View Full Version : Next Generation Arms X7
I have one of these in-hand and will be getting some range time with it shortly. I see several things here that appear promising or that have potential.
iPhone pictures only for now.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/photo-19-2.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/photo3-2.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/photo4-1.jpg
There is a prior thread on them here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34795) that was rather un-favorable, but I think it's safe to say that they clearly have moved beyond where they were at that time.
From their website (http://www.nextgenerationarms.com/), a description of the gun:
X7 Main Features Summary
Chassis – All 7075 T6 Aluminum. Lower receiver and forend are custom billet designs made in-house at NGA. Upper receiver is a modified Nordic Mil-Spec hammer-forged unit. Buffer tube is Mil-Spec impact extruded from VLTOR.
Lower receiver – Expanded, flared mag well for faster loading and more finger room in clearance drills. All aspects of magazine handling & holding have been improved. The front of the mag well was curved for more comfortable hand holding for those who grip this way. 0.154” fire control pins with 0.0005” tolerance.
Rails – All rails are Mil-Spec 1913. Top rail is continuous and nearly seamless. Side rails are short and set back from the front for ergonomic reasons. The standard configuration is without a bottom rail, but a rail kit is available for mounting vertical foregrips and bipods.
Forend ergonomics - Special emphasis went into the ergonomics of hand-holding for various types of grip. The circumference was reduced to a bare minimum to fit all hand sizes. The small side rails were moved back away from the front in order to allow indexing for the two most common forward grip styles.
Charging handle – BCM Gunfighter 7075 billet Aluminum with medium latch.
Barrels - Barrels are exclusively from Noveske Rifleworks. They are made from extra-hard 416R stainless steel, with NGA stainless steel gas blocks and compensators, ported for mid-length, direct gas impingement operation. Rifling is polygonal 5 lands/grooves, 1:7" twist. Barrels are guaranteed accurate within 1 MOA. Other barrels were tested and we hoped to select some lower cost options, but in the end, only Noveske barrels met all of our expectations. Recommended bullet weight range for 1:7" barrels is 55 - 77g. Hopefully soon, we'll introduce a Noveske varmint barrel suitable for lighter weight bullets.
* 14.5” modified Afghan profile, permanently affixed compensator
* 16" heavy profile, screw-on compensator
Gas block – stainless steel, micro gas block designed and mfg’d by NGA.
Compensator – stainless steel, designed and mfg’d by NGA; each barrel option has a specifically tuned version of the compensator that achieves perfect muzzle neutrality.
Trigger options - Any trigger from the Geissele Automatics catalog can be configured. The 2 most popular options are the SSA and the S3G, which we believe are the best triggers on the market for most purposes. Note that Geissele uses ultra precision EDM to machine these tool steel triggers and they use extra heavy hammer springs for the fastest possible lock time and lowest chance of light primer strikes.
Bolt carrier group - BCM is now the exclusive supplier for the BCG. The bolt is made of Carpenter 158. Each bolt is shot-peened, initially MPI tested, high pressure proof tested and re-MPI'd. NGA re-torques and adds redundant staking to the gas key fasteners. NGA ceramic coating reduces fouling, corrosion and maintenance.
Buffer system – H2 buffer and custom heavy oil-hardened chrome silicon spring designed for millions of cycles.
Furniture - VLTOR IMOD Mil-Spec butt stock and generic Mil-Spec pistol grip.
Sling mounts – 2 stainless steel QD ports are provided at the rear of the forend and 1 is permanently mounted in the rear of the lower receiver.
Finish – Ceramic coated inside and out. Matte gray chassis and black equipment.
Weight: 6.6+ lbs empty, no sights, depending on barrel selected
Price: $2445+
I have been interested them since I read up on them on another website. The videos of Mike Pannone shooting them is impressive, but he could run a Brown Bess musket well in a carbine course.
Not a big fan of the permanent comp, but the rest looks spiffy.
Not a big fan of the permanent comp, but the rest looks spiffy.
I do not believe they are permanent on the 16" barrels.
Looks interesting. That price tag makes me nervous. What is on that rifle that warrants that cost exactly? It looks like most of the components are BCM, VLTOR, and Noveske. Trying to see what is eating most of the cost there. I ask only because I cannot figure it out.
I love the matte grey color scheme. :neo:
Looks interesting. That price tag makes me nervous. What is on that rifle that warrants that cost exactly? It looks like most of the components are BCM, VLTOR, and Noveske. Trying to see what is eating most of the cost there. I ask only because I cannot figure it out.
They are attempting to make/market a premium AR. As such, they are working towards providing some of the highest quality, and therefore most expensive, parts available. I believe that a good portion of the costs can be found in the trigger (Geissele SSA, a $170 part, standard S3G for $70 premium over that), barrel (Noveske, a $455 barrel), and the fact that the lower is billet. Factor in an attempt to improve on parts like the safety, mag cach, bolt catch, receiver endplate, and the fact that the gun comes with a rail system and better-than-M4 stock and the price quickly starts to add up.
One of the things I'll be doing in my eval is a cost-comparison to build a competitive gun from scratch. Until then I'm not entirely sure how the numbers will shake out but certainly understand the reservations about cost. It should go without saying, but they understand that they will be a niche market.
Hello all. My first post at m4carbine.net. I'm the designer of almost all the new stuff on the X7. Do with me what you will!
So far there's not much to add here except to note that the S3G trigger is a $63 upgrade from the SSA and the price of the X7 was set to the minimum needed for our small company to become profitable. That being said, it is definitely regrettable that the price is so high and we did try mightily to come in under $2000, but c'est la vie.
There's no question you can build a mostly-comparable AR yourself for less. At least it will have equal quality parts and will shoot really well and reliably. Can you equal the muzzle neutrality and resulting rounds on target per second, magazine performance and fit/finish? We shall see:)
p.s. - I'll stay out of Rob's way unless you all need me for something. Just holler!
I will reserve judgement until ofter Rob_s' review. It looks great. I would love to get my hands on one and fire a few hundred rounds through it. I would love to compare it to my SR15. I do not have a BCM middy yet. But I would love to see the X7 pitted up again a "top tier" (oh no you didn't... yes I did... :eek:) rifle.
It actually is a very nice looking AR pattern rifle and i give you guys kudos for the design.
Nothing on there really looks poorly thought out.
My only raised eyebrow goes towards the smooth mag release. Why did you guys opt to go with a mag release that has no knurling or texture on it?
Any thoughts on licensing the adax or Atac or whatever they're called mag release/BHO feature?
Also, one more question, is the gas block pinned or clamped? I might have glossed over that in the description of the gun.
Rob, when do i get to shoot this thing so i can try to break it? ;)
Rattlehead
02-16-11, 15:46
Looks like a nice rifle.
That rail reminds me of the URX III.
...snip..
My only raised eyebrow goes towards the smooth mag release. Why did you guys opt to go with a mag release that has no knurling or texture on it?
Any thoughts on licensing the adax or Atac or whatever they're called mag release/BHO feature?
Also, one more question, is the gas block pinned or clamped? I might have glossed over that in the description of the gun.
...snip...
;)
The smooth mag release button is more than a design statement. We tested 3 levels of texture before verifying that less is more. Texture actually makes it less likely that your finger will slide across the button to locate the center. So that's an efficiency thing. There's no way your finger will fall off the button with all that fencing around it. Texturing is needlessly abrasive. One of the goals of the X7 was to eliminate all sources of cutting, pinching, gnawing and biting. That may not be at all important to you guys but the ladies really do care about these details. And after all that, the smooth button looks better.
I like the A-DAC a lot but there are no plans to stray from the 100% std manual of arms as yet. The best thing imo about their innovation is that it improves without adding extra buttons, so I'm open to the idea at least.
Here's a photo of the new mag catch subassembly along with the old std. Note the stronger mag catch with very much better mag ramp. Hopefully this attempt to insert photo will work...
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/mag_catch.jpg
The gas block is clamped and pinned. Meaning there's a roll pin pressed in to lock the clamp screw threads. All red loctite'd (262).
One thing I can say about my correspondence with the guys at NGA is that while we may not agree on every little detail, nobody can accuse them of not thinking everything through and having a reason for what they do. That alone sets them well apart from the majority of the runofthemill AR brands.
One thing I can say about my correspondence with the guys at NGA is that while we may not agree on every little detail, nobody can accuse them of not thinking everything through and having a reason for what they do. That alone sets them well apart from the majority of the runofthemill AR brands.
Rob, the major difference here is that these guys actually DESIGNED a variation of the AR platform.
The rest of the yahoos out there cranking out "new and improved" AR15's are merely slapping racing stripes onto an AR and calling it "better".
I give the NGA guys alot of credit, the AR certainly does look cool, functional and worth every penny, but to me, its too expensive as the benefits that justify the cost cannot be justified by the contents of my wallet.
Its not a knock against NGA because i do believe these guys are the FIRST to truly create a Ferrari quality AR15, unfortunately i, and many poor saps like me cannot afford a Ferrari. :)
I wish the NGA gents all the best as i like their brand of customer service and how open they are about what it is that they intended to do with their design. Well done guys.
EDIT: Rob, you didnt answer my question. When do i get to drive your new whip and um...break it...like i originally promised? :)
Two related questions: what made you guys decide on a heavy barrel profile and how's the balance with the heavy barrel out front on a 6.6 lb rifle?
I'll be honest that the price doesn't really turn me off. A from-scratch, ground-up AR full of good parts will very, very easily hit the $2500-2700 range (including light and optic). A Knight's gun will run $2k before lights and optics too, so that really only puts this rifle a few hundred more than a premium home-built or KAC rifle. I'm okay with that.
-B
One thing I can say about my correspondence with the guys at NGA is that while we may not agree on every little detail, nobody can accuse them of not thinking everything through and having a reason for what they do. That alone sets them well apart from the majority of the runofthemill AR brands.
I don't care why something is the way it is as long as the person(s) who made it that way had thought about and made it that way for a purpose.
Two related questions: what made you guys decide on a heavy barrel profile and how's the balance with the heavy barrel out front on a 6.6 lb rifle?
I'll be honest that the price doesn't really turn me off. A from-scratch, ground-up AR full of good parts will very, very easily hit the $2500-2700 range (including light and optic). A Knight's gun will run $2k before lights and optics too, so that really only puts this rifle a few hundred more than a premium home-built or KAC rifle. I'm okay with that.
-B
The Noveske Afghan is approx 32 oz while the M4 is approx 25 oz. Why the extra almost half pound?
The answer is we're interested in multi-role capability. The Afghan and related 16" Noveske barrels are well-known for long-range accuracy (meaning beyond 300 yards). The sacrifice is a bit of front-heaviness, admittedly. It's not bad though, but I hate to defend that with just my word. Check with Mike Pannone and soon Rob will weigh-in with his take on that. Mike's speed drill times have all reached record lows with the X7.
I had an opportunity to shoot the X7 at Mike Pannone's class. It is a supremely smooth-shooting AR, and extremely accurate.
It is unlike any other AR out there. I'm not big on the ginormous SAFE / FIRE but that's my only complaint.
NGA, you should know that there are a few guys on this board who believe that slotted rail sections are unacceptable because they claim it will reduce the accuracy of the optic. (see the Samson Evolution rail thread) Anyone who saw the group that Mike shot at 100 yards with an EOTech will laugh at that.
Have you guys thought about getting Vltor to make a run of iMods in grey so the carpet matches the drapes?
EDIT: Rob, you didnt answer my question. When do i get to drive your new whip and um...break it...like i originally promised? :)
I'll have it at drills in march.
I had an opportunity to shoot the X7 at Mike Pannone's class. It is a supremely smooth-shooting AR, and extremely accurate.
It is unlike any other AR out there. I'm not big on the ginormous SAFE / FIRE but that's my only complaint.
NGA, you should know that there are a few guys on this board who believe that slotted rail sections are unacceptable because they claim it will reduce the accuracy of the optic. (see the Samson Evolution rail thread) Anyone who saw the group that Mike shot at 100 yards with an EOTech will laugh at that.
Have you guys thought about getting Vltor to make a run of iMods in grey so the carpet matches the drapes?
As usual there are reasons for what's why. WRT the "ginormous" safety selector labels, we wanted to be easy on Pat Rogers' eyes from across the range:) Also, if your wife is defending her life with this rifle, we don't want her confused in the least about which setting is which. Think tunnel vision. Of course you won't need the training wheels but you get the idea...
ETA - Regarding the design of the 1913 rails, the slotting down the midline is obviously to reduce weight. Regarding the impact on scope accuracy, I see the reasons for the concern but this type of question can only be addressed with specific test data. Let me go read the Samson Evolution thread to make sure I'm not stepping on a land mine here.
Good idea about the gray VLTOR stock. We'll call Eric right away:)
The Noveske Afghan is approx 32 oz while the M4 is approx 25 oz. Why the extra almost half pound?
The answer is we're interested in multi-role capability. The Afghan and related 16" Noveske barrels are well-known for long-range accuracy (meaning beyond 300 yards). The sacrifice is a bit of front-heaviness, admittedly. It's not bad though, but I hate to defend that with just my word. Check with Mike Pannone and soon Rob will weigh-in with his take on that. Mike's speed drill times have all reached record lows with the X7.
Fair enough. I know a lot of people have backed away from Noveske stainless barrels after feeling how heavy they were, but if it's heavy for a reason and suits your purpose then I can't fault that; I'd be tempted to have it fluted myself, but I'm tired of a barrel-heavy rifle. :o (Figuring in 8 oz for a light and H1 or T1 w/ mount, low 7s is still a good deal lighter than my semi-HBAR RRA gun). I'll definitely keep an eye out for Rob's review; the X7 looks pretty damn interesting.
Follow-up question: why the specific muzzle device?
-B
Here's the Samson slotted rail discussion......
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=896568#post896568
It looks like your handguard is the equivalent of a 10" handguard, given that it just covers a midlength gasblock?
RogerinTPA
02-16-11, 20:30
Interesting piece. I'm glad another company has stepped up to make, introduce and put forth the effort to manufacture a quality firearm. That said...prices in most quality ARs (BCM, DD, Colt) are at an all time low within the past 5 years, so the market will be hard to break into, especially competing with premium ARs like Noveske and Knights. The issue is timing, with the economy the way it is, which will be the largest hurdle for them. Maybe if they replace some of the premium features with stock quality parts to get the price in the low 2K or high teens, as a lower cost alternative, while still offering the premium ARs, they may have a shot or at least more exposure.
Rob, I'm sure you will take it to a carbine course or two, to ring it out and get other students opinions. I'm looking forward to hearing about how this AR performs and other shooters opinion on this AR in the future. Maybe a T&E gun for EAG Tactical for a year long endurance test may be the exposure this company needs. IMHO, word of mouth from experienced shooters in these classes will aid in getting this company off the ground as well as an in depth, unbiased article from you of course.:D
One design question:
Looks like the front takedown pin has an A1-style rounded (thinner) taper. I noticed on the Web site that this is so the upper will pivot on the front pin and hold flat against the lower. Why is that a desirable feature?
I always thought the A2 front pivot improved taper was a no-brainer upgrade and would much rather have more meat around the front takedown pin (a la Colt A2s) than the ability for the two pieces to lie flat against one another.
I have to tell you all truthfully, this is the most fun forum thread I've ever been involved with, and even though you've got me sweating bullets with all your water-board questions, it's just GREAT!
The topic of barrels has come up and there's one more thing to say about that. We've been trying to qualify both less expensive and lighter barrels. Sabre Defense stainless barrels in M4 profile for example. How do you like the timing of that? The other choices we looked at all failed but I don't need to get into that. Anyway, it is quite likely we'll come out with a std weight barrel for those who do not want the long range precision flexibility of a heavier barrel.
I read through the entire thread on Samson rails. On the issue of rail rigidity that was left hanging without any real data in that thread, I will bring it up again and show deflection data in the next few days. This was very important in the design of the X7. Regarding the issue of rail mounted devices and the design of center-relieved or slotted rails, there is definitely something to talk about and we probably won't finish tonight. Our rails are intended to meet 1913 not Stanag. To be honest we didn't even care about Stanag because none of the optics mount makers appear to care. Maybe that was short-sighted. Regarding mount makers that use small bumps to index against recoil lugs, the only one I'm aware of is Larue. I'm nervous to state my true feelings about this so all I'll say is we have no Larue mounts at the shop and didn't test the rails with them specifically, EXCEPT that Mike Pannone has continuously used a Larue mount for his EOTech throughout all of his testing and you're starting to hear about that not going so poorly, right? The Samson thread had a statement that ADM and Bobro also relied on the center portion of the recoil lugs. Just not true. Look at this ADM example I just happened to have lying around and I also took a pic of an ACOG mount from ADM that was identical except only one lever:
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/misc/IMG_1122.jpg.
I can show Bobro photos of the same type of cross-bar mount design tomorrow if you need. These types of mounts just don't care at all whether the recoil lugs are continuous.
More on all that later most likely.
Regarding the topic of the price of the X7, true, it's not the best economic times to be introducing a Ferrari as someone else called it. On the other hand, we're only scheduled to make 1200 this year. Are there 1200 people around this country with the money and the inclination for the X7? I'm not worried:)
Regarding the front pivot pin, I may not exactly understand the question, but that's a KNS Precision pin and it locks in place with spring loaded ball-bearings and a plunger mechanism. We give you a special delrin tool that makes it easy to press on the side opposite the plunger while depressing the plunger in order to remove the pin. Note that the pin will lock into place in the retracted position, indexed to a ring inside the pivot lug of the receiver, so that you never need to remove it completely from the receiver and won't lose it.
I'll post more photos of that in the next day or two if Rob doesn't. Time is our friend.
I wonder how much would it cost with a standard lower parts kit and a regular chrome lined noveske barrel, or a chrome bcm barrel. I like the upper, lower and forearm design.
Looks to be an interesting concept.
I can't say I'm too happy about those rail sections, however. They are positioned exactly where I tend to put my support hand. I also never run anything at 3 and 9 that far out.
It is nice to see some quality components being implemented; I also welcome the death of the hinged AR trigger guard.
I wonder how much would it cost with a standard lower parts kit and a regular chrome lined noveske barrel, or a chrome bcm barrel. I like the upper, lower and forearm design.
Easy to calculate, academic to answer. We're only making 1200 this year and they're all going to be the best we know how to make. As we get profitable and grow, then there may come variations and better buys. I don't have a scope with power high enough to see that day yet though:lazy:
Looks to be an interesting concept.
I can't say I'm too happy about those rail sections, however. They are positioned exactly where I tend to put my support hand. I also never run anything at 3 and 9 that far out.
It is nice to see some quality components being implemented; I also welcome the death of the hinged AR trigger guard.
Well there's no way to make a fixed rail system that is perfect for everyone but I'd be surprised if you ended up not finding a good or better grip position for the support hand. We'll have a video up on the website in the next week or so showing all the different grips in use on the X7.
...snip...
It looks like your handguard is the equivalent of a 10" handguard, given that it just covers a midlength gasblock?
10.5"
pleaforwar
02-16-11, 23:02
Like Boss Hogg I got to see one of these up close during a CTT Solutions course a couple of weeks ago and I was impressed. Balance and weight were nice and the rifle shot well throughout the course.
Would you mind explaining the reason you chose that specific muzzle device?
-B
friendlyfireisnt
02-16-11, 23:24
Glad to see that NGA has moved away from the CAA catalog and is now using higher end components. I'm watching the X7 with interest. Can't wait to see how it's received and how it performs.
Only experience I have with NGA is that I currently own a 1911 that was previously owned and worked on by one of the smiths there. If the X7 is done as nicely as that, I am sure they will have a hit on their hands.
Would you mind explaining the reason you chose that specific muzzle device?
-B
First we rejected commercially available devices because we knew how to make our own and we wanted to 1) design the porting to precisely counteract the muzzle rise, 2) to reduce the sound level as much as possible and 3) to look good. Yes we care about style. No not everyone likes what we like.
It's easy to get a good recoil brake. It's hard to get both decent braking and reasonable concussion back to the shooter. We did ok with this but it's still pretty loud compared with not shooting. Depending on where someone is standing off to the side, the concussion can be loud or noticeably softer.
We greatly succeeded at keeping the muzzle and sights on target while firing. The 14.5" barrel device gets a different porting than the 16" barrel device in order to attain equivalent muzzle control.
If the compensator looks fragile to you, it's not. If it looks like a mystical talisman or a 1950's hood ornament, I can categorically deny that it is either.
Like you said a Ferrari...
Nobody buys an Italian sports car so they could go home and throw on their favorite rims and and change the paint scheme.
I am curious as to how you would offer variations on this rifle. Unless I misunderstood you took the BCM BCG and coated it with your own stuff. Couldn't you do that with any part offered by other manufacturers? Another post on this thread dicsussed how he wouldn't run his gear in that set up. If someone is going to throw that kind of cash into it, they better love it, or have the options to make sure they love it.
I didn't buy my rifle to look at it and tell people about it. I bought because I wanted it, and I could add what I wanted and make it my own. My setup, run my way.
Of course, I can't wait until I get off stipend checks and have my salary so I can buy a weapon like that, just so I could try it out.
Interesting. In their description:
Barrels - Barrels are exclusively from Noveske Rifleworks. They are made from extra-hard 416R stainless steel, with NGA stainless steel gas blocks and compensators, ported for mid-length, direct gas impingement operation..
However, Sinister wrote here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=12124
Gunsmiths like 416 or 416R stainless because it is easier to machine and rifle well. Stainless barrels give excellent accuracy, but as the throat and gas port wear away by cracking (as high temperature gases burn out the impurities of stainless particularly at the barrel's throat) when it's time to die the barrels' accuracy falls off quickly (as bits of the "Cracked mud" surface at the throat break off and scratch the bullet's jacket as it makes jump from case mouth to first rifling, and as gas blow-by during the bullet's free-bore jump makes velocity inconsistent).
17-4 Precipitate-hardened stainless is used in aircraft landing gear and surgical tools and lasts a long time due to fewer impurities (and ratio) in the alloy. It's also hell on gunsmith tooling (rifling buttons may last a quarter of the life of those used for 416 or chro-moly barrels, so you can do 5 barrels vice 16-20).
I'd be curious what his take on that barrel and longevity is. Sir?
I'd be curious what his take on that barrel and longevity is. Sir?
You can argue with John Noveske about whether he's using an extra-hard version of 416R or not.
How long will your 17-4 precipitate alloy last? Is that the question? How would I know?
How long will a Noveske 416R barrel last? Is that the question? Damn longer than most others out there. If you are shooting 600 yards to less than 1 MOA it won't last past maybe 3000 rounds. If you are shooting 100 yards to 1 MOA, probably more than 10000 rounds. If you're weekend commando, probably 30000 rounds. All of these are estimates. I simply don't have enough data to answer in terms that I can personally be certain of with adequate statistics to back it up.
The question was posed to Sinister. However, I appreciate you taking the time to answer and the (apparent) tone of that answer conveys sufficient information to me. Good luck.
The question was posed to Sinister. However, I appreciate you taking the time to answer and the (apparent) tone of that answer conveys sufficient information to me. Good luck.
Sorry I jumped on the answer you wanted from Sinister. The (apparent) tone was due to having to guess too much about the question.
Seriously though, if you guys know of a precision barrel with longer life, I'm all ears.
Unless you're 100% committed to the AR's ergonomics the SCAR-16 is superior at the price point.
Unless you're 100% committed to the AR's ergonomics the SCAR-16 is superior at the price point.
You mean the superb trigger, incredibly smooth recoil, and lack of barrel whip is what makes the SCAR superior? Please........
It should be noted that the only carbine of 20+ at Mike Pannone's class that was absolutely, positively down for the count, due to the extractor tearing off the base of the case, was a SCAR-16. I'm not sure what ammo was being used.
Unless you're 100% committed to the AR's ergonomics the SCAR-16 is superior at the price point.
Dear god.
I truly hope that this isn't the route this thread is going to go.
variablebinary
02-17-11, 06:32
Unless you're 100% committed to the AR's ergonomics the SCAR-16 is superior at the price point.
I'm not quite sure about your phrasing, but I agree that the $2000+ segment is very competitive, and it will be tough for any new comer to make a name without stepping up in a huge way.
The question was posed to Sinister. However, I appreciate you taking the time to answer and the (apparent) tone of that answer conveys sufficient information to me. Good luck.
Kelly, I'm not sure I understood your original post either.
Generally speaking, NGA has attempted to make the best parts they can, and source the best parts they can't, or that are more economical to source. The Noveske stainless barrels have had an excellent reputation for years, and guys like Wes Grant have been demonstrating their capability for quite some time now. I think that it's pretty well established that you trade off accuracy potential for longevity, and vice versa.
From what I can tell in some brief internet searches, the 17-4 debate is right up there with Ford/Chevy, Glock/1911, and AR/AK. I found this gem (https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-1049.html), from 2006, in the M4carbine.net archives.
"If you ask a room full of machinist, they will tell you it is the perfect steel for a rifle barrel; but, if you ask a room full of metalurgist, they will tell you it is not
I also found it interesting that some quoted the price as being anywhere from 3x to 5x higher than the 416R barrels.
I want to hate this. I really do. When I first saw the threat I thought "great another overpriced boutique rifle"
However I was wrong. Even with my limited experience compared to other contributors here, I can see the benefit you are offering with this rifle.
All top quality components and a lot of thought into the design. You have done something that only one or two other companies have bothered to do, and I am glad to see you here on the boards.
I do have one minor question however.
Why the A2 grip instead of something like a BG16 or MIAD?
Ok make that two questions.
Why the ARMS BUIS? :fie:
Why the A2 grip instead of something like a BG16 or MIAD?
I think that they've arrived at the same conclusion that many other manufacturers and dealers have, which is that you can't make everyone happy when it comes to grips, so why try? Under this model, the idea is that you have to provide *something* but since it's most likely going to be changed anyway, why not provide the cheapest option.
Personally I might suggest starting with at least the MOE, which is a $10-15 dealer-cost part vs. the likely $3-4 A2 grip.
Why the ARMS BUIS? :fie:
To some degree, same as above, and it's something that NGA and I have discussed. I suggested the Troy folding or DD fixed irons sights, and they have a set of the Troy on their way to me. Somewhat like the grip, many manufacturers find themselves wanting to provide *something* as it's seen as a necessary part to a functioning rifle, albeit less so than the pistol grip. I will say that I'm glad to see a non-integrated solution as I think the fully removable, and locatable, irons sights of the flattop/free-float AR platform is one of its strengths.
I think that they've arrived at the same conclusion that many other manufacturers and dealers have, which is that you can't make everyone happy when it comes to grips, so why try? Under this model, the idea is that you have to provide *something* but since it's most likely going to be changed anyway, why not provide the cheapest option.
Personally I might suggest starting with at least the MOE, which is a $10-15 dealer-cost part vs. the likely $3-4 A2 grip.
The pistol grip is $2 in the BOM. That's what you sacrifice when you change it out. Not only that, we have an extra bonus that will make you smile when you do change it. You will unscrew the original grip while lounging in your favorite chair on your shag rug with the gun topside-down and you will smugly remove that grip, toss it nonchalantly and then mount your new one. "No, no, no, you just lost the safety selector detent spring and pin" someone says. "Not so" you intone. NGA did it right, finally.
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/two_saftey_holes.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/two_selector.jpg
More on the new safety selector after Rob lets us all know whether it works or not.
Am I seeing that right? You use a special spring and selector set at 45 Degree with and secured with a set screw and then also have the option for a standard spring and selector...
I.... I think I love you.
eternal24k
02-17-11, 11:58
first off, I LOVE the gray, I wish gray never went out of style.
But for an AR to be "Next Generation", I feel like it would have to have an ambi-lower, not a billet lower that restricts the use of ergonomic enhancing devices (BAD)
first off, I LOVE the gray, I wish gray never went out of style.
But for an AR to be "Next Generation", I feel like it would have to have an ambi-lower, not a billet lower that restricts the use of ergonomic enhancing devices (BAD)
Do you know that it won't work with a BAD? I haven't tried it yet.
There are certain aspects of this "ambi" hysteria that I like, and certain others that lead me to call it "hysteria". ;)
eternal24k
02-17-11, 12:13
Do you know that it won't work with a BAD? I haven't tried it yet.
There are certain aspects of this "ambi" hysteria that I like, and certain others that lead me to call it "hysteria". ;)
you know Rob, you are right, I do not know. I was just assuming based on the beefy billet, I could end up with egg on my face, which I would be happy to be corrected on.
And I agree that there is a lot of Ambi "hysteria", I think a ambi selector and Gunfighter can resolve most issues as far as ergonomics. But I certainly do enjoy a BAD more than I ever thought I would, and a bolt release is a nice touch.
Unless you're 100% committed to the AR's ergonomics the SCAR-16 is superior at the price point.
Unsupportable, since you couldn't be bothered to explain the details as to how you arrived at that conclusion, presuming you've handled a SCAR-16 and presuming that you've also had the opportunity to compare it to the item being discussed, in numbers and over time, and under the auspices of a well-thought-out test plan.
Dippy, because it's stuff like that that takes an otherwise-informative thread and turns it into a "less filling/tastes great" BS session.
The free iterpretation of the above is essentially "Hey, everybody, I like the SCAR-16!" The title of the thread isn't "What does 10mmAuto like? Find out HERE!" or anything like that, where you could say "Yogurt," or "Cats," or "Hitting the Submit Reply button when I have nothing of substance to add to the discussion."
In the interests of a favorable signal:noise ratio, don't post in this thread again, troll.
you know Rob, you are right, I do not know. I was just assuming based on the beefy billet, I could end up with egg on my face, which I would be happy to be corrected on.
And I agree that there is a lot of Ambi "hysteria", I think a ambi selector and Gunfighter can resolve most issues as far as ergonomics. But I certainly do enjoy a BAD more than I ever thought I would, and a bolt release is a nice touch.
The BAD lever almost fits but rubs against the extra material around the bolt catch set pin. You can bend it into submission but... We're considering whether to 1) modify the BAD lever and offer it, 2) slightly change the lower receiver or 3) do nothing.
I saw this rifle on another forum (ST) and made the same inquiry (Why the high price) Whether or not its worth it, I cant say.
What I can say is that I love the attitude NGA has in answering questions, praising competitors, and detailed explanations to their choices.
If nothing else, having that kind of design environment (One where ideas get considered, not trashed based on preference) is a huge advantage and something that (IMO) will likely help them.
Great job guys, the rifle looks great, though its not an ACR :)
Also, what kind of weight savings are you getting by shaving the centers of the rails? Whats the added machine time / cost.
I (Opinion value of 0) would think that the weight savings (Less than a few ounces I am guessing) isnt worth the perception of the recoil lug arguement and cost.
eternal24k
02-17-11, 14:05
Its interesting some would list the SCAR as more ergonomic, I would argue it is as ergonomic as the AR, whereas the ACR being more.
But anyways.........
The BAD lever almost fits but rubs against the extra material around the bolt catch set pin. You can bend it into submission but... We're considering whether to 1) modify the BAD lever and offer it, 2) slightly change the lower receiver or 3) do nothing.
Thanks for the input. My vote would be for the lower being modified, there are more products, some of them being a one-piece rather than bolt on design. But that is just my opinion.
The BAD lever almost fits but rubs against the extra material around the bolt catch set pin. You can bend it into submission but... We're considering whether to 1) modify the BAD lever and offer it, 2) slightly change the lower receiver or 3) do nothing.
I have several like products and will mess with installing all of them and see how things work out.
eternal24k
02-17-11, 14:27
Might I suggest a Phase 5 EBRv2 + some heat to shape it
That may be an option down the road, but for the time being there's a lot to do with this gun before I get to the point of that level of time investment. Juice ain't worth the squeeze.
I have made a 180 on the BAD and like devices...I originally though they wre pretty neat...at this point I have seen too many problems to continue their use...I don't think that modifying the X7 lower for them would be beneficial.
I have made a 180 on the BAD and like devices...I originally though they wre pretty neat...at this point I have seen too many problems to continue their use...I don't think that modifying the X7 lower for them would be beneficial.
I think it would depend on what that mod entails. Without knowing that I don't think it's possible to make a judgment call on whether or not it would be beneficial.
Haha, I meant the act of making it compatible with the BAD.
I know.
All I'm saying is that if it's only rubbing a hair and it's a simple matter of changing the programming for the billet lower, it's not any major hassle to change it.
Well, this thread is turning into NGA R&D Online. Thank you all for your great points.
Let's talk about the rail. The center relief of just the top rail reduces the weight by .... wait for it .... 1.008 ounces. Ok, perhaps it's pretty lame to state that we did it for the weight, but then again, are any of you ultralight backpackers? The real reason is we like the way they feel and look. Your thumb on the top rail fits right in and helps reduce the effective circumference of the grip.
On the other hand, we've learned a lesson about Bobro mounts that we didn't understand before. Look at this photo:
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/misc/IMG_1134.jpg
The central part of the cross bar is spring loaded and expands against standard recoil lugs such that there is zero backlash of the mount fore and aft even before you clamp. I admit none of us here really understood this until you pushed us to look more carefully.
So... for those of you who really care about the zero backlash feature of Bobro or the indexing of other brands, we've decided to offer an option for non-relieved rails. We'll work this out in the production flow and put the option on the online ordering page in the next few days. Meanwhile, just ask.
All of us here at NGA still plan on using the relieved rails though:)
I am using a LaRue LT-110 and the "indexing bar" is wide enough to contact the relieved sections of the rail. Barely...but enough. I think I'd still prefer a full rail...
.
I'd think a next generation AR would have some kind of built-in BAD.
It just doesn't make ergonomic sense to have to switch hands to hold the bolt open.
It is just a matter of imagination.
But maybe it's just me...
.
I know.
All I'm saying is that if it's only rubbing a hair and it's a simple matter of changing the programming for the billet lower, it's not any major hassle to change it.
That's probably what we'll do :bad: (biting tongue, arg)
65 replies thus far and yet a single real question or comment regarding the accuracy/precision of these new rifles......:confused:
First off, rfscheer welcome to the board and it's great to have you here. This rifle really does have some really great things going on for it. So many people these days are so focused on the controls, and handling aspects of their AR that they to some degree forget about the accuracy and reliability of it. Control wise this new rifle is not gonna win any awards in my book, but I shoot mostly lefty. Where this rifle should merit some respect and attention is in the accuracy dept.
This gun features....
Noveske Afghan barrel
Rail that incorporates a continous top rail and overall
appears to be very soundly designed with the design aim being more towards monolithic than a traditional 2piece upper rec./rail.
Geissele SSA 2stage trigger
Those three items listed above will be paramount to this particular rifle's accuracy which I forecast to be very accurate.
Personally I feel this gun should be marketed specifically towards precision applications where emphasis is placed on it's overall LW package for precision applications.
Nothing like free R&D!
Great attitudes though! Awesome to see responsive companies.
Bulldog1967
02-17-11, 15:27
Wow that looks great!
.
I'd think a next generation AR would have some kind of built-in BAD.
It just doesn't make ergonomic sense to have to switch hands to hold the bolt open.
It is just a matter of imagination.
But maybe it's just me...
.
Let's hope you really don't mean to hold the bolt open with the BAD lever, but just to provide an ambi button to push that is well out of the trigger area.
We considered ambi-everything carefully and rejected it all for a number of reasons, the main one being incompatibility with what everyone else is training with out there. Until there's a standard full-ambi that most people are using, little ol' us are going to stick with the current std MOA.
A good example of what imagination says is a good idea not really being realistic is the ambi mag release, such as those clever units that replace the std mag catch subassembly and give you something to push on the left side. The most common of such designs was something we tested for quite awhile. Mike Pannone's late prototype still had one until a week or two ago for example. The problem was inadvertent mag releases when the button is tripped by a spare Glock magazine on your belt when the rifle swings into it.
If NGA entered a contestant in the next DOD beauty contest for replacing all service rifles, we'd definitely advocate a complete rethinking of the controls but it's not our place to urge you to go out on a limb too far.
65 replies thus far and yet a single real question or comment regarding the accuracy/precision of these new rifles......:confused:
...snip...
This gun features....
Noveske Afghan barrel
Rail that incorporates a continous top rail and overall
appears to be very soundly designed with the design aim being more towards monolithic than a traditional 2piece upper rec./rail.
Geissele SSA 2stage trigger
Those three items listed above will be paramount to this particular rifle's accuracy which I forecast to be very accurate.
Personally I feel this gun should be marketed specifically towards precision applications where emphasis is placed on it's overall LW package for precision applications.
A+ ditto ditto ditto
Let's just hope that Rob can shoot the thing:)
Let's just hope that Rob can shoot the thing:)
Probably not as well as it deserves to be. :(
Let's hope you really don't mean to hold the bolt open with the BAD lever, but just to provide an ambi button to push that is well out of the trigger area.
We considered ambi-everything carefully and rejected it all for a number of reasons, the main one being incompatibility with what everyone else is training with out there. Until there's a standard full-ambi that most people are using, little ol' us are going to stick with the current std MOA.
A good example of what imagination says is a good idea not really being realistic is the ambi mag release, such as those clever units that replace the std mag catch subassembly and give you something to push on the left side. The most common of such designs was something we tested for quite awhile. Mike Pannone's late prototype still had one until a week or two ago for example. The problem was inadvertent mag releases when the button is tripped by a spare Glock magazine on your belt when the rifle swings into it.
If NGA entered a contestant in the next DOD beauty contest for replacing all service rifles, we'd definitely advocate a complete rethinking of the controls but it's not our place to urge you to go out on a limb too far.
=======================================
I was meaning a "mechanism" that could ride piggyback internally and not disturb the current MOA, so people that don't want to use the BAD do not have to. The main reason I like the BAD is to ease holding the bolt open function, releasing the bolt is a plus but no the main feature I like.
I like the MP BAD, use it and don't have problems with it but I am not HSLD. I can see how the BAD is vulnerable to getting snagged, bent, pulled off, could break the BC, etc. I would like to see some kind of internally linked mechanism that would allow bolt release and hold open with the firing hand, yet work in conjunction with the existing Bolt Catch.
That’s where the imagination comes in…
.
@rfscheer
You guys should consider selling your components such as the lowers, the uppers, handguard, mag release, etc. as well as the whole rifle. I like some of those features, but I don't want to buy a whole new rifle just to get some of those features. just some food for thought.
That way even if you are in a niche market with the X7 platform, you can still sell other components and possibly increase your profit margin.
You mean the superb trigger, incredibly smooth recoil, and lack of barrel whip is what makes the SCAR superior? Please........
I'm assuming you're employing your sarcasm in its lowest form. Whether or not there is appreciable barrel whip, I've never run slow motion cam on it, it groups as well as any AR I've ever shot. Maybe if you shoot guns with featherweight triggers all the time its trigger pull being more comparable to a stock M16 will be bother you. I don't find the recoil impulse to be sharper.
It should be noted that the only carbine of 20+ at Mike Pannone's class that was absolutely, positively down for the count, due to the extractor tearing off the base of the case, was a SCAR-16. I'm not sure what ammo was being used.
This doesn't sound like a very well developed opinion to me. Did he have it on the right gas setting? One incident does not a trend make.
In any case, I wasn't saying "ZOMG ARS ARE TOAST", just that I think at this price point there's better options than this rifle (although it does look very nice). So try not to sound so butthurt.
Unless you're 100% committed to the AR's ergonomics the SCAR-16 is superior at the price point.
There are people posting in this thread with both X7 and SCAR-16 experience...you are not one of them.
There are people posting in this thread with both X7 and SCAR-16 experience...you are not one of them.
http://myaimistruth.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/spit-take.jpg
BufordTJustice
02-18-11, 00:11
http://myaimistruth.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/spit-take.jpg
Not only am I ROFLMAO right now, but +1 as well to Andrew.
Littlelebowski
02-18-11, 05:38
10mmauto, this thread is NOT about the SCAR. If you like yours so much, find a thread to blather on about it in or go the **** away.
Back on topic.
I didn't want to abuse Mike Pannone's personal X7, but it was an incredibly smooth recoil and the thing that struck me was the lack of muzzle rise. It's a funky looking muzzle device, but it works beautifully on that rifle.
I haven't shot a BattleComp or Triple Tap so I'm not able to offer a direct comparison.
The other thing is that Mike didn't do the initial voodoo/Black Magic break in process. I didn't get a picture of the target but you could see the cold bore shot. The remaining 4 rounds were sub MOA at 100 yards with an EOTech.
10mm- fortunately for the shooter that had the SCAR, he had 2 others standing by. The dirt test that we did on a bone dry BCM 14.5" carbine gas upper shows that dirt/sand don't cause an AR to soil the bed like all too many claim. Like Larry Vickers says, ARs are more reliable than people give them credit for, and AKs are more accurate than people give them credit for.
I am going to - respectfully - play a devil's advocate in regards to barrel profile choice. That video of Mr. Pannone shooting it very fast doesn't necessarily convince me of anything other than his skills. Heavier profile barrel will flip less in recoil and should be easier to keep on target during short, fast timed drills. Dragging it around all day long is another thing.
With that, a question to NGA: did you find that lighter, say, medium, or even lightweight, Noveske barrels didn't satisfy your accuracy reqs at longer distances?
10mmauto, this thread is NOT about the SCAR. If you like yours so much, find a thread to blather on about it in or go the **** away.
You should reread my post before you cry about it. All I said was I felt like at this price point I thought a SCAR was a better option. After that one or two people got exceptionally butthurt over it because apparently they thought that was some kind of anti-AR trolling. Not the case at all. Thanks.
I am going to - respectfully - play a devil's advocate in regards to barrel profile choice. That video of Mr. Pannone shooting it very fast doesn't necessarily convince me of anything other than his skills. Heavier profile barrel will flip less in recoil and should be easier to keep on target during short, fast timed drills. Dragging it around all day long is another thing.
With that, a question to NGA: did you find that lighter, say, medium, or even lightweight, Noveske barrels didn't satisfy your accuracy reqs at longer distances?
Let's answer your question first and then discuss the reasoning and background for the barrel choice.
We have not adequately tested long range accuracy from lighter weight barrels. There's only so much time on this Earth. This is something we WILL be doing much more of in the next few years though because your point is correct, that we need to optimize the trade off of marksmanship vs. portability.
Regarding muzzle flip and staying on target, let's make sure we're on the same page here. If you hung bar bells on your gun it would stray less off target than a lightweight setup, as long as you could accurately hold it on target in the first place, which is doubtful. So, there's a bit of that in the heavier barrel I guess. But it's still a relatively light setup and muzzle control from the compensator is more important than weight by far. That's what we've concentrated on with the X7, ie setting the ports on the compensator such that the "retro-rockets" oppose the natural rise and wander of the muzzle as perfectly as possible.
Regarding barrel WHIP, which is the spaghetti noodle vibration of the barrel set in motion by the retro rocket force, it's a lot worse with light profiles but it isn't clear yet how much this affects anything practical. Look at some of Andrew's slow-mo videos for an idea of how amazing barrel whip can be. Keep in mind that the barrel doesn't start whipsawing until the bullet clears the compensator ports, so it's unlikely there will be much affect on the bullet's trajectory. Also note that the whip vibration dampens to nil in a few milliseconds, a much shorter time frame than your action cycling or your eye will care about. All of that last paragraph was just to make sure that nobody thinks barrel whip has anything to do with sights on target. Sorry to digress....
One thing that we have been doing is inspecting various barrels with video borescope and, YIKES, you learn real fast much of the reason why a Noveske stainless barrel shoots better than a Brand X. There is a gigantic difference in rifling and lapping quality. I'm not saying that Noveske does anything super magic there, just that these are much closer to champion benchrest quality barrels than the norm.
Keep in mind that we've just introduced the X7 and it's not a high volume product. 1200 this year. It's not intended to satisfy everyone for every purpose. It's not intended to "hit the sweetspot of the market" so to speak. The current version with the Afghan barrel profile obviously emphasizes marksmanship along with portability. It's not the best of either, but is an optimization. It might be a good choice for rural SWAT snipers. Perhaps military sniper teams, as the spotter's main weapon. You tell me. But I agree it would not be the mainstream choice for army infantry. It's for those who want to make every shot count, even if they are leaving the muzzle at 5 per second, but usually more like 1 per minute.
You should reread my post
Splendid advice!
Re-read mine and try to come up with some lame argument that it was somehow unclear.
rfscheer - good answer, best of luck with your endeavor.
I think and I hope, that, as your test those barrels out, you find that lighter profiles will meet criteria you've set for this rifle. My 4 year - 2500 rounds old lightweight Noveske bbl prints out 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with non-match ammo; admittedly, I don't shoot longer distances.
Anyway, I certainly hope you find a 1200 unit niche for your rifles so we can hear more end-user reports on them. Again, best of luck!
As we continue to endure the interruptions from the peanut gallery, if I may get away with suggesting, let's remind ourselves that we're talking about the X7 and trying to get to know it better. NGA does not claim it is the best solution for our troubled world. It cannot cure migraines or purify water. It's no threat to the M4 or M16 or SCAR. Most of all it is not the best. There is no such thing as best. Mainly it's gray. Let's just figure out if it does it's job well, ok?
The way I see it...I could start a thread for every single major component on a future hand built or pieced AR, ultimately have 10-15 threads...
Who makes the best bcg.....
Who makes the best trigger.....
Who makes the most accurate SS 14.5-16" barrel.....
Who makes the best CH.....
Who makes the best stock....
What is the best buffer to go with....
So now answer those threads to yourself....remember and return to front page op reply where it lists the X7's specs and compare. Some folks I'm sure will eat crow when their picks were the same as the specs.
I have slightly different tastes and needs than perhaps what the N7 could offer me like for example I like the Super Dynamic GA triggers vs. the X7's SSA. I like Sopmod and UBR's vs. Vltor Imod on the X7. I love Rock barrels vs. Noveske barrels. Based on that it's clear that while this gun's not for me....it's built to the SAME quality of my totally hand picked build, just with a comparable yet different model or brand. Again, nobody can build a rifle that even comes close to appealing to everyone's needs. MFG'rs understand this fact and deal with accordingly by ultimately picking a direction to focus on, thereby trying to build a rifle that does a great job at something or a few things vs. a rifle suppose to be super nifty lightweight, high speed low drag, blah, blah, that fails at doing any one thing right. Cough..scar
10mmAuto Online
Banned
This bears repeating.
http://myaimistruth.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/spit-take.jpg
...snip snip...
I have slightly different tastes and needs than perhaps what the N7 could offer me like for example I like the Super Dynamic GA triggers vs. the X7's SSA. I like Sopmod and UBR's vs. Vltor Imod on the X7. I love Rock barrels vs. Noveske barrels. Based on that it's clear that while this gun's not for me....it's built to the SAME quality of my totally hand picked build, just with a comparable yet different model or brand. Again, nobody can build a rifle that even comes close to appealing to everyone's needs. MFG'rs understand this fact and deal with accordingly by ultimately picking a direction to focus on, thereby trying to build a rifle that does a great job at something or a few things vs. a rifle suppose to be super nifty lightweight, high speed low drag, blah, blah, that fails at doing any one thing right. Cough..scar
This feedback/discussion is useful to me. BTW you're the 2nd person who's called it an N7 instead of X7. Maybe that's the natural name and we never figured it out. X7 is only our R&D name for the thing and we were too unimaginative to come up with anything better.
All of the Geissele triggers are available for the X7 if I didn't make it clear. The SSA and S3G are what we expect to be most common. Snipers are likely to go with more personal selections though.
We've already been beaten into submission and are standing by ready to configure any quality pistol grip and buttstock, iron sights, optics, etc. Just call.
We're not really wanting to mount optional barrels but if it fits in with our interests in accuracy, lifetime, etc we might do it for you.
I believe that one thing being overlooked in this thread is the flaring of the mag well. It curves inward vs being a geometric angle like a "flared" Daniel Defense or JP.
It might shave 0.1 or 0.2 seconds off your reload time but for some that really matters.
Having shot it, that is the most interesting feature of this rifle.
One of the problems I found with a SunDevil billet Upper/Lower combination is that I could mount the BAD or a redi-mag. Has NGA test fit some of the common aftermarket add-ons?
I believe that one thing being overlooked in this thread is the flaring of the mag well. It curves inward vs being a geometric angle like a "flared" Daniel Defense or JP.
It might shave 0.1 or 0.2 seconds off your reload time but for some that really matters.
Having shot it, that is the most interesting feature of this rifle.
This is probably one of the biggest things they got right, and something I think they've done better than anyone else.
It is not "flared" on the outside but instead offers a consistent profile. on the inside, it is grooved to provide a kind of a large sand cut which reduces friction with the magazine and thereby makes it easier to eject the empty one and easier to insert the fresh one. I have run several dryfire speed reloads at home and the thing woks very, very well. We will see how it handles more dynamic situations on Tuesday.
One of the problems I found with a SunDevil billet Upper/Lower combination is that I could mount the BAD or a redi-mag. Has NGA test fit some of the common aftermarket add-ons?
One of the community benefits to this thread is that, due to popular demand, we've already made an engineering mod to the lower to be compatible with the BAD lever. I'll show photos next Monday or Tuesday and it will be in production next week.
Using that device is not something we recommend but the fix is too easy to justify not doing it.
The Redi-Mag is not compatible. Sorry. Well, actually, I'm not sorry but you know what I mean. Without debating the alternative ways of doubling mag capacity and saving mag changes (please!), the X7 is meant to shoot like Mike Pannone shoots is the best way I can say it. Sideways. Upside down. Clearance, clean features and simplicity matter when you need as much flexibility as possible.
Honestly, no, we haven't done a lot of compatibility testing for what I call doodads. We know that rail mounted devices are all compatible and work well, even if this thread has already shown us a new thing or two there.
The Redimag is something I'm fond of, but lack of compatibility with it is not a game-ender for me by any stretch.
I'm glad to hear that the BAD will be able to work. I have grown very accustomed to using them.
Since Boss Hogg and Rob brought up the subject of the magazine related performance of the X7, it seemed appropriate to show some pics of the LR to give you some context.
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/Two_Recievers.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/Two_Recievers_Top.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/Magazine.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/DownTheWell.jpg
The Redimag is something I'm fond of, but lack of compatibility with it is not a game-ender for me by any stretch.
I'm glad to hear that the BAD will be able to work. I have grown very accustomed to using them.
I'm 50/50 on the Redi-Mag depending on when you ask me. Nowadays I spend a lot of time working with the Springer Precision PMag dual bases. But the various bolt assists out there are a big deal, as I too have grown quite fond of them (the Phase 5 EBRv2 especially).
...damn
I have a rapidly growing appeal for this rifle, and am saddened that my bank account is not following the same exponential curve.
That is a very well thought out lower.
... the various bolt assists out there are a big deal, as I too have grown quite fond of them (the Phase 5 EBRv2 especially).
Just visited the Phase 5 site and looked at the EBRv2 for the first time. Ding me if you will for ignorance:agree: In many ways that's how I would have designed this doodad. But then again I wouldn't have designed it most likely since I wouldn't use it. I'm not against the ambi bolt release function but I am against mounting needless obstructions on a weapon that will spend time on a sling/vest and crawling through the brush. The painful part is that it's so easy to make ambi buttons for all of this that are integrated into the receiver and not attached by bailing wire and chewing gum.
Not sure whether the EBRv2 will fit in the new BAD lever compliant receiver. Probably.
The recent pics of the lower for comparison were helpful. Thank you.
Looking forward to Robs review. I don't think I am the right market for your rifle, but I enjoy watching and learning about improvements and the direction people are taking the platform. Best wishes for your success.
Please put up a filter as this may come across as more harsh than I mean it to:
This seems very similar to what Wilson Combat is doing (and is generally very poorly received, at least on this site) for. I applaud the essence of what NGA is trying to do here: Build a top-notch AR that the consumer can purchase from one single source. I've got some entrepreneurial bones in my body that cry out every now and again, so I feel the vibe. But, what is this more than a very high-priced franken-gun with the builder's logo slapped on the side of the lower? Now, that being said, the lower adds some interesting design features (i.e. magwell) that bear consideration. However, I just don't see the value in this platform. Why should a customer purchase your rifle instead of a factory Noveske, or a custom build from MSTN, G&R, ETC? If you're just trying be another player in the game, so be it. I'm just trying to think from a business perspective what your core competency is that sets you apart from the competition. Especially since you're using their parts. Best wishes, and again, this probably sounds harsher than I mean it.
Please put up a filter as this may come across as more harsh than I mean it to:
This seems very similar to what Wilson Combat is doing (and is generally very poorly received, at least on this site) for. I applaud the essence of what NGA is trying to do here: Build a top-notch AR that the consumer can purchase from one single source. I've got some entrepreneurial bones in my body that cry out every now and again, so I feel the vibe. But, what is this more than a very high-priced franken-gun with the builder's logo slapped on the side of the lower? Now, that being said, the lower adds some interesting design features (i.e. magwell) that bear consideration. However, I just don't see the value in this platform. Why should a customer purchase your rifle instead of a factory Noveske, or a custom build from MSTN, G&R, ETC? If you're just trying be another player in the game, so be it. I'm just trying to think from a business perspective what your core competency is that sets you apart from the competition. Especially since you're using their parts. Best wishes, and again, this probably sounds harsher than I mean it.
=======================================
I don't think NGA is a "johnny come lately" if that is what your suggesting.
When I bought a Noveske over a year ago, I asked the rep at Noveske why should I buy their gun. He gave me several examples of why Noveske produced a good gun but one of the reasons he gave me was, "We sell barrels to high-end gun makers like Next Generation." I think he was proud to be associated with NGA.
To me, if Noveske calls you "high-end" that is a pretty good compliment.
In subsequent conversations with Noveske, I felt Noveske had a "kindred spirit" type relationship with NGA and that NGA was not out to just produce "a very high-priced franken-gun with the builder's logo slapped on the side."
But maybe it's just me...
.
Please put up a filter as this may come across as more harsh than I mean it to:
This seems very similar to what Wilson Combat is doing (and is generally very poorly received, at least on this site) for. I applaud the essence of what NGA is trying to do here: Build a top-notch AR that the consumer can purchase from one single source. I've got some entrepreneurial bones in my body that cry out every now and again, so I feel the vibe. But, what is this more than a very high-priced franken-gun with the builder's logo slapped on the side of the lower? Now, that being said, the lower adds some interesting design features (i.e. magwell) that bear consideration. However, I just don't see the value in this platform. Why should a customer purchase your rifle instead of a factory Noveske, or a custom build from MSTN, G&R, ETC? If you're just trying be another player in the game, so be it. I'm just trying to think from a business perspective what your core competency is that sets you apart from the competition. Especially since you're using their parts. Best wishes, and again, this probably sounds harsher than I mean it.
Filter set. No problem.
Core competencies?
We see an industry that is moribund in it's ability or willingness to innovate meaningfully. Hence, we are still shooting 1950's technology but using 21st century electronics to discuss it all.
We have continuously improved ceramic coatings over the past 8 years. Hence, very good looks, corrosion resistance, easy cleaning and, oh yeah, almost forgot about reliability. I'm sure we'll be discussing that later. Please wait until Rob starts his testing.
We've been around the block a few times regarding starting and running businesses (successfully). I, for one, came out of retirement to do this gig because it's fun and needs doing.
We may not know as much about the AR as the borg that is m4c, but after plugging in the combined mentality and experience of this community and some other great people we are lucky to count as friends, we might now have some kind of critical mass ability to define and build an AR that meets expectations and exceeds even in some ways. Maybe not.
We intend to innovate major. The X7 is a credibility building project. We have plans and definition for uniquely integrated lights/lasers/optics for example. Also plans for a major innovation in our next rifle project involving barrel, action and chassis. Not an AR at all. Don't let me forget to mention the game-changing barrel innovation that we plan for next year.
I know. Dreamers. Idealists. Nerds. Oh, dang, I forgot to answer your question. Probably our biggest asset is that we care a lot about contributing something to this world of firearms and our country and we don't care much what lawyers and market research MBA's tell us to do.
It appears you have gone to great lengths to minimize felt recoil and muzzle rise with the optimized gas port and A5 buffer system/action spring. To that end, did you give any consideration to any of the longer gas systems (i.e. KAC’s SR-15 intermediate length or what MSTN seems to have come up with, which I believe is .4” longer than KAC’s intermediate)? If so, why were they ruled out?
It appears you have gone to great lengths to minimize felt recoil and muzzle rise with the optimized gas port and A5 buffer system/action spring. To that end, did you give any consideration to any of the longer gas systems (i.e. KAC’s SR-15 intermediate length or what MSTN seems to have come up with, which I believe is .4” longer than KAC’s intermediate)? If so, why were they ruled out?
To be honest, the tuning we have done on the X7 was not that big a deal. Nathan has a lot of experience doing this and we didn't actually feel that the X7 needed to be the softest shooter on the planet. I'd venture to brag that most serious AR shooters have never encountered as little muzzle movement as on the X7 but certainly more (or less actually) can be achieved.
We are considering a 3-gun rifle design that might extend the gas system a bit, as well as the buffer system. This may even flirt with requiring restrictive load selection in order to cycle reliably with a shorter barrel than most would use. Not the kind of thing we've ever been able to stomach before, but who knows, maybe...
The VLTOR M16A5 will be evaluated soon as well. No promises.
We do like the idea of a super-soft-shooting 5.56 and I'd expect more development along those lines.
SeriousStudent
02-18-11, 17:58
rfscheer, thank you for joining us here, and your participation in the discussion.
I'm sending a link to this thread to a friend at work. He sounds like a good client for you. He's got a good income stream, and not a huge amount of idle time. He lives by the "buy once, cry once" creed. He's a smart guy, and wants to do things right the first time.
Several years ago, when he bought his first complete AR, he purchased a DD carbine. He's looking for a second carbine now.
I definitely wish you the best of luck with your company, and your products.
rfscheer, thank you for joining us here, and your participation in the discussion.
I'm sending a link to this thread to a friend at work. He sounds like a good client for you. He's got a good income stream, and not a huge amount of idle time. He lives buy the "buy once, cry once" creed. He's a smart guy, and wants to do things right the first time.
Several years ago, when he bought his first complete AR, he purchased a DD carbine. He's looking for a second carbine now.
I definitely wish you the best of luck with your company, and your products.
I make it a policy never to blush, but compliments are welcome and thanks!
Now that you bring it up, you have put your finger on what is probably THE most applicable demographic, if you will, for the X7. This is a busy world, especially for successful people. They might want to play weekend commando as much as anyone here, but just don't have the time you and I (remember I'm retired) might have. Or they might believe that proficiency with the AR is a serious requirement that they need to tick off of their New Year's Goals but with minimum outlay of training time.
Think about it. The X7 is simple. No doodads. It doesn't take crazy maintenance and can actually be neglected without usually causing a problem. (Don't get started.) It is easy to shoot. Low recoil, not too heavy, all set up and ready to go. Incredibly easy trigger, meaning trigger finesse isn't as demanding as with Rob's military triggers (why does he do that?). So, along with the serious applications mentioned earlier, probably most of our customers will be the well-heeled, short-of-time, want the most results for the least effort types.
Maybe we can mention female shooters one of these days. A certain blogger of that persuasion will take delivery in the next few weeks on her porch and hopefully she'll fill us in on that viewpoint.
SeriousStudent
02-18-11, 19:00
You are most welcome.
This individual lives in a predominantly rural neighborhood, with a very nice house on 12 acres. A few years ago there was a home invasion down the road from him, and a friend of his was almost murdered. :(
So we had a few quiet discussions about alarms, cameras, "a great big fecking dog", and firearms. He has also made it to two training classes, and his carbine served him well.
So you did nail it with the comment about checking off a goal. He's good at what he does, but very busy. He lurks here, and might actually pop into the thread or email you folks.
And since he's my boss's boss's boss, I try and avoid wasting his time. ;) I think your equipment would be a good fit.
Again, best of luck to you. Your work inspires hope and confidence.
I'll run it like this tonight but with a padded VCAS an X300 on the top rail in front of the sight.
eta, massive photo removed, be right back.
"reinventing the wheel" says the range office
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/photo-20-4.jpg
Nice pic Rob, this gun honestly has quality written all over it. I'm all but convinced I understand the Designer's vision for this rifle, and I believe it's existance has sound merit for being introduced into the market. Only problem I see is that so many folks might not ever look to tap the potential built in accuracy/precision of it...which just so happens to be a significant driving force for the higher cost of this rifle. It's not cheap to build repeatable, hard use, high precision ARs.
This rifle has plenty of proprietary design into it, yet maintains a certain level of known high quality, all ready easily established kit to form what seems to be a really nice product.
eta... the non existent purchase on the selector is something that concerns me to a minor degree. No worries in nice weather, however get a little mud, sleet, rain, etc. and things could get interesting. I know of some folks who have thoroughly investigated this particular issue and they tell me that purchase should be present. Small thing though.
Find ManBearPig!
02-22-11, 19:21
I have a question for rfscheer. On earlier models, you used an ARMS rail. I'd like to know what made you change it to your current one. Was it low quality? Wasn't compatible with the rifle? Or, I suspect, you wanted to make your own?
Either way, I'm interested to here your reason. Manly just out of curiosity. Thanks in advance.
I have a question for rfscheer. On earlier models, you used an ARMS rail. I'd like to know what made you change it to your current one. Was it low quality? Wasn't compatible with the rifle? Or, I suspect, you wanted to make your own?
Either way, I'm interested to here your reason. Manly just out of curiosity. Thanks in advance.
We used an ARMS SIR on the MP168, our last model because it was very rigid and produced the best results for precision shooting of all the selections we had available at the time. There are still people out there who insist on that forend rather than the new X7 because they either prefer a heavier rifle, have big hands or it's what they know.
Overall it was made well and has had few field problems. There were a couple of spring-loaded fasteners that broke but that's all I recall off the top of my head.
On the other hand, it really wasn't all that popular. You know of what I speak.
For the X7, we wanted to improve the MP168 but not change the basic philosophy which is to provide a precision rifle that comes in a carbine format. We wanted to drop weight, improve function and cut the cost to mfg. All of those things were accomplished by designing and making our own forend out of 7075 T6 billet, well 2 billets to be more specific. The new forend does not suffer in the rigidity or ergo depts but I'll wait for Rob's review there.
vicious_cb
02-22-11, 19:51
I was wondering how your monolithic upper compares to the vltor mur in terms of weight? What kind of attachment method do use for the forend?
Find ManBearPig!
02-22-11, 20:20
We used an ARMS SIR on the MP168, our last model because it was very rigid and produced the best results for precision shooting of all the selections we had available at the time. There are still people out there who insist on that forend rather than the new X7 because they either prefer a heavier rifle, have big hands or it's what they know.
Overall it was made well and has had few field problems. There were a couple of spring-loaded fasteners that broke but that's all I recall off the top of my head.
On the other hand, it really wasn't all that popular. You know of what I speak.
For the X7, we wanted to improve the MP168 but not change the basic philosophy which is to provide a precision rifle that comes in a carbine format. We wanted to drop weight, improve function and cut the cost to mfg. All of those things were accomplished by designing and making our own forend out of 7075 T6 billet, well 2 billets to be more specific. The new forend does not suffer in the rigidity or ergo depts but I'll wait for Rob's review there.
All right, thanks. I'm glad to see gun makers mingling with gun users. It benefits us all. Best of luck, your guys vision is something the firearms industry needs, and I wish you the best of luck.
I was wondering how your monolithic upper compares to the vltor mur in terms of weight? What kind of attachment method do use for the forend?
We may be getting some terminology mixed up here so let's just make sure we don't think the X7 upper and forend are monolithic. Regarding the weight comparison with the MUR, they are very similar, but I don't have the numbers in front of me here at home. Both are hammer forged, but the MUR is an updated style while ours is a traditional unit made by Nordic.
The forend is made from 2 billets, top and bottom. The inside of the pumpkins is carved out and then the two pieces are bolted together and all of the remaining 4-axis machining is done on the top + bottom assembly.
A precision barrel nut (in the form of a castle nut) is made. The forend clamps to that using 4 10-32 Torx screws in the back and 2 up front. The rail is indexed to pre-machined shoulders on the front of the upper. The resulting match is within .003" between upper flat top rail and the forend top rail. There are 2 set screws on the bottom of the forend rear that also further trap the forend on the barrel nut. The forend cannot rotate and it locks the barrel nut from rotating.
I don't have any photos of how it mounts yet but soon.
vicious_cb
02-22-11, 21:08
We may be getting some terminology mixed up here so let's just make sure we don't think the X7 upper and forend are monolithic. Regarding the weight comparison with the MUR, they are very similar, but I don't have the numbers in front of me here at home. Both are hammer forged, but the MUR is an updated style while ours is a traditional unit made by Nordic.
The forend is made from 2 billets, top and bottom. The inside of the pumpkins is carved out and then the two pieces are bolted together and all of the remaining 4-axis machining is done on the top + bottom assembly.
A precision barrel nut (in the form of a castle nut) is made. The forend clamps to that using 4 10-32 Torx screws in the back and 2 up front. The rail is indexed to pre-machined shoulders on the front of the upper. The resulting match is within .003" between upper flat top rail and the forend top rail. There are 2 set screws on the bottom of the forend rear that also further trap the forend on the barrel nut. The forend cannot rotate and it locks the barrel nut from rotating.
I don't have any photos of how it mounts yet but soon.
Thanks for the info. I thought it was a monolithic upper from the pictures but I was fooled by excellent fit between the upper and forend!
pastryslayer
02-23-11, 03:36
It's late and I don't have the time or energy for a long diatribe on Next Gen weapons, so I'll just say this: I own an MP168, the X7's dad. It is far more accurate than I am, probably the most accurate AR I've ever handled. The ceramic coating is the best part, in terms of easy cleaning (with Windex, believe it or not), almost no lube usage (a couple drops on the bolt) and smooth operation. You can't really understand it until you handle it. It is because of this that you can't really compare apples to apples with anything you can build, because you can't get the ceramics anywhere else.
There is almost no muzzle movement when fired, and follow-up shots are fast and easy. On my last qualification (LE) I shot 50/50, and my personal previous best was 45/50. Nothing changed except the rifle, not the ammo, the table of fire, or how much I practiced.
Don't think of it in terms of parts....we all like to tinker, but it really needs to be thought of as a closed system weapon platform. Optics, stock, sling and grip are really the only things you'll want to mess with.
ETA: This is my first post here, I followed the blog link from the NGA website. Just thought I'd throw in my $.02 since there aren't many NGA owners floating around.
I reviewed the MP168 on Arfcom under the same screen name. You can check it out if you want details, including warranty work and customer service aspects (Spoiler: Both were great). Oh, and for the naturally suspicious, I have no connection to NGA other than as a customer. My uncle knows the owner, but I've yet to meet anyone there myself other than through the aforementioned customer service provided by phone and mail.
Peace.
Have to check my counts against my range bag, but here's what I'm up to.
28 rounds at 25 yards
28 rounds at 50 yards
28 rounds at 100 yards
36 rounds stage 1 110223 SFDCC
12 rounds stage 2 110223 SFDCC
12 rounds stage 3 110223 SFDCC
12 rounds stage 4 110223 SFDCC
156 rounds total. zero stoppages. Light lube added to carrier rails and bolt prior to shooting, as well as one wet patch and one dry run down the barrel (first time I had patched a barrel in probably 2+ years).
ColdDeadHands
02-23-11, 10:31
I'm thinking the Larue OBR 5.56 would be closest to this rifle and a side by side comparison would be nice.
I'm thinking the Larue OBR 5.56
You may be right. However there are certain things that "texas spec" isn't going to have relative to this gun. "texas spec" is lacking:
ceramic coating
beveled mag well
relief-cut magwell
captured safety spring & detent
high-cut grip
redesigned safety
redesigned mag release
improved bolt-catch attachment
full HPT/MPI bolt
redesigned muzzle brake/flash-hider
Gunfighter charging handle
I'm sure there's more, but you get the point.
From a performance perspective I'm sure someone will eventually do a gnat's balls shooting comparison at distance with a sample of one each, and all of 12 people in the known universe will read it, and all of three will care, and all of one will actually act based on the information. :eek:
ColdDeadHands
02-23-11, 11:41
You may be right. However there are certain things that "texas spec" isn't going to have relative to this gun. "texas spec" is lacking:
ceramic coating
beveled mag well
relief-cut magwell
captured safety spring & detent
high-cut grip
redesigned safety
redesigned mag release
improved bolt-catch attachment
full HPT/MPI bolt
redesigned muzzle brake/flash-hider
Gunfighter charging handle
I'm sure there's more, but you get the point.
From a performance perspective I'm sure someone will eventually do a gnat's balls shooting comparison at distance with a sample of one each, and all of 12 people in the known universe will read it, and all of three will care, and all of one will actually act based on the information. :eek:
Are you sure about the BCG? This is from Larue's website;
Assembled to TexasSpecTM our Bolt Carrier Groups use the same mil-spec hardware used military-wide. Additionally, LT assembly enhancements greatly minimize bolt-related failures. Mil-spec gas-key contact areas are precision surface-ground flat for zero gas leakage and then max-staked to eliminate all chances of vibration-induced failures.
The BCG of the OBR is also hard chromed. And as for the other points;
ceramic coating Is this a major benefit?
beveled mag well Larue's Mag wells are beveled
relief-cut magwell Is this a major benefit?
captured safety spring & detent Is this a major benefit?
high-cut grip Is this a major benefit?
redesigned safety Is this a major benefit?
redesigned mag release Is this a major benefit?
improved bolt-catch attachment Is this a major benefit?
full HPT/MPI bolt
redesigned muzzle brake/flash-hider I can buy a Battle Comp or PWS for $150
Gunfighter charging handle $45
In addition the OBR has a 10MOA top rail which might matter for precision shooting & the Barrel Has the ION Bond coating. Obvious difference is the Price tag - the OBR is $500 less. For another $200 I can add the Gunfighter CH and Battle Comp.
In my view rather then making the same parts (safety, bolt catch & mag release) more beefy they should have come up with ambidextrous controls. Regular mil-spec parts have been fine for decades. Off course that's just my opinion and at today's inflation rate it isn't even worth 2 cents anymore. :D
It all depends if the "improved" parts are really worth it to you. I'd rather buy a SR-15 for $1900 that has real improvements.
Ok, so what your post really meant was "I like/own the OBR and want to defend my preference". It might have been easier if you had just said that to begin with.
I'm not going to turn this thread into a this vs. that, shill magnet, hidden-agenda, barfcom-esque, waste of time. We already had one person banned that couldn't grasp this point.
If you don't see those as benefits, and think the OBR is better, buy the OBR (or maybe you already have one?).
The fact that you don't already know the history of this "texas spec" business, and how it pertains to his BCGs, how it came about because of his representing his BCGs as "milspec" only to find out that they are batch tested (if that), is betraying some amount of ignorance here.
Let me be clear here. I'm not even sure I like the X7 yet, or if it's feature set meets my needs for my uses, but this posting with hidden agendas has got to stop.
and this "ambidextrous controls" hysteria could use a large dose of reality while we're at it.
thopkins22
02-23-11, 12:00
Are you sure about the BCG? This is from Larue's website;
The BCG of the OBR is also hard chromed. And as for the other points;
ceramic coating Is this a major benefit?
beveled mag well Larue's Mag wells are beveled
relief-cut magwell Is this a major benefit?
captured safety spring & detent Is this a major benefit?
high-cut grip Is this a major benefit?
redesigned safety Is this a major benefit?
redesigned mag release Is this a major benefit?
improved bolt-catch attachment Is this a major benefit?
full HPT/MPI bolt
redesigned muzzle brake/flash-hider I can buy a Battle Comp or PWS for $150
Gunfighter charging handle $45
In addition the OBR has a 10MOA top rail which might matter for precision shooting & the Barrel Has the ION Bond coating. Obvious difference is the Price tag - the OBR is $500 less. For another $200 I can add the Gunfighter CH and Battle Comp.
In my view rather then making the same parts (safety, bolt catch & mag release) more beefy they should have come up with ambidextrous controls. Regular mil-spec parts have been fine for decades. Off course that's just my opinion and at today's inflation rate it isn't even worth 2 cents anymore. :D
It all depends if the "improved" parts are really worth it to you. I'd rather buy a SR-15 for $1900 that has real improvements.
Even if none of those are a "major" benefit, you listed seven minor benefits. I also think it's been pretty well hashed out that while Larue may be using BCG's supplied by FN or some other .mil supplier, they are not individually tested to the spec. In fact there was an internet tantrum thrown and Larue changed the wording on their web page. With that said, there aren't many pictures of a failed Larue bolt floating around either.
The 10MOA cant on the OBR lite is a real turnoff to me. I can get the appropriate cant with my mounting solution and not need to deal with special mounts.
On a related, but on-topic, note, if there is any confusion about the feature set of the X7 and the potential benefits and actual merits of those features, I will be posting a full list with my take on each. The list is LONG and it will take some time to identify all of them, compile initial impressions, and then address them based on actual use, not to mention potentially comparing them to other rifles (whether assemblages or factory complete guns).
ColdDeadHands
02-23-11, 12:10
Ok, so what your post really meant was "I like/own the OBR and want to defend my preference". It might have been easier if you had just said that to begin with.
I'm not going to turn this thread into a this vs. that, shill magnet, hidden-agenda, barfcom-esque, waste of time. We already had one person banned that couldn't grasp this point.
If you don't see those as benefits, and think the OBR is better, buy the OBR (or maybe you already have one?).
The fact that you don't already know the history of this "texas spec" business, and how it pertains to his BCGs, how it came about because of his representing his BCGs as "milspec" only to find out that they are batch tested (if that), is betraying some amount of ignorance here.
Let me be clear here. I'm not even sure I like the X7 yet, or if it's feature set meets my needs for my uses, but this posting with hidden agendas has got to stop.
and this "ambidextrous controls" hysteria could use a large dose of reality while we're at it.
Wrong. I don't own one and I don't plan to buy one. You should really work on your attitude. Fact is you started listing this vs. that...
All I said was that the OBR is similar to the other rifle. As for the Larue BCG; I've never heard anything about them but it sure is nice to know that they aren't individually tested.
The purpose of the X7 is to provide a unique combination of features and very high quality that distinguish it from other choices, and in so doing advance the credibility and reputation of NGA.
As a relative unknown in the market, the fact that we're even surviving comparison with Larue, Noveske and others is already an achievement for us.
Frankly, most AR shooters will choose to buy something else. It'll be a budget limitation, not wanting to be an early-adopter, preferring some other style (yes, we know that looks are important to most AR buyers, admit it or not) or just preferring a different optimization. All of this makes sense.
But if accuracy (barrel, trigger, setup) and sights on target are important to you, I really don't think the arguments about features are relevant. Do most people agree with NGA that accuracy and muzzle control are so important? No. Are there 1200 people in this country who do? We hope so.
Wrong. I don't own one and I don't plan to buy one. You should really work on your attitude. Fact is you started listing this vs. that...
All I said was that the OBR is similar to the other rifle. As for the Larue BCG; I've never heard anything about them but it sure is nice to know that they aren't individually tested.
Right, you're just this guy (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74705)
I didn't list this vs. that. You said someone should compare the two, so I took the bait like an idiot and took you at face value. Listed some features that the gun in question have that the gun you dragged into the thread didn't. At which point you showed your cards, or your ignorance, and responded with the equivalent of "so what?"
I really don't think the arguments about features are relevant.
arguments, no. Discussions, I think very much so. You spent the time to design in a whole slew of things that set this gun apart. I find more every day. Some I agree with, some I don't, some I like, some I don't, some I can take advantage of, some I can't.
But readers of this thread need to be open-minded about the product, or bite their tongues. and we've had more than a few agendas disguised as "questions" already.
Even if I never get to a point of comparing the gun to others on the market, I think a clear description of the features, intended benefits, potential merits, and applications of same in actual use will be of value to some people. It's a process I'd go through on anything else, it's just that the X7 has so many of them that it is a monumental task. If I'm reviewing a standard AR there isn't much else to talk about. I have to seek out what sets it apart (which can sometimes be hard) and then evaluate based on that. It's pointless to say "the ergonomics of this gun are great" and somehow attribute that to the manufacturer in question when that fact is inherent in the original design. It only bears addressing if the manufacturer has done something to change the status quo, no matter how small a change.
ColdDeadHands
02-23-11, 14:25
Right, you're just this guy (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74705)
I didn't list this vs. that. You said someone should compare the two, so I took the bait like an idiot and took you at face value. Listed some features that the gun in question have that the gun you dragged into the thread didn't. At which point you showed your cards, or your ignorance, and responded with the equivalent of "so what?"
Just because I love ordering from Larue doesn't mean I have/want one of their rifles. I have no use for SS Barreled rifles.
Just because I love ordering from Larue doesn't mean I have/want one of their rifles. I have no use for SS Barreled rifles.
The barrel on the X7 is stainless steel under that ceramic coating. FYI.
Let's just say this is just another high quality rifle like some have said(....which it's not as it clearly has a proprietary side to it w. numerous unique features to it alone.)
What the heck does having another high quality rifle on the market hurt.....It sucks when my personal favorite rifle's price is reduced due to competition especially. I wish there were only 2-3 rifle makers and we had to pay 100k for each specimen.
Add a name like Costa or LAV to this gun, guarantee some ridiculous accuracy claim, and top it off with a mind pondering piston and you got yourself the highest selling rifle made:suicide:
Add a name like Costa or LAV to this gun, guarantee some ridiculous accuracy claim, and top it off with a mind pondering piston and you got yourself the highest selling rifle made:suicide:
Well, they do have Mike Pannone (http://nga.squarespace.com/mikepannone/) as well as several others you can read about under "shooter profiles".
Unfortunately for the Next Gen guys I tend to be as much of a liability as an asset. :p
Well, they do have Mike Pannone (http://nga.squarespace.com/mikepannone/) as well as several others you can read about under "shooter profiles".
Unfortunately for the Next Gen guys I tend to be as much of a liability as an asset. :p
With liabilities like you, who needs asses, er assets?
Will be getting more rounds through the X7 tonight.
Something I'd like to see discussion on from the group is the subject of the barrel.
Looking strictly at the 14.5" length...
The Noveske Afghan barrel that's used in the T&E rifle is 32 ounces, the same length N4 barrel is 25 ounces, and the same length in the "pencil" profile such as the Daniel Defense CHF barrel is 20 ounces. That means that going to the lightweight profile saves you 3/4 lb.
Would there be more, or less, interest if it NGA offered a model with an alternate, lighter, barrel profile or type with an associated reduced price? What would be your ideal barrel in an NGA gun?
What would be your ideal barrel in an NGA gun?
Assuming that it stays on target and recoils just as smoothly as the X7 I shot, and no more than a 33% increase in 10-shot group MOA, something other than the Afghan. A DD, as you suggested, would be lighter, cheaper, etc. But perhaps the Afghan stays on target better because it is a bit heavier......
It wouldn't be a bad idea for them to offer a 16" midlength barrel. More velocity, greater distance, etc, plus you don't have to deal with a permanent and proprietary flash hider if you want to mount a suppressor.
Their goal is to sell 1200 units so they should provide some degree of barrel choice at that price point.
It wouldn't be a bad idea for them to offer a 16" midlength barrel. More velocity, greater distance, etc, plus you don't have to deal with a permanent and proprietary flash hider if you want to mount a suppressor.
http://www.nextgenerationarms.com/store/
Noveske Barrels
Noveske stainless barrels are widely recognized as the best production match-grade barrels available for the AR-15. There are 2 barrel lengths available. They are made from extra-hard 416R stainless steel, with mid-length gas ports, polygonal rifling in 1:7" twist and are guaranteed sub-MOA. The bore is coated with a specialized ceramic. Compensators and gas blocks are designed and mfg'd by NGA. Each barrel has a specialized, tuned compensator to eliminate muzzle movement. Recommended bullet weight is 55 - 77 grain.
* 14.5" with permanently affixed compensator
* 16" with screw-on compensator
Doh! I guess I was going by the one I actually shot.
Speaking of which, what are your impressions of how it shoots?
Doh! I guess I was going by the one I actually shot.
Speaking of which, what are your impressions of how it shoots?
I have very briefly fired it. I'll hopefully get about 200 rounds through it tonight.
eternal24k
03-01-11, 12:29
To me,
the N4 would be a much better fit to this rifle.
superstratjunky
03-01-11, 12:37
I really like the way this thing looks & am amazed by the attention to detail. As someone mentioned earlier, I to was fooled into thinking that it was a monolithic railed upper! Amazing. With that said, I'm a lefty, but I don't buy the complete ambi hysteria. I only require two things on my rifle & those are an ambi safety switch & CH. I think the switch benefits both righties & lefties by allowing the operator to use the thumb to select fire & the trigger finger to put it on safe. This also is not only quicker, but safer by removing the booger hook from the trigger.
link to video (http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/IMG_1466.mp4)
Got to see this bad boy this evening. Didnt get to shoot it since i had to bug out early.
Impressions.
Things i liked:
Its exceedingly well machined. There is a definite attention to detail present that you dont see on for example a Colt 6920. Yes, the colt is utilitarian and works and its not meant to be a Ferrari like the next gen X7.
The ceramic coating is pretty darned cool. Im sure its got good lubrication properties but it doesnt feel like NP3, ie slick to the touch. There is a certain grainy feel to it without being abrasive.
The pinned muzzle device is probably the most amazing pinning job ever performed by a human unless Next Gen is using robots or demi gods for this portion of the rifle... I was impressed. Again, the little bits here and there that show a dedication towards putting out a finely tuned machine worth the premium.
The balance of the gun is great. Its essentially weighted so the center of gravity appeared to be right over the magwell, pretty cool as this is how i like my rifles set up.
The lower receiver is seriously a work of art. Very well done, the magwell looks interesting and i trust the engineers that it really is bigger. It certainly only looks bigger on the outside but i see what they're getting at when they say it is indeed larger. The question of whether or not it would act as a dirt scoop was brought up and well, the way its designed we all agreed we do not see this happening.
This one will go in both categories. The rail profile was very interesting. Im not sure i like it more or less than tubular rails but i would definitely like to fire the gun and see how my reaction hand rests on the rifle while its recoiling.
Things i didnt like:
I absolutely, positively hated the 3 and 9 o'clock rails. Ew, ew ew. They need to go or they need to be detachable. I understand that there are bolts there that are load bearing but please, neg gen i find the side panels EXTREMELY limiting when it comes to hand placement and a better solution needs to be thought out. Now, take this with a grain of salt, i cannot afford an X7, i will not be buying but so this is merely one opinion in a sea of many. I run my reaction hand fairly far forward on my 11 inch rail. Some people may find the position of the rails perfect.
The mag release is a little weird without knurling. Its very slick. If my finger did happen to slip off of it im pretty sure it would still find its way into the "bowl" around the release itself but im very much on the fence here, im very partial to texture on the mag release as it is definitively different from every other part of the lower receiver on the right hand side.
The comp was a flamethrower. The blast chamber let out quite a few fireballs.
The only thing that i REALLY didnt like was the selector switch. It felt mushy and the profile was just plain bad in my eyes. I wasnt able to flick it off like i am able to do with every other traditional selector lever on the market. No offense intended gents but i think this needs a look over before public consumption.
Other than that i think the rifle is pretty darned neat and i think you guys are a very talented bunch of engineers and machinists. Keep up the good work, despite the fact that i will never own one of these machines i will definitely continue following the product development and i wish you guys all the best!
Thanks Rob for letting me finger the rifle tonight.
I absolutely, positively hated the 3 and 9 o'clock rails. Ew, ew ew. They need to go or they need to be detachable. I understand that there are bolts there that are load bearing but please, neg gen i find the side panels EXTREMELY limiting when it comes to hand placement and a better solution needs to be thought out.
I made mention of this early on in this thread.
I didn't think I would like it from looking at the pictures, and after mounting rails in a similar location on my VTAC to try it out, I still didn't like it.
Perhaps I'm just a brat that's been spoiled by detachable rail options...
Anyway, thank you, rob, for being thorough with all this. It's a welcome relief from some of the other stuff I've been reading various places lately...
...generous snipping warning...
The ceramic coating is pretty darned cool. Im sure its got good lubrication properties but it doesnt feel like NP3, ie slick to the touch. There is a certain grainy feel to it without being abrasive.
I absolutely, positively hated the 3 and 9 o'clock rails. Ew, ew ew.
The comp was a flamethrower. The blast chamber let out quite a few fireballs.
The only thing that i REALLY didnt like was the selector switch. It felt mushy and the profile was just plain bad in my eyes. I wasnt able to flick it off like i am able to do with every other traditional selector lever on the market. No offense intended gents but i think this needs a look over before public consumption.
Glad you like the ceramic. What you liked was the exterior. That is a matte, grainy type of coating. The interior coatings are totally different and are optimized for their function. Look again and feel the carrier for example:)
I wish we knew more about muzzle flash. It's puzzling why so much variability. In our testing with XM193, you can get anywhere from 1 flash per 30 shots to 1 flash per 4 shots. Why not every shot? Why not never? Any help appreciated on this!
The selector switch tension is easily adjusted. I suspect you were put off by the difference in feel but give it another chance. There's a method to the madness here. Sounds like you're using the ballistic switch technique where you flick your thumb at it. Please consider experimenting slightly with hand placement and lay your thumb just over the cylinder of the ss. Without changing hand position you should be able to do a gross thumb movement down or up. The smooth lever and action make this work so that you can do it without moving your hand out of position for the trigger pull. Faster, faster, faster is the result. Try again:)
Ok, ok, I'm hearing ya'all about the long horns on the head of the forend. If we came out with something maybe like this, would that be better? ...
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/newforend.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/newforendfront.jpg
You should use battle comp brakes.
You should use battle comp brakes.
Will be testing this next week. We had no experience with these but the Battle Comp thread in this awesome forum told us in no uncertain terms that ignorance is no excuse! Is it considered an evil flash hider in those AWB states?
Why is flash so variable from shot to shot? Anyone????
Yes, 100% legal in ban states.
In regards to the side rails, I would leave it smooth as possible. If you could remove the indexing blocks shown in your rendering above and simply add some slots or mounting holes, and make some varying lengths of rails to fit anywhere along the sides of the handguard you would have a winner.
I also second or third the notion about using the BattleComp. It is the best option available on the market all things considered (Muzzle control/Flash hiding/Side Concussion).
reposting video. Kind of interesting given what was asked about flash.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/me%20shooting/th_IMG_1466.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/me%20shooting/?action=view¤t=IMG_1466.mp4)
That's some flash.
Looks like you got in on the $299 aimpoint micro deal too. :cool:
You should use battle comp brakes.
Please don't. You would be making an expensive rifle even more expensive for no real benefit. Look at how flat and neutral the rifle fires. Adding a battle comp is going to force you guys to probably re tune your gas port sizing or something in the OS as the BC is going to change the recoil characteristics for the negative.
If anything, keep testing your comp, its a neat design and has merit.
Add the bc as an option for those that follow it like rabid dogs, in the end, provided you maintain your margins you will benefit from catering to popular trending to a degree.
My comments about the selector still stand. I do not alter my hand position when operating the safety controls on any AR safety. Perhaps the tension did need adjusting. All in all it's a minor niggle and the comments still stand that the rifle is damned nice.
I also think the muzzle device should be retained.
On the subject of the safety, I think it may be important to note that the gun had ~150 rounds through it, half of which was from a bench, when Magsz saw it. It is a bit stiff, it does have some stutter points at the extreme ends, but I have no doubt that it will break in like every other safety I've ever dealt with.
I see a good number of ARs, from factory guns to home-assemblies, and the safety always seems to benefit from a couple hundred revolutions.
From my experience XM193 produces fireballs in most muzzle devices except for the really good dedicated flash hiders......
NGA might look at rail panels that screw directly into tapped/threaded holes in the forearm, like a YHM or JP. None of the backing plate BS like Troy/VTAC TRX Extreme.
Scroll down to "customizable free float"
http://www.yhm.net/store/forearms.html
Why is flash so variable from shot to shot? Anyone????
I think it happens when some carbon gets built up in the ports. My BC1.5 does it maybe once a mag.
NGA might look at rail panels that screw directly into tapped/threaded holes in the forearm, like a YHM or JP. None of the backing plate BS like Troy/VTAC TRX Extreme.
Scroll down to "customizable free float"
http://www.yhm.net/store/forearms.html
The bottom rails on the NGA attach via threads embedded in the tube, not with backing plates.
There is currently no provision to mount added rails on the sides. At first his bothered me but now I kind of prefer it that way. Wil all of the various offset mounts available today and with QD sling swivels fore and aft I see no need for side rails and adding the female screw mounts would just add complexity and cost for no reason.
The bottom rails on the NGA attach via threads embedded in the tube, not with backing plates.
There is currently no provision to mount added rails on the sides. At first his bothered me but now I kind of prefer it that way. Wil all of the various offset mounts available today and with QD sling swivels fore and aft I see no need for side rails and adding the female screw mounts would just add complexity and cost for no reason.
I'm talking about the option of putting a detachable rail panel at the 3:00 and 9:00 position by the muzzle. Tapping four holes doesn't add that much complexity. It's not a $799 AR. With that said, I prefer that area "smooth". Perhaps I'm nitpicking too much, but NGA has said that this rifle isn't for the tinkerers who want to customize everything.....it's for someone with discerning tastes who wants a great rifle right out of the box.
If anything- assuming that the handguard is an extrusion- tapping would save NGA some time and money because they wouldn't have to mill down the rear portion of the rail (behind the muzzle portion that Magsz was referring to).
They aren't just tapping four holes, but OK.
The point I'm making is that
1) they already have mounting holes on the system that don't require loose backers. I assume therefore that they both know how to do this and that if they decided to add them elsewhere they'd use the same system
and
2) I personally don't see a need for any rail sections on the sides anyway because of all the different mounting options on the market today.
reposting video. Kind of interesting given what was asked about flash.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/me%20shooting/th_IMG_1466.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/me%20shooting/?action=view¤t=IMG_1466.mp4)
Looks to be a very flat shooting rifle from your vid. The flash seemed on par with other brakes and nothing unexpected... How would you compare this brake to some of the others you have experience with?
How do you like the shape of the rail when compared to your VTAC tubes?
Looks to be a very flat shooting rifle from your vid. The flash seemed on par with other brakes and nothing unexpected... How would you compare this brake to some of the others you have experience with?
How do you like the shape of the rail when compared to your VTAC tubes?
Those questions are actually harder to answer than you might think.
re: the muzzle device
The NGA is a heavier gun than I would typically shoot. I can't, therefore, really comment on the device alone. Up to now one of the softest-shooting guns I'd fired was the 14.5" mid-length BCM with PWS FS556, and I intend to try and get some side-by-side shooting time with the two guns.
re: the shape of the rail
With the placement of the two rail sections at the front end my hand is not exactly where I'd ideally want it to be. I *think* I like this shape, but can't say for sure. I am, however, relatively sure that it's not really going to be a big deal to me either way. Round, trapezoid, whatever.
Those questions are actually harder to answer than you might think.
re: the muzzle device
The NGA is a heavier gun than I would typically shoot. I can't, therefore, really comment on the device alone. Up to now one of the softest-shooting guns I'd fired was the 14.5" mid-length BCM with PWS FS556, and I intend to try and get some side-by-side shooting time with the two guns.
re: the shape of the rail
With the placement of the two rail sections at the front end my hand is not exactly where I'd ideally want it to be. I *think* I like this shape, but can't say for sure. I am, however, relatively sure that it's not really going to be a big deal to me either way. Round, trapezoid, whatever.
Thanks Rob, it certainly makes sense that the weight of the rifle helps mitigate the recoil and that it would be difficult to compare it to other devices that you use on a significantly lighter rifle.
I was just curious on the rail as I have become a big fan of the VTAC tube and it looked comparable to some degree.
From my experience XM193 produces fireballs in most muzzle devices except for the really good dedicated flash hiders......
NGA might look at rail panels that screw directly into tapped/threaded holes in the forearm, like a YHM or JP. None of the backing plate BS like Troy/VTAC TRX Extreme.
Scroll down to "customizable free float"
http://www.yhm.net/store/forearms.html
Given a choice, I'd rather having the backing plate BS on aluminum forearms. Threads in aluminum are not durable and strip easily, especially when the material is thin. It's much easier and cheaper to replace a stripped plate than attempting to repair threads in the forearm
Given a choice, I'd rather having the backing plate BS on aluminum forearms. Threads in aluminum are not durable and strip easily, especially when the material is thin. It's much easier and cheaper to replace a stripped plate than attempting to repair threads in the forearm
If properly produced, helicoil inserts alleviate alot of those issues.
Granted, i DO agree with you but i dont think we are going to see much of an issue with proper implementation of helicoils.
Speaking of which, i didnt look too closely, are there helicoil inserts in the X7 rail?
...
If anything- assuming that the handguard is an extrusion-
...
The forend is made in two pieces, a top and bottom, fastened along the midline. The bumps you see front and rear on the new design are for Torx screws to clamp the pieces together. The pieces are machined from 7075 T6 billets. After machining the interiors of both pieces, they are clamped together and finished through machining as a unit. This design is intended for max rigidity. It's not the cheapest and easiest to make, I assure you.
There is provision in the new design posted above for side rails to be mounted. That's what the two holes are for. They will not be threaded for rather obvious reasons (the midline is a seam). We use special stainless steel collet inserts for all mounting holes. Not helicoils. The bottom has 7 of these collets for bottom rail mounting. They are pressed in and won't be coming out. Nor will they spin when you overtighten.
p.s. - We are working on an extrusion-based forend but I doubt it will ever see the light of day. The main reason I'd prefer an extrusion is for even more rigidity since there'd be no seam down the midline. It would also be lower cost. The problems with extrusions are similar to the problem of machining a forging. Precision suffers significantly. This makes mounting the forend less rigid. It's a bigger compromise than you non-machinists are probably thinking. Also, it's less flexible to make design changes once you're locked into an extrusion.
Are you guys up in the Moscow area?, thanks
Ron
Are you guys up in the Moscow area?, thanks
Ron
Moscow, Idaho for those who have never heard of the home of the University of Idaho, among other notable points of interest. Nope, we're in Hayden, just north of CDA.
I know it well. When I worked bail bonds I had to scoop up someone at the old Aryan Nations compound. It was a wonderful time. :suicide:
Moscow, Idaho for those who have never heard of the home of the University of Idaho, among other notable points of interest. Nope, we're in Hayden, just north of CDA.
A few thoughts...
I found an Army study about flash and flash suppression on line a while back.. very interesting stuff about which I had no idea of the mechanics at work. I would offer it up, but I'm not sure where I squirreled it away. It originally turned up on a google search I made for something related (it was a .pdf file).
Have you run it suppressed? I was wondering if the relieved mag well offered an alternate path for gasses rather than coming out the charging handle cut. Perhaps an unintended consequence, but judging by the amount of smegma on my magazines after shooting supressed, having a 'way out' for gas/smoke/residue besides under my nose might be a good thing.
We've talked about the forend a few times but it might help to show how it's all put together. Here are a few shots of just-machined and bead blasted pieces looking from the back end of the forend to show how the top and bottom go together and how they fit on the custom barrel nut...
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/misc/IMG_1207.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/misc/IMG_1210.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/misc/IMG_1181.jpg
Notice in the first photo how there is an index step cut into the interface between top and bottom. The pieces sort of snap together and the tight fit of the index step makes the structure much stronger than a flat seam.
Notice the precision fit around the barrel nut.
Next, notice the projections at the rear of the second shot that wrap around the shoulder of the upper receiver. This mate is also a precision affair and results in an almost seamless top rail.
Finally, the bottom shot shows how the seam virtually disappears between the top and bottom half when clamped together. This is just a bead blasted assembly. No coatings.
More on the forend front ...
We decided to switch over to this new design. Should increase ventilation a bit, be more rigid due to the vertical ribs in the top slotting, it eliminates the side rails that are in the wrong position for some people, yet provides side rails to be mounted optionally up front and it improves the sling mounting options considerably, including rotation limits.
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/f2105a.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/f2105b.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/f2105_with_rail.jpg
The bump near the front is needed for 3 6/32 screws to clamp the top and bottom together on each side. It isn't a big bump and is probably too far foward to seriously get in the way of any grips. Actually, it's a feature. A reference point. Yeah that's it.
friendlyfireisnt
03-03-11, 22:14
That forearm looks very nice and functional. Glad to see sling mounts front and back.
.
If I am seeing correctly, it looks like the QD sling points are inserts held in place w/ 2 screws & not just machined into the alum HG?
If so, does NGA plan on selling the inserts separate...like to install on a MOE??
.
A few thoughts...
I found an Army study about flash and flash suppression on line a while back.. very interesting stuff about which I had no idea of the mechanics at work. I would offer it up, but I'm not sure where I squirreled it away. It originally turned up on a google search I made for something related (it was a .pdf file).
Yeah, I've been reading everything I can get my hands on about muzzle flash and have learned a lot but not enough. The term for the flash that we're all talking about is "secondary muzzle flash". It's simply the ignition of fuel outside of the muzzle. The fuel is a combination of unburned powder particles and gases like methane, etc, etc that encounters oxygen in the turbulent air, heat in the intermediate flash and pressure in the Mach compression wave. The design of the "flash hider" directs the stream of gas in some mysterious way that avoids the ignition. Every shot with every type of ammunition out of a mid-length or shorter barrel will have a large amount of fuel in the exiting gas. I've read that some combos of rifle and ammo result in more than half of the powder emerging unburnt, although in various intermediate chemical forms. The reason for variation from shot to shot is either inherent variations in 1) powder charge, 2) primary ignition, 3) bullet seal and friction in the bore, 4) temperature of the intermediate blast, 5) oxygen concentration in the air and 6) mysteries of fractals and randomness in nature. Apparently though, some muzzle devices can distribute the gas stream in certain ways that avoid secondary blast most of the time. I'll be working on that you can be sure. Finally, for now anyway, there is a warning regarding secondary muzzle blast. This may be associated with large pressure spikes inside the muzzle as well. I've heard of secondary pressure spikes before and we actually have a Pressure Trace system for measuring this, but haven't used it yet. There's always more interesting stuff to do than time to do it.
Have you run it suppressed? I was wondering if the relieved mag well offered an alternate path for gasses rather than coming out the charging handle cut. Perhaps an unintended consequence, but judging by the amount of smegma on my magazines after shooting supressed, having a 'way out' for gas/smoke/residue besides under my nose might be a good thing.
I hate to admit that we haven't done suppressed testing of the X7. Just hasn't been one of the priorities even though it needs to be done. My guess is that the mag well would greatly improve the "smegma" inside the magazines but I'm not sure when we'll know this is fact or myth. Thanks for the question though. Hadn't thought of that.
That forearm looks very nice and functional. Glad to see sling mounts front and back.
Thanks. I'm always nervous posting this stuff. You're a tough audience to please.
.
If I am seeing correctly, it looks like the QD sling points are inserts held in place w/ 2 screws & not just machined into the alum HG?
If so, does NGA plan on selling the inserts separate...like to install on a MOE??
.
You are seeing correctly and to make it work in your MOE should be easy. Can you measure the minimum distance between the slots at the bottom of the triangle in the MOE? And also what is the width of those slots? If they'll take a 4/40 screw then it should work. Hmmm, now for the hard question... Would we sell it aftermarket? It's too surprising a question to answer off the cuff, but maybe.
But, what is this more than a very high-priced franken-gun with the builder's logo slapped on the side of the lower?
By this definition, almost all the makers out there are building "franken-guns" with their logo slapped on the side of the lower. Except Colt, and maybe Noveske, and the lower main brands like RRA, BM, etc. And even some of those guys guns would qualify.
By this definition, almost all the makers out there are building "franken-guns" with their logo slapped on the side of the lower. Except Colt, and maybe Noveske, and the lower main brands like RRA, BM, etc. And even some of those guys guns would qualify.
For a second it seemed like Al Franken, senator from MN, had gone into the business of making AR's, but that's not right is it?
Sorry for the SNL satire. If you're saying NGA is NOT building "franken-guns", well, thanks!
For a second it seemed like Al Franken, senator from MN, had gone into the business of making AR's, but that's not right is it?
Sorry for the SNL satire. If you're saying NGA is NOT building "franken-guns", well, thanks!
I certainly wouldn't consider it one.
Someone, probably here on M4C, defined a "franken gun" as one made of unknown parts (like those purchased at a gun show) of unknown quality put together by someone who does not not know what they are doing.
Ahh, here it is. F2S said it:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=8572&page=3
I don't consider my own home built guns frankenguns either. They are all top notch parts (VLTOR, Magpul, DD, Troy, etc) and I think I know what I am doing. My guns have made it through multi-day courses without failure.
Btw, if you do every get around to selling your receiver and stuff separately I'd be interested in a lower, bcg, and upper that I can barrel and put a foreend on and everything else myself :-)
Totally off-topic, but everyone who builds a frankengun thinks they know what they are doing. ;) and the term is only derogatory if your franken-gun is a POS.
This is pretty clearly not a frankengun. Among other things, it's a factory assembly of parts, not some guy in his garage. In addition, there are proprietary parts that NGA DOES make such as the lower and the free-float handguard system, and I defy anyone to start ceramic-coating (even their sourced parts) in their garage or basement.
I believe back a couple of pages NGA lists their proprietary parts and whether or not they can be substituted/replaced with stock parts. Or maybe I'm thinking of an email exchange we had. At any rate, NGA has done a good job of attempting to improve on some of the parts while retaining the ability to replace those parts with stock pieces should they fail.
I like the look of the new handguard system. Can we get a projection dimension on the new front bump, and distance from the muzzle-end of the tube, along with the same information on the current design that we can compare to? I'd be interested to know the following for both systems
projection from side of rail
height
width
distance from muzzle end of rail
Depending on the answers, I think that the bumps *could* act as an index point whereas the current rail sections just get in the way.
Ask and (sometimes) ye shall receive. Here's 3 pairs of screen snips from Solidworks comparing the new vs. the old.
Side view dimensions (note the new forend is slightly shorter overall):
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/f2105%20snips/f2105_side_view_drawing.JPG
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/f2105%20snips/f1105_side_view_drawing.JPG
Frontal cross-section views:
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/f2105%20snips/f2105_bump_front.JPG
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/f2105%20snips/f1105_bump_front.JPG
Perspective view of what's in your way in the grip area:
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/f2105%20snips/f2015_bump_iso_closeup.JPG
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/f2105%20snips/f1105_bump_iso_closeup.JPG
More appropriate optic to this platform I think.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/photo1-2-1.jpg
Also wanted to thank Robert for posting the pictures of the rail bump. I greatly prefer that new interface at the front end of the rail and think it will work out great.
Still going through my writeup of the list of features, description, and my impressions. It's slow-going because I'm also pausing to take pictures and then (which is my downfall) processing the pictures. I'm pretty sure that by the time I'm done it will be too long for anyone to want to read, but at least nobody will be able to say it wasn't comprehensive.
There will be at least ONE seriously interested reader!
Here's a version that shipped this week that I thought was worth looking at. DMR trigger, 16" barrel, PRS.
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/IMG_1234.jpg
Nice! I really like the new forend design and the SPR variant...it is the setup I'd be interested in.
I can't wait to get my X7. I got to meet these guys last month. Their communication has been great with me I just upgraded to the new rail should be ready in a few weeks.
Another 100 rounds through the gun bringing the total up to 343. Not a lot, I grant you, but it was a match environment with 9 magazine changes which is good for both training and checking out the gun.
I'm starting to take advantage of the trigger and the muzzle control. When you shoot as many different guns as I do it sometimes takes awhile to get the feel for a new one and start to take advantage of it's individual benefits. In this case I was shooting more slowly than I needed to when I started out each stage but then realized that the reticule wasn't really moving and I could be shooting faster. Getting the hang of things and getting into a groove with this gun.
Will get another 100 or so through it next Tuesday as well.
At long last, after trying a few different interim versions, here's the new forend. It's 11.5" long, has much greater ventilation, 4 QD sling mounts and is user removable/replaceable. Oh and no front side rails in the way of anyone's grip, unless of course you want an optional side rail or two. The top and bottom piece are dovetailed together into a very strong, rigid cage (perhaps excessively so).
Yes, the sling mounts are rotation limited to about 60 degrees in 4 quadrants.
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/IMG_1689.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/IMG_1691.jpg
The following 2 shots show the forward and back-set mounting positions for the side rails.
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/IMG_1684.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/IMG_1686.jpg
Lots of stuff to like about that new rail of yours....things that overwhelmingly stand out are the length(I like long rails), the actual shape...I'd love to actually feel what this rail is like in your hands, and lastly the limited rotation qd cups, this shows you are listening to your potential customers unlike so many mfg'rs.
Nice work:)
My NGA X7 is almost complete. I'm glad waited for the lastest version of the rail. I hope to see you guys soon!!
Find ManBearPig!
04-21-11, 01:39
That rail is sexy, and it looks strong, modular, and comfortable as well. Good work, glad to see that you are able to adapt so quickly and readily to the end users demands.
Very cool.
Do you think you'd ever sell them as a stand alone product?
Definitely an impressive evolution of the design.
Very cool.
Do you think you'd ever sell them as a stand alone product?
Thanks to everyone for the nice comments.
Regarding selling the forend (or other parts) separately, probably not, but it's under consideration. The two main reasons that its' not a good aftermarket part candidate are 1) the continuous rail design depends on a customized upper receiver, which you would also need and 2) NGA is not geared up for producing the extra volume.
On the other hand, we'd like to see NGA designs being used by the active AR community (that's you guys) rather than just the doctors and dentists out there who don't tend to post on forums.
But probably not.
I'll have some other new designs to show soon though that will definitely be sold separately since that's their whole purpose.
I really like the looks of that rail.
Just a few pics to complete yesterday's thought.
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/IMG_1712.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/IMG_1715.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/IMG_1718.jpg
Almost forgot to follow up on this topic from earlier in the thread. We have implemented a small change to the lower receiver program in production and so all X7's henceforth are compatible. I can't say for sure whether any of the other similar devices fit because they haven't been tested. The bolt catch wobble has been reduced compared to most other guns out there so your lever on the X7 will be a noticeable improvement.
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/IMG_1786.jpg
Great so is mine ready? I might be heading north tonite!!
Are you sure about the BCG? This is from Larue's website;
The BCG of the OBR is also hard chromed. And as for the other points;
ceramic coating Is this a major benefit?
beveled mag well Larue's Mag wells are beveled
relief-cut magwell Is this a major benefit?
captured safety spring & detent Is this a major benefit?
high-cut grip Is this a major benefit?
redesigned safety Is this a major benefit?
redesigned mag release Is this a major benefit?
improved bolt-catch attachment Is this a major benefit?
full HPT/MPI bolt
redesigned muzzle brake/flash-hider I can buy a Battle Comp or PWS for $150
Gunfighter charging handle $45
In addition the OBR has a 10MOA top rail which might matter for precision shooting & the Barrel Has the ION Bond coating. Obvious difference is the Price tag - the OBR is $500 less. For another $200 I can add the Gunfighter CH and Battle Comp.
In my view rather then making the same parts (safety, bolt catch & mag release) more beefy they should have come up with ambidextrous controls. Regular mil-spec parts have been fine for decades. Off course that's just my opinion and at today's inflation rate it isn't even worth 2 cents anymore. :D
It all depends if the "improved" parts are really worth it to you. I'd rather buy a SR-15 for $1900 that has real improvements.
i find this argument/analogy/comparison an unfortunate and common occurrence on the internet.
it's already been said earlier in the thread that this product is seeking to be a highly refined piece.
the reason this comparison or argument is offensive to me is because you see it in the car world all the time. a porsche gt3 cup is more than it's horsepower to weight ratio, it's even more than it's tire contact patch area. what makes a high end factory race car is all the small things like brake pedal feel, steering response, gear shift feel and other tiny refinements.
can you take any old car and dump horsepower and tires into it and make a "fast" car? certainly. can a race driver take advantage of those qualities? of course. but does such a product get the _affection_ of the operator? only if you delivered all the little things the operator loves.
i think the same principles apply here. they even admitted that it's not going to be everyone's bag of chips. their refinements may very well be someone else's woes.
eternal24k
05-02-11, 07:17
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/IMG_1786.jpg
:cool:
Looks great!
Why not just make the lower fully ambidextrous for us leftys :sad:
Why not just make the lower fully ambidextrous for us leftys :sad:
We'd very much like to. The problem is one of scale. We're a very small outfit and the X7 was a large stretch as it was.
An ambi-LR attracts some buyers but repels others and so to do it right would require 2 separate options, std and ambi. That was too much to tackle so the conservative option won out.
I honestly hope to implement a full, symmetrical ambi-LR by end of 2011. Not a promise though.
A buddy and I took delivery of our NX7's yesterday. We got to see the the final assembly of our NX7's.....including a bore scope digital camera to inspect our noveske barrels after testing firing . I'm glad we waited for the version 3 of the rail very rigid and the 1.5" longer rail will be good for the surefire X300. I will post pics and vids when all the snow melts from our range.... cheers
We now have a permanent presence on m4c and are very happy to be on board. Just posted are some vids from customer archad (see post above) and a photo of Robb Jensen's new test and evaluation X7.
Head over to the industry section and look up Next Generation Arms if you're curious.
This is turning into an excellent looking rifle with some great features... Great job on listening to the input of others when considering design changes. Hope to see one in person in short order.
Shooters very 1st half n half drill ever shot with the X-7 near Winchester,Idaho
http://youtu.be/-xEsgbgThl8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2KW96MpG1Q&feature=player_profilepage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpBDvZVMALI&feature=player_profilepage
range pics anyone interested in shooting here pm me this a private range
http://fototime.com/61CE2692B174832/standard.jpg
http://fototime.com/50D28304E2B9641/standard.jpg
http://fototime.com/7B1D640FB3E90A9/standard.jpg
I've been reluctant to post daily stuff in this thread in order to keep it meaningful but a box of avocados arriving from a customer in CA just deserved special attention. We don't grow these here in N.ID.
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/x7%20w%20avocados.jpg
I figured it would be a good time to resurrect this thread instead of starting a new one.
After shooting Mike Pannone's X7 twice, and looking at how infrequently I shot some of my ARs, I began to think that it would more worthwhile to spend a bit more and get a truly improved AR. Ammo is expensive, trips to the range are expensive, optics are expensive, so why not get the most out of your shooting experience and get the best gun you can?
With those justifications in mind, I decided it was time to pull the trigger, and have been extremely pleased with its performance. Mine has a Noveske 14.5" stainless barrel, with a pinned, proprietary flash hider. To date I have approximately 400 rounds through it. I'd like to have more but such is the summer of a father with 2 munchkins.
The accuracy of this carbine is phenomenal. I shot an array of 5 steel targets at 203 yards (measured with a laser rangefinder) at Echo Valley Training Center.
With IMI M193 (which I am becoming increasingly fond of) and an EOTech, I was able to hit repeatedly the smallest of them (3" wide) from mag monopod prone. To me, that is astonishing accuracy and proof that the gun seems to be outshooting the ammo. With 3 A-zone plates (5x11") at 50 yards spaced 9 yards apart, I was able to transition from target to target in 1.02 to 1.10 seconds. As has been previously discussed, it has a very neutral recoil. Mine came with an H2 buffer and an extremely stiff recoil spring.
NGA has definitely figured out some of the weaker links in the system and areas most prone to failure. They were not satisfied with the existing gas blocks on the market, so they designed their own. They also drill the gas port of the Noveske barrels in-house.
When I asked him about the gas block, Robert commented: "It grips the gas block seat at 12 and 6 but doesn't touch at 3 and 9. It's essentially a very powerful spring-loaded clamp that is machined for a one-to-one fit with the gas block seat. The seat itself is polished on the lathe to a mirror finish and a dimple is machined into the 6 oclock position of the seat. The block is pressed onto the seat hydraulically. A set screw is torqued into the 6 oclock hole to provide a pre-set 700lbs of pull on the block. The screw is made permanent with a stake. The material is 17-4ph stainless steel. The reason for the prestressing is to prevent the lift-off of the top section during firing. There's about 200 lbs of upward and 300 lbs of forward peak thrust on the gas block each time you fire"
The muzzle pinning is also top notch.
"A hole is drilled through the compensator penetrating the muzzle threads approx .04". A solid pin is pressed and welded into place and then ground flush to the compensator with the mill. Ceramic coating is applied afterward and the result is a nearly seamless integration of a permanent pin through the compensator into the barrel threads." It is the smoothest pinning job I've seen.
The ceramic coating on the inside and outside varies in thickness from .0002" to .001". The ceramic is on top of Type III mil anodizing, so you have an extremely durable finish.
The bolt carrier group is also ceramic coated. After a 120-round session I was amazed how easily the fouling wiped off. I don't clean my guns every 120 rounds, but I did want to see how clean the gun shot compared to other more "pedestrian" ARs at my disposal.
When I brought the carbine to Jason Falla's recent class, everyone seemed to like the grey finish, and the flared magazine well was a big hit.
I will be posting more pictures and reports down the road.
If I had to pick just one standout, or favorite, feature of the X7 it would be the magwell without doubt. Very innovative and well thought out.
The flared mag well is definitely a key benefit. I'd say my favorite is the handguard shape. The convex shape really helps control weapon manipulation (call me old school but I like the thin end of an A1), and it's very strong. The muzzle end doesn't move like a Troy/VTAC TRX when pressure is applied.
Yes I like the magwell to. The rail is very rigid. I have 1800 rounds through mine and not a single malfuntion to date in the X-7 and BCG cleaning is super fast. I have the 14.5 Noveske barrel with the IMI M193 ammo and a T-1 I was suprised how accurate it is. I'm not sure how many NGA X-7 are on M4C maybe we can get some more feedback.
mkmckinley
08-29-11, 23:21
These things look great. The magwell and rail in particular. I don't think I'll be able to afford one this year but I wonder if they'd consider selling just the rail to put on standard ARs.
Thanks for the good words everyone.
We're edging closer to the day when components may be offered for sale. Unfortunately the X7 is not really designed for user assembly/disassembly, so it would require specialized versions designed for that purpose and... well... there's something called the X8 we're working hard on at the moment, so... it won't be this year.
Just so that others reading this don't get twisted...
Typically when I get a new gun in for review, I identify the unique features of the gun and start photographing and writing about them. For the typical AR it might be one or two unique pieces. In the case of the NGA X7 I was writing, and photographing, for quite some time.
This (https://sites.google.com/site/tacticalyellowvisor/next-generation-arms-x7) is an incomplete writeup as I just flat ran out of time. But it gives you some idea of how they addressed virtually every single piece on the gun.
Rob- good info in your write up. They made several changes to the handguard and gas block that I will try to get pictures of later. Not sure I can get good pics of the gas block, but there is no longer an integrated rail on the sides. You can bolt them on by removing two small set screws. You just need to use a small sling swivel (not a large "heavy duty" one) if you're using a Troy front BUIS. You can see the head of one of the small set screws below the QD swivel socket below.
Here's the ceramic bolt carrier group residue wipe-off after 120 rounds.
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc295/B055H0GG/NGAboltcarriergroup.jpg
Here's what the updated handguard looks like. Pretty slim:
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc295/B055H0GG/NGAhandguard.jpg
in comparison to a Troy VTAC Extreme
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc295/B055H0GG/IMG_2691.jpg
I took the X7 to the indoor range today. Unfortunately, my EOTech XPS decided it was time for a new battery so I shot only with Troy BUIS. I was able to get all A-zone hits when doing 5 round "bursts" with around 0.20 splits at 25 yards with irons only. The gun stays on target like you wouldn't believe.
Boss Hogg mentioned the new gas block a few posts up. Here's what it looks like:
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X7/NGA%20gas%20block.jpg
It looks really interesting. But with all the changes they made I wish they would have put in a forward assist near the trigger guard though.
In moving from the X7 to the new X8 we are dropping the FA entirely. The controls on the X8 are mirrored left and right (symmetric ambi), including mag release, bolt catch/release, safety and ch.handle.
Here's some renders of where we're at on the X8 (short barrel config shown; the forend scales with barrel length):
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X8/110925 x8 right.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X8/110925 x8 left.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X8/110925 x8 right close.jpg
http://media.nextgenerationarms.com/images/rifles/X8/110925 x8 left close.jpg
Is that an integral receiver extension, or can we substitute our own? I've grown fond of my A5...
Is that an integral receiver extension, or can we substitute our own? I've grown fond of my A5...
Both the upper and lower are fully monolithic. We will very likely offer A5 length tubes after the basic machining hurdles for the std one have been well worked out. On the other hand, there is in reality little practical difference between the recoil performance of the A5 and the std length in the X7.
One more thing to make clear on the X8...
It's not an AR15 anymore. And it's not intended for home assembly.
Compatible: barrel assembly, bcg, rail, ch. handle, buffer/spring, butt stock and some grips
Incompatible: chassis and all controls, springs and hardware
The trigger and hammer are Geissele std pieces mounted in a non-std module that slips in and out without any retention other than the upper. This module required widening of the receivers.
One more thing to make clear on the X8...
It's not an AR15 anymore. And it's not intended for home assembly.
Compatible: barrel assembly, bcg, rail, ch. handle, buffer/spring, butt stock and some grips
Incompatible: chassis and all controls, springs and hardware
The trigger and hammer are Geissele std pieces mounted in a non-std module that slips in and out without any retention other than the upper. This module required widening of the receivers.
I would say that most AR manufacturers wouldn't officially intend for their guns to be "user serviced", even though they know it's inevitable. As long as I can obtain and replace the parts that wear out quickly (springs, BCG components mostly) I'm happy.
One more thing to make clear on the X8...
It's not an AR15 anymore. And it's not intended for home assembly.
Compatible: barrel assembly, bcg, rail, ch. handle, buffer/spring, butt stock and some grips
Incompatible: chassis and all controls, springs and hardware
The trigger and hammer are Geissele std pieces mounted in a non-std module that slips in and out without any retention other than the upper. This module required widening of the receivers.
Any details on the gas system? Looks like a piston to my untrained eye, but your mention of BCG compatability makes me think that it is a DI regulator.
Very interesting and cool looking design.
Any details on the gas system? Looks like a piston to my untrained eye, but your mention of BCG compatability makes me think that it is a DI regulator.
Very interesting and cool looking design.
It's conventional DI. The gas block is the one shown a few posts back and it'll behave just like Boss Hogg's X7 on the previous page, ie easy to clean and not all that dirty compared to uncoated actions.
I saw the GB earlier but was confused by the renditions shown. There seems to be more than just a gas block and gas tube under the front of the handguards.
ETA: I understand that these are design drawings, so don't think I'm trying to pick them apart.
I saw the GB earlier but was confused by the renditions shown. There seems to be more than just a gas block and gas tube under the front of the handguards.
ETA: I understand that these are design drawings, so don't think I'm trying to pick them apart.
That's why I'm posting them now, in case someone catches something important before it's harder to fix later:) What you're seeing is the unusual shape of the gas block and the gas assembly is a bit more visible due to the lack of rails and large amount of air in the slotting of the forend.
Also I noticed that you can see the hole in the bottom of the gas block that the cross pin goes through, which reminds me that the render of the gas block on the previous page was missing that (I'd forgotten it was an early version).
Specifically, there's a single 10-32 set screw that snugs up to a dimple machined into the bottom of the barrel. The screw is tightened until the gas block distorts approximately .002", which indicates that it has achieved the proper preload to prevent the seal from opening during firing. After the screw is tightened, it is cross-drilled and pinned.
The first few we did were spot welded in place but the cross pin is a bit more serviceable.
In moving from the X7 to the new X8 we are dropping the FA entirely. The controls on the X8 are mirrored left and right (symmetric ambi), including mag release, bolt catch/release, safety and ch.handle.
This is awesome, and much more of what I was hoping for in the original. Are you planning your own ambi charging handle? If not, have you considered talking to BCM about an ambi Gunfighter?
On your website you mention the X7's more complicated barrel mounting; are you moving toward something more MRP-like to make it more user friendly? Given the barrel options I don't think anyone has doubts about the quality of the barrel, but I'm positive folks would appreciate a rifle they can tweak into different roles (like different styles of competition shooting) without buying a new rifle for each role.
Would you be able to share any thoughts on addressing the handguard heating up? My first thought is beefing them up a little, but that creates internal diameter concerns for gas blocks and rail accessories.
-B
This is awesome, and much more of what I was hoping for in the original. Are you planning your own ambi charging handle? If not, have you considered talking to BCM about an ambi Gunfighter?
On your website you mention the X7's more complicated barrel mounting; are you moving toward something more MRP-like to make it more user friendly? Given the barrel options I don't think anyone has doubts about the quality of the barrel, but I'm positive folks would appreciate a rifle they can tweak into different roles (like different styles of competition shooting) without buying a new rifle for each role.
Would you be able to share any thoughts on addressing the handguard heating up? My first thought is beefing them up a little, but that creates internal diameter concerns for gas blocks and rail accessories.
-B
The ambi charging handle is my design. We'll see how much it changes through testing but right now it grabs well from either side but has less "poke in the chest" while carrying than most.
The barrel mount is still quite subject to change but is basically a simple flat clamp secured with 4 bolts. They are all hidden inside the forend except the top one is hollow and secures through the back of the upper. This looks like the simplest mechanism that will positively retain the barrel in the X8's very robust barrel seat. It will require special long-shafted drivers to reach in and tighten the fasteners.
I've been studying the heating of the forend and the 1st order answer is "coatings". It turns out that the "R-value" of the aluminum cage is dominated by the thin coatings, in our case Cerakote. Adding thickness is the simplest way to double or quadruple the "R-value" and that's what we're experimenting with atm. Later we may try some type of fancy polymer grip.
There's also the possibility of interior reflectors that serve as "heat shields" but I want to try and avoid this if possible.
BufordTJustice
09-26-11, 02:12
RFS,
I'm curious as to what brand/type of CS recoil spring you've been using in the X7? I'm simply shocked at how smoothly it seems to shoot in the videos.
I read on your website that an H2 buffer is employed, but the brand/type of CS buffer spring wasn't mentioned.
Lastly, the X8 looks mighty impressive. Thanks for sharing it with the forum.
RFS,
I'm curious as to what brand/type of CS recoil spring you've been using in the X7? I'm simply shocked at how smoothly it seems to shoot in the videos.
I read on your website that an H2 buffer is employed, but the brand/type of CS buffer spring wasn't mentioned.
Lastly, the X8 looks mighty impressive. Thanks for sharing it with the forum.
The spring is made to our spec by a spring maker. I'm not going to give the spring "weight" here but it's at the top end of action spring weights you're likely to run across. Our springs are coated by a Cerakote coating and this negates the main criticism people have of CS springs, which is corrosion.
The X8 is a fun project. It's main purpose is to examine the methods and practicality of monolithic chassis pieces. It should be just as good a shooter as the X7 but will support faster manipulation techniques, etc, etc.
warlord260
09-26-11, 19:57
Thanks. I'm always nervous posting this stuff. You're a tough audience to please.
You are seeing correctly and to make it work in your MOE should be easy. Can you measure the minimum distance between the slots at the bottom of the triangle in the MOE? And also what is the width of those slots? If they'll take a 4/40 screw then it should work. Hmmm, now for the hard question... Would we sell it aftermarket? It's too surprising a question to answer off the cuff, but maybe.
I just used your post, as to be directed to you. I would like to know your background, engineer, or machinist? I am both thats why i am asking.
The X8 is a fun project. It's main purpose is to examine the methods and practicality of monolithic chassis pieces. It should be just as good a shooter as the X7 but will support faster manipulation techniques, etc, etc.
I'm intrigued - how many parts are you saving over an AR by going to a monolithic lower?
I just used your post, as to be directed to you. I would like to know your background, engineer, or machinist? I am both thats why i am asking.
Getting personal eh?
I spent a career in the semiconductor industry as an R&D engineer and exec, helping to build a startup from scratch to >$1B before retiring at 49 and have been building audio gear, robots and now guns since then. My background in machining is too pathetic to mention but I like making things. Nathan Roads is my partner in crime and makes what I design, but it's a two-way street there. My actual experience in firearms is less than most of you reading this but then again, 24/7 for a couple of years gets you pretty far if you're intense, ask lots of questions, are very skeptical and require physics based understanding for everything.
Hope that satisfies some of the curiosity out there but let's leave it at this point (PM me if you want to talk about working at NGA).
I'm intrigued - how many parts are you saving over an AR by going to a monolithic lower?
Seems like a trick question because the answer is so obvious...
Gone are the castle nut and receiver endplate, oh, and the separate buffer tube which integrates into the lower receiver. The buffer and spring are still there and the buffer retaining pin and spring also plus there's a set screw to hold it in place from the bottom now. There's no assembly, no chance the tube will rotate loose and no need to stake it to make sure it doesn't. The main reasons for integrating are to increase the strength, improve the alignment of buffer tube to the upper receiver bore (which may make things smoother, we'll see) and allow for some design leeway. On paper the production economics look nearly even with separate components but the quality is entirely under our control and to our spec.
eta - Just in case you're getting ready to make fun of the integration of the buffer tube into the lower receiver as not important, too expensive, risky for harming the lower receiver (which is the ATF registered gun after all!), etc, etc... just keep in mind that NGA is not limited the same way a larger company making a mass product would be. We're experimenting and it doesn't have to be the right solution for the mainstream to still make sense for a niche AR. But you can argue without data till the cows come home so we're actually building the thing to see.
Seems like a trick question because the answer is so obvious...
Gone are the castle nut and receiver endplate, oh, and the separate buffer tube which integrates into the lower receiver. The buffer and spring are still there and the buffer retaining pin and spring also plus there's a set screw to hold it in place from the bottom now. There's no assembly, no chance the tube will rotate loose and no need to stake it to make sure it doesn't. The main reasons for integrating are to increase the strength, improve the alignment of buffer tube to the upper receiver bore (which may make things smoother, we'll see) and allow for some design leeway. On paper the production economics look nearly even with separate components but the quality is entirely under our control and to our spec.
eta - Just in case you're getting ready to make fun of the integration of the buffer tube into the lower receiver as not important, too expensive, risky for harming the lower receiver (which is the ATF registered gun after all!), etc, etc... just keep in mind that NGA is not limited the same way a larger company making a mass product would be. We're experimenting and it doesn't have to be the right solution for the mainstream to still make sense for a niche AR. But you can argue without data till the cows come home so we're actually building the thing to see.
No ulterior motive - just genuinely curious. Haven't seen anyone else propose or attempt a monolithic lower. A friend of mine had a receiver extension on an issue weapon work loose in the field due to poor staking - so thats not a theoretical problem. As you point out, a monolithic lower design would eliminate that failure point. So long as the integrated receiver extension is durable enough when 'mortared' to clear a stuck case, I can see the advantages. Whether or not it is cost effective is a whole other issue - but you aren't aiming at the budget market either.
Is that a QD mount integrated into the bottom of the lower?
ETA: And good luck. I'm glad to see this kind of innovation - if building everything to the original MILSPEC/TDP was the end-all-be-all of AR design, there wouldn't be any progress.
In my book you have 2 types of high end, or high quality AR's being produced currently...
1.) Traditional AR-15 styled rifles that are truly built to proper spec, and cut no corners.
These would be Colt, BCM, DD, and Noveske rifles.
2.) Innovative/proprietary AR-15 styled rifles that abandon to some degree the vanilla template of yesteryear and seek to push either the performance, or modularity envelope of the traditional AR-15 by incorporating completely new designs and features.
These would be LMT, KAC,.........or dare I say, NGA rifles.
I'm a LMT/KAC type of guy, maybe that's why NGA has my respect.
"It's easy to come up with new ideas; the hard part is letting go of what worked for you two years ago, but will soon be out of date."
-Roger Van Oech
I have a NGA X-7, just got a KAC SR15E3, and now I think I need a NGA X-8. I need to come see you guys soon:)
Is that a QD mount integrated into the bottom of the lower?
Yes indeed. Shouldn't interfere too much with the shooting hand either but that remains to be verified. We haven't seen many people using that QD position by the way although that's surprising.
I have a NGA X-7, just got a KAC SR15E3, and now I think I need a NGA X-8. I need to come see you guys soon:)
I think the word is "incorrigible". But seriously Chad, wait for the signal; the X8 is still mostly vaporware. It'll probably be some time in November before even the most bleeding-edge early adopters will want an X8.
warlord260
09-27-11, 03:04
Thanks for your response. I think you have some wonderful ideas, and i wish the best of luck to you.
require physics based understanding for everything.
i'm developing a gay love for you
After having my NGA X-7 for 10 months 3700 rounds with a single malfunction. I have decided to change from the Aimpoint T-1 to the Leupold 1.5x5CM-R2 to make better use of the Noveske Afghan barrel(IMO)extend the range of this rifle and use for 3-Gun. I put the T1 on my BCM L/W 14.5"middy. It just makes better sense to me. So I just snapped a 2 pics of it with the new optic. I'm going sight in the morning and then hit river and do some wolf and coyote hunting.
http://fototime.com/A04168513CC4560/standard.jpg
http://fototime.com/EF4C185745D7B89/standard.jpg
Bummer that they went out of business. I have an X7 and wish that it had a pinned AAC Brakeout to allow for suppressor use. "Immediately" and "abandoned" are pretty definitive word choices.....
I guess this is all the more reason to stick with a non-proprietary DI AR.
WEDNESDAY, MAY 2, 2012 AT 14:03
Next Generation Arms, LLC is ceasing business operations immediately.
As such, customer service ceases immediately and all obligations entered into by NGA are abandoned.
This decision wasn't made lightly, but NGA has been a money-losing proposition from inception and the investment support has run out.
Some of the ideas that were under development, such as the X8 chassis and derivatives, may still find a home elsewhere, as the intellectual property is wholly owned by the investor and is under active development.
We are sorry to disappoint our many and valued friends and supporters.
I hated to hear this. I wonder what this does to values of the NGA X-7s?
$2500+/- was the MSRP.
Sorry to hear about this, but I think this just reiterates what many of us say about pistons and new fads on the market.
If they go out of business, you will be left in the cold.
Sorry to hear about this, but I think this just reiterates what many of us say about pistons and new fads on the market.
If they go out of business, you will be left in the cold.
They are D.I. and mine has performed very well over the last year.
They are D.I. and mine has performed very well over the last year.
You missed his point. Proprietary piston kits / piston rifles are a parallel example of the same danger / possibility that has become reality in this cautionary tale.
Well I have a couple of Charles Daly Shotguns. I'm not to worried that they're no longer in business. They were made well and work well.
That said, I hate to see a good gun company go under.:(
I did think IG was referring to the X-7 as piston my mistake. The NGA X-7 lower works fine on my KAC SR15 upper.
http://fototime.com/0E8AFCE71E0D33C/standard.jpg
Well I have a couple of Charles Daly Shotguns. I'm not to worried that they're no longer in business. They were made well and work well.
That said, I hate to see a good gun company go under.:(
charles daly is in business. They're suppose to be the ones distributing the IMI tavor when the factories are built in the US.
What I was getting at is that this is a ptifall when you buy some PROPRIETARY. If all the parts are not off the shelf common, you may be screwed down the road.
They are D.I. and mine has performed very well over the last year.
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