View Full Version : Need Advice on a 12Ga Pump
This is my first post on M4C. I have been an admirer of this site for a while now and feel it has the most substantive information for modern firearms on the net.
I am looking for advice on a pump 12 ga for my first defensive shotgun course. The consensus here seems to be the 870, 500 & 590 (Browning BPS, Winchester Defender possibly?) are the obvious selections however I would like some input on which variation & specific features I should be looking at. The course I am taking will be in the summer time & the course requires 350 rounds of birdshot, 75 rounds of 00 buckshot, and 50 rounds of slugs.
My scattergun experience is limited to duck/pheasant/grouse/dove/quail hunting and Trap Shooting. I would bring my 28" Winchester Ranger but I believe a dude would get his ass kicked bringin a gun like that to a shotgun course in Alaska.
The basic criteria for my shotgun needs to be at a minimum:
18-20" Cylinderbore Barrel
Pump
Stainless or Parkerized
Sling Attachments
Synthetic Stock
3" Chambering
Price Range $300-$600
Any other suggestions?
Get the Mossberg 590A1 SPX (http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26). 20" barrel, 9-shot, and comes with LPA ghost ring sights and a Ontario M9 bayonet. It's a little front heavy but after a while you won't notice it. When you get to that link, click through the models until you come to the SPX.
If you go this route, make sure you get a cheekpad of some sort for the stock. Mossberg uses the same stocks for this gun as they do for the bead sight guns, but these sights are about an inch taller. Get the Eagle Industries Cheek Pad (http://www.nctactical.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=316) and you'll be G2G.
Moose-Knuckle
02-23-11, 19:42
IMO, you really only have two choices when it comes to defensive pump action 12gauge shotguns. Remington 870 and the Mossberg 590. There are other viable options out there, Ithca comes to mind. But. . .with the 870 and 590 you will be hard pressed to find any other model with the choices of parts and accessories.
My personal shotgun,
Mossberg 590
BFG VCAS (http://www.blueforcegear.com/products/Vickers-Combat-Applications-Sling%E2%84%A2.html)
BFG M16 stock adaptor (http://www.blueforcegear.com/products/Band-for-M16-A1%7B47%7DA2-Buttstock.html)
GG&G Front Sling Attachement (http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?id=316&parents=153,172)
Wolff Extra Power Magazine Spring
Hogue "Youth" Stock
This year I plan on acquiring a SF forend (623LM) for it as well as some other after market doohikies.
How useful would the heat shield be for a defensive course?
Worth the extra weight?
I would like to keep it as simple as possible so I'm thinking a bead sight will be the way to go.
I like the idea of a youth stock. I can use it as justification to my wife that the gun is for the boy.
Having gone through multiple Mossbergs, I'm a big believer in the Gold Standard of defensive/duty shotguns....
Remington 870 Police.
Wingmasters are good as well and can easily be built into something worthwhile.
Might want to do a search in the forum, this has been discussed repeatedly and lots of good info archived.
Having gone through multiple Mossbergs, I'm a big believer in the Gold Standard of defensive/duty shotguns....
Remington 870 Police.
Wingmasters are good as well and can easily be built into something worthwhile.
Might want to do a search in the forum, this has been discussed repeatedly and lots of good info archived.
In your opinion is the police model 870 worth the extra $200 over the mossberg 590 A1?
Moose-Knuckle
02-23-11, 21:15
Having gone through multiple Mossbergs, I'm a big believer in the Gold Standard of defensive/duty shotguns....
Remington 870 Police.
Yes, I should have emphasized if you go the Remington route pony up for the Police Magnum or 870P.
Moose-Knuckle
02-23-11, 21:21
How useful would the heat shield be for a defensive course?
Worth the extra weight?
I would like to keep it as simple as possible so I'm thinking a bead sight will be the way to go.
I like the idea of a youth stock. I can use it as justification to my wife that the gun is for the boy.
I removed my heat shield. If you like a bead sight I'd take a look at a front bead replacement with a Tritium insert. I like Meprolight, they have a front bead for my 590.
I don't generally recommend the SPX models. They are an artifact of a set of military requirements I was working with Mossberg on back in early 2005-06. As stated above the sight line a little high with the standard stock for some people.
If you are looking at a Mossberg take a hard look at one of the 18" 590A1 SKUs. The bead sight model is a great one and the Bantum wood stock with Ghost Ring Sights (GRS) is a real sleeper in their line up.
I would like to keep it as simple as possible so I'm thinking a bead sight will be the way to go.
If you're used to shooting irons on a rifle then you will love ghost ring sights.
redfernsoljah
02-23-11, 22:03
I would recommend the remington 870 with some vang comp goodies.
IE oversized safety, side saddle, and ghost rings to start. This would give you an excellent platofrm without breaking the bank. Good luck..:moil:
18" 870 xcs if you can find one
a set of ghost ring sights and a side saddle at the very least
vangcomped is deffinatly worth it if you wanna spend tho money
heatshield is a waste of money
18" 870 xcs if you can find one
a set of ghost ring sights and a side saddle at the very least
vangcomped is deffinatly worth it if you wanna spend tho money
heatshield is a waste of money
The XCS looks like a sweet gun. If I could find one I would probably spend the money as the trynite finish is just what I'm looking for.
I will be carrying the gun in everything from coastal salt environments to extreme arctic conditions.
Anyone have real world experience with this weapon? If it's anything like the XCR line of rifles then it must be an outstanding.
redfernsoljah
02-24-11, 01:47
The XCS looks like a sweet gun. If I could find one I would probably spend the money as the trynite finish is just what I'm looking for.
I will be carrying the gun in everything from coastal salt environments to extreme arctic conditions.
Anyone have real world experience with this weapon? If it's anything like the XCR line of rifles then it must be an outstanding.
With the 870 yes I would put my life in its trust. The finish my opinion if you properly take care of your weapon I think it may be overkill. Unless you are on the next episode of cat shit one popping out of the marsh. :rolleyes: Spend your hard earned money on ghost sights and a caddy kit. Properly wipe down your rifle in extreme conditions and you will be fine. This will allow you to start training with abili to quickly change loads between buck and slug and have the sights to be able to aim with both loads.
-red
Just buy a box stock 18" Remington 870 Express. It is all you need. Replace the follower and mag spring with an heavy duty version.
You don't need heat shields, ghost ring sights, oversize safeties, midget stocks, side saddles, vang comp modifications, porting, or anything else.
The 870 is the most over accessorized gun on the planet.
The 870 is the most over accessorized gun on the planet.
So too true
If you are looking at a Mossberg take a hard look at one of the 18" 590A1 SKUs. The bead sight model is a great one and the Bantum wood stock with Ghost Ring Sights (GRS) is a real sleeper in their line up.
Good advice here.
870P is the gold standard, but in a Mossberg, heed the above.
There is no advantage in getting a Police model of the Remington 870.
1. The finish on the 870 express is fine.
2. The MIM extractor on the express is fine.
3. The plastic trigger guard on the express is superior to the Police.
4. They both have the same dog carrier spring now.
It is just marketing. You can almost buy 2 Express guns for one police.
See if they rent shotguns to students in the course. If it is more than a one day course, ask if you can rent a Remington for the first half of the course and a Mossberg for the second half of the course. You can familiarize yourself with both weapons and make a more educated decision for yourself. The Remington vs Mossberg, 870 express vs 870p, bead sight vs ghost ring sight, and other related debates will continue eternally with many consumers defending what they have purchased or are most familiar with.
TheGreenRanger24
02-24-11, 15:05
There is no advantage in getting a Police model of the Remington 870.
1. The finish on the 870 express is fine.
2. The MIM extractor on the express is fine.
3. The plastic trigger guard on the express is superior to the Police.
4. They both have the same dog carrier spring now.
It is just marketing. You can almost buy 2 Express guns for one police.
For someone considering an express, please read this post . . . https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11636
. . . and this post again. https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=919392&postcount=5
If money is an issue, look for a wingmaster as you can sometimes find a good used one for the price of a new express. (I've seen some run for around $200 in my area, which is on par with an express.)
IMO (for what it's worth), if in doubt, buy the 870P. Run the class with it, see how you like it and what works for you, then go from there.
The comparison list is obsolete and misleading:
• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.
THIS IS A $15 UPGRADE FROM BROWNELLS.
• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.
THIS IS A DISADVANTAGE. 870 EXPRESS GUNS ALWAYS GO BANG. NON ISSUE.
• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.
THEY BOTH USE THE SAME SPRING NOW.
• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.
DOES NOT APPLY ANYMORE.
• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.
WHO CARES?
• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.
THE EXPRESS IS FINE. I HAVE WOOD ON MINE. JUST AS GOOD.
• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.
YOU CAN BUY THE 870 EXPRESS WITH OR WITHOUT AN EXTENSION. NON ISSUE.
• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.
THE EXPRESS FINISH IS FINE.
• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.
SYNTHETIC IS BETTER.
• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.
THEY BOTH WORK.
• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.
TAKE THE EXTRA MONEY YOU WOULD HAVE SPENT ON THE POLICE AND PRACTICE. THE EXPRESS WILL BE SMOOTH TOO.
• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.
MIM IS FINE. THEY DO NOT BREAK. NEEDLESS WORRYING.
Moose-Knuckle
02-24-11, 17:27
The comparison list is obsolete and misleading:
• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.
THIS IS A $15 UPGRADE FROM BROWNELLS.
• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.
THIS IS A DISADVANTAGE. 870 EXPRESS GUNS ALWAYS GO BANG. NON ISSUE.
• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.
THEY BOTH USE THE SAME SPRING NOW.
• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.
DOES NOT APPLY ANYMORE.
• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.
WHO CARES?
• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.
THE EXPRESS IS FINE. I HAVE WOOD ON MINE. JUST AS GOOD.
• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.
YOU CAN BUY THE 870 EXPRESS WITH OR WITHOUT AN EXTENSION. NON ISSUE.
• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.
THE EXPRESS FINISH IS FINE.
• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.
SYNTHETIC IS BETTER.
• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.
THEY BOTH WORK.
• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.
TAKE THE EXTRA MONEY YOU WOULD HAVE SPENT ON THE POLICE AND PRACTICE. THE EXPRESS WILL BE SMOOTH TOO.
• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.
MIM IS FINE. THEY DO NOT BREAK. NEEDLESS WORRYING.
I could have bought a DPMS instead of my Colt, but I sleep a little easier a night knowing I have something that at the least meets DOD procurement standards.
TheGreenRanger24
02-24-11, 17:41
I could have bought a DPMS instead of my Colt, but I sleep a little easier a night knowing I have something that at the least meets DOD procurement standards.
That is more or less the point I was trying to convey. Personally, I would rather spend a little more and get a known variable than try to upgrade something along the way (at least, for one's first shotgun). Besides, the 870P fits more along the lines of what the OP was looking for to begin with.
Well....you can just keep on keeping on believing that.....I'm also guessing your Express is sitting next to your Bushmaster.
The comparison list is obsolete and misleading:
• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.
THIS IS A $15 UPGRADE FROM BROWNELLS.
• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.
THIS IS A DISADVANTAGE. 870 EXPRESS GUNS ALWAYS GO BANG. NON ISSUE.
• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.
THEY BOTH USE THE SAME SPRING NOW.
• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.
DOES NOT APPLY ANYMORE.
• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.
WHO CARES?
• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.
THE EXPRESS IS FINE. I HAVE WOOD ON MINE. JUST AS GOOD.
• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.
YOU CAN BUY THE 870 EXPRESS WITH OR WITHOUT AN EXTENSION. NON ISSUE.
• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.
THE EXPRESS FINISH IS FINE.
• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.
SYNTHETIC IS BETTER.
• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.
THEY BOTH WORK.
• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.
TAKE THE EXTRA MONEY YOU WOULD HAVE SPENT ON THE POLICE AND PRACTICE. THE EXPRESS WILL BE SMOOTH TOO.
• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.
MIM IS FINE. THEY DO NOT BREAK. NEEDLESS WORRYING.
Straw man arguments.
This is not an AR discussion. It is a discussion about whether a man should pay 2x the amount for essentially the same shotgun because it says "Police" on it.
There are no significant differences. Buy an Express and spend $15 on a follower/mag spring upgrade. You're done.
Or, waste your money to be just like the police. A fool and his money are soon parted.
TheGreenRanger24
02-24-11, 18:41
A fool and his money are soon parted. How very true. :rolleyes:
OP, an 870 Police or Wingmaster would either serve you equally well and would be my personal choices, in that order.
70extreme, unfortunately the ignore user feature still shows your posts when someone else quotes you. This is the second shotgun thread that you have completely derailed by stating your opinions as fact. Please stop doing that. You would do better to state that those features mean nothing TO YOU. Please state your background about what makes you an authority on shotguns, their customization and use. Thank you.
ShortytheFirefighter
02-24-11, 18:51
Or if you don't mind some cosmetic issues you can always look for a department used 870 Police Model. They are available from time to time. I picked up a former ND State Patrol 870P for 140.00 bucks that's in great shape save for a few cosmetic rack issues which didn't even affect the parkerizing. 18in barrel, extended mag, synthetic forend.
Nothing like spending 1/3 of what I would have for an Express and getting a better gun.
Moose-Knuckle
02-24-11, 19:06
Straw man arguments.
This is not an AR discussion. It is a discussion about whether a man should pay 2x the amount for essentially the same shotgun because it says "Police" on it.
There are no significant differences. Buy an Express and spend $15 on a follower/mag spring upgrade. You're done.
Or, waste your money to be just like the police. A fool and his money are soon parted.
The 870P is not just a "Police" model, it is a DOD issued system among others. You wanna be cheap, it's your dime. Fellow member and SME CombatDiver has posted some great pics of Remingtons in the above sticky for Military Shotgun Photos. I don't see any Express models in there.
Straw man arguments.
This is not an AR discussion. It is a discussion about whether a man should pay 2x the amount for essentially the same shotgun because it says "Police" on it.
There are no significant differences. Buy an Express and spend $15 on a follower/mag spring upgrade. You're done.
Or, waste your money to be just like the police. A fool and his money are soon parted.
Sometimes you just don't know what you just don't know, and you just don't know.
I've got no problem with people who challenge convention, but if you are going to do it against people who are a known quantity and have a long-standing track record of supplying sound information, you better have some pretty compelling evidence. You haven't posted anything as yet to indicate to me (or anyone else) that you have something to offer other than an unsubstantiated contrary opinion.
Responses like "big deal", "means nothing", and "who cares" do not contribute anything of value to this forum.
Geez guys, didn't mean to create a shit storm here.
Just to be clear my intended primary use for this shotgun aside from the defensive course I am required to take is for protection against 4 legged toothy critters. Anything from Polar bears to wolves. My secondary purpose is for home defense which around here can be 2 or 4 legged assailants. I am not LE, I'm not being deployed to a war zone and don't plan on jumping out of airplanes and rolling around in the sand. Having said that the thing must go bang every time for reasons stated above. It needs to operate in extreme cold, extreme rain, salt environments and dirt & grime. It will however spend most of it's time in the safe and cleaned properly when necessary.
I like the pricepoint of the express, the reputation of the 870p, and the military service of the 590a1. I think my selection will be one of these 3. The only accessory I could see installing is a side saddle, sling and possibly a railed fore grip or similar mount for a light.
I would like to hear about any failures you all have had with either of the aforementioned weapons. FTE's, FTF's, broken parts, defective finishes etc.
Geez guys, didn't mean to create a shit storm here.
Just to be clear my intended primary use for this shotgun aside from the defensive course I am required to take is for protection against 4 legged toothy critters. Anything from Polar bears to wolves. My secondary purpose is for home defense which around here can be 2 or 4 legged assailants. I am not LE, I'm not being deployed to a war zone and don't plan on jumping out of airplanes and rolling around in the sand. Having said that the thing must go bang every time for reasons stated above. It needs to operate in extreme cold, extreme rain, salt environments and dirt & grime. It will however spend most of it's time in the safe and cleaned properly when necessary.
I like the pricepoint of the express, the reputation of the 870p, and the military service of the 590a1. I think my selection will be one of these 3. The only accessory I could see installing is a side saddle, sling and possibly a railed fore grip or similar mount for a light.
I would like to hear about any failures you all have had with either of the aforementioned weapons. FTE's, FTF's, broken parts, defective finishes etc.
I've had several instances of failures to extract on several Mossberg 500's and 590's. I've seen the finishes on the 870 Express rush like a mother if you look at it cross eyed. I've seen the plastic trigger guards on both Mossberg 500's, 590's, and 870 Expresses break.
I would like to hear about any failures you all have had with either of the aforementioned weapons. FTE's, FTF's, broken parts, defective finishes etc.
No issues at all with mine. Runs like a champ
I've seen the plastic trigger guards on both Mossberg 500's, 590's, and 870 Expresses break.
Go with the 590A1 line with all metal parts. Really can't go wrong with the price point
TheGreenRanger24
02-24-11, 23:56
Geez guys, didn't mean to create a shit storm here.
You didn't. Such is what happens when asking things upon the internet. Luckily, this board doesn't typically put up with a lot of crap.
For accessories, you can look at some of the stuff Mesa Tactical has to offer. You can pretty much find whatever your heart desires . . . especially if you choose an 870 (or a 590a1). :p http://www.mesatactical.com/
I've had several instances of failures to extract on several Mossberg 500's and 590's. I've seen the finishes on the 870 Express rush like a mother if you look at it cross eyed. I've seen the plastic trigger guards on both Mossberg 500's, 590's, and 870 Expresses break.
Regarding the finish of the express; did it rust because of prolonged exposure to the elements or stored when wet? Could you elaborate on the circumstance a bit? I'm curious to know if you oiled the receiver & barrel. If so what what oil did you use?
Regarding the finish of the express; did it rust because of prolonged exposure to the elements or stored when wet? Could you elaborate on the circumstance a bit? I'm curious to know if you oiled the receiver & barrel. If so what what oil did you use?
I sold quite a few of them, and unless kept slathered in oil, they'd rust down here in VA with our high humidity, especially after being handled, with people depositing body oils and acids on them, or sweating on them in the summer.
Before someone closes this thread, I'd like to hear more from 70extreme, to better understand the basis of his input:
What is the context of your use of a shotgun? (Sport/Rec/Home Defense/LE/Mil)
870 Armorer? Remington trained? Otherwise a maintainer? Otherwise responsible for an inventory of guns going in harms way in some form (LE/mil)?
Your obnoxious attitude and arrogance isn't contributing meaningfully to this discussion. I say arrogance because you have demonstrated quite effectively your lack of or very limited experience with the 870 Police shotgun, yet you presume to give advice in contradiction to those who have extensive training and experience with the 870 Police. As an armorer, my opinion is that the 870 Police model has, by far, the fewest issues and failures of any of the 870 line. Some of the things that you listed as "FINE" on the Express have been changed by Remington on the Police model because they can and do fail more often. If you had experience with this weapon you would know that. My assessment comes from servicing the shotguns of a 4,000 officer police department and those of the multitude of agencies that train at the police academy for nearly 20 years. The 870 Police is the gold standard of pump action service shotguns.
Stay in your lane from now on.
The comparison list is obsolete and misleading:
• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.
BIG DEAL. MEANS NOTHING.
• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.
THIS IS A $15 UPGRADE FROM BROWNELLS.
• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.
THIS IS A DISADVANTAGE. 870 EXPRESS GUNS ALWAYS GO BANG. NON ISSUE.
• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.
THEY BOTH USE THE SAME SPRING NOW.
• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.
DOES NOT APPLY ANYMORE.
• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.
WHO CARES?
• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.
THE EXPRESS IS FINE. I HAVE WOOD ON MINE. JUST AS GOOD.
• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.
YOU CAN BUY THE 870 EXPRESS WITH OR WITHOUT AN EXTENSION. NON ISSUE.
• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.
THE EXPRESS FINISH IS FINE.
• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.
SYNTHETIC IS BETTER.
• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.
THEY BOTH WORK.
• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.
TAKE THE EXTRA MONEY YOU WOULD HAVE SPENT ON THE POLICE AND PRACTICE. THE EXPRESS WILL BE SMOOTH TOO.
• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.
MIM IS FINE. THEY DO NOT BREAK. NEEDLESS WORRYING.
Challenge any of my statements based on the FACTS listed in my analysis of the obsolete and misleading marketing document known as
"Important differences between Remington 870 Police and 870 Express shotguns"
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to analyze the difference in two shotguns from the same company. It is all marketing. If you need to have "Police" stamped on the side of your gun to tell you it is the best, go for it. I can't help you.
I would also like to see some 870 armorers who maintain a substantial number of these weapons weigh in on the 870P vs 870 express debate. Not looking for a repeat of what remington says or what folks have heard on other forums. I don't believe the express is "as good as" the police model but that is based on a sample size of four: 870P carried on duty, two previously owned Express models, and my current 870P for personal use. I realize this is just my personal opinion based on an insignificant number of shotguns and would like some folks with real world knowledge speak up.
An 870 Police will serve you well, sir. It's worth a few extra bucks and I think you will be very satisfied with the gun. I will literally last you a lifetime. If you plan on taking this weapon into the bush for protection, the 870 Police will hold up infinitely better than a comparable Express. The parkerizing is worth the money and it can easily be rejuvenated after exposure to inclement weather by a good cleaning and the rubbing grease or oil into the finish. Parkerizing is great at trapping grease and oil, as well has being highly durable. It's the reason that weapons like the M1 Garand were parkerized. The 870 Police is a shotgun that has been combat proven in all types of climates and weather conditions. Something that you folks in Alaska can appreciate.
Geez guys, didn't mean to create a shit storm here.
Just to be clear my intended primary use for this shotgun aside from the defensive course I am required to take is for protection against 4 legged toothy critters. Anything from Polar bears to wolves. My secondary purpose is for home defense which around here can be 2 or 4 legged assailants. I am not LE, I'm not being deployed to a war zone and don't plan on jumping out of airplanes and rolling around in the sand. Having said that the thing must go bang every time for reasons stated above. It needs to operate in extreme cold, extreme rain, salt environments and dirt & grime. It will however spend most of it's time in the safe and cleaned properly when necessary.
I like the pricepoint of the express, the reputation of the 870p, and the military service of the 590a1. I think my selection will be one of these 3. The only accessory I could see installing is a side saddle, sling and possibly a railed fore grip or similar mount for a light.
I would like to hear about any failures you all have had with either of the aforementioned weapons. FTE's, FTF's, broken parts, defective finishes etc.
Challenge any of my statements based on the FACTS listed in my analysis of the obsolete and misleading marketing document known as
"Important differences between Remington 870 Police and 870 Express shotguns"
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to analyze the difference in two shotguns from the same company. It is all marketing. If you need to have "Police" stamped on the side of your gun to tell you it is the best, go for it. I can't help you.
Ok, since you asked:
1) The bead blast finish will rust within hours of rain exposure or exposure to sweat. I have seen this more times than I can count.
2) The MIM parts break. They break far more often than the machined parts. I've seen fifty or so broken MIM extractors from use with agencies and individual officers using Express models. I have not seen a machined extractor break once. Not one.
EDIT: I should clarify this a bit. Most of the extractors that I've seen fail have rarely broken into pieces. They have simply failed to extract shells as designed. The powder metal or MIM types were the main culprits. When the machined ones failed to extract, you changed the spring and they worked again. The MIM extractors were sometimes observed to have broken off small pieces of the extractor "hook" and this was enough to cause a failure to extract. I didn't want to give the impression that MIM extractors were crumbling to dust.
3) Same story with the MIM ejectors. Those can be broken easily by simply having the barrel lined up slightly crooked when re-installing after a detailed strip and clean. I've replaced a few dozen of these. Aside from the spring wearing out, I've never replaced a broken machined ejector.
4) The synthetic trigger housings/guards crack when you hit them on things like car doors, bumpers, etc. I have seen this with my own eyes and have repaired them. The machined ones don't have that problem.
I have serviced thousands of 870 police weapons over the years. Some of the guns used by my former agency are decades old. Moreover, some (like the ones used at the academy for training) have round counts in the high five-figure range and have only needed spring replacements as required.
Again, please stay in your lane. There are people here that have a lot more time on the clock with this gun than you do and you're digging a hole for yourself. I'd bow out of this one if I were you.
EDIT: As was requested earlier by another member: Post your qualifications and experience with the 870 Police. I'm tired of arguing with someone who has no clue.
My assessment comes from servicing the shotguns of a 4,000 officer police department and those of the multitude of agencies that train at the police academy for nearly 20 years. The 870 Police is the gold standard of pump action service shotguns.
DireWulf, thank you for your response. I was typing my request for an experienced armorer to respond at the same time you posted your real world experience.
DireWulf, thank you for your response. I was typing my request for an experienced armorer to respond at the same time you posted your real world experience.
No problem, sir. At least one of the mods here has extensive armorer experience and I hope he weighs in. I was one of about thirty or forty certified armorers at my agency and did not do it full time. I mainly conducted inspections of the field weapons during quarterly training and performed maintenance as required. Same for the academy weapons when I was teaching classes. We had about six or eight full time armory staff who did most of the heavy lifting, but I certainly saw my fair share.
Stay in your lane? I know you have a fetish for the Police model. But, are you a traffic cop now?
Are you joking about the finish? I have hunted waterfowl with an 870 Express for 20+ years in far worse conditions (salt water, rain, snow...) than that seen by the gun school commandos. Wipe the gun down at the end of the day and you are good to go. Basic gun care 101.
The synthetic triggers are far superior to the injected metal triggers. They withstand impact better. You are wrong here.
MIM. You stand a higher chance of being kidnapped by aliens than having your MIM extractor brake on you at a critical point. If you just have to have the police extractor. It is $10 at Brownells.
The facts of your argument are weak.
Stay in your lane? I know you have a fetish for the Police model. But, are you a traffic cop now?
Are you joking about the finish? I have hunted waterfowl with an 870 Express for 20+ years in far worse conditions (salt water, rain, snow...) than that seen by the gun school commandos. Wipe the gun down at the end of the day and you are good to go. Basic gun care 101.
The synthetic triggers are far superior to the injected metal triggers. They withstand impact better. You are wrong here.
MIM. You stand a higher chance of being kidnapped by aliens than having your MIM extractor brake on you at a critical point. If you just have to have the police extractor. It is $10 at Brownells.
The facts of your argument are weak.
Your qualifications? Or did you miss that part?
You've been asked three times for them in this thread now.
jasonhgross
02-25-11, 13:22
Debate the facts.
Fact: You should go away.
Glock17JHP
02-25-11, 13:34
Dang... I almost feel like I accidentally went to GlockTalk!!!
But seriously...
I have had 4-5 Remington 870 Police shotguns... the only problem a EVER encountered was 'short stroking', and that could have been me, I suppose.
I currently have (and really like) a Winchester 8-shot synthetic stocked Defender. I have never 'short stroked' it... in the 5+ years and many rounds I have put through it. Perhaps I got better, or the 'Speed Pump' feature helps here.
My friend had the Mossberg 590 military styled pump, 8+1 with the heat shied and bayo lug. I found the action to be stiff and not too smooth. It was also heavier than my Winchester. I did not like it.
I prefer the Defender, but the model I have has been discontinued, so I cannot recommend it unless you find it used.
Debate the facts.
Hunting? Really? Any time on the 870 Police? Any hard use on those Express guns? Something like 500 or 800 rounds in a day? We're talking about defensive firearms here, sir. The OP has need for a defensive weapon. You were given facts and personal experience by several members in this debate and you chose to ignore them or, in my case, cast aspersions on my character with a defacto accusation of lying. You are in way over your head here. This is not ARFCOM or Glock Talk. There are people here with extensive experience in this subject that ranges way beyond hunting pheasants on a Sunday morning.
I'd read here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1497
Then maybe here:
http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/14401/73895.html
These will help you navigate how things work here. This forum does a good job of policing itself and, as a result, draws the participation of people with qualifications and experience not seen in this concentration on most other forums.
I'm through debating with you. You simply don't have the ability to see a point of view that is in opposition to yours and you have provided few substantive arguments. Telling people to "debate the facts" every time you hear a fact you disagree with is childish. Just because you have a particular experience, doesn't mean that the rest of us have not experienced something different. You are arguing against a point that has been established and confirmed time and time again by a multitude of professionals of over the last few decades.
Your advice is dangerous because it is opinion based on a what appears to be a very narrow scope of experience. Your hunting experience is valid, but you've gone far and above with your diatribe on the 870 Police. Which, it appears, you don't have any time on.
I'm through debating with you. You simply don't have the ability to see a point of view that is in opposition to yours and you have provided few substantive arguments.
Right back at you.
70,
i think you've said enough. if we can not discuss this topic like adults it will be locked.
I previously worked at a station with 500+ personnel assigned to it all with enough 870 Police Models to outfit them all. I then moved to another approximately 600 person field office with 250-300 pool 870 Police models. Most were VERY old and like Direwulf, I only saw springs that needed to be replaced. My current station has about 50 870 Wingmasters that are ancient but still run like a raped ape. I was/am the primary armorer at the last two duty locations.
My 870 Express experience is limited to the one I own personally and a handful of others that friends own. My experience of the Express finish is similar to Direwulf's and Templar's. My personal gun rusts if I look at it crossways.
I would also like to see some 870 armorers who maintain a substantial number of these weapons weigh in on the 870P vs 870 express debate. Not looking for a repeat of what remington says or what folks have heard on other forums. I don't believe the express is "as good as" the police model but that is based on a sample size of four: 870P carried on duty, two previously owned Express models, and my current 870P for personal use. I realize this is just my personal opinion based on an insignificant number of shotguns and would like some folks with real world knowledge speak up.
ShortytheFirefighter
02-25-11, 20:28
I own one of each (870P/590A1) in similar configurations to what you're looking for.
I own an 870 Police Magnum, 18in barrel with extended mag, synthetic forend with a Knoxx SpecOps stock. As I said above, it was a former ND State Patrol shotgun. I've put a over 1000 rounds through it without a hiccup. It just shoots and shoots and shoots. I haven't had a single issue with it, and it's been shot in rain, sleet and snow. The finish isn't perfect, but no bare metal and no rust issues. It points well and isn't too heavy.
I also have a 590A1 with a 20in barrel and extended mag, also fitted with a Knoxx SpecOps. The Mossberg does hold an extra round over the 870 due to the extra barrel length. The heavy wall barrel does make it nose heavy, noticeably so. If you're doing a lot of drills where you're bringing the gun up you'll notice it pretty soon. Reliabilitywise it's been the same as the 870. It does show a tendency to rust a bit more (on the barrel, not the receiver), but I've cleaned it up and a wipedown with a silicone cloth has eliminated it.
Because of the stocks I run, the safety ergonomics shift from the 590A1 to the 870. The Mossberg has the bladed front sight rather than the bead but both are easy and quick to aim with. I do prefer the reload on the Mossberg over the 870, but it's not a deal breaker one way or the other.
My advice is to try to find one of each to handle. The heavywall barrel on the A1 will make a difference in the handling. I've had good luck with both, my home gun is the Mossberg. My go to double gun bag has my LMT MRP in one side, my 870P in the other.
This is my sample of one. Good luck, let us know what you go with.
ChicagoTex
02-26-11, 01:15
My friend had the Mossberg 590 military styled pump, 8+1 with the heat shied and bayo lug. I found the action to be stiff and not too smooth. It was also heavier than my Winchester. I did not like it.
While I'm hardly a Mossberg fan I gotta ask, was it fairly new when you fired/operated it? It's extremely common for people to complain of action stiffness on new Mossbergs that improves considerably with break-in.
For someone considering an express, please read this post . . . https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11636
That list is soooooo outdated and not accurate anymore.
TheGreenRanger24
02-26-11, 04:50
That list is soooooo outdated and not accurate anymore.
Perhaps not, but the general point of my post was to point out that there are differences in an express model and the police. Besides, while some of the points may not apply to newer models guns, I'm sure the market still has plenty of express 870s that still fit the bill. :suicide:
Oh well, maybe someone will update the list eventually.
Perhaps not, but the general point of my post was to point out that there are differences in an express model and the police. Besides, while some of the points may not apply to newer models guns, I'm sure the market still has plenty of express 870s that still fit the bill.
You are correct, there are differences between the 870 E and 870P, but not as many as there used to be when that differences list was put out by Remington.
I see that list quoted frequently and feel it is misleading to do so without pointing out the updates. That is not intended as a dig at you or others as many people do not realize the list is not fully accurate anymore. Now that I have read the whole thread (whew!) I see that 70 did post the updated info; although, I would have probably done so in a different manner.
At one time, I owned and used an 870E (#25077 18" and factory extended magazine), a 590A1 (#51663 20" heavy barrel) and an 18" 1300 Defender at the same time. Here are my personal observations:
1. 870E - If you want smooth out of the box, get the 870P, but the 870E will smooth out with use. The 870E can be upgraded with 870P parts for less money than buying a factory 870P, which is what I did.
I also have to say my 870E never rusted even though it mostly sat in my master bedroom closet which is open to my humid bathroom, but I fully admit I never took it out in the rain.
2. 590A1 - It is built like a tank but you will feel the weight. I felt the 870E and Defender were much easier to maneuver due to both less weigh and the shorter barrels, but I prefer the location of the slide release and safety on the 590A1. I also prefer the shell lifter on the 590A1 as it leaves the reload path unobstructed. I also liked the ghost ring sights on it as opposed to the simple bead on the other 2; although, I believe you can get the ghost rings on the 870 as well, just not on the model I had.
The Mossberg, however, is more complex to field strip and reassemble than either the Remington or Winchester as there are more parts in the action.
3. The Defender was the lightest of the 3 and kicked like a mule. I liked it the least of the 3.
The best advice I can give anyone is to try them out to find out how they fit and feel. Use the controls to see which you prefer. It really is a personal choice. Chevy vs Ford
If I were buying a defensive shotgun today my ideal would be the 14" 590A1 for its much shorter barrel and lighter weight, but with the controls I prefer. This one:http://www.impactguns.com/store/015813526890.html
The only significant difference between the 870E and the 870P (besides a couple $10 parts) is the finish. I have hunted with 870Es in conditions that no self defense gun will ever see - rain, salt water, snow.
Just wipe the express down at the end of the day and you are fine. It is basic gun care 101. No big deal.
Think for yourself.
So I've narrowed it down to two guns. This might be unfair to the 590a1 but I cannot find one locally to handle. I like the marine magnum 870 and the police model however I cannot find the police on the rack anywhere locally as well. I would be comfortable purchasing the police blindly solely based on The info I have received from this thread.
Having said that I would like to hear opinions on the marine vs the police.
A local gunshop has a slightly used marine upgraded with fiber optic rifle sights, over sized safety, aftermarket follower etc. And is willing to take a trade in toward the value which is a Plus for me.
So let's hear it. Play nice.
The Marine that you're looking at, is it the older electroless nickel finish?
I have seen one that did service on a yacht here in the Chesapeak Bay/Caribbean that held up fine as far as rust....the blued sling swivels were damn near rusted solid, but the metal that had been coated held up very well.
The Marine is a blend of Police/Wingmaster and Express components. The older models have the longer commercial forend that will restrict you to a 4 shot side saddle unless replaced or cut down.
I personally dislike having such a blinged out electroless nickel finish, but it is protective.
It sounds like the previous owner replaced the lock out safety with something more substantial. I'm not a fan of the polymer trigger guards, I've seen several crack/break.
If it were me, I'd look for a surplus Police or used Wingmaster and either chop the barrel on the Wingmaster or get a new one from Brownells/Midway.
So I've narrowed it down to two guns. This might be unfair to the 590a1 but I cannot find one locally to handle. I like the marine magnum 870 and the police model however I cannot find the police on the rack anywhere locally as well. I would be comfortable purchasing the police blindly solely based on The info I have received from this thread.
Having said that I would like to hear opinions on the marine vs the police.
A local gunshop has a slightly used marine upgraded with fiber optic rifle sights, over sized safety, aftermarket follower etc. And is willing to take a trade in toward the value which is a Plus for me.
So let's hear it. Play nice.
How soon do you need this shotgun?
Your dealer can likely order you something or you can search the web for a gun and have it transferred to your dealer. An 870P with a wood stock, parkerized finish and rifle sights generally runs about $550. That's the lower end of the scale. Beware of dealers charging more than $600 for something like that. Bead sight models are a little less. A bare bones 870P would give you something for the class and something that you could build on as time goes on. The instructors in the class can give you tips and you can check out the set-ups on other people's guns. Most people will be all too happy to let you fondle their shotguns.
I agree with Templar's assessment of the Marine. Also, the Wingmaster suggestion is great and swapping shotgun barrels is relatively inexpensive and simple to do. There was a suggestion earlier about borrowing a gun for the class. That's also a good option if you can swing it. Unless you need to have this gun right now, I'd explore all of your options before laying down the cash. Doing it right the first time can't be over emphasized.
EDIT: Forgot you're in AK. Prices may be higher in your area. However a transfer from an Oregon or Washington dealer might work well on the shipping side of things.
ShortytheFirefighter
02-26-11, 11:21
The only significant difference between the 870E and the 870P (besides a couple $10 parts) is the finish. I have hunted with 870Es in conditions that no self defense gun will ever see - rain, salt water, snow.
Just wipe the express down at the end of the day and you are fine. It is basic gun care 101. No big deal.
Think for yourself.
You're still on this? Seriously?
Your experience is a sample of one, and your hunting experience does not equate to a self defense scenario.
There are plenty of self defense shotguns that see harder use and much higher round counts than your 870E. Police officers are out in the elements year round, as well as soldiers. Those are the people that the OP is seeking out, and a number of them have already posted their extensive experience and advice. It's obvious that you don't think that there is a difference, those who work with these guns on a daily basis say otherwise.
Your "experience" means nothing. Stick with the facts. Wipe the gun down, and you are fine.
You gotta love marketing.
Your "experience" means nothing. Stick with the facts. Wipe the gun down, and you are fine.
You gotta love marketing.
It's unfortunate that you got off on the wrong foot here. I have a feeling that the gate will be closed for you very soon. Nice knowing you. It was entertaining on so many levels.
ShortytheFirefighter
02-26-11, 11:52
Here's where we differ, apparently.
You seem to think that because you have had good luck with your 870 Express that it makes it the end all, be all of shotguns and that purchasing anything else makes that person less intelligent than you are.
There are plenty of users in this thread who have real world, hard use experience with these guns and have seen what works and what does not. They have more validation than you do, especially with what the OP is asking for. You've dealt with one, they've dealt with hundreds. I think they've got a lot more standing than you do on this, and that you should stop talking about things you don't have nearly as much experience with as other people do.
Their experience is a fact based on years of experience and hundreds of samples. You're spouting opinions based on your personal gun.
Army Chief
02-26-11, 12:04
Fair -- and final -- warning, gents: if the bickering continues, the hammer will fall. Please dial back the rhetoric and address (only) the facts.
AC
Your "experience" means nothing. Stick with the facts. Wipe the gun down, and you are fine.
You gotta love marketing.
I took the liberty of looking back through your posts and noticed an evolution. Your first posts were polite. You asked questions and accepted answers. You called your opinions opinions and were cordial when others disagreed. Then all of a sudden, your demeanor changed. An 870E HD was the ONLY gun to have and we are all fools for saying other wise. My hunch is that you have made your purchase and are now defending it to the death.
I also noticed some inconsistencies. You made posts that seem to ask about switching from 870s to semi-autos. Then you posted a question seeeming to ask about purchasing an 870 vs. an FN SLP. You wrote "money is no object" and "the only thing that WILL be used is 00 buck". Then you talk about using the FN and a Benelli. Then your posts go to using 870s for both hunting and HD.
I also noticed that you attended the pinnacle of firearms training, FrontSight. This all makes sense now. Direwulf is correct, I believe we will not have to suffer you for long. Take care.
Fair -- and final -- warning, gents: if the bickering continues, the hammer will fall. Please dial back the rhetoric and address (only) the facts.
AC
That has been my point all along. The only significant difference between an 870E and an 870P is the finish and a few $10 parts. Your 870E will not rust shut and get you killed if you simply wipe it down (basic gun care).
Facts.
That has been my point all along. The only significant difference between an 870E and an 870P is the finish and a few $10 parts. Your 870E will not rust shut and get you killed if you simply wipe it down (basic gun care).
Facts.
I'll try to explain this in the simplest terms possible. Just because you state a set of facts, doesn't mean that the ones that other people state are invalid. You have a belief based upon your experience. Other people have beliefs based on their experiences. The consensus of the information given here, gained though several decades of combined professional experience contradicts much of what you believe. You have these choices:
1) Tell everyone else that they are wrong and that your one man representative sample is the only valid point of view.
2) Call people liars by insinuating that what they've seen with their own eyes is B.S.
3) Ignore facts presented by professional armorers that you have no answer for and then demand a debate of the facts. All of your points have been addressed and countered. Whether you comprehend that is another story.
4) Ignore questions about the breadth of your knowledge and experience. (These questions help others who read this discussion give weight to your point of view as opposed to others.)
5) Acknowledge that although your gun has worked out well for you, there seems to be experiences that differ greatly across a wider sample than just one gun.
You've done the first four very well. Now how about following the rules instead of trying be the loudest voice in the room. You can learn a lot here, you just have to keep your ears open. I'm really trying to keep this from being locked, because there's a good discussion with a new member going on outside of your tirade.
Those, sir, are the facts.
Guys,
I could be wrong here but I think Rob has more than likely fired more shotgun rounds than most all of us combined. Rob points out the finish, extractor, the synthetic trigger group housing and the carrier dog spring as issues with the express line.
I think his experience echos what has been said here.
Your "experience" means nothing. Stick with the facts. Wipe the gun down, and you are fine.
You gotta love marketing.
Please read these threads.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70019
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54936
TheGreenRanger24
02-26-11, 16:59
You are correct, there are differences between the 870 E and 870P, but not as many as there used to be when that differences list was put out by Remington.
I see that list quoted frequently and feel it is misleading to do so without pointing out the updates. That is not intended as a dig at you or others as many people do not realize the list is not fully accurate anymore. Now that I have read the whole thread (whew!) I see that 70 did post the updated info; although, I would have probably done so in a different manner.
I'll admit I haven't paid as much attention to Express line here lately; it's good to hear Remington is giving them a little more attention. (Oh, I know your post wasn't meant as a dig at me or others, so no worries there.) :cool:
From my point of view and admittedly limited use as a civvy, if I were looking at getting a shotgun for dedicated home defense/duty use, I would look at getting the best from the get-go. Take a class with a either an 870P (or an 590a1) and see what works for you. If you decide later on that you want another 870 (for a trunk gun, fun gun, back-up, etc.), hopefully you will have the experience to know if upgrading an express would (or wouldn't) work for you. The point here is that getting the best will give you a base-line to work from for whatever future projects you might have.
On a side note: 70, is your express blued or is it one of the hunting camo painted ones? I don't know if that would make much of a difference when talking about rust, but I am curious.
Moose-Knuckle
02-26-11, 17:12
So I've narrowed it down to two guns. This might be unfair to the 590a1 but I cannot find one locally to handle.
I special ordered my 590 from a local Wal-Mart hunting counter of all places. Some stores have stopped selling firearms all together, while some, usually in rural areas will still sell them. Good luck in your query. . .
My express is the black matte finish. I have four. I timed myself. It takes less than two minutes to wipe down a gun. The rags always show brown on them due to surface rust whether they have been sitting in the safe or out in a wet duck blind. No big deal. My Benelli M1S90, M2, and Remington 700 do the exact same thing. Wipe it down if the rust bothers you. It does not effect function. Since everyone is into "experiences", I have seen guys dump 870E in saltwater marshes, shake it off, and continue to hunt. It is a pump shotgun. One guy even used his as a boat oar and it still worked.
What I object to is the self proclaimed experts telling people to "stay in their lane" when the FACTS are being discussed. I have no interest in who they think they are or their so called experience. The facts are all that matter. If you can't back up the position with facts, nothing has been proved. A gun is not worth nearly double because it has a few questionable $10 parts and a different finish because the finish really does not matter if a person practices basic gun care.
Moose-Knuckle
02-26-11, 18:09
My express is the black matte finish. I have four. I timed myself. It takes less than two minutes to wipe down a gun. The rags always show brown on them due to surface rust whether they have been sitting in the safe or out in a wet duck blind. No big deal. My Benelli M1S90, M2, and Remington 700 do the exact same thing. Wipe it down if the rust bothers you. It does not effect function. Since everyone is into "experiences", I have seen guys dump 870E in saltwater marshes, shake it off, and continue to hunt. It is a pump shotgun. One guy even used his as a boat oar and it still worked.
What I object to is the self proclaimed experts telling people to "stay in their lane" when the FACTS are being discussed. I have no interest in who they think they are or their so called experience. The facts are all that matter. If you can't back up the position with facts, nothing has been proved. A gun is not worth nearly double because it has a few questionable $10 parts and a different finish because the finish really does not matter if a person practices basic gun care.
This is M4C, you won't last long here, save it for GT or TOS.
This is M4C, you won't last long here, save it for GT or TOS.
I wouldn't worry too much. He'll die on this hill. That much is apparent.
Onward, what kind of wait time did you have for your 590 though WalMart and was there any up-charge for a special order? I'm thinking of picking up a bird gun from them.
Moose-Knuckle
02-26-11, 19:47
Onward, what kind of wait time did you have for your 590 though WalMart and was there any up-charge for a special order? I'm thinking of picking up a bird gun from them.
I ordered mine from there back in '00. If memory serves me correctly the lead time was around three to four weeks.
TheGreenRanger24
02-26-11, 20:42
Direwulf,
If you have a Dick's Sporting Good stores in your area, they could special order you a 590a1 (or 590s). I don't remember how long it takes for them to get in, but it seems like it was just a few weeks fwiw.
Direwulf,
If you have a Dick's Sporting Good stores in your area, they could special order you a 590a1 (or 590s). I don't remember how long it takes for them to get in, but it seems like it was just a few weeks fwiw.
I ordered mine from there back in '00. If memory serves me correctly the lead time was around three to four weeks.
Thanks guys. I've been looking at the Mossberg Bantam for my daughter for a few weeks now. I'm told Walmart is usually a good source for them, but I'll try Dick's too. If anyone has one of these and can give some feedback I'd appreciate a PM on it, so as not to derail this discussion. What drew me to it was the price and the fact that the stock was re-shaped and not just made shorter.
Just Kidding. I picked up the magnum marine I mentioned earlier.
It's lightly used and semi custom as far as I can tell.
What I do know is it has fiber optic rifle sights (obviously), oversized safety, honed and polished trigger (very smooth compared to an express model the gun shop had), and custom follower.
I was told that the extractor on the Marine is the same as the Police model. Not sure as to what else had been replaced/modified as I am not sure what to look for other than what I mentioned above.
With the exception of a good sling it is perfect for the time being. Hopefully after the class I will know what else needs to be done and works for me. Maybe a pistol grip? Light Mount?
I don't think I'll have to worry about my sweaty hands rusting this one.
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/senecanation1/DSC_0009.jpg
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Looks like whoever had it prior to you also swapped out the forend, so you can put a 6 shot side saddle on it if you like.
I'd also recommend a Hogue, SpeedFeed, or Remington "youth" or "body armor" buttstock. MUCH easier to use than the longer length of pull of the standard stock.
You're not shooting ducks with it.
The Hogue stocks are very comfortable. I've got a SpeedFeed on my 870P....if I had it to do over again I'd get the Hogue.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09059.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Rob%20Haught%20Shotgun%20Class%2012-13%20Sept%2009/RobHaughtShotgunClassTD19-12-09064.jpg
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TheGreenRanger24
02-27-11, 00:06
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q60/senecanation1/DSC_0002.jpg
Looks good! Put a light on it, shoot the snot out of it, and enjoy your class. :cool:
Nice score. I'd say you got a good all around gun for the needs you have and the harsh environment that you may be contending with. That nickel plating will last forever. I second the recommendation on a new stock. I'm partial to pistol grip stocks and I have Speedfeeds on both of mine. I'm not sure whether you're looking for a single point sling or a two-point, but Blue Force Gear has numerous configurations available and just about all the hardware you need. Daniel Defense makes a good Burnsed Loop should you desire a single point sling:
https://danieldefense.com/mounts-1/sling/remington-870-burnsed-loop-left-hand-shooter-212.html
If it were me, I'd contact Blue Force Gear and tell them what you're looking for. They're very helpful and they can point you in the right direction no matter what kind of sling you need. Their products are top notch and will hold up to hard use.
ChicagoTex
02-27-11, 01:22
Rest assured, that is not an MIM extractor.
870 MIM extractors have small linear indentations in them, forged extractors are solid.
That's an extremely nice find and a gun anyone on this forum (myself included) would be proud to run.
Nice score. I'd say you got a good all around gun for the needs you have and the harsh environment that you may be contending with. That nickel plating will last forever. I second the recommendation on a new stock. I'm partial to pistol grip stocks and I have Speedfeeds on both of mine. I'm not sure whether you're looking for a single point sling or a two-point, but Blue Force Gear has numerous configurations available and just about all the hardware you need. Daniel Defense makes a good Burnsed Loop should you desire a single point sling:
https://danieldefense.com/mounts-1/sling/remington-870-burnsed-loop-left-hand-shooter-212.html
If it were me, I'd contact Blue Force Gear and tell them what you're looking for. They're very helpful and they can point you in the right direction no matter what kind of sling you need. Their products are top notch and will hold up to hard use.
I've just started researching stocks and can't make up my mind as to if a pistol grip gives a bigger advantage than a straight stock. The Knoxx looks promising in terms of it's recoil reducing capability. I like the look of the traditional stock and it feels good mainly because I have more experience with hunting rifles.
The other advantage of the adjustable to the Antlad household is the Mrs. can shoot it as well. She just shouldered it a while ago and it was a bit cumbersome for her.
I'm sure this one has been beat to death on m4c but for some reason the search function is not working properly.
ChicagoTex
02-27-11, 02:41
I've just started researching stocks and can't make up my mind as to if a pistol grip gives a bigger advantage than a straight stock.
The straight stock is a popular choice for tactical shotguns because it's much easier to twist and support the gun in a twisted position for reloads, this is the key reason I run a straight stock on my 870.
My thoughts would be to shoot the class as the gun is and learn any shortcomings and how to fix them. I have a couple of buddies taking the Rob Haught here in VB in May. They are both knee deep in the arms race for what they think they need. After having been through this same thing, wait and see. Educated choices will help you from making the purchases twice.
I've just started researching stocks and can't make up my mind as to if a pistol grip gives a bigger advantage than a straight stock. The Knoxx looks promising in terms of it's recoil reducing capability. I like the look of the traditional stock and it feels good mainly because I have more experience with hunting rifles.
The other advantage of the adjustable to the Antlad household is the Mrs. can shoot it as well. She just shouldered it a while ago and it was a bit cumbersome for her.
I'm sure this one has been beat to death on m4c but for some reason the search function is not working properly.
Stick with the traditional stock for now, as others have suggested, and see how you like it. When it comes to stock types, you just have to try them out and see what works best for you and how they fulfill your needs. I've had pistol grips for ages and found that they gave me more control over the gun both in movement and in recoil management. I found this especially true in situations where I needed to keep the gun up with one hand while using the support hand to carry or drag. Granted, I was also wearing a lot of kit and body armor and that also plays a role in how well and where the stock stays put. Try yours out and see what you find.
ShortytheFirefighter
02-27-11, 19:04
Like I said earlier, I've got Knoxx stocks on both of mine. The recoil reduction is great, birdshot, buckshot and slugs all feel the same and the recoil is very much reduced. I can shoot slugs all day and be none the worse for wear afterwards. The adjustability is a huge plus, as my wife also shoots my shotguns and I've got over a foot of height on her. They both point naturally and the recoil reduction makes followup shots a breeze.
If you don't want to go to a pistol grip stock, you can also try the Knoxx CompStock if you still want the recoil reduction and you're willing to give up the adjustability. If you can try out a pistol gripped shotgun and compare it to yours then you'll have a better idea of what you want.
My Benelli Supernova has not let me down. Not a lot of accessories available though.
Supergrade
03-16-11, 16:53
One more vote for Benelli.
ChicagoTex
03-16-11, 17:39
My Benelli Supernova has not let me down. Not a lot of accessories available though.
One more vote for Benelli.
You guys know he already bought the Remington, right?
You guys know he already bought the Remington, right?
Just workin' on that post count...
ChicagoTex
03-17-11, 03:17
Just workin' on that post count...
Fair enough.
In your opinion is the police model 870 worth the extra $200 over the mossberg 590 A1?
I have shot quite a few Mossbergs while I was in the Navy...
That is why I only own Remington 870s
We had the 500s and they just seemed to rattle apart...
For what you described, any 870 (Express, Wingmaster, Police) with a 18" or 20" bead barrel will work for you. Just oil it up very well and fire 5-6 boxes of birdshot to get it broken in. Then, shoot some different buckshot and slug loads to see what it likes before you go to class.
Asked, answered, and purchased a while ago.
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