View Full Version : Vortex Flash hider
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 14:40
I have been thinking about getting one, did some research and have found nothing but good things. What do you guys think about it?
I've got one and it does a damn fine job. Does nothing for reacoil reduction of course as it is not a compensator. Few do a better job at hiding flash and the ones that do are usually a good deal more money.
Many tests have shown it to be the clear number 2 muzzle device for flash suppression after the AAC blackout. Both are really effective and it' close to being a negligible diff. b/t the two.
So having said that....Is it worth $50 more to have the very best flash suppressor?
I love blackouts and that is what I run but its not the most prudent decision considering that Vortex's work awesome at half the cost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5ih_c_4yo
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 15:37
Many tests have shown it to be the clear number 2 muzzle device for flash suppression after the AAC blackout. Both are really effective and it' close to being a negligible diff. b/t the two.
So having said that....Is it worth $50 more to have the very best flash suppressor?
I love blackouts and that is what I run but its not the most prudent decision considering that Vortex's work awesome at half the cost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5ih_c_4yo
I haven't heard of blackouts before.
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 15:39
I notice they both make a ringing sound. I wonder if its because of its design lol sounds like a tuning fork.
Toyoland66
02-24-11, 16:05
Many tests have shown it to be the clear number 2 muzzle device for flash suppression after the AAC blackout. Both are really effective and it' close to being a negligible diff. b/t the two.
So having said that....Is it worth $50 more to have the very best flash suppressor?
I love blackouts and that is what I run but its not the most prudent decision considering that Vortex's work awesome at half the cost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM5ih_c_4yo
AAC Blackout isn't twice the cost of a vortex unless you get a QD version. Midway USA carries them
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 16:19
AAC Blackout isn't twice the cost of a vortex unless you get a QD version. Midway USA carries them
Is this is? If so I found it for basically the same price as a vortex. I see there are different versions,..is this the right one?
http://www.thegunfever.com/AACO100197.html
Is this is? If so I found it for basically the same price as a vortex. I see there are different versions,..is this the right one?
http://www.thegunfever.com/AACO100197.html
Exactly. They are both around the same price for the non suppressor version. I like the looks of the blackout better also.
I didn't know there was a less expensive version of the blackout....interesting...learn something new every day....lol
Cagemonkey
02-24-11, 17:51
Vortex's also don't need crush washers, peel washes or rocksett. Al you do is screw it on and give a good twist. Its tines or flutes are angled so it self tightens as it fires.
Many tests have shown it to be the clear number 2 muzzle device for flash suppression after the AAC blackout.
Can you point to those tests?
Vortex's also don't need crush washers, peel washes or rocksett. Al you do is screw it on and give a good twist. Its tines or flutes are angled so it self tightens as it fires.
I always liked this.
Our film showed the Vortex to be better than the AAC using M855. We're not scientists so it was far from a perfect test. Sorry, I don't have the video to share.
The tuning fork sound won't bother you while you're shooting it. If it does, you're doing it wrong.
Can you point to those tests?
I can't point to any single one as Ive seen a number of them over the last several yrs., but maybe my pal Google can.
eta...correction time....AAC makes a non QD blackout that is indeed about half the price.
I will say that from my testing and human eyes I could not tell a difference between the AAC and the Smith when it came to flash suppression. I will say that even as close as 5' away it is hard to pick out the flash even when looking for it. From the shooter perspective it is almost non existent in comparison to just your standard A2, that does a pretty good job.
I will say however that in person, the tuning fork effect was noticeably more pronounced (louder) on the AAC than the Vortex. About twice as loud. But these judgments are with my own uncalibrated eyes and ears. :)
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 19:32
yea i have been pretty set on vortex and think i'm going to get one,..for installation all i need is,..the flash suppressor, a barrel clamp, a butane torch to head the existing flash suppressor, a wrench, and lock tight?
Leonidas24
02-24-11, 20:00
I notice they both make a ringing sound. I wonder if its because of its design lol sounds like a tuning fork.
I've smacked my Vortex a couple times going to and from the range and those are the only times I've noticed it. With earplugs in its negligible.
yea i have been pretty set on vortex and think i'm going to get one,..for installation all i need is,..the flash suppressor, a barrel clamp, a butane torch to head the existing flash suppressor, a wrench, and lock tight?
All you need is the FH itself and a 3/4" wrench for installation. Of course it obviously helps to have the barrel secured in a vise for installation; however, I don't know why you need a torch to take off the old FH and no you don't need loctite with the Vortex.
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 20:15
All you need is the FH itself and a 3/4" wrench for installation. Of course it obviously helps to have the barrel secured in a vise for installation; however, I don't know why you need a torch to take off the old FH and no you don't need loctite with the Vortex.
I was assuming the original was probably on there and the torch was to losen it up. I think my leo buddy has a co worker who has a barrel clamp, so i may be hitting him up soon.
I would never buy one for a fighting/defense gun. The tines are too long and prone to bending.
They used to be bad about blooming after a number of rounds, but you don't read too much about that any more.
They have their place, I suppose... just not on any of my guns.
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 20:37
I would never buy one for a fighting/defense gun. The tines are too long and prone to bending.
They used to be bad about blooming after a number of rounds, but you don't read too much about that any more.
They have their place, I suppose... just not on any of my guns.
Really? I haven't read anything about that, then again I didn't look. I want one for a defensive/survival purpose.
I would never buy one for a fighting/defense gun. The tines are too long and prone to bending.
They used to be bad about blooming after a number of rounds, but you don't read too much about that any more.
They have their place, I suppose... just not on any of my guns.
The blackout or vortex?
Pretty sure he's talking about the Vortex. I've heard and read similar, but haven't seen it myself. Last I recall hearing or reading about it was not long after they first came out in fact.
My vote's for the AAC, but only because I'll be getting an AAC suppressor. Otherwise I'd have no preference between the two.
-B
Odd, I have never heard of an SEI manufactured Vortex bending a tine with normal use, nor 'blooming'. SEI has sold and given countless examples in various sizes from .50BMG down to 9mm to every branch of the US armed forces and are widely used to this day. This is a recent example:
http://www.smithenterprise.com/spec/sei-50cal_rel01.pdf
I would venture to say, the tine of a blackout is longer than on a vortex. The blackout is not much more than an extension of the old Colt three prong flash hiders - 2nd model - from the early sixties. Which by the way were superior to both the A1 and A2 models in efficacy.
I don't doubt that the Vortex is probably one of if not the most counterfeited designs, so that may be the root cause the problems noted in his statement. Hell, even the Army stole the design, got sued by SEI, and lost.
Odd, I have never heard of an SEI manufactured Vortex bending a tine with normal use, nor 'blooming'. SEI has sold and given countless examples in various sizes from .50BMG down to 9mm to every branch of the US armed forces and are widely used to this day. This is a recent example:
http://www.smithenterprise.com/spec/sei-50cal_rel01.pdf
I would venture to say, the tine of a blackout is longer than on a vortex. The blackout is not much more than an extension of the old Colt three prong flash hiders - 2nd model - from the early sixties. Which by the way were superior to both the A1 and A2 models in efficacy.
I don't doubt that the Vortex is probably one of if not the most counterfeited designs, so that may be the root cause the problems noted in his statement. Hell, even the Army stole the design, got sued by SEI, and lost.
The only credit that should ever be given to Ron Smith is being smart enough to patent someone else's hard work and trademark the word Vortex.
An engineer named Tim LaFrance developed the four prong flash hider as originally seen on his M16K in 1982. It was substantially the same as the one currently sold by Young Manufacturing (http://www.youngmanufacturing.net/avactis-images/cimage_47.jpg). It in itself was a re-design of the Stoll flash hider seen on the Stg 58 in the 50's. Smith changed the angle of the slots to a six degree cant and had it patented under his girlfriends name, Sonja Sommers. He then trademarked the word Vortex and has spent the last several years suing everyone who copied his copy.
Markm is right. It is a worthless muzzle device for a military weapon. I don't give a shit how many he has given away to GI's. It's cons are far outweighed by its one pro.
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 22:32
^^ very interesting,..what are other cons minus is warping.
^^ very interesting,..what are other cons minus is warping.
Dust printing when prone.
Can't be used on an M4 with a grenade launcher (fouls the top of the launcher barrel).
The closed bottom of the compensator on current issue M16/M4 variants eliminamtes both of these issues.
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 22:50
Dust printing when prone.
Can't be used on an M4 with a grenade launcher (fouls the top of the launcher barrel).
The closed bottom of the compensator on current issue M16/M4 variants eliminamtes both of these issues.
Sorry im new to the rifle game (bought a stag carbine before i knew better). What is dust printing. Honestly I was getting it for basically a defensive/survival rifle.
So far I have 8fde window pmags 1st gen, fde magul ctr stock, hogue rubber grip, vickers sling, h2 buffer, bravo company bcg, eotech 4x magnifier, daniel defense rear plate sling adapter, vickers padded sling. looking for a good flash suppressor next.
Leonidas24
02-24-11, 22:50
Dust printing when prone.
Can't be used on an M4 with a grenade launcher (fouls the top of the launcher barrel).
The closed bottom of the compensator on current issue M16/M4 variants eliminamtes both of these issues.
Right, well when the OP gets a 203 to mount on his AR he can start worrying. For now, I think he's in the clear. It doesn't sound like he's going to be carrying a rifle and 210 rds of ammo across the Iraqi desert.
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 22:54
Right, well when the OP gets a 203 to mount on his AR he can start worrying. For now, I think he's in the clear. It doesn't sound like he's going to be carrying a rifle and 210 rds of ammo across the Iraqi desert.
lol the only time ill be doing anything close to that is if this country went into an economic collapse and had anarchy! Right now its just my first rifle to mod and take to the range.
Leonidas24
02-24-11, 22:55
lol the only time ill be doing anything close to that is if this country went into an economic collapse and had anarchy! Right now its just my first rifle to mod and take to the range.
Exactly. Buy with confidence.
from a civilian stand point, I have fired mine prone on several occasions, many times during a carbine course, and didn't have any issues.
If I were shooting in a sandbox, I can see how it would be a hindrance.
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 23:04
Exactly. Buy with confidence.
+1 to that!
from a civilian stand point, I have fired mine prone on several occasions, many times during a carbine course, and didn't have any issues.
If I were shooting in a sandbox, I can see how it would be a hindrance.
I wish I had a carbine course around here I have been wanting to shoot one. I'm about as far from sand as you can get minus living 20 minutes from the gulf coast.
Leonidas24
02-24-11, 23:08
+1 to that!
I wish I had a carbine course around here I have been wanting to shoot one. I'm about as far from sand as you can get minus living 20 minutes from the gulf coast.
And even then it's not so much sand you need to worry about; it's dust that's the problem. Moondust doesn't seem to be a problem where you're located.
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 23:10
And even then it's not so much sand you need to worry about; it's dust that's the problem. Moondust doesn't seem to be a problem where you're located.
unless you have allergies lol no
Let's keep this one from heading to Hades.
WaterChunker
02-24-11, 23:29
Let's keep this one from heading to Hades.
why would you think that?
Could someone elaborate (provide a source perhaps) on the issue with the Vortex bending/blooming?
I've heard this several times now, but no one bothers to expound on it.
I'm not trying to call anyone a liar, but we all benefit when real, significant data is brought into the discussion.
They're usually along these lines (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=751402&postcount=5). Markm has said (https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=877340&postcount=16) that he's had the prongs open up on him too (same with uscmvet later in that thread).
-B
WaterChunker
02-25-11, 00:30
hmm first i have heard of that
Right, well when the OP gets a 203 to mount on his AR he can start worrying. For now, I think he's in the clear. It doesn't sound like he's going to be carrying a rifle and 210 rds of ammo across the Iraqi desert.
Whats the point of adding a part to your weapon designed as a war fighting tool if you can only discuss it terms of commercial use? If thats the case, he doesn't need a flash hider, bayonet lug, pistol grip or sliding stock and better turn in those 30 round mags for some 5 round models...
I have had a Vortex on a M4 for about a year now. 2-3k rounds later no problem. Of course I am not running and gunning much because I am too old for that.:D
The only credit that should ever be given to Ron Smith is being smart enough to patent someone else's hard work and trademark the word Vortex.
Why is it on this forum it seems necessary to personally attack individuals? Particularly when much of what is said is supposition. I would caution you against slander, which is so freely done around here. Wouldn't it be a bit more palatable to simply state your experience and that you prefer something else?
I don't have a dog in the fight, I have no preference, but it would be interesting to have Ron Smith come on and answer to what you have presented as fact, but in reality is your opinion. I would rather you say you don't care for the guy - which is where your anger and vitriol seem to be focused - and move on. I see you are from the same neck of the woods, is there some reason for your intense dislike of SEI, Ron Smith, Sonja Sommers et. al that we don't know about?
An engineer named Tim LaFrance developed the four prong flash hider as originally seen on his M16K in 1982. It was substantially the same as the one currently sold by Young Manufacturing (http://www.youngmanufacturing.net/avactis-images/cimage_47.jpg). It in itself was a re-design of the Stoll flash hider seen on the Stg 58 in the 50's. Smith changed the angle of the slots to a six degree cant and had it patented under his girlfriends name, Sonja Sommers. He then trademarked the word Vortex and has spent the last several years suing everyone who copied his copy.
Actually, I used to be in fairly regular contact with Tim and used to buy quite a few pieces from him including several M16K's, and a regurgitated 'history' lesson is not necessary thank-you. Have you ever spoken to Tim? Curious what he would think, by what you say, LaFrance 'stole' the design from the Belgians/Germans. So now there are two “thieves” in the mix using your line of thinking. I suppose HK "stole" the "Lafrance version" for the 53 too. Holy cow, now three 'thieves"!
A current straight pronged open flash hider is and was not some “flash of genius”. It was a variation/evolution of an existing design, probably like 90% of the products out there. You really think all this stuff is new? The AAC blackout is a modified model 2 three prong flash hider. Did Bittingham steal that from ArmaLite?
You are incorrect, the prongs on a Vortex use a graduated degree of twist.
Markm is right. It is a worthless muzzle device for a military weapon. I don't give a shit how many he has given away to GI's. It's cons are far outweighed by its one pro.
Apparently you didn't read the link provided, as NSWC apparently thinks enough of the SEI Vortex to let a contract for up to 4500 units in .50BMG. I guess the Army thinks it sucks too, because they were manufacturing copies. But hey, I will defer to you, the one in the know.
You are incorrect, the prongs on a Vortex use a graduated degree of twist.
There is certainly a lot to address here. In trying to keep to the subject of the Vortex, lets start with the Patent which clearly states:
...including four equally spaced flutes angled six degrees from a centerline of the body member.
How does graduated fit in? The flutes are also described as helical which is a misnomer in my opinion but please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Here is a link to the Patent (http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=xdcjAAAAEBAJ&dq=sonja+sommers).
Why is it on this forum it seems necessary to personally attack individuals?
Whatever it is, it's very strongly related to your personal drive to state things in the most clever way possible, thus insuring that any valuable info you might have to pass is lost amidst the smarmy tone and "why isn't everybody recognizing my genius?" attitude.
Example: How the hell does Mk18 know what is or is not a part of your personal fount of historical knowledge? Or with whom you "used to be in fairly regular contact with..." (nice broad, airy metric to use in a non-verifiable statement, BTW; what's anybody gonna do, call and check?)?
IG just got through posting a general directive to dial back the invective, yet here you are, so bent on sparring that you didn't notice or read it, or are so full of yourself that you deliberately chose to ignore it.
Neither of those scenarios are really favorable for you.
I am not a firearms engineer, designer or anything else. So let me just say that I think most of us can agree that many changes, updates and accessories for firearms, in particular the AR platform are really nothing more than an evolution of ideas that are already out there.
In many cases they are changes to something that already exists as viewed through the eyes of someone else.
Let's not make crazy accusations and finger pointing about people stealing designs, etc...
From personal conversation several years ago came the graduated (5 degree to 15 degree I was told) statement I made. It could have been 6 degrees, but I thought I was told 5 degrees. Following is from the SEI website referencing the 15 degree helix:
http://www.smithenterprise.com/spec/SE-Vortex_M240.pdf
There may be more references but I did not put too much time into it.
I have used them on varous things and never have heard of the problems as describe with an SEI manufactured unit.
I am curious about the feedback on the Vortex (that a few stated where it had failed them for one reason or another) without getting into the nuances of human behavior and/or ethics. The thread was about the Vortex and its performance, not who did or didn't design it, if the design was or wasn't 'stolen', if this guy or gal is or isn't a genius, or is or isn't credible.
FishingFool
02-25-11, 15:21
http://img607.imageshack.us/i/vortex.jpg/
Around 6500 rounds this happened. Vortex replaced quickly and customer service was good about it. Which flash hiders excel to minimize dust printing?
Never have seen anything like that from normal use. Looks like it was dropped or was used to pry with. Was that one purchased from SEI? LMT has a 'warning' on their website about fake SOPMOD stocks, I wonder if some of these failed Vortex fh's are fakes. I know there was a ton of them out there.
FWIW- I had one (SEI) on my SOCOM 16 build and it worked damn good. But, I also wasn't using it in "combat" or anything else.
From personal conversation several years ago came the graduated (5 degree to 15 degree I was told) statement I made. It could have been 6 degrees, but I thought I was told 5 degrees. Following is from the SEI website referencing the 15 degree helix:
http://www.smithenterprise.com/spec/SE-Vortex_M240.pdf
There may be more references but I did not put too much time into it.
I have used them on varous things and never have heard of the problems as describe with an SEI manufactured unit.
I am curious about the feedback on the Vortex (that a few stated where it had failed them for one reason or another) without getting into the nuances of human behavior and/or ethics. The thread was about the Vortex and its performance, not who did or didn't design it, if the design was or wasn't 'stolen', if this guy or gal is or isn't a genius, or is or isn't credible.
I got the AAC non-mount blackout for my 10.5" I wanted the best flash suppression for such a short barrel and also like that the 3 big prongs are a lot thicker and less prone to bending than the thinner 4 Vortex prongs (probably not a big worry though).
I have a Vortex with nearly 10,000 rounds through it and it's taken a beating. The worst of which was probably a 220lb oaf driving it into packed gravel (might as well have been concrete) with full force and momentum behind him.
Functionally it' still like new (cosmetically not so much). Maybe I've just been lucky...
WaterChunker
02-25-11, 16:54
^^impressive. I have only put 90 rounds through my rifle, tomorrow i plan on shooting about 300 rounds through the ar and about 200 through my new gen 4 19.
alpha.kilo
02-26-11, 18:44
It looks like this has been well covered but I will put my .02 in.....
I have several Vortex FH's and a couple Blackouts mounted on my carbines. I have unscientifically tested them at dusk as well as in the dark of the desert with various ammunitons. I have found them to both perform equally great. Great products from two great companies.
They both suppress flash completely when used with high quality low flash powder/ammo.
AK
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.