View Full Version : Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded
outrider627
02-13-11, 16:13
Is there any test data on this load? Palmetto State Armory has this in stock and I was wondering if it was a good choice for HD. It uses the Fusion 62gr bonded bullet. Would this make it similar to other previously tested 62gr bonded loads?
It offers the same terminal performance as the analogous Speer Gold Dots--pretty nice, but not quite as good as the TBBC or new Win Bonded load.
outrider627
02-13-11, 17:06
It offers the same terminal performance as the analogous Speer Gold Dots--pretty nice, but not quite as good as the TBBC or new Win Bonded load.
Thanks! I added some Mk318 to a big order of different stuff recently but now I feel like I bought the wrong ammo.
A couple more questions. Is the model number of the TBBC load you're talking about, LE223T3? And what is the number of the Wind Bonded load?
Have you read this: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881? Perhaps the second paragraph??
outrider627
02-13-11, 23:12
Have you read this: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881? Perhaps the second paragraph??
Oh **** me, the answers were right there. And I've read that thread a few times. Like my dad always told me, if it was a dog it would've bitten me. :o
I bet we will see more bonded type loads coming out in the near future
winchester is suppose to start loading there new boned bullet in may
according to the email I got
I was planning on picking up a couple thousand of the Mk318 but this may change my mind. With the Mk318 at $731.50/1000 vs this at $499.50/1000 I could save some money or get some extra ammo for the same money.
If I'm understanding this correctly, the only disadvantage of the XM223SP1 is that it is a .223 pressure load. Otherwise, it is like the Gold Dot and should perform better than the Mk318 right?
Is there any chronograph data for this yet?
How much effective range would it lose compared to the Gold Dot 5.56 version?
Interesting velocity issue. On PSAs website, they site 3,000 FPS from a 24 inch barrel. Using the old "50 FPS per inch of barrel", you would be at 2,600 FPS from a 16 inch barrel.
Pass for me. I'll stick with the MK318. :)
Have you read this: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881? Perhaps the second paragraph??
Are these Low Flash?
Are these Low Flash?
The LE223T1 is - pretty low flash even from a 10.3", especially compared to XM193! IIRC, all the Federal duty loads use low flash powders. Can't say for the others on the list.
Here are a couple pics of the loaded ammo. I tried to get a closeup of the tip to help people understand what is being descibed but I'm not very good with a camera.
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/62gr_Bonded.jpg
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/62gr_Bonded_Closeup.jpg
I fired some of these through an 11.5" and a 16". Here's what I got:
11.5" CL 1:9
2310fps, 139 ES, 44 SD
16" CL 1:9
2706fps, 191 ES, 53 SD
I lost alot of velocity in the 11.5". Enough that I'm not confident these would be very useful for one. They must be using a fairly slow powder that just doesn't build speed well in short barrels.
The 2700fps from the 16" is about what I expected from a .223 pressure load. My 62gr TSX handloads (using TAC and Barnes' 5.56 pressure data) get 2700fps from the 11.5" and 2850fps from the 16".
I was not impressed with the extreme spreads and standard deviations (my handloads give me extreme spreads under 40fps and standard deviations under 15) but I wasn't surprised. I've found the same exact thing with my Federal 55gr TRU duty ammo.
These were 10 shot strings. Also a word on accuracy, I only shot them at 25 yards and not from a bench so this isn't definitive but at 25 yards my groups were just 1.25" (11.5" with Eotech) and .75" (16" with Accupoint at 4x). I'm guessing in more controlled circumstances I might get the groups to 2"-3" at 100 yards using these barrels. Both barrels I was using were light weight chrome lined barrels, not target or high dollar barrels. Not great but not completely unacceptable either given the circumstances.
Host rifles
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Patrol_Rifles_2.jpg
I've been doing some water jug penetration testing with TSX's recently and I decided to try one of these. Using 1 gallon milk jugs filled with water I shot a 62gr Federal XM223SP1 round into a row of jugs at 10 yards. This gave an impact velocity of approximately 2670fps.
The bullet passed through 3 jugs and stopped in the 4th. This was midway between the performance of a 50gr TSX (stopped in jug 3) and a 62gr TSX (stopped in jug 5). The bullet expanded to a max diamater of .58" (widest point) and retained 52.4gr (84.5%) of its weight.
Overall, I think that is very good considering the price of this ammo. It is obviously bonded (see photots), expanded well, and penetrated well. I'm not thrilled with the velocity spread, but I think this is definitely a big step up from M193 or M855 with regard to terminal performance.
Front:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Fed_223_bonded1.jpg
Back:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Fed_223_bonded2.jpg
Good post!
Thanks Doc.
I purchased this ammo based on the information you provided and I got exactly what I expected. Thanks again for all the info you share.
Another update:
It has been said that these bullets were designed for shorter barrels and may be designed for lower velocities. Well, I was working on a RRA pistol for a co-worker so I decided to test muzzle velocity and penetration/expansion from the 7.5" barrel.
Average muzzle velocity was 1923fps. With an estimated impact velocity of 1900fps the bullet penetrated 4 jugs (the same as it did from a 16" barrel at 2700fps) and still mushroomed well. Recovered weight was 61.7gr and expansion was .45" at the widest point.
This bullet seems to work fairly well at the lower velocities. While I wouldn't choose to use a 7.5" pistol, it appears that at 10 yards it would still be a reasonably effective load.
Some pics of the recovered bullet:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Fed_223_bonded5.jpg
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Fed_223_bonded6.jpg
I shot some of this through a 22" bolt action Stevens today. Interestingly the average velocity was 2752, only 46fps faster than from a 16" chrome lined AR.
The extreme spread and standard deviation went down (51 and 22 vs 191 and 53 from the 16") and the groups were noticably better. I got 1.5" groups at 100 yards from the Savage, nothing under 2" so far from the AR's.
At the request of another member I measured overall length and pulled one of these apart.
Cartridge Overall Length = 2.220"
Bullet Length = .801"
Bullet Weight = 62.2gr
Powder Charge = 23.9gr
Pic of the bullet and powder:
http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww103/aplorton/Fed_223_bonded7.jpg
Very informative posts Altair thanks.
Great stuff Altair!
Especially glad to see how well this did out of a 7.5"...effective range will be at least 100 yds with a 10.5" I suspect...
Great stuff Altair!
Especially glad to see how well this did out of a 7.5"...effective range will be at least 100 yds with a 10.5" I suspect...
Based on the test I did this bullet expanded fairly well at 1900fps impact velocity. I got 2300+fps from an 11.5" barrel so if you assume a BC of .28 (that is conservative) this bullet would still expand to about 130 yards from an 11.5". Since it was going a little over 1900fps from a 7.5" it should be going around 2200 from a 10.5", meaning it would be going 1900fps right at 100 yards. Not bad for a 10.5"
From a 16" at 2700fps it drops to 1900fps at around 260 yards.
eternal24k
06-06-11, 19:20
Great thread,
thanks Altair :)
Based on the test I did this bullet expanded fairly well at 1900fps impact velocity. I got 2300+fps from an 11.5" barrel so if you assume a BC of .28 (that is conservative) this bullet would still expand to about 130 yards from an 11.5". Since it was going a little over 1900fps from a 7.5" it should be going around 2200 from a 10.5", meaning it would be going 1900fps right at 100 yards. Not bad for a 10.5"
From a 16" at 2700fps it drops to 1900fps at around 260 yards.
Better than a sharp stick in the eye...
Nice writeup Altair!
snackgunner
06-06-11, 22:55
With all the good info in this thread its really has got me thinking.
Cant decide on whether to go with this round or the speer .223
With all the good info in this thread its really has got me thinking.
Cant decide on whether to go with this round or the speer .223
I was in the same boat as you. I was looking for a round that would perform well out to 100 yds out of a 10.5" SBR. It was between the SPEER and the SP1 and I ended up going with the SP1 before this thread came into being....now thanks to Altair, I know I made a good decision :D
Bottom line, the cost will allow you to buy more of this than the SPEER, and according to Doc and these results, the terminal ballistics are very similar between the two.
You may have better velocity and accuracy with the SPEER, but I think the performance that Altair has shown has proven the round worthy for most,if not all, civvie applications...
They are the exactly the same...
Evil1969SS>LS6
06-07-11, 08:15
I was in the same boat as you. I was looking for a round that would perform well out to 100 yds out of a 10.5" SBR. It was between the SPEER and the SP1 and I ended up going with the SP1 before this thread came into being....now thanks to Altair, I know I made a good decision :D
Bottom line, the cost will allow you to buy more of this than the SPEER, and according to Doc and these results, the terminal ballistics are very similar between the two.
You may have better velocity and accuracy with the SPEER, but I think the performance that Altair has shown has proven the round worthy for most,if not all, civvie applications...
It's a good thing I tipped ya' off about this before buying the Speer at almost double the price...sucks because now it looks it's finally startin' to get alil' more scarse :(
It's a good thing I tipped ya' off about this before buying the Speer at almost double the price...sucks because now it looks it's finally startin' to get alil' more scarse :(
Haha yessir...and thanks for tip #2 ;)
goldfacade
06-15-11, 10:14
Being that this is a soft point is there an issue with fouling the feed ramps? There doesn't seem to be much lead exposed, but fouling has been an issue with other soft points.
Being that this is a soft point is there an issue with fouling the feed ramps? There doesn't seem to be much lead exposed, but fouling has been an issue with other soft points.
Like you said, there isn't much lead exposed, so you may see some fouling, but not as fast as you would other rounds with more lead exposed...
I haven't shot this in bulk so what I am saying is in "theory", but with a quality weapon, you shouldn't see a problem.
The GD rifle bullets do not really have an exposed lead tip from a feeding perspective.
I have shot a limited amount of them and noticed no lead on the feedramps.
vicious_cb
06-24-11, 21:46
So, is this the same bullet loaded in the Federal Fusion 62gr F223FS1?
http://www.box.net/shared/static/t0766kkmx0.jpg
Same design and materials.
wilsoncombatrep
08-31-11, 15:34
I shot both the Federal FUSION 62gr load and the XM223SP1 62gr load, and got basically the same velocity from both (2750 average out of my 18" barreled SPRish). Both gave me 1-1.25" informal groups. Next time to the range, I'm going to mount a more powerful optic, and take a better rest, and see if they will group better. If so, I may have to lay in a supply of the XM223SP1 load.
From the gvt on the MK318:
The powder used to load these rounds is not available for retail. This is not because it is some top-secret, magical mystery powder. Commercial and military powders are made in huge lots, each with a slightly different burn rate than the other. Retail canister powders are blended to be very uniform lot-to-lot, for liability and marketing purposes. That way the loading manuals stay accurate.
Charge weight:
Even though there may be a govt. specified charge weight, it is only a reference. Because each lot of powder is different, a different load is worked up for each, resulting in different charge weights from lot-to-lot. This is done to meet velocity and trajectory requirements.
Now the XM223SP1 is charged for .223 much lower muzzel velocity especially at shorter barrel where the gvt round was optimized for a quicker burn/short barrel.
With the XM223SP1 the velocity is so low as to make one wonder if this is really worth the cost over a good XM885 as far as barrier penetration. I'm thinking it would be dissapointing.
M855 does very poorly against auto windshields. The Gold Dot, even at .223 velocities, is substantially better in this regard.
Thanks for the great info on this round, Altair, Doc and Ironman.
I decided to replace my regular SP ammo with SP1 for my primary SD round, assuming I get good functioning and reasonable accuracy from it. At just over half the cost of the Speer version and other 5.56 bonded loads this is a great value. I would like to see more velocity but since this holds together, expands (theoretically) to 260 yds from 16" bbl, and is at least as accurate as M855/M193 then that if more than enough for my SD purpose.
Ordered some of the SP1 last week from PSA. After testing it out in my carbines I'll add more. Unless Mk318 comes down in price. Hopefully as interest in these bonded ammo types grows the prices will come down with increased production and competition.
Thanks guys for your detailed reporting of results. Doc has laid out a super base of terminal performance data that puts all the options into perspective.
Mk318 is a great military load for use under current LOW requirements, but for CONUS LE or self-defense use, why would anyone choose to use non-bonded 5.56 mm SOST over a quality barrier blind load like TBBC, Win bonded, Speer Gold Dot/Fed Fusion, Rem CLUB, Nosler Partition, or the BH 50 gr TSX??? That is not logical thinking...
Mk318 is a great military load for use under current LOW requirements, but for CONUS LE or self-defense use, why would anyone choose to use non-bonded 5.56 mm SOST over a quality barrier blind load like TBBC, Win bonded, Speer Gold Dot/Fed Fusion, Rem CLUB, Nosler Partition, or the BH 50 gr TSX??? That is not logical thinking...
Because of the powder behind the bullet? The Mk318 has a lot more charge than a .223 load, and on top of that the powder was selected for compatability with SBR AR's . We are talking about a huge difference in ballistics with the mk18 that a "super" bullet can't necessarily over come.
Hell I'd argue that the ammo manufacturers legal issues with .223 vs 5.56 are hindering the AR's potential more than any international treaty. I mean 62g 2300fps point blank from an 11.5" AR for CONUS or SD use? Really?
What DocGKR is pointing out is that Mk318 is better than M855 for military use but is NOT better than commercial barrier blind ammo.
Just how much range do you think you need for LE or SD use? Barrier blind bullets can upset at lower velocities than fragmenting FMJ. If you are concerned about the velocity of a 62gr load out of an 11.5" barrel you may want to look at a 50-55gr barrier blind load.
Regal--The 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3), 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B), the Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading, and the 5.56 mm Speer 55 gr Gold Dot JSP are all loaded to 5.56 mm pressures with powder optimized for 10-16" barrels just like Mk318 Mod0; most importantly, ALL of these loads offer superior terminal performance compared to Mk318 Mod0. Heck, the .223 pressure 55 and 62 gr TBBC offer better terminal performance than Mk318 Mod0...
Beat Trash
09-07-11, 12:18
I am patiently awaiting the release of the Federal and Winchester FBI loadings, to see what the pricing for individual officers will be, and the availability of these rounds for the general public.
For those who have to pay for their own SD/ Duty ammunition, I'm finding it difficult not to look hard at the Federal XM223SP1 loading.
We all have to access our needs when choosing our equipment and ammunition. I don't own or have access to a SBR. My guns have 16" barrels, and I'd be hard pressed to think of a realistic incident I would be involved in, in which the engagement distance would be near 100 yds, much less past that.
SBR's have a place, but for general use I prefer a 16" barrel 5.56 mm, as it is the most versatile option depending on what optic and ammunition is selected. As mentioned in another thread, Pat McNamara, the esteemed and extremely experienced SOF firearms instructor and combat veteran recently mentioned that he prefers a 5.56 mm DI 16” barrel AR15 with a long FF rail and RDS (w/flip up 3x magnifier as a useful addition) for the majority of his carbine use, including indoors for CQB; he specifically mentioned LaRue and DD AR15’s as working very well for him, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM
This is a great thread. I want to use my middie carbine on wild pigs in Georgia . I have shot boar with a .308 , but that was in western Europe . Any suggestions about using XM223sp1 on pigs in Georgia ?
SBR's have a place, but for general use I prefer a 16" barrel 5.56 mm, as it is the most versatile option depending on what optic and ammunition is selected. As mentioned in another thread, Pat McNamara, the esteemed and extremely experienced SOF firearms instructor and combat veteran recently mentioned that he prefers a 5.56 mm DI 16” barrel AR15 with a long FF rail and RDS (w/flip up 3x magnifier as a useful addition) for the majority of his carbine use, including indoors for CQB; he specifically mentioned LaRue and DD AR15’s as working very well for him, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM
That is interesting. I guess what is frustrating is you keep recommending these FBI loads, Doc you can't buy them, they don't exist :(
A lot of us are moving to the pencil barrel 12-14.5" with the micro rd. With the FBI 5.56 this would be very versatile. A midlength with an H2 buffer pencil 14.5 has very low recoil, easy to manuver, fast to manuver, fast target acquisition, fast follow up shots. A lot of advantages, much more enjoyable and practical carbine than a 16" loaded down with 14 ounces of optics. Maybe this XM223SP1 is the ticket for such a config. I just can't get past the huge KE difference between this .223 and mk318. If it were XM556SP1 selling for 50 cent per round we wouldn't be having this discussion, but I believe we wil see mk318 at 50 cents per round long before the fbi loads. Really makes one want to take a hard look at 6.8SPC which I know nothing about:o
Leatherneck556
09-10-11, 08:11
If it were XM556SP1 selling for 50 cent per round we wouldn't be having this discussion
This. I don't see why the Federal Fusion 62gr round (or the XM223SP1 copy of it) can't be loaded to 5.56 pressures w/ crimped and sealed primers at an affordable price. In fact, I'm working on getting somebody to make a custom load like that. I'm trying the Hunting Shack and Bitteroot Valley Ammunition Company currently.
That is interesting. I guess what is frustrating is you keep recommending these FBI loads, Doc you can't buy them, they don't exist :(
A lot of us are moving to the pencil barrel 12-14.5" with the micro rd. With the FBI 5.56 this would be very versatile. A midlength with an H2 buffer pencil 14.5 has very low recoil, easy to manuver, fast to manuver, fast target acquisition, fast follow up shots. A lot of advantages, much more enjoyable and practical carbine than a 16" loaded down with 14 ounces of optics. Maybe this XM223SP1 is the ticket for such a config. I just can't get past the huge KE difference between this .223 and mk318. If it were XM556SP1 selling for 50 cent per round we wouldn't be having this discussion, but I believe we wil see mk318 at 50 cents per round long before the fbi loads. Really makes one want to take a hard look at 6.8SPC which I know nothing about:o
Once ammo is more widely available, the 300 BLK would be WAY more effective than the 6.8 SPC....also, if you have read the results from the various testing of this round, you will see that it is very effective in its expansion down to some very low velocities, so I wouldn't get hung up on the numbers. Just buy some, practice with a few hundred rounds to ensure function, note the external ballistics out to say 100 yds, and rest assured that you have a very capable round for any distance that you would ever need to make a self defense shot. If you wanted this for a long range precision round, then this wouldn't be for you...but nor would the MK318 be either...
Ironman 8: While I like both calibers, I believe you will find that 6.8 mm offers superior terminal performance and better range than .300 BLK.
Regal: Speer has made a 5.56 mm version of the 64 gr Gold Dot that has a similar velocity to M855, Mk318, etc...
Ironman 8: While I like both calibers, I believe you will find that 6.8 mm offers superior terminal performance and better range than .300 BLK.
I was thinking more close in where an SBR + suppressor (on an AR platform of course) would come into consideration...would your response still hold true under those parameters?
wilsoncombatrep
09-10-11, 22:47
Ironman,
The 6.8 performs wonderfully in a SBR with a suppressor, but with supersonic rounds, not subsonic.The 6.8 does very well in a SBR format.
If you are after subsonic performance, then you need to look at the 300BLK, otherwise, the 6.8 gives much better terminal performance in a supersonic role. That is the great thing about the AR platform, if you want to change the role of the carbine, just push 2 pins and change uppers.....its all good:cool:
Leatherneck556
09-11-11, 07:23
Regal: Speer has made a 5.56 mm version of the 64 gr Gold Dot that has a similar velocity to M855, Mk318, etc...
I thought they discontinued this load?
Yes, hence the phrase "has made", rather than "is making" ...
I was thinking more close in where an SBR + suppressor (on an AR platform of course) would come into consideration...would your response still hold true under those parameters?
The 300 BLK is a good round but will never beat the 6.8 in terminal performance, even in an SBR. Here are the advantages of each as I see them.
300BLK:
Standard bolt
Standard magazines (maybe, depends on loaded length of ammo)
Quiet suppressed (with subsonics)
Versatile (works well with supers and subs)
Can make brass cheaply from .223 brass
6.8 SPC:
Superior terminal performance
Superior long range ballistics
If you're key selling point is terminal performance gain then the 6.8 will be the winner. I understand from a self defense standpoint the long range stuff is less important and being able to use standard mags and cheap .223 brass is also very helpful to shooting more and being more proficient.
Another option to look at is the 7.62x40 WT. If subsonics aren't your game you can basically take 300BLK velocities with bullets 130gr and under and add 150-200fps. It should give better terminal performance than the 300BLK and at least be closer to the 6.8 (I would love to see some testing on this to confirm) while maintaining the advantage of using cheap .223 brass and a standard bolt. The 110gr TAC-X SBR performs exceptionally well from a 16" 7.62x40. I have both a 300BLK and a 7.62x40 and I use the 7.62x40 for supersonics and the 300BLK for subsonics suppressed.
Sixgun_Symphony
02-26-12, 20:23
That is interesting. I guess what is frustrating is you keep recommending these FBI loads, Doc you can't buy them, they don't exist :(
A lot of us are moving to the pencil barrel 12-14.5" with the micro rd. With the FBI 5.56 this would be very versatile. A midlength with an H2 buffer pencil 14.5 has very low recoil, easy to manuver, fast to manuver, fast target acquisition, fast follow up shots. A lot of advantages, much more enjoyable and practical carbine than a 16" loaded down with 14 ounces of optics. Maybe this XM223SP1 is the ticket for such a config. I just can't get past the huge KE difference between this .223 and mk318. If it were XM556SP1 selling for 50 cent per round we wouldn't be having this discussion, but I believe we wil see mk318 at 50 cents per round long before the fbi loads. Really makes one want to take a hard look at 6.8SPC which I know nothing about:o
http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/20-rds-556-mm-federal-62-grain-bonded-softpoint-fbi-load-xm556fbit3
snackgunner
02-27-12, 15:37
Has anyone heard of PSA or any other distributors stocking the Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded in the near future? PSA has not had this ammo in for a while and I believe I read somewhere that they may not be stocking this ammo anymore, but I could be wrong.
Has anyone heard of PSA or any other distributors stocking the Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded in the near future? PSA has not had this ammo in for a while and I believe I read somewhere that they may not be stocking this ammo anymore, but I could be wrong.
It may have been a one time deal.
The fusion (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/federal-fusion-ammunition-223-remington-62-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-box-of-20.html) is the same, but 50% higher priced...
Yes, hence the phrase "has made", rather than "is making" ...
What really doesn't make sense is that they stopped making a 5.56 version of the 64gr but continue to make a 5.56 version of the 55gr. Seems like idiots could blow up their .223 chambered rifles with either 5.56 pressure round.
Most of the 5.56 mm 55 gr loads are sold to agencies using 1033 program M16A1's--these all have true 5.56 mm chambers...
Has anyone heard of PSA or any other distributors stocking the Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded in the near future? PSA has not had this ammo in for a while and I believe I read somewhere that they may not be stocking this ammo anymore, but I could be wrong.
I emailed PSA about this not long ago. That first batch was some ICE contract overrun. I was told they would be negotiating with Federal during the SHOT show.
We sits and waits.
urbankaos04
03-21-12, 22:24
I contacted SG Ammo and this is what they had to say:
"One time deal, sorry it ran out a while ago."
Let's hope that Palmetto State Armory works something out.
SBR's have a place, but for general use I prefer a 16" barrel 5.56 mm, as it is the most versatile option depending on what optic and ammunition is selected. As mentioned in another thread, Pat McNamara, the esteemed and extremely experienced SOF firearms instructor and combat veteran recently mentioned that he prefers a 5.56 mm DI 16” barrel AR15 with a long FF rail and RDS (w/flip up 3x magnifier as a useful addition) for the majority of his carbine use, including indoors for CQB; he specifically mentioned LaRue and DD AR15’s as working very well for him, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w69N5gsxvpM
I notice that although the SBRs were the cool thing for quite awhile that many of the high speed guys, Kyle DeFoor is another that comes to mind, are going with the 16" guns by choice.
I hear experience speaking.
I notice that although the SBRs were the cool thing for quite awhile that many of the high speed guys, Kyle DeFoor is another that comes to mind, are going with the 16" guns by choice.
I hear experience speaking.
While I certainly don't have the credentials that the other guys mentioned above have, I still prefer an SBR for many things. Coupled with good ammo it is effective well beyond typical LE engagement distances and is easier to work indoors with.
I carry an 11.5" with a red dot and a 16" with a variable power scope (1.25-4x) and a few weeks ago I had the scoped rifle out on a perimeter. I ended up on the stack and assisted with clearing the house, a very small modular with tiny hallways and doors, and I regreted not taking my SBR. The scope wasn't the problem, as at 1.25x it is similar to the red dot, but those tight doors and hallways made it feel cumbersome.
Since I have all the optics on Larue mounts I'm thinking about going down to the one rifle, the SBR, and just keeping the scope available for perimeter work.
Provided good ammunition is used, at typical LE distances of 100 and in, from a terminal ballistic perspective, both a quality built SBR and 16" will provide adequate performance. Obviously at extended ranges, the 16" will be a better option. SBR's are certainly more convenient, especially getting in and out of vehicles and in tight spaces. SBR's do have more blast, flash, potentially reduced lifespan, and can be more temperamental in function--although the better quality ones run well. An SBR with a suppressor is about the same length as a 16" gun--this is a key fact. An ideal LE rifle is a quality built 11.5-12.5" AR15 run w/can; if that is not available, then a 16" gun makes a lot of sense as a general purpose rifle.
Provided good ammunition is used, at typical LE distances of 100 and in, from a terminal ballistic perspective, both a quality built SBR and 16" will provide adequate performance. Obviously at extended ranges, the 16" will be a better option. SBR's are certainly more convenient, especially getting in and out of vehicles and in tight spaces. SBR's do have more blast, flash, potentially reduced lifespan, and can be more temperamental in function--although the better quality ones run well. An SBR with a suppressor is about the same length as a 16" gun--this is a key fact. An ideal LE rifle is a quality built 11.5-12.5" AR15 run w/can; if that is not available, then a 16" gun makes a lot of sense as a general purpose rifle.
I do have and use a suppressor but I'm finding more and more that I like to leave it off and wear a set of quality electronic ear muffs. They allow me to still hear well but not have the extreme risk of permanent hearing damage (especially indoors) if an SBR is used while allowing me to maximize the maneuverability of the 11.5' SBR.
Of course, this is of little help to my partners if they are inside with me. Our SWAT team uses a set of electronic muffs that plug directly into their radios that accomplish this for the whole team but patrol guys have to supply their own and most do not.
I use the suppressor most frequently when I'm also using night vision.
The plus side to an SBR indoors is that it acts like a mini-distraction device. Unfortunately, in addition to concussing nearby LE personnel, the noise can permanently damage the hearing of innocent bystanders, children, and hostages. In addition, after having an SBR go off in close proximity, commands and instructions may not be heard or comprehended correctly...
The plus side to an SBR indoors is that it acts like a mini-distraction device. Unfortunately, in addition to concussing nearby LE personnel, the noise can permanently damage the hearing of innocent bystanders, children, and hostages. In addition, after having an SBR go off in close proximity, commands and instructions may not be heard or comprehended correctly...
I had considered the distraction device effect, but must confess I hadn't thought about the issue with verbal commands being comprehended.
The innocent bystander issue is certainly a problem with any scenario where they are present when shooting starts for plenty of reasons, potential hearing loss being just one.
It is tough to comply when you can't hear...
Out today with the chronograph (mostly just enjoying the pleasant weather), and thought I would update for reference.
The 62 gr XM223SP1 averaged 2,719 fps ~9' from the PACT through an 18" SS Noveske SPR barrel. Temp was 45* F. Pleasantly surprised since it previously only ran 2,469 in the 14.5" CL at 56* F.
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