View Full Version : I know my BM isn't a top tier rifle (rambling inside)......
Long time lurker, obviously this is my first post.
I bought my first AR in 2004, a BM XM-15 thingy. I can't say that I have buyer's remorse as I've only used it as a paper slayer at the range and I've never run it hard. As such, I've only had a couple FTE and it was due to a worn extractor spring.
It's not hard for me to admit that my BM isn't exactly 'professional grade'. I know it's not, and I've been reading a lot on here about what build processes, quality of materials, testing procedures, etc. go into making the most reliable weapon. I've taken my time and read most of the stickies here and in the technical section.
I'm at a bit of a crossroads, though. I know that I can "fix" parts of my BM and make it better than what it started out, or I can save my dough and drop it on a REAL firearm.
I understand that it would be very easy to just drop the cash on a BCM/DD/Colt/LMT and call it a day. I feel morally obligated to support my local businesses/small businesses/I think you know where I'm going with that. I'll even over pay a bit if I know that it helps put the money back into a local community. If you're still reading, here's where my question is:
What are the smaller makers that still produce a good, quality product?
Thanks for reading my rambling, and I look forward to learning as much as I can..
-Bely
Not sure if any local shops are going to have the kind of QC that BCM, Colt, DD, etc have.
What are the smaller makers that still produce a good, quality product?
Are you looking for guys who will assemble a top quality custom build for you? If so, then GandRtactical.com and ADCO can meet your requirements.
Or are you looking for the names of smallish companies that produce top tier AR15s as their standard product? If so, then Bravo Company Machine, Daniel Defense and Noveske are where I would look.
If i were you i'd probably just buy a BCM bcg, drop it in and shoot the piss out of the rifle you have.
And start saving to buy another (or build your own), that way you can keep your BM as a backup/loaner.
If i were you i'd probably just buy a BCM bcg, drop it in and shoot the piss out of the rifle you have.
And start saving to buy another, that way you can keep your BM as a backup/loaner.
thats what I did to my shrubmaster. BCM carrier group and H buffer :D
I don't know who is in your area, but one thing you might consider is having a local shop order a rifle for you and then pay their price. That way the profit margin stays in your community. Heck you could buy from G&R and then pay your local stores transfer fee. That is still all profit for them
I've seen a lot of opinions that a lower is a lower as long as it is in spec... unless you wanted to sell the BM as a complete weapon, you could keep the existing lower and purchase yourself a good upper and BCG. I built my lower from a YHM stripped lower and a RRA lower parts kit, and put a BCM upper on it. Runs like a champ (disclaimer: sample size of one, blah blah blah).
http://www.usamade-ar15parts.com/
These guys are local to me. Iv'e heard nothing but good things about them. They where at SHOT this year for this first time.
caelumatra
02-15-11, 09:39
I'm unfamiliar with the shop you posted so I wont comment on it, but I do have 3 BCM's that I can comment on
A new bolt and barrel will go a long way. I'd go BCM every day and twice on Sunday
If you want to drop change at a local shop, buy the tools to do the barrel swap yourself from someone local and see if they have a mil-spec receiver extension cause you probably have a commercial receiver extension. Then you can spend more there if you feel so inclined on your new vast array of stock options.
Or see if you can find an ar15 armorer in your area and have them swap your barrel for you and, again, if so inclined, your receiver extension.
Disclaimer: I didn't look up your model # to see if you have a milspec or commercial receiver extension. The difference is dimensions. I believe the milspec is 1.14" and the commercial is 1.17"
I still have my Bushmaster M4A3 Patrolman Carbine.... but the only things and I mean ONLY things that are original bushmaster parts are the Barrel, Upper receiver and the stripped lower, and I only kept the lower because its my Form 1 SBR lower.
Everything else has been replaced.
BCG is now a BCM Auto BCG
LPK is a Daniel Defense LPK
Buffer System is Vltor's A5 System with a MOE Stock
Rail is a MI 9.5in T-Series
Grip is Magpul
BattleComp 1.0
Hell, even the barrel is only partially original... its been cut down to 10.5
Basically I replaced all the shit parts. The barrel is still good, 68gr Match ammo shoots REAL good thru it, so there was no reason to get rid of it.
jstephens202
02-15-11, 09:43
Maybe I'm just lucky, but my Bushmaster has worked fine for me for over 7 years, one state firearms instructor class(2 weeks of free! ammo...), and dept. quals for those years plus monthly practice sessions. I had at least 2,000 thru it before I wised up and started keeping a round count, now at least 3,000, and have not had a problem. Of course, my Glock 36 has a ton thru it and I've had zero probs with it in the 10 years I've had it.
Only mods to my Bushy are defender ring on the extractor and a night sight front sight.
I clean it after every range session and keep it lubed and use quality mags. I've been real pleased with it.....
Long time lurker, obviously this is my first post.
I bought my first AR in 2004, a BM XM-15 thingy. I can't say that I have buyer's remorse as I've only used it as a paper slayer at the range and I've never run it hard. As such, I've only had a couple FTE and it was due to a worn extractor spring.
It's not hard for me to admit that my BM isn't exactly 'professional grade'. I know it's not, and I've been reading a lot on here about what build processes, quality of materials, testing procedures, etc. go into making the most reliable weapon. I've taken my time and read most of the stickies here and in the technical section.
I'm at a bit of a crossroads, though. I know that I can "fix" parts of my BM and make it better than what it started out, or I can save my dough and drop it on a REAL firearm.
I understand that it would be very easy to just drop the cash on a BCM/DD/Colt/LMT and call it a day. I feel morally obligated to support my local businesses/small businesses/I think you know where I'm going with that. I'll even over pay a bit if I know that it helps put the money back into a local community. If you're still reading, here's where my question is:
What are the smaller makers that still produce a good, quality product?
Thanks for reading my rambling, and I look forward to learning as much as I can..
-Bely
Hello and welcome to the forum!
I would buy the spare parts that wear our or break (on any AR) and just shoot your gun.
Parts list to keep around:
1. Bolt
2. Extractor spring and insert
3. Buffer Spring
About that only thing I would buy now is an H2 or H3 buffer (as your gun is over gassed. Those are cheap and easy and will make a difference.
Save your money (that you would have spent on upgrades or a new AR) and put it towards training. You will be much better off in the long run.
C4
I don't know what local businsses you have aroundthere to support, but for me, there is a little shop in Lexington putting out quality rifles, Accurate Armory. They aren't a big name yet, but several local PD's have started using their carbines and I've gotten to play with a couple of their complete rifles. Their quality is excellent and they will work with you on customizing the weapon to your liking. My next build will be an SBR and I'll most likely be working with them on it.
TheBelly, I'm also torn between buying locally and getting the best deal online. And I was in your position about upgrading my first AR, an ArmaLite.
But most of us buy a lot of things locally so why not go for the good deals online, when you can't beat them at home. Shopping around isn't a bad thing and most of us have a budget to stay in.
I'd say do your research and know exactly what you want in your next AR then buy the corresponding BCM, Daniel Defense, etc. upper online and have it shipped to your front door. Put it on your Bushmaster lower and run it.
Then maybe buy upgrades locally and even a stripped lower with your favorite rollmark (or at least your local FFL will get a transfer fee). Put a quality LPK, receiver extension, H buffer and stock kit on it (probably best to get this online again and delivered to your door). Of course you will now have your Bushy back and a new lower for the new upper.
I did something like this recently and now in addition to my ArmaLite I have the equivalent of a Daniel Defense M4V3 LW (on a different lower but with high quality components).
ETA: And if you want you could sell your Bushmaster to recover the investment in the new AR. It's likely that it's worth more in original condition than if it had a bunch of upgraded parts.
Of course an easier option is buy a complete quality AR online, pay the transfer fee locally, and then sell the Bushmaster locally to boost the local economy (including YOU).
I was in the same situation at one time. The BM was purchased used but looked well taken care of. My first time out I had a FTE on the 10th round and reseated the magazine and was good. I replaced all the mags that came with the purchase with New Magpul's and also replaced the basic items you found in the sticky's on this great site. From that point on I have used it in 4 classes and put 5,335 rounds to this day without any problems except a fresh mag kept falling out during training (Mag #6) and Magpul sent a new one ASAP. I did save up and purchased a few more upper tier AR's but never felt the BM would let me down.
So I agree with Grant and spend the money on training with the basic mods to your BM and as time goes by you will know if additional $$ is available to purchase your dream gun.
I reconcile the fact that I get good deals online for major purchases with the money I spend on ammo and accessories at my local store. What I can buy separately online for about $1100-1200 and put together, would be over $1500 at my local store. When you add the taxes on that, that's a decent saving worth having.
Vegas has a good point and I was awkwardly trying to say that earlier. Don't feel bad about shopping and getting a good deal online if you can't find it locally. (For example who in their right mind would pay $100 locally for an HDMI cable when you can get it online and shipped for $10.)
Most local shops can't compete with the selection and prices on the internet but is that a reason for you to settle for something less that's in stock and costs more? The savings you made online likely WILL be spent in the local economy, so it's not a complete loss for the community. Of course try to spend some of that in local gun shops that treat you right. It's a fine line but don't hurt yourself by bending over backwards to buy locally.
ETA:
Also the other side of the coin is that you should support quality online vendors like Grant here and others who you most certainly want to be around next time you need quality components.
Another problem with many local dealers is that they do not stock the higher quality parts. Even at gun shows here in VA, it is tough to find Noveske, LMT, and DD. In fact I have never seen a Noveske, LMT, CMT, or even a BCM rifle let alone the components from them. I have seen on occasion complete DDM4's.
But generally you will have to go online to get the higher quality parts or rifles. Just how it is. At least in South East Virginia. Even when I go to the Nation's Gun show in Chantilly, VA still not a lot of the mfrs listed above.
Like Grant said, just replace the bolt when it breaks with a BCM, LMT, CMT, DD, etc. Should be about $70 - $80 for a proper MPI/HPI bolt. Keep extra extractor springs, and shoot it. BM is certainly overgassed. You could even upgrade the recoil system with the VLTOR A5 if you want or just buy an H2 or H3 buffer.
I know that the OP wants to keep the money in the community, but that is in my mind not a reason to limit yourself. If you can buy what you want at a lower price online, then you have saved money that you can spend elsewhere within your community.
We live in a capitalist society. If the retailer down the street does not carry what you want, then you shouldn't buy something just because you want to support them. Tell them to get the products you want and then you will buy from them. This is what drives our economy.
citizensoldier16
02-15-11, 13:34
thats what I did to my shrubmaster. BCM carrier group and H buffer :D
+1. I did the same to mine. Stake the castle nut and you'll be GTG. I've run mine through a few classes as described above and it's performed fine.
Ok, so I have a commercial tube. Does that extra 3/4 inch really matter to me? Not really.
I went to my LGS (local gun store) and bought some Magpul goodies. They had everything in stock: MOE handguards, stock, BAD lever. They had a buffer that felt heavier than mine, but it didn't rattle like mine. It's got two pieces, and the part that the bcg impacts has a pin holding it to the rest while having about 1/2 inch of back-n-forth. I think it's a 9mm AR buffer, but i'll do more research on it.
I also found a different flash suppressor that I liked. It's a B.E. Meyers Vortex.
I'll post up pictures when I put it all on there.
Thanks for all the responses!
-belly
I've still got a commercial tube on mine. Didn't see any reason to swap it out since I already had the stock I wanted on it.
You must have a decent LGS. You won't find any of that stuff around here.
I'm curious about that new buffer.
We've got one LGS here that stocks a lot of the magpul catalog. And even better, their prices on that stuff is usually right around what Internet price with shipping would be.
Another problem with many local dealers is that they do not stock the higher quality parts. Even at gun shows here in VA, it is tough to find Noveske, LMT, and DD. In fact I have never seen a Noveske, LMT, CMT, or even a BCM rifle let alone the components from them. I have seen on occasion complete DDM4's.
But generally you will have to go online to get the higher quality parts or rifles. Just how it is. At least in South East Virginia. Even when I go to the Nation's Gun show in Chantilly, VA still not a lot of the mfrs listed above.
Like Grant said, just replace the bolt when it breaks with a BCM, LMT, CMT, DD, etc. Should be about $70 - $80 for a proper MPI/HPI bolt. Keep extra extractor springs, and shoot it. BM is certainly overgassed. You could even upgrade the recoil system with the VLTOR A5 if you want or just buy an H2 or H3 buffer.
I know that the OP wants to keep the money in the community, but that is in my mind not a reason to limit yourself. If you can buy what you want at a lower price online, then you have saved money that you can spend elsewhere within your community.
We live in a capitalist society. If the retailer down the street does not carry what you want, then you shouldn't buy something just because you want to support them. Tell them to get the products you want and then you will buy from them. This is what drives our economy.
This is somewhat true, but as an employee of a local shop, please allow me to present the other side of the argument:
When you're paying for bricks & mortar to house your business, you have to pay close attention to how you spend your inventory dollars. If I stock all KAC gear, sure I've got some top-tier stuff, but the average Joe coming in doesn't know the difference in KAC and Oly. All he sees is that my AR's are priced 4 times higher than the competition. Over the past 9-10 years, I've worked with the owner's son to convince the owner that it is worth stocking some higher-end parts. Sure we still have some RRA and DPMS guns on the shelf, but we also have DD, KAC, Colt, LMT and Noveske on the shelf. We also have a full case of Magpul accessories (not magazines, but stocks, grips, etc). Maybe you should talk to a few of the local shops and see if they could order the stuff for you even if they don't stock it. At least that way they'd know someone locally appreciates quality gear, and they may be able to justify stocking some, which may attract other local customers who would otherwise buy online, which would allow the dealer to stock even more quality gear...and so the cycle goes. Just some insight and my humble opinion/observations.
RancidSumo
02-15-11, 16:06
But none of those parts make the rifle more reliable and I though that was the purpose...
This is somewhat true, but as an employee of a local shop, please allow me to present the other side of the argument:
When you're paying for bricks & mortar to house your business, you have to pay close attention to how you spend your inventory dollars. If I stock all KAC gear, sure I've got some top-tier stuff, but the average Joe coming in doesn't know the difference in KAC and Oly. All he sees is that my AR's are priced 4 times higher than the competition. Over the past 9-10 years, I've worked with the owner's son to convince the owner that it is worth stocking some higher-end parts. Sure we still have some RRA and DPMS guns on the shelf, but we also have DD, KAC, Colt, LMT and Noveske on the shelf. We also have a full case of Magpul accessories (not magazines, but stocks, grips, etc). Maybe you should talk to a few of the local shops and see if they could order the stuff for you even if they don't stock it. At least that way they'd know someone locally appreciates quality gear, and they may be able to justify stocking some, which may attract other local customers who would otherwise buy online, which would allow the dealer to stock even more quality gear...and so the cycle goes. Just some insight and my humble opinion/observations.
Sure - I absolutely understand that side of the argument. Brick and Mortar means having to carry lower end products, but when most dealers I have experience with stock only lower end products and then to boot, tout them as quality... :fie:
Carry both and cater to both ends of the spectrum. Of course carry less of the higher end products, but carry them still.
philipeggo
02-15-11, 17:58
I don't know what local businsses you have aroundthere to support, but for me, there is a little shop in Lexington putting out quality rifles, Accurate Armory. They aren't a big name yet, but several local PD's have started using their carbines and I've gotten to play with a couple of their complete rifles. Their quality is excellent and they will work with you on customizing the weapon to your liking. My next build will be an SBR and I'll most likely be working with them on it.
+ 1 . I wanted a custom upper (no front site post,low pro gas block,no hand guards) and i emailed two companies : Spikes which is local to me and Accurate Armory. Actually i called both and got the machine with AA which i expected since they are a new company,then when i called Spikes they answered and were awesome. Long story short i sent them both emails too, AA responded first and answered all my questions . Spikes still hasn't answered me back ,which is a shame since i would have loved to support a local company (not to mention visit the factory) So im going with AA.
+ 1 . I wanted a custom upper (no front site post,low pro gas block,no hand guards) and i emailed two companies : Spikes which is local to me and Accurate Armory. Actually i called both and got the machine with AA which i expected since they are a new company,then when i called Spikes they answered and were awesome. Long story short i sent them both emails too, AA responded first and answered all my questions . Spikes still hasn't answered me back ,which is a shame since i would have loved to support a local company (not to mention visit the factory) So im going with AA.
Good to hear. Keith is a good guy and pretty easy to work with.
I'd pass on that 9mm buffer if that's what it is. Go with the H2 or H3 as Grant suggested. And probably a fresh spring.
We've got one LGS here that stocks a lot of the magpul catalog. And even better, their prices on that stuff is usually right around what Internet price with shipping would be.
Can you recommend any good gun shops and shooting ranges in the Louisville area? Me and some of my buddies will be in the area in May, we're bringing guns, and we want to buy ammo and shoot :)
I don't know who is in your area, but one thing you might consider is having a local shop order a rifle for you and then pay their price. That way the profit margin stays in your community. Heck you could buy from G&R and then pay your local stores transfer fee. That is still all profit for them
thats what i like to do with certain purchases.... i have a bcm lower from gandrtactical being shipped to my local dealer at the moment. it also keeps me in good standing with my local shop. because of that i can call him and tell him i want something and he will order whatever i want without my even going to the shop or putting any money down.
OK, so the buffer I purchased is a Spike's HT-T2 buffer. Weighing in at 4.3 oz, it's right in between the H and H2. We'll see how it works. I bought it at the LGS for the same price as online, plus I didn't have to pay shipping.
To answer a question, I'm in southern Colorado (Pueblo, C Springs, Monument, etc.)....
Pictures coming soon...
I am quite fortunate with my LGS stocking quality parts, it's all Magpul, DD, Troy amongst others. For full rifles it's LMT, DD, S&W. Their prices on accessories are very competitive but they are way up there for full rifles.
As for your rifle, I would do the same thing you are doing; make the necessary upgrades and shoot the crap out of it rather than drop a big chunk of cash on a new build/complete rifle. I am new to AR's but that is advice I have seen given over and over here on M4C. Of course, if you can afford all the extra ammo and some training plus an new rifle, why not?! :D You only live once!
Being able to easily source high quality parts online is the best part of the AR to me. Also, BCM, DD and Noveske are small, community businesses.
A reasonable transfer fee isn't bad money for a simple transaction and they didn't have to pony up hundreds of dollars to keep something in inventory hoping it sells. I'll also buy good accessories locally [if] they have good accessories in stock. I don't mind paying extra because I get them immediately and would have had to pay shipping. The problem is; few gun stores have the quality or selection of parts, magazines and/or holsters/accessories I'd want. Most just have the low end stuff.
I'm very particular though...when I buy a firearm, I know exactly what I want and won't settle at all. If they don't have it, it needs to be ordered from their distributor (at a reasonable price) or I'm getting it online. Wanting a BCM for $1,000 and walking out with a DPMS for $950 that was on their rack...just ain't gonna happen (for me).
I'd pass on that 9mm buffer if that's what it is. Go with the H2 or H3 as Grant suggested. And probably a fresh spring.
Yeah it was very clearly a 9mm buffer. The LGS guy didn't even know. They are good peoples, so I still like them. I looked at what brands they have in stock, and it's about 80% LWRC, a couple Stags, BMs, and Armalites. And that's just the ARs.
They also have Spike's Tactical lowers, LPKs, and a whole host of Magpul stuff....
I am confused. Did you buy a Spike's buffer or a 9mm? They aren't the same. I also find it strange that you came to ask advice about your BM and then end up buying a bunch of stuff that you really don't need to bring it up to speed.
Grant offered good advice. As for supporting your local gun store would you still support them if they sold crap?
Personally I am about saving money and getting quality.
Yeah it was very clearly a 9mm buffer. The LGS guy didn't even know. They are good peoples, so I still like them. I looked at what brands they have in stock, and it's about 80% LWRC, a couple Stags, BMs, and Armalites. And that's just the ARs.
They also have Spike's Tactical lowers, LPKs, and a whole host of Magpul stuff....
I also find it strange that you came to ask advice about your BM and then end up buying a bunch of stuff that you really don't need to bring it up to speed.
I'm somewhat perplexed about this as well.
I bought the Spike's buffer. After I told the guy that I thought it was a 9mm buffer and asked if he had something heavier than a carbine buffer, he pulled the Spike's out from a box behind the counter.
If they sold crap, I wouldn't buy there. Locally, there are a couple shops available. One is a small owner/operator store that the guy runs out of his basement. He's very responsive to his customer's needs, and I'd like to support him as much as I am able. The other has a reputation for snobbery and having outrageous prices. They ARE a very big store (for being local), and you can find anything you'd like in there....all for top dollar.
All the other furniture stuff just helps to make it 'mine,' but then again how unique can I be with a bunch of Magpul stuff on there?
I won't be able to shoot the thing for a couple weeks, and that's plenty of time to get the other stuff taken care of. Planned improvements are (in no particular order):
1) Buffer (done)
2) BCG w/ bolt (ordered)
3) staked gas key (this weekend for the stock one, should be already done on the new one)
4) staked castle nut (can't decide if I want to change the little plate thing first)
5) spare bolt (the stock one becomes the spare when the new BCG arrives)
All should be complete by the end of February, which is the next time that I will be able to get any serious shooting done.
(note to self: crap, March is coming quick, I better straighten my poop out!)
Ok, I am still a little confused here. How many bolts and stuff do you have at this point when everything arrives?
What I would have done is simply replaced the BM bolt with a quality bolt (for example Bravo Company). The original carrier would have been fine- just make sure it is staked. You can also do it with a sharp punch yourself. I won't beat a dead horse about checking the headspace because I have already done it a hundred times here.
A standard H or H2 buffer would have been sufficient.
I bought the Spike's buffer. After I told the guy that I thought it was a 9mm buffer and asked if he had something heavier than a carbine buffer, he pulled the Spike's out from a box behind the counter.
If they sold crap, I wouldn't buy there. Locally, there are a couple shops available. One is a small owner/operator store that the guy runs out of his basement. He's very responsive to his customer's needs, and I'd like to support him as much as I am able. The other has a reputation for snobbery and having outrageous prices. They ARE a very big store (for being local), and you can find anything you'd like in there....all for top dollar.
All the other furniture stuff just helps to make it 'mine,' but then again how unique can I be with a bunch of Magpul stuff on there?
I won't be able to shoot the thing for a couple weeks, and that's plenty of time to get the other stuff taken care of. Planned improvements are (in no particular order):
1) Buffer (done)
2) BCG w/ bolt (ordered)
3) staked gas key (this weekend for the stock one, should be already done on the new one)
4) staked castle nut (can't decide if I want to change the little plate thing first)
5) spare bolt (the stock one becomes the spare when the new BCG arrives)
All should be complete by the end of February, which is the next time that I will be able to get any serious shooting done.
(note to self: crap, March is coming quick, I better straighten my poop out!)
Ok, so here's the intent:
Have a higher quality bcg complete w/ bolt. Use the factory bcg as a spare. The buffer was/is one of those things where i was able to buy from the LGS.
I beg to differ on BM's not being of quality. I bought my first Ar in 1998, a BM post ban in M16A2 config. I have used many different mags, Pmags to old .mil surplus black followers, and 10+ different brands of ammo with bullet weight going from 52 to 62 grains, firing more then 4000 rounds through it. It has never given me any problems. It out of the box and still does group well, and every time my booger hook presses down on the bang switch it goes boom. I mean I have 0 failure to feed in 13 years. I once went 720 rounds of remmington green box 55 grain in one range session, It has been a fine rifle.
Did you bother to read Grant's post or any of the other BM posts here? Probably not. You may well have a decent running BM that works. However, consistency (which is very important) is lacking and across the board you will see it isn't the case.
I would ask you to use the ORANGE SEARCH BUTTON at the top and type in Bushmaster and read some.
A sample of one doesn't mean anything.
I beg to differ on BM's not being of quality. I bought my first Ar in 1998, a BM post ban in M16A2 config. I have used many different mags, Pmags to old .mil surplus black followers, and 10+ different brands of ammo with bullet weight going from 52 to 62 grains, firing more then 4000 rounds through it. It has never given me any problems. It out of the box and still does group well, and every time my booger hook presses down on the bang switch it goes boom. I mean I have 0 failure to feed in 13 years. I once went 720 rounds of remmington green box 55 grain in one range session, It has been a fine rifle.
IMHO the tier crud is BS. I do not see the need to pay $2000 to get what I can for less the $900. I have had 3 AR fully assembled (Have soem stripped lowers I am buying parts for) the BM, a colt, and a S&W. Only the colt gave me issues, started to jam after less the 200 rounds no matter the ammo or mags. I have several friends with BM's and RRA's no issues, one got one last year to replace a post ban DPMS that was stolen in a burgary, as of 2 weeks ago when we shot togther he had fired 1100 rounds without cleaning and no isssues.
For the type of training that I plan on doing, I think 700+ rounds in one day is about minimum... probably even a conservative number. Others with more experience in these things will be able to answer more accurately.... HOWEVER:
An AR is a machine. As such, things will break, wear out, etc. I've noticed things about my particular BM that make me not feel comfortable about using it for one of those training courses until I get it straightened out.
If several hundred people, including those people who have 'industry professional' attached to their name all say that x, y, and z are prone to fail.... well, I'm in no place to disagree. I just don't have the experience to do so.
I feel that I have been given good advice, and I have made a plan to get those things taken care of.
I'm actually glad to hear that your rifle has given you great service and meets the needs to you place on it. Mine has given me 99% great service. BUT, I anticipate my needs changing in the next month or so, so I'll take the steps now to stop as many future problems as possible.
I beg to differ on BM's not being of quality. I bought my first Ar in 1998, a BM post ban in M16A2 config. I have used many different mags, Pmags to old .mil surplus black followers, and 10+ different brands of ammo with bullet weight going from 52 to 62 grains, firing more then 4000 rounds through it. It has never given me any problems. It out of the box and still does group well, and every time my booger hook presses down on the bang switch it goes boom. I mean I have 0 failure to feed in 13 years. I once went 720 rounds of remmington green box 55 grain in one range session, It has been a fine rifle.
I beg to differ on BM's not being of quality. I bought my first Ar in 1998, a BM post ban in M16A2
+1 on what IG said, plus you have to keep in mind that your sample is closing on being 13 years out of date.
We're looking at current trends here. Things change over time.
IMHO the tier crud is BS.
Do you even know who "they" are? Unlike other gun forums, most of the people who post here are Former/current Military, LE, Dealers, Armorers, Competitors. If Bushmaster etc. really worked that well, don't you think they'd save their money and buy cheaper? The fact is, for a recreational paper puncher, BM, RRA, etc will likely never fail in it's course of service. If, however, you run classes, matches, or life-saving operations, the gun will get hot, and lesser quality/out of spec parts will fail. Don't mistake professionals' experience for fanboy-ism. There's a reason people here recommend quality gear, and no, "their crud" is not BS.
Hello and welcome to the forum!
I would buy the spare parts that wear our or break (on any AR) and just shoot your gun.
Parts list to keep around:
1. Bolt
2. Extractor spring and insert
3. Buffer Spring
About that only thing I would buy now is an H2 or H3 buffer (as your gun is over gassed. Those are cheap and easy and will make a difference.
Save your money (that you would have spent on upgrades or a new AR) and put it towards training. You will be much better off in the long run.
C4
Sage advice.
OP- it's cheap to upgrade your barrel once you shoot this one out.
I'm at a bit of a crossroads, though. I know that I can "fix" parts of my BM and make it better than what it started out, or I can save my dough and drop it on a REAL firearm.
-Bely
This is quickly becoming a peeve of mine.
A BM is a REAL firearm. It is not a toy. It suffers from various deficiencies as pointed out by the members, stickes, and info on this sight. It is not the choice of a professional, nor is it the recommendation of the professional.
But its a real firearm.
The enemy, be it paper. talilban, or crackhead does not care if you have a DD/BM/Stag/whatever. The difference is in the user and the confidence of their system to function.
IMHO the tier crud is BS. I do not see the need to pay $2000 to get what I can for less the $900.
The tier crud is indeed BS to any with an emotional attachment to their purchases. When able to take a step back and view the market objectively, across it's spectrum and in numbers that mean something (yours only mean something to YOU, which is peachy but do not establish anything but a local trend....local to you, specifically, and therefore of no bearing until mated up with other data), it is not. It's an arbitrary grading system of sorts, which isn't exactly an uncommon thing in any industry one'd care to mention.
It's disingenuous to say that one doesn't NEED to pay $2000 to get what one can for less than $900. That's factual only in the shallow sense that if you're paying $2000 for a $900 gun, one is an idiot, a rube, or both.
In this particular idiom, however, the trend is for that $2000 gun from a top-tier manufacturer IS a $2000 gun, while a $900 Bushmaster or similar is actually a $750 gun. The former is only a waste of money to the purchaser if they can't shoot well enough or often enough to justify dropping that kind of cash. The latter is a waste of money because, if one is shooting often enough, there are better options abailable than a manufacturer that has a known and verifiable history of taking gigantic shortcuts in regard to the Colt TDP in addition to manufacturing shortcuts.
The "tier crud" is not BS, you simply don't like it. Big difference. When you see and shoot weapons a few thousand at a time, trends come forward that one'd be hard-pressed to notice with a sample size of 3 guns. We're all victims of our frame of reference.
IMHO the tier crud is BS. I do not see the need to pay $2000 to get what I can for less the $900. I have had 3 AR fully assembled (Have soem stripped lowers I am buying parts for) the BM, a colt, and a S&W. Only the colt gave me issues, started to jam after less the 200 rounds no matter the ammo or mags. I have several friends with BM's and RRA's no issues, one got one last year to replace a post ban DPMS that was stolen in a burgary, as of 2 weeks ago when we shot togther he had fired 1100 rounds without cleaning and no isssues.
I don't think you are paying attention. Did you read my thread???
No on said that you had to buy a $2k rifle. In fact for about $900-$1K you can have a top of the line weapon (FYI).
I know we cover this on the forum a lot, but here is a refresher. Yes, your low quality AR (BM/RRA/DPMS/ETC) can and will function. When you use the cheapest parts you can and don't correctly assemble them, the odds of something going wrong climbs DRAMATICALLY.
Keep in mind that there are people here that do this stuff for a living (professional armorer's). Their experience with said weapon trumps yours X 1000.
C4
The enemy, ... talilban, or crackhead does not care if you have a DD/BM/Stag/whatever. The difference is in the user and the confidence of their system to function.
*YOU* will care - if you ever have to face such a person or persons.
Murphy is alive and well in the firearms community. It's best to give him as little bait as possible.
Doc Safari
02-16-11, 09:26
*YOU* will care - if you ever have to face such a person or persons.
Murphy is alive and well in the firearms community. It's best to give him as little bait as possible.
This is reason enough to own a top-tier weapon, and why I relied on the expert advice of members of this forum when getting back into AR's last summer.
I don't often talk about my personal experiences on the net, but my claim to fame is that I talked my department into writing their procurement specs so that only a top tier manufacturer like Colt would get the business rather than Bushmaster.
I admit I was once fooled by Bushmaster's lofty claims of quality. Then I found out the hard way that it was hot air. I cannot look at a Bushmaster with anything but contempt now. It's no coincidence that Bushmaster and bowel movement are both abbreviated "BM."
I don't have confidence in my BM. In the future maybe I will, but maybe I need to get something different.
I'm not going to know what I can and can't trust until I really put this thing through the paces.
The loudest sound I've ever heard was a CLICK when I was expecting a BANG. (true story) It can happen to anyone, anywhere, at anytime. As such, I will continue to get better training, equipment, etc. until I feel confident enough that things like that don't happen again.
The enemy, be it paper. talilban, or crackhead does not care if you have a DD/BM/Stag/whatever. The difference is in the user and the confidence of their system to function.
*YOU* will care - if you ever have to face such a person or persons.
Murphy is alive and well in the firearms community. It's best to give him as little bait as possible.
That was precisely my point.
I'm not disputing that bushmaster is an inferior product. Nor do I dispute the need to improve a stock bm to be field ready.
What I am saying is that just because you have an inferior product doesn't make it not real.
It's a clips/magazine thing.
Again im not suggesting bm is field grade. I am saying it's a real rifleand not a toy.
I personally prefer the Bushmaster Rollmark.............. so I put a BCM upper on it.
We have an old A1 upper with M4 barrel that Dad got for $450, It shoots and that's about all we ask of it........... cuz I got the BCM hotness for serious work.
Let me clarify.
A rifle in 22lr is a real rifle. No one would suggest arming the USMC with a rifle in that caliber.
A Bushmaster is a real rifle. As pointed out here and not disputed by me a stock Bushmaster is not the tool for a serious shooter.
Also there is another guy with TX in front of his name arguing that BM is a field grade rifle. That is NOT my position.
as promised, I posted pics in the picture forum. I'm way at the end, page 499 I think.
I'm not that good at photography, so please don't be expecting super duper pictures..
The "tier crud" is not BS, you simply don't like it.
consider that stolen.
IMHO the tier crud is BS. I do not see the need to pay $2000 to get what I can for less the $900.
You discredit yourself in your first sentence. Nobody that knows shit from brown bread is going to read past this.
$810 and far better than any BM (http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-midlength-le-carbine-p-443.html)
$1,000 and better still (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-750-C)
$1,200 and best thing going (http://www.policeguns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_236&products_id=6615&osCsid=ev055ekj9ilbuc64mb96b0kff1)
$1,500 and top of the heap (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lrb-556&cat=138&page=1&search=&since=&status=)
Where is this mythical $2,000 gun again?
Where is this mythical $2,000 gun again?
Does LWRC count? I know it's a piston system, but they DO cost about $2k, right?
http://www.impactguns.com/store/lwrc_rifles.html
Does LWRC count? I know it's a piston system, but they DO cost about $2k, right?
http://www.impactguns.com/store/lwrc_rifles.html
$1,550 Basic model with stock, grip, and sight upgrades (http://www.impactguns.com/store/LWRCM6R5B16.html). apples:apples.
I myself have no need for a $2k AR.
A quick look at LGS prices for BM, RRA ect compared to online prices for BCM, Colt ect is a no brainer.
Re: cost.
I think it depends on what the person is looking at and where. I have seen various web vendors of DD, Noveske etc hawking UPPERS in the 1-2K range. They of course are being sold with rails, BUIS, BCG's etc. The cost of a stripped BCM vs a "drop in ready" upper can be quite extreme depending on where you are looking.
For example:
http://www.impactguns.com/store/NOV-UPPER-10.5.html
I personally prefer the Bushmaster Rollmark.............. so I put a BCM upper on it.
We have an old A1 upper with M4 barrel that Dad got for $450, It shoots and that's about all we ask of it........... cuz I got the BCM hotness for serious work.
That was sarcasm... right?:confused:
I don't have confidence in my BM. In the future maybe I will, but maybe I need to get something different.
I'm not going to know what I can and can't trust until I really put this thing through the paces.
The loudest sound I've ever heard was a CLICK when I was expecting a BANG. (true story) It can happen to anyone, anywhere, at anytime. As such, I will continue to get better training, equipment, etc. until I feel confident enough that things like that don't happen again.
Well,that's the clincher right there. You don't have confidence in your rifle. Me thinks you've made up your mind to get a better rifle. So quit dropping money on what you have and start saving for what you want. You'll feel better in the long run and will quit wasting time, money,and mental drain on what you believe is a less than optimum machine. Plus you'll end up with two AR's. Nothing wrong with that.
I concur.
Hello and welcome to the forum!
I would buy the spare parts that wear our or break (on any AR) and just shoot your gun.
Parts list to keep around:
1. Bolt
2. Extractor spring and insert
3. Buffer Spring
About that only thing I would buy now is an H2 or H3 buffer (as your gun is over gassed. Those are cheap and easy and will make a difference.
Save your money (that you would have spent on upgrades or a new AR) and put it towards training. You will be much better off in the long run.
C4
I concur.
I do as well. There are those who, no matter what, will always voice their disdain for some of the lower-end manufacturers out there. They will make it known from the mountain tops. What they fail to realize there are those who do not need or want an AR for any reason other than to punch holes in paper. Then there are those who believe that the only AR to own is a (dare I say it?) a "top tier" (:fie:) AR such as LAC, BCM, DD, Noveske, etc.
What Grant said is sound advice. Shoot your BM till it can't shoots no more. Then go buy a "top tier" (uh oh I said it again... :eek:... may the heavens strike me down for such 'Evil' rhetoric... Muuahhahahaha) rifle.
I bought a BM a year ago before i found this site. Upon first reading the criticism of the brand i was a little upset. I owned a Oly during the big Brady ban and sold it about 8 years back to pay bills. I worked at a pawn shop and was taught my ABC's. I bought a Texas DPS carbine i found used at Gander Mountain and it has been a great rifle. But i decided to read and learn before i posted and i learned, ALOT. I love my BM it is a great recreational gun for me and the wife. But on friday i get my Bravo Company upper to go on my spikes lower and the BCM bolt will hopefully arrive on Saturday or Monday. I paid 999.95 before tax for my BM. Shipping and all i will come in at 1005.00 on my custom build.
What i have ordered.
Spikes tactical Jolly Roger stripped lower.
Magpul ASAP
Palmetto State armory LPK-mil spec buffer tube and moe furniture.
BCM 14.5 M4 upper with a2x perm
BCM bolt complete
BCM gunfighter medium charging handle
Magpul carbine hand guard
Magpul BUS rear.
My lovely wife ordered me the upper and did not realize that the bolt and charging handle were not included because she wanted to surprise me. So i ordered them separately.
So with my experience i am not sure why anyone would want to go with an inferior product.
I bought the spikes locally and the shop i bought from was selling Spikes complete m4's with all Magpul furniture for 995.00.
I have yet to find a better deal for a quality rifle.
I want to thank all the knowledgeable people for helping me to learn what was incorrectly drilled into my head.
I do as well. There are those who, no matter what, will always voice their disdain for some of the lower-end manufacturers out there. They will make it known from the mountain tops. What they fail to realize there are those who do not need or want an AR for any reason other than to punch holes in paper. Then there are those who believe that the only AR to own is a (dare I say it?) a "top tier" (:fie:) AR such as LAC, BCM, DD, Noveske, etc.
I don't know that this is necessarily true. If a person is starting from zero, with no gun in hand, it makes sense for them to buy the best quality they can for their price. Spike's makes a better gun than anyone else at their price-point, and better than many that get a higher price. Regardless of application, buying lower quality for a higher price is just stupid.
Additionally, I don't like things to fail. While I am in construction I am not a tradesman, but I still buy Dewalt hand tools when I can because I see more of them work for longer periods of time than other brands in the hands of my field guys. I don't "need" a Dewalt to hang the ol' lady's coathook but I've gotten tired of the POS hobby grade tools breaking when I need them.
What Grant said is sound advice. Shoot your BM till it can't shoots no more. Then go buy a "top tier" (uh oh I said it again... :eek:... may the heavens strike me down for such 'Evil' rhetoric... Muuahhahahaha) rifle.
I do agree, however, that a bird in the hand with the right staking and springs is worth two in the bush that are perfect.
I bought a BM a year ago before i found this site. Upon first reading the criticism of the brand i was a little upset. I owned a Oly during the big Brady ban and sold it about 8 years back to pay bills. I worked at a pawn shop and was taught my ABC's. I bought a Texas DPS carbine i found used at Gander Mountain and it has been a great rifle. But i decided to read and learn before i posted and i learned, ALOT. I love my BM it is a great recreational gun for me and the wife. But on friday i get my Bravo Company upper to go on my spikes lower and the BCM bolt will hopefully arrive on Saturday or Monday. I paid 999.95 before tax for my BM. Shipping and all i will come in at 1005.00 on my custom build.
What i have ordered.
Spikes tactical Jolly Roger stripped lower.
Palmetto State armory LPK-mil spec buffer tube and moe furniture.
BCM 14.5 M4 upper with a2x perm
BCM bolt complete
BCM gunfighter medium charging handle
Magpul carbine hand guard
Magpul BUS rear.
My lovely wife ordered me the upper and did not realize that the bolt and charging handle were not included because she wanted to surprise me. So i ordered them separately.
So with my experience i am not sure why anyone would want to go with an inferior product.
I bought the spikes locally and the shop i bought from was selling Spikes complete m4's with all Magpul furniture for 995.00.
I have yet to find a better deal for a quality rifle.
I want to thank all the knowledgeable people for helping me to learn what was incorrectly drilled into my head.
So clearly there are those who are simply recreational shooters and then there are those who want a quality rifle to depend their lives on. Some people are both.
You sir are both and that is perfectly fine.
I still feel dirty because my lower has a BM roll mark. The old HBar A2 upper sits in the closet replaced by a Spikes. The receiver extension will be replaced shortly and the h2 buffer is waiting for the collapse m4 stock that is in the mail.(vltor was out of stock in my color).
Thus all that is left of my original BM will be the lower, minus the stock.
I'm not out that much as my original BM was a post ban circa 1998 when BM was the thing to get. Times change.
And ill still be looked down on despite doing exactly what the forum stickies say. However my new optic came with some sage advice. (courtesy of DDef).
"Go shoot your rifle"
I'll get over feeling dirty. In the end Id rather be looked on as a good shooter with a bad rifle than a lousy shooter, with a good rifle.
I did the buy once cry once. Started my rifle with a blackthorne upper. Bit by bit I replaced it to resolve issues until there was no more of their junk on my rifle. But then I still felt strange having the old Sharps lower on it so it went too. Now the buffer tube and spring and MBUIS are all that remain from my initial mistake and I have a rifle I wouldn't hesitate to trust my life to.
Mr. Biggles
02-16-11, 15:09
I'm at a bit of a crossroads, though. I know that I can "fix" parts of my BM and make it better than what it started out, or I can save my dough and drop it on a REAL firearm.
I feel morally obligated to support my local businesses/small businesses/I think you know where I'm going with that. I'll even over pay a bit if I know that it helps put the money back into a local community. If you're still reading, here's where my question is:
What are the smaller makers that still produce a good, quality product?
-Bely
Noveske is local, at least to me. I don't mind supporting local vendors. =)
Here ------> Noveske (http://www.noveske.com)
I say, save you're money, and go with something that you'll absolutely love. As the saying goes, (Buy once, cry once).
Noveske usually has some pretty sweet deals from time to time, which sometimes includes a free *blemished?* lower with the purchase of a upper.
I still feel dirty because my lower has a BM roll mark. The old HBar A2 upper sits in the closet replaced by a Spikes. The receiver extension will be replaced shortly and the h2 buffer is waiting for the collapse m4 stock that is in the mail.(vltor was out of stock in my color).
Thus all that is left of my original BM will be the lower, minus the stock.
I'm not out that much as my original BM was a post ban circa 1998 when BM was the thing to get. Times change.
Times certainly do change.
Since I'm a Californian, all of my go-to ARs have BM lowers. Those were purchased back in '99 during the huge ban ramp-up. My CA-neutered rifles are a mix/match of Kaiser Defense, and LMT lowers.
The roll-mark doesn't bother me, as none of my BM lowers have given me any grief. They all have H buffers and mil receiver extensions, so all is good. Two of them have seen good use in classes, and extra curricular training. All my rifles wear LMT or BCM complete uppers.
I think the message that is trying to be said here is this:
The lower receiver does not determine the quality of the rifle.
The upper receiver does not determine the quality of the rifle.
The barrel determines the quality of the rifle.
The bolt determines the quality of the rifle.
The carrier determines the quality of the rifle.
The fire control components determine the quality of the rifle.
I can take a stripped oly lower and upper receiver components and put a quality barrel, BCG, and LPK and that rifle would be just as good as a complete BCM, DD, LMT, etc.
Even if I missed a component, my point still stands. It is not the lower or the upper receiver that make that rifle good or not good.
With that said if a part is out of spec, then that is a different matter all together. Even the top manufacturers make components out of spec from time to time.
I think this thread is just about over and we are simply beating a dead horse.
RancidSumo
02-16-11, 18:52
If you can make it up to Arvada, there is a store called 5280 armory. I don't know how there prices compare to what you can get online but they stock DD, Noveske, KAC, Colt, and other top of the line AR brands (along with all the crap too of course). They have some really cool SBR Noveske uppers that I would love to get my hands on.
What the **** is tier crud? Sorry, I don't into silly "tier" nonsense. I buy into a quality manufacturer that has a proven track record. You make a point of mentioning some Colt that had issues. And once again we are talking a sample of one.
How many Colts are in use in combat on a daily basis by our troops? Now tell me how many BM's?
Every Colt that I have seen fail was either improperly maintained or dicked with by someone who shouldn't be allowed to own hand tools.
Jam is something that goes on toast for breakfast. Malfunctions are something that happen to firearms.
The 1100 round comparison means nothing unless it was in 1 weekend. My SBR has over 3500 rounds through it with almost no cleaning and it is still running. 500 of which were in 2 days. So what's the point?
IMHO the tier crud is BS. I do not see the need to pay $2000 to get what I can for less the $900. I have had 3 AR fully assembled (Have soem stripped lowers I am buying parts for) the BM, a colt, and a S&W. Only the colt gave me issues, started to jam after less the 200 rounds no matter the ammo or mags. I have several friends with BM's and RRA's no issues, one got one last year to replace a post ban DPMS that was stolen in a burgary, as of 2 weeks ago when we shot togther he had fired 1100 rounds without cleaning and no isssues.
Jam is something that goes on toast for breakfast. Malfunctions are something that happen to firearms.
STOLEN! :lol:
RogerinTPA
02-16-11, 20:42
In addition to what Grant suggested, I'd get the chamber reamed for peace of mind.
Long time lurker, obviously this is my first post.
I bought my first AR in 2004, a BM XM-15 thingy. I can't say that I have buyer's remorse as I've only used it as a paper slayer at the range and I've never run it hard. As such, I've only had a couple FTE and it was due to a worn extractor spring.
It's not hard for me to admit that my BM isn't exactly 'professional grade'. I know it's not, and I've been reading a lot on here about what build processes, quality of materials, testing procedures, etc. go into making the most reliable weapon. I've taken my time and read most of the stickies here and in the technical section.
I'm at a bit of a crossroads, though. I know that I can "fix" parts of my BM and make it better than what it started out, or I can save my dough and drop it on a REAL firearm.
I understand that it would be very easy to just drop the cash on a BCM/DD/Colt/LMT and call it a day. I feel morally obligated to support my local businesses/small businesses/I think you know where I'm going with that. I'll even over pay a bit if I know that it helps put the money back into a local community. If you're still reading, here's where my question is:
What are the smaller makers that still produce a good, quality product?
Thanks for reading my rambling, and I look forward to learning as much as I can..
-Bely
Now that I know where you are, I'll make a recommendation. Check out AR Performance in Pueblo. It is a small shop that makes ARs and is very active in the 6.8SPC community. They also have 5.56/.223 as well as other caliber ARs. My last 2 6.8SPC AR uppers have been built by Harrison, who is the main guy there.
I'm at a cross roads:
I need my new gun pretty quick. LGS has several flavors around the $1k mark. Good companies/manufacturers.
Several piston guns are included in their inventory..... I know that the piston/DI debate can be pretty heated, so I won't open those flood gates here.
AR Performance is an awesome company; I own one of their 6.8 uppers and use it as a light deer/big varminter rifle. Their lead time for what I'd like is a little bit longer than I need right now, strictly based on what their internet site states. I haven't been able to get a hold of them via phone yet, so that may change.
That's where I'm at, sorry to resurrect this thread from the depths...
-Belly
OK, now that everyone has been waiting for me to resurrect this thread yet again, here's what I decided:
Daniel Defense DDM4v1.
It has all the wonderful little details that I was looking for. Hopefully it provides all the wonderful comforts that my Bushy was not able to provide.
The decision was difficult and yet easy at the same time, and I'm very happy with my choice.
OK, now that everyone has been waiting for me to resurrect this thread yet again, here's what I decided:
Daniel Defense DDM4v1.
It has all the wonderful little details that I was looking for. Hopefully it provides all the wonderful comforts that my Bushy was not able to provide.
The decision was difficult and yet easy at the same time, and I'm very happy with my choice. That wasn't so hard now was it? You now have a quality rifle and a backup if you choose to keep it. With two ARs,you can now put both of them to the test and actually find out firsthand which one lives up to your expectations. Excellent decision.
I ended up selling the BM to help fund the new blaster. I'd like to say that I got a good deal....
Now, I just need to start shooting, and more shooting...
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