View Full Version : FailZero Bolt Question/Problem?
Freerunner
02-22-11, 13:45
I finally received my new BCG from Fail Zero today. The finish looks great and is smooth in every area. The only problem is that the Bolt is very stiff going back and forth in the Carrier. I tried putting it in two different AR's I have, and it is really hard to pull the charging handle back and forth. In fact, the bolt will not go into battery while riding the charging handle forward, I have to pull it back and let it go (this is being done with no ammo in the gun). (side note: The carrier is running smooth back and forth in the gun, it is just the bolt that is stiff.) I also ordered a spare bolt to go along with the BCG kit, and the spare bolt is having the same problem. I also tried putting the EXO coated bolt in a normal carrier and it has the same problems. The dang EXO coated bolt just seems to be very tight no matter what I do. Has anyone here had this problem with their FailZero bolt when they first received them? Do I just need to run some ammo through it to make it more smooth, or will it ruin my gun if the bolt is too stiff? I have spent about an hour moving the bolt back and forth inside the carrier and it has seemed to smooth out a bit, but is still stiff. Will this go away after firing some rounds through it, or should I send it back for a different one? Thanks.
Tis' normal, new gas rings plus the plating..makes the parts a little stiff. Make sure your headspace is ok & go shoot a few hundred rnds.& everything will seat nicely.
FZ has a place here in the Industry Forums/Manufacturers/FailZero:
http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=107
Good place to check out if you've not done so already.
fivefivesix
02-22-11, 14:54
have you oiled the gas rings to help them along
Freerunner
02-22-11, 15:05
have you oiled the gas rings to help them along
Yes. The bolt is still really stiff. Again, I have not shot the gun with the FailZero BCG yet, but it is very stiff when actuating the charging handle (and when manipulating it by hand). I am a little afraid to try using this BCG if it is too tight, but maybe it is okay?
Is it imperative to check the head spacing before use? What will happen if head-spacing is off?
Just go shoot it. Stiffness in new BCGs is normal.
I just got a boron BCG thru Spikes, and it is definitely a bit stiff. However, I put some Slip EWL on it and that made a big difference. I'd suggest lubing it lightly, at least initially, and let it wear in a bit -- how awful, an excuse to go shooting for break-in.
Ignore the head spacing remark. You have no need to worry about the head spacing. I wish people would stop that BS.
Anyway. The stiffness is normal and you will be fine. My SR15 upper will not seat into full battery if I too ride the charging handle. This is normal. If the bolt is too loose that is bad. You want a stiff bolt. I'm sure it is not as stiff as you imagine it to be because you are comparing it to an older bolt and carrier.
If you pull the charging handle all the way back and let her go, as long as the BCG seats correctly and all the way forward, then you are good to go. No worries.
Don't listen to Bantee on the head space. He has no idea what he is talking about :fie:. End users do not need to worry about HS as they are not (read should not) be messing with the barrel extension. The manufacturer handles that.
Hey Burt, you a cowboy shooter?
I agree with you that this bolt should be stiff because if it isn't the rings are worn out, or so I've been told by people who should know. I also agree that the manufacturer should have checked out the headspacing and if this is the bolt that came with the gun, it probably was headspaced. However, if the bolt is aftermarket, it should be checked, it's very simple to do with a cartridge as long as the firiing pin is removed 'cause you know what assumptions do. If the bolt closes and locks, it fits. If it doesn't, time for a gun smith. Happy trails!
PS: the problem with incorrect headspacing is that you can jack chamber pressure sky high.
Evil Bert's probably right..60,000 + psi detonating inches from your face..skip the headspace..what's the worst that could happen??:rolleyes:
Ok. For all of you who say headspace isn't important answer this question. The winner will get a free accessory for a firearm.
Why do we set headspace in the M2 .50 caliber?
Why do we perform yearly inspections of small arms and as part of that check we use a headspace gage?
Why do the military TM's warn you not to swap bolt assemblies from different weapons without checking the headspace?
Freerunner,
Would you care to elaborate on your experience with the AR platform?
The stiff bolt is normal. You need to apply some lube to it, regardless of whatever magical unicorn coating has been applied.
You should not be riding the bolt forward at all. Let it slam forward as it was designed to do. Riding forward will breed bad practices that you will continue when you aren't supposed to.
I finally received my new BCG from Fail Zero today. The finish looks great and is smooth in every area. The only problem is that the Bolt is very stiff going back and forth in the Carrier. I tried putting it in two different AR's I have, and it is really hard to pull the charging handle back and forth. In fact, the bolt will not go into battery while riding the charging handle forward, I have to pull it back and let it go (this is being done with no ammo in the gun). (side note: The carrier is running smooth back and forth in the gun, it is just the bolt that is stiff.) I also ordered a spare bolt to go along with the BCG kit, and the spare bolt is having the same problem. I also tried putting the EXO coated bolt in a normal carrier and it has the same problems. The dang EXO coated bolt just seems to be very tight no matter what I do. Has anyone here had this problem with their FailZero bolt when they first received them? Do I just need to run some ammo through it to make it more smooth, or will it ruin my gun if the bolt is too stiff? I have spent about an hour moving the bolt back and forth inside the carrier and it has seemed to smooth out a bit, but is still stiff. Will this go away after firing some rounds through it, or should I send it back for a different one? Thanks.
Freerunner
02-23-11, 00:37
Freerunner,
Would you care to elaborate on your experience with the AR platform?
The stiff bolt is normal. You need to apply some lube to it, regardless of whatever magical unicorn coating has been applied.
You should not be riding the bolt forward at all. Let it slam forward as it was designed to do. Riding forward will breed bad practices that you will continue when you aren't supposed to.
I have been shooting firearms my whole life, and the AR-15 has been one of the main weapons I have shot a lot. I have never built an AR from scratch, but I have bought uppers and lowers and BCG and put them together. I know that new BCG's are a little stiff at the beginning, but this one seems to be extra stiff. When I pull back on the charging handle, it takes a lot of muscle to get the bolt to unlock and start to move backwards.
I also know not to ride the charging handle, but I can do this on my other AR without ammo and have them go into battery. The EXO coated BCG will not go into battery unless I pull it back all the way and let her rip. I also noticed that the extractor in the EXO coated bolt is really easy to push back. My other bolts are very stiff. It seems that they may use soft extractor springs, any experiences with this? Thanks for all of the reply's.
fivefivesix
02-23-11, 00:38
Headspace on the 5o is set as its part of the timing of a controlled explosion. The gun will blow up as the rounjd is being detonated without it being chambered
I know how headspace and timing works and why. I have rebuilt at least 30 M2's during my time in service to include the gun mounts.
Exactly how will the round blow up unless you pull the trigger?
The M249, M240 and M4 also have headspace gages and are used in the inspection process.
Headspace on the 5o is set as its part of the timing of a controlled explosion. The gun will blow up as the rounjd is being detonated without it being chambered
fivefivesix
02-23-11, 00:55
ruptured primer blowing a jet of gas back at your face.
jamming the weapon
Freerunner, I also have a FZ bolt in my AR..which is now a year old, my bolt came with the blue spring insert, which I have since replaced with the black spring insert & Crane o-ring from Bravo Co. It may be worthwhile to check out your extractor setup if it doesn't reliably eject. Hope this helps.
fivefivesix
02-23-11, 01:25
i just dont see paying 250 for a fail zero bcg then worry if its gonna work. or having to replace extracter springs etc. 130 for my dd bcg
or 130 for a bcm and notworry about it and you dont have to replace anything.
op send it back and buy a bcm from GandRtactical
Lmao!! Agreed, it's a nice bolt..but it isn't that nice. I didn't realize the spring insert was blue..til' I already owned it! Lol. My BCM bolt isn't as "pretty" but it works just as well & didn't need any spring upgrades...lesson learned!:D
BufordTJustice
02-23-11, 02:52
My Spike's/FZ BCG also exhibited this same stiffness and it is normal. After 200rds of Federal XM193, it's about the same as my CMT FA BCG. I use McFarland gas rings from G&R in both of them and this, alone, makes the bolt more resistant to motion.
Either way, just lube it and shoot it. :)
Ok. For all of you who say headspace isn't important answer this question. The winner will get a free accessory for a firearm.
Why do we set headspace in the M2 .50 caliber?
Why do we perform yearly inspections of small arms and as part of that check we use a headspace gage?
Why do the military TM's warn you not to swap bolt assemblies from different weapons without checking the headspace?
I know the answer but I'm disqualified as I know headspace is important
ColdDeadHands
02-23-11, 06:32
Ok. For all of you who say headspace isn't important answer this question. The winner will get a free accessory for a firearm.
Why do we set headspace in the M2 .50 caliber? Because the weapon can explode in your face if it checks no-go?!
Why do we perform yearly inspections of small arms and as part of that check we use a headspace gage? Because the weapon can explode in your face if it checks no-go?!
Why do the military TM's warn you not to swap bolt assemblies from different weapons without checking the headspace?Because the weapon can explode in your face if it checks no-go?!:eek:
To compare the necessity of head-space check, or consequences of excessive headspace, in a .50 M2 with AR15 is disingenuous and stupid.
Especially with regard to putting another NEW bolt in an AR15 format weapon of quality manufacture. I suppose if one had an old excessively worn bolt and mated it to an excessively used barrel(extension) you could have issue.
In my limited experience covering millions of rds and hundreds of working government weapons, the barrel is toast long before headspace is an issue in an M4 varient. Personally I put a new bolt in every 5-8K, w/o checking headspace, on a duty weapon.
The above is my experience, not guidance. I cannot guess, in the commercial market, how many piece of shit, no QA/QC, random metallurgy, poorly assembled AR's are out and about.
Have been to a couple lego assembling courses also:
HK mp5/g3/9x/usp/416/GMG/M320
MK-19
M2 and M3 (.50) open bolt conversion mod
60/81mm US mortar
Colt M4/M16 series
FN m16, mk46/48, m240
Sig 22x
Glock
GenDyn m134 & Dillion Aero 134
Why do the military TM's warn you not to swap bolt assemblies from different weapons without checking the headspace?
Is placing a brand new bolt into a weapon the same as swapping used ones? As long as the new bolt is from a quality manufacturer and within spec (and your barrel isn't burned out) should this really be an issue?
Iraqgunz is right about head space, it's very improtant and should be checked when matching a new bolt to a weapon. Back to the original question though; have head space checked and make sure its safe, apply lube to bolt and gas rings, assemble weapon and fire several hundred good guality brass cased rounds for a break in period and let us know how it went.
Freerunner
02-23-11, 10:18
Iraqgunz is right about head space, it's very improtant and should be checked when matching a new bolt to a weapon. Back to the original question though; have head space checked and make sure its safe, apply lube to bolt and gas rings, assemble weapon and fire several hundred good guality brass cased rounds for a break in period and let us know how it went.
Will do.
bobslife6826
02-23-11, 17:28
I finally received my new BCG from Fail Zero today. The finish looks great and is smooth in every area. The only problem is that the Bolt is very stiff going back and forth in the Carrier. I tried putting it in two different AR's I have, and it is really hard to pull the charging handle back and forth. In fact, the bolt will not go into battery while riding the charging handle forward, I have to pull it back and let it go (this is being done with no ammo in the gun). (side note: The carrier is running smooth back and forth in the gun, it is just the bolt that is stiff.) I also ordered a spare bolt to go along with the BCG kit, and the spare bolt is having the same problem. I also tried putting the EXO coated bolt in a normal carrier and it has the same problems. The dang EXO coated bolt just seems to be very tight no matter what I do. Has anyone here had this problem with their FailZero bolt when they first received them? Do I just need to run some ammo through it to make it more smooth, or will it ruin my gun if the bolt is too stiff? I have spent about an hour moving the bolt back and forth inside the carrier and it has seemed to smooth out a bit, but is still stiff. Will this go away after firing some rounds through it, or should I send it back for a different one? Thanks.
I just bought one from Spike's Tactical, and I too have the exact same problem you described to a "T" , I'm also worried about it because I wont be able to test it out for a while, as my upper is not assembled yet.................Please give us an update after you take it to the range for the first time.
and/or PM me with your update
Thanks
Cincinnatus
02-23-11, 17:38
Lmao!! Agreed, it's a nice bolt..but it isn't that nice. I didn't realize the spring insert was blue..til' I already owned it! Lol. My BCM bolt isn't as "pretty" but it works just as well & didn't need any spring upgrades...lesson learned!:D
The blue insert is not necessarily a bad thing or a sign of inferiority. Is this bolt going in a carbine length gas system weapon or one with midlength or longer? The black insert is not always needed depending on spring used and length of gas system, etc.
bobslife6826
02-23-11, 17:39
Just out of curiosity......Anyone who has ever bought a brand new BCG made by BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske, or other well known top quality manufacturer, ever have the same problem out of the box; where the bolt rides very stiff in the carrier? Or is this just a problem with the specialty coated BCG's?
Dano,
I am not trying to make a comparison or be disingenuous or stupid. The fact of the matter is that it is a requirement and should be checked. I have replaced bolts where only the lugs cracked or broke and and the barrel was still good and passed thje gaging.
In that case you are putting a new bolt in. If there was no way to check it and the gage wasn't there then I guess one would have an excuse.
To compare the necessity of head-space check, or consequences of excessive headspace, in a .50 M2 with AR15 is disingenuous and stupid.
Especially with regard to putting another NEW bolt in an AR15 format weapon of quality manufacture. I suppose if one had an old excessively worn bolt and mated it to an excessively used barrel(extension) you could have issue.
In my limited experience covering millions of rds and hundreds of working government weapons, the barrel is toast long before headspace is an issue in an M4 varient. Personally I put a new bolt in every 5-8K, w/o checking headspace, on a duty weapon.
The above is my experience, not guidance. I cannot guess, in the commercial market, how many piece of shit, no QA/QC, random metallurgy, poorly assembled AR's are out and about.
Have been to a couple lego assembling courses also:
HK mp5/g3/9x/usp/416/GMG/M320
MK-19
M2 and M3 (.50) open bolt conversion mod
60/81mm US mortar
Colt M4/M16 series
FN m16, mk46/48, m240
Sig 22x
Glock
GenDyn m134 & Dillion Aero 134
I have had complete case head separation due to incorrect headspace (case head ejected but body of case remained in chamber), although not in an AR15. But your gun can go kaboom.
That being said, it is my understanding from manufacturers that if you use a new bcg, you can just drop it into an AR15 without checking headspace. Would it be better to check? Yes.
walter34payton2002
02-24-11, 08:34
Just out of curiosity......Anyone who has ever bought a brand new BCG made by BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske, or other well known top quality manufacturer, ever have the same problem out of the box; where the bolt rides very stiff in the carrier? Or is this just a problem with the specialty coated BCG's?
My new BCM BCG was a bit stiff in the normal sense- new gas rings, etc, but I think you may have hit the nail on the head.....The Fail Zero BCG is coated and maybe adds extra thinkness. One thing I love about BCM is that they make great stuff without trying to get overly cute.
New gas rings tend to make stuff like this happen. Anyone who uses McFarland's can doubly attest to that. It is not indicative that something is working improperly.
I can't believe this was posted before the rifle was even fired.
Freerunner
02-24-11, 15:53
New gas rings tend to make stuff like this happen. Anyone who uses McFarland's can doubly attest to that. It is not indicative that something is working improperly.
I can't believe this was posted before the rifle was even fired.
I am assuming you are referring to me when you say "I can't believe this was posted before the rifle was even fired." Well, I have bought other new BCG and never had them be that stiff. The FailZero BCG was so stiff that I felt like I was going to break my charging handle before the Bolt would unlock from the chamber (and forget about even pushing it into the chamber, I thought I was going to need a hammer). This is why I was asking.
Also, I purchased an extra bolt from FailZero with my original order, and the bolt looks completely different. It is not as shiny and has MPI on it and the other one doesn't. I called FailZero about it and they said because of the increase in sales (from ShotShow), they had to use another manufacturer of BCG, and the new sets came with phosphate coatings on them that has to stripped off. What kind of BS is this?
Also, my Daniel Defense carrier is noticeably shorter that the FailZero carrier. It is not a huge difference, but after placing something flat over the top of them, when they are standing on end, you can see the slight differences. Anyone else have this issue, or is it an issue to worry about? Thanks.
And finally, the extractor spring that is included with the FailZero BCG is a three coil, and is easily pushed back and forth. I feel like sending it back, with all the inconsistencies and crappy springs and all. What the heck.
Someone asked earlier if FailZero BCG was going into a carbine or mid-length gas system. It is a carbine system, so yes I would like the black insert and 4 coil extractor spring.
OK, let's play nice.
I have two Spike's failzero BCG. It is very strange that you'd have so much difficulty with this bolt. One of the gents suggested a headspace check and I always do that with an aftermarket bolt. The bolt, in its new state, is tightly fit, stiff I'd say, so stiff I think the BCG needs any quality lubricant and go heavy on it in those two holes on the right side of the bolt in the BCG as well as the bolt lugs. Heck, douse it. If it is in spec, it simply must chamber, stiff or not stiff. I know FZ doesn't require lube, but I do it anyway, lightly, until it is running smoothly with a hundred rounds through it, as long as you can get the bolt to close.
If none of that resolves the problem, and it's not by chance a gas key issue, I'd call FailZero and go up the food chain until you get someone who says send it back, we want to see it. Don't suffer in silence, but realize that the firearms industry is very busy at some places and mistakes happen and the company will fix it. Wouldn't you that for a BCM bolt?
The bolt in my FZ Extreme Duty Kit also had a tight fit going back into the carrier.
Pull the charging handle, lock the bolt back, slap the bolt release: does the bolt lock into place? If yes, go shoot it. It smooths out and will insert a bit easier.
With a carbine gas system, you'll want to go with a higher strength buffer spring and H2 buffer anyways. I recommend Tubb's flat buffer springs.
Good luck.
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