View Full Version : Assault Rifle in 308/6.8
I've been considering building a beefed up AR for improved barrier blind performance.
I was introduced to the 6.8 when asking about 308 ARs at a store locally. Im not looking for a precision rifle at this point, more of an improved penetration AR(perhaps Ive drank to much of the large caliber cool aide). With the cost of a decent AR10 or equivalent seeming to be around $2500 or so, I was wondering what you give up in shorter ranges with going from 308 to 6.8.
Both Armalite and DPMS seemed to have detractors and LMT seems out of reach price wise so I'm considering A 6.8 build instead. Or even a non AR in 308.
Anchor Zero Six
02-24-11, 13:16
While 6.8 and 6.5 have some serious advantages over 223 I think neither is comparable to a 308.
Also consider 6.8 is still an oddball round meaning not every local shop has ammo. Every place that sells ammo WILL have 308 in some flavor or another. 308 surp ammo can be had at a reasonable cost, last time I purchased German DAG it was 70.00 for 200 rnds. Conversly last time I priced 6.8 the cheap stuff was 15.00 for 20 rounds. Sure it can be had for less if you look on the web but that goes back to whats readily available locally.
If SHTF is a consideration then availability of ammo should be factored in. BTW this is the same logic that kept me from getting a 338LM in leiu of a 300wm...I can get 300wm ammo anywhere.
Reloading can be a deciding factor (I reload) but again you can find cheaper 30cal components than you can for the 6.8
Hope this helps.
A06
TxBob, you might wish to read pages 13 to 19 here: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf.
6.8 mm is a very viable alternative to .308 at closer ranges and out of shorter barrels when using ammunition such as the Nosler 100 gr Accubond PT, Hornady 110 gr OTM, Barnes 85 gr TSX OTM, and Remington 115 gr Core Lokt JSP.
Actually I think page 20 summed it up for my question.
If I understand your report, 7.62x51 has potential, but that potential has not been realized. Current offerings in 7.62x51 offer no advantage over 6.8 SPC for my above criteria.
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Yes there is the commonality issue, but having a 5.56 already, I don't think ammo shortages will be a factor.
Add in an extra $1000 for platform and I'm not seeing the benefit I thought was there for 7.62 NATO.
The nice thing about the 6.8 is that you can set you upper to be like your 556 and get good practice with the cheaper 556 ammo and shoot the 6.8 with it's advantage/ammo when needed.
Page 20 is now a bit dated, as the current crop of 16" barrel .308 rifles like the KAC SR25 EMC, LaRue OBR, LMT MWS, and FN Mk17 SCAR-H are quite good. Likewise, we are starting to see some .308 loads that are optimized to these systems--I would feel very comfortable with a .308 loaded with Federal 165 gr TBBC, Nosler 150 gr Partition, Swift 150 gr Scirocco II, Remington 150 gr Core Lokt Ultra Bonded, Speer 150 Gold Dot, Barnes 150 gr Triple Shock, as well as the Hornady 155 gr AMAX, Hornady 155 gr OTM, and Lapua 155 gr Scenar.
The advantage of 6.8 mm is that it gives me close to .308 terminal performance in a 5.56 mm size package. In addition, I don't have to purchase a new rifle, just an 6.8 mm extra upper, yet I can still continue to practice/train with less expensive 5.56 mm ammunition.
Your primary advantage of .308 over 6.8 will be cost of ammo and it's abundance.
The 6.8 is only 'beefed up' in the sense that it's a bigger caliber. Weight of the weapon and recoil are basically the same as 5.56. You lose a bit of capacity and it's somewhat noisier (not terribly so), but I don't notice an appreciable difference in recoil and my 6.8 16" AR is lighter than a lot of folks' 5.56.
Building a 6.8 upper is always a viable option. Buying another firearm (.308) is too if you've got the money.
I was in the same boat a few months ago, and was always griping about not using my SBR as much as I'd like.
Building a 6.8 upper for a hunting rifle (deer/hogs). Problem solved without spending the coin on a new rifle. Take the savings and spend it on ammo.
nikuraba29
02-27-11, 06:16
Since your looking at a new system, 300 AAC may be an alternative. 30 cal bullet on a 5.56 chassis you would have to change the barrel but would keep the same upper, lower and magazines. I am moving in that direction myself currently. Just waiting on funds to get my noveske upper.
S/F
29
Since your looking at a new system, 300 AAC may be an alternative. 30 cal bullet on a 5.56 chassis....
I'm looking forward to seeing the progress of this round.
Your primary advantage of .308 over 6.8 will be cost of ammo and it's abundance.
Disagree. The primary advantage is better performance against barriers, per the OP. The other factors are important secondary advantages.
Anchor Zero Six
02-28-11, 14:20
Just curious if anybody knows how a 308 loaded with pulled 30-06 AP projectiles fair against barriers?
Disagree. The primary advantage is better performance against barriers, per the OP. The other factors are important secondary advantages.
Well that was my question, but i don't think there is substantial improvement in 308 vs 6.8, at least from what I've heard in this thread. That was one of my main "concerns" I originally was thinking 308 for improved performance in the "turning cover into concealment" vein, but it looks like the 6.8 is "close enough for practical purposes"
I'm still toying with the 6.8 vs 308 because I'm not a reloader yet. And just being me, I like to have the right "loads" Despite being in the gun capital of the world, I still do not see good 6.8 SPC available yet. But the balance is tipping because 308 is not offering the advantages i thought it did.
Well that was my question, but i don't think there is substantial improvement in 308 vs 6.8, at least from what I've heard in this thread. That was one of my main "concerns" I originally was thinking 308 for improved performance in the "turning cover into concealment" vein, but it looks like the 6.8 is "close enough for practical purposes"
I'm still toying with the 6.8 vs 308 because I'm not a reloader yet. And just being me, I like to have the right "loads" Despite being in the gun capital of the world, I still do not see good 6.8 SPC available yet. But the balance is tipping because 308 is not offering the advantages i thought it did.
One thing to think about. When people talk about the .308/7.62x51 being cheap to shoot, they are usually referring to military style 147-150gr FMJ ammo. Once you start looking at Match ammo, TAP style LE/HD rounds, or serious hunting ammo, the .308 advantage decreases if not totally reverses. I have both a 6.8SPC AR and a .308 Remmy 700, so I have had a chance to compare. For instance, I like the Barnes TSX and TTSX rounds for hunting hogs. SSA (Silver State Armory) 6.8 TSX rounds run $24-28 per box, depending on the particular bullet weight and whether you want the hot Tactical rounds. For the 308 (and my kid's .270Win, for that matter,) Federal Vital Shok TSX rounds run $38-42 per box. Hornaday TAP rounds for both run about the same. Also, most of my ammo purchases nowadays are made on the internet. Lots of ammo at good prices, delivered right to my door. Beats scouring the local shops and super-stores for the ammo I want.
Assuming all things were equal in terms of the platform itself...I would think that if cost were the determining factor, I mean a real deal breaker as to whether or not you would or wouldn't own a particular caliber, then why not reload? If you make a conscious decision to buy factory ammunition retail then maybe cost isn't such a big deal and shouldn't be part of the decision making process.
Just a thought.
It's a very valid thought. Even for 5.56 The cost of performance loads is rising rather quickly. There's always a worry in the back of my mind that 6.8 SPC will go away. It's not so much cost as it is availability. I tends to worry a lot more than I probably should. But as you point out reloading takes care of much of that worry or would if I got started.
I really love my Greek G3 it shoots great groups,always goes bang and is built solid. Sure it get dirty fast but it always works. I really love this rifle but it is a heavy battle rifle. Also $2.00.mags cant be beat. This is why I chose 7.62NATO.
Regarding cost, you can get an 6.8 upper for $600. That saves you, what, about $1,900 vs buying an entire .308 AR variant. With some of that savings, you should be able to stash away a lifetime supply of emergency and hunting 6.8 ammo. (of course, the 6.8 will never be a "plinker", but that is what the 5.56 upper is for right?)
Well that was my question, but i don't think there is substantial improvement in 308 vs 6.8, at least from what I've heard in this thread. That was one of my main "concerns" I originally was thinking 308 for improved performance in the "turning cover into concealment" vein, but it looks like the 6.8 is "close enough for practical purposes"
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If defeating barriers was my main concern, I would absolutely prefer 308 over 6.8. If commonality with the ar-15 platform and recoil are similarly important, then of course an ar-15 variant should be considered. Since price is an issue, and short ranges are more the concern, I can see why you are looking at the ar-15 platform and the 6.8 specifically, but then perhaps you should also consider the 300blk which would likely be more cost efficient with common mags and bolts with 5.56.
However a non-AR 308 variant like you said is perhaps more logical, so perhaps a DSA FAL. Can you better described your intended purpose and priorities?
My purposes is a "bigger stick" for CQB. For some reason i still feel a bit outgunned in 5.56.
For a long time I was set on building an EBR outta an M1A, but I finally talked myself off the edge on that one. But I definitly am looking at building a more powerful CQB type rifle with improved penetration and terminal performance. I've heard many of the reports from the field in Afghanistan and Iraq that 5.56 is coming up short in some cases. I also was a long time follower of the AR-15 mailing list where we spoke frequently about barrel length, muzzle velocity, fragmentation, and trends in shorter and shorter barrels. Hell I didn't get a 16 inch barrel until just this year, I had a hard time letting go of that extra velocity.
I think I mentioned in another thread I only in the last 6 months really "discovered" the existance of calibers between 308 and 5.56 so they still are growing on me. Its tough to take that plunge off the well trod path.
(I still have trouble accepting 9mm is ok, I keep catching my self searching for 1911 double stacks...)
nikuraba29
03-01-11, 18:51
Regarding cost, you can get an 6.8 upper for $600. That saves you, what, about $1,900 vs buying an entire .308 AR variant. With some of that savings, you should be able to stash away a lifetime supply of emergency and hunting 6.8 ammo. (of course, the 6.8 will never be a "plinker", but that is what the 5.56 upper is for right?)
Ditto for 300 AAC, but once again even better compatibility. Same MAGs and capacity, bolt, etc., etc... Everything but the barrel as I mentioned earlier. Can use .223/5.56 to plink and keep the 300 AACV upper for a bad day.
S?F
29
Agreed. It is a great match. However, right now at least, I see the spec II 6.8 ammo has having the advantage for longer distance/barrier/hunting work. .300 has the edge for CQB and subsonic. That may change if ammunition innovators get to work on the .300 blk, but full power 6.8 seems like it will always be flatter and faster.
Ditto for 300 AAC, but once again even better compatibility. Same MAGs and capacity, bolt, etc., etc... Everything but the barrel as I mentioned earlier. Can use .223/5.56 to plink and keep the 300 AACV upper for a bad day.
S?F
29
floridajpr
03-04-11, 22:29
Lets get this straight!
Full Auto=Assault Rifle
Semi Auto=NOT an Assault Rifle
Alot of people trying to use the word Assault when it's not on here!
floridajpr
03-04-11, 22:32
If your talking full auto thats fine but if your not stop calling it an ASSAULT Rifle because it's not! Please.
nikuraba29
03-05-11, 05:19
That is your only contribution to this thread is the correct grammar, its semantics dude. I use a semi-auto rifle to bust in your door and take down your house. I just assaulted, I just assualted through the objective, then I am consolidating in your living room, next I am going to resupply on the objective in your fridge, etc. etc.
Whether or not the word assault is used, who cares? stick to the topic.
S/F
29
That is your only contribution to this thread is the correct grammar, its semantics dude. I use a semi-auto rifle to bust in your door and take down your house. I just assaulted, I just assualted through the objective, then I am consolidating in your living room, next I am going to resupply on the objective in your fridge, etc. etc.
Whether or not the word assault is used, who cares? stick to the topic.
S/F
29
There are reasons why people get uptight about this.
For one, it is best to use proper definitions. That way people know what you are talking about and there is no confusion.
Two, it is not to the gun community's advantage to use words that have been twisted by the anti gunners. Assault weapon is one of those words.
So, unless it is a real assault rifle, please, let's call it something else.
There are reasons why people get uptight about this.
For one, it is best to use proper definitions. That way people know what you are talking about and there is no confusion.
Two, it is not to the gun community's advantage to use words that have been twisted by the anti gunners. Assault weapon is one of those words.
So, unless it is a real assault rifle, please, let's call it something else.
There's good ways and bad ways to express this point. Yours was more respectful and what I would expect.
The original thread jacker was just proving the sage wisdom of Mark Twain.
And if it could be a real assault rifle, I would do it. Legally. I'm sorry if that frightens our politicians, but I have no issue with legal machine guns.
And if it could be a real assault rifle, I would do it. Legally. I'm sorry if that frightens our politicians, but I have no issue with legal machine guns.
+1 Neither do I.
It just does no good to our cause to let the anti gunner's scare people with thoughts of "machine guns" when talking about semi auto rifles.
Educating people about machine guns and the legality thereof is a different issue and also an important one.
floridajpr
03-11-11, 16:59
That is your only contribution to this thread is the correct grammar, its semantics dude. I use a semi-auto rifle to bust in your door and take down your house. I just assaulted, I just assualted through the objective, then I am consolidating in your living room, next I am going to resupply on the objective in your fridge, etc. etc.
Whether or not the word assault is used, who cares? stick to the topic.
S/F
29
So if I use my hands and feet to bust in your door and take down your house. I just assaulted, I just assaulted through the objective, then I am consolidating in your living room, next I am going to resupply on the objective in your fridge, etc.etc. IT DOES NOT MAKE MT ARMS AND LEGS AN ASSAULT WEAPON! You must be from up in the NE where everyone thinks that any weapon is an ASSAULT WEAPON! Oh yea, can you try to keep your peeps up in the NE instead of sending them down here to poison my state with their ASSAULT WEAPON BANS! THANK YOU!:mad:
floridajpr
03-11-11, 17:01
There are reasons why people get uptight about this.
For one, it is best to use proper definitions. That way people know what you are talking about and there is no confusion.
Two, it is not to the gun community's advantage to use words that have been twisted by the anti gunners. Assault weapon is one of those words.
So, unless it is a real assault rifle, please, let's call it something else.
Thank You. I was not trying to make anyone mad but the proper terms must be used when it comes to weapons in this country. I am trying to keep mine and help everyone else keep theirs also.:cool:
nikuraba29
03-11-11, 17:19
Thank You. I was not trying to make anyone mad but the proper terms must be used when it comes to weapons in this country. I am trying to keep mine and help everyone else keep theirs also.:cool:
If you use the search function you should find the section on this forum for "They're coming to take our guns!!!" this pareticlur thread is about the pros/cons of .308/6.8/300AAC. And you can take that being from the NE thing and shove it. I am too am from Florida! Big deal, unless you got something to contribute go find a tea party rally or something. Also, for the record my hands and feet are assault weapons.
Semper Fi, loser.
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I think this thread has run its course.
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