View Full Version : Help with caliber choice. Not the same old....
Okay so as per my previous thread I am selling my G19 to a friend. This leaves me with no service type sidearm other than my duty issue Glock 22. My next gun is almost certainly going to be a Glock but I need help deciding on caliber.
9mm is my favorite. Easy choice except that it is not authorized by my department. So that means I have to pay for all my ammo.
40 is the standard issue for my department and my current duty caliber. I dont care for the recoil but I have become a very proficient shooter with it. My dept budgets 100 rounds per officer per month for training. But since many officers dont shoot they have a lot left over allowing me to shoot 100 rounds every week.
45 is an authorized caliber but is not the standard issue. I would still get free ammo to practice but am limited to the 100 rounds per month, maybe a little more. Since it isnt the standard issue they dont buy anywhere near as much ( this week they were down to a couple dozen cases while they had 900k rounds of .40 ) and most 45 shooters are gunnies so its used more often.
So should I stick with the .40 since I get lots of free practice even though its the caliber I like least?
Does the new recoil springs in the Gen4s reduce the recoil at all?
F-Trooper05
02-14-11, 00:33
I'd say it depends on what your paycheck looks like. Where I'm at, 100 rounds of 9mm would cost about $22. Can you afford $22 a week? If so, than there's no reason not to choose 9mm if it's your favorite. If $22 is gonna break the bank, then I'd take the .40 in a heart beat.
Just my 2 cents.
It is pretty simple.
You are issued a G22 for duty.
You get access to free .40 ammo.
Get a 4th gen G22 and shoot the snot out of it.
Done.
(Personally I'd rather shoot a G19 or M&P40--but those are NOT the best choices for your specific situation.)
it might be worth getting really used to the recoil characteristics of 40, as that is probably the caliber you'd have on you in any serious shooting. I haven't really been a fan of 40 cal glocks until the gen 4's came out. Apparently the issues are solved.
also having mag and ammo compatibility across all your carry guns is always a plus.
You could get a G23 and buy a 9mm conversion barrel. That way you can shoot all the free .40 ammo you get. Plus you can shoot the more economical 9mm that you enjoy.
Or you could get a G21/G30/G36 with a .40 conversion barrel and shoot two calibers for free. :p Plus it opens you up to the possibility of a 10mm conversion barrel if that interests you.
If it were me and I liked shooting 9mm best I would just keep the G19, and shoot all the free .40 ammo through the duty gun.
Magic_Salad0892
02-14-11, 03:17
Doc does this mean you view the Gen4 G22 guns as good to go?
Alaskapopo
02-14-11, 03:18
I don't like the Glock 40 but you are issued one so I would get a 27 as a back up on duty and as a off duty gun and use department ammo.
John_Wayne777
02-14-11, 06:41
Free ammo, dude.
Free ammo. Those are two of the most beautiful words in the English language.
I personally have no use for .40 caliber pistols...but if tomorrow I had access to more or less all the .40 caliber I could shoot at no cost to me, I'd cheerfully buy a good .40 caliber pistol (in your case I'd buy a 4th Gen G22) and shoot until they stopped giving me ammo.
ChicagoTex
02-14-11, 06:52
Free ammo, dude.
Free ammo. Those are two of the most beautiful words in the English language.
I personally have no use for .40 caliber pistols...but if tomorrow I had access to more or less all the .40 caliber I could shoot at no cost to me, I'd cheerfully buy a good .40 caliber pistol (in your case I'd buy a 4th Gen G22) and shoot until they stopped giving me ammo.
I cannot echo these sentiments enough. You could also look at it as a free ($500) gun in ammo savings every 1/2 year. So you could buy the .40 Glock now, it will have paid for itself in half a year, and then in the next half year you can essentially get another gun in 9mm for free. Besides, as other posters have pointed out, it behooves you to practice most with the caliber you're most likely to fire in defense of life and limb.
Free ammo, dude.
Free ammo. Those are two of the most beautiful words in the English language.
I personally have no use for .40 caliber pistols...but if tomorrow I had access to more or less all the .40 caliber I could shoot at no cost to me, I'd cheerfully buy a good .40 caliber pistol (in your case I'd buy a 4th Gen G22) and shoot until they stopped giving me ammo.
+1!!!
yhmspecter
02-14-11, 09:32
well the words free ammo would influence my choice...
You could reload for the 9mm, but free beats cheap all day long. All my pistols are 9mm and I reload to save even more money. But if I got free .40 ammo all my pistols would be .40.
While I love the 3rd gen 9 mm Glocks, I despise .40 caliber Glocks; however, the 4th gen G22 is a step forward from the abysmal 3rd gen G22's. In the OP's situation, the 4th gen G22 is his best option; waiting the the "perfect" choice is not always possible, but we can ALWAYS learn to master what tools we do have, whether they are outstanding or merely mediocre, thus increasing our odds of success and survival.
Magic_Salad0892
02-15-11, 05:58
Thank you for the response Doc.
If you want some variety and have the extra money for ammo then by all means get something else. Otherwise it looks like you answered your own question with these:
I get lots of free practice and
I have become a very proficient shooter with it
ghettomedic
02-15-11, 09:59
As Dean Smith once told Matt Doherty when he complained about free food during an away game at UVA, "It's free, Matt. Free. Remember, Matt, you can't beat free. You can only tie it."
Or as a Burger King cashier told a friend and I in high school, "I know you white boys GOTS to understand FO' FREE!"
I'm not going to pile on the the advice that other have given beyond to ask about department-approved BUGs and off-duty guns. Does your department authorize the G27 as a BUG? If so, I'd buy a Gen4 G27 and request another 100 rounds of ammo a month. I know the departments I have qualified with do not have a problem with officers shooting their duty weapons for training, so I would rather buy a BUG/Off-duty gun than another G22. If the backup/off-duty qualification scores I've seen in the past are representative, the majority of officers need more training with their BUG, regardless of caliber or cost.
Thanks for your service, be safe out there.
While I love the 3rd gen 9 mm Glocks, I despise .40 caliber Glocks; however, the 4th gen G22 is a step forward from the abysmal 3rd gen G22's. In the OP's situation, the 4th gen G22 is his best option; waiting the the "perfect" choice is not always possible, but we can ALWAYS learn to master what tools we do have, whether they are outstanding or merely mediocre, thus increasing our odds of success and survival.
Doc, what about the G23's? He sold a G19, and G23 would be the same size gun, so why not get a G23 to replace the G19?
In your situation, my ideal solution would be a gen 4 g22 with the grip cut down to accept g23 mags. This would give you almost identical characteristics to your duty gun with improved concealment.
With your indulgence, I'll offer my thoughts on the options:
1. 9mm. If you carry a G22 but don't like to train with it because of the recoil, get yourself a G17 (same generation as your issue gun), and use it as a trainer. 9mm isn't THAT expensive to feed, and, if you want, you can use this as an excuse to get that reloader you always wanted!
2. .45 ACP. My agency doesn't authorize it, but, when I thought they would, I snapped up a G30SF as quick as I could. I LOVED that blocky little beast! 11 rounds of .45 ACP goodness in a package smaller than my beloved G19? Hells YES! The G21SF (or the soon to be released Gen4 G21) might make a very nice "duty" gun to match the G30's off-duty role. Again, if there's not a lot of .45 ACP to go around, there's the argument for the reloader again! Heck - you live close to Dillon World HQ - get over there!
3. .40 S&W. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Glock fanboi, I seriously have nothing else in my safe except for "niche" and "collector" pistols - but I have not ONE .40 S&W Glock. I've owned many over the years, and none has ever lasted terribly long. Especially now that I'm in a place where I'm shooting 1,000 rounds/month on average, my hands and wrists simply can't take the pounding they get from my G23 (including the Gen4 version I owned) with our issued ammunition. Having said all that, the argument that free ammo is the next best thing to free love holds a lot of water. Are you authorized to carry a backup on duty? If so, a Gen4 G27 might be in order; and could be a good option for an off-duty "primary." If you can't carry a BUG on duty, then I personally don't see the value-added to getting another Glock in a caliber you know you don't like...
All of this, of course, is one man's opinion, and worth precisely what you paid for it.
Regards and stay safe!
Kevin
Hey guys, sorry I havent been back since my original post I was out of town unexpectedly. I think Im gonna go with a Glock 21sf or mybe a 30sf. I figure that I wont be on patrol forever and when Im not depending on the G22 for my job I want something that I enjoy shooting more.
I still will, and do, practice religously with my G22 and like I said earlier am a pretty good shot with it. And maybe with a little more ass kissing down at the training dept I can get more 45 ammo.;)
I do shoot the 21s better than my 22 as well.
Might you bide your time just a little and give us a review of the "imminently" available Gen 4 G21? ;)
DiabhailGadhar
02-18-11, 01:35
Train as you fight, cuz you'll fight as you train....and free ammo that is one HUGE no brainer. Shit if you're a police officer you could get your paws on a HK ump 40 and have me over to help you get rid of that surplus ammo...:D
Might you bide your time just a little and give us a review of the "imminently" available Gen 4 G21? ;)
+1
While I'm normally not a fan of being a beta-tester for someone's "new and improved" pistol, I think Glock has been burned enough over teething issues with their 9mm Gen4 guns that they're being very cautious about the release of the Gen4 G34 and G21 - so they should be GTG from release date.
At least that's my hope!
Regards,
Kevin
I had intended to be a Gen 4 G21 test pilot but I jumped on one a dwindling number of G21 SF RTF2 pistols which is superb and probably the tightest grouping Glock I've ever shot so I'm out of the qeue for the Gen 4.
Somebody'll step up.
Pretty much everything that needs to be said has been said, but I will strongly echo the "train with what you carry" statements.
When it comes down to it, you aren't going to be shooting 9mm when the cracked-out perp is drawing on you at the home invasion call you responded to. You're going to be pulling your .40, or your .45 if you choose to switch.
In that situation, when it comes down to coming home to my family, I want to make sure that most of my training rounds went through exactly what I need to use when the moment comes. Yeah, .40 is snappy (it sucks, it's what I carry, life goes on), and it's not what all the cool kids are shooting.
But, your family will thank you that you didn't buy the latest and greatest in 9mm instead of training on your duty weapon.
While 9mm is less recoil, and certainly makes it easier to train with, that means you aren't as prepared when the time comes to handle the recoil of your duty .40 when you are A) under stress and B) may have other people around. You are responsible for every round, like it or not, so you don't get lulled into a "well, I'll just transfer that training to a heavier-recoiling caliber."
The guys I train with, we shoot a .22 conversion on our Glocks sometimes, to get a LOT of practice on trigger pulls. But every single one of them makes sure that if they do shoot the .22 conversions, they finish off with at least 25 rounds of .40 (or .45) so that they walk out with the freshest muscle memory of that heavy recoil round.
That's my opinion at least, take it for what it cost :dirol:
"it's not what all the cool kids are shooting"
Actually, quite a few of the "cool kids" do indeed use .40 S&W pistols for duty/combat.
Actually, quite a few of the "cool kids" do indeed use .40 S&W pistols for duty/combat.
it seems like 40 has fairly impressive terminal ballistic performance... especially through cars and glass.
I'm occasionally tempted by a deal on a G23... especially after the big 9mm shortage last year.
I will likely never choose to own another G23...ever.
I will likely never choose to own another G23...ever.
not even a gen 4?
it seems like 40 has fairly impressive terminal ballistic performance... especially through cars and glass.
I'm occasionally tempted by a deal on a G23... especially after the big 9mm shortage last year.
Same here for a the same reasons and it will be a Gen 4 G23 most likely. Great handling pistol.
Hey guys, sorry I havent been back since my original post I was out of town unexpectedly. I think Im gonna go with a Glock 21sf or mybe a 30sf. I figure that I wont be on patrol forever and when Im not depending on the G22 for my job I want something that I enjoy shooting more.
I still will, and do, practice religously with my G22 and like I said earlier am a pretty good shot with it. And maybe with a little more ass kissing down at the training dept I can get more 45 ammo.;)
I do shoot the 21s better than my 22 as well.
This sounds like a reasonable choice, and is probably what I'd do in your situation given the alternatives. I get the appeal of free ammo, but after all, if you shoot better in the .45 alternative, plus I think this is really what you prefer anyway :-) you may as well give this route a try. Think of it this way: if the .45 alternative work out, you'll be a happy camper. If not, the .40 alternative is still going to be there and you can fall back on it.
Get a G21SF-I'd JUMP on one for work if they allowed it. They don't, so I'm stuck with an issued G23, which has worked out great for the last 13 years. I think the G21SF/G30SF is the perfect combo for patrol/plainclothes. You did say they had .45 ACP for free.
texshooter
02-21-11, 13:23
are you set on a glock?
i really enjoy the Springfied XD and XDm models in 40.
if you have the opportunity to shoot one, i highly recommend it.
I didnt like the Glocks in 40 so i chose the XDm, since then i have only purchased Springfield models.
I know lots of people love glocks but i dont think you should limit yourself.
ChicagoTex
02-21-11, 14:29
are you set on a glock?
i really enjoy the Springfied XD and XDm models in 40.
if you have the opportunity to shoot one, i highly recommend it.
I didnt like the Glocks in 40 so i chose the XDm, since then i have only purchased Springfield models.
I know lots of people love glocks but i dont think you should limit yourself.
A. He carries a Glock on duty, carrying a Glock off-duty as well only makes a world of sense.
B. Springfields have NOT proven themselves to be even close to duty-worthy, please do a search of this forum to find out the many reasons why.
texshooter
02-21-11, 14:45
B. Springfields have NOT proven themselves to be even close to duty-worthy, please do a search of this forum to find out the many reasons why.
I have put over 5k rounds through my XDm .40 without a single malfunction.
Every gun after some use will show wear and parts will need to be replaced.
reading a post or two by people who have had issues isnt representative of an entire line of pistols. i have read people who have had issues with glocks as well, i dont say "glocks suck because that guy had a FTF"
if you can point me to a legitimate test showing that the SA models underperformed a glock, id be happy to read it.
are you set on a glock?
i really enjoy the Springfied XD and XDm models in 40.
My next gun is almost certainly going to be a Glock but I need help deciding on caliber.
I think the answer to your question is yes. Probably best to reserve the XD discussion and all that that will bring to a thread other than this one.
Just my opinion.
ChicagoTex
02-21-11, 15:16
reading a post or two by people who have had issues isnt representative of an entire line of pistols. i have read people who have had issues with glocks as well, i dont say "glocks suck because that guy had a FTF"
So you haven't done the simple search like I suggested...
PA PATRIOT
02-21-11, 19:39
My department had a standard issue G-17 9mm until a year and a half ago when they allowed the G-22, G-35, G-21, G-21SF for duty use. The police range will issue 100rds a day for practice, Every day of the year (Except Holidays and weekends) so there is no excuse for not being proficient with your chosen Glock. I moved from the G-17 to the G-21SF and truly enjoy the pistol and the issued Federal HST is very accurate in my gun.
Fried Chicken Blowout
02-21-11, 19:43
I'd be no question for me. If I got all the free ammo I wanted I wouldn't care if it was a caliber that I wasn't into as long as it was an effective caliber.
I am really late to the party. I carry a Gen 3 G35 because I shoot it well, and it recoils no more that my Gen 2 G19 with 124 +p rounds.
Most of my practice/training ammo is free.
If my issue pistol was a G22 and I could shoot nearly unlimited free ammo, I would get a Gen 4 G22, make sure my form was as good as it could be re recoil management, work out smart re my elbow, wrist and hand strength and drive on.
I would only consider the 9mm or the .45 if I had the money right now, to buy 125% of the ammo I think I would be shooting when compared to the free ammo. In short, are you willing to make the four figure annual commitment such that you training does not suffer from one less training/practice/qualification round- if you can answer that question yes, go with another choice. Otherwise, you are back to the gen 4 G22 and all the free ammo you can shoot.
"if you can point me to a legitimate test showing that the SA models underperformed a glock, id be happy to read it."
That test has been done by a U.S. military organization--they chose the Glock, not the XD--perhaps because the XD had significantly more parts breakage than other pistols in the trial.
I will likely never choose to own another G23...ever.
Can you elaborate why?
TheSmiter1
02-22-11, 02:49
Can you elaborate why?
There are many threads on the .40 Gen 3 Glocks. For agencies especially, they have problems with breakages at higher round counts.
This is because of the combination of a RSA (recoil spring assembly) and slide designed around 9mm. They should have either redesigned the whole thing around .40, or increased the spring weight for the .40 models.
The speed of the slide cycling with a WML can also cause failures to feed. Sometimes, with worn springs, this happens with no WML.
There are many here who have had issues with .40 Glocks. There are also many who use them, and recommend more frequent replacement of the RSA (2500 rounds). You could also use a heavier aftermarket spring.
However, with the advent of the Gen 4 (in which Glock has finally started using caliber-specific RSAs) it really doesn't matter, unless you're issued a Gen 3 (which many here, and throughout the country, are).
Do a search. Info is plentiful. DocGKR has his reasons for disliking the Glock 23.
The Gen4 22 seems like a decent option but Im not sure If my department will allow Gen4 guns, Ill have to ask.
As far as extra wear on Gen3 .40s, I have seen it first hand. Two people on my old squad had their frames crack at the upper pin above the trigger, which caused the pin to start walking itself out.
Im pretty sure I will be able to get more than the 100 rounds a month from the firearms guys. Most of them know me by name, which is good in a dept of 3k officers, and like me.;)
Plus ever since I tore a tendon off the bone in my finger on my shooting hand I find the bigger 21 grip more comfortable because I cant close that finger all the way.
TheSmiter1
02-22-11, 14:49
The Gen4 22 seems like a decent option but Im not sure If my department will allow Gen4 guns, Ill have to ask.
As far as extra wear on Gen3 .40s, I have seen it first hand. Two people on my old squad had their frames crack at the upper pin above the trigger, which caused the pin to start walking itself out.
Im pretty sure I will be able to get more than the 100 rounds a month from the firearms guys. Most of them know me by name, which is good in a dept of 3k officers, and like me.;)
Plus ever since I tore a tendon off the bone in my finger on my shooting hand I find the bigger 21 grip more comfortable because I cant close that finger all the way.
I've heard of heavier aftermarket springs alleviating some of the wear issues. I doubt you're allowed to put in a guide rod and recoil spring, though.
I've heard of heavier aftermarket springs alleviating some of the wear issues. I doubt you're allowed to put in a guide rod and recoil spring, though.
Only mods allowed are new sites and grip modification through Robar. You cant even put the extended controls/trigger from a 35 on the 22 but you can carry a 35.....:suicide:
100 rounds a week of free .40 S&W? Then I'd be looking to get a Gen4 35. I prefer 10mm, but the 35 should maximize velocity and perhaps reduce felt recoil.
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