View Full Version : m4c's opinion on SIG 556 classic
dmancornell
02-23-11, 21:32
I did a search on this forum and found threads justifiably praising the SIG 550, but not much on the SIG 556 classic. Now that the price is around $900 I'm giving it some thought.
Basically I have a bunch of DI guns and would like to play around with a piston gun.
Anyone here have feedback on the classic? Not interested in the regular SIG556 due to ugly furniture.
Several opinions of the 556 line are offered in these topics:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=71956
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65223
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=73531
lloydkristmas
02-24-11, 00:07
If you evaluate it with the original SIG 550 as a standard, it simply doesnt live up.
Its not a BAD rifle, its just not at all what it could have been.
The way I see it, its sort of a compromise between an AK and an AR. You're losing a little accuracy, and gaining a little reliability. The cost, however, plants it firmly in between the two, so you'd be better off deciding which qualities you valued more, and simply buying the AK or the AR, whichever suits you more.
dmancornell
02-24-11, 01:10
Several opinions of the 556 line are offered in these topics:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=71956
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65223
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=73531
I read those threads, and while I understand that the 556 doesn't live up to the 550, is it a total junker like some say? Or is it a decent enough rifle for $900? Yes it has cheap handguards, the folder is wobbly, but if the action is solid and reliable and it groups decently, for $900 I'll give it a shot.
I read those threads, and while I understand that the 556 doesn't live up to the 550, is it a total junker like some say? Or is it a decent enough rifle for $900? Yes it has cheap handguards, the folder is wobbly, but if the action is solid and reliable and it groups decently, for $900 I'll give it a shot.
It is about what you would expect from a $900 AR made by the likes of DPMS or BM. While it may be fine for range use and home defense, it is not a service grade weapon that should be taken into harm's way. Most people on this forum do not have much use for such weapons, so most posts will express varying degrees of scorn for the 556 line. The standard and special edition SWAT line may be slight improvement in workmanship, but not worth the cost or excessive front end weight.
variablebinary
02-24-11, 05:04
Don't bother. It's like a century arms or DPMS version of 55x
You're losing a little accuracy, and gaining a little reliability.
What the ****?
chapperjoe
02-24-11, 08:28
I'm posting my first opinion I've ever posted on M4c (slippery slope so I try not to), but I think only folks who've actually owned one should comment on them.
I heard tons of flack on sig's from alot of guys who never even pawed one.
lloydkristmas
02-24-11, 09:11
What the ****?
What I meant was, if you compare it to a 'hobby grade' AR15 such as Bushmaster or DPMS, its a little less accurate, but a little more reliable, especially with cheaper ammo.
Its basically an expensive compromise between an AK and an AR, and the user would be better off just buying an AK or an AR, depending on their needs.
crusader377
02-24-11, 09:54
$900 will get you far more than a hobby grade AR if you spend a few minutes to look online.
This is what you can get for $900
Daniel Defense XV
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=217669584
or you can build a BCM for around the $900 to $950 range
both of these rifles are far more than a hobby grade rifle and IMO are a better choice than a Sig 556.
I'm posting my first opinion I've ever posted on M4c (slippery slope so I try not to), but I think only folks who've actually owned one should comment on them.
I heard tons of flack on sig's from alot of guys who never even pawed one.
The only people that are qualified to comment on this matter are people that own both a SIG550 series gun and a SIG556.
If someone doesn't own a SIG550, then they are not qualified to comment about how there SIG556 is "just as good as" or a "military grade weapon" like the SIG550.
So, if you want to claim your SIG556 is the same as a SIG550 and you don't own a SIG550, your post is irrelevant.
BullittBoy
02-24-11, 10:45
Well I can comment as I owned a real pre-ban 550 and I owned a "Classic" early model 556 I paid about $1,250 for.
The 556 is like walking into a Porshe dealership and buying a Boxster for $40K when they make a 911 all wheel drive turbo for $120K and saying "Well its got a Porshe badge on it" so it must be "close" in looks and performance. ;)
The 556 I had personally had the fishgill front stock that was heavy and cheezy looking-I replaced it with a real Swiss one and it rattled around inside the retainer-they couldn't even get the retainer right.
Then the rear "Tapco" wobbly M4 stock was awful, I didn't get around to replacing it because it was a commercial tube and all my stocks are mil-spec.
The rear sights were the "popsickle" style that were absolutely awful to adjust. The upper to lower fit was terrible, I could see a good 1-2mm of daylight between them, the trigger was mushy.
The upper rail was out of spec-I tried Leupold, ARMS, and LaRue mounts and all were either loose or not as tight as I would have liked comparible to my Colt M4.
Then the worst part was it shot 2.5-3MOA with a 4x scope and any ammo I tried-55 all the way up to 77 grain.
It was reliable-I will give it that.
Then the front "balance" issue-even with the handguard replaced was awful. I could not stand it and sold it in the Obama "frenzy" for $1,650. Have not missed it at all.
You would be MUCH better off with an Arsenal AK47 or 74 for $799 in my opinion if you want a "piston" design.
Since the OP only asked about the SIG556 & not a 556 vs. 550, I don’t see why only owners of both weapons can comment.
I own a SIG556. So, I am halfway qualified to answer. It is not as ergonomic as the AR’s, but it is better than an AK. It is a little nose heavy and overall heavier than a similar AR. In over 2000 rds (range use only), it has gone bang every time I pulled the trigger & it handles great. Accuracy is about the same as a Colt LE6920.
If you look through the past history of the SIG556’s, you will see various quality control issues that should have never happened. I don’t know the state of current SIG rifles.
I would much rather have a Colt, BCM or DD AR over it, but it has not been a bad rifle. If someone handed one to me & said charge that hill, I would probably tear-up, but not because of the rifle but because I may get the elbows on my multicam TAD hoodie dirty.
If someone handed one to me & said charge that hill, I would probably tear-up, but not because of the rifle but because I may get the elbows on my multicam TAD hoodie dirty.
:D Awesome.
No Bananas
02-24-11, 12:11
If you evaluate it with the original SIG 550 as a standard, it simply doesnt live up.
Its not a BAD rifle, its just not at all what it could have been.
The way I see it, its sort of a compromise between an AK and an AR. You're losing a little accuracy, and gaining a little reliability. The cost, however, plants it firmly in between the two, so you'd be better off deciding which qualities you valued more, and simply buying the AK or the AR, whichever suits you more.
I have a Sig 556 Classic and the above post is the bottom line. In my experience, it is not as accurate as my ARs but I do feel that it would be more reliable. Sig's QC has, undeniably, had issues in recent years. Do I want to get rid of the one I've got. No. But if I had to go to my safe right now and had to pick a rifle that would go, the Sig 556 would be it. Would I buy another? No.
I read those threads, and while I understand that the 556 doesn't live up to the 550, is it a total junker like some say? Or is it a decent enough rifle for $900? Yes it has cheap handguards, the folder is wobbly, but if the action is solid and reliable and it groups decently, for $900 I'll give it a shot.
On it's own merits, without comparing it to a 550, AR or any other rifle.
It is a reasonably accurate, reasonably reliable 5.56 carbine. It is certainly not something I'd call "hard use" and I would not recommend one for "all the marbles" duty such as defensive LE or military applications. And that is where most of the criticism comes from, because it should have been capable of fulfilling those roles.
I have a few "unproven" firearms in my collection simply because they were interesting enough to buy (the XCR and MSAR come to mind). And if I didn't have real Swiss SIGs, I probably would have kept my WCA SG 551 even though it was basically still a 556 with correct lower.
As a recreational firearm you will probably not have any issues at all with it. So it is up to you if that makes it worth the purchase. Sounds like you have plenty of other suitable firearms to hold the fort if needed.
The biggest turn off I've heard from people about the 556 is the crappy furniture. I purchased a 556 patrol rifle and I have to agree. The base of the rifle is sound. The upper and lower fit together tightly, the trigger and action function well ( as a matter of fact they're a good shooting rifle), I have never had a FTF, FTE, or any feeding problems with every type of ammo I have fed through it.
If you spend the extra the 300-400 dollars and upgrade it with SAN furniture you would have a great rifle. I think at the current price point it's worth the look.
R
dmancornell
02-24-11, 13:57
Thanks for the feedback. I was looking for dealbreakers like broken actions or off center rails. If the fundamentals are sound I'll probably pick one up as a range rifle. I can always fall back on the Noveske or the HK91.
Thanks for the feedback. I was looking for dealbreakers like broken actions or off center rails. If the fundamentals are sound I'll probably pick one up as a range rifle. I can always fall back on the Noveske or the HK91.
Off center/out of spec rails has been an issue with these.
dmancornell
02-24-11, 15:42
Off center/out of spec rails has been an issue with these.
From what I gather it's the forearms rails that are off center, and the receiver rail is out of spec. Former is a non-issue since I will not get a quad rail forearm, but the latter would be a dealbreaker. I'll have to do more research and see if the receiver rail is an ongoing issue.
The Sig 556 rifles that i purchased are the last of the Sig's i will buy unless a used W German 220 comes my way. Mine work great for my purposes but i am not using them in a life or death situation. They require too much aftermarket items to make the suitable for me.
I'm telling you right now, the sig556R in 7.62 soviet is sure looking attractive.
I've always wanted a 7.62x39mm with an easy to use ambi selector switch and this is it.
lloydkristmas
02-24-11, 17:59
I'm telling you right now, the sig556R in 7.62 soviet is sure looking attractive.
I've always wanted a 7.62x39mm with an easy to use ambi selector switch and this is it.
IF the x39 556R is reliable, then I can see a couple advantages it might have over a standard AK. Longer sight radius and better selector switch being the biggest ones. If the rail was in spec and solid, I'd dare say it would be a decent AK alternative.
Thats IF its reliable, and well made, however. At the rate Sig is going, thats a lot to ask for.
The only people that are qualified to comment on this matter are people that own both a SIG550 series gun and a SIG556.
If someone doesn't own a SIG550, then they are not qualified to comment about how there SIG556 is "just as good as" or a "military grade weapon" like the SIG550.
So, if you want to claim your SIG556 is the same as a SIG550 and you don't own a SIG550, your post is irrelevant.
No Scotty. Owning both does not make one more qualified than someone who just has a 556. Stop with the BS, posthaste. It's tiring.
I did a search on this forum and found threads justifiably praising the SIG 550, but not much on the SIG 556 classic. Now that the price is around $900 I'm giving it some thought.
Basically I have a bunch of DI guns and would like to play around with a piston gun.
Anyone here have feedback on the classic? Not interested in the regular SIG556 due to ugly furniture.
For honest, non-biased, NO BS reports on the 556 or 556R, report to sigarms556.com website.
Intellectually honest information is awaiting you there.
No Scotty. Owning both does not make one more qualified than someone who just has a 556. Stop with the BS, posthaste. It's tiring.
He is correct in the context he stipulated, IF comparing it to a military grade SIG.
If comparing it to other military grade weapons, you would need to own one of those as well.
But you can own just a 556 and comment on the performance of that particular rifle alone.
He is correct in the context he stipulated, IF comparing it to a military grade SIG.
I think people are just sick of Scottryans arrogant attitude. He seems to want to talk with authority regarding weapons, TTPs and the "real world", but fails to list what makes him the expert when called on it. It gets old.
Here's a couple of threads that he avoids the questions after pissing people off....
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=864498#post864498
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=876723#post876723
I think people are just sick of Scottryans arrogant attitude.
No what they are tired of is this same SIG556 subject coming up every week and we have to rehash the same shit over and over again.
Is there really a need to turn a discussion here personal?
No what they are tired of is this same SIG556 subject coming up every week and we have to rehash the same shit over and over again.
Scott, why do you think people get pissed at your replies all of the time? We all have given attitude in posts, and I am as guilty as anyone in that regard, but your posts always have an arrogant tone to them.
As I have asked before... what qualifies you to talk down to people? I know that you're a collector, and can tell someone when a Colt rifle was made by the serial number, but what really qualifies you to be an "expert" on these weapons? I've seen you post about certain weapons and the "real world" but you fail to explain what your real world experience is with them. I'm just curious so that I can weigh your opinions against others.
speaking of SIG......
What type of rifle parts do they sell to the public?
I think people are just sick of Scottryans arrogant attitude. He seems to want to talk with authority regarding weapons, TTPs and the "real world", but fails to list what makes him the expert when called on it. It gets old.
Here's a couple of threads that he avoids the questions after pissing people off....
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=864498#post864498
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=876723#post876723
Gotcha, I'm just trying to keep it specific and make sure we are all understanding what is being said. I think a lot of the "hissies" come from people reading something and thinking something else was said. It's actually kind of easy to do if you aren't careful.
Like I said. I have owned the pistol version and currently own the patrol carbine. I sold the pistol because I didn't like the lower reciever( the older AR type lower). If SIG produces a pistol version that will allow a Swiss side folder to be attached (once it's been approved as an SBR), then I will probably buy another pistol as well. They're a lot fun to shoot and with the extra money you can make a "stock/ off the shelf" rifle a nice weapon that allows the use of AR mags.
I agree that the best place to get your question answered would be the SIG forum.
For a matter of full disclosure I currently own a SIG P228, P226, SP2022, and P220R......what can I say I really like SIG pistols. So there you have it.
I had a SIG 556 SWAT Pistol and a 556 Classic. Bought them new off of Gunbroker shortly after the election. The Pistol: front sight had alot of play did not fit tight in the base, reciever rail was way out of spec, whatever I mounted on it would loosen up after a couple of shots, lots of play between upper and lower reciever, SIG/Chicom aimpoint knockoff that came with it gave out after several mags. Classic: fit and finish was much better than the Pistol, nice snug fit between upper and lower, internals it looked like someone had taken a Dremel to the hammer looked like it was ground down uneven not machined, reciever rail was out of spec also but not as bad as the Pistol it took a mag or two for things to loosen up. Ran several hundred rounds through each them and they ran fine, accuracy was ok but not great. There have been alot of people that have had accuracy and or function problems with them though. The quality on is sort of Bushmaster or maybe even worse with cheap Chicom furniture, sights, subassemblies, etc.. I owned several German made SIG pistols back in the 90's and they were great guns, I was very disappointed with these U.S. SIG rifles. I sold and traded them off for a SCAR 16 and havent looked back. CDNN has a special on new Colt 6520's for $900 that would be a much better value for your money.
They aren't a replacement for a good M4 or AK made from a military grade assembly line. They're heavy, and while most of them seem to work good, you can never be quite sure which corners were cut in manufacturing them that are going to come back and bite you in the rear end at a later date.
Having had experience with both the 551/552 & owning a 556 I can give you my opinion.
-The 556 is a commercial copy of a military weapon that is altered to take AR mags and is not built to the level of a 551/2/3, while it uses a similar system. A few of us really wanted a 551/2 and got fishgills early on which was a real dissapointment.
-The 556 was built to a price point, not to a TDP "standard". At 800-900 it is arguably a decent value, at $1200-2k it was a epic rip off.
-During the election and after they were shoving them out the door as fast as they could to keep up with orders and combined with the lesser degree of QC instituted at SIG some real dogs got out the door. I had been told the warranty service costs of fixing them got their attention but with the outsourcing of parts and different vendors who knows.
-The furniture is now better executed. But if you have held a 551 comparatively it still kinda feels like playskool stuff. However you can now purchase real SAN furniture, sights, & parts (remember 922r) here in the US to upgrade it if you wish. You can order the real adjustable swiss stock from the Gun Factory or the bantam from Colorado gun sales. You can even purchase a swiss lower that will only take swiss mags, if you want to hang with 50 dollar mags. And skip their rails, there are better after market rail products.
I took off the Sig Sauer red dot and put it in a box with a note that said "Are you kidding me??" and mailed it to Exeter attention Ron Cohen. It was a exercise in futility but it was a well spent $10 and my soul felt better.
-Mine has been dependable to the the 6k round mark. It is a good gun that I do enjoy, although my oldest son calls me Sonny Crocket when I pull it, now that he has seen Miami Vice. Would I deploy overseas with it, no, but at this point mine my particular gun has proven itself to me and if I had to reach for it in a SHTF moment I would. I like have different types of guns in my collection not all of which are suitable for a military or LE applications other folks do not so it just depends on your taste.
-My recommendation if you decide you want one is to find one in stock and give it a good visual inspection looking for loose furniture, canted rails, or machining errors in the action. If you want something you want to "Swissify" as I did it is a good jumping off point for a project. Just be sure to run a thousand rounds thru it first, as you would any new gun, before changing too much in case you do need a warranty repair.
Having had experience with both the 551/552 & owning a 556 I can give you my opinion.
-The 556 is a commercial copy of a military weapon that is altered to take AR mags and is not built to the level of a 551/2/3, while it uses a similar system. A few of us really wanted a 551/2 and got fishgills early on which was a real dissapointment.
-The 556 was built to a price point, not to a TDP "standard". At 800-900 it is arguably a decent value, at $1200-2k it was a epic rip off.
-During the election and after they were shoving them out the door as fast as they could to keep up with orders and combined with the lesser degree of QC instituted at SIG some real dogs got out the door. I had been told the warranty service costs of fixing them got their attention but with the outsourcing of parts and different vendors who knows.
-The furniture is now better executed. But if you have held a 551 comparatively it still kinda feels like playskool stuff. However you can now purchase real SAN furniture, sights, & parts (remember 922r) here in the US to upgrade it if you wish. You can order the real adjustable swiss stock from the Gun Factory or the bantam from Colorado gun sales. You can even purchase a swiss lower that will only take swiss mags, if you want to hang with 50 dollar mags. And skip their rails, there are better after market rail products.
I took off the Sig Sauer red dot and put it in a box with a note that said "Are you kidding me??" and mailed it to Exeter attention Ron Cohen. It was a exercise in futility but it was a well spent $10 and my soul felt better.
-Mine has been dependable to the the 6k round mark. It is a good gun that I do enjoy, although my oldest son calls me Sonny Crocket when I pull it, now that he has seen Miami Vice. Would I deploy overseas with it, no, but at this point mine my particular gun has proven itself to me and if I had to reach for it in a SHTF moment I would. I like have different types of guns in my collection not all of which are suitable for a military or LE applications other folks do not so it just depends on your taste.
-My recommendation if you decide you want one is to find one in stock and give it a good visual inspection looking for loose furniture, canted rails, or machining errors in the action. If you want something you want to "Swissify" as I did it is a good jumping off point for a project. Just be sure to run a thousand rounds thru it first, as you would any new gun, before changing too much in case you do need a warranty repair.
Exactly and very comprehensive.
chapperjoe
02-25-11, 11:56
The only people that are qualified to comment on this matter are people that own both a SIG550 series gun and a SIG556.
If someone doesn't own a SIG550, then they are not qualified to comment about how there SIG556 is "just as good as" or a "military grade weapon" like the SIG550.
So, if you want to claim your SIG556 is the same as a SIG550 and you don't own a SIG550, your post is irrelevant.
I must have misunderstood the original posters intent. I was under the impression he was asking for opinions on the 556.
Having had experience with both the 551/552 & owning a 556 I can give you my opinion.
-The 556 is a commercial copy of a military weapon that is altered to take AR mags and is not built to the level of a 551/2/3, while it uses a similar system. A few of us really wanted a 551/2 and got fishgills early on which was a real dissapointment.
-The 556 was built to a price point, not to a TDP "standard". At 800-900 it is arguably a decent value, at $1200-2k it was a epic rip off.
-During the election and after they were shoving them out the door as fast as they could to keep up with orders and combined with the lesser degree of QC instituted at SIG some real dogs got out the door. I had been told the warranty service costs of fixing them got their attention but with the outsourcing of parts and different vendors who knows.
-The furniture is now better executed. But if you have held a 551 comparatively it still kinda feels like playskool stuff. However you can now purchase real SAN furniture, sights, & parts (remember 922r) here in the US to upgrade it if you wish. You can order the real adjustable swiss stock from the Gun Factory or the bantam from Colorado gun sales. You can even purchase a swiss lower that will only take swiss mags, if you want to hang with 50 dollar mags. And skip their rails, there are better after market rail products.
I took off the Sig Sauer red dot and put it in a box with a note that said "Are you kidding me??" and mailed it to Exeter attention Ron Cohen. It was a exercise in futility but it was a well spent $10 and my soul felt better.
-Mine has been dependable to the the 6k round mark. It is a good gun that I do enjoy, although my oldest son calls me Sonny Crocket when I pull it, now that he has seen Miami Vice. Would I deploy overseas with it, no, but at this point mine my particular gun has proven itself to me and if I had to reach for it in a SHTF moment I would. I like have different types of guns in my collection not all of which are suitable for a military or LE applications other folks do not so it just depends on your taste.
-My recommendation if you decide you want one is to find one in stock and give it a good visual inspection looking for loose furniture, canted rails, or machining errors in the action. If you want something you want to "Swissify" as I did it is a good jumping off point for a project. Just be sure to run a thousand rounds thru it first, as you would any new gun, before changing too much in case you do need a warranty repair.
Well done.
I look at the SIG 556 as I do a Bushmaster or DPMS carbine.
CAN you get a good one that runs as it should? Sure.
Are the chances that you are going to get one with fleas much higher than it should be? Yes.
Can you spend time and money replacing parts on the carbine that should have been done right the first time at the factory? Yes.
Should you have had to? No, especially knowing that they could have done it right the first time, but chose not to.
Sigmax, that is perhaps the best assessment of the 556 and all the related issues, good and bad, that I have ever read.
In the figure I am simply gonna quote it when this question is asked again.
Sigmax, that is perhaps the best assessment of the 556 and all the related issues, good and bad, that I have ever read.
In the figure I am simply gonna quote it when this question is asked again.
I agree. Spot-on assessment.
I like my 556, but it has undergone a bit of a metamorphosis. Sig red dot has since been sold.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5766/dsc03235i.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5576/dsc03233v.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4143/dsc03234m.jpg
I've had great luck with all 6 of the various 556 models I've owned...
The green 556s a little closer matching set now...
http://i56.tinypic.com/s1n3i8.gif
http://i55.tinypic.com/awojno.gif
http://i54.tinypic.com/4sjtjn.gif
http://i53.tinypic.com/105wh2o.gif
Well done.
Can you spend time and money replacing parts on the carbine that should have been done right the first time at the factory? Yes.
Should you have had to? No, especially knowing that they could have done it right the first time, but chose not to.
I just disagree with this last part, Temp. Everyone changes out their furniture or BUIS for better, aftermarket ones on AR's. It's par for the course on AR's. When was the last time you saw a M4 or old school CAR stock on a modern M4 carbine? When was the last time you saw old school round handguards on an M4 carbine? It's how MAGPUL came to be and made a name for themselves. The cheap Red Dot can go on a .22 or another fun gun and simply replace with an Aimpoint.
The core of the 556 is fundamentally sound as it is a direct copy of the Swiss version. I'd also much rather have the aluminum upper/lower over the stamped steel version. Everything else sans the buttstock (American copy of the Swiss version) and the BUIS is the same as the Swiss version. The only thing left to be desired is the QA/QC, IHMO.
I would definitely pick up the SIG556, or the 556R over my 6920 (or any of my AR's or AK's) in any SHTF type situation.
I just disagree with this last part, Temp. Everyone changes out their furniture or BUIS for better, aftermarket ones on AR's. It's par for the course on AR's. When was the last time you saw a M4 or old school CAR stock on a modern M4 carbine? When was the last time you saw old school round handguards on an M4 carbine? It's how MAGPUL came to be and made a name for themselves. The cheap Red Dot can go on a .22 or another fun gun and simply replace with an Aimpoint.
The core of the 556 is fundamentally sound as it is a direct copy of the Swiss version. I'd also much rather have the aluminum upper/lower over the stamped steel version. Everything else sans the buttstock (American copy of the Swiss version) and the BUIS is the same as the Swiss version. The only thing left to be desired is the QA/QC, IHMO.
I would definitely pick up the SIG556, or the 556R over my 6920 (or any of my AR's or AK's) in any SHTF type situation.
I'm talking about the absolute lack of QC and especially the earlier rifles with that gawd awful commercial M4 stock set up.
The barrel is fine on the 556, but that's about all I'm trusting. As I've said a couple of times, I have a buddy who was in charge of bringing this product to market, and left SIG when it began turning into what was released.
I sincerely hope SIG gets their head pulled out of their ass and can release a consistently superior carbine, but so far, I've not seen anything that makes me think they will.
Which is a shame, because I'd really like one.
I just disagree with this last part, Temp. Everyone changes out their furniture or BUIS for better, aftermarket ones on AR's. It's par for the course on AR's. When was the last time you saw a M4 or old school CAR stock on a modern M4 carbine? When was the last time you saw old school round handguards on an M4 carbine?
No it isn't.
Over half the AR15s I have have regular handguards because I don't want or need the bulk of a rail. Real AR-15 handguards (Colt) are a fiber reinforced heat reistance composite and are quality.
The stuff that comes on lesser brands is just a black flexible shitty plastic.
The core of the 556 is fundamentally sound as it is a direct copy of the Swiss version.
Nobody is doubting the operating system.
I would definitely pick up the SIG556, or the 556R over my 6920 (or any of my AR's or AK's) in any SHTF type situation.
Its statements like this where you lose credibility.
A SIG556 is a price point gun (created specifically for the domestic American non professional gun user market) and is not in the same class as a:
Colt AR-15
FN FAL
HK G3
Steyr AUG
SIG 550
or any other first world infantry rifle built to a standard. It just isn't.
For the 556 to be brought up to the level of the 550 a number of things would have to happen.
1. Same barrel as the 550. Right now the barrels are not interchangable.
2. Paint over park finish.
3. Swiss furniture throughout.
4. Same hight diopter sights as the 55x series.
5. Same receiver rail.
6. Stop with the junk red dot sights and other junk acessories.
And none of this will happen anytime soon.
You have to have experience with the 556s to understand why owners trust them over other options. Don't tell a guy who has owned one that he has less credibility than you do if you dont have experience with them. Doing so will make you lose credibility.
Its statements like this where you lose credibility.
A SIG556 is a price point gun (created specifically for the domestic American non professional gun user market) and is not in the same class as a:
Colt AR-15
FN FAL
HK G3
Steyr AUG
SIG 550
or any other first world infantry rifle built to a standard. It just isn't.
Its statements like this where you lose credibility.
And you have any?
:rolleyes:
MountainRaven
02-27-11, 14:16
For the 556 to be brought up to the level of the 550 a number of things would have to happen.
1. Same barrel as the 550. Right now the barrels are not interchangable.
2. Paint over park finish.
3. Swiss furniture throughout.
4. Same hight diopter sights as the 55x series.
5. Same receiver rail.
6. Stop with the junk red dot sights and other junk acessories.
And none of this will happen anytime soon.
Forgive me for saying so, but none of this sounds to be as important to the rifle's functioning as, say, a shot-peened and MPI'd bolt, weak extractor springs, and failing to properly stake the castle nut and gas key, &c. It seems primarily superficial.
Judging from gunbroker, these weapons are selling for about $1000, in 'Classic' format. So with that as a basis:
1-I don't understand why this is important. Please explain.
2-DuraCoat Airbrush Kit and paint: $50.
3-Colorado Gun Sales SG551 furniture: $475
4-Aurora Industries sight set: $285
5-I tend to agree. (This is definitely not superficial.)
6-I tend to agree. (This is just silly.)
Those are some pretty expensive cosmetic issues!
:eek:
At this point, we're looking at over $1800, including the host weapon. At this same price point we have:
-Bushmaster ACR Basic
-Daniel Defense M4 V5 LW carbine with folding sights and mid-length gas system (at full MSRP)
-KAC SR-15 E3 upper with Spikes/DD/BCM/Noveske/S&W/&c. lower plus $X00
-Noveske 16" Rogue Hunter plus $200
-LWRCi M6A1 (if you play your cards right)
For a little more, you can get a complete KAC SR-15 E3 IWS, SCAR 16S, Steyr AUG, a folding stock for your ACR Basic, an FS2000, or any of a large number of fine domestic rifles or unusual/different foreign rifles.
Forgive me for saying so, but none of this sounds to be as important to the rifle's functioning as, say, a shot-peened and MPI'd bolt, weak extractor springs, and failing to properly stake the castle nut and gas key, &c. It seems primarily superficial.
The six points are assuming the internals are the same as a Swiss gun.
Forgive me for saying so, but none of this sounds to be as important to the rifle's functioning as, say, a shot-peened and MPI'd bolt, weak extractor springs, and failing to properly stake the castle nut and gas key, &c. It seems primarily superficial.
Judging from gunbroker, these weapons are selling for about $1000, in 'Classic' format. So with that as a basis:
1-I don't understand why this is important. Please explain.
2-DuraCoat Airbrush Kit and paint: $50.
3-Colorado Gun Sales SG551 furniture: $475
4-Aurora Industries sight set: $285
5-I tend to agree. (This is definitely not superficial.)
6-I tend to agree. (This is just silly.)
Those are some pretty expensive cosmetic issues!
:eek:
At this point, we're looking at over $1800, including the host weapon. At this same price point we have:
-Bushmaster ACR Basic
-Daniel Defense M4 V5 LW carbine with folding sights and mid-length gas system (at full MSRP)
-KAC SR-15 E3 upper with Spikes/DD/BCM/Noveske/S&W/&c. lower plus $X00
-Noveske 16" Rogue Hunter plus $200
-LWRCi M6A1 (if you play your cards right)
For a little more, you can get a complete KAC SR-15 E3 IWS, SCAR 16S, Steyr AUG, a folding stock for your ACR Basic, an FS2000, or any of a large number of fine domestic rifles or unusual/different foreign rifles.
The entire premise that it must be a Swiss equivalent to be worthy of appreciation is silly.
1-the barrel on 556s is fine
2-I'd rather have the option to keep the finish it has and save $50
3-it doesn't need the Swiss furniture. The Swiss guns have more play in the hand guards than the US ones do with the classic versions. The grip in the US has a nice extended section to cover the trigger guard gap, the Swiss grips don't. The Swiss went to the collapsing side folder, the US version is a slightly less tight replication. Not a big deal. Save the $475 and keep it as is or swap out certain parts if you really want to change it up.
4-these would be nice BUT some folks would be fine with AR sights and might want to save the $ to have that option
5-Agree 100%, I'd rather save the $25-$30 they paid to put this crap on there
The Swiss guns have more play in the hand guards than the US ones do with the classic versions.
Interesting; that is not my experience. My Swiss 551-2SP has handguards that are very tight.
The grip in the US has a nice extended section to cover the trigger guard gap, the Swiss grips don't.
Not needed with the Swiss lower, but an absolute requirement for the 556 lower with its AR15-type trigger guard.
variablebinary
02-27-11, 19:32
The entire premise that it must be a Swiss equivalent to be worthy of appreciation is silly.
1-the barrel on 556s is fine
The 556 barrel is not QC'ed to the standards mandated by Swissarms to ensure a barrel life between 20k and 30k rounds under adverse conditions. Each 55x barrel is individually measured and evaluated to ensure high standards among service weapons. The 556 barrel is not MP or HPT tested like the 55x to validate the quality of the metalugy. It features barely any QC at all.
2-I'd rather have the option to keep the finish it has and save $50
The 55x is not just a finish for color. The proper 55x is a highly durable epoxy finish that is far more resilient when it comes to salt water, rain water, mud and sand. This is backed by thousands of hours of testing by Swiss Arms. The 556 will rust if you sneeze on it.
3-it doesn't need the Swiss furniture. The Swiss guns have more play in the hand guards than the US ones do with the classic versions. The grip in the US has a nice extended section to cover the trigger guard gap, the Swiss grips don't. The Swiss went to the collapsing side folder, the US version is a slightly less tight replication. Not a big deal. Save the $475 and keep it as is or swap out certain parts if you really want to change it up.
Every 556 I've seen could pull double duty as maracas. Also, the 55x grip doesn't need a "gapper" because it doesn't feature a poorly designed, injurious 90 degree aluminum edge where the shooter's hand is. This is just another example of SIG USA's stupidity.
4-these would be nice BUT some folks would be fine with AR sights and might want to save the $ to have that option
The 556 shoulders wrong compared to the 55x. Anyone that has spent time with both would know this. The 55x sights provides a better ergonomic feel with shouldering the weapon because that is the way it was designed from day one.
The 556 will rust if you sneeze on it.
VB, please, you've blown your credibility with all of the irrational statements you make against the 556 over the last few years. We get it-you really, really, really hate them. We also know you've never owned one and have very little experience with them.
The 556 barrel is not QC'ed to the standards mandated by Swissarms to ensure a barrel life between 20k and 30k rounds under adverse conditions. Each 55x barrel is individually measured and evaluated to ensure high standards among service weapons. The 556 barrel is not MP or HPT tested like the 55x to validate the quality of the metalugy. It features barely any QC at all.
Do you know who forges Sig's 556 barrels for them?
Interesting; that is not my experience. My Swiss 551-2SP has handguards that are very tight.
There must be some variance in the gas blocks/ hand guards as I've seen other folks report the other experience. No biggie, as it is an easy fix on either the domestic or Swiss guns.
variablebinary
02-27-11, 19:43
VB, please, you've blown your credibility with all of the irrational statements you make against the 556 over the last few years. We get it-you really, really, really hate them. We also know you've never owned one and have very little experience with them.
You're right. I made it up. I have no proof that the SIG 556 rusts easier than the 55x...
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g377/VariableB/rustysig556turd.jpg
It's true. I have no experience with the 556. I didn't run it in a carbine class (Though I did switch off to the XCR, and LWRC throughout the day I admit)
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g377/VariableB/VB556.jpg
I'd be pissed if my rifle did that.
The entire premise that it must be a Swiss equivalent to be worthy of appreciation is silly.
1-the barrel on 556s is fine
2-I'd rather have the option to keep the finish it has and save $50
3-it doesn't need the Swiss furniture. The Swiss guns have more play in the hand guards than the US ones do with the classic versions. The grip in the US has a nice extended section to cover the trigger guard gap, the Swiss grips don't. The Swiss went to the collapsing side folder, the US version is a slightly less tight replication. Not a big deal. Save the $475 and keep it as is or swap out certain parts if you really want to change it up.
4-these would be nice BUT some folks would be fine with AR sights and might want to save the $ to have that option
You are proving my point for me.
Save a little here and there and you end up with below standard gun.
Like I said, the SIG556 is built to a price point for people like yourself. It is not built to a military grade level.
VB, please, you've blown your credibility with all of the irrational statements you make against the 556 over the last few years. We get it-you really, really, really hate them. We also know you've never owned one and have very little experience with them.
Stamped and welded sheet metal is very rust prone due to the grain structure of the metal being at a higher energy state.
Look at the picture variable posted. Rust around the welds and sharp bends. Classic example of this.
That is why HK roller locked guns and SIG550s are painted.
Do you know who forges Sig's 556 barrels for them?
IMHO it doesn't matter at this point.
The Sig 556 is a silly nonsense rifle. I couldn't fine a single thing it did better than a real AR.
lloydkristmas
02-27-11, 23:43
I spent a weekend in the desert shooting with some buddies, and got to see a Sig 556 in action. Each shooter probably killed at least 700-1000 rounds. While I cant speak for much else, it WAS reliable, I'll give it that. Much more so than the jammomatic MSAR clone and the Bushmaster AR15 that were out there.
If it cost around $650-$750, I could see it as being a more ergonomic alternative to the AK, especially now that theyve released a 7.62x39 version. As is, with prices hovering around 1000 bucks, the AR (or a nice AK) is still the better choice.
There must be some variance in the gas blocks/ hand guards as I've seen other folks report the other experience. No biggie, as it is an easy fix on either the domestic or Swiss guns.
Hmmm, I own every Swiss variant except the sniper and I don't know what the hell you are talking about. The handguards on every single one of them is fine.
The only problem I've ever heard of is when you put Swiss handguards on the US 556 rifle. It is something I noticed a little on my WCA SG 551.
IMHO it doesn't matter at this point.
Sure it does, if someone is going to say it has a crap barrel (it doesn't). There are lots of things wrong with it, the barrel isn't one of them.
I don't really give a crap about the 556, and wouldn't care if another one never left the factory. I am a huge fan of the 55X series. There's a 551 in my safe. Yeah, Sig made it with a crappy lower, mags, and furniture. Yeah, I wouldn't buy anything Sig USA touches. Yeah, Sig sucks now. But it's not like the guns disassemble themselves at will or explode on contact with human hands.
Sure it does, if someone is going to say it has a crap barrel (it doesn't). There are lots of things wrong with it, the barrel isn't one of them.
I don't really give a crap about the 556, and wouldn't care if another one never left the factory. I am a huge fan of the 55X series. There's a 551 in my safe. Yeah, Sig made it with a crappy lower, mags, and furniture. Yeah, I wouldn't buy anything Sig USA touches. Yeah, Sig sucks now. But it's not like the guns disassemble themselves at will or explode on contact with human hands.
All very true, and knowing who does the barrels for SIG USA, I don't have any worries with them. It's just such a damn let down as far as what the 556 easily could have been and what they actually produce, and at the price point they're doing it at. A properly done SIG 556 wouldn't have had to cost $3K to have been done right. I don't care that the barrels are different than the 550/551, as long as they are built to a quality standard and have an appropriate rate of twist....I'm fine with that.
I'm fine with them being built to accept M16 magazines.
I'm not fine with the lack of QC and the dumbing down of the carbine.
I don't think they kerplode in people's hands. I do know that they have a strong history of having out of spec rails, finish, and crap components thrown on them.
Unfortunately, while SIG under Cohen has lost most of their serious users, they are still riding the glory from the 80's and early 90's and have no problem selling most of the guns they produce. Since he's making money for them, I doubt the Germans are going to take any corrective action. Since the Germans who now own Sauer are businessmen more interested in their profit margins than their commitment to producing world class weaponry, things aren't going to change any time soon.
**Edited to add -- I'm typing this while wearing a 1989 produced SIG P226. I don't hate SIG, just highly disappointed in them.**
IMHO it doesn't matter at this point.
It matters to those looking for some factual information on the subject; even if it is purely academic.
Sure it does, if someone is going to say it has a crap barrel (it doesn't). There are lots of things wrong with it, the barrel isn't one of them.
I don't really give a crap about the 556, and wouldn't care if another one never left the factory. I am a huge fan of the 55X series. There's a 551 in my safe. Yeah, Sig made it with a crappy lower, mags, and furniture. Yeah, I wouldn't buy anything Sig USA touches. Yeah, Sig sucks now. But it's not like the guns disassemble themselves at will or explode on contact with human hands.
The barrel is not interchangable with a 550. That is why it doesn't matter who makes it, or how quality it is or isn't.
A SIG556 cannot be rebuilt into a 550 because of this and this is the whole underlying issue with this matter. Period
Most of these arguments would not be taking place if you could rebuilt a 556 into a 550, but you can't.
If we could take a reciever from a 556 and buy a 550/551/552 parts kit and build, we wouldn't be bitching.
All very true, and knowing who does the barrels for SIG USA, I don't have any worries with them.
So who is it? I'm curious.
variablebinary
02-28-11, 12:38
So who is it? I'm curious.
As was said, it doesn't really matter because 556 barrels still aren't individually gauged, MP tested and HPT tested as the 55x TDP mandates.
Either these standards matter or they don't.
So who is it? I'm curious.
PM sent
As was said, it doesn't really matter because 556 barrels still aren't individually gauged, MP tested and HPT tested as the 55x TDP mandates.
Either these standards matter or they don't.
Well if making a direct comparison to the 550 or any other rifle that meets our expectations of a military standard you are correct.
But if evaluating the rifle on it's own merits it becomes a factor.
I doubt the Germans are going to take any corrective action.
Happy camp?
I got into AR's with the 556, I still have it. I never had an issue with it and put 6 or 7k rounds through it can't remember. However I had to replace a lot of external parts on it, the stock was flimsy, I didn't care for the iron sights whatsoever. Once I replaced those things I was at least ok with it. Pretty accurate, but I do think I would buy one again if I could go back and do it all over. The one thing I always think about is if this thing breaks, I have yet to see somewhere I could just walk in pick up some parts, and go home to fix it.
You're right. I made it up. I have no proof that the SIG 556 rusts easier than the 55x...
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g377/VariableB/rustysig556turd.jpg
It's true. I have no experience with the 556. I didn't run it in a carbine class (Though I did switch off to the XCR, and LWRC throughout the day I admit)
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g377/VariableB/VB556.jpg
I have owned several of these and they've been taken to the range on wet days and gone through weekend long carbine classes in the wet and nothing like this has ever happened to mine. You would have to go out of your way (like leave the thing out in your backyard for days) to get this kind of result.
I honestly don't think you did any more than pose with a 556 at a range. You despised it from the moment it was announced, why would you have it at a carbine class? You wouldn't.
You are proving my point for me.
Save a little here and there and you end up with below standard gun.
Like I said, the SIG556 is built to a price point for people like yourself. It is not built to a military grade level.
I'm not proving your point. In fact, cost is a huge factor in the govt.'s decision to adopt rifles so if anything, it applies at least as much to your beloved Colts. They were made to a price point as much as any other gun discussed in this thread. And I assume that you would assert that they are made to a 'military grade level', whatever that means.
The Sig 556 is a silly nonsense rifle. I couldn't fine a single thing it did better than a real AR.
Isn't the fact that it is more reliable, less ammo/ mag/ environment sensitive kind of a huge advantage?
Hmmm, I own every Swiss variant except the sniper and I don't know what the hell you are talking about. The handguards on every single one of them is fine.
The only problem I've ever heard of is when you put Swiss handguards on the US 556 rifle. It is something I noticed a little on my WCA SG 551.
I read some posts from folks in Europe who said they have some play in the hand guards.
The barrel is not interchangable with a 550. That is why it doesn't matter who makes it, or how quality it is or isn't.
A SIG556 cannot be rebuilt into a 550 because of this and this is the whole underlying issue with this matter. Period
Most of these arguments would not be taking place if you could rebuilt a 556 into a 550, but you can't.
If we could take a reciever from a 556 and buy a 550/551/552 parts kit and build, we wouldn't be bitching.
Uh...I don't want a long ass 550 barrel sticking out of my 556. Have you seen a picture of a 550?
As was said, it doesn't really matter because 556 barrels still aren't individually gauged, MP tested and HPT tested as the 55x TDP mandates.
Either these standards matter or they don't.
They may not matter at all and they may in fact be some crap you are rattling off for all anybody knows or they may be used on the 556 barrels. I'm convinced that your blind hatred of the 556 would make you spout off just about anything to try and justify it.
Uh...I don't want a long ass 550 barrel sticking out of my 556. Have you seen a picture of a 550?
Well that would be the wrong barrel for a carbine, so for a carbine you'd use a 551 or 551 LB barrel. I think a lot of folks, like VB, are using "550" to refer to the entire series of Swiss firearms as a whole.
Well that would be the wrong barrel for a carbine, so for a carbine you'd use a 551 or 551 LB barrel. I think a lot of folks, like VB, are using "550" to refer to the entire series of Swiss firearms as a whole.
Yeah, the posters point was that the 556 sucked because people wanted to put a 550 barrel on it. I've just never heard a single person say that they didn't like the 556 because you can't put a 550 barrel on it. That isn't a concern of too many people out there.
I read some posts from folks in Europe who said they have some play in the hand guards.
And for all we know they were talking about the Blue Star or some other "civilian" export version. But here is what I know, not what I've heard.
The US semi auto imports (550/551) do not have the problem. I know several collectors who have them and it is not an issue.
The US NFA imports (SBR and select fire) do not have the problem. I know several collectors and dealers who have them and it is not an issue.
The Swiss domestic semi autos do not have that problem. I have one and I've seen a couple others in dealer hands and it is not an issue.
The Swiss military rifles don't seem to have this problem and I have never heard the issue raised by Swiss owners.
Nobody on SwissRifles.com is reporting the issue either, and most of those members are posting from Switzerland.
So with respect to Swiss produced rifles in various civilian, law enforcement and military configurations I've never seen it nor have I heard of anyone who actually has one complain of it.
The ONLY people I've heard raise the issue are those who are installing Swiss furniture on US SIG receiver (556) rifles. And it seems to be a matter of one generation of Swiss furniture working better than another.
The ONLY rifle I personally noticed it on was my WCA SG 551 (US 556 receiver) and it was hardly that critical, I'm assuming it had the better fitting generation of Swiss furniture).
All of the above leads me to believe you have raised a non issue which doesn't exist with the Swiss produced rifles.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled "I love my 556 - Your 556 sucks" programming to be followed by an episode of "I know you are, but what am I?"
:D
Yeah, the posters point was that the 556 sucked because people wanted to put a 550 barrel on it. I've just never heard a single person say that they didn't like the 556 because you can't put a 550 barrel on it. That isn't a concern of too many people out there.
I guess that is already understood by people who are complaining. They just don't explicitly state it.
And this did get brought up when the rifle was first released.
Yeah, the posters point was that the 556 sucked because people wanted to put a 550 barrel on it. I've just never heard a single person say that they didn't like the 556 because you can't put a 550 barrel on it. That isn't a concern of too many people out there.
From what I understand the barrel is produced by a reputable manufacturer. My only issue with it was the hump behind the flash prevented the use of a HALO suppressor. This was solved with the use of a Vltor flash hider but still bothered me.
That said, a lot of people are looking for a Swiss profile rifle and as a result Co Gun Sales does pretty good business with their US made copy of the Swiss 550 and 551 barrels. And while correct in terms of profile, I personally wonder if it is actually as good as the barrel being replaced.
Obviously somebody is buying this stuff.
https://www.cogunsales.com/index.php/SIG-551-556-Parts-Accessories/SIG-550-Profile-Barrel-w/550-Style-Flash-Hider-for-SIG-Sauer-556/Detailed-product-flyer.html
https://www.cogunsales.com/index.php/SIG-551-556-Parts-Accessories/SIG-550/551-Conversion-Kit-w/Barrel/Detailed-product-flyer.html
threeheadeddog
03-01-11, 19:32
The question I have and seems to be kind of avoided is if the 556 is a capable gun. It seems these discussions always go into the not a 55x instead of does it run.
My personal interest in the 556 is that, as far as I can tell, there is still not 552 equivilent gun out there. Folding stock, very short barrel, with a decent safty selector(srry krink's). I would gladly pay 1k for a patrol carbine, 350 for a 55x folder and then have it duracoted when it gets the barrel chop. That is a bit high but if it runs then I would be interested.
My personal dream was that the Masada would be the US made 552 replacement but :( we all know where that has gone. And at the 1800ish pricepoint that the ACR seems to be at now and the likes of AAC doing a better VSBR caliber(maby) it is full of "I only wish".
variablebinary
03-02-11, 01:53
I have owned several of these and they've been taken to the range on wet days and gone through weekend long carbine classes in the wet and nothing like this has ever happened to mine. You would have to go out of your way (like leave the thing out in your backyard for days) to get this kind of result.
I honestly don't think you did any more than pose with a 556 at a range. You despised it from the moment it was announced, why would you have it at a carbine class? You wouldn't.
The 556 rusted because the finish is crap for stamped steel. There is a reason why the 55x has the finish it does, and it isn't because it is pretty.
And I shoot everything. Anyone that knows me or follows my posts knows this much. I might dance with an ugly chick at a party, but that doesn't mean I want to marry one.
Furthermore, your devolving into subtle personal jabs means you've got nothing else to justify the abortion that the SIG 556 is. On it's best day it's a DPMS for people that don't want an AR15. It's a shoulder fired XD on a good day.
Standards matter. The 55x have them, the 556 doesn't. Nothing can reverse this short of SIG USA throwing out Cohen and building SIG's the way the Germans and Swiss intended.
I don't think it is a problem that the Swiss gun owners report because they don't view it as a problem. On US gun boards it has become a common practice to nitpick the 556 to death. Their point seemed to be 'we have that on our too and it's no big deal.' I don't think it is on those guns or the 556s. Just another attempt to focus on ANYTHING that can be viewed as a negative.
And for all we know they were talking about the Blue Star or some other "civilian" export version. But here is what I know, not what I've heard.
The US semi auto imports (550/551) do not have the problem. I know several collectors who have them and it is not an issue.
The US NFA imports (SBR and select fire) do not have the problem. I know several collectors and dealers who have them and it is not an issue.
The Swiss domestic semi autos do not have that problem. I have one and I've seen a couple others in dealer hands and it is not an issue.
The Swiss military rifles don't seem to have this problem and I have never heard the issue raised by Swiss owners.
Nobody on SwissRifles.com is reporting the issue either, and most of those members are posting from Switzerland.
So with respect to Swiss produced rifles in various civilian, law enforcement and military configurations I've never seen it nor have I heard of anyone who actually has one complain of it.
The ONLY people I've heard raise the issue are those who are installing Swiss furniture on US SIG receiver (556) rifles. And it seems to be a matter of one generation of Swiss furniture working better than another.
The ONLY rifle I personally noticed it on was my WCA SG 551 (US 556 receiver) and it was hardly that critical, I'm assuming it had the better fitting generation of Swiss furniture).
All of the above leads me to believe you have raised a non issue which doesn't exist with the Swiss produced rifles.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled "I love my 556 - Your 556 sucks" programming to be followed by an episode of "I know you are, but what am I?"
:D
I guess that is already understood by people who are complaining. They just don't explicitly state it.
And this did get brought up when the rifle was first released.
You do get the difference between a 550 and 551, right?
The question I have and seems to be kind of avoided is if the 556 is a capable gun. It seems these discussions always go into the not a 55x instead of does it run.
Bingo. Some folks give it a ton of crap for what it isn't and no credit for how well it runs.
Furthermore, your devolving into subtle personal jabs means you've got nothing else to justify the abortion that the SIG 556 is. On it's best day it's a DPMS for people that don't want an AR15. It's a shoulder fired XD on a good day.
VB, most of the other posters who slam the 556 at least attempt to exchange info. in a reasonable way and have some meaningful discourse and exchange of views. You get crap for being way over the top and irrational in your hatred of the 556. People aren't picking on you. They are reacting to your own behavior in these exchanges. If there were not enough owners out there whose experiences were very different from the picture you paint, the unwary would get a completely false impression about the 556.
variablebinary
03-02-11, 06:14
VB, most of the other posters who slam the 556 at least attempt to exchange info. in a reasonable way and have some meaningful discourse and exchange of views. You get crap for being way over the top and irrational in your hatred of the 556. People aren't picking on you. They are reacting to your own behavior in these exchanges. If there were not enough owners out there whose experiences were very different from the picture you paint, the unwary would get a completely false impression about the 556.
It's not "Giving me crap", its "too stupid to think of a meaningful retort related to the topic at hand so better to try and make it personal".
There is no meaningful discourse to be had because the fact remains the SIG 556 is poorly QC'ed and poorly proofed by Swiss standards. It's substandard in every conceivable way compared to it's predecessor. There is absolutely no spinning out of this fact.
SIG even botched the mag integration with that rotten magazine release placement. This is because the 556 was never meant to be taken seriously by anyone that has to carry a gun for a living. It's a range toy for bubbas that like Condor plate carriers.
I don't think it is a problem that the Swiss gun owners report because they don't view it as a problem. On US gun boards it has become a common practice to nitpick the 556 to death. Their point seemed to be 'we have that on our too and it's no big deal.' I don't think it is on those guns or the 556s. Just another attempt to focus on ANYTHING that can be viewed as a negative.
No...it isn't reported because it DOESN'T exist.
My God man, the Swiss didn't design and build one of the best small arms on the planet because they don't care about small thing.
More importantly, my post wasn't based solely on people who post on Swiss Rifles.com, with the LONE EXCEPTION of Swiss issued military rifles, I have PERSONAL experience with all of them.
So given that the LE and select fire exports are IDENTICAL (except for markings) to Swiss military rifles, I have shot or actually own all of them except for the sniper variant.
And the loose handguard issue simply isn't there.
It's not "Giving me crap", its "too stupid to think of a meaningful retort related to the topic at hand so better to try and make it personal".
There is no meaningful discourse to be had because the fact remains the SIG 556 is poorly QC'ed and poorly proofed by Swiss standards. It's substandard in every conceivable way compared to it's predecessor. There is absolutely no spinning out of this fact.
SIG even botched the mag integration with that rotten magazine release placement. This is because the 556 was never meant to be taken seriously by anyone that has to carry a gun for a living. It's a range toy for bubbas that like Condor plate carriers.
VB-you've been given numerous meaningful retorts over years of threads and you still try to pull this crap. The fundamental facts are still there. The Sig 556 runs incredibly well. The QC, paint job, cheap accessories and all other nitpicks be damned. They run great. You never have anything to say against the facts without lobbing fantastic, overblown rant about how they are "abortions." You've never won one of these exchanges and you keep coming back for more with that over the top BS. It is amazing.
No...it isn't reported because it DOESN'T exist.
And the loose handguard issue simply isn't there.
It is tough to quantify a blanket statement like that. Unless you've owned or inspected every unit, it is impossible to say that now runs of the Swiss guns have had loose handguards. The information I saw suggested that some did in fact have it just as some, but not all 556s, have apparently had it. Not a big deal in either case.
mine didn't have a loose handgaurd, but the telescoping stock that came on mine is really wobbly, no big deal though I don't like it anyways and will be replacing it soon.
variablebinary
03-02-11, 17:00
VB-you've been given numerous meaningful retorts over years of threads and you still try to pull this crap. The fundamental facts are still there. The Sig 556 runs incredibly well. The QC, paint job, cheap accessories and all other nitpicks be damned. They run great. You never have anything to say against the facts without lobbing fantastic, overblown rant about how they are "abortions." You've never won one of these exchanges and you keep coming back for more with that over the top BS. It is amazing.
There is no winning. It doesn't matter if more people in a thread agree with me, or if peanut gallery try to shift the attention off the SIG 556 and on to me personally. At the end of the day the 556 is still a turd built to sub-Swiss Arms standards.
To say, "but it just runs" still doesn't address the lacking QC and substandard materials, which will absolutely ensure the 556 will always be the first SIG carbine unfit for duty.
It is tough to quantify a blanket statement like that. Unless you've owned or inspected every unit, it is impossible to say that now runs of the Swiss guns have had loose handguards. The information I saw suggested that some did in fact have it just as some, but not all 556s, have apparently had it. Not a big deal in either case.
So you are suggesting that Swiss rifles have that much production variation? Really?
I'm down for the 7.62x39mm. Shit's bangin.
http://www.sigsauerguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/sig-556r-762x39-03.jpg
I've always been looking for a 7.62 soviet rifle that has decent firearm control placement, specifically the selector switch, and the ability to put an optic on top of the receiver right out of the box. I think the AK and VZ can't deliver here, but this SIG rifle seems to be the answer. Reliability and durability is all that I ask for and if the SIG556R can abide by that, then I want one.
The sig556r is hard to ignore if you're looking for a non AK/VZ 7.62 soviet rifle that takes AK mags. What other rifle exists?
To say, "but it just runs" still doesn't address the lacking QC and substandard materials, which will absolutely ensure the 556 will always be the first SIG carbine unfit for duty.
Exactly.
"It runs" does not make up for the lack of a quality finish, the lack of a QCed barrel, the bolt interference issues, the chicom red dot or furniture, or any other issue.
"It runs" is not a quantifiable statement.
As was said before, the 556 is in the same league as a Springfield XD or DPMS AR15.
The basic premis for EBRs is that they be reliable and fairly accurate! That's it guy's!! The other stuff is icing on the cake. As for the AR and comparing it to the SIG556? I can say without a doubt that if the rifle provided to troops in Vietnam was submitted for T/E under the small arms trials put out by the US military.....we would not be fielding hundreds of thousands of ARs!! the rifle was a rinky dink POS.......and it was utterly unreliable. :fie:
The 556 has some crappy furniture.....thats basically it.....it's utterly reliable. These guns run and run well. hell you can grab an off the
shelf 556 and a 55X lower and drop the fire control parts right in to the Swiss lower and attach it to the 556 upper and Viola! I'd say the weapon has to be fairly close to the Swiss 55x series to be able to do that. You can't do that with the MSAR and the AUG.
The 556 is a modernization of the venerable 55x series......which like most Swiss products is badass, but overpriced. I would not be surprised if SIG isn't using the US market as a Test and Evaluation of the 556 and we will keep seeing updated versions. If this is the case then we should see a better buttstock, forearm, and upper rail. We have already been provided with quite a few changes over the past few years.....that's a lot more than I can say for some other companies. I think the 556 is a work in progress:moil: and I am happy to own one. As a matter of fact I plan to buy another pistol and a full size carbine. They shoot well and they're fairly cheap. if you buy an 850 basic version and throw a swiss stock, forearm, diopter site and duracoat finish....you're looking at 475 after 100-125 refund from selling your stock sidefolder and forearm. that's 1325.00 for a pretty slick gun that is painted/protected well, has great plastic on it, I have not had an issue with the SIG diopter site so I don't see a reason to buy the aurora site. MFI has their 3 prong FHs on sale for 35.00...I just bought one and put it on my raifle. I like it alot better than the birdcage that was on it.
So get what makes you happy. At the heart of the 55x series of weapons is basically an AK.
This is nothing more that a fancy AK. AKs run and run and run......so will these. :moil:
It's not "Giving me crap", its "too stupid to think of a meaningful retort related to the topic at hand so better to try and make it personal".
There is no meaningful discourse to be had because the fact remains the SIG 556 is poorly QC'ed and poorly proofed by Swiss standards. It's substandard in every conceivable way compared to it's predecessor. There is absolutely no spinning out of this fact.
SIG even botched the mag integration with that rotten magazine release placement. This is because the 556 was never meant to be taken seriously by anyone that has to carry a gun for a living. It's a range toy for bubbas that like Condor plate carriers.
VB, why do you get so worked up over this? Who gives a shit if the 556 is not up to "Swiss" standards? If you don't like it, then don't buy one and fork out the $$ for the Swiss 55X.
Look at it from a business standpoint. As an owner of a company, would you rather sell 50 $1,000 rifles, or would you rather sell 1 $2,500 rifle? SIG is actually smart by selling a cheaper "bubba" model. They know that 99% of the real "serious gun users" (LE/.gov) are going with the AR15 rifles and don't even take a second look at the 55X series. SIG knows that they have a very slim chance to get a .gov contract over an AR/M style of weapon that is over half the cost of the 55X weapon. From what I have read, the "Swiss" models really don't do anything better than the Colt/LMT's/BCMs ARs. So what you end up doing is selling very few rifles to collectors, which equals less profit for the company. As the owner of the company, what would you do?
I'm also curious as to what you do with your weapons to be so concerned about what is best for the "serious gun user" such as yourself. Do you use them for work, take shooting classes or just collect them?
Speaking of "bubba" guns.... I chuckled to myself a little bit when I read this AAR and saw this picture. I thought to myself, "I would love to see one of the "serious gun users" on this board walk up to this gentleman and call him a bubba for carrying an XD." If you don't know who he is, his name is Pat McNamara and is a former CAG operator.
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/Pat%20McNamara%202-Day%20TAPS%205-6%20FEB%202011/P2060590.jpg
Since no one is ever going to change any one else's mind on these weapons, how about we declare a cease fire and just agree to disagree and any new threads started asking about them, just link the various ones that have already been beaten to death........
VB, why do you get so worked up over this? Who gives a shit if the 556 is not up to "Swiss" standards? If you don't like it, then don't buy one and fork out the $$ for the Swiss 55X.
Look at it from a business standpoint. As an owner of a company, would you rather sell 50 $1,000 rifles, or would you rather sell 1 $2,500 rifle? SIG is actually smart by selling a cheaper "bubba" model. They know that 99% of the real "serious gun users" (LE/.gov) are going with the AR15 rifles and don't even take a second look at the 55X series. SIG knows that they have a very slim chance to get a .gov contract over an AR/M style of weapon that is over half the cost of the 55X weapon. From what I have read, the "Swiss" models really don't do anything better than the Colt/LMT's/BCMs ARs. So what you end up doing is selling very few rifles to collectors, which equals less profit for the company. As the owner of the company, what would you do?
I'm also curious as to what you do with your weapons to be so concerned about what is best for the "serious gun user" such as yourself. Do you use them for work, take shooting classes or just collect them?
Speaking of "bubba" guns.... I chuckled to myself a little bit when I read this AAR and saw this picture. I thought to myself, "I would love to see one of the "serious gun users" on this board walk up to this gentleman and call him a bubba for carrying an XD." If you don't know who he is, his name is Pat McNamara and is a former CAG operator.
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/Pat%20McNamara%202-Day%20TAPS%205-6%20FEB%202011/P2060590.jpg
You are right about that.
One need only compare sales of genuine Steyr AUG A3s to sales of MSAR STG 556 rifles. A lot of folks are perfectly content with "good enuff."
and any new threads started asking about them, just link the various ones that have already been beaten to death........
That's exactly what happened in this thread.
post #2 by steyrAUG
Several opinions of the 556 line are offered in these topics:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=71956
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65223
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=73531
variablebinary
03-03-11, 03:17
I'm also curious as to what you do with your weapons to be so concerned about what is best for the "serious gun user" such as yourself. Do you use them for work, take shooting classes or just collect them?
I don't know you or who you know, so don't concern yourself with what I do.
Just worry about what you do.
Speaking of "bubba" guns.... I chuckled to myself a little bit when I read this AAR and saw this picture. I thought to myself, "I would love to see one of the "serious gun users" on this board walk up to this gentleman and call him a bubba for carrying an XD." If you don't know who he is, his name is Pat McNamara and is a former CAG operator.
I don't care who you are, if we're in the same room I'll say it just like I do here. Every XD I've ever shot was a total piece of shit. I owned one at one point and it was the worst damn pistol I ever spent money on. It's a bubba gun, as is the SIG 556.
Look at it from a business standpoint. As an owner of a company, would you rather sell 50 $1,000 rifles, or would you rather sell 1 $2,500 rifle? SIG is actually smart by selling a cheaper "bubba" model. They know that 99% of the real "serious gun users" (LE/.gov) are going with the AR15 rifles and don't even take a second look at the 55X series. SIG knows that they have a very slim chance to get a .gov contract over an AR/M style of weapon that is over half the cost of the 55X weapon. From what I have read, the "Swiss" models really don't do anything better than the Colt/LMT's/BCMs ARs. So what you end up doing is selling very few rifles to collectors, which equals less profit for the company. As the owner of the company, what would you do?
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. You don't think we already realize all that?
The problem is when people try to lump the 556 into the same category as other first class, first world rifles.
I'm also curious as to what you do with your weapons to be so concerned about what is best for the "serious gun user" such as yourself. Do you use them for work, take shooting classes or just collect them?
That is irrelavent to the topic.
I really wish the mods hadn't closed the thread I started for you Scott:fie:
You and VB could've gone to town.
I don't know you or who you know, so don't concern yourself with what I do.
Just worry about what you do.
I don't care who you are, if we're in the same room I'll say it just like I do here. Every XD I've ever shot was a total piece of shit. I owned one at one point and it was the worst damn pistol I ever spent money on. It's a bubba gun, as is the SIG 556.
You know VB I have to say that even though i most definitely am not a "bubba" I find the term derogatory. You being a black man should be able to understand this. I don't see anyone mentioning "brutha" guns on any of the forums, so maybe you should tone it down some, Bro! :dirol:
You being a black man should be able to understand this.
Really? I thought he was Indian, based on some pics of his.
talk about thread drift......:D
I don't know you or who you know, so don't concern yourself with what I do.
Just worry about what you do.
Like I have told you before, I couldn't care less about you or what you do. But when you talk with authority about firearms and what works or doesn't, as you do, you should be able to back it up with your experience that made you come to those conclusions.
If some guy comes on here and states that Taurus are the best ever and H&K's suck, I will ask him how he came to that conclusion and what experience he has with said weapons. I would expect others to do the same. Until he explains in what area (.mil, LE, collector, training classes etc etc) that they came to their findings with those weapons, their opinion means jack shit to me, and it should to others too.
I don't care who you are, if we're in the same room I'll say it just like I do here. Every XD I've ever shot was a total piece of shit. I owned one at one point and it was the worst damn pistol I ever spent money on. It's a bubba gun, as is the SIG 556.
Ahhh... so you're "that guy." Nice! I would pay the admission of the class just to see you call Pat McNamara a bubba.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. You don't think we already realize all that?
The problem is when people try to lump the 556 into the same category as other first class, first world rifles.
Well, some people don't realize that, and continue to bag on SIG USA for making a gun that sells, but is not what they exactly envision or want.
I can see correcting people when they compare the "Swiss" model vs the 556. It's the same thing if someone compares a Sigma to an M&P, or SIG P250 to a P226. What I don't get is that the arrogant and demeaning attitudes that you and others get when "correcting" someone.
That is irrelavent to the topic.
No, it's very relavent. Like I said above... If someone talks with authority regarding weapons and TTP's, they better be able to state what their experiences are to back it up. You and a few others fail to do so, and I'm not the first one to call you out on it either. I can think of several other threads where you have talked about "real world use" and once asked about your real world experience, you fail to respond or stop posting in the thread.
FTR.... I don't own a 556 or an XD, and I don't plan to purchase either because I have no need for them. I just get sick of the authorative attitudes when the person doesn't rate to have one.
variablebinary
03-04-11, 06:48
I couldn't care less about you or what you do.
Really?
Do you use them for work, take shooting classes or just collect them?
Want a real example of "couldn't care less": S-1, I don't give a shit what you do, the SIG 556 still lacks the materials, QC and proofing of the Swiss rifle it is based on. I honestly could care less about who you are, what you do, what you make or where you sleep.
No one is posting a "m4c's opinion of S-1". This is about the SIG 556. Obviously the product is indefensible and unable to stand on it's own merits because the criticisms and deficiencies are too numerous and too deep to ward off.
The end result are these petty attempts to deflect attention off the 556 by you and others and make this the Scottryan show, or the VB thread, but I could mow lawns, or be in Delta, but 556 is still built to sub-Swiss Arms standards. Deal with that, because that is after all the actual topic on which this thread is built.
lloydkristmas
03-04-11, 10:15
You are right about that.
One need only compare sales of genuine Steyr AUG A3s to sales of MSAR STG 556 rifles. A lot of folks are perfectly content with "good enuff."
Pretty much. However while the Sig 556 isnt perfect, I dont think I'd put it in the same category as the MSAR STG.....
The Sig is a corners-cut attempt to replicate the 55X that is kind of chincy but still reliable at its core, the STG 556 is an inconsistent, unreliable joke.
Neither would be my first choice, but if I was forced to choose, it certainly wouldnt be the Microtech
No one is posting a "m4c's opinion of S-1". This is about the SIG 556. Obviously the product is indefensible and unable to stand on it's own merits because the criticisms and deficiencies are too numerous and too deep to ward off.
Obviously the product is totally defensible because IT WORKS!!!! That is the end game with guns. Period.
The relevent question isn't "Is it a close enough approximation to this other firearm (because if it isn't it is an abortion)?" And you guys try to go so far over the top in your derisive rants that you try to pretend that it isn't nearly as good as it is.
It only becomes the Scottyran or VB show when what you spout off is such outlandish garbage that people pounce on you for it. Have a more reasoned approach and you'll get less grief (but less attention).
variablebinary
03-04-11, 18:23
Obviously the product is totally defensible because IT WORKS!!!! That is the end game with guns. Period.
The relevent question isn't "Is it a close enough approximation to this other firearm (because if it isn't it is an abortion)?" And you guys try to go so far over the top in your derisive rants that you try to pretend that it isn't nearly as good as it is.
It only becomes the Scottyran or VB show when what you spout off is such outlandish garbage that people pounce on you for it. Have a more reasoned approach and you'll get less grief (but less attention).
Saying the that all 556 barrels are not MP/HPT tested as the Swiss TDP mandates is not outlandish.
Saying the grade of materials is inferior to the 55x is not outlandish.
Saying the 556 finish sucks, and promotes rusting like the pic I posted is not outlandish.
Saying the AR15 magazine release integration was botched is not outlandish.
Saying the stock and handguard are made of inferior grade plastics to the 55x is not outlandish
Saying the 556 overall fit and finish is poor compared to the 55x is not outlandish.
Saying the 556 is substandard to the 55x to the extent that it would fail to earn the Swiss quality seal is not outlandish.
What is outlandish? Saying I'm getting "grief" like this is some 5 grade school yard. That is outlandish. It's not grief it's going down silliness road, along with looking for reasons to mention Pat McNamara or whomever.
This is akin to someone joining M4C and asking what do you think of Olympic Arms, and you being the only one that says Olympic is perfect and "just runs" so why bother with Colt, LMT or KAC.
I'm still a little bit shocked that your 556 rusted, I don't doubt that it is possible, but I have left mine outside overnight on hunting trips several times in high humidity, and didn't even clean the thing until I finally got a FTE after a couple thousand rounds of wolf, and I have 0 signs of rusting. Was that your personal rifle that rusted, or is that just a picture you found?
I shot mine a couple of months ago when it was drizzling along with some other other weapons. My XCR, and my AR, my HK53.....I put all of them away in gunsocks while they were damp....and forgot to clean them until last weekend. There was Nada on any one of the rifles so unless you were shooting in acid rain....then I'm going to have to call shenanigans on the photo! :dirol:
Obviously the product is totally defensible because IT WORKS!!!! That is the end game with guns. Period.
And what proof do you have of that?
What major military or LE trial has this weapon won?
What combat has it seen?
Has it even been entered into a trial?
You firing rounds in your back yard and calling it good is not objective evidence.
So I guess it doesn't matter that the finish willl rust.
I guess it doesn't matter the furniture sucks.
I guess it doesn't matter the sights sit at the incorrect height.
After all, it just "runs" so we can look past all that.:rolleyes:
I guess it doesn't matter the sights sit at the incorrect height.
Does that even matter, considering the differences in peoples face structure?
I'm sure not all people have the same distance from cheek bone to the center of their eyes.
So whereas a sig55x would work with person "A" but not person "B", the sig556 would be fine with person "B", but not person "A".
Really?
Yes, REALLY! You're some random dude on the errornet that likes to run his mouth. Shocking! From what I can see, you're a guy that actually believes that people care what he says. Maybe the kids at militaryphotos.net think that you're the shit, but I'm not buying it.
You draw attention to yourself by degrading others with a condesending tone, the "bubba" talk, and typing like you're some type of authority regarding weapons. BS! I brought up Pat McNamara because you like to make blanket statements about people and call them "bubba" because they carry an XD, or don't carry a weapon that lives up to your HSLD so called "standards." Well, he is no bubba in my eyes or the majority on this website. On top of that, you said that you would have no problem calling him that to his face, which shows a lack of respect and maturity on your part. He's served our country for years in one of the top special operation units in the world, has done more things that you could only have a wet dream of doing, and you would disrespect him like that over a weapon? Grow up.
That same lack of respect and maturity shows in your posts to other people on this board too. Quite frankly, I'm very surprised that the mods/staff haven't put a stop to your little rants.
SIG 556 still lacks the materials, QC and proofing of the Swiss rifle it is based on.
Like I said before... who ****ing cares! If you don't like the damn rifle, don't buy one! It's pretty simple, really.
The people that own the 556 seem to be happy with it and don't plan on taking them to war. If they needed a "serious" rifle to go to war with, the .gov would issue them one. Punching holes into paper on a square range as a hobby doesn't call for a "serious" weapon, so let them enjoy their 556's and XD's.
Also, EVERY single weapon made has had QC issues, including your beloved HK416's. A SME on this board recently posted that he has seen hundreds of 416's go back to H&K for QC problems. Does he post that HK sucks in every H&K thread like you do about other weapons/brands? Nope. I've heard about and seen enough M&P's fail that they're at the bottom of my list for a work gun, right above an XD, but do I post my dislike of them in every S&W thread? Nope! Because I know that there are tons of people that are more than satisfied with the M&P's and that the weapon serves them quite well for their needs.
In the end, I have no need/desire to own a 556 or an XD, and as others have said, I think that you need to take the attitude down a notch or ten.
I like my 556, but even I'll admit the quality it isn't worth this length of discussion or argument.
I like my 556
That's all that matters.
I guess since no one is going to just let this die I'll throw my $0.03 in.
If you are the kind of guy who thinks that a Bushmaster/DPMS/Olympic Arms AR carbine is "just as good as/all I need" (i.e. Commercial Grade), then you'll probably be happy with a SIG USA 556, that is, if you get one that has a straight optics rail.
If you're the kind of guy that is of the opinion that your gear should be capable of performing to the highest standards, and built to handle anything that can be thrown at it (i.e. Professional Grade), then you will probably not be satisfied with the SIG USA 556.
I don't think that even the defenders of the rifle would argue that it's anything more than a hobby gun.
I don't think that even the defenders of the rifle would argue that it's anything more than a hobby gun.
but why? Is it because of the interface (canted rails, rust, bad furniture, etc) or because there's something wrong internally?
This is what templar is alluding to... as of now, my 556 works great, but I don't know what would happen if I put 10k through it. Mine is earlier production and has more swiss components. It worked better with some mags and ammo that gave a certain AR of mine a whole lot of trouble. However, the sum total of reliability consists of more than a couple trips to the range.
I'm more confident in the long term performance capabilities of my AR simply because if someone puts an AR together the right way, with the right parts, it will last and be reliable. I would be dead nuts confident in an MR556 or or FN SCAR too.
There are two components to a consistent and reliable rifle besides the actual design.
1) The environment it was built in (IE the factory and technical staff)
2) The quality of the components and quality control
The rifle they are producing is more like a WASR-10 in this respect than a SLR-107R. This comparison is not 100% accurate, but it is the best I can come up with. SIG is doing the same thing with their handguns too, no quality control, pissing their reputation away in a way worse manner. Like one LEO on the forum commented, their agency pricing structure is structured around how much additional quality control you want.
but why? Is it because of the interface (canted rails, rust, bad furniture, etc) or because there's something wrong internally?
the upper is basically the same as a SIG 55x series rifle and the lower's internals drop right into the SIG 55x series lowers. that's why the SIG SAN kits are so expensive now. before the 556 came out you could pick up a complete Swiss SIG parts kit for 1300-1400 dollars. Long mountain used to have them for sale. Once people realized they could take a "POS" 556 and drop the trigger group into the lower and swap out the furniture and mate the lower to the upper, these kits sold like hot cakes.
If this weapon was so inferior when it came to the internals then why would people bother? guys out there that know way more than we do about these weapons figured this out and decided these weapons were good eough to mate to their precious SIG kits and viola.....the price of a kit doubled.
I mean why not. A semi pre-ban rifle can sell for 9-12K.
they can make a rifle that performs just as well for a fraction of the cost. The whole barrel thing is a wash the barrels are produced by a good company and I haven't heard of anyone having problems with them.
I've seen plenty of these conversions on Arfcom and they look damn good. So once again I don't see how the basic platform is a problem. Let's address the fit and finish. The finish is crap. I don't deny that. They should have painted the whole thing SIG grey, instead of having a parkerized lower and painted upper. My first SIG, the pistol, marked up the reciever behind the ejection port, but I've heard the real SIGs do the same thing. A lot of us have just put a piece of electrical tape or velcro behind the ejection port and that solved that problem. every rifle I have handled has had a rock solid fit between the lower and the upper. So that's not an issue, where as I've handled plenty of ARs that have had play. So that's not as issue. The plastic is substandard crap. It's like buying a luxery car and the put 4 donut spares on instead of custom wheels and tires. So yeah that's shit.
The rail on the upper reciever. I haven't had an issue with mine, but have heard of others having a problem. With member belonging to more than one forum you have to wonder how many of the canted rail or loose rail stories are about the same weapons? So I don't know about that one.
SIG has good customer service and if there is an issue I hear they take care of it. So that's a positive.
I say like before. If you like the rifle. Buy one, but leave room in your budget to spend the extra 400-500 dollars and make it into a great little rifle ( new furniture and duracoat in Swiss grey). If you really want to you can spend the extra 900-1300 for a lower and slap that on to the upper. pull the rail from the upper reciever and weld a Swiss diopter to it and you can't tell the difference between the two.
I'm not a SIG guru, but I've been told that most of the internals were/or are imported from SIG. I believe the early models even had the Swiss proof marks that VB was talking about.....FYI!
That's it in a nutshell. off the shelf it's a good plinker, 400-500 dollars and you can make it into a reliable rifle. 1500 dollars and you can have Swiss furniture and a Swiss lower with 556 trigger groups a great reliable weapon. For 2K plus the rifle you can have a SIG rifle that is on par or damn close to the Swiss rifle. There are plenty of guys who have done this and are very happy with the end product.
i think this just about covers the whole arguement.....IMO. anyone else want to kick this horse.....it's starting to smell!! :fie:
variablebinary
03-04-11, 23:57
Short and sweet, 125 words or less…
Yes, REALLY! You're some random dude on the errornet that likes to run his mouth. Shocking! From what I can see, you're a guy that actually believes that people care what he says. Maybe the kids at militaryphotos.net think that you're the shit, but I'm not buying it.
Then stop worrying about I post.
You draw attention to yourself by degrading others with a condesending tone, the "bubba" talk, and typing like you're some type of authority regarding weapons. BS! I brought up Pat McNamara because you like to make blanket statements about people and call them "bubba" because they carry an XD, or don't carry a weapon that lives up to your HSLD so called "standards." Well, he is no bubba in my eyes or the majority on this website. On top of that, you said that you would have no problem calling him that to his face, which shows a lack of respect and maturity on your part. He's served our country for years in one of the top special operation units in the world, has done more things that you could only have a wet dream of doing, and you would disrespect him like that over a weapon? Grow up.
I spoke about the XD, only the XD and my personal experience with the XD when responding
That same lack of respect and maturity shows in your posts to other people on this board too. Quite frankly, I'm very surprised that the mods/staff haven't put a stop to your little rants.
You’re going off into hissy fit land. A lack of maturity is shown by your devolving into childish personal attacks
Like I said before... who ****ing cares!
You care, sadly.
The people that own the 556 seem to be happy with it and don't plan on taking them to war.
Does that address the SIG 556 QC issues? Many are happy Olympic arms. That doesn’t make it a good gun.
Also, EVERY single weapon made has had QC issues, including your beloved HK416's. A SME on this board recently posted that he has seen hundreds of 416's go back to H&K for QC problems. Does he post that HK sucks in every H&K thread like you do about other weapons/brands?
The same people tend to participate in 416 threads. Few throw a tantrum or go off the deep end. Irrespective of whatever buffoonery is injected into the conversation, the 556 is still substandard by Swiss standards
SIG is doing the same thing with their handguns too, no quality control, pissing their reputation away in a way worse manner. Like one LEO on the forum commented, their agency pricing structure is structured around how much additional quality control you want.
I have never had a problem with SIG Classic pistols, and at work, the SIGs and H&K's have proved more reliable than all others (1911's, XD, Beretta, M&P's, Glocks in 9mm .40 & .45). I have never been asked about additional pricing for more QC. In fact, I just ordered a P239 9mm 2 days ago on a letterhead and didn't hear that question asked.
If I saw the problems that are rumored about SIGs Classic P-Series, I would not continue to buy them, risking my life, my co-workers, my family or the public. I just haven't seen it. If I did, I would get rid of the SIGs tomorrow and buy H&K's to replace them, one for one.
Like I said above... Every manufacture puts out lemons, that's why it's so important to function check your new weapon with at least 500-1k rounds before carrying it.
I have never had a problem with SIG Classic pistols, and at work, the SIGs and H&K's have proved more reliable than all others (1911's, XD, Beretta, M&P's, Glocks in 9mm .40 & .45). I have never been asked about additional pricing for more QC. In fact, I just ordered a P239 9mm 2 days ago on a letterhead and didn't hear that question asked.
If I saw the problems that are rumored about SIGs Classic P-Series, I would not continue to buy them, risking my life, my co-workers, my family or the public. I just haven't seen it. If I did, I would get rid of the SIGs tomorrow and buy H&K's to replace them, one for one.
Like I said above... Every manufacture puts out lemons, that's why it's so important to function check your new weapon with at least 500-1k rounds before carrying it.
I have seen it, and I love SIG Classic pistols. Central VA was all SIG at one time, with VASP, RPD, all the surrounding counties carrying some type of SIG P22X pistol. After 1995, there was a marked increase in serious issues with newly acquired pistols, many cracked frames, reliability issues.
SIG's complete lack of customer service for these departments caused a mass exodus away from SIG and into Glock's hands.
I saw this first hand.
Currently, only two major departments in VA still actively issue SIG pistols, that I'm aware of. VA State Police issue the SIG P229 DAK in .357 SIG and Richmond PD issues the SIG PRO in .357 SIG as well. Richmond were basically given the PRO's for free.
There have been more than one credible members who are the armorers for their departments posting about very serious issues both in quality and service from SIG. Not talking about individual officer purchases, but multiple dept. wide purchases.
Sure, every single manufacturer can and will release weapons that shouldn't have ever gotten out the door, HK included, BUT, there are some manufacturers that this has become much more commonplace than it should, and unfortunately, SIG USA is in that camp.
If you go back and read through the first couple of pages of this thread, before people went off the deep end and started taking this shit personally, you'll see people who are very knowledgeable posting their first hand accounts of the issues that they've seen with the 556.
I've seen thousands of SIG handguns over the years in service, and seen a marked decrease in reliability, durability, and quality since 1995. I've personally seen the issues with the 556 that have been outlined in this and other threads.
If people could unwrap themselves from the axel and quit letting personal attachments to inanimate objects and personality clashes color their opinions, and look at these inanimate objects dispassionately, then I don't see how someone can claim that the rifle that SIG USA brought to market could be anything other than a hobby rifle as it currently stands.
This is like hearing a screaming kid in the grocery store line... annoying as hell.
I spoke about the XD, only the XD and my personal experience with the XD when responding
Just like I said, you called it a bubba gun. This is from a page or two back, in response to my Pat McNamara post.
I don't care who you are, if we're in the same room I'll say it just like I do here. Every XD I've ever shot was a total piece of shit. I owned one at one point and it was the worst damn pistol I ever spent money on. It's a bubba gun, as is the SIG 556.
You care, sadly.
Why would I care about a rifle that I don't own and never will? :confused:
Snip
There has been a mass exodus away from the more expensive pistols such as the SIGs and HK's. It's hard for those two companies to compete with the Glocks and S&W who give away guns and free leather. S&W is actually undercutting Glock at their own game right now. When times are tough, as they are now for everyone, free is mighty attractive.
I'm sure SIG does have some problems, just like everyone else does, but I personally haven't seen it. My wifes P239 SAS 9mm was made in Dec 2010 and it's the nicest SIG that I have seen and shot. It now has over 1.2k rounds through it without a bobble... very nice pistol and very accurate (as SIGs are known to be). I read most of the complaints about SIG pistols after they won the DHS contracts and during the Obama rush in '08. When a company has demand/contracts to meet, that's when things get rushed and crap gets on the market. That even happened at the "old SIG." I have a quote saved from a guy that used to work at SIG back then, and he said the same thing.
I've owned SIGs for 13 years, and have used them at work for over 8, and I never had to deal with SIGs customer service until a few weeks ago. The slide safety on my kids' mosquito (SIG doesn't even make it) broke, and I had a new safety for free in the mail box in 3 days, despite the gun being out of warranty for 4 years. So my first call to their CS dept. was a good one.
I'm not "married" to my guns, and I know that they are tools. I don't have "fun guns." I have a use for every single one of them, whether they're for work or my ccw's. I have tried other weapons and none have panned out for me. I could take an issued G17 or 22, but I can't warm up to them. I've even purchased 3 of my own Glocks for personal use and I no longer have them. My last Gen3 G19 was a POS lemon.
I see no need to switch to a different weapon if I am not experiencing problems, or seeing them. I do see many issues with Glocks and M&P's though, and those two are the favorites among the folks on this board.:confused: I personally love how the M&P's feel in my hands, but they have not passed my sniff test. When S&W gets them squared away, I will take another look at them. The only issues that I have seen with the SIGs was when 2 early P226 .40's(pre-rail) barrels bulged from squib loads from a bad lot of range ammo. SIG took care of them I believe. I honestly can't remember ever seeing a problem with H&K pistols, and that says a lot.
FWIW... I'm done on the 556 topic I don't need one or want one.
I'm not telling anyone to dump their SIG pistols. I own them, I carry them daily.
What I'm saying is that you might not have seen the problems, but they are there, and have been for a while. I've owned them since 1989.
I used to work for a SIG LE distributor. I saw thousands of pistols, multiple departments. I know and am friends with former SIG employees, one of whom was tasked with bringing the 556 to market but was basically fired for telling Cohen and the gang that they were ****ing up in bringing out a sub standard arm, when it clearly didn't need to be.
The SIG of today is most definitely NOT the SIG of 15-30 years ago. You rightly place the words of a SME in high regard....did you read what M4Guru said?
Sure it does, if someone is going to say it has a crap barrel (it doesn't). There are lots of things wrong with it, the barrel isn't one of them.
I don't really give a crap about the 556, and wouldn't care if another one never left the factory. I am a huge fan of the 55X series. There's a 551 in my safe. Yeah, Sig made it with a crappy lower, mags, and furniture. Yeah, I wouldn't buy anything Sig USA touches. Yeah, Sig sucks now. But it's not like the guns disassemble themselves at will or explode on contact with human hands.
I'm hoping we're all done with this damn thread.
Snip...
You rightly place the words of a SME in high regard....did you read what M4Guru said?
I'm hoping we're all done with this damn thread.
Yeah, they may have probelms, but like I said, so does everybody else. I did see what M4Guru said.
I have a quote of my own from a SME on this board who is actually currently issued SIGs. ;) Here it is...
The P239 is a well received weapon as it complements the P226 (same manual of arms etc); about the only guys who don't like it are the ones with Guerrilla Hands...
The SIGs delivered to the Teams are some of the highest quality weapons in our inventories.
Truce? :D
PanzerJaeger
03-05-11, 01:51
This may not be the best place/time to ask, but are the SWAT versions of these rifles of any higher quality? My father just got one for Christmas.
variablebinary
03-05-11, 06:55
Just like I said, you called it a bubba gun. This is from a page or two back, in response to my Pat McNamara post.
I see what the issue is now. It's a reading comprehension thing.
Just to be clear, in your world, if one calls the Kalashnikov a communist gun, in the same way the XD is a bubba gun, that means I am calling Larry Vickers and The Katar members of the communist party, since we are name dropping and all.
Think twice before answering. I'll even add pretty pictures.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/Class%204%20Resized/P1000031.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/Class%204%20Resized/P1000110.jpg
Yeah, they may have probelms, but like I said, so does everybody else. I did see what M4Guru said.
I have a quote of my own from a SME on this board who is actually currently issued SIGs. ;) Here it is...
Truce? :D
Sure, but I don't remember ever declaring war......:cool:
The sad fact is though, that the guns that SIG sends to the Navy are built to a much higher standard than what SIG currently sells to civilians and even law enforcement.
Under Cohen, SIG USA instituted a two tiered approach to manufacturing QC, just as Kimber does. One for VIP's and people willing to pay for it (Navy Teams) and commercial grade for everyone else, with a bare minimum of QC.
This may not be the best place/time to ask, but are the SWAT versions of these rifles of any higher quality? My father just got one for Christmas.
Dude, if it works for him and the optics rail is in spec, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Again, no one has been saying that they're going to go kerplode in people's hands.
That same lack of respect and maturity shows in your posts to other people on this board too. Quite frankly, I'm very surprised that the mods/staff haven't put a stop to your little rants.
Well probably because they are the truth?
Like I said before... who ****ing cares! If you don't like the damn rifle, don't buy one! It's pretty simple, really.
Then why bother having such things on this website like Rob's Chart or upholding the standards of the website at all? This isn't arfcom.
Snip
You're irrelevant. I've already wasted enough time on you.
PanzerJaeger
03-05-11, 12:04
Dude, if it works for him and the optics rail is in spec, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Again, no one has been saying that they're going to go kerplode in people's hands.
Oh, I know. I was just wondering if the SWAT models were built to any higher quality, being the most pricy. I've handled the regular ones and the furniture on the SWAT seems much better, but I'm no expert...
Sure, but I don't remember ever declaring war......:cool:
The sad fact is though, that the guns that SIG sends to the Navy are built to a much higher standard than what SIG currently sells to civilians and even law enforcement.
Under Cohen, SIG USA instituted a two tiered approach to manufacturing QC, just as Kimber does. One for VIP's and people willing to pay for it (Navy Teams) and commercial grade for everyone else, with a bare minimum of QC.
Well damn, hopefully I keep getting the "VIP" guns without paying for them then, because in the 8-10k rounds a year that I shoot out of my SIGs, I have not had one problem.
Oh, I know. I was just wondering if the SWAT models were built to any higher quality, being the most pricy. I've handled the regular ones and the furniture on the SWAT seems much better, but I'm no expert...
Well damn, hopefully I keep getting the "VIP" guns without paying for them then, because in the 8-10k rounds a year that I shoot out of my SIGs, I have not had one problem.
Panzer Hunter, the SWAT models aren't really any different aside from the full length rails, some have different muzzle devices.
S-1, as with Bushmaster, Kimber, buying a SIG does not guarantee that you will be getting a piece of crap.....I'll refer to my post way back on Page 2 of this monster, and include currently produced SIG pistols in there as well.
I look at the SIG 556 as I do a Bushmaster or DPMS carbine.
CAN you get a good one that runs as it should? Sure.
Are the chances that you are going to get one with fleas much higher than it should be? Yes.
Can you spend time and money replacing parts on the carbine that should have been done right the first time at the factory? Yes.
Should you have had to? No, especially knowing that they could have done it right the first time, but chose not to.
I have missed a lot from being off of this thread for a day.
http://i56.tinypic.com/sv2oo0.gif
SNIP
Comparing a SIG Classic Series to a Bushmaster, is, well dumb in my opinion. No offense to you, but if we're making comparisons such as that, then we can make them about other brands/models.
If a SIG P-Series = Bushmaster, then Glocks = Olympic Arms, then M&P's = Vulcan/Model 1's.
See what I mean? If we use a tier system regarding handguns and their reliability, then we would end up with something like that, from my experience anyway.
And just for grins, here's a pic from last year's M4C Staff/Mod class down at USTC, taught by Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers. M4Guru was there as well.
I'm the big hairy ugly one with the ONLY SIG on the line....... ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD3/_MG_0104.jpg
Comparing a SIG Classic Series to a Bushmaster, is, well dumb in my opinion. No offense to you, but if we're making comparisons such as that, then we can make them about other brands/models.
If a SIG P-Series = Bushmaster, then Glocks = Olympic Arms, then M&P's = Vulcan/Model 1's.
See what I mean? If we use a tier system regarding handguns and their reliability, then we would end up with something like that, from my experience anyway.
God damn.
Sigh.....I'm done. I've ****ing heard it all.
Army Chief
03-05-11, 12:56
"Clean-up in aisle 9 ..."
AC
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