remember if you squeezed off 5 or 6 rounds. For non-LEO's, this habit in Cali would get some people in trouble.
So to avoid picking your post apart, I'll just post the actual laws:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf
The laws here are bad, but not as bad as many here claim that are 3rd or 4th hand incorrect info at best.
These accusations are made by, and backed up by, Bill Weiss. It is for all intents, public record.
Well, I wouldn't say that. California as of late has passed some idiotic laws that make it a pain in the ass for shooters compared to free states, but I'd much rather deal with Kalifornia laws than the laws of states like New Jersey. California laws are a nuisance, but you won't ever see events like Brian Aitken. If you want to own a pistol, you just pass a stupid 3rd grade test, pick a gun from the approved list, and wait 10 days, and its yours. You don't need approval from you local law enforcement as you do in Canada. If you owned high capacity mags prior to 2000, you can keep and use them Also, self defense laws are pretty good. While not strictly a Castle Law state, there is no requirement to retreat and self defense is not criminal. Depending on where you live, carry permits range from impossible to almost easy to obtain.
We don't. In Canada we have what is called non-restricted and restricted permits and class of firearms. Basically rifles and shotguns are non-restricted, while handguns, AR-15's, and some other short rifles like the Swiss Arms CQB are restricted. You take a class for your non-res permit, fill paperwork (that asks you WAY too many personnal questions), send it to the Canadian Firearms Center and in 40 days you get your permit, which is renewed every 5 years. With it you can buy any rifle or shotgun you want, you walk in the store, 5 min later your firearm is transfered, papwerwork is filled and you walk out with it. With restricted firearms you take another class, to add the restricted class to your permit, send the paperwork etc. Now you can buy any handgun (with a barrel over 4,1" I might add, under that and it's a prohib, people grandfathered with 12(6) permits can still own, sell and shoot them). It is transferred in a matter of days, normally less than a week, and is sent to you by mail from wherever you bought it from, or you can apply for a periodic authorisation to transport. We have what is called an ATT permit (authorisation to transport) for restricteds, which basically allows you to transport your restricteds from your house to the range and back. Retarded socialist provinces like Quebec (where I unfortunately live) have other retarded laws, you need to apply for a different ATT for each range you will go (you need to be a member, too which is $$$), and is renewed each year along with the club membership. We have another retarded law since 2009, law 9 which means you need to pass another class, to get another permit, to prove you can safely shoot restricteds and to apply for it you need to go to the local police station and have an officer sign a form that basically declares you "sane".... Well as you may know all this costs $$$, and a lot of time.
In the end we can not defend ourselves against an attacker in our homes without having the entire authorities against us. The last man who defended himself was with his revolver, shot some ****tards who were throwing molotov cocktails on his house with him inside, and the end result was ALL his firearms confiscated, permits suspended, home trashed up by the authorities, he pretty much got charged with the most retarded things you can imagine happening only in an authoritarian totalitarist country...he and almost every person who used a firearm to defend his life in the past lost everything. It is sloooowly changing, thanks to the CSSA (Canadian Shooting Sports Association).That's what we get in Canada when we defend ourselves, WE go in prison, WE lose all our rights, and the criminals and authorities sue you and get away with it.
That's pretty much it... oh yeah, semi-automatic rifles can only fire 5 round mags (30 pinned to 5) and handguns 10 rounds... and I agree I'd rather live somewhere where carrying is allowed, or in my case Alberta the only conservative province left... so in the end Canada is ****ed up big time. :rolleyes:
We don't. In Canada we have what is called non-restricted and restricted permits and class of firearms. Basically rifles and shotguns are non-restricted, while handguns, AR-15's, and some other short rifles like the Swiss Arms CQB are restricted. You take a class for your non-res permit, fill paperwork (that asks you WAY too many personnal questions), send it to the Canadian Firearms Center and in 40 days you get your permit, which is renewed every 5 years. With it you can buy any rifle or shotgun you want, you walk in the store, 5 min later your firearm is transfered, papwerwork is filled and you walk out with it. With restricted firearms you take another class, to add the restricted class to your permit, send the paperwork etc. Now you can buy any handgun (with a barrel over 4,1" I might add, under that and it's a prohib, people grandfathered with 12(6) permits can still own, sell and shoot them). It is transferred in a matter of days, normally less than a week, and is sent to you by mail from wherever you bought it from, or you can apply for a periodic authorisation to transport. We have what is called an ATT permit (authorisation to transport) for restricteds, which basically allows you to transport your restricteds from your house to the range and back. Retarded socialist provinces like Quebec (where I unfortunately live) have other retarded laws, you need to apply for a different ATT for each range you will go (you need to be a member, too which is $$$), and is renewed each year along with the club membership. We have another retarded law since 2009, law 9 which means you need to pass another class, to get another permit, to prove you can safely shoot restricteds. Well as you may know all this costs $$$, and a lot of time.
In the end we can not defend ourselves against an attacker in our homes without having the entire authorities against us. The last man who defended himself was with his revolver, shot some ****tards who were throwing molotov cocktails on his house with him inside, and the end result was ALL his firearms confiscated, permits suspended, home trashed up by the authorities, he pretty much lost everything... because he defended his life. That's what we get in Canada when we defend ourselves, WE go in prison, WE lose our rights, and the criminals and authorities sue you and get away with it.
That's pretty much it... oh yeah, semi-automatic rifles can only fire 5 round mags (30 pinned to 5) and handguns 10 rounds... and I agree I'd rather live somewhere where carrying is allowed... so in the end Canada is ****ed up. :rolleyes:
Thanks for the clarification, I was under the understanding that you needed local law enforcement approval to own a Restricted firearm (Handgun). I did know that certain military semi-autos are non-restricted which in that sense makes Canada better than Kalifornia, but overall I would much rather be a gunnie in Kalifornia than Canada.
Still, as bad as it is in Canada, you guys are really one of the best countries out there as far as letting subjects possess firearms.
G34Shooter
02-13-11, 10:54
Thanks for the clarification, I was under the understanding that you needed local law enforcement approval to own a Restricted firearm (Handgun). I did know that certain military semi-autos are non-restricted which in that sense makes Canada better than Kalifornia, but overall I would much rather be a gunnie in Kalifornia than Canada.
Still, as bad as it is in Canada, you guys are really one of the best countries out there as far as letting subjects possess firearms.
What good is posessing cool firearms that you can't even use to defend your life if you need to? :dance3:
It was drivel, or you misunderstood their "theory" for actual policy/experience.
I said "I was told" which pretty much spells out that I am not a lawyer and the info may not be 100% correct. This was also several years ago.
G34Shooter
02-13-11, 11:07
I said "I was told" which pretty much spells out that I am not a lawyer and the info may not be 100% correct. This was also several years ago.
Ask 100 cops the same question, you get 100 different answers. I posted the actual laws of the state that I reside and carry in. Maybe it's a better idea not to spread that nonsense that "you were told" as it is B.S.
Thanks for the clarification, I was under the understanding that you needed local law enforcement approval to own a Restricted firearm (Handgun). I did know that certain military semi-autos are non-restricted which in that sense makes Canada better than Kalifornia, but overall I would much rather be a gunnie in Kalifornia than Canada.
Still, as bad as it is in Canada, you guys are really one of the best countries out there as far as letting subjects possess firearms.
See my Edit, I clarified that in the province of Quebec you do need to get local law enforcement's approval to own restricted forearms.
What's really bad here is that those who know firearms laws the least are those who are supposed to enforce it... which is why all this nonsense happens when a legal gun owner defends himself, even if he uses a baseball bat he's gonna get all his firearms confiscated and put away somewhere, where some of these guns "disappear" or take a salt water bath... you can see the big picture.
But don't be fooled, canadian gun owners would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. The storing laws are draconian, but when you're at home your firearms are not considered being stored anymore, but in use.
It basically means that most gun owners have at least one gun ready to go when they're at home, unloaded, but ready to go in seconds. That's the most we can do.
What good is posessing cool firearms that you can't even use to defend your life if you need to? :dance3:
ABSOLUTELY!!!
That is really the crux of the whole issue. Despite the issues in Kalifornia, self defense is still legal. It seems in most other parts of the world, including Canada, that job is only for appointed government officials. :(
What's really bad here is that those who know firearms laws the least are those who are supposed to enforce it...
That is the same here. The dumbass who pushed the (now declared unconstitutional) handgun ammo law in Kalifornia is now pushing another law to get rid of bullets designed to penetrate body armor. Idiot doesn't even realize that AP handgun ammo is banned at the federal level and just about any centerfire rifle cartridge will penetrate soft armor. He knows nothing about guns, and neither does most of the Kalifornia legislature, but they keep on passing laws about them.
That is the same here. The dumbass who pushed the (now declared unconstitutional) handgun ammo law in Kalifornia is now pushing another law to get rid of bullets designed to penetrate body armor. Idiot doesn't even realize that AP handgun ammo is banned at the federal level and just about any centerfire rifle cartridge will penetrate soft armor. He knows nothing about guns, and neither does most of the Kalifornia legislature, but they keep on passing laws about them.
Well, in some ways we deal with the same shit, ignorant people in power who fear inanimate objects in honest citizens's hands pass retarded laws only to discourage us from owning guns. It's politics, just politics. The general public knows ****-all about guns, they don't even know guns don't pull their own trigger, they don't know guns need ammunition to work, heck they don't even know long guns, handguns and scary black guns are legal to own for licenced individuals, and they think semi-auto means full-auto. They don't know that not a single legal gun owner commit a crime this year or last year in Canada, no murder, nothing.
That way the general public thinks politicians protect them by passing new retarded laws.
It's a god damn nightmare... just with the Arizona shooting we heard all shorts of bullshit from the media that would turn you crazy. :mad:
I grew up in CA, and left when I entered the service when I was 21 years old, back in the 70s. At that time you could buy firearms in regular chain department stores. I have lived in AZ since, but most of my family still resides in southern CA, some of whom are gun fanciers.
They talk about large businesses leaving CA, due to it's oppressive taxes and regulations. This isn't recent. CA has consistently moved far left since the at least the 60s, and hasn't stopped. So how has CA's government dealt with the loss of a significant portion of it's tax base, over the years? Of course, they repeatedly raised taxes on everyone else, to the highest levels in the country, causing more businesses and people to leave.
In the last few years people across the country have begun to wake up, which was especially evidenced by the last election. As the bulk of the citizens of our country have started to change their mindset, the bulk of CA voters have not. They have had the chance to change their leadership's ideology, especially over the last decade, but have chosen not to do so. This does not bode well for the relatively few conservative thinking citizens who remain living there. Especially those of the "younger generation" who believe things will get better before they themselves are "old."
Having said all that, would I ever move back? Under no circumstances would I. Gun ownership is just one aspect of living with a decent amount of freedom. As I have advised my relatives, CA is not going to change anytime in the foreseeable future. Unfortunately, the only truly workable solution is for people to move to a state where personal freedom actually means something, so they can enjoy it before they are old and gray.
Sorry for going somewhat off-topic, but the core issue revolves around the issues above. Sometimes we are forced to face hard decisions, which will effect our lives and those of our families.
all politics aside... CA is a beautiful state to live in... not sure I'd want to live anywhere else for various reasons. we take a lot of things for granted out here. :D
i won't argue that the political machine in CA isn't completely jacked up though... it's a good example of how NOT to do things (and not just the firearms laws). :(
to anyone who has to deal with CA firearms laws, definitely check out the CalGuns (http://www.calguns.net/) and CRPA (http://www.crpa.org/) resources -- they are top notch. :agree:
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