View Full Version : Adams Arms vs. LWRC
BoringGuy45
02-18-11, 12:43
I'm going to be building a piston system soon. I'd love to get a LWRC M6A3 upper (to put on my PWA, pre-ban lower), but I don't have $2,000. So, I was looking at Adams Arms' mid-length upper, and that goes for about $700 (with the standard handguards. With a rail system, it's around $1,000).
The two systems look pretty similar; they seem to have more in common than they do with other piston systems like LMT, Stag, POF, H&K, etc. What are the pros and cons of each system head to head? Is it worth it to spend the extra grand for the LWRC? Or could I get a system that is nearly as good out of Adams and save a thousand?
Littlelebowski
02-18-11, 12:47
What benefits do you think you are getting by getting a piston AR? If you're low on cash, why not build up a Bravo Company gun and spend the savings on an optic, ammo, and a training class?
BoringGuy45
02-18-11, 13:17
I want to try a piston gun. Less cleaning time. I'm all set for accessories; plus, Bravo Company DI uppers usually cost around the same price for an Adams Arms I've found.
Littlelebowski
02-18-11, 13:18
Do you already have a gun that runs and if so, how much training do you have on it?
Rwatts62081
02-18-11, 13:31
Get the Adams Arms upper and THEN buy ammo and maybe a training class. Get the upper YOU want. Not the upper someone else thinks you should get.
Get the Adams Arms upper and THEN buy ammo and maybe a training class. Get the upper YOU want. Not the upper someone else thinks you should get.
Yeah, and don't start a thread on a forum looking for guidance. ;)
The piston on an AR will not give you any benefits. Save the $ and get a better upper. In my opinion.
Hammertime
02-18-11, 20:52
Purchase the factory upper from Adams Arms - the one with the factory-pinned gas block and Samson quad rail with the fsb cut-out (should be $900 shipped for the mid-length complete upper). Then you can spend the money you save on a T1 and some ammo. Put a few thousand rounds through the thing and if you like it, buy some more and stock up on parts (op rod/gas plug/bcg, etc).
The best thing about it is - You can change it back to DI if you don't like it and throw a FSB on it and your regular parts that you probably already have laying around
I feel like Obie Wan - "...Of course you must do what you feel is right..." :D
God bless
hammertime out
GermanSynergy
02-18-11, 21:12
Less cleaning time? Really? You can clean a DI AR upper in just a few minutes, and my experience with McPiston type AR's in classes has been less than stellar.
Seriously, invest in training classes, ammo and don't fall for the hype.
BoringGuy45
02-18-11, 21:22
Thanks for the input. I've done a bit of research and I'm going with an Adams Arms for now.
No doubt DI is tried and true, I'm just looking for something a little different. That's what makes this country great. :D
If you really have your heart set on a piston and are limited to those two choices, my vote is for the LWRCI. However, I'd suggest that you also look at the LMT MRP piston uppers. They can also be easily converted back to a very high quality DI upper when the piston allure starts to disappear.
...or you could go with one that puts the piston inside the bolt carrier
If it takes you more than 15 min to clean a DI gun, you're doing something wrong.
Why is it that when someone talks about a piston AR around here they get the, "Tenth degree" put on them. :fie: I get it. Most folks around here think that DI AR's are better. However, there are piston guns out there. Try to get over it.
Littlelebowski
02-19-11, 08:36
Why is it that when someone talks about a piston AR around here they get the, "Tenth degree" put on them. :fie: I get it. Most folks around here think that DI AR's are better. However, there are piston guns out there. Try to get over it.
Something about evidence, research, cost, all of which are readily available via the Search button.
It's much easier just to show up and tell all of the regulars what you think with no backing data I know, but the mods here are assholes in that they are sticklers for data, training, mean fail rates, available parts, pedantic stuff like that
Why is it that when someone talks about a piston AR around here they get the, "Tenth degree" put on them. :fie: I get it. Most folks around here think that DI AR's are better. However, there are piston guns out there. Try to get over it.
You're right. There is a lot of gimmicky garbage out there that thrives on consumer ignorance. And we are free to buy or not buy. But don't be surprised when you get strong advice against buying crap.
If you want a piston gun, that's what you should get. Just make sure you buy a quality weapon. I don't know much about Adams other than what I read. People seem to like them. LWRC makes quality weapons. Don't know what your use is, but definitely look into the product. I would also look into Addax and LMT. If you're unsure, take a look at some quality DI guns as well; Daniel Defense, BCM, Noveske etc Centurion Arms is, from what I hear, making one of the best top ends on the market right now. I haven't had a chance to shoot one yet, but everything I've read has been positive. Also, please consider taking some training classes. I know everyone stresses how great they are for you, which they are, but it's also much more fun to shoot with others.
Hammertime
02-19-11, 12:45
It's great to get out and try something new. You can always go back.
Right now there are a lot of new options getting good reviews -
FN Scar
H&K 416/MR556
Adams Arms
LMT
LWRC
Addax (new upper out in March)
PWS
KAC PDW is a dual piston rifle.
Ares Shrike is a piston system.
COLT is now bringing a piston to the market.
Barret REC7
Bushy ACR
I think I see a strong trend. They just keep on coming, and they'll keep getting better. One thing that would help PWS would be to get the charging handle off of the piston rod. They need to come out with a non-proprietary rail and a side charging upper, then I'll buy one.
We'll laugh at all this if the US military adopts a piston as their #1 one day. Pistons are here to stay. In fact, this is quite possibly the beginning of a paradigm shift, which always leaves the majority behind up front. The first movers have the advantage in the market and then the giants come in late.
God bless
Bryant
... Bravo Company DI uppers usually cost around the same price for an Adams Arms I've found.
BCM is a proven company making very high quality AR parts fit for any fighting gun.
You will get answers but not the answers you want hear regarding AR piston guns.
Littlelebowski is like a lot of other dudes around here who tend to give advice based on facts and experience.
If you want advice based on bias and internet fluff we can PM you the link to ARFCOM.
It's great to get out and try something new. You can always go back.
True, you can always spend three times more money based on bad advice.
In fact, this is quite possibly the beginning of a paradigm shift, which always leaves the majority behind up front. The first movers have the advantage in the market and then the giants come in late.
I would love for you to expound on this...
I have a quality DI upper and wish I had a piston upper instead. I run mine suppressed with a PRI GBCH and am tired of all of the gas in my eyes! I would go with the LWRC first, but since you can get AA cheaper I would go with that. Alot of people on here are very smart and have great advice, listen to it. BUT, at the end of the day:
-it is your money, do what YOU want with it
-You are not in a war. You will have plenty of time to clean your gun in your cozy living room
-there will always be another upper that will come out that you WISH you would have waited on
Good luck!
It's great to get out and try something new. You can always go back.
Right now there are a lot of new options getting good reviews -
FN Scar
H&K 416/MR556
Adams Arms
LMT
LWRC
Addax (new upper out in March)
PWS
KAC PDW is a dual piston rifle.
Ares Shrike is a piston system.
COLT is now bringing a piston to the market.
Barret REC7
Bushy ACR
Which of those companies have interchangeable parts based on a pre-set standard?
Piston driven guns certainly take away some fun in regards to parts availability and the tinkering and the 'frankenguns'.....
Am I to believe then that the LWRC piston AR is acceptable to even those around here??
Am I to believe then that the LWRC piston AR is acceptable to even those around here??
Maybe with the exception of Markm.
If it takes you more than 15 min to clean a DI gun, you're doing something wrong.
Absolutely not true. Its a personal thing, and I take about 45 mins to an hour on my weapon. I put at least 300 rnds down range every time I go shooting and when I go home I take my time and clean my weapon thoroughly. I have all lmt, but that doesn't mean I don't sit down and make sure my weapon is cleaned to "my" standards. And for the piston thing, I don't see any benefit going that route. In my experience the piston doesn't have much if any advantage over conventional Di system. I will have to agree with others and go with a quality build from LMT, BCM, DD etc. I would save the money for an aimpoint if you don't already have an optic.
GermanSynergy
02-19-11, 19:03
Detail cleaning is one thing, but a 15 minute job on the upper will keep it functional & running.
Absolutely not true. Its a personal thing, and I take about 45 mins to an hour on my weapon. I put at least 300 rnds down range every time I go shooting and when I go home I take my time and clean my weapon thoroughly. I have all lmt, but that doesn't mean I don't sit down and make sure my weapon is cleaned to "my" standards. And for the piston thing, I don't see any benefit going that route. In my experience the piston doesn't have much if any advantage over conventional Di system. I will have to agree with others and go with a quality build from LMT, BCM, DD etc. I would save the money for an aimpoint if you don't already have an optic.
Detail cleaning is one thing, but a 15 minute job on the upper will keep it functional & running.
I agree, because when I am done shooting at the range I run a bore snake through it so cleaning is easy when I get home. But, sometimes you just have to get into those crevices. you know the whole anal thing when it comes to cleaning a weapon; well at least they implant this in your brain as a marine.
Why is it that when someone talks about a piston AR around here they get the, "Tenth degree" put on them. :fie: I get it. Most folks around here think that DI AR's are better. However, there are piston guns out there. Try to get over it.
maybe because they are trying to be helpful?
to those that don't have much experience with something, any new thing can seem like a good idea. those with experience can tell you for sure if it is...
why do you doubt or disdain that?
I agree, because when I am done shooting at the range I run a bore snake through it so cleaning is easy when I get home. But, sometimes you just have to get into those crevices. you know the whole anal thing when it comes to cleaning a weapon; well at least they implant this in your brain as a marine.
if you want to clean your gun religiously every time you shoot, then you should. there's no reason not to and in the process you give it an examination that can discover potential problems. but it is just not a necessity with an AR.
some folks who advise against cleaning are sensitive to the bad rap that the original M16 received about reliability if not kept squeaky clean and would like for that myth to die. clean if you must. or don't. it won't matter much either way...
Robb Jensen
02-19-11, 21:31
Detail cleaning is one thing, but a 15 minute job on the upper will keep it functional & running.
Amen brother.
I have YET to see what a 'piston AR' does better than a standard 'direct impingement' AR here in the U.S. It may surface one day but I haven't seen that since shooting this platform since 1975.....but I'm optimistic. ;)
I shoot 3gun, own SBRs, own suppressed SBRs, shoot a fair amount of full auto, train in all conditions, have shot classes and matches in the rain, desert, cold etc for a few days and a few thousand rounds in a few days and work on these guns multiple everyday but take my opinion with a grain of salt since I haven't been everywhere in the world....FWIW the only gun I have that F'd up during class was an AK (Arsenal SLR-106 5.56mm AK that went back Arsenal and is fine now) YMMV but what the hell do I know? :eek: ;)
Hammertime
02-22-11, 21:30
True, you can always spend three times more money based on bad advice.
I would love for you to expound on this...
Spending 3x more money is just incorrect...
Say you want a 10.5" upper with an adj. block for shooting suppressed:
Option #1 - You quote a 10.5 Noveske light shorty switchblock adjustable block upper chrome lined with cut-out rail and standard BCG - gonna cost you $1200+. You quote an adj. piston complete upper, perhaps LWRC's M6A3 - the upper alone is like $1600+!
Option #2 - Adams Arms 11.5" Tactical Elite upper with adjustable gas block, 1x7 barrel with FSB cut-out rail and chronographed MV closer to those of 16" barrels - gonna cost you $885 shipped.
I think you could find a gas block/fsb ($50), gas tube ($13), and bcg ($130) to refit if you didn't like it and still (price-wise) best the Noveske or M6A3, which are comparable adjustable gas block choices. You should have the aforementioned parts laying around if you've fooled with ARs much. I think it's definitely worth a try on your next build.
God Bless,
Bryant
If detail cleaning makes you happy, go for it. BTDT. It's not *necessary* though.
Have you seen the pictures of Pat Rogers' Filthy 14? (about 26,000 rounds w/o cleaning).
Absolutely not true. Its a personal thing, and I take about 45 mins to an hour on my weapon. I put at least 300 rnds down range every time I go shooting and when I go home I take my time and clean my weapon thoroughly. I have all lmt, but that doesn't mean I don't sit down and make sure my weapon is cleaned to "my" standards. And for the piston thing, I don't see any benefit going that route. In my experience the piston doesn't have much if any advantage over conventional Di system. I will have to agree with others and go with a quality build from LMT, BCM, DD etc. I would save the money for an aimpoint if you don't already have an optic.
Hammertime
02-22-11, 21:56
As far as the paradigm shift idea - I'm not saying it is...I'm saying it's a possibility. Things could be changing, especially in the SBR 14.5" and under department. Why are Barrett, FN, Beretta, H&K, Colt, etc. coming out with piston systems? Why are modular/interchangeable piston systems hitting the market and growing in popularity? Why is production increasing / piston system pricing dropping due to economies of scale stemming from increased demand? Why are hundreds of companies spending millions of $ on R&D for piston systems?
I agree that there need to be some standards, but the questions remain - who/what/when/where/how?
We'll see how it all shakes out.
Bryant
LWRC for me. My M6A2 is awesome.
BoringGuy45,
Have you tried joining Ar15.com? Your questions are better suited for that forum ;)
RogerinTPA
02-22-11, 22:46
I want to try a piston gun. Less cleaning time. I'm all set for accessories; plus, Bravo Company DI uppers usually cost around the same price for an Adams Arms I've found.
This answer cracks me up EVERY SINGLE TIME IT'S USED. Is that all the over whelming reason to get a piston gun? Really? I regularly take my ARs to the 3 and 4K mark with just lube and they run just fine wet and dirty.
It is a solution in search of a problem. There is not standard upon which they are built. All pistons are not the same, have there own unique problems and deposits carbon on the other end of the gun.
The only piston I'd consider would be an HK or FN SCAR since both are built for and used by US SOF. Unless you are shooting a lot suppressed and full auto, there is no logical reason to get a piston gun other than for shits and giggles.
RogerinTPA
02-22-11, 22:56
As far as the paradigm shift idea - I'm not saying it is...I'm saying it's a possibility. Things could be changing, especially in the SBR 14.5" and under department. Why are Barrett, FN, Beretta, H&K, Colt, etc. coming out with piston systems? Why are modular/interchangeable piston systems hitting the market and growing in popularity? Why is production increasing / piston system pricing dropping due to economies of scale stemming from increased demand? Why are hundreds of companies spending millions of $ on R&D for piston systems?
I agree that there need to be some standards, but the questions remain - who/what/when/where/how?
We'll see how it all shakes out.
Bryant
Because demand drives the market. The civilian market zeros in on what the military wants (convertible multi caliber firearms, some piston, some DI) then wants to be the first on the block with said weapon. For now, the demands of the ignorant masses, everyone trying to convince everyone else they should own a piston. The masses are demanding one, for no other sound, realistic reason than "It's easier to clean" or the military is interested in developing X type weapon.:rolleyes:
RancidSumo
02-23-11, 00:15
Where are you looking that BCM uppers are running $700? Wherever it is, look elsewhere, save $200, and put that $200 into buying ammo for a class. That is what I would do.
Because demand drives the market. The civilian market zeros in on what the military wants (convertible multi caliber firearms, some piston, some DI) then wants to be the first on the block with said weapon. For now, the demands of the ignorant masses, everyone trying to convince everyone else they should own a piston. The masses are demanding one, for no other sound, realistic reason than "It's easier to clean" or the military is interested in developing X type weapon.:rolleyes:
Bit of an oversimplification but some parts are true.
Doesn't make one ignorant just because the old school guys still are proponents of DI.
Littlelebowski
02-23-11, 14:13
Bit of an oversimplification but some parts are true.
Doesn't make one ignorant just because the old school guys still are proponents of DI.
So piston is the new wave?
Littlelebowski
02-23-11, 14:43
Bass ackwards. The piston mania peaked about 2 years ago and with the advent of properly built DI guns (DD, BCM, LMT,etc, folks are wising up about expensive fads.
It's great to get out and try something new. You can always go back.
Right now there are a lot of new options getting good reviews -
FN Scar
H&K 416/MR556
Adams Arms
LMT
LWRC
Addax (new upper out in March)
PWS
KAC PDW is a dual piston rifle.
Ares Shrike is a piston system.
COLT is now bringing a piston to the market.
Barret REC7
Bushy ACR
I think I see a strong trend. They just keep on coming, and they'll keep getting better. One thing that would help PWS would be to get the charging handle off of the piston rod. They need to come out with a non-proprietary rail and a side charging upper, then I'll buy one.
We'll laugh at all this if the US military adopts a piston as their #1 one day. Pistons are here to stay. In fact, this is quite possibly the beginning of a paradigm shift, which always leaves the majority behind up front. The first movers have the advantage in the market and then the giants come in late.
God bless
Bryant
Bass ackwards. The piston mania peaked about 2 years ago and with the advent of properly built DI guns (DD, BCM, LMT,etc, folks are wising up about expensive fads.
Is it really a fad to force a piston with gas to move a carrier vs shooting gas into the chamber to do the same thing?
You will see more and more pistons as they get better and standardized, IMO.
A fad will die out ~ pistons have been in guns forever.
Littlelebowski
02-23-11, 14:56
Yes, it is a fad to slap a piston on an AR15. I'm well aware of the history of piston rifles.
Is it really a fad to force a piston with gas to move a carrier vs shooting gas into the chamber to do the same thing?
You will see more and more pistons as they get better and standardized, IMO.
A fad will die out ~ pistons have been in guns forever.
Littlelebowski
02-23-11, 14:57
So piston is the new wave?
Just bumping this one in hopes of clarification.
RogerinTPA
02-23-11, 22:51
Bit of an oversimplification but some parts are true.
For the most part, all of what I stated is true. Go to any range or gun forum, and the minute a Thread/Discussion is started on a military solicitation for some needed weaponry, the forums go ape shit trying to obtain one.
Doesn't make one ignorant just because the old school guys still are proponents of DI.
I never said that, because that's all I own...DI ARs, except for my AK variant. I guess I must be one of the old schoolers then. It isn't old school for guys and gals who know how to operate, run and effectively employ a DI gun. I would say those folks are the ones with knowledge and experience. The ones who buy and sing praise for weapons that historically fail or have no standards in which to measure are the ignorant Bubba crowd. I meant that as a term of endearment. Ignorance isn't a bad thing, just means you lack knowledge. Once it is obtained, you cease being a Bubba because now you know the difference between "fact vs fiction".
As long as there is a demand for a less accurate, more front heavy, sharper recoiling rifle, the piston will have true merit in the AR market.
The piston would be such a ridiculous idea in the U.S. civilian gun market if 99% of civilian's didn't own AR15's that had happy switches and suppressors.
Not only is the piston AR not gonna die a miserable death, but it's gonna spawn a new breed of piston popped pistols....aka, PPP's:suicide:
Usually these types of thread are a waste of everyone's time, but here goes....
As long as there is a demand for a less accurate, more front heavy, sharper recoiling rifle, the piston will have true merit in the AR market.
Honest question and I'm not arguing, just trying to get you to expound on your statement... How do you reply to people that are respected on forums such as these who say the opposite about all three of those "issues?" I ask because guys like Paulosantos has a great review of a piston gun (it happens to be an LMT, but that's not necessarily important right now).
In his review, he mentions that it's no less accurate than his DI gun, is only an ounce or two heavier, and while it does feel "different" than a DI gun, it was still a smooth shooter.
Please understand I'm not on either "side." I'm interested in building a piston gun (for a SBR) because it's different, but I'm not locked into that idea, either.
No worries, I am happy to expound upon my opinion of the piston op AR. Firstly, to each there own...normally I wouldn't have commented in this thread as it has nothing to do with me, but recently there has been a number of threads with the piston talk going on which all end up having the same dialog going on in them.
Bottom line is that the very best piston op AR will always be by it's very design less accurate...now for most and certainly all those who only shoot CL barreled D.I. carbines, the accuracy difference will never be seen or noticed more than likely. So in the end a piston starts out handicapped in the accuracy dept...no matter how slight this is in comparison to it's comparable D.I. gun.
Secondly, no brainier...more weight up front on the piston op design, thereby a piston starts out handicapped in the weight dept....no matter how insignificant those 2-3ozs. might seem, Oz's=Lb's.
Thirdly, again by the piston's nature it cannot be smoother shooting than it's comparable D.I. gun. Maybe some might not be bothered as badly or at all by a sharper recoil impulse and thereby saying that the piston is not a less smooth shooting rifle than the D.I. rifle, but doesn't change the facts. Again, we are handicapped from jump street with the piston in this dept. regardless of what an individuals tastes are. This can be scientifically measured...has been measured, and is now fact regardless of the margin of difference b/t the two.
So yes, the D.I. might not be but only a fraction more accurate, softer shooting, and lighter, but nothing changes the fact that the piston cannot ever defeat the D.I. in those categories. So what is the piston replacing this with in order for me as a buyer to want it.
The piston doesn't do anything better than the D.I., and in fact it's always gonna be at a disadvantage when compared to a D.I. It's as worthless as tits on a boar, even though tits on a boar might look cool.
The piston op system for the AR is the same thing as the aftermarket spoiler for the rice rocket crowd...they still need spoilers even though they top out at 100mph. Has nothing to do with coolness;)
ffhounddog
02-24-11, 13:23
I run my LWRC M6 suppressed. But my big question is why do they say they cost more?
I bought mine last Feb for $1350 from a LWRCi vendor for the base vender. The same price as a Colt M4 was going for at the time.
I am still minute of man with my LWRCi same as I am with my Daniel Defenese M4.
ffh
I never do say but obviously the piston op AR generally runs just as well as the D.I.
So it's not that the piston is such a junker or bad design but rather is fix for a problem they simply doesn't exist. Moreover, and spurred by the gent's post above....how the hell are these guns $3, 4, 500 more dollars than the D.I.
So I am not a total piston hater, I just cannot fathom paying more for a slightly less rifle imho.
Hammertime
02-25-11, 20:01
Bass ackwards. The piston mania peaked about 2 years ago and with the advent of properly built DI guns (DD, BCM, LMT,etc, folks are wising up about expensive fads.
Very funny...
So you are pronouncing that the DI system was "improperly built" until 2009? So from 1960-2009 how crappy was it? I'm not saying I'll forever be 100% piston only all the way - I own/have owned DI weapon systems. I'm just saying here lately, I'm all for checking/trying out the piston systems to see how I like them. So far, I like them - I like the concept, and I can't wait to see what we will have in the market in 10 years.
Wising up about expensive fads? I don't think so. More are coming, more are coming. Every major manufacturer besides a handful (noveske, larue, et. al.) has a piston or has a piston on the drawing board including all the ones I listed.
Bryant
I don't think Littlelebowski was saying that at all, just that there are so many high quality DI ARs today in addition to Colt and FN years back.
And the real issue in 10 years will be all the orphan piston designs that people hype today. You can take it to the bank that parts for DI guns will be available in 10 years if the earth is still spinning.
Charles Daly goes out of business. Sad... but ok, you still can fix your CDD-15.
Hammertime
02-25-11, 20:47
This is one of the things that makes America great - open, friendly discussion, and freedom to think and make your own opinion...and about weapon systems...and in a free market economy that lets people buy what they want, whether it's junk or not.
If we were in Libya we'd be trying to find a bigger rock to throw right now, or whatever.
You can look through my posts and see I have never stated that DI is crap or less accurate than a piston sys.
As far as accuracy goes - in my mind accuracy starts with a barrel (and a multitude of other variables), not a gas system. On some of my ARs, I can turn my gas system off and shoot 'em like a bolt gun if I want. Accuracy is a tough one because, unless you are in a controlled laboratory environment, it's the answer to a question that involves a human being in the equation. There are many different standards for accuracy, even in marksmanship with a rifle.
Accurate for what / against what standard? At what distance? Under what conditions? For what length of time? Within any particular amount of time? With what action/bullet/load/barrel/on and on? Shooting from a vise? Shooting while standing/free-handed/prone, or other? With no wind? In a high crosswind? Shooting at your hometown range, or under dynamic stress/being shot at?
A lot of those questions can only be answered by the person shooting. Everyone has different gear in their hand and ultimately the person makes the shot to hit the bullseye, not the rifle. How accurate does your rifle HAVE to be? No one can answer that but you.
Bryant
I am pretty sure the original question was to compare Adams Arms piston to the LWRCI. That being said I have always owned DI guns and I currently run a LMT MRP (DI). I did however just buy a LWRCI M6A2 10.5 IN and all I can say that so far it has run like a champ. I have no experience with Adam Arms so I can't say anything there. One good thing about LWRCI is that it already comes with top notch components. Don't let everybody tell you that the piston system isn't any good. If you want one go out and get one and thin shoot the heck out of it and decide for yourself.
Bottom line is that the very best piston op AR will always be by it's very design less accurate...now for most and certainly all those who only shoot CL barreled D.I. carbines, the accuracy difference will never be seen or noticed more than likely.
Certainly true for my skill level at the moment.
So in the end a piston starts out handicapped in the accuracy dept...no matter how slight this is in comparison to it's comparable D.I. gun.
Theoretically speaking, this makes a lot of sense. On the practical side, I'd argue it doesn't apply to a large portion of the interwebz, much like you're alluding to above.
Secondly, no brainier...more weight up front on the piston op design, thereby a piston starts out handicapped in the weight dept....no matter how insignificant those 2-3ozs. might seem, Oz's=Lb's.
A good point, and the very reason why I'm thinking of forgetting about getting a LMT MRP SBR and going with a custom barrel/monolithic build. Not because the LMT isn't a great gun, but it's roughly (based off what I can find online) about a half a pound heavier, and most of it is up front.
I do wonder how much something like a AA piston system weighs compared to a standard fixed FSP. I've never really been able to find a definitive number for an AA piston system (gas block and piston assembly).
Thirdly, again by the piston's nature it cannot be smoother shooting than it's comparable D.I. gun. Maybe some might not be bothered as badly or at all by a sharper recoil impulse and thereby saying that the piston is not a less smooth shooting rifle than the D.I. rifle, but doesn't change the facts. Again, we are handicapped from jump street with the piston in this dept. regardless of what an individuals tastes are. This can be scientifically measured...has been measured, and is now fact regardless of the margin of difference b/t the two.
Makes sense. Whether it matters to the end user is probably the more important question. One I can't answer.
So yes, the D.I. might not be but only a fraction more accurate, softer shooting, and lighter, but nothing changes the fact that the piston cannot ever defeat the D.I. in those categories. So what is the piston replacing this with in order for me as a buyer to want it.
Again, sound logic. I do think the argument could be made that buying a piston gun in addition to owning DI guns is part of "the experience." Lots of people have opinions (not just about piston setups), but sometimes experiencing "it" is part of the fun of the hobby. I guess it goes along with why do people have more than one black rifle? If a 16" BCM is a quality gun, why do you need 5 other guns of the same length from other makers, especially if they're more expensive? Because we can, of course! Hopefully you understand my tongue is in my cheek. I'm anti-smilies.
I appreciate your responses. They're far more substantiatve than I've read to date on why pistons are "bad" and DI is "good" (an oversimplification, I know) Usually the responses boil down to "...it's been proven..." or "...because I read someone else saying this..." which is why I think we have all those piston threads you mentioned.
I've been lurking on this forum for a long time, and I get a good laugh every time this piston vs. DI argument comes up. I'm just a regular Joe, not a "D-boy" , LE, or any other kind of "expert" like we have here on this forum. When I made the decision to buy my AR, I didn't have any pre-conceived notions about which system was better, etc. I just looked at the systems for what they were, and compared some rifles side by side to see which one was best. The rifles I tested were the Colt 6920, LWRC M6A2, and a Noveske N4. Using the iron sights, they all shot the same. After putting an M4S on the LWRC and the Novesky, they both shot the same. And anybody who says the DI guns have way less recoil than the piston guns are just nit picking. Freaking 5.56 guns don't have recoil, period. Looking at the features, I thought the LWRC was the superior rifle hands down. I know a little about metallurgy, and when it came to comparing the barrels, Chrome lining or Stainless Steel doesn't compare to NiCorr. And that Colt barrel....it looks like a pencil! And so what if the piston gun is heavier...I ain't in the Korengal valley, and I'm not humping 10 clicks tomorrow. I just need the rifle for self defense. And when it comes down to that famous piston vs. DI showdown, it's common sense-WHY BUY A FIREARM THAT SH*TS ITSELF EVERYTIME YOU FIRE A ROUND? I have my LWRC sitting in my safe just in case the SHTF. And I know that the LWRC barrel will handle the elements and still fire. I can submerge that thing in water, and it will still fire. And I don't have to "keep it wet with lube" after it gets filthy with carbon, because my LWRC doesn't get dirty like a DI gun. I have 4 co-workers (all DI gun owners) who said I was an idiot when I bought my LWRC. I had to listen to endless preaching about the sins of piston weapons. Carrier tilt, excessive recoil, heavy weapon, etc. After that first initial trip to the range, they all of sudden had a lot of excuses why I shot better than them. After the next trip, they all meekly asked if they could shoot it. By that time, there was at least 1500 flawless rounds thru the rifle. When it came time to "clean our weapons," there was complete silence. When you clean that LWRC side by side with a DI gun, it's obvious which is the better designed system. Next thing I know, all of them are now experts on piston systems, and between the 4 of them, I now count 11 LWRC rifle purchases in the last year. And to help fund these purchases, they sold all of their DI guns.
When it comes to something like a home defense firearm, budget doesn't come into play. I want the best weapon that I can get. Say what you may about my comments. But I did my research. And choosing the LWRC over any DI gun was basic simple common sense.
Some great comments IPO. You have to understand though...........at this forum there are many "Self proclaimed experts" who can't read the title of a thread. The title is not "What is your opinion on piston Ar's" but rather it is about comparing two piston Ar systems. So........instead of answering the question, you have to hear the typical "My gun is better then Yours" diatribe along with why these folks consider themselves experts in the first place.
Go ahead now and tell me how I need to be at that other AR forum.
thopkins22
03-02-11, 08:24
Some great comments IPO. You have to understand though...........at this forum there are many "Self proclaimed experts" who can't read the title of a thread. The title is not "What is your opinion on pistion Ar's" but rather it is about comparing two piston Ar systems. So........instead of answering the question, you have to hear the typical "My gun is better then Yours" diatribe along with why these folks consider themselves experts in the first place.
Go ahead now and tell me how I need to be at that other AR forum.
To some degree that's true. He wanted to know which was a better system...or at least less of a bad idea. I've both witnessed and read about failures with the LWRC guns. I haven't read about failures with the Adams Arms kit. If forced to choose I'd still pick LWRC(sorry Mark,) because it's more of a design rather than a band aid style kit.
But I would never pick either...especially knowing what I know today.
I've shot DI guns and piston guns suppressed. There was a whole hell of a lot of gas choking me up with the pistons, so I wouldn't call it a noticeable improvement. Piston guns ARE more front heavy which is the absolute worst place to put weight on a gun. Piston guns DO have a sharper recoil impulse, at least to my shoulder. People can mouth off about how 5.56 doesn't have any recoil to begin and all that bs, but it doesn't change what I've experienced. Nobody is saying that they were on the verge of developing a flinch because of it...but that it was noticeably different.
You own an LWRC or Adams Arms kit? That's awesome, I hope you like it, shoot the piss out of it, and that it runs great for you. I used to think I needed one, and then I actually got to compare them firsthand to DI guns. Not only did I decide it wasn't an improvement, I decided they were detrimental to things I wanted to do.
Not one piston thread has gone the way the OP has wanted in years on this forum. That's because people don't want to see someone make what they would deem to be a mistake.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70019
thopkins22
03-02-11, 08:25
I've been lurking on this forum for a long time, and I get a good laugh every time this piston vs. DI argument comes up. I'm just a regular Joe, not a "D-boy" , LE, or any other kind of "expert" like we have here on this forum. When I made the decision to buy my AR, I didn't have any pre-conceived notions about which system was better, etc. I just looked at the systems for what they were, and compared some rifles side by side to see which one was best. The rifles I tested were the Colt 6920, LWRC M6A2, and a Noveske N4. Using the iron sights, they all shot the same. After putting an M4S on the LWRC and the Novesky, they both shot the same. And anybody who says the DI guns have way less recoil than the piston guns are just nit picking. Freaking 5.56 guns don't have recoil, period. Looking at the features, I thought the LWRC was the superior rifle hands down. I know a little about metallurgy, and when it came to comparing the barrels, Chrome lining or Stainless Steel doesn't compare to NiCorr. And that Colt barrel....it looks like a pencil! And so what if the piston gun is heavier...I ain't in the Korengal valley, and I'm not humping 10 clicks tomorrow. I just need the rifle for self defense. And when it comes down to that famous piston vs. DI showdown, it's common sense-WHY BUY A FIREARM THAT SH*TS ITSELF EVERYTIME YOU FIRE A ROUND? I have my LWRC sitting in my safe just in case the SHTF. And I know that the LWRC barrel will handle the elements and still fire. I can submerge that thing in water, and it will still fire. And I don't have to "keep it wet with lube" after it gets filthy with carbon, because my LWRC doesn't get dirty like a DI gun. I have 4 co-workers (all DI gun owners) who said I was an idiot when I bought my LWRC. I had to listen to endless preaching about the sins of piston weapons. Carrier tilt, excessive recoil, heavy weapon, etc. After that first initial trip to the range, they all of sudden had a lot of excuses why I shot better than them. After the next trip, they all meekly asked if they could shoot it. By that time, there was at least 1500 flawless rounds thru the rifle. When it came time to "clean our weapons," there was complete silence. When you clean that LWRC side by side with a DI gun, it's obvious which is the better designed system. Next thing I know, all of them are now experts on piston systems, and between the 4 of them, I now count 11 LWRC rifle purchases in the last year. And to help fund these purchases, they sold all of their DI guns.
When it comes to something like a home defense firearm, budget doesn't come into play. I want the best weapon that I can get. Say what you may about my comments. But I did my research. And choosing the LWRC over any DI gun was basic simple common sense.
I read three words before deciding to say screw it. If you can't decide what constitutes a paragraph, just randomly hitting enter would be an improvement. For you too... http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70019
Again, can we stick to the title of the thread. I even agree that DI is better then piston, (in a AR that is) but I am still interested in any differences in these two piston designs.
thopkins22
03-02-11, 08:40
I've both witnessed and read about failures with the LWRC guns. I haven't read about failures with the Adams Arms kit. If forced to choose I'd still pick LWRC(sorry Mark,) because it's more of a design rather than a band aid style kit.
The Adams Arms kit clamps on...something that doesn't strike many as a very good idea with DI guns, much less on something with a reciprocating mass that will be pounding against the gas block.
Thank you. Now we are getting to some good info. I hope to hear more.
I know its not LWRC or Adams, but the price is still the same. I have a LMT MRP piston, its been 100% reliable with the 1000 rounds fired since I bought it about 6 months ago. I have found the same uppers on the exchange here for about $1000 like new. The best part is if you realize you dont like the piston system, you can switch to DI easily. You can swap bbls and gas systems to suit your needs. I have to say though the pistons are no doubt heavier, but its still a great gun.
wetidlerjr
03-05-11, 05:24
The Adams Arms kit clamps on...something that doesn't strike many as a very good idea with DI guns, much less on something with a reciprocating mass that will be pounding against the gas block.
Can you cite instances of failures in gas piston guns due to the clamp-on feature ? I am very interested in learning about failures of AR piston systems. Thanks ! :D
I have three DI AR's (BCM, RRA, Busy), two AKs (SAR-1, SAR-2), and was looking for a new toy. I bought an Adams Arms factory mid length upper and put it on a CMMG lower I had laying around. Why??? Because I wanted to. Lots of fun and easier to clean up.
The factory Adams Arms gas block is pinned on - only the aftermarket kits are clamp on.
If you want it, get it.
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