View Full Version : Optics recommendation
I know these thread always bring a certain "not this crap again" but I've tried to do some background to save everyone some time.
I have a Remington 700 PSS in 308.
I would like to set it up for long range precision shooting.
Most ranges around here are limited to 200 yards, with a few that can go to 500-600. (I know not really long range shooting, but I'm trying to deal with reality here).
Most shooting will thus be inside 200 yards. I know the rule of thumb is scope=rifle for cost, thus my budget is $1000 or less.
What I need is models to avoid, models to consider.
I'd like to do mil-dot reticule, not a fan of BDC but I have limited experience with either. My perspective is that the BDC is "fixed" and if I find it highly likely that different loads will not follow the BDC--thus it is better to go Mil-dot. I am open to correction.
Also is there any consideration to the type of mounting? Certain rings/mounting height?
With my limited range I was thinking 10X max mag or less, possibly a variable scope. I'd like it to be rugged, as I am of the opinion that even though most shooting is at the range, a trip to the wilderness won't make it go bottom up. I know some of the big names like Leupold, but not many others that seem to come up here.
The BDC is nothing more than an elevation turret with marks to match a certain bullet trajectory. These marks are nothing more than a suggestion, a rapid reference. When I bought a Leupold sniper scope so many years ago, I wish I had understood this concept more clearly and would have gotten the model with a BDC elevation turret instead of the conventional turret
Here is a great write-up in my opinion. They liked the Zeiss. Still, if you aren't going to shoot over 200 yards, then anything will probably do. Even a non-variable 4 power scope.
http://www.americanhunter.org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-6/2009611-retilces.pdf
Snipers Hide will have more posts on precision optics than you will ever want to read. There are a few mid priced scopes that are reported to work within your budget.
Their custom search engine:
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=010955838166721108978:qcbx5qqy10o&hl=en
I'm certainly not an expert, but I have been studying long-range precision shooting for a few years now. I just finished up my first class with Vern Harrison of Central Virginia Tactical last Fall.
I would say you are certainly on the right track thus far. The Remington 700 in 308 Winchester is a great start. I have one myself.
As for the scope, you are also on the right track in first considering the type of ballistic system you want to study. What I have learned through my experience is that you really have five options;
1. A mil-scale reticle with BDC adjustments
2. A mil-scale reticle with MOA adjustments
3. A mil-scale reticle with MRAD adjustments
4. An MOA reticle with MOA adjustments
5. A BDC reticle with any one of the above adjustments.
I decided on option #3. I learned that mil-scale type reticles (Mil-Dot for example) are the most plentiful and universal. I also decided on MRAD adjustments because I learned they are essentially the same units of measure as a mil-scale reticle. In this way, the reticle and adjustment system can "communicate" more effectively than with a mis-matched system like option #2.
I also agree with you that a universal measurement system like the mil-scale reticle is much more flexible than a BDC type system.
I happen to have a bit of a instructional presentation on the mil-scale system that I put together for a friend of mine. If you PM me your e-mail, I'd be happy to send you a copy. If nothing else, it will certainly spark some new, yet specific questions for you.
Regardless, the scopes I would recommend in your price range include;
1. Vortex PST
2. Leupold Mark 4
3. Bushnell Elite Tactical
4. Weaver Tactical
5. Super Sniper
I would also advise that you stay away from the temptation to buy the less expensive Millet and Falcon tactical scopes. Although they look good on paper, they are hit-and-miss quality wise.
Good luck. It is an exciting journey!
Yes, mounting. The cheapest I've found that I would trust are steel Weaver bases with Warne rings. That would be $50 total. However with a $1,000 budget, maybe a nice rail like Seekins or at least check out the various ones under $100 that EGW offers. For rings I like Warne, but Seekins again should be looked at. So now that would be $200 for mounting and $800 for glass. If you want to spend more on mounting, there's Badger.
I do not have sweet glass like $800 worth, but have looked through my buddy's Vortex and seen it perform in the field, and will second the Viper PST recommendation.
Snipers Hide will have more posts on precision optics than you will ever want to read.
I second this. Another good place to learn about precision optics in various price ranges:
http://opticsthoughts.com/index.php
Yet another:
http://www.opticstalk.com/topic22786_post299767.html#299767
FYI, opticstalk is hosted by SWFA.
Belmont31R
02-21-11, 17:33
Im not a fan, generally, of BDC reticles because its set in stone, and you have to have the exact setup/combo the BDC is calibrated to for accuracy. The ACOG BDC's generally work well because they are only made for 2 guns and 1 type of ammo in a military application where theres going to be little variation from that spec.
BDC turrets don't matter much to me, either, because like the reticle they demand you have the exact setup they are calibrated for.
Even if you have the exact setup they don't take into account weather conditions, elevation, ect.
Its far more flexible to just have a general reticle and turrets...either mil or moa. Whichever one you prefer. Ive found mils to be easier to use.
For me I just spend the range time shooting various distances, and writing down what does what. For instance shooting MK262 ammo out of an 18" barrel at 500 yards means 2.8 mils (28 clicks). The reticle has mil graduations. Im not tied to a particular setup, ammo, weather conditions, ect. If I wanted to do hold overs instead of dialing the turret I simply set the turret to zero, and I could hold 2.8 mils high at 500.
Also with a standard reticle I can spot shots, and say 'that was 1 mil left and .5 mils high'. I make that adjustment on the turret or change my hold over to compensate. If you have a BDC reticle theres no easy way to do that since you probably won't know how far exactly the graduations are apart.
When I put together my precision rifle a year ago I went with the SWFA SS 10x, rear focus. It is a $300 scope and it wasn't a bad way to go. I am able to make center mass hits on steel at 800 yds in varied wind conditions. I haven't had a chance to shoot at 1,000 yet but have the elevation to do it.
I'd suggest a good base & rings to start with. Figure $300 for the set (I went with Badger). If you want to go lower end, look at the Burris XTR bases & rings.
That said, I've done some shooting and taken a class and I'm ready to upgrade now my scope now. I'm leaning heavily towards the Nightforce F1 with the new MLR2 reticle. The price on that one is a little over double your budget.
One thing I've noticed over the last year is that I really like First Focal Plane Scopes, milled reticles (Leupold TMR, the new Nightforce MLR2) and .1 mil adjustments. I've learned this through shooting, looking through others scopes & a little bit of reading online.
The way I see it, you have a couple options.
1 - Buy low end, shoot now, upgrade later. SWFA SS fixed 10.
2 - Buy mid range, shoot now, upgrade later. Vortex PSS, used Leupold Mark 4.
3 - Save money, go big, shoot later. Nightforce, US Optics, Schmidt & Bender, Hensoldt.
Thank you for all the helpful info. It may be as while as I have lots of reading to do but I will keep you posted
uscbigdawg
02-26-11, 15:39
TXBob - Was in your shoes a couple of years ago. With a $1k budget, I'll tell you that you have a ton of options.
Give a hard look to the Vortex PST 4-16x or 6-24x as they offer a lot of features that the major scope manufacturers charge a lot of money for. For a FFP scope and mil/mil or MOA/MOA adjustments in a nice clean hash reticle (fewer obstructions that a mil-dot and can range better) you're in for less than $1k.
I have a friend that's a monster scope dealer, so if there's anything I can help with, just holler.
Rich
arizona98tj
02-27-11, 13:14
Glock24's comments were right on regarding optics. x2 on what he said.
I recently installed a new optic on my new .308 Savage 10 FCP HS-Precision.
After doing a lot of reading, I came across a good deal on a Bushnell Elite 4200 and decided to give a try. Front focal plain, illuminated mil-dot reticle and .1 mil turrets. I opted for a 6-24x50mm. I'm using a 20 MOA base from EGW and Burris XTR rings. I spent a few extra $$ and picked up a scope ring alignment and lapping kit for the install.
There are lots to choose from.....the above it working nicely for me. Good luck on your project.
Give a hard look to the Vortex PST 4-16x or 6-24x as they offer a lot of features that the major scope manufacturers charge a lot of money for. For a FFP scope and mil/mil or MOA/MOA adjustments in a nice clean hash reticle (fewer obstructions that a mil-dot and can range better) you're in for less than $1k.
Ditto
TXBob, not sure where in Texas you are but if you are around Austin you can take a look at my Vortex Viper PST 4x16 FFP mil/mil when it finally comes in (soon I hope).
Lone_Ranger
01-10-12, 12:46
One thing I've noticed over the last year is that I really like First Focal Plane Scopes, milled reticles (Leupold TMR, the new Nightforce MLR2) and .1 mil adjustments. I've learned this through shooting, looking through others scopes & a little bit of reading online.
Don't want to hijack the OP's thread, but I'm looking at a similar situation. Planning on taking a long range rifle course this summer. Going to be using a Remington 700 (.308). I pretty much have it narrowed down to the Leupold Mark 4, 3.5-10x40mm M3. I'm looking at two options right now.
1. Mil Dot or TMR?
2. Illuminated reticle or Front Focal Plane?
From reading some of the other threads here, and on other forums. The TMR seems to be the more popular, for ease of use.
Some people recommend the FFP, because you can estimate range in any magnification. Some people swear by the FFP. Then others say it isn't necessary.
But, if I'm understanding correctly, the FFP doesn't do as well in low lighting, as the second, or rear focal plane. Also, I'm thinking I'd prefer the illuminated reticle, regular cross hairs are hard to see if the target is dark, or in the shadows.
1. Mil Dot or TMR?
2. Illuminated reticle or Front Focal Plane?
From reading some of the other threads here, and on other forums. The TMR seems to be the more popular, for ease of use.
Some people recommend the FFP, because you can estimate range in any magnification. Some people swear by the FFP. Then others say it isn't necessary.
But, if I'm understanding correctly, the FFP doesn't do as well in low lighting, as the second, or rear focal plane. Also, I'm thinking I'd prefer the illuminated reticle, regular cross hairs are hard to see if the target is dark, or in the shadows.
Going Mil/Mil right out of the gate is the easiest. We're converting over to all Mil and it'd have been easier just to start there in the first place.
FFP if you're planning on milling targets and shooting an unknown distances. I just dial my scope to 10 power and never change it anyway. I'm used to a fixed 10X scope.
Illuminated reticle is largely useless in my experience. If you can't see the reticle.... you're having a hard time seeing the target. And when you turn on some light in the scope, you can see even LESS of the target.
My budget for the optics for my first bolt gun started off as much less than $1000, but I ended up with a scope, rings and bases for right around $1000. As mentioned above, there are a LOT of options that are available to you with your budget.
Again, this is my first bolt gun, but I'll share what I went with:
Vortex Viper PST FFP 4-16x50 with Leupold MK4 medium rings and 20 MOA base. Total cost for that was about $950. I got the MRAD version after doing a bunch of research and a few posts on here and a couple other forums. I could have gone with rings and bases that were a little cheaper though.
I have found that I like the mil/mil and FFP of this scope. For now, I just have to remember things as multiples of 0.36". That is until I get more practice in the use of the reticle and turrets.
I've found that the glass on the Viper PST is quite clear. At least clear enough in the conditions that I will be shooting in. I won't be taking this rifle hunting or anywhere where it will be beaten up, so that wasn't too high on my list of considerations.
The scope also has an illuminated reticle, but I haven't really been able to use it. During the day, I can't see the illumination even with clear lenses. I've played around with it in the evening and at night around my condo, but I can't say that I really would NEED an illuminate reticle for my use.
As far as range conditions, my range is sounds similar to yours. Fixed paper target stands at 50 and 100 yards and metal targets anwhere from 240 out to around 450 yards. There's a target stand at 200 yards, but it's a pain to retrieve your targets as the ENTIRE range has to stop shooting for you to retrieve the stand. That includes about 40 stalls on the rifle range, 20 or so stalls in the pistol target range and about 20 or so stalls on the pistol silhouette range.
Anyways, the 4-16 power is plenty for the range of distances that I'll be shooting at my shooting range. I will eventually take this rifle to the local rifle matches where they shoot at 200, 400 and 600 yards. I just wish I had wide open spaces like some of the other posters here have access to.
I've tested or owned most scopes worth owning. Under 1k l would get in no particular order
First choices - Weaver tac 3-15ffp, Bushnell Elite ffp 3-12, Vortex pst ffp 4-16. A Slight edge given to the pst and weaver for better reticles, the bushy only has a standard milldot.
Second choices- Sightron SIII series 6-24 moa2 reticle (only available in sfp but does have matching turrets) Leupold vx3, Zeiss.
BOOSTjunkie
01-12-12, 23:02
schmidt and bender pmII
arizona98tj
01-14-12, 10:03
I posted on this thread some 11 months ago, shortly after purchasing my first .308 Win chambered rifle and Bushnell ffp 4200 Elite optic (http://www.stu-offroad.com/firearms/karsten/karsten-6.jpg).
Last month, I completed and my first precision rifle class. Several months before the class, I switched the optic to a mil/mil Vortex Viper PST ffp 4-16 and have zero regrets in doing so. Aside from the great glass, I really enjoy the turrets. The ability to put a zero stop on the elevation turret is great. I watched others in the course counting clicks to find their zero when they lost track. Not me....just turn the elevation down to the zero stop and back up a few clicks to the zero mark.
Tracking was excellent as we ran box drills. The last shot was touching my starting shot in the bull when all was done. For ranging targets, the FFP reticle worked well. While this class found me a noobie at the ranging game, I checked my calcs using my Zeiss RF and was glad to see my numbers so close.
For the price, I believe the Viper PST is a quality optic and worth consideration if you are in the market.
The zero stop feature of the PST is nice, and for anyone with a Bushnell it's super easy to make your own zero stop by stacking something like nylon washers that fit snugly in the elevation turret cap.
Canonshooter
02-16-12, 20:33
When I put together my precision rifle a year ago I went with the SWFA SS 10x, rear focus. It is a $300 scope and it wasn't a bad way to go. I am able to make center mass hits on steel at 800 yds in varied wind conditions. I haven't had a chance to shoot at 1,000 yet but have the elevation to do it.
The way I see it, you have a couple options.
1 - Buy low end, shoot now, upgrade later. SWFA SS fixed 10.
2 - Buy mid range, shoot now, upgrade later. Vortex PSS, used Leupold Mark 4.
3 - Save money, go big, shoot later. Nightforce, US Optics, Schmidt & Bender, Hensoldt.
Just a note, the newer SWFA SS HD 10x42 (http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P50717.aspx) ($800) is in another league compared to the older (or even current) $300 version. It appears by all accounts to be one hell of a scope for $$, and highly regarded. I'll be using one on my .308 700 SPS Tac build.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1552167&page=1
Bushnell Elite Tactical for the 1k range. Got one, dig it.
The Surgeon
02-16-12, 22:28
Most scopes in your price range are going to be good, not really a big worry there.
Scope I would look at: Vortex Viper PST 6.5-24x50mm; Sightron, Leupold. In that order. I like the Vortex best of all.
If you want mils make sure you match the turrets with the reticle, in this case you want to get a mil/mil system.
Gutshot John
02-17-12, 00:50
Given what you've described a Pride-Fowler RR-800 might be a good choice for you.
Reticle is meant to be used with a variety of loads that fall within a BC and Velocity Range though you'll still have to dope them out at range just like you would any mil-dot. No spinning turrets and kind of the best worlds of BDC and mil-dot. Simple and reliable.
Price range is well under $1000 and is maybe one of the best values on the market. It's non-traditional and so doesn't have a huge following but those that use them a lot really like them.
wilsoncombatrep
02-20-12, 08:55
To the OP....if you are in the Dallas area, drive down to SWFA and they will have all of the scopes discussed here in this thread( except for the NF) for you to look at/thru.....
I used several "lower cost scopes" before settling on NF F1's, but there weren't as many options then as there are now......with your needs and budget, I would look hard at the SWFA SS line....if they would have had some of the options that they have now, when I was shopping, I might well be shooting SS's.
http://swfa.com/default.aspx
Hunting_Zombies
02-21-12, 23:33
To the OP....if you are in the Dallas area, drive down to SWFA and they will have all of the scopes discussed here in this thread( except for the NF) for you to look at/thru.....
I used several "lower cost scopes" before settling on NF F1's, but there weren't as many options then as there are now......with your needs and budget, I would look hard at the SWFA SS line....if they would have had some of the options that they have now, when I was shopping, I might well be shooting SS's.
http://swfa.com/default.aspx
+1 on SWFA. The turrets have great postive audible clicks. They have great customer service too! I
Canonshooter
02-22-12, 09:55
To the OP....if you are in the Dallas area, drive down to SWFA and they will have all of the scopes discussed here in this thread( except for the NF) for you to look at/thru.....
I used several "lower cost scopes" before settling on NF F1's, but there weren't as many options then as there are now......with your needs and budget, I would look hard at the SWFA SS line....if they would have had some of the options that they have now, when I was shopping, I might well be shooting SS's.
http://swfa.com/default.aspx
I wish I lived close enough to SWFA to do that!
I have their SS HD 10x42 (http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-10x42-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P50717.aspx) ($800.00) inbound from SWFA, along with a Leupold Mark 4 base and Seekins rings (about $240.00 total). Here are my thoughts/reason for what I selected (and FWIW);
Scope
I want something well built, reliable and that has received good reviews from a variety of sources. Beyond that, features that are important to me are (1) quality glass; (2) mil/mil reticle/turret adjustments; (3) parallax adjustment; (4) reasonable weight/size and (5) reasonable price.
Things that are NOT important to me include (1) variable focal length (I end using using the highest magnification 99% of the time) and (2) reticle illumination (never use it, more weight, one more thing to break).
For the recreational purposes that I intend to use my rifle for, the SWFA SS HD 10X42 seemed like the best bet. It has all of the qualities I'm looking for and non that I consider unimportant. I admit that I'm a simple "meat and potatoes" kind of guy, but since I am picky about my meat and potatoes, I think this scope will suit me just fine.
Base
I wanted a one piece base due to the fact that the Remington receivers are not perfectly flat. After much research, I plan on bedding the base to the receiver, based on how it looks once all the pieces are here and I can do some test fitting.
I prefer a steel base for its strength.
Though an MOA incline is not a major concern for me (the SWFA scope has enough internal adjustment for a .308 out to 1000 yards), having some may prove handy.
A "recoil lug" on the bottom of the base seems like a good idea, but I wonder if it will make full contact without bedding it due to machining tolerances? I will probably NOT use release agent and bond the base to to the receiver anyway to take some load off the screws.
I decided I wanted a base without the rail extension in the front. I certainly don't need it with the scope I'm using, and I like the cleaner look without it.
Based on this, the Leupold was my choice for the following reason;
1. no front extension
2. moderate 15 MOA incline
3. steel construction
4. no recoil lug but I'm bonding to the receiver anyway
Rings
I was going to use the Leupold Mark 4 "medium" bases which have a height of .84" (top of rail to ring centerline), but I ended up ordering the Seekins low rings (.82") for the slightly lower height and clean look. I like that they are serialized too.
Because of the varmint/light-tactical B&C 2958 (http://www.stockysstocks.com/servlet/the-185/bell-carlson-2958-tactical/Detail) stock I'm using, I wanted to keep the scope as low as possible. Since the scope has a (relatively small) 42mm objective, I think the low rings should work out fine.
If you subscribe to "the optics/mount should represent 50% of the total cost" theory, it looks like the package I have selected fits that too (not sure if that's important).
I hope someone finds this info useful. Like most of you, I spend a lot of time researching these details to come up with a combination that best fits my needs/likes/budget. I will post some pics of this build in a few weeks when it's done.
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