View Full Version : Rehashing an old question on XS Sights - Any new user feedback?
I've been looking lately at XS sights, with the thought of potentially putting them on my handgun when the budget allows. I've read the older posts on here, most of which are two years old, on forum members' user feedback on the XS sights, and I can't help but wonder if there are more recent observations to add to my consideration.
With that said, are there any of you out there now who are currently using the XS sights, or who have used them lately, who have any recent feedback to offer? As usual, the more context you can provide, the better (i.e., "I've used XS sights for the last two years on my HK 99, with 25000 rounds fired under x circumstances, and have the following observations--good and/or bad--to offer...). If you don't have first-hand experience and feedback, I appreciate both your opinion and your right to offer it, but would ask you to respectfully bow out of providing "feedback;" I've read enough on both sides of the equation, both on this site and others, to understand the different schools of thought, and am just looking for recent first-person user feedback.
Thanks.
F-Trooper05
02-12-11, 23:59
Todd G. wrote up a summary giving his opinion on XS sights a while back, and it pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about them...
http://pistol-training.com/archives/2140
Thanks for the initial feedback, and for the reference. I believe you had good intentions. That said, and at the risk of sounding ungrateful or condescending (neither of which is my intent), I'd already read Todd G's opinion (which I respect) as well as the numerous threads on other forums. What I'm looking for is the recent "I personally tried them in this configuration/context and loved/hated them for the following reasons..." rather than the "somebody else said and I feel the same way, too..." kind of feedback. In other words, the real-world user feedback that will fill in the blanks of the last two years (a long time in modern firearm years) that they've been on the market, and that will address reliability of the recently-sold product(s).
Thanks again, though.
The benefit you'll get from XS sights is dependent on your skill level.
imo they are hands down the best sights made for quickly getting shooters up to 90% of their ability level.
Once the shooter is taught how to properly use XS sights it greatly simplifies the whole "sight alignment/sight picture/aiming" concept.
The XS sights give "good enough" visual feedback with little conscious effort on the shooters part that the shooter can give more attention to trigger control and grip.
Considering the vast majority of shooting errors are mental (flinch), trigger control and/or grip related this accelerates the learning curve.
The benefit you get from XS sights is on a curve as well.
Once the shooter has reached the level where their trigger control and grip are excellent and the mental aspects (flinch, anticipation, etc) of shooting are no longer an issue then the benefits of XS taper off and will actually become a detriment to progression.
If after an honest evaluation of your shooting reveals you need to improve you grip, trigger control and if you occasionally flinch or have other mental shooting errors then XS will probably be of benefit.
If you're at the skill level where you can consistently make a IPSC "A" headshot from concealed at 10 yards in under 2 seconds then XS sights are probably going to hold you back.
You'll find those that love and hate them. The only thing you can do is buy a set, and give them a go. If they work for you, rock on. If they do not, sell them for a bit of a loss to someone who is in the same boat you were in.
What I find funny are those that slam a particular sight type, but then they say its a personal choice(it is). Hence why I say you need to find out for yourself with your own experience and not rely on others.
I have some guns equipped with XS Sights, but most are not. I prefer them on small guns, and my own jury is still out on them on my AK.
i had em on my g26 for awhile. i think they suck.
They offer very little in the way of precision over point shooting up close, (and point shooting is always faster than using the sights) and they decisively handicap your long range accuracy and speed.
I've had 4 sets over the past 5.5 years, they're all gone now. I think that Jody has some excellent points, but I'll add my .02 kopeks to the mix.
You should always be able to outshoot your weapon. If you can't then you're shooting up to the weapons potential and not your potential.
The reality is that its really not to hard to push XS sights to the point where their crude/large sight picture is a liability. Is it possible to force them to 'make do' or to 'limp along' with them? Sure, but you'll put far more effort, ammo and time into them to become proficient than you would to take set of Partridge type set of sights and get started.
If you look at the top of the top, military, law enforcement, competition, etc, none of them are using XS dot type sights. They simply aren't as good past a certain level of skill.
yhmspecter
02-13-11, 16:03
I was looking at these sights but everything said here makes sense...thanks for saving the 100 bucks for me
They simply aren't as good past a certain level of skill.
The thing is, 95% of the shooters out there are well below the threshold of diminishing returns on XS sights.
The thing is, 95% of the shooters out there are well below the threshold of diminishing returns on XS sights.
When you hear a repeated statement over and over that almost always starts with 'Historically, people have not done as well with XS sights' and its coming from the same level of trainers over and over, Howe, Green, McNamara, Hackathorn, etc, you start to see a trend.
The police call that a 'clue'.
Even simple timed standards like the 25m standing to kneeling from CSAT tends to completely stymie XS sight users. I've seen it first hand. If you're at 3yds with Big Dots and no time limit, its easy to look like a stud when you hear that 'fight' command:rolleyes:.
Even simple timed standards like the 25m standing to kneeling from CSAT
The above quote is why XS sights are often maligned by experienced shooters.
You are seeing things from the perspective of an accomplished, experienced shooter.
One of the 5% that are held back by XS sights.
The majority of students I see in training classes, even advanced level classes would not consider a 25m pistol shot as being "simple".
You may think it's simple, I consider it an easy shot, but for most shooters it's an improbable if not impossible shot.
And it's not their choice of sights that's holding them back.
Spent the entirety of 2008 and a little bit of 2009 shooting big dots on my M&P 9mm.
At the time i thought they were fantastic as i bought into the whole "gunfighter" concept since i was a new shooter. I figured they were the worlds greatest, defensive sights since they were designed for "shooting bad guys" and not target shooting.
A few classes later and well, today i shoot a mix of Warren, Dawson and 10-8 sights.
The problem with XS sights is that you gain a large front sight yet sacrifice a HUGE amount of precision for absolutely no reason other than the fact that supposedly, the sighting system was designed by Zeus himself and apparently enables the shooter to hurl lightening bolts at his attackers.
You can get the same effect yet lose ZERO precision by simply installing a set of Ameriglo Hackathorn sights. Large front, large notch, decent light bar ratio and the ability to actually consistently hit on the vertical axis.
As ive evolved as a "shooter" ive slowly moved towards very thin fiber optic sights. At distance i can make very accurate hits with a very visible reference point and up close, its mostly instinctive shooting or shooting from retention anyway so why the hell do i need to get wrapped up around "golf balls" and non existent rear sights?
You give up way too much to gain nothing.
You should always be able to outshoot your weapon. If you can't then you're shooting up to the weapons potential and not your potential.
Are you telling me that you personally can outshoot the mechanical accuracy of every firearm you own?
That it's the gun that's the weak link in your performance?
I'm just your average guy, and average pistol shot. I think they blow; hard.
I suppose that makes me super-conservative, or old-fashioned, or un-enlightened.
I can also get hits using the edge of the slide as a "sight", and I've shot the ultra-compact Kimber 45 with a gutter sight. They are good enough too, but don't fit with my training or objectives when I shoot.
All that being said, if someone had them, liked them, and was effective with them. Then rock the 'F' on....:neo: Who am I to say that a person shouldn't use them?
However, if you suck with them, expect to hear about it. Especially if you suck worse than my pistol skills. :jester:
When you hear a repeated statement over and over that almost always starts with 'Historically, people have not done as well with XS sights' and its coming from the same level of trainers over and over, Howe, Green, McNamara, Hackathorn, etc, you start to see a trend.
The police call that a 'clue'.
Even simple timed standards like the 25m standing to kneeling from CSAT tends to completely stymie XS sight users. I've seen it first hand. If you're at 3yds with Big Dots and no time limit, its easy to look like a stud when you hear that 'fight' command:rolleyes:.
at 3 yards you don't even need sights. which i understand is your point :)
The majority of students I see in training classes, even advanced level classes would not consider a 25m pistol shot as being "simple".
You may think it's simple, I consider it an easy shot, but for most shooters it's an improbable if not impossible shot.
Paul requires that the 25m shot be taught as part of his standards to his students and as a skill by his instructor candidates. In our class we had two otherwise capable shooters that the big dots were holding back. Why start someone with a system that they may be capable of outgrowing rapidly with proper instruction?
As for outshooting my platform, to paraphrase Dan Flowers, if everything I have is the best that I can obtain and I miss the shot, I know the weak link in the chain was me and not the gear I was running.
I shot quite a bit(about a year) with Big Dots on a Glock.
Stupid idea. Those sights are not good for much.
Easy to see, sure, but hard to align and the vague sight picture is hard to repeat.
I shot quite a bit(about a year) with Big Dots on a Glock.
Stupid idea. Those sights are not good for much.
Easy to see, sure, but hard to align and the vague sight picture is hard to repeat.
that was my beef. i took time to carefully align the sights i could get an accurate shot off, but the visual cues to when the sights were aligned were actually a lot more subtle than they are with standard notch and post sights. If i'm shooting from misaligned sights i'd like to know it. If i have time to line up the sights i'd like to get the best accuracy i can.
outrider627
02-14-11, 02:50
All this hate for XS sights, is it focused on the big dot or the standard? I have not shot a pistol equipped with the standard XS package, but I have handled a couple with a XS standard front and a 10-8 rear sight. I did like the sight picture. I just need to the funds to fix my 1911 or buy a Glock and then try out the XS/10-8 combo after some trigger time.
John_Wayne777
02-14-11, 07:01
The majority of students I see in training classes, even advanced level classes would not consider a 25m pistol shot as being "simple".
That gets into the thorny arena of philosophy. I did a 5 day class with Tiger Swan taught by Kyle Defoor and the pistol instruction for that class started at 25 yards on an NRA bullseye. The theory was that 25 yards on small targets enforces fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control. Many people do not consider 25 yard precision shots to be simple, but there are some very experienced people/outfits out there teaching it as a fundamental skill and they seem do do pretty well with it.
And it's not their choice of sights that's holding them back.
I would have to disagree with that partially...yes, lots of people suck and it's not like dropping a new sight on the pistol will make them unsuck.
...but at the same time learning to manage a sight picture is a significant stumbling block for a lot of shooters. Using myself as an example, I had the concept of trigger control down to the Analysis level (from Bloom's taxonomy of learning) far before I had even a Comprehension level of understanding about managing sights. I've been on the range with not a few other shooters with a similar diagnosis.
Once someone gets to the point that they understand precision can be achieved with a pistol (even at speed) and then they develop enough initiative to pursue that goal they've begun on a path that will probably only be made more difficult by using the XS style sighting system. While there are some people who seem to perform very well with XS sights, the primary benefit for many seems to be that they end up with a somewhat lower level of suck since they cram a big lollipop that's hard to completely miss even if the person behind the trigger is doing everything wrong from an aiming perspective.
All this hate for XS sights, is it focused on the big dot or the standard?
My personal beef with the standard XS BD setup (XS rear, XS Big Dot front) is that the rear sight offers little useful feedback when you are trying to make a precise shot, and the front sight looks so big on a small target it feels like you're trying to aim with a beach-ball. Now if you get the front sight centered exactly in the shallow V of the rear notch and you're able to get the 12:00 position on the beach ball exactly lined up with the target and you execute a clean trigger press, you can hit exactly what you were aiming at.
Doing that, however, takes me much longer than even using a N&P sight setup with a wide rear notch. (Wide rear notches are fast up close but leave more room for slight misalignment when you are shooting for precision) Even when I tried to get the most precise sight picture possible I found that often I was misaligning the sights ever so slightly and as a result was getting dismal accuracy on bullseye. Often one hears that XS sights are not designed to be bullseye sights...but the same characteristics that made it difficult for me to use the sights for slowfire bullseye were an even bigger pain in the neck when it came to trying to use the sights at speed.
On a wide open target at close range it wasn't ever a problem...but if I tried to do a sub 2 second draw from concealment and hit on a 3" circle at 7 yards I was either missing the time standard because it took too long for me to get a sight picture that would work, or I was throwing rounds all over the place because the sight picture wasn't refined enough inside the 2 second time limit to get a decent hit. By contrast, with even wide notch sights like the Warrens or Heinies I typically do a draw from concealment and hit on a 2" circle in under 1.8 seconds. With the XS system installed I just wasn't getting the visual feedback to consistently hit the target in a reasonable timeframe.
I gave the XS sights the old college try and was hoping they would deliver. I have some eyesight issues that I was hoping they could help compensate for...but even with my screwed up vision they were a hindrance and not a help.
ChicagoTex
02-14-11, 07:01
This thread honestly makes no sense to me. Why would anything have changed in the past two years?
The reason XS Sights are rarely discussed anymore is because the fad is over and most shooters have found them lacking and replaced them.
Over the years I have had serious problems with running standard sights due to eye ball issues.
Corrected, my eye sight at distance is better than 20-10, I can see small shit WAAAAY out there, but my sights are really fuzzy up close.
I started on the job with the red ramp style front sight on a .357mag, no issues when I was 21 years old, went to Meprolights when those became available for my S&W 5906 (some of us pre-date tritium sights, weird, I know).
Over the years I tried several other sight set-ups, eventually had a chance to try the XS 24/7 Big Dots. First time I ran them I dropped two mags from a G17 onto a 3/4 IPSC style steel plate at the 50 yard line, with one miss. I was sold that they were a workable system.
I installed the BDs on my S&Ws and carried those at work for several years, eventually staying with those sights on my Glocks when we transitioned to a new duty weapon.
I found that I could get hits out to 125 yards (about as far back as our range goes) if I used the tritium dot and strip as my fine alignment points on the sights, and just ran the BD on target from the 15 on in.
One day another one of our firearms instructors and I are debating what is more important; sight picture (especially considering the folks who like to scream "FRONT SIGHT" at people to cure all shooting issues) or good trigger control?
My position is that too many beginning shooters jerk the living shit out of the trigger while chasing that perfect sight picture, an observation made during many police recruit classes and trips to Army ranges.
So, we try an experiment to counter balance what we normally do during a qual; we have a confiscated G19 that is rather F'd up, we knock the factory sights off of it and run the qual, no sights at all, just crude alignment and good trigger control.
We both shoot a 100% on the qual.
I make note that my group isn't much bigger than what I shoot when using my BDs at speed.
Hmmmmmmm.................
I start doing more searching. Talk to a couple of guys on 10-8 ref "Old Guy Sights" (wide notch with a rounded bottom, small dot front sight), and stumble on an article ref the width of the rear sight notch and how it relates to exit pupil on scopes, and how this relates to low-light and/or aging eye balls.
More Hmmmmm........
I am blessed with having multiple G17s, so I am able to try several sets of different sights during the same range sessions and drills over the space of a few months.
I end up trying the orange front and wider notch rear Ameriglo sights. I run accuracy tests on myself against several other sights, and put things on the timer.
I now carry the Ameriglos on my duty G17 and off-duty G19, also on my AA .22 kit and my gen 4 G17 which is mainly a match gun for now.
I am saving up to convert all of my Glock to the Ameriglo sights.
Why? Because I am just as fast up close as I was with the BDs, I have slightly more precision on small targets up close and big targets way out there, but the precision comes MUCH faster with the Ameriglo sights.
I found that I could get the hits with the BDs, but getting things lined up took quite a bit longer than with post and notch style sights.
So, who wants to buy several sets of used 24/7 Big Dots?
I haven't tried the big dots but I do like my 24/7 standard dots. Find a good deal and try them for yourself. They don't seem to work the best for the other members here but that doesn't mean they won't work for you.
tpd223: Are you using a straight painted-dot front sight (no tritium insert)? Square or round painted dot?
tpd223, thanks for your post. Some good thoughts there.
I'm 56 years old and presbyopia is a bitch. I know it is hard for some of the young studs on here to fathom, but with this condition the rear sight is so fuzzy it is impossible to get a precision sight picture.
I switched to Big Dots last year. They work better for my situation. I am a civilian and in the context of Concealed Carry, I figure the odds are that if I had call for serious use, then things would likely be close and maybe quick. I find BD's very good for close up. That said, if my eyes were not a limitation, I might have different sights.
As you point out, if the dot and stripe are used a reference, then results are better on the longer shots. The shallow "v" of the rear sight does not give you much reference. Some folks have tried the Novak Half Ghost Ring rear with BD's and reported good results. I am tempted to try that.
I found it most interesting your experiment with sights off that Glock. Historical fact- Applegate, of WW2 OSS fame, minimized the use and utility of sights.
Your observations on trigger control resonate pretty strong for me.
Stay safe.
tpd223: Are you using a straight painted-dot front sight (no tritium insert)? Square or round painted dot?
Yellow tritium two dot rear. I have both the square and the round insert orange front sights, haven't noted much difference in the speed of pick-up.
Except on the .22, those are the non-tritium sights.
In my opinion..
I think if you are going to ask the question 'Are big big dots worth it?' you first have to define what you're looking for out of your sights. If you want a general purpose sights to work over a wide variety of circumstances I think there are better sights out there. As a home defense sight I am quite happy with them.
Last time I took my Glock out I put up a piece of steel, maybe about 1'x1', and took shots at ~109yds (laser range finder). With an adjustable notch and post sight I am normally around a 70% hit rate at 100yds. With the XS BD I was closer to 20% and shots were slower to come.
But I moved up to maybe about 25yds the XS BDs let me make hits almost as fast as I could work the trigger. With normal sights I'm a bit slower.
So for me the XS BD will stay on my nightstand gun. I will give them a try at the next GSSF match I make it to as well and see how it compares to previous scores.
I believe many people are missing the point of the big dot sights which is in a real violent encounter most people will focus their attention on the threat not their front sight. In this situation the big dot sight is easier to index on target than most other sights. Next time your at the range take a photo realistic target or better a 3D target and go through a draw and engage scenario while focussing your vision on the target letting the front sight go out of focus. In this scenario it is still possible to index the big dot sight on the target for a better hit probability. If you are target shooting big dots make no sense but I believe they have real value when reacting to a life or death situation involving target fixation etc.
Uhhhh...what?
Instinctive shooting is instinctive shooting. Sighted fire is sighted fire. You either have a sight picture or you don't. Any other sight is going to appear blurry just the same as an xs sight when you're threat focused.
The fact that your front sight is larger doesn't mean Jack all when you're NOT intentionally focusing on it.
Your entire post sounds like you bought into the whole gun fighting marketing stupidity that I despise so very much about those sights as it is nothing but pure hype.
If you want real gunfighting sights buy a god damned crimson trace laser. :D
Magsz... bad day?
Everyone on this forum has a right to express their opinion, but respectful disagreement and rational arguments carry more weight than just saying something is "bad" or "wrong".
There is a legitimate and compelling argument for sighted fire over "instinctive" fire. Sighted fire is most accurate. Period. No argument.
There can be circumstances however, in which one technique or tool might work better than the other. We have only to watch some dash-cam footage of some LEO's to see what can reasonable be termed from observation as point/instinctive shooting taking place in the real world. In such a chaotic situation, in which you do not control the time aspect, a large & highly visible front sight makes sense to me.
Big Dot sights do not preclude sighted fire. They are not optimized for precision fire. They trade precision for speed. They are a tool and as such should be chosen or rejected on their merits to do your job. It's an individual choice... like blonde, brunette, or redhead.
Oh, i agree and respect peoples opinions but i have a marked lack of patience for people whose opinions are grounded in illogical thought or just completely bass ackwards. :) Im not directly correlating this comment to the above posters words, more in general towards the argument itself.
Why go with a larger XS front when you could accomplish the SAME thing, ie a larger object to focus on, or at least get a soft focus on while still retaining a traditional rear sight that allows MORE precision than XS sights could ever muster?
The Hackathorn sights come to mind in this instance.
Why fight your gear? You're already fending off someone fighting you...
"Why go with a larger XS front when you could accomplish the SAME thing, ie a larger object to focus on, or at least get a soft focus on while still retaining a traditional rear sight that allows MORE precision than XS sights could ever muster?"
That resonates for me; i.e. a bigger/higher contrast dot front than typical, but maybe not so big as a Big Dot.
The XS Standard Dot front is a good size (as is the Hackathorn). When combined with wide notch rear or even better, a rear with curved bottom notch such as 10-8 sights or the new Trijicon HD sights, you may be getting that sweet spot of better speed without giving up too much precision.
The Big Dot rear sight could benefit with more reference/ index points in my opinion. I'd prefer something more akin to the old semi-buckhorn, than the straight shallow "v".
post script- After this post I pulled my P30 (with Big Dots) out of the safe to look at again in light of this thread. Again, I have presbyopia so any rear sight will be fuzzy for me. But I really have more issue with the rear than the size of the front. Big or Standard front is a personal call. But the shallow "v" rear is the real limitation for shots over 10-15 yards in my opinion. The vertical stripe on the rear for "dotting the i" is the principal reference. If not for that stripe, it would very difficult to align the sights.
The Hackathorn sights come to mind in this instance.
IMHO, these sights offer all of the benefits that the big dots offer without any of the draw backs.
To the OP, check them out, they are worth the look. Very fast and easily usable out to 100 yds +...
I used the Big Dots for a while for a few reasons.
1. I shoot well with them somehow.
2. I'm pretty much blind without vision correction. I can see the big white dot without glasses. I put the fuzzy white blur on the evil bad guy blur and can get good hits. The stacked dot configuration works for me in the dark, also, and again without glasses. I was betting on the worst-case scenario, i.e. SHTF and glasses/contacts are lost or no time to put them on.
3. They're sold as a complete set with no mixing and matching necessary.
That said...I've been transitioning over to the M&P from a Glock 19, and my M&P will probably get some variation of the Heine Straight 8 concept (maybe keeping a smaller white/tritium dot). I tried the Straight 8's on the 19 with good results, and I'm willing to re-evaluate the SHTF scenario a bit. I'll get better precision at range in daylight, and not lose anything in the dark due to the same stacked dot principle. Also, through general learning/growing up/better research I now know that it's well worth mixing and matching sights to get the absolute best solution for you as a shooter. Many of the popular combinations are now available as a set, too, so that's not an issue anymore.
So...no more Big-Dots in any case.
LDM.
Please note my distaste for these sights takes the whole package into consideration.
I do not begrudge someone enjoying the huge front sight in conjunction with a standard notch style rear.
My real gripe comes into play when you consider the front coupled with that sorry excuse for a rear sight.
Its the theory behind the sights themselves that i take issue with, and the execution of the rear, not necessarily the size of the front so please dont think im attacking guys with bad eyes here. ;)
FWIW while I'm waiting for their arrival to check out the new Trij HD sights at my local retail establishment, I cobbled together a combo of spare sight parts for a new G17 RTF2 (fish gills and all).
I paired a XS Big Dot with a Warren Sevigny black steel rear (wide) just for kicks to see how they worked together.
Good match. The BD almost fills the rear notch. Elevation match suprised me. It's perfect. Allows me to use the BD like a post front and use 12 o'clock as point of impact. The combo has delivered some superb groups at 15-20 yds so far.
And of course it's got that big dot speed on the really close stuff.
I was just playing with the combo and eureka! ;) Not sure if I'm keeping it that way. Daily carry G26 or G19 have the Warren Combat and Warren Sevigny complete sets. Which are great.
Magsz, I'm sorry, I did not mean to set you off, just threw my opinion out there to see what others thought. I am not an expert that is why I am on this Forum, learning from experts. My experience has been when shooting realistic targets and or force on force training with Simunitions / Code Eagle type ammo it is easy to fixate on the target or threat / weapon. Often the rounds fired will actually hit the attackers weapon. I am not saying that is what should happen it just often does. It is hard for the average person to not focus on the threat. Maybe the big dots are good for novice or less experienced shooters. I should add I use the big dot front sights on snub nose revolvers and on most of mine there really is no rear sight. I do plan on checking out some of the other sights mentioned in this thread, maybe I will find something I like even better.
"please dont think im attacking guys with bad eyes"
Careful there, or I'll sic my seeing-eye Maltese on you! He'll lick you into submission, or else gnaw your ankle to the bone.
Seriously, this thread is a good example of why I read this forum. Divergent views & opinions. Makes me think. Challenges beliefs and assumptions. Shared experiences.
New & different ideas regarding gear on which to spend money.
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