View Full Version : I want a Beretta...god help me...
decodeddiesel
02-26-11, 11:32
So, here is the thing...I can't get the thought of owning an M9 out of my head. I know I know...the G19/17, M&P9, P30 are all better weapons, and I wouldn't argue that for a second. I carry an Apex'd/Warren'd M&P9C daily and I love it. I have no doubt that if I am called upon to use a weapon as a civilian to defend myself or my loved ones it will be with my M&P and I am glad about that. If I got the Beretta it would be a range toy, and a trip down memory lane for me.
Here's the thing about the Beretta, we go WAY back and I have drawn blood with this weapon. Initially I went through 19K OSUT back in '98 and guess what my primary weapon was? Yup, an M9. Spent a TON of time with one of these pistols in classrooms, on the range, even doing DnC. It was a companion and a friend while I was there at Ft. Knox. I then carried one while "securing" Denver International Airport in 2001, got to go through the El Paso County Colorado SWAT training school with one, and all around did a ton of training on this pistol....all of this finally paid off in 2003 when I actually used one to put down a threat while serving in Mosul with the 101st Airborne. Long story, but yeah like I said we go way back.
I would like a properly marked M9 for nostalgia sake, but I have the chance to get a 92FS locally at the Sportsman's Warehouse for a pretty darned good deal...
Opinions? Recommendations? Maybe someone will slap me in the head and tell me to not bother lol.
Cagemonkey
02-26-11, 11:37
I used to say the same thing. After carrying an M9 for 4 years in the Corps as a Armorer, I thought I'd never own one. I have one now and enjoy it. I think the older you get, the more sentimental you get about things.
I think you should get the 92FS. They are great weapons and it sounds like you want one. So do it!
BTW... the G19/17, M&P9, P30 aren't "better" weapons. That's some peoples opinion, it's not a fact. They are just different.
I have a TRS that I never really shoot anymore. I can't bring myself to part with it because every red-blooded American needs a 1911- it's in the rules, you can look it up.
If you have a soft spot in your heart for the M9/92, then IMO you should get it. Just be realistic about not having it as your go-to handgun.
BushmasterFanBoy
02-26-11, 11:48
Go with the properly marked M9. A 92fs isn't the same in quite a few subtle ways, so its not gonna feel like its the gun you're going for. The differences are minor (dustcover, sights, slide and frame markings, and a very slight backstrap change) but they're enough to keep a 92fs from being the gun you're feeling nostalgia for. It's a pretty cool gun to have, especially since you've got a lot of memories of it.
Since the gun has such sentimental value to you I think you should definitely get it. However, I can't comment on the 92FS vs. M9 issue.
I say get a Beretta. Some people don't like them, and its ok. Lets just say that with how higly people regard the Glocks, I am at the opposite end of that spectrum. I don't like Glocks, and much prefer the 92FS/M9 over them. My M9A1 is an awesome shooter, tight groupings, even when dumping a clip. Never got that kind of accuracy out of a Glock. Now, I am not bashing Glocks. But I don't see why there is such hatred for the Beretta. Beretta puts out a damn nice, accurate, and reliable pistol. My M9A1 is my go to gun, and always will be.
Justin
Find a 92 G. The G model feature a decocker only, the lever doesn't go into the "safe" mode. It is much preferable than the safety/decock.
You already have extensive experience with the design, so I want bother commenting on that; however, I recommend picking one up. I've sold and traded many handguns, but my 92 isn't going anywhere. It probably gets use the least these days, but I there's just something about it that keeps me from having any inclination to part with it.
I'm not a "collector," but I don't see any issue with having a gun that you just happen to like around.
Beat Trash
02-26-11, 12:44
You are familiar with the Beretta. You realize it's short comings when compared to other designs.
But you want one, just because... This is a valid reason to purchase another handgun in my opinion.
Go buy yourself a Beretta...
The only thing I did with mine was to install a "D" model trigger spring (about $1.50 from Brownells). It made a huge difference in the DA trigger pull.
I say get a Beretta. Some people don't like them, and its ok. Lets just say that with how higly people regard the Glocks, I am at the opposite end of that spectrum. I don't like Glocks, and much prefer the 92FS/M9 over them. My M9A1 is an awesome shooter, tight groupings, even when dumping a clip. Never got that kind of accuracy out of a Glock. Now, I am not bashing Glocks. But I don't see why there is such hatred for the Beretta. Beretta puts out a damn nice, accurate, and reliable pistol. My M9A1 is my go to gun, and always will be.
Justin
beretta pistols dont use clips. and i don't think you have any experience with glock.
---
M9... 92FS... your M4 is not in issue configuration, is it? i bet you don't use a single weapon or piece of gear, now, the same way you did in the Army. your thirst for nostalgia should be sated by a 92FS.
beretta pistols dont use clips. and i don't think you have any experience with glock.
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M9... 92FS... your M4 is not in issue configuration, is it? i bet you don't use a single weapon or piece of gear, now, the same way you did in the Army. your thirst for nostalgia should be sated by a 92FS.
Oh, pardon my use of street slang. Never fired a Glock before. You are right. Wow, can you tell me more about myself?
If I bought stuff based on hype, and not experience, I guess I would have a Glock 22 because thats what is commonly issued to police officers. But, having shot a couple different Glocks (17, 19, 22, and 23), I just don't like them. I don't like the feel. The Beretta's are my preference. No need to be a dick because of a slang! Have a great day!
Justin
outrider627
02-26-11, 13:27
Not every gun purchase has to be because it's the absolute most reliable firearm ever or follows some mil spec. Sometimes, having a history with a specific weapon is enough to go out and buy it. You said it yourself, it would be a trip down memory lane to own a M9/92FS. That's a good enough reason IMO.
There is no reason not to get it? Go for it and enjoy your time on the range.
I carried and taught the M9 for 15 yrs. I never owned one and I do not think it is the best for issue to the masses but my opinion is not based on any lack of reliability I ever saw. It is based on my experience teaching it and watching quite a few struggle with the overly heavy DA trigger and grip size.
For me personally, it was a great pistol and I never had a problem with any of my personally assigned M9s.
Find a 92 G. The G model feature a decocker only, the lever doesn't go into the "safe" mode. It is much preferable than the safety/decock.
Agreed. If I were looking to get into a Beretta 92, I would want the "G" model, but not exactly because it has no safety. It is, more specifically, because the decocker automatically pops back up into the "fire" position, after you push it down.
Oh, pardon my use of street slang. Never fired a Glock before. You are right. Wow, can you tell me more about myself?
If I bought stuff based on hype, and not experience, I guess I would have a Glock 22 because thats what is commonly issued to police officers. But, having shot a couple different Glocks (17, 19, 22, and 23), I just don't like them. I don't like the feel. The Beretta's are my preference. No need to be a dick because of a slang! Have a great day!
Justin
Justin, read these threads.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=70019
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54936
This year, I plan to buy a Beretta 92xx series pistol again. Hope you buy one by day's end!
My first 9mm was a Beretta M92F back in 1989. Loved it.
Very soft recoil, smooth shooting and accurate.
If you want one, hold your head high and buy one!
Pistol Shooter
02-26-11, 16:42
The Beretta 92FS is a very fine handgun, accurate and reliable.
Every collection should include one. IMO, it's also a very good value for the money.
Pick one up OP and enjoy. :)
I bought my first Beretta 92F (Italian) in 1989 and have added a few to the collection since then.
Honestly, I cannot remember ever having a failure with any of them and I've shot all kinds of fmj and jhp ammo through them.
Well, I think since you went to so much trouble to sell us the idea... you should definitely get it. :p
I have a number of guns without a specific use. You're an adult, it's OK to buy things you just want once all of your needs are taken care of. Not to mention the Beretta 92FS is a spectacular gun. It doesn't fit me quite right and it's heavy in this age of wonderguns, but so what? I have one and like it a lot!
decodeddiesel
02-26-11, 18:38
I almost bought the 92FS today, but had a change of heart at the last minute. The differences, while subtle, are there. If I buy one of these it has got to be an M9.
So, anyone know of the cheapest place online to find an M9?
I almost bought the 92FS today, but had a change of heart at the last minute. The differences, while subtle, are there. If I buy one of these it has got to be an M9.
So, anyone know of the cheapest place online to find an M9?
I went to the Beretta web site and they state the differences between commercial M9 and 92FS are:
Slide markings
Serial Number prefix
Dot and Post sights
What differences are you guys talking about?
I almost bought the 92FS today, but had a change of heart at the last minute. The differences, while subtle, are there. If I buy one of these it has got to be an M9.
So, anyone know of the cheapest place online to find an M9?
I wonder where fellow M4C member ShipWreck is? Hope he replies here.
decodeddiesel
02-26-11, 19:10
I went to the Beretta web site and they state the differences between commercial M9 and 92FS are:
Slide markings
Serial Number prefix
Dot and Post sights
What differences are you guys talking about?
Well, the polymer trigger on this 92FS was kind of a let down, as was the polymer spring guide rod. These were the main things I was a bit hesitant about.
Other than that, and I know it is silly aesthetic stuff, but the angled dust cover, undercuts on the back and front of the grip, 3 dot sights, no US Gov markings...guess if I am going to buy this gun I want an actual M9.
I went to the Beretta web site and they state the differences between commercial M9 and 92FS are:
Slide markings
Serial Number prefix
Dot and Post sights
What differences are you guys talking about?
There's a couple others..Straight dustcover vs tapered one,(no idiot warnings on M9) and the radius of the backstrap is different. The polymer trigger is'nt really solid polymer..it's a polymer coated trigger with a steel skeleton, The polymer guide rod is, from what I understand, what's issued, it has some advantages, such as being able to flex, drop a steel guide rod on a concrete floor and it's probably slightly bent, which could hang up the slide, and it (polymer) has channels in it to allow dirt, sand, etc somewhere to go. it's also not that big a deal to get a steel replacement of you want..Wolfe gunspring sells them..
There's a couple others..Straight dustcover vs tapered one,(no idiot warnings on M9) and the radius of the backstrap is different.
Well, they have a "commercial M9" listed for MSRP $650 with the above description. I looked at pictures of both and could not tell the difference between M9 and 92FS except for the grips maybe.
Also, I believe more recent M9s have gone to plastic recoil spring guide and safety/de-cocker. Not sure about the trigger.
Also not sure you can purchase a "real" military M9.
Good luck with your search.
I'd get an M9.
A few years ago, there were quite a few M9s being sold in a standard green box cover and military cardboard box. Haven't seen them for a while now, but no doubt they can be found. They sold for a few $$$ less than a standard 92FS. Beretta also released a special edition back in 1998 that included the M12 holster, mag pouch, and belt. That package sold for about $800 and as far as I have seen, the price is still about the same.
In each case these pistols came with .mil assembly and parts markings as well as lacked the "don't shoot yourself" warnings common on Beretta pistols. The only difference between them an military M9s is a different serial number series. There were also some real M9s produced back in the 1980s for Reserve/Guard component competition shooters, but they are rare and fetch a high dollar. I am assuming you want to stay away from the special commemorative models with gold inlays as well.
As this is going to be a "collector gun" I would go with a M9. The 92 shoots just as well (newer models a little better IMHO), but they are not quite M9s. I'm sure most of you know the differences, but they are primarily the rear sight(on all but the oldest 92s), dust cover (on newer 92s), backstrap (new 92s have a reduced radius), and of course markings. Plastic parts (decocker, guide rod, trigger, etc) became standard on both 92s and M9s in the early to mid 2000s. While some decry them, I have had no issues with them and actually like the guide rod better. The trigger is really just polymer coated and flexes far less than the triggers on my UPS's do. I'm not 100% sure but I would assume that the M9s sold a few years back will have some plastic parts given their production dates. The M9s sold in the late 1990s however are all metal parts.
You might try to give Jensen's up in Loveland a call, at one time (several years ago) he carried a pretty extensive line of Beretta products.
Here are a few on GunBroker - The first is the one that was available a few years back. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=216684604
The next one is the Special Edition that came out in the late 90s - http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=217354259 If you are dead set against plastic parts, this would be the one to go with and is selling for much less than they went for in 1998 (ask me how I know :( ) *
* Upon looking closely at the photos, it looks to me like the pistol has the reduced radius backstrap but the straight dust cover. This is somewhat odd and probably puts its production in the 1999 or 2000 time frame as this is the frame that the "Elites" came with. While it has proper M9 markings, I have never seen a military M9 with this frame. Since it is local for you, it might be worth a look.
The 92/M9 is approaching classic status. While I think that in terms of absolute durability and user friendliness it's be a bit surpassed by, say, a Glock 17/HKP30 (to name two), it's still a very viable and exceptionally reliable weapon it its own right. Just make sure that you lube it and swap out the recoil, trigger, and slidelock springs every 5K.
While I'm more likely to carry one of my Glocks, my 1996-vintage 92D is going nowhere-and it's one of my favorite nightstand guns.
Best, Jon
Rosco Benson
02-27-11, 07:44
The 92 benefits from having its mainspring swapped for a stock 1911 mainspring. This will lighten the DA pull, but still smack the primers hard enough for reliable ignition. I've even used reduced-power 19-pound 1911 mainsprings and have had no issues with light strikes.
It's a big pistol with a long trigger reach, so check how it fits you before you buy.
Rosco
Cagemonkey
02-27-11, 11:38
One just showed up on this forums equipment exchange. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75089
decodeddiesel
02-27-11, 11:47
Guys listen, I do appreciate the replies but please actually read the thread and especially the first post.
Aside from the extensive experience I have with the pistol I used to be an armorer and later a company master gunner.
decodeddiesel
02-27-11, 11:50
One just showed up on this forums equipment exchange. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75089
Thanks for the heads up! Unfortunately I think that guy is not really being realistic about his pricing or expectations for what the pistol is worth seeing how many online resellers offer brand new M9s at or less than his asking price (with free shipping).
Cagemonkey
02-27-11, 11:54
Thanks for the heads up! Unfortunately I think that guy is not really being realistic about his pricing or expectations for what the pistol is worth seeing how many online resellers offer brand new M9s at or less than his asking price (with free shipping).
No problem, good luck on your search.
Nothing wrong with a Beretta! I have a 92 Inox and a 92 that has been NP3'd. I'd jump at the chance to buy a 92 Inox Italian made with flat dust cover or maybe a vertec in excellent condition...or maybe even a type-M carry model...damn, now you got me thinking!
Anyway happy shopping!
Thanks for the heads up! Unfortunately I think that guy is not really being realistic about his pricing or expectations for what the pistol is worth seeing how many online resellers offer brand new M9s at or less than his asking price (with free shipping).
$550 is a little 'diculous, when you consider Buds has 'em brand new on the website for $568 with free shipping, and is selling one or some on gunbroker for $549 + $25 shipping.
decodeddiesel
02-28-11, 08:35
$550 is a little 'diculous, when you consider Buds has 'em brand new on the website for $568 with free shipping, and is selling one or some on gunbroker for $549 + $25 shipping.
Glad someone else thinks so. If it were priced at $450 the guy would have a USPS MO on the way already.
Still keeping my eyes open for a good deal on an M9...new or lightly used.
Ya know ya want one...
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/bbossman1/IMAG0067.jpg
lethal dose
03-01-11, 22:55
Find a 92 G. The G model feature a decocker only, the lever doesn't go into the "safe" mode. It is much preferable than the safety/decock.
There ya go. I love berettas. Mine have been great guns and are probably some of the most enjoyable pistols to shoot.
Seriously, where are the pics?, Using one in the military and in personal life i do not think twice about owning/carrying one. you know the weapon, you know its capabilities, etc. nothing wrong with a M9. especially after all the experience you have had with one.
prior to owning a Glock i was Beretta 92fs person. i have seen the light with a Glock, but i will always know a Beretta better and trust it more so because of training use than anything anyone has to say about them.
I want PICSSSSSSSSSSS!,
on a side note i do still remember the serial number on mine from 10 years ago that i have not owned since.
decodeddiesel
03-02-11, 01:44
Must resist P30 LEM...MUST....RESIST....MUST...NOT...GIVE IN...:fie:
But the grip is so much better, and the gun is more appropriately sized for a 9mm, and Heinie makes "8" style sights for it, and I could actually CCW it, and I have always wanted one from the first day I held one in 2008....damn lol.
God it's tough when all of your friends, and especially your girl, all tell you to get the HK and stuff the Beretta lol. Still though a German piece of plastic will never replace the spot I have in my heart for that Italian beauty...
Well I guess if it's sentimental.:p
However there's better choices, especially in the military!
Yes, I took these pics myself.
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5527/berettabroke00029vg.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/2571/berettabroke00015qw.jpg
My beretta is the only gun I regret selling. The P30 I recently sold I don't think I will ever miss. The LEM trigger system is awesome but the gun was not for me.
My old beretta has been the single most accurate handgun I have ever owned. In the future I plan to but another 92 of some sort (the 92A1 is looking pretty good) and I also want a 92 compact.
Must resist P30 LEM...MUST....RESIST....MUST...NOT...GIVE IN...:fie:
But the grip is so much better, and the gun is more appropriately sized for a 9mm, and Heinie makes "8" style sights for it, and I could actually CCW it, and I have always wanted one from the first day I held one in 2008....damn lol.
God it's tough when all of your friends, and especially your girl, all tell you to get the HK and stuff the Beretta lol. Still though a German piece of plastic will never replace the spot I have in my heart for that Italian beauty...
I believe that you are correct about the changes to the M9. At least the ones I saw recently in A'stan.
Well, they have a "commercial M9" listed for MSRP $650 with the above description. I looked at pictures of both and could not tell the difference between M9 and 92FS except for the grips maybe.
Also, I believe more recent M9s have gone to plastic recoil spring guide and safety/de-cocker. Not sure about the trigger.
Also not sure you can purchase a "real" military M9.
Good luck with your search.
I don't have experience with the P30, but I do have a P2000...it's far superior the M9 IMO (but I think you already knew that).
That being said, if you want an M9 for your collection, get it! Hell, I have guns in my collection that I would never use for anything but fun...you could do a lot worse than the M9 (again, I know you know that already).
I have a decent amout of experience with it, I shoot it pretty well despite it's huge grip, terrible, long trigger pull and general non-ergonomical design. Shot a 38X out of 400 on the range last time I went (USMC). Good gun, I probably won't ever get one...but you never know, if I find a good enough price I might be tempted just to have one in the collection.
Must resist P30 LEM...MUST....RESIST....MUST...NOT...GIVE IN...:fie:
But the grip is so much better, and the gun is more appropriately sized for a 9mm, and Heinie makes "8" style sights for it, and I could actually CCW it, and I have always wanted one from the first day I held one in 2008....damn lol.
God it's tough when all of your friends, and especially your girl, all tell you to get the HK and stuff the Beretta lol. Still though a German piece of plastic will never replace the spot I have in my heart for that Italian beauty...Go ahead, get both of them. If you decide that you dont like or need one, then I would gladly take either one off your hands for you:D;)
Well I guess if it's sentimental.:p
However there's better choices, especially in the military!
Yes, I took these pics myself.
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5527/berettabroke00029vg.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/2571/berettabroke00015qw.jpg
So what does that indicate? Was the pistol properly maintained?
In many years of teaching/inspecting/repairing the M9 I never saw a slide break like that.
Thanks
Cagemonkey
03-02-11, 08:58
Well I guess if it's sentimental.:p
However there's better choices, especially in the military!
Yes, I took these pics myself.
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5527/berettabroke00029vg.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/2571/berettabroke00015qw.jpgNice pics. I hope the slide catch mod worked as designed. When I was in the Corps in 89-93, we had to keep round counts and replace the slides every 1000 rounds until the pistols received the slide catch modifications. Never saw a slide separation first hand. The slide separation problem was attributed to the metallurgy of the American made guns and not a design flaw. Shooting SMG ammo and high round counts probably didn't help either. I'm glad my Beretta 92FS is an Italian made gun and has been proofed.
the G19/17, M&P9, P30 aren't "better" weapons. That's some peoples opinion, it's not a fact. They are just different.
So we're going to play the semantics game in a technical forum? Seriously?!
Longer service life over Beretta: Check.
More reliable in dirty environments over Beretta: Check.
Less maintenance intensive than the Beretta: Check.
More intuitive and manipulable safety than Beretta: Check.
Fully ambidextrous (except for the 17/19 - the Beretta is not): Check.
What does the Beretta have over the others? A better trigger (and that's completely subjective to the user). And that's about it.
If you're one of the people who define better as "a shorter-lived pistol, that's less reliable in dirty environments, requires more routine maintenance, has a hard-to-reach safety that is commonly activated under recoil, and is not fully ambidextrous," then yeah, the others aren't "better." For the other 99.9% of us who don't make $600 decisions based solely on trigger performance, the other pistols are clearly "better" choices.
I'm not knocking Beretta's, they just are what they are. The OP has a clear idea of what a Beretta is and he's fine with that. Trying to play the "they're all special" card is stupid. Berettas were great during their time. Now, there are more robust, stronger, more reliable options and big .mil has been trying to replace them for some time.
To the OP: Go for it. The first pistol I ever wanted was a 92FS Inox. The more and more that I use and learn firearms, the more I realize that I sometimes just want what I want, regardless of its strengths or weaknesses. The most important part of it all is knowledge and preparation. You know what to look for in a handgun and you have a reliable weapon to fall back on should you ever need it, so you're covered there. I'd say buy it, shoot the crap out of it, and don't look back.
Well, they have a "commercial M9" listed for MSRP $650 with the above description. I looked at pictures of both and could not tell the difference between M9 and 92FS except for the grips maybe.
Also, I believe more recent M9s have gone to plastic recoil spring guide and safety/de-cocker. Not sure about the trigger.
Also not sure you can purchase a "real" military M9.
Good luck with your search.
My understanding is the Military M9 and the Commercial M9 both share the same polymer coated metal parts; trigger, magazine catch and de-cocker. The guide rod and mainspring cap/lanyard loop are all polymer.
I don't know what magazines are shipped with the Military M9, but my Commercial M9 I bought late 2010 came with 2 Italian Beretta magazine with alloy base pads.
Here is what is under some of the polymer coated parts...
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/bbossman1/IMAG0004.jpg
IZinterrogator
03-02-11, 10:30
One of those M9 Special Editions that came with the belt and holster and all the other crap was the first gun I ever bought. I would recommend if you want one that's properly marked that you get one of those. They have the all-metal parts vs. the polymer coated ones which give you some more options for certain upgrades. Mine has one of the Wolff INS reduced power trigger springs which you can't install on the polymer coated trigger and it gives an excellent trigger pull and reliability when coupled with the D model mainspring and a 15 lb. recoil spring.
I started doing competitive shooting last year with a 1911 and I got tired of having my butt handed to me on the pistol stages because I had to reload twice for every one reload by the Glock 9mm guys. I couldn't get a Glock 17 at the time because my local Glock law enforcement dealer was backordered on them and I wasn't going to pay $150 more and get one less magazine, so I decided to pull my Beretta out and use it. I already had all the holsters and magazine carriers I would need for it to shoot the match, so I went ahead and used it in my next match. I've been using it ever since then and even though I have low-crawled through the desert sand and dust, dragging my holster and magazines through it as I went filling it with sand and grit, it has functioned reliably 100% of the time. I did go ahead and get the Glock 17 later, but since I was doing so well with the Beretta, I stuck with the M9 and have relegated the Glock to range toy and new shooter intro to various types of handguns.
Longer service life over Beretta: Check.
More reliable in dirty environments over Beretta: Check.
Less maintenance intensive than the Beretta: Check.
Please show me the .mil tests that show the M&P, or the P30 for that matter, to out perform the Beretta in these areas. Independent testing, using them in "shooting classes" and LE agency testing doesn't count.
What does the Beretta have over the others? A better trigger (and that's completely subjective to the user). And that's about it.
That's your opinion.
If you're one of the people who define better as "a shorter-lived pistol, that's less reliable in dirty environments, requires more routine maintenance, has a hard-to-reach safety that is commonly activated under recoil, and is not fully ambidextrous," then yeah, the others aren't "better." For the other 99.9% of us who don't make $600 decisions based solely on trigger performance, the other pistols are clearly "better" choices.
Again, that's your opinion. From the experience that I have had with the pistols mentioned, I would take a 92FS for work any day over the M&P. I personally don't have enough time around a P30 to say either way.
I'm not knocking Beretta's, they just are what they are. The OP has a clear idea of what a Beretta is and he's fine with that. Trying to play the "they're all special" card is stupid. Berettas were great during their time. Now, there are more robust, stronger, more reliable options and big .mil has been trying to replace them for some time.
Did I miss a big pistol trial to replace the Beretta? Why did the .mil just order 500K more of them a year or two ago if they're trying to replace them?
John_Wayne777
03-02-11, 13:05
Did I miss a big pistol trial to replace the Beretta? Why did the .mil just order 500K more of them a year or two ago if they're trying to replace them?
There have been attempts at pistol contracts from the DOD...things like the JCP...but none of them have gone anywhere. It's unlikely that a new pistol contract will show up anytime in the near future for a number of reasons:
- The military doesn't really care about pistols
- New pistol trials would probably be a bigger pain in the rump than the M9 trials were, and those were no fun.
- The groups within the military who care most about sidearms generally already have access to other means of procuring what they want.
- Switching to an entirely new pistol requires training, certifications, and a load of other expenses and logistical concerns that won't fly in this environment.
- For all intents and purposes, the M9 does the job asked of it.
I don't see the DOD going through another pistol program anytime in the near future. I would guess that the DOD will be plenty happy to just keep buying M9's on an as-needed basis, and that Beretta will be happy to keep making them for the DOD.
decodeddiesel
03-02-11, 13:13
One of those M9 Special Editions that came with the belt and holster and all the other crap was the first gun I ever bought. I would recommend if you want one that's properly marked that you get one of those. They have the all-metal parts vs. the polymer coated ones which give you some more options for certain upgrades. Mine has one of the Wolff INS reduced power trigger springs which you can't install on the polymer coated trigger and it gives an excellent trigger pull and reliability when coupled with the D model mainspring and a 15 lb. recoil spring.
I started doing competitive shooting last year with a 1911 and I got tired of having my butt handed to me on the pistol stages because I had to reload twice for every one reload by the Glock 9mm guys. I couldn't get a Glock 17 at the time because my local Glock law enforcement dealer was backordered on them and I wasn't going to pay $150 more and get one less magazine, so I decided to pull my Beretta out and use it. I already had all the holsters and magazine carriers I would need for it to shoot the match, so I went ahead and used it in my next match. I've been using it ever since then and even though I have low-crawled through the desert sand and dust, dragging my holster and magazines through it as I went filling it with sand and grit, it has functioned reliably 100% of the time. I did go ahead and get the Glock 17 later, but since I was doing so well with the Beretta, I stuck with the M9 and have relegated the Glock to range toy and new shooter intro to various types of handguns.
That is damn impressive. I have been looking into the Wolff Trigger spring modification as well as the D mainspring.
I just wish there were some good sight options for the M9.
has a hard-to-reach safety that is commonly activated under recoil,
Really? Never seen this...have you?
Really? Never seen this...have you?
Yes. I actually have. I'm not sure if it was in need of maintenance or not, but it was on a worn 92FS at my local range. At the time, I was looking at purchasing a 92 myself and looked up the issue and found a decent many others online who reported it as well.
IZinterrogator
03-02-11, 15:35
That is damn impressive. I have been looking into the Wolff Trigger spring modification as well as the D mainspring.
I just wish there were some good sight options for the M9.I don't have a trigger pull gauge, but the combo of the reduced power Wolff unit and the D mainspring get the trigger down to about 3.5-4 pounds in SA and 8-9 pounds in DA. Military guys that compete with me who are used to the standard M9 mock my choice of handgun until I let them try the trigger. :D
Totally with you on the sights, though. I wish the slide was dovetailed front and back like the Brigadier models so I could replace the standard sights with 10-8 sights or something along those lines.
Yes. I actually have. I'm not sure if it was in need of maintenance or not, but it was on a worn 92FS at my local range. At the time, I was looking at purchasing a 92 myself and looked up the issue and found a decent many others online who reported it as well.
Yeah that's one of the inspection items. I have only seen it when the slide was released forward, the weapon would go to fire. I have not heard of it going to "safe" under recoil.
Alaskapopo
03-02-11, 15:57
I say get a Beretta. Some people don't like them, and its ok. Lets just say that with how higly people regard the Glocks, I am at the opposite end of that spectrum. I don't like Glocks, and much prefer the 92FS/M9 over them. My M9A1 is an awesome shooter, tight groupings, even when dumping a clip. Never got that kind of accuracy out of a Glock. Now, I am not bashing Glocks. But I don't see why there is such hatred for the Beretta. Beretta puts out a damn nice, accurate, and reliable pistol. My M9A1 is my go to gun, and always will be.
Justin
Beretta pistols are ok but they don't use clips they use magazines.
Pat
Navymid2011
03-02-11, 16:13
Glad to hear something besides the standard "Beretta-bashing" going on here...
Only thing is that I must have monster hands because I've *never* had a problem with the M9 safety, and I've shot a bunch of them. Navy M9's and my own 92FS.
I simply use the same motion as my 1911 thumb safety. A downward sweeping motion of the thumb while pressing inward on the safety lever will actually kick the lever forward and up to the fire position. Have you guys ever tried that?
Putting the weapon back on safe is a little trickier, but again, I find it very do-able even with only one hand on the weapon.
I think it's a great weapon. 100% reliable when maintained (many military weapons are not), accurate, great grip that fills my hand. Wouldn't hesitate to buy one.
IZinterrogator
03-02-11, 16:29
I just point the tip of my thumb up while doing the same forward and then down motion I would use if I was using a 1911. Safety comes off every time and my thumb is in position for a proper firing grip.
There have been attempts at pistol contracts from the DOD...things like the JCP...but none of them have gone anywhere. It's unlikely that a new pistol contract will show up anytime in the near future for a number of reasons:
- The military doesn't really care about pistols
- New pistol trials would probably be a bigger pain in the rump than the M9 trials were, and those were no fun.
- The groups within the military who care most about sidearms generally already have access to other means of procuring what they want.
- Switching to an entirely new pistol requires training, certifications, and a load of other expenses and logistical concerns that won't fly in this environment.
- For all intents and purposes, the M9 does the job asked of it.
I don't see the DOD going through another pistol program anytime in the near future. I would guess that the DOD will be plenty happy to just keep buying M9's on an as-needed basis, and that Beretta will be happy to keep making them for the DOD.
Yeah, I know of the JCP concept. IIRC, it was at first a SOCOM only deal and when the big Army got ahold of it, it went away.
As you said, the M9 is going to be around for quite a while.
There have been attempts at pistol contracts from the DOD...things like the JCP...but none of them have gone anywhere. It's unlikely that a new pistol contract will show up anytime in the near future for a number of reasons:
- The military doesn't really care about pistols
- New pistol trials would probably be a bigger pain in the rump than the M9 trials were, and those were no fun.
- The groups within the military who care most about sidearms generally already have access to other means of procuring what they want.
- Switching to an entirely new pistol requires training, certifications, and a load of other expenses and logistical concerns that won't fly in this environment.
- For all intents and purposes, the M9 does the job asked of it.
I don't see the DOD going through another pistol program anytime in the near future. I would guess that the DOD will be plenty happy to just keep buying M9's on an as-needed basis, and that Beretta will be happy to keep making them for the DOD.
They're still looking for a replacement under MHS. They're currently drafting the new trial requirements and it should be underway end of 2011 / start of 2012.
So what does that indicate? Was the pistol properly maintained?
In many years of teaching/inspecting/repairing the M9 I never saw a slide break like that.
Thanks Me either, I have seen glocks come apart, 1911's blow up, revolvers tie up but have never seen a Beretta go down. I have large hands and carried a 92D for 7 years as a Federal Officer. I would take my old 92D back over this SIG 229 DAK I have to carry now just because I trusted that old Beretta to go Bang every time I pulled the trigger. I havent reached that level of trust yet with the SIG and dont know if I ever will. I am also a Beretta and SIG certified armorer and have maintained our department issued weapons for 6 years. I have already had to perform more repairs on the SIG's than I did in the 5+ years I was maintaining the Beretta's and we have only had the SIG's for 6 months.
variablebinary
03-03-11, 04:30
Generally, I like the M9, but I don't think it is a good military weapon. Our unit is about 50/50 M9 and M11.
The M11's have proven to be much better tools over time, while the Beretta's are so-so.
Generally, I like the M9, but I don't think it is a good military weapon. Our unit is about 50/50 M9 and M11.
The M11's have proven to be much better tools over time, while the Beretta's are so-so.
How so? What issues have you seen?
Me either, I have seen glocks come apart, 1911's blow up, revolvers tie up but have never seen a Beretta go down. I have large hands and carried a 92D for 7 years as a Federal Officer. I would take my old 92D back over this SIG 229 DAK I have to carry now just because I trusted that old Beretta to go Bang every time I pulled the trigger. I havent reached that level of trust yet with the SIG and dont know if I ever will. I am also a Beretta and SIG certified armorer and have maintained our department issued weapons for 6 years. I have already had to perform more repairs on the SIG's than I did in the 5+ years I was maintaining the Beretta's and we have only had the SIG's for 6 months.
I have seen M9's break, just never saw a slide break in half like the picture. The ones that needed repair most were the training weapons due to their high round count. I saw very few issued guns break over the years...they are generally carried a lot and rarely fired except during qualifications. I believe good operator preventive maintenance and inspection habits go a long way in decreasing problems.
from my understanding of the breaks, like the one showed were more due to use of +p rounds and poor maintenance? I may be wrong on this though.
I just point the tip of my thumb up while doing the same forward and then down motion I would use if I was using a 1911. Safety comes off every time and my thumb is in position for a proper firing grip.
Right! Same method I use, I carry it safety "on". I do have largish hands. More of a training issue for me. I use the slide catch to release the slide. The new 92A1 has dovetail sights front and rear. Fine weapon, get one if you like it.
Grumpy MSG
03-03-11, 09:17
I am not going to tell you all the reasons to buy, or not to buy an M9. You are an adult, if you want an M9 you don't have to justify the purchase to anyone, except a spouse. It sounds like you want an M9 and a big part of it is the memories, I own one of the commercial M9s and have no complaints in comparing it to the military version. The only difference I have noticed between mine and the Army's was the grip screws are Allen on mine and most of the M9s in the units I was a part of, had slotted screw heads. I did see a few with the Allen screws though. Most 92FSs come with 3 dot sights, the commercial M9s have the same dot and post as the military's M9s.
To make your quest easier though here is a photo of the end of the box that it came in.https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7622&stc=1&d=1299164981
Pistol Shooter
03-03-11, 10:36
I have seen M9's break, just never saw a slide break in half like the picture. The ones that needed repair most were the training weapons due to their high round count. I saw very few issued guns break over the years...they are generally carried a lot and rarely fired except during qualifications. I believe good operator preventive maintenance and inspection habits go a long way in decreasing problems.
It looks to me like that slide might have been put in a vise for some reason and had too much pressure applied to it. :confused:
variablebinary
03-03-11, 19:27
How so? What issues have you seen?
Generally unreliability in field conditions to the extent that I've seen M9's needing two soldiers to get the action open. They just weren't as resistant to dirt and gunk as the M11
Wow! What stopped them from unlocking?
variablebinary
03-03-11, 20:10
Wow! What stopped them from unlocking?
I don't know, but it wasn't just one M9. All the issues started after sand was added to the equation.
I don't know, but it wasn't just one M9. All the issues started after sand was added to the equation.
My guess would be sand build up in the locking recesses of the slide freezing the locking block in place and poorly maintained pistols. I'm suprised that the M11's work better, In my experience with the SIG's they seem to be a more fragile piece of equipment than the Beretta and less forgiving of poor maintenance. Tighter chambers, poor spring quality.
So what does that indicate? Was the pistol properly maintained?
In many years of teaching/inspecting/repairing the M9 I never saw a slide break like that.
Thanks
It indicates that there IS a weak thin spot in the slide right where the cuts are. Top that off with locking block failures and you have two weak links other pistols don't have.
If you like them that's great, to me, frankly they should have never been used in our military and have a trigger reset that could put you to sleep!
Cagemonkey
03-03-11, 22:31
It indicates that there IS a weak thin spot in the slide right where the cuts are. Top that off with locking block failures and you have two weak links other pistols don't have.
If you like them that's great, to me, frankly they should have never been used in our military and have a trigger reset that could put you to sleep!You should check out the Walther P38. This type of slide failure is due to metallurgy and not design.
GTO,
Like I said in my other post regarding the picture. What is the history of this gun and the slide break? Was it regularly inspected and maintained?
By the way, I don't believe I said they were my favorite handgun either, I just gave my opinion based on my experience with them.
It's a poor design, anyone that's been around has seen this before Pre USA included. I'm sure you can Google it. (and read all the excuses.)
Spring or not it's a full size 9mm. Less slide mass do to another stupid design butter thin spots in the slide and a weak locking block. What more could one ask for a "battle pistol"? :o Oh yes, detail stripping in the field in low light. :laugh:
As for my pic, regular use, ammo, maintenance. I'm sure changing the recoil spring every 5 minutes would have helped. (zing!)
Sorry, the B word and their "service"? left a bad taste in my mouth, I won't post on it anymore and spoil you thread.
maddawg5777
03-04-11, 03:30
I'm a firm believer in the beretta. I've carried it twice in the sand box and never had an issue, even when i was performing a "tactical" manuver using a busted haji bike and had sand poor out the the barrel. But I guess that's what happens when you maintain your side arm. I recently purchased a 92a1 and love it. It's my daily carry atm. Being an armorer out of the 120 pistols my unit has, only one has had a breakage which was a trigger spring. Not bad for issued weapons that are about 12 years old.
Also as some one else mentioned the newer m9's are coming with the polymer guide rods and 3 dot sights. My coworkers in the desert had the newer ones and i was surprised to see them come in this config.
variablebinary
03-04-11, 06:41
I am very curious about the 92A1. If I were getting a full size pistol tomorrow, that is what I would buy
http://www.thegunfever.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/B/R/BRJ9A9F11_1.jpg
VB,
I don't know...they got rid of the hooked trigger guard, don't know if I could live without that. :sarcastic:
GTO,
You're right I could probably find catastrophic failures of just about any weapon on the internet and post it here but without knowinig the circumstances, it wouldn't tell us much. By the way, since you brought it up, what handgun would be your pick the the military?
Thanks
Get the M9!
I had a 92FS years ago and had to get rid of it for personal and financial reasons. Miss it to this day. Would like to pickup another one down the road but right now to me there are other handguns I would like first.
I am very curious about the 92A1. If I were getting a full size pistol tomorrow, that is what I would buy
http://www.thegunfever.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/B/R/BRJ9A9F11_1.jpg
I will say that this is one of my first 92 variants. Awesome gun!
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/92a1-9000.jpg
maddawg5777
03-04-11, 13:29
Heres mine, sry for crappy cell pic.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2mfgrnp.jpg
Variablebinary, the 92a1 is a mixbetwen the 90-two series and the regular 92fs. The frames is that of the 90-two but the went with the more traditonal styling on the slide and also went back to the regulard grips instead of the polymer of the dash model. The only real diffrences is the "recoil buffer" inside the frame, which is more designed for the 40 cal, dovetail front sight, rounded trigger gaurd (which i prefer) and of course the acessory rail.
Mine is sitting at only 400 rounds (first range trip), I put a variety of fmj, hp and frangible stuff I had left over from a swat class I attended. It digested everything with out a hiccup and I couldnt get it to malf for the life of me.(shot upside down, sideways and limp wristed). Now mine just needs the elite II hammer and a D spring.
This is now my favorite pistol. I really tried to love glock, mp and xd (just dont fit me right and I like hammer fired guns ... I know Im wierd )but i just dont get the warm fuzzy I get with this plus I have indepth knowledge and traning with this firearm
You mean you actually learned to efficiently operate that safety?
Seriously though there is something to be said for sticking with a weapon you are familiar with.
It indicates that there IS a weak thin spot in the slide right where the cuts are. Top that off with locking block failures and you have two weak links other pistols don't have.
If you like them that's great, to me, frankly they should have never been used in our military and have a trigger reset that could put you to sleep!
The trigger reset is no better or worse than any other DA/SA handgun I've used.
The trigger reset is no better or worse than any other DA/SA handgun I've used.
I would say better than any other DA/SA handgun I've used. Much shorter than the Sig and stock Smith&Wesson and honestly, just about the same as my HK LEM. The relatively short reset is one of the things I really like about the 92s trigger. You got to work for that first shot, but after that, it is easy.
Just a comment on the 92A1 safety/de-cocker: Massad Ayoob has commented in more than one writing that a pistol with a safety can save the life of the person using it. He also has commented that, as a practical matter, a person who regularly uses one can be as efficient as one who doesn't. He reports no negatives for the use of a safety.
This isn't an argument, and I certainly have no credentials to make one on this subject - it's just an observation.
That said, having shot Glocks, SIGs and Berettas - they all seemed to be good guns, and on paper, the SIG P226 E2 was just what I wanted - after actually shooting them, I found that I shot better (more accurately) and with greater comfort with the 92 Beretta than with any other pistol - again, not that I'm any authority or have any special cred. It's just what I experienced. As a result of that experience and the reports of Ayoob, I'll be buying the 92A1 and practicing disengaging the safety until it's second nature.
-
P.S. My hands are smallish, and the 92 grip feels large. It seems to force my grip into the best position for shooting - anyway, the rsults seem to bear than out.
Have you considered carrying it with the safety off?
arcticlightfighter
03-04-11, 23:31
Beretta 92FS - One of my favorite pistols. I find it overly large for a 9mm, sharp edges that tear up my hands during a length range session and an overly long trigger reset. All these issues aside, I had never had a FTF/FTE issue and it was boringly reliable and accurate.
Ill second the sentiments of carrying with the safety off. Like the SIG P series, decock and holster was my manual of arms when I carried a nice INOX 92FS.
Ready to fire upon drawing from the hoslter. Ive seen a coworker who had inadvertedly activated the safety on his 92FS draw and pull the trigger, fortunately we were on the range for quals but the look was priceless.
Although I have carried striker fired pistols for some time now (8 years), I really have an affinity for the Beretta 92FS. If I could get my hands on a "G" model, that would be ideal for me.
I have large hands so the Beretta feels good and I overcome the trigger reset and safety issues with training.
As stated earlier, if you want one, get one. There are worse choices.
variablebinary
03-05-11, 07:07
I would say better than any other DA/SA handgun I've used. Much shorter than the Sig and stock Smith&Wesson and honestly, just about the same as my HK LEM. The relatively short reset is one of the things I really like about the 92s trigger. You got to work for that first shot, but after that, it is easy.
Agree, the single action on the Beretta is one of the best on any DA/SA pistol. The reset is dramatically shorter than standard SIG's, and HK's of any type.
Though the SIG 226 E2 reset smokes everybody. Now that is how a DA/SA reset should be on all guns.
Agree, the single action on the Beretta is one of the best on any DA/SA pistol. The reset is dramatically shorter than standard SIG's, and HK's of any type.
Though the SIG 226 E2 reset smokes everybody. Now that is how a DA/SA reset should be on all guns.
I agree. The SRT is the best DA/SA trigger available. One thing that I have noticed though, you should have the SRT on all of them, or non at all. If you go from an SRT gun to a normal reset, you end up short stroking the trigger, or at least I do anyway.
I found this on Bud's today.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=75449
Not the M9, But I think you will like it.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=218910981
:sarcastic:
John
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