View Full Version : LMT vs LWRC
For my next toy I really want a piston setup. I can't however make up my mind between the LMT "CQB MRP Defender Piston 16" or the LWRC M6A2 or A3. I've obviously heard nothing bad about either company or rifle, but for two grand I would appreciate an educated word of advise. I want a complete rifle too, I don't want to build another AR right now. I did get to play with the LMT at my local store and I was extremely impressed with the tightness and overall quality feeling (if that makes sense) of the weapon. There was an immediate sense of "no wonder this thing is so much more expensive than my Rock River"! My intended purpose is just for the range. I'm not a warfighter anymore or even LEO, I'm just a former Jarhead turned fireman who loves guns and shootin 'em and have tax return money burnin a hole in my pocket! Thanks guys.
Semper Fi
Find ManBearPig!
02-23-11, 00:41
Oh no... every gun forum seems to have another version of this thread... DD VS BCM, Colt VS. Shrubmaster, Glock VS. 1911, Chevy VS. Ford, America VS. Canada... O.k, maybe not the last one.
Also, to save other forum members the trouble, Why do you need a piston gun?
First, you should ask yourself why you want a piston gun since the only advantage over DI is shooting a suppressed rifle, with a barrel less than 14 inches, on full-auto. Since you are not in a position as a civilian to shoot in this manner, you will not see a significant advantage over DI for the proprietary parts.
While both companies make fine weapons, I'd stick with the LMT if you must go piston. That way you can easily convert to DI once you realize that you made a mistake with the piston ;)
controlledpairs2
02-23-11, 00:47
"why do you want a piston gun?" is a very valid question.
if you decide that you do in fact want a piston AR, ive owned both LWRC and LMT. i like the fact that LMT's MRP allows for quick barrel change w the use of one torque wrench. other than that, both products are of top notch quality. flip a coin!
i use gas AR's now. i prefer their simplicity, and have experienced nothing short of flawless performance from my gas LMTs and Larues.
RancidSumo
02-23-11, 00:53
So I gather that currently the AR you own is a Rock River? If that is the case and you don't own a quality DI gun, I would buy a BCM (The only one of the lot I'm about to recommended that I actually own), DD, LMT (DI not piston), or Colt instead and save yourself $1000.
Other than that, please read the stickies. They will answer about 99% of questions that you may have without needing to start new threads that clutter up the forum.
Oh no... every gun forum seems to have another version of this thread... DD VS BCM, Colt VS. Shrubmaster, Glock VS. 1911, Chevy VS. Ford, America VS. Canada... O.k, maybe not the last one.
Also, to save other forum members the trouble, Why do you need a piston gun?
Sorry about the which brand is better question. Not what I was trying to do honestly. I know there's a lot of guys here with cool toys who know more about them than I do. My local store salesman told me that "LWRC is good because they say they are." also he did not have any in stock but the LMT was right there with the $2000 price tag. I guess I'm looking for an opinion from people who don't stand to make any money off of me.
And why do I "NEED" a piston gun??? I don't, I just want one. LOL. I like the idea of the "gunk" staying away from the BCG.
RancidSumo
02-23-11, 01:02
Sorry about the which brand is better question. Not what I was trying to do honestly. I know there's a lot of guys here with cool toys who know more about them than I do. My local store salesman told me that "LWRC is good because they say they are." also he did not have any in stock but the LMT was right there with the $2000 price tag. I guess I'm looking for an opinion from people who don't stand to make any money off of me.
And why do I "NEED" a piston gun??? I don't, I just want one. LOL. I like the idea of the "gunk" staying away from the BCG.
The "gunk" really isn't the problem that a lot of fuds make it out to be. You don't need to clean a DI gun religiously to make it work. I don't have anywhere near the round counts that many here have but I've put over 1000rds through my BCM without cleaning just by squirting some S2K in it every now and then. That isn't much, I know, but it is just my little example.
I wouldn't worry about that perceived weakness of DI guns. If you actually get out and shoot, you will see that detail stripping and cleaning your ARs after ever session at the range is not necessary and that DI gun will keep running just fine with minimal cleaning and plenty of lube.
First, you should ask yourself why you want a piston gun since the only advantage over DI is shooting a suppressed rifle, with a barrel less than 14 inches, on full-auto. Since you are not in a position as a civilian to shoot in this manner, you will not see a significant advantage over DI for the proprietary parts.
While both companies make fine weapons, I'd stick with the LMT if you must go piston. That way you can easily convert to DI once you realize that you made a mistake with the piston ;)
Thank you sir! I knew I could learn something from you guys. You're right, my days of full auto are well behind me. The DI version is $400 cheaper.
I assume that you are a Marine. You have also been brainwashed by some DI who told you to keep your M16 spotless or it will fail.
Unfortunately he is perpetrating a fraud that has been happening for a long time. As long as you keep your weapon lubed, it will continue to run as it should.
My SBR currently has just over 3500 rounds through it, most of all which have been fired suppressed. I have cleaned it approx. 2 times which consisted of wiping off the BCG and the inside of the upper, relubing and putting it back together.
So, unless you are running a suppressor or firing full auto as has been mentioned, you should save your money. Get a Colt 6920, BCM or DD and spend the extra money on ammuntion and magazines.
If someone gave me an LWRC I would immediately sell it and buy something useful.
Sorry about the which brand is better question. Not what I was trying to do honestly. I know there's a lot of guys here with cool toys who know more about them than I do. My local store salesman told me that "LWRC is good because they say they are." also he did not have any in stock but the LMT was right there with the $2000 price tag. I guess I'm looking for an opinion from people who don't stand to make any money off of me.
And why do I "NEED" a piston gun??? I don't, I just want one. LOL. I like the idea of the "gunk" staying away from the BCG.
So I gather that currently the AR you own is a Rock River? If that is the case and you don't own a quality DI gun, I would buy a BCM (The only one of the lot I'm about to recommended that I actually own), DD, LMT (DI not piston), or Colt instead and save yourself $1000.
Other than that, please read the stickies. They will answer about 99% of questions that you may have without needing to start new threads that clutter up the forum.
Yes, I do own a rock river. I picked it up for $700... I've got pistols that cost more than that. Couldn't pass it up. My RRA shoots fine, but it just feels like something's missing. Which is why I want a high end AR.
RancidSumo
02-23-11, 01:22
Yes, I do own a rock river. I picked it up for $700... I've got pistols that cost more than that. Couldn't pass it up. My RRA shoots fine, but it just feels lime something's missing. Which is why I want a high end AR.
Then I would definitely follow the advice of the much more knowledgeable man right above your post. Quality DI won't run you $2000, you are looking at closer to $1000.
I assume that you are a Marine. You have also been brainwashed by some DI who told you to keep your M16 spotless or it will fail.
Correct on both counts. I am a former Marine 1998-2002, and yes my drill instructors beat it into our heads that whenever you have down time, you should be cleaning your rifle. Still to this day I routinely clean all of my guns about once a month (fired or not) and after EVERY trip to the range. I suppose I can relax a bit now.
I was old school Army Infantry (1986-1991) and then Coast Guard later. I was also taught the cleanliness nonsense. Fortunately I was slapped in the face and came to realize it was unnecessary.
Correct on both counts. I am a former Marine 1998-2002, and yes my drill instructors beat it into our heads that whenever you have down time, you should be cleaning your rifle. Still to this day I routinely clean all of my guns about once a month (fired or not) and after EVERY trip to the range. I suppose I can relax a bit now.
I was old school Army Infantry (1986-1991) and then Coast Guard later. I was also taught the cleanliness nonsense. Fortunately I was slapped in the face and came to realize it was unnecessary.
Well they don't call us jarheads for nothin'. Wasn't the only thing that I was brainwashed with. Thankfully, most everything else has worn off. . . I think!
Thank you to all of you who posted and set me straight. I really do appreciate your time and for saving me money on the "cool factor".
variablebinary
02-23-11, 01:59
MRP over LWRC
I've owned both. LWRC was good, no real complaints, but the MRP offers vastly more
.........since the only advantage over DI is shooting a suppressed rifle, with a barrel less than 14 inches, on full-auto.
I don't believe that is necessarily true at this point and another tale used to perpetuate the perceived need by some folks for piston M16's.
DI shorties are much more dialed in than they were in the past with or w/o suppressors.
You Ain't Tracks You Ain't Shit...
Heed the advice of the gentlemen above, they won't steer you wrong. You can save ~$1000, to put towards ammo, optics, training, etc. going with a quality DI carbine.
I'd go with the LMT MRP but in DI and not piston. Of course that is what I want for my next AR, so buy two and send one my way.
You Ain't Tracks You Ain't Shit...
Heed the advice of the gentlemen above, they won't steer you wrong. You can save ~$1000, to put towards ammo, optics, training, etc. going with a quality DI carbine.
Ooh Rah Sgt!
0331, Machine Gunner right?
Semper Fi Devil.
Yes Sir
Best MOS in the Corps...
Haha
I'd go with the LMT MRP but in DI and not piston. Of course that is what I want for my next AR, so buy two and send one my way.
Sure, just pm me your address and I'll mail it right out!
Yes Sir
Best MOS in the Corps...
Haha
0317 sounds pretty fun too buddy!
Sure, just pm me your address and I'll mail it right out!
Man, it must be my lucky day, just like the other day, when I won the Nigerian lottery in the mail!!!
fivefivesix
02-23-11, 13:08
OP read this and decide. filthy 14
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf
http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/
gunk on the bolt, id buy a daniel defense or a bcm, a case of ammo and run it in a training class and let a high end di gun impress you
I thought the same thing about wanting a piston gun. Cleaner, less crud to worry about, runs cooler etc. I remember the days when we had to clean our weapons and they had to be spotless! I was in the Army from 85-89. No matter what you did you could always find gunk somewhere. In basic at the end of our cycle and we had to inventory everything and do that final weapons cleaning I think it took about 2-3 hrs to finally pass inspection. Unbelievable!!. Then I found this site. When I read all the threads and post about weapons not being cleaned for 1000's of rounds and running fine I almost didn't believe it. Over the history of this platform you have always heard that if it isn't clean it won't run. Well it's BS basically. Keeping the weapon wet/lubed is a big part of it. I remember qualifying during basic and my DI taking a big squirt bottle of CLP and basically drenching my BCG. My first thoughts were Gee Thanks now it's going to get gummed up with dirt right in the middle of qualifying and I will have to requalify or worse get a marksman score. When I read here that this platform runs best when wet that memory popped right back into my head with a great big AH HAA.
So I forgot about the Piston setup and went with a DI gun. The savings allowed me to get a good sight for my weapon. I've put about 2000 rounds down range and the only cleaning I've done is a quick wipe down of the BCP and then relube it.
As a couple of others have said here both LMT and LWRC make very good weapons. If you are set on those 2 then go for the LMT since it is easier to switch out barrels and even go back and forth from Piston to DI. DD, BCM, Noveske and Colt would be my choices for DI guns. Actually I have a buddy now that is getting his first M4 since he left the CG and he almost pulled the trigger on a Rock River weapon. Thankfully I was able to direct him here and to a few stickies to read. He's now flipping a coin between a DD or Colt weapon.
Read as much as you can on the site. There is an unbelievable amount of info here. A lot of it will contradict what we all were taught from basic on. It will really open up your eyes.
I thought the same thing about wanting a piston gun. Cleaner, less crud to worry about, runs cooler etc. I remember the days when we had to clean our weapons and they had to be spotless! I was in the Army from 85-89. No matter what you did you could always find gunk somewhere. In basic at the end of our cycle and we had to inventory everything and do that final weapons cleaning I think it took about 2-3 hrs to finally pass inspection. Unbelievable!!. Then I found this site. When I read all the threads and post about weapons not being cleaned for 1000's of rounds and running fine I almost didn't believe it. Over the history of this platform you have always heard that if it isn't clean it won't run. Well it's BS basically. Keeping the weapon wet/lubed is a big part of it. I remember qualifying during basic and my DI taking a big squirt bottle of CLP and basically drenching my BCG. My first thoughts were Gee Thanks now it's going to get gummed up with dirt right in the middle of qualifying and I will have to requalify or worse get a marksman score. When I read here that this platform runs best when wet that memory popped right back into my head with a great big AH HAA.
So I forgot about the Piston setup and went with a DI gun. The savings allowed me to get a good sight for my weapon. I've put about 2000 rounds down range and the only cleaning I've done is a quick wipe down of the BCP and then relube it.
As a couple of others have said here both LMT and LWRC make very good weapons. If you are set on those 2 then go for the LMT since it is easier to switch out barrels and even go back and forth from Piston to DI. DD, BCM, Noveske and Colt would be my choices for DI guns. Actually I have a buddy now that is getting his first M4 since he left the CG and he almost pulled the trigger on a Rock River weapon. Thankfully I was able to direct him here and to a few stickies to read. He's now flipping a coin between a DD or Colt weapon.
Read as much as you can on the site. There is an unbelievable amount of info here. A lot of it will contradict what we all were taught from basic on. It will really open up your eyes.
Man, Do I ever remember those days. Even when I got to my unit our Bn armorer would bust our balls and make us clean our weapons to the point of they looked like they were just off of Colt's assembly line!
I've even read posts here and on other forums that claimed several thousands of rounds had been fired through various weapons without cleaning. I remember thinking to myself "what idiots! He's going to ruin that weapon!" Old habits die hard. Especially when it stems from your DI or Gunny breathing down your neck. Call me sick, brainwashed, psycho or whatever but I actually like cleaning my guns.
My RRA came out of "Obama Scare" and because the store gave me the police discount because I'm a firefighter. It was my divorce present to myself. I still shoot 1 to 1.5" groups at 100 yards with it (100 is all my club has, but dues are cheap).
Are you shitting me? :p
Don't EVER support the scum that is LWRC... even if they actually made a gun half as good as their employees and friends claim on ALL the forums.... They're still scumbags.
Are you shitting me? :p
Don't EVER support the scum that is LWRC... even if they actually made a gun half as good as their employees and friends claim on ALL the forums.... They're still scumbags.
But, how do you really feel? Lol
My RRA came out of "Obama Scare" and because the store gave me the police discount because I'm a firefighter. It was my divorce present to myself. I still shoot 1 to 1.5" groups at 100 yards with it (100 is all my club has, but dues are cheap).
It's not that RRA's, Bushmasters, DPMS etc are such shitty weapons. It's more that your paying so much money for relatively poor quality weapons when for the same price you can have a weapon that has been put together in the proper manner. I equate it to what "Made in America" used to mean compared to what "Made in China" is. What is lacking in those weapons is so simple to do that it's a real shame they don't and are charging the prices they are. When you pay $700 like you did then it's really no big deal. You could make the upgrades youself for very little cost if you wanted to. If not, you still shoot the hell out of it with the realization of what you have. It's not like your shooting a Lorsen .380 or some other piece of crap weapon. It's more like a Taurus 1911 instead of a Wilson 1911 or some other top of the line weapon.
It's not that RRA's, Bushmasters, DPMS etc are such shitty weapons. It's more that your paying so much money for relatively poor quality weapons when for the same price you can have a weapon that has been put together in the proper manner. I equate it to what "Made in America" used to mean compared to what "Made in China" is. What is lacking in those weapons is so simple to do that it's a real shame they don't and are charging the prices they are. When you pay $700 like you did then it's really no big deal. You could make the upgrades youself for very little cost if you wanted to. If not, you still shoot the hell out of it with the realization of what you have. It's not like your shooting a Lorsen .380 or some other piece of crap weapon. It's more like a Taurus 1911 instead of a Wilson 1911 or some other top of the line weapon.
Ah crap! I've got the "Taurus" of AR's!!! Lol. I have done a few "upgrades" in fact only the receivers, BCG and trigger are original. Everything else is a hodgepodge of GG&G, Troy or YHM and a nikon scope.
Are you shitting me? :p
Don't EVER support the scum that is LWRC... even if they actually made a gun half as good as their employees and friends claim on ALL the forums.... They're still scumbags.
Man.... you really do track down all LWRC threads and bash away. Whats with all the hate man? Your pure hatred for LWRC sounds a little fishy. Have to say I have never seen someone who is so consistently butt hurt by a company.
Back to the original question, both are great guns. your choice between LMT and LWRC. :)
LMTPiston16
05-27-11, 11:03
Piston guns are FAR more reliable than DI carbines.
The LWRC M6A2 (A3), is one of the very best of the piston carbines, absolutely.
The LMT Piston 16 IS THE VERY BEST of the piston carbines, bar none. HK's 556, and Barrett's REC7, are comparable, but, to me, inferior.
I'll go into this much more in depth, a little later, as I just lost the long dissertation I was writing, addressing the specifics of this, and the specifics of why pistons are far better than DI weapons, and it's sure not just because "I don't have to clean it as much".
(and you DI lovers, don't even say that piston guns have "bolt carrier canting issues", as, even if some do, I'd much rather keep an eye on, and replace as necessary, the buffer tube, than have a weapon suddenly become inoperable, from a broken bolt, or extractor.)
I'll also touch on why LMT piston 16s are better than the HKs, and Barretts.
Leonidas24
05-27-11, 12:46
Piston guns are FAR more reliable than DI carbines.
The LWRC M6A2 (A3), is one of the very best of the DI carbines, absolutely.
The LMT Piston 16 IS THE VERY BEST of the piston carbines, bar none. HK's 556, and Barrett's REC7, are comparable, but, to me, inferior.
I'll go into this much more in depth, a little later, as I just lost the long dissertation I was writing, addressing the specifics of this, and the specifics of why pistons are far better than DI weapons, and it's sure not just because "I don't have to clean it as much".
(and you DI lovers, don't even say that piston guns have "bolt carrier canting issues", as, even if some do, I'd much rather keep an eye on, and replace as necessary, the buffer tube, than have a weapon suddenly become inoperable, from a broken bolt, or extractor.)
I'll also touch on why LMT piston 16s are better than the HKs, and Barretts.
LOL
To the OP: I'm right there with ya in having the cleaning regimen beaten into my skull. I was in the Army from 07-10 as an Infantryman and was solidly convinced that in order to run the M4 it had to be spotless, and I even went through a phase where I wanted an LMT piston and on top of that had one on order direct from LMT in 2009. Luckily the year long backorder dissuaded me and I ended up building my current rifle using Noveske, DD, and Rainier parts as far as the major components go at least. My rifle runs like a sewing machine and even after 1200 rds down the pipe without a major cleaning it still has yet to experience a gun related malfunction (except one FTF from using a bad batch of Tula).
I'd certainly take a look at the Daniel Defense rifles. They are works of art.
Piston guns are FAR more reliable than DI carbines.
The LWRC M6A2 (A3), is one of the very best of the DI carbines, absolutely.
The LMT Piston 16 IS THE VERY BEST of the piston carbines, bar none. HK's 556, and Barrett's REC7, are comparable, but, to me, inferior.
I'll go into this much more in depth, a little later, as I just lost the long dissertation I was writing, addressing the specifics of this, and the specifics of why pistons are far better than DI weapons, and it's sure not just because "I don't have to clean it as much".
(and you DI lovers, don't even say that piston guns have "bolt carrier canting issues", as, even if some do, I'd much rather keep an eye on, and replace as necessary, the buffer tube, than have a weapon suddenly become inoperable, from a broken bolt, or extractor.)
I'll also touch on why LMT piston 16s are better than the HKs, and Barretts.
I cant wait for this :). Just make sure you make your own thread okay.
OP. The LMT MRP DI guns are really cool and if you can afford it that would be a great buy. OR you can buy a Colt, BCM, DD or a standard LMT and save about a thousand buck which would buy you an Aimpoint and a case of good ammo.
jonconsiglio
05-27-11, 13:00
Piston guns are FAR more reliable than DI carbines.
The LWRC M6A2 (A3), is one of the very best of the DI carbines, absolutely.
The LMT Piston 16 IS THE VERY BEST of the piston carbines, bar none. HK's 556, and Barrett's REC7, are comparable, but, to me, inferior.
I'll go into this much more in depth, a little later, as I just lost the long dissertation I was writing, addressing the specifics of this, and the specifics of why pistons are far better than DI weapons, and it's sure not just because "I don't have to clean it as much".
(and you DI lovers, don't even say that piston guns have "bolt carrier canting issues", as, even if some do, I'd much rather keep an eye on, and replace as necessary, the buffer tube, than have a weapon suddenly become inoperable, from a broken bolt, or extractor.)
I'll also touch on why LMT piston 16s are better than the HKs, and Barretts.
Where have you been these past few years? To think, all this could have been answered years ago with your post. Thank you for setting all the experts straight. :rolleyes:
Piston guns are fine but absolutely not needed and not better than their DI counterparts. I had a 12" MRP and a 8" PSD. LMT hands down but I will not buy another piston AR.
Why has been covered numerous times, but I find my DI guns to be better shooters all around and save some weight on top of that. I put a lot of rounds through these guns and there was nothing a piston AR did better.
Now, if we're talking about the SCAR, for example, that's different, but there's no need for the piston guns, especially with what you give up over DI.
Hmm. I'm a little late, but it still should be a good show. Im gunna go make some crab cakes, this looks promising in terms of its entertainment value.
Littlelebowski
05-27-11, 13:42
From now on, I am going to encourage every one to buy an LWRC. I suggest the other forum regulars do the same because if we get Iraqgunz to time it right, we can get video of markm's head exploding :D
variablebinary
05-27-11, 14:54
I assume that you are a Marine. You have also been brainwashed by some DI who told you to keep your M16 spotless or it will fail.
I got a pretty good talking to by a Marine who is now a First Sergeant Soldier when I turned my weapon in and it was not clean or lubed to his standards.
I was given picks, brushes and rods, had to scrap every surface, and basically turn the weapon in borderline dry with one less layer of anodizing practically.
From now on, I am going to encourage every one to buy an LWRC. I suggest the other forum regulars do the same because if we get Iraqgunz to time it right, we can get video of markm's head exploding :D
LOL
Piston guns are FAR more reliable than DI carbines.
The LWRC M6A2 (A3), is one of the very best of the DI carbines, absolutely.
The LMT Piston 16 IS THE VERY BEST of the piston carbines, bar none. HK's 556, and Barrett's REC7, are comparable, but, to me, inferior.
I'll go into this much more in depth, a little later, as I just lost the long dissertation I was writing, addressing the specifics of this, and the specifics of why pistons are far better than DI weapons, and it's sure not just because "I don't have to clean it as much".
(and you DI lovers, don't even say that piston guns have "bolt carrier canting issues", as, even if some do, I'd much rather keep an eye on, and replace as necessary, the buffer tube, than have a weapon suddenly become inoperable, from a broken bolt, or extractor.)
I'll also touch on why LMT piston 16s are better than the HKs, and Barretts.
Say what? An LWRC m6a2(a3) is not a DI rifle. You expect us to take you seriously on why an lmt piston is the "VERY BESTESTSSSSSESTEST" when you don't even know that an lwrc is also a short stroke piston?
I own BOTH the m6a2 and lmt piston. You obviously praise the lmt piston because that's the one you bought.
Piston guns are FAR more reliable than DI carbines.
The LWRC M6A2 (A3), is one of the very best of the DI carbines, absolutely.
The LMT Piston 16 IS THE VERY BEST of the piston carbines, bar none. HK's 556, and Barrett's REC7, are comparable, but, to me, inferior.
I'll go into this much more in depth, a little later, as I just lost the long dissertation I was writing, addressing the specifics of this, and the specifics of why pistons are far better than DI weapons, and it's sure not just because "I don't have to clean it as much".
(and you DI lovers, don't even say that piston guns have "bolt carrier canting issues", as, even if some do, I'd much rather keep an eye on, and replace as necessary, the buffer tube, than have a weapon suddenly become inoperable, from a broken bolt, or extractor.)
I'll also touch on why LMT piston 16s are better than the HKs, and Barretts.
Is this guy for real?
Is this guy for real?
"In his mind" i'm sure what he has to say is very real.:rolleyes:
I have no personal experience with LWRC but,
Here is Frogmans' opinion on LWRC from the Tactical Forums:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=56;t=001600#000000
The company cannot be trusted to keep your system running, in my opinion. The piston spring will break (when it breaks) with no predictability. when it does it will likely break the piston cup and possibly bend the piston rod.
In combat, the gun is done, at that point.
If you break something you will need to send the whole upper back to LWRCI for repair.
I recommend an HK 416, FN SCAR, or Colt DI gun instead of an LWRCI in 5.56 or 7.62 mm at this time.
I once consulted for LWRCI but cannot recommend their products now. Neither do several other former consultants for LWRCI with actual combat experience.
The company is just too flakey to deal with for serious users. To my knowledge there is no one intimately involved with LWRCI who has actually been in combat that is advising them now. They're pretty much on their own as far as real experience goes at the company level, (which gives them a sum of "0") and have a reputation for promoting themseleves through self made sock puppets on the internet (i.e the many personas of Darren Mellors). There have been several failures with the DEA FAST contract (some of them on target and in combat in Afghanistan) which LWRCI has kept very low. It is doubtful that they will see many more future sales to DEA in the wake of these shortcomings. If they do it will be in very small quantities.
Frogman
I was using their products and putting quite a lot of ammo through them (an M6A1 and M6A2 upper).
The SABR/REPR project was executed poorly in my opinion. The 5.56mm M6's ran pretty good, but there were issues that could only be attributed to work performed at the company that popped up now and again. I was in and out of the company frequently enough that those shortfalls didn't wear me out, but a normal customer would have had to send their entire weapon back to the company every time something happened, and I'll bet that would get old real fast.
The actual M6 series is pretty cool and the shortcomings it has with occasional piston spring breakage could probably be sorted out. Their barrels and the nickel boron coating on the bolts are oustanding. The M6 really could be introduced to the military if worksmanship was consistant.
Sadly, I just can't recommend that a military unit buy them because the company does not embrace basic military values (i.e. punctuality, good communication, well documented testing...etc) and ultimately was just not that great to deal with. There are some awesome individuals there and I wish them well. The company business SOP's just never improved.
The change of heart really took place almost a year ago; in fact I was last paid by LWRCI for representing them at the 2009 SHOT Show. I haven't been in a big hurry to put that info out there.
All of that said, my friend, Jeff Gonzales has spec’d a gun out for Trident Concepts and is happy with both the gun and his interaction with the company last I checked.
You’re right about DI guns. They are good to go in my book. I've been using a Colt 6920 for most of my training these days. I still shoot my issued 416 and have topped my personal LWRCI SBR lower with an HK 416 upper.
Frogman
William B.
05-27-11, 17:20
Nevermind... :rolleyes:
LMTPiston16
05-27-11, 18:44
Hey badness,
I can’t tell you how embarrassing it is to have made a mistake like that, but, that being said, I’ll get back on why I prefer the LMT piston gun over the others.
In short, I love a “quick change” barrel, that’s got no threads to distort from overheating. I love the Mike Rock barrels that are .750” thick under the handguard, not .625 like the standard M4. I love the fit of the uppers to the lower of even the unmatched uppers and lowers (if you buy the gun complete, they have “matched uppers to lowers”. I didn’t believe it either, but the nine complete guns I bought are rock solid, with absolutely no play at all, whereas the other six guns I bought and installed the uppers on later, have a very little bit of play, still, much less that any Colt, Bushmaster, or Yankee Hill gun I’ve ever owned, or “played with”. Of course I also love the one piece monolithic upper, instead of the best alternative of something like the Daniel Defense, which is great, but no nearly as good. And I just really love the quality of the workmanship, compared to something like a Colt, which has greatly degraded, and now seems to just ride on their name.
And the LMT piston 16 IS the “one” I bought, after looking over the HK and Barrett. And actually, I bought fifteen of them, for my son and my own personal use, and of course, for “safe queens”.
Piston guns are FAR more reliable than DI carbines.
The LWRC M6A2 (A3), is one of the very best of the piston carbines, absolutely.
The LMT Piston 16 IS THE VERY BEST of the piston carbines, bar none. HK's 556, and Barrett's REC7, are comparable, but, to me, inferior.
I'll go into this much more in depth, a little later, as I just lost the long dissertation I was writing, addressing the specifics of this, and the specifics of why pistons are far better than DI weapons, and it's sure not just because "I don't have to clean it as much".
(and you DI lovers, don't even say that piston guns have "bolt carrier canting issues", as, even if some do, I'd much rather keep an eye on, and replace as necessary, the buffer tube, than have a weapon suddenly become inoperable, from a broken bolt, or extractor.)
I'll also touch on why LMT piston 16s are better than the HKs, and Barretts.
Uhm no. The biggest reason why piston guns (all piston guns) are not the best option is because of the lack of available parts. If you break a part on an AR, it is easy to get a spare. Not so much for a piston gun.
This fact alone is a deal killer (without even getting into the increased weight, less accuracy, more felt recoil, cost, etc).
C4
LMTPiston16
05-27-11, 18:57
Hello jonconsiglio
Of course, no one “needs” a piston in their AR, nor do they “need” the DI system.
My intention was not to set all the ”experts” (no dought, yourself included) straight, but to voice my opinion that, piston guns are a lot more reliable that DI guns. (and yes, I thought the LWRC was a DI gun)
As you surely know, the carbines, less than 16”, are far less reliable than the rifles, because the hot gases containing all the unburnt powder residues are greatly increased in the carbines. So they run much dirtier. They also run much hotter, because there is much less time for it to cool. The rate of fire is a lot greater too, because of the shorter dwell time, which makes it a lot harder for the greatly overheated bolt carrier group, and extractor, to do their job properly. The short dwell time, and faster cyclic rate make the weapon cycle much harder too. The problems of breakages usually happen to weapons that are run hard, for relatively long periods of time. In addition, you may be interested to know that Special Operations Command asked LMT to design a weapon to address the issue they were having with the barrel threads of their M4 carbines distorting, and throwing the point of impact off, so LMT designed their Piston 16, which has no threads, as it is a quick disconnect type barrel.
That being said, I’ve got a few LMT 10.5 DI guns, and have had absolutely no problems with them, neither have I had any problems with my Bushmaster 16” carbine. But I don’t run them in the manner in which I am referring to either.
While a DI gun is slightly lighter “up front”, and has a little bit more mass to move upon firing, that, to me, in no way overcomes the major disadvantages of having the action cycled by superheated, grimey gases, that make the weapon run much hotter, harder, dirtier, and faster, that is could if it had a piston, as any Squad Automatic would have. Why do you think all SAWs have pistons?
I guess a DI gun, would, at least in theory, be a little more accurate, since it got less moving mass, and since it’s “a little lighter up front”, you could hold it up a few seconds longer, but, other than that, I can think of no advantages of a DI system over a piston system.
But then, I’m sure you knew all that.
Hello jonconsiglio
piston guns are a lot more reliable that DI guns.
As you surely know, the carbines, less than 16”, are far less reliable than the rifles
Ah, no and no.
LMTPiston16
05-27-11, 19:03
Excellent point!
Interesting thread so far especially when LWRCi built a M6 line specifically from a former Navy Seal- J. Gonzales.
Traveshamockery
05-27-11, 19:46
Hello jonconsiglio
Of course, no one “needs” a piston in their AR, nor do they “need” the DI system.
My intention was not to set all the ”experts” (no dought, yourself included) straight, but to voice my opinion that, piston guns are a lot more reliable that DI guns. (and yes, I thought the LWRC was a DI gun)
As you surely know, the carbines, less than 16”, are far less reliable than the rifles, because the hot gases containing all the unburnt powder residues are greatly increased in the carbines. So they run much dirtier. They also run much hotter, because there is much less time for it to cool. The rate of fire is a lot greater too, because of the shorter dwell time, which makes it a lot harder for the greatly overheated bolt carrier group, and extractor, to do their job properly. The short dwell time, and faster cyclic rate make the weapon cycle much harder too. The problems of breakages usually happen to weapons that are run hard, for relatively long periods of time. In addition, you may be interested to know that Special Operations Command asked LMT to design a weapon to address the issue they were having with the barrel threads of their M4 carbines distorting, and throwing the point of impact off, so LMT designed their Piston 16, which has no threads, as it is a quick disconnect type barrel.
That being said, I’ve got a few LMT 10.5 DI guns, and have had absolutely no problems with them, neither have I had any problems with my Bushmaster 16” carbine. But I don’t run them in the manner in which I am referring to either.
While a DI gun is slightly lighter “up front”, and has a little bit more mass to move upon firing, that, to me, in no way overcomes the major disadvantages of having the action cycled by superheated, grimey gases, that make the weapon run much hotter, harder, dirtier, and faster, that is could if it had a piston, as any Squad Automatic would have. Why do you think all SAWs have pistons?
I guess a DI gun, would, at least in theory, be a little more accurate, since it got less moving mass, and since it’s “a little lighter up front”, you could hold it up a few seconds longer, but, other than that, I can think of no advantages of a DI system over a piston system.
But then, I’m sure you knew all that.
Almost every objection you're putting out there is only a (potential) issue with automatic fire.
The reason the SAW has a piston is the same reason it has a quick-change barrel. It's designed for a very high volume of sustained fire. It's designed with suppression, not accuracy in mind. A SAW isn't an assault rifle. M4s don't have a piston for the same reason an M4 doesn't have a bipod.
Your academic hangup on the theoretical negative effects of "dirty, grimy gases" cycling the bolt has little to no basis in reality. As many forum members far more respected than I have repeatedly reported, the DI system is remarkably reliable in quality weapons. There's just not much evidence that the scary hot gases making the bolt move fast are a problem in the real world, and there's even less evidence that piston systems provide a measurable improvement in this regard.
Fast cyclic rates can be addressed a number of different ways, including using a mid-length gas system.
LMTPiston16
05-27-11, 20:22
Thanks for your reply. My point was just as you said. That when you “run them in the manner in which I am referring to”, which is rapid fire, over sustained periods of time, a piston (especially one with a quick change barrel) is superior to a DI system, hence the reason all SAWs use them. Pretty straight forward fact. And of course, DI guns run reliably, except when they are run very hard, and long, they are more prone to failures than a piston gun. Those “scary” hot gases are the main reason for the heat related failures. Of course I realize that fast cyclic rates can be addressed in several different ways, but my point is that, the faster cyclic rate, and increased cycling violence, in conjunction with the significantly increased heat, and dirt, produce an environment of reduced reliability. That’s all I’m saying, believe it or not. And thanks for keeping it civil, as many other can’t don’t seem to know enough for an intelligent discussion, and revert to stupid comments instead. Thanks again
And thanks for keeping it civil, as many other can’t don’t seem to know enough for an intelligent discussion, and revert to stupid comments instead.
Awww hell yeah this is great stuff.
El Pistolero
05-27-11, 21:05
And thanks for keeping it civil, as many other can’t don’t seem to know enough for an intelligent discussion, and revert to stupid comments instead. Thanks again
LOL!
Two words for you: PROOF READ.
I'll also touch on why LMT piston 16s are better than the HKs, and Barretts.
The only reason why the LMT is better than other piston weapons is because it is easily converted to DI.
Magic_Salad0892
05-27-11, 21:34
Hello jonconsiglio
Of course, no one “needs” a piston in their AR, nor do they “need” the DI system.
My intention was not to set all the ”experts” (no dought, yourself included) straight, but to voice my opinion that, piston guns are a lot more reliable that DI guns. (and yes, I thought the LWRC was a DI gun)
As you surely know, the carbines, less than 16”, are far less reliable than the rifles, because the hot gases containing all the unburnt powder residues are greatly increased in the carbines. So they run much dirtier. They also run much hotter, because there is much less time for it to cool. The rate of fire is a lot greater too, because of the shorter dwell time, which makes it a lot harder for the greatly overheated bolt carrier group, and extractor, to do their job properly. The short dwell time, and faster cyclic rate make the weapon cycle much harder too. The problems of breakages usually happen to weapons that are run hard, for relatively long periods of time. In addition, you may be interested to know that Special Operations Command asked LMT to design a weapon to address the issue they were having with the barrel threads of their M4 carbines distorting, and throwing the point of impact off, so LMT designed their Piston 16, which has no threads, as it is a quick disconnect type barrel.
That being said, I’ve got a few LMT 10.5 DI guns, and have had absolutely no problems with them, neither have I had any problems with my Bushmaster 16” carbine. But I don’t run them in the manner in which I am referring to either.
While a DI gun is slightly lighter “up front”, and has a little bit more mass to move upon firing, that, to me, in no way overcomes the major disadvantages of having the action cycled by superheated, grimey gases, that make the weapon run much hotter, harder, dirtier, and faster, that is could if it had a piston, as any Squad Automatic would have. Why do you think all SAWs have pistons?
I guess a DI gun, would, at least in theory, be a little more accurate, since it got less moving mass, and since it’s “a little lighter up front”, you could hold it up a few seconds longer, but, other than that, I can think of no advantages of a DI system over a piston system.
But then, I’m sure you knew all that.
I've argued this. I've gone this route, and I can tell you. After making the switch to DI guns, I cannot ever recommend pistons again. And I run exclusively suppressed short barrelled guns. (11.1'' + KAC suppressors)
The piston guns I had showed absolutely NO signs of accuracy problems with quality ammunition. They also showed no reliability problems. I'll start by adding that...
DI guns weigh less, and have more options for barrels, fore ends, and have better options for M203 mounting. DI guns generally have a better recoil impulse, and if the recoil impulse is too much, there are multiple things that can be done to alter it. While at the same time increasing reliability, and optimizing it for the type of ammunition intended. The DI AR-15 is a gunfighters gun, meant specifically to be tailored to the operators needs, and I'll say the same thing about it as I do a 1911.
All perceived problems of the DI system, are due to improperly built guns, or operator error.
Excessive fouling in the M4 rifle is a complete and total myth/misunderstanding.
Proof? Filthy 14, and Mike Pannone's experience, and expertise.
''grimy hot gases'' are not a problem. If you can name a single gun, in a military or civilian role, that was used as it was intended to be used and failed specifically because of the gas system I will admit you are right, and GPs are better and all.
I do have to ask, why do you like heavy barrels more? I used to be in that camp, and will never go back.
I also question the integrity, and validity of your claims that M4 barrel threads burned off, and LMT was asked by a military entity to develop the MRP.
I would like proof.
I get the distinct impression that you are simply trolling here. Consider this notice that you are under the microscope like a biology project.
Thanks for your reply. My point was just as you said. That when you “run them in the manner in which I am referring to”, which is rapid fire, over sustained periods of time, a piston (especially one with a quick change barrel) is superior to a DI system, hence the reason all SAWs use them. Pretty straight forward fact. And of course, DI guns run reliably, except when they are run very hard, and long, they are more prone to failures than a piston gun. Those “scary” hot gases are the main reason for the heat related failures. Of course I realize that fast cyclic rates can be addressed in several different ways, but my point is that, the faster cyclic rate, and increased cycling violence, in conjunction with the significantly increased heat, and dirt, produce an environment of reduced reliability. That’s all I’m saying, believe it or not. And thanks for keeping it civil, as many other can’t don’t seem to know enough for an intelligent discussion, and revert to stupid comments instead. Thanks again
Thanks for your reply. My point was just as you said. That when you “run them in the manner in which I am referring to”, which is rapid fire, over sustained periods of time, a piston (especially one with a quick change barrel) is superior to a DI system, hence the reason all SAWs use them. Pretty straight forward fact. And of course, DI guns run reliably, except when they are run very hard, and long, they are more prone to failures than a piston gun. Those “scary” hot gases are the main reason for the heat related failures. Of course I realize that fast cyclic rates can be addressed in several different ways, but my point is that, the faster cyclic rate, and increased cycling violence, in conjunction with the significantly increased heat, and dirt, produce an environment of reduced reliability. That’s all I’m saying, believe it or not. And thanks for keeping it civil, as many other can’t don’t seem to know enough for an intelligent discussion, and revert to stupid comments instead. Thanks again
Not an expert here, but here's what I get out of this,
An AR-15 or M4 is an assault rifle( or carbine), not a LMG. That is like saying Toyota should replace their Prius's fuel efficient hybrid engines for something like a 6.6l Duramax Diesel for better towing and hauling capacity!
....
.... And the LMT piston 16 IS the “one” I bought, after looking over the HK and Barrett. And actually, I bought fifteen of them, for my son and my own personal use, and of course, for “safe queens”.
=========================================
Y'all, Help me fill in the blank..., "One is none and fifteen is ______??"
.
=========================================
Y'all, Help me fill in the blank..., "One is none and fifteen is ______??"
.
bullshit? :confused::confused::D:D:D:jester::jester::jester::jester:
.
YATYAS,
As others have said, "A Piston AR is the solution to an unknown problem."
Sell your RRA, pool that money w/ your tax money, buy a basic DI AR from LMT, DD, BCM, Colt, or Noveske. Put an Aimpoint T-1 on it, get a bunch of mags, a 2-pt. sling, and shoot the heck out of it. Then, maybe pickup a target upper from one of the same companies with a nice scope and you'll be set...temporarily... :)
But maybe it's just me...
.
Wow! I had no idea what kind of sh*t storm I was starting when I posted my question. For that I apologize, however, I would like to thank all of you again for your input. I did buy the MRP DI and I am extremely pleased. This is an incredible weapon! I paid $1500 including shipping and my cost for FFL. Now I gotta figure out what the hell I wanna look through on top of it!
Now I gotta figure out what the hell I wanna look through on top of it!
Checkout the Aimpoint T-1 or H-1.
This video shows the ruggedness of the DD and Aimpoint T-1. But I'm sure any Aimpoint will due.
https://danieldefense.com/TortureTest
LMTPiston16
05-28-11, 19:56
Very good defense of your viewpoint. That’s refreshing. The “Filthy 14” article was very good, and I’m probably belaboring the point a bit too much, but, I was referring to DI guns used almost as a Squad Automatic, not in their real intended role of “assault rifle”.
I like heavy barrels, because I do like to run my guns (just one or two of them) very hard, for extended periods, almost, but not quite, like a SAW. So I love pistons, quick change barrels, and a heavier barrel.
The story of Special Operations Command came from an article in one of the big gun mags, in an article about the LMT piston guns, although it may be untrue. It did say that the point of aim on some of the SOC carbines was off after using the guns hard and long, and that they examined the guns and found barrel thread distortion was to blame. I know for darn sure that DI guns heat the chambers, BCGs, and barrel thread areas A LOT more than piston guns, so I believe it, but, it could be just a story.
Thanks
LMTPiston16
05-28-11, 20:04
That sums it up very well. Very good point. Thanks.
Let me just say that anything you read in a gun rag, is suspicious at best. For example- If you read the new edition of the Shotgun News Treasury there is an article about a gun maker in AZ who "accurized" an M4 for a service member to bring on a deployment to Afghanistan.
Maybe the editors of the magazine believe that shit, but no one in the real world does. There is no way in hell that some random service member was allowed to bring a privately owned weapon on a deployment. As a matter of fact it is expressly prohibited. So it may have been a good read for the masses, but that's about it.
Very good defense of your viewpoint. That’s refreshing. The “Filthy 14” article was very good, and I’m probably belaboring the point a bit too much, but, I was referring to DI guns used almost as a Squad Automatic, not in their real intended role of “assault rifle”.
I like heavy barrels, because I do like to run my guns (just one or two of them) very hard, for extended periods, almost, but not quite, like a SAW. So I love pistons, quick change barrels, and a heavier barrel.
The story of Special Operations Command came from an article in one of the big gun mags, in an article about the LMT piston guns, although it may be untrue. It did say that the point of aim on some of the SOC carbines was off after using the guns hard and long, and that they examined the guns and found barrel thread distortion was to blame. I know for darn sure that DI guns heat the chambers, BCGs, and barrel thread areas A LOT more than DI guns, so I believe it, but, it could be just a story.
Thanks
LMTPiston16
05-28-11, 20:12
The fifteen number is true, I didn’t buy them all at once, they are for my son and I, I have my own reasons why I bought so many, and why would you guys even care. I never should have mentioned it.
The fifteen number is true, I didn’t buy them all at once, they are for my son and I, I have my own reasons why I bought so many, and why would you guys even care. I never should have mentioned it.
No one really cares how you spend your money. But when someone says they spent somewhere near 30k on a bunch of the same rifle it does sound a bit BS-ish.
As far as you liking your pistons thats fine. But dont come around here, where there are several if not dozens of guys here who use these types of weapons for a living, and start talking about how one thing is better than the other without some documented proof to back it up.
The piston rifles have the capability to become a great system. But 40+ years of military service has shown the M16/M4/AR15 to be a very reliable and effective weapon system. The big problem with the piston systems currently is the lack of a proven standard. Every manufacturer has their own design. The only design that has seen widespread combat is the HK 416 and they have shown to have some problems.
That brings us to the next problem with the pistons and the biggest reason I wouldnt take one into harms way. We dont know all of the kinks in the system of the piston ARs. Millions of the AR rifles have been produced and we know what the problems are.
Im not saying the piston is a bad operating system. I believe they work well if the rifle is built to use a piston in the first place like the FAL, M14 or SCAR. Shoe horning one into a rifle that wasnt designed for it causes problems.
soapboxpreacherman
05-28-11, 22:01
Checkout the Aimpoint T-1 or H-1.
This video shows the ruggedness of the DD and Aimpoint T-1. But I'm sure any Aimpoint will due.
https://danieldefense.com/TortureTest
Ok, I love DD stuff but this torture test does zero for me...Larry puts tape over the muzzle (this is a FLAWED test entirely)...both when he puts it in the dirt and in the water. He lets it drain fully before shooting it as well...in a battle you might not have that time to allow it to drain...more on this later. Shotgun and explosion test...ok I love it! That impresses me. I have shot both DI and Piston (own both too)...I know own a KAC and love it. But knock the pistons all you want, it doesnt take much lube, will function if pulled from the water or mud, dirt has a lesser effect on the BCG because of less oil have dirt getting into it and causing it not to cycle, and yes they do run cleaner (BCG but they still get dirty in the piston but that is easier to clean based on me cleaning both after same amount of rounds), but that is where the differences really span. If you are in the sandbox or special forces...get an HK416. But for a recreational shooter DI more than fine. I hate the weight of a 416 but I would probably pick it over a Colt. If I didnt know what conditions I was fighting in, wet, cold, damp, sand, etc...HK for me. Just my preference but that is based on the SCAR trials where the colt had 6x more stoppage to a SCAR or Hk416. I like the weight and balance of the scar and the colt far better and between the two I would pick the SCAR...flame away colt fans. Stoppage = death! Now this is obviously if I were going to battle. Many of our boys were found dead next to their jammed M16 during vietnam, DI was never tested before it was deployed. The difference in a DI to a piston is since the DI has been around so long we know what to expect of it, what it needs and how it fails...piston ARs..not so much.
I have seen torture test from Sig with the 516 that is very similar to the DD one if not harder. I have seen an ACR dragged behind a humvee for a mile then shot fine...these test are a dime a dozen. If you are a recreation shooter they dont matter. Even those that knock the RRA they make a very good trigger and an excellent barrel. The MOA is better then a Colt. I dont know why but our side by side range test, same day, same temp, same ammo, every shooter behind both had tighter MOA on the RRA then the colt. Colt had a nicer fit and finish but wasnt as accurate...period! And I like colts..I did not like seeing that but I did.
I want to leave you with these videos for it will show you one significant advantage but this to me doesnt apply to the recreational shooter...even the competitive shooter for we will never use these weapons as they are used in a battle. Nor do I play with my Sr15 in the tube on a Sunday afternoon with calgon! So it doesnt matter. Check this out:
HK416 vs Colt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU
ACR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWvCc77wvk&NR=1
DI has a 40 year head start, we know its strengths and weakness. It certain isnt problem free niether is piston. If I were to buy over I would have done a BCM or DD and KAC (have) for DI, a SCAR or PWS MK114 for piston. Had an ACR loved the simple design and function of it but it was heavy and unbalanced. It breaks downs well, has very few parts and requires little to no tools! To charge the rifle your cheek never needs to leave the stock which mean your eyes dont have to leave the target. Ergos were the best of any rifle...I hated the weight and balance so much I had to get rid of it. If Scrubmaster/Rem lighten her up I am on board!!! Flame away, my opinion and you cant take that away from me...handle and shoot them all, I have shot most, RRA, Colt, ACR, KAC, SCAR, Ruger, etc just my opinion I only have extensive on a few but I know what I like and why I like it. Just my two cents...I will get off my soapbox now. HAHA...more Jimmy Beam please..cya
I think 0321 sounds pretty great but then 03 is pretty great all around. 13 was not too painful. Oh and another vote for DI unless you are shooting a lot of suppressed or full auto.
0317 sounds pretty fun too buddy!
Soapboxpreacherman...... The problems with the M16 in vietnam was not from the DI system. It was from the military deviating from the rifles original design and parameters. It they took out the chrome lined chamber and used a different kind of powder than it was built to use.
Also when they re did the sandstorm test with a properly maintained M4 and all the rifles using the same magazine, the M4 did much better.
I got a pretty good talking to by a Marine who is now a First Sergeant Soldier when I turned my weapon in and it was not clean or lubed to his standards.
I was given picks, brushes and rods, had to scrap every surface, and basically turn the weapon in borderline dry with one less layer of anodizing practically.
Been there too. I saw all kinds of weird shit at weapons turned in. Anyone else ever seen the back of a gum wrapper used? The side with the silver rubbed against metal will transfer over and cover up patina. Some of our weapons had almost no finish on them from over cleaning.
Your post is so run together, that it's hard to pick it apart and make sense of it. So I'll do what I can.
Taping the muzzle is valid for the simple fact that many units still issue protective muzzle caps. My guess is that they didn't have one.
I think that the draining thing was simply an additional safety measure that they took. In any case people that have been in the military know that you are taught to keep the weapon out of the water whenever possible. And I am pretty sure that if you were to simply cant the weapon and slightly pull the chraging handle to the rear you could safely drain it. Also- see protective muzzle cap again.
Unless you are or have been a member of "Special Forces" or have been in the "sandbox" I don't know how you can recommend an Hk416. In fact, I would much rather have an M4 as I can find parts for it at most bases.
Most of your babble seems to be based off of the so-called dusts test that I think to a degree were flawed and most experienced people would probably tend to agree.
Your Vietnam analogy is uneducated at best which means you are simple being a parrot.
M4's are plenty accurate and those who have trigger time behind them know that. I would much rather have a Colt M4 that will work than an accurate RRA that doesn't.
Everything else is just more babble and nonsense.
Ok, I love DD stuff but this torture test does zero for me...Larry puts tape over the muzzle (this is a FLAWED test entirely)...both when he puts it in the dirt and in the water. He lets it drain fully before shooting it as well...in a battle you might not have that time to allow it to drain...more on this later. Shotgun and explosion test...ok I love it! That impresses me. I have shot both DI and Piston (own both too)...I know own a KAC and love it. But knock the pistons all you want, it doesnt take much lube, will function if pulled from the water or mud, dirt has a lesser effect on the BCG because of less oil have dirt getting into it and causing it not to cycle, and yes they do run cleaner (BCG but they still get dirty in the piston but that is easier to clean based on me cleaning both after same amount of rounds), but that is where the differences really span. If you are in the sandbox or special forces...get an HK416. But for a recreational shooter DI more than fine. I hate the weight of a 416 but I would probably pick it over a Colt. If I didnt know what conditions I was fighting in, wet, cold, damp, sand, etc...HK for me. Just my preference but that is based on the SCAR trials where the colt had 6x more stoppage to a SCAR or Hk416. I like the weight and balance of the scar and the colt far better and between the two I would pick the SCAR...flame away colt fans. Stoppage = death! Now this is obviously if I were going to battle. Many of our boys were found dead next to their jammed M16 during vietnam, DI was never tested before it was deployed. The difference in a DI to a piston is since the DI has been around so long we know what to expect of it, what it needs and how it fails...piston ARs..not so much.
I have seen torture test from Sig with the 516 that is very similar to the DD one if not harder. I have seen an ACR dragged behind a humvee for a mile then shot fine...these test are a dime a dozen. If you are a recreation shooter they dont matter. Even those that knock the RRA they make a very good trigger and an excellent barrel. The MOA is better then a Colt. I dont know why but our side by side range test, same day, same temp, same ammo, every shooter behind both had tighter MOA on the RRA then the colt. Colt had a nicer fit and finish but wasnt as accurate...period! And I like colts..I did not like seeing that but I did.
I want to leave you with these videos for it will show you one significant advantage but this to me doesnt apply to the recreational shooter...even the competitive shooter for we will never use these weapons as they are used in a battle. Nor do I play with my Sr15 in the tube on a Sunday afternoon with calgon! So it doesnt matter. Check this out:
HK416 vs Colt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU
ACR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWvCc77wvk&NR=1
DI has a 40 year head start, we know its strengths and weakness. It certain isnt problem free niether is piston. If I were to buy over I would have done a BCM or DD and KAC (have) for DI, a SCAR or PWS MK114 for piston. Had an ACR loved the simple design and function of it but it was heavy and unbalanced. It breaks downs well, has very few parts and requires little to no tools! To charge the rifle your cheek never needs to leave the stock which mean your eyes dont have to leave the target. Ergos were the best of any rifle...I hated the weight and balance so much I had to get rid of it. If Scrubmaster/Rem lighten her up I am on board!!! Flame away, my opinion and you cant take that away from me...handle and shoot them all, I have shot most, RRA, Colt, ACR, KAC, SCAR, Ruger, etc just my opinion I only have extensive on a few but I know what I like and why I like it. Just my two cents...I will get off my soapbox now. HAHA...more Jimmy Beam please..cya
Jesus H Christ, some folks need to read more and post less instead of spouting off gun rag drivel. There is more bullshit in this thread than I have read on here in a loooong time...
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-29-11, 07:53
At this point, the OP has resolved his question to his satisfaction, so this whole thread has degraded into uselessness. Which is is like the batsignal for me to put in my 2 cents:jester:
1. It seems obvious to me that a good old 6920 is a great low/no risk choice for a personal rifle. You put your Aimpoint M4 on it (or T1) and pick up a light (X300 for me, since I can put it on my pistols). For the reasons stated above, the DI guns are the best choice for regular folks. Most of us do not run our guns full-auto suppressed.
2. That being said, I do happen to have an M16A1 lower so when I bought an upper for it I bought a 10.5 inch HK 416 upper. My reasoning was that it seemed to be adopted by the most "dialed-in" of users. It draws tons of hate on the internet, which is obviously filled with BS anyway, but it seems to be in the hands of DELTA, SEALs, etc. Obviously, when it came out that the 416 was used in the take-down of UBL, the crapstorm started again. I know it causes a lot of butt-hurt, but is really hard to ignore the fact the best of the best think it is a good idea. It seems to me if you have the $ to buy a NFA lower and a suppressor you ought to just get a 416 upper.
Suwannee Tim
05-29-11, 08:03
I bought a piston LMT because I wanted a piston gun. I have not yet begun to regret it. In fact, I plan to buy a spare, an identical gun, identical right down to the piston. If you want a piston, get a piston. As far as LMT versus LWRC, my LMT jammed recently. Evidently a fragment of metal was in the chamber as the cartridge was fed and I had a live jammed cartridge in an out of battery rifle. Normally options are to "mortar" the rifle (which I hate to even watch) or put a rod down the bore, beat the cartridge out and hope it doesn't ignite. With the LMT there is a third option, take out the barrel clamping screws and snatch the barrel out. This was a two minute solution to a vexing problem and the POI didn't change. Point is, I love, love, LOVE the LMT method of barrel attachment. This would hold true for a gas gun LMT as well. Same method of barrel attachment.
DI? GP?
There are pros and cons with each. Less money, less weight, slightly less complexity and less of an issue when parts are required may be enough reason to stay conventional.
The engineer in me whispers "Piston" but it has one engineering concern: bolt carrier tilt. How big of a concern? I dunno. Other issues: cost, weight, parts availability.
Of the two options the OP mentioned, I like the specs of LWRCI barrels: CHF and Meloniting. I like the monolithic rail of LMT and the "quick change" barrels are neat but to me not a necessity. Fit and finish on both appear to be topnotch. The LMT appears to be less expensive - at least from what I've seen and I've not read much, if any at all, negatives about LMT Gas Piston rifles after a batch or three that had issues cycling when they first appeared on the market.
If you decide to go DI there are a few I'D look at closely: BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske, Colt in any order YOU choose.
Magic_Salad0892
05-30-11, 00:26
Very good defense of your viewpoint. That’s refreshing. The “Filthy 14” article was very good, and I’m probably belaboring the point a bit too much, but, I was referring to DI guns used almost as a Squad Automatic, not in their real intended role of “assault rifle”.
If you're taking the gun out of it's intended role, witch it was designed around, then you're arguing out of context. There is no way I would argue that an AK is a better marksman rifle than an SVD. Even though the AK is (potentially) more reliable, and easier to work with.
I like heavy barrels, because I do like to run my guns (just one or two of them) very hard, for extended periods, almost, but not quite, like a SAW. So I love pistons, quick change barrels, and a heavier barrel.
If you're not mag dumping shit on full auto then I can't see what a piston would be doing better. I have shot two thousand rounds through a AR before with a leightweight barrel profile, suppressed, in one day. That is probably the most I have ever shot out of it in the shortest period of time. And without lubricating it. If properly setup, then it will work. The gun suffered no degradation of accuracy that I could measure. If there was any at all. I also can't think of a good application for quick change barrels outside of a SAW, or a damaged barrel. Nonetheless I think the 10.5'' DI MWS is one of the best weapons LMT has ever developed.
The story of Special Operations Command came from an article in one of the big gun mags, in an article about the LMT piston guns, although it may be untrue. It did say that the point of aim on some of the SOC carbines was off after using the guns hard and long, and that they examined the guns and found barrel thread distortion was to blame.
You read it in a gun magazine. It is suspect at absolute best. Unless Rob wrote it. Or Mike Pannone, or something.
I know for darn sure that DI guns heat the chambers, BCGs, and barrel thread areas A LOT more than piston guns, so I believe it, but, it could be just a story.
Piston gun's chambers do not get that much hotter than a DI gun's chamber area, and I can prove it. 87GN can as well. I've argued against him, and lost. There is a thread I can lead you to where 87GN measured the chamber temperature, and gas block temperature of a GP gun v. a DI gun. I'll post the thread later.
Thanks
Replies in red.
soapboxpreacherman
05-31-11, 22:02
Thx Iraqgunz for checking my grammar, I still stand by what I said but dont take me out of context either. I would not take a RRA over a colt. I more then clearly stated that during a side by side test the RRA shot more accurately then the colt. As for the HK416 it is heavy and unbalanced, this I dont like. But if I were to be separated from my unit were it meant my survival traveling thru mud, water, I had nothing else then ammo...no oil. I would carry an HK416 anyday over an M4. It will withstand the elements and require less maintenance. You didnt watch the video yet you should. A rifle designed for warfare needs to function without much maintenance and limited cleaning/oil, hence the AKs success. If a part breaks in battle it doesnt matter if you can get one later...what matters is now. No one with a functioning rifle is going to give you parts from theirs!! I hate the parts arguement for in the field of battle a rifle needs to never break. But they do and they have. Water in a gas tube, dust in a BCG, broken springs, extractors, etc. Thats not to say The HK or scar haven't had their teething issues as well but issues that have not caused the life of as many soldiers as the M16 has.
Taping the muzzle...dont even get me started. This does not happen in the field.
As for Vietnam, it happened whether you blame it on ammo, the "original design" which had no forward assist on the "Mattel gun" or not it happened during use of that rifle...period! No chrome lined anything...Magazines issues...the list goes on but many issues on that list still happen today. My point is it was released without being field tested! They didnt issues the much dependant cleaning kit. But more so when the rifle jammed (not always) it has to be cracked open. Same can be said with the ammo but it doesnt bring those men back who died as a result of that combination but they were issued them and were found next to them in a state of in-operation! There were 2 years of this before they improved on the M16. How do I know this from my father-in-law. He described this in detail and knew of it also considering he wasnt issued a cleaning kit till later. But its not just him saying this:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,843858,00.htm
I made it clear that we have had 40 years to know pretty much exactly what will cause an M16/M4 to fail. It has had numerous revisions. We know what parts will fail and when, how to maintain it...etc. What elements it can fight successfully in and what it cant. We do not clearly know this about the current crop of piston rifle out there. Some have fended better then other but none have caused as many causalities do to failure in the line of fire then the M16. Argue all you want...that is a fact but then again it is based on 40+ years of service. Yes it is an excellent weapon but there is are a substantial number of other options for 5.56. The SCAR and the MK416 are being used and are being used in far more critical battle scenarios/operations then the M4...fact! An M4 did not take the life of Osama.
http://www.usnews.com/news/washington-whispers/articles/2011/05/11/the-gun-that-killed-osama-bin-laden-revealed
Yes the scar and the 416 had there growing pains I find it funny the first two years of service where the worst of the M16...hmmmm. But now you have to wonder Why are a number of our critical missions being done with other platforms if the M4 is so perfect?? Is the M4 battle tested yes, has it been around for a long time yes, is it successful yes. Let me put it like this, Brett Favre is one of the best QBs to ever play the game has set many records including most consecutive games but he also holds the highest interception numbers of any QB past or present in the NFL. My point is the M16/M4 is far from perfect, there is no perfect solution however there are better solutions based on the situation and condition of battle then others.
Sorry you disagree with much of what I said but much if not all are facts (Sorry truth for brett favre too...he better not text me either)...like it or not. Most of all just having fun here so take no offense. I dont believe that is why we are here.
Magic_Salad0892
05-31-11, 22:15
Soap:
The M4 if built properly will serve in just as bad conditions, as a 416. Most here would agree. Especially those who've used them in bad conditions.
Second: It does not matter if a gun was used to kill OBL. Plenty of LEOs have been killed with Hi-Point pistols in CA, but they're still a piece of shit.
You also cannot really argue the teething problems of the M16 because that was 40 YEARS AGO. The system has been ironed out by now. The 416 hasn't even been in service for 10 years. If you were arguing for the SCAR, then your argument might have merit. In fact, from what I hear out there the 416 is still having problems, do I hear ''cracked receivers?''
I'd like to ask something, how long do you think it takes for an M4 to choke up due to lack of maintenance? My guess is that you'll be out of ammunition before it chokes, and the M4 has less parts to break. I used to be a piston pusher, but I realized soon on this site, that pretty much every argument for piston ARs falls apart when you start applying logic.
Maintenance isn't really a problem with M4 type rifles.
soapbox,
To be perfectly blunt. You simply have no idea what you are talking about and you are making decisions or forming opinions based off of shit that you are reading.
I hope that it doesn't hurt your feelings, but that's my take on it.
Let me clarify something- I never said that taping a muzzle in the field happens. I said that personnel do have access to and do use muzzle protectors. I have seen it in Iraq, Bahrain, Kuwait and Afghanistan. My guess is that Larry taped it, in lieu of having a muzzle cap.
Also, I do not give a rats ass if RRA is more accurate. People are obsessed with accuracy to the the point that it is silly. Also, there is no such thing as a "Mattel gun". That is nothing more than internet fantasy from those who don't have a clue.
As to the silly SCAR and 416 analogy. The sample size is still small, and they still do not have a proven track record like the M16 FOW that have been in service with several countries for the last 40+ years.
I have a lmt piston and I love the thing. Didn't buy it because I preferred one over the other but just because I wanted one. Works great and never had a problem. Was a little on the pricey side but hey, had a couple bucks laying around so I bought it. No regrets. It cracked me up when I read the guy bought 15 of them. That's like 30k!! I could understand two (because I have 2), but 15?? Come on, no wonder everyone dislikes this guy on this thread. Anyway, go with an aimpoint. Regardless of which one you choose there all good.
soapboxpreacherman
06-01-11, 00:18
The fact that Osama was killed by an 416 compared to a M4 should make you wonder why...hmmm...why did the seal team chose a 416 over a m4...the article stated reliability....
You asked how long will an m4 go before it chokes...hmmm. How hot is, it, is there dust in the air, is there a sandstorm, what is the humidity? How much oil is on the BCG? But there are many M4 but there is only one SCAR one HK416...lets move on. The is the Colt the USG issues...then there are countless M4 that all the security contractors use. BCM has one filthy 14 article out there...great! I love the BCM stuff but it is not an end all be all because of one magazine article. I love all the test colt does on barrel material...just like BCM. But the barrel typically isnt what fails on a M4!
The race to replace the M4 has been years coming but do to military politics and a lot of lobbying the m4 by colt is still the one. You might want to dig into who is lining the pockets of those making decisions on behalf of the weapons our men and women carry...it honestly shouldnt surprise you. I can point out a thousand reason why the m4 still has issues and still isnt suitable for all combat situations without relying on additional oil and cleaning. This is one of the exact reason why spec ops, seal teams and so on do not use the m4 for the majority of there critical missions. It is not suitable from a sub deployment, air dropped for a helicopter in the sea, etc!!!! They dont carry cleaning kits, oil and so on. Infantry does. There is also cost issues and logistics...and of course the wonderful parts argument. We can go round and round you two guys can call me what you want and claim I read this here and there but the fact that you two still cant embrace the fact that it is not being used as a mission critical weapon amaze me...it is a infantry weapon because it has reliability issues...period. Sure there are exceptions to this...the filthy 40 article...great! Know lets see if you were on the front line if you would trust your rifle to the same if your life depended on it...you wouldnt! You two are sipping the M4 kool-aid hard! I am not saying it is the most horrible rifle out far from it...I am saying there are better options in certain situations but both of you cant seem to hear this! Why wouldnt you want the very best for our guys? But lets continue, I am also saying it is a rifle that still has far more limitation then many of the next gen platform. For example if you were to give a soldier two rifles lets say an ACR or a M4...that soldier never shot either what do you think he/she would pick???? I know your kool-aid induced answer.."M4 all day" keep dreaming. This isnt just my opinion. Ergonomic, piston, simplicity, maintenance, etc. That is why such program like SCAR were developed. Not to look for a rifle but to find something to replace the M4 because of its faults. But enough of the insults from you two. I have had it. You are unwilling to believe that there are other options that are far more suitable for battle then the might M4!! You take your into battle and I will stick with my HK416...and I am yet to see a crack! If I had to choose between the M4 and the 416 and my life depended on it...416...or even a SCAR! Go head flame away...I can take it from you two all day...your post counts only shows me you are on here more then a battlefield, enough said.
Wow, thank you for enlightning me. And FYI. I have spent almost 5 years since 2004 in Iraq, Afghanistan and the surrounding AO and I just returned from a short 30 days doing some maritime security/ anti-piracy stuff in Africa and will be heading out again shortly.
So the next time you decide to run your f*cking gums make sure that you know what you are talking about before you play sniper.
I also don't give a flying **** if Osama was killed by a Ruger 10/22. So maybe they are in use by Navy SEALs and CAG. But, there are still plenty of other units MARSOC, SF, PJ's, etc... using the M4.
The fact that Osama was killed by an 416 compared to a M4 should make you wonder why...hmmm...why did the seal team choice a 416 to a m4...the article stated reliability.
You asked how long will an m4 go before it chokes...hmmm. Well there is only one SCAR on HK416 but many M4...lets move on. BCM has one filthy 14 article out there...great! I love the BCM stuff but it is not an end all be all because of one magazine article.
The race to replace the M4 has been years coming but do to military politics and a lot of lobbying the m4 by colt is still the one. I can point out a thousand reason why the m4 still has issues and still isnt suitable for all combat situations without relying on additional oil and cleaning. This is one of the exact reason why spec ops, seal teams and so on do not use the m4 for the majority of there missions. It is not suitable from a sub deployment, air dropped for a helicopter in the sea, etc!!!! They dont carry cleaning kits, oil and so on. Infantry does. We can go round and round you to guys can call me what you want and claim I read this here and there but the fact that you two still cant embrass is the fact that it is not being used as a mission critical weapon...it is a infantry weapon because it has reliability issues...period. Sure there are exceptions to this...the filthy 40 article...great! Know lets see if you were on the front line if you would trust your rifle to the same if your life depended on it...you wouldnt! You two are sipping the M4 kool-aid hard! I am not saying it is the most horrible rifle out...I am saying there are better options in certain situations but both of you cant seem to hear this! I am also saying it is a rifle that still has far more limitation then many of the next gen platform. For example if you were to give a soldier two rifles an ACR or a M4...that soldier never shot either what do you think he/she would pick???? I know your kool-aid induced answer.."M4 all day" keep dreaming. This isnt just my opinion. That is why such program like SCAR were developed. But enough of the insults from you two. I have had it. You are unwilling to believe that there are other options that are far more suitable for battle then the might M4!! You take your into battle and I will stick with my HK416...an I am yet to see a crack! If I had to choose between the M4 and the 416 and my life depended on it...416...or even a SCAR! Go head flame away...I can take it from you two all day...your post counts only shows me you are on here more then a battlefield, enough said.
soapboxpreacherman
06-01-11, 00:37
"People are obsessed with accuracy to the the point that it is silly"
Yes we are...why because a misplaced 5.56 will not kill someone. A misplaced 7.62x39 might not kill some one but it takes off a arm if hit in the shoulder...a 5.56 doesnt...that might be why accuracy has something to do with it. Might be why 6.5 and 6.8 are being considered. Bigger...fits in the same size magwell, but more kinetic energy! Accuracy is the difference between one shot and two..."yes sgt!" I am DONE!
Have you ever seen an AK gunshot up close? I have and it didn't blow anyones arm off or their leg. I'll even email you a picture of it if you don't believe me. As far as I am concerned you need to stay in your lane. Good bye. You will be sorely missed.
"People are obsessed with accuracy to the the point that it is silly"
Yes we are...why because a misplaced 5.56 will not kill someone. A misplaced 7.62x39 might not kill some one but it takes off a arm if hit in the shoulder...a 5.56 doesnt...that might be why accuracy has something to do with it. Might be why 6.5 and 6.8 are being considered. Bigger...fits in the same size magwell, but more kinetic energy! Accuracy is the difference between one shot and two..."yes sgt!" I am DONE!
parishioner
06-01-11, 00:39
I am DONE!
Praise jesus.
The fact that Osama was killed by an 416 compared to a M4 should make you wonder why...hmmm...why did the seal team chose a 416 over a m4...the article stated reliability....
You asked how long will an m4 go before it chokes...hmmm. How hot is, it, is there dust in the air, is there a sandstorm, what is the humidity? How much oil is on the BCG? But there are many M4 but there is only one SCAR one HK416...lets move on. The is the Colt the USG issues...then there are countless M4 that all the security contractors use. BCM has one filthy 14 article out there...great! I love the BCM stuff but it is not an end all be all because of one magazine article. I love all the test colt does on barrel material...just like BCM. But the barrel typically isnt what fails on a M4!
The race to replace the M4 has been years coming but do to military politics and a lot of lobbying the m4 by colt is still the one. You might want to dig into who is lining the pockets of those making decisions on behalf of the weapons our men and women carry...it honestly shouldnt surprise you. I can point out a thousand reason why the m4 still has issues and still isnt suitable for all combat situations without relying on additional oil and cleaning. This is one of the exact reason why spec ops, seal teams and so on do not use the m4 for the majority of there critical missions. It is not suitable from a sub deployment, air dropped for a helicopter in the sea, etc!!!! They dont carry cleaning kits, oil and so on. Infantry does. There is also cost issues and logistics...and of course the wonderful parts argument. We can go round and round you two guys can call me what you want and claim I read this here and there but the fact that you two still cant embrace the fact that it is not being used as a mission critical weapon amaze me...it is a infantry weapon because it has reliability issues...period. Sure there are exceptions to this...the filthy 40 article...great! Know lets see if you were on the front line if you would trust your rifle to the same if your life depended on it...you wouldnt! You two are sipping the M4 kool-aid hard! I am not saying it is the most horrible rifle out far from it...I am saying there are better options in certain situations but both of you cant seem to hear this! Why wouldnt you want the very best for our guys? But lets continue, I am also saying it is a rifle that still has far more limitation then many of the next gen platform. For example if you were to give a soldier two rifles lets say an ACR or a M4...that soldier never shot either what do you think he/she would pick???? I know your kool-aid induced answer.."M4 all day" keep dreaming. This isnt just my opinion. Ergonomic, piston, simplicity, maintenance, etc. That is why such program like SCAR were developed. Not to look for a rifle but to find something to replace the M4 because of its faults. But enough of the insults from you two. I have had it. You are unwilling to believe that there are other options that are far more suitable for battle then the might M4!! You take your into battle and I will stick with my HK416...and I am yet to see a crack! If I had to choose between the M4 and the 416 and my life depended on it...416...or even a SCAR! Go head flame away...I can take it from you two all day...your post counts only shows me you are on here more then a battlefield, enough said.
Interesting. Ok, I'll say that I don't sit on either side of the fence. A quality piston AR like the HK 416 or the LMT is fine to me as are good DI rifles like BCM and Noveske. .
No offense intended, but what is your experience level and what are your credentials? The only reason I ask is because you seem to be calling other people's creds out. If so, it's only fair to ask what yours are. I know IG questioned your credentials in an earlier post and you never did respond to that. Now you're calling his out and I know his and he can tell you what they are, but now I'm curious as to what yours are. I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just curious because you seem to be very adamant about this subject.
SWATcop556
06-01-11, 01:44
Anytime someone starts saying "my bigger round is better because if I hit your left pinky toe it will still blow your ****ing leg off" I take that as a clue and ignore everything else they say. It's the same bullshit argument made by those that say "men carry .45's"
Soapboxpreacherman consider yourself warned in regards to taking cheap shots to an IP/Mod and how much time they've spent on the battlefield.
The next warning is a vacation. Knock your shit off.
ffhounddog
06-01-11, 05:21
I have seen an ak gunshot up close what do I win?
I still like my lwrci m6 and have not had any issues. With it. Been overseas with an m4 no issues with it.
Have shot other pistons, scars, sigs, lmt, and they felt fine with the fam fire.
Now if I was going to be in crap without support my bcm middy would go.
Ffh
Sttrongbow
06-01-11, 06:41
Wow... lots of emotion here.
I'll say this. I own DI ARs (Colt and BCM), an LWRC piston AR (10.5") and 2 SCARs (one 10.5", one 16.25"). Of the three weapon types, the SCARs are my favortites, but ALL of them have been totally reliable. So far, the only one run in "tough" conditions (muddy, harsh firing schedule), was the Colt LE6921. It ran flawlessly wih some Slip 2000 squirted in every day. I'd feel totally confident using any of them when relaibility counted.
I bought the piston AR, becuase I wanted less gas in my face and a little less fouling in the receiver when shooting supressed.
Failure2Stop
06-01-11, 06:42
Original topic covered and answered.
Stupidity approaching critical mass.
I'm shutting this one down as there is nothing more to be gleaned other than half-baked DI vs Piston rhetoric and personal poutiness.
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