20" MWS range report. Update pg2: Getting better

[m1ajunkie]

I recieved my upper back from lmt this week with a new 20" SS barrel. My first one was replaced due to some tooling marks in the barrel that were out of the ordinary. I must say I am extremely pleased with lmt's customer service.

On to the good stuff. I got out to zero my scope and test my handloads for further development tues.

Here is a pic of my groups from 100yds, I'll explain further down.
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1940.jpg

Pic of the rifle to show the setup:
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1939.jpg

I accidentally deleted the original pic so I only have the fgmm group now.

FGMM 175 gr- Shot very well. I got a velocity of 2573 fps which I am pleased with and thats where I want to get my handloads to. Excluding the two fliers to the right of the pic, the group is exactly 1".

Xm118lr pd- not sure what went on here. The horizantal spread of the main group is about 1.25" but then there are two fliers low.

Next are my handloads.

WCC brass
varget powder
175gr smk at 2.8-2.804"
Winchester primer

42gr- Turned out my first nice group with handloads of the day. I got these at 2502fps which actually is a hair slower than the group I shot with 41.5gr of powder, but I am pleased with the group minus the flier. The four rounds in the orange are exactly 3/4".

43gr- This is where I want to be. Velocity is 2566, which is very close to the fgmm and should be super sonic at 1k if I ever got to shoot that far. The 4 in the orange are just under an inch but the flier opens it up a good bit.

I feel like this barrel has potential, if the shooter can get practiced up to shoot that good.

However, does anyone have any advice for the fliers? On my handloads I am thinking of adding a slight crimp in case the first round is chambering differently than the rest and causing the issue. I don't understand the factory loads though, I'm guessing they were me.

ETA: I was shooting prone off the bipod up front and a rear sandbag. It was a little difficult because the sun was at 12 o clock and I needed a sunshade that I neglected to bring.

I know the five round groups are frowned upon, but I am using them as a test of my handloads. I'm going to the 300yd range tuesday to really test em out and see if I can eliminate the fliers.

Update:

I made it back to the range today to get some testing with more loads. Wasn't able to get to the 300yd line due to rennovations so I decided 100yd would be good enough.

First off, I didn't have an issue with my mws but rather my harris bipod. I use this bipod on both my precision rifles.

First group of the day was from my 5.56 sdm, exactly 1" for 10 rounds. Then I moved on to the lmt.

First group was my handloads at 43grs that grouped nicely. 7 shots went into about 3/4", but then a fliers were at 12, 2 and 5 o clock about an inch out. I thought that to be very odd. I fired a second group of my handloads that ended up being about 2" with the majority of the group being in a line about 1" to the right of aim about 2" tall, Getting wierder. Next up I decided to try ten rounds of fgmm 168's. The first 5 rounds ended up about 2" high in a line that was 2" horizantal. At this point I decide something is wrong, and quit firing.

I had set the zero stop in my NF after the first group, I thought that could be an issue so I backed it off. Then fired 10 rounds of xm118lr pd, which ended up having 7 shots being 2-4" and then the other three of the target (these were the top right target). Not the zero stop. At this point I thought something was loose and checked screws in the barrel, scope mount and removed and replaced the larue mount. Then fired 5 rounds of privi 175gr match. POI was close but the group was 2". During this group I found what I think was the issue.

My harris bipod basically fell apart on the fifth round. The screw that the left leg pivots around backed out and the nut fell off. I feel like this whole time my bipod was loose and caused these bad groups. I didn't have the tools to fix it so I packed up and headed home.

Does it sound plausible that the issue with my bipod could have caused these issues? I'm shooting off the bipod and a rear bag and loading the bipod pretty heavily. The shots felt really good, but then I'd see impacts way off poa. I feel the bipod was causing the fliers mentioned in the previous post.

I ended up wasting several rounds of good ammo, but I did get to chrono the loads, and was pleased with those results.

Pics:

Group one of the day with the sdm:
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1944.jpg

One of the groups with the mws when the issue showed up. I'm not sure which ammo this was, I was taping holes hoping I would fix the problem and get some nice groups so I don't have any more pics.
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1945.jpg

Bipod:
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1947.jpg

[Anchor Zero Six]

Saw this on the Hide as well, figured I post too much there so I'll post it here lol.

With my 16" Cl barrel I easily atained .5 MOA consistantly with this load;

Win brass
45gr Var
175 smk
BR-2 primer
2.1355 ogive

Avg 2560 FPS (16")

Load was origin tailored for my AI but it seems to work great in just about everything I have run it through. No sighns of overpressure in the gas guns. Loaded on a Dillon 550 progressive.

I'm using the same load for my now 13.5" and I'm getting 2410 fps, only able to get a few 5rnd groups in before the sun went down but they were right at 1". Eager to try again when I can see the dang target, expecting .75 or better.

Anyways FWIW may want to try a few more grains of powder.

Cheers
A06

[strambo]

I used to get fliers like that. In my case, I traced it back to about 1 out of 4 or 5 bullets being seated about 5-7 thousandths off center with the rest being under 3 thousandths. I wasn't squaring up my bullet seating die properly.

Once I fixed that, all rounds (checked by RCBS casemaster) are under 3 thousandths and most are w/in 1.5 thousandths of perfectly centered.

[Anchor Zero Six]

Just noticed you are getting 2566 with 43 gr...thats interesting.

I think it should be noted that my chrono data was at 360ft elevation 50 degree temp. Guessing you are a bit higher elevation tham me lol.

[lj_1187]

Nice! I look forward to hearing more reports on the 18 and 20" SS barrels. Seems like there were a LOT of hype which so many people wanting one. Then they came out and you never heard anything lol. Thanks for the pics. I may be ordering the same barrel soon. What do you think after shooting the SS barrel compared to your stock CL barrel?

[m1ajunkie]

Just noticed you are getting 2566 with 43 gr...thats interesting.

I think it should be noted that my chrono data was at 360ft elevation 50 degree temp. Guessing you are a bit higher elevation tham me lol.

I am at about 2000ft elevation. The 2566fps suprised me as well. I'm not showing any pressure signs and could work up higher, but for the time being I would just like to copy the FGMM.

What I don't understand is the fliers, I haven't thought about the concentricity of my rounds, but I get the fliers in both .223 and .308.

Here is a pic of the groups shot with my .223 SDM ar, take a look at the top right and bottom left groups. The other two targets were groups I shot while experimenting with seating depth so they are a variation of the good loads that didn't do so great. The bottom left group is well under an inch if you remove the 3 fliers, and the top right is exactly an inch if you remover the lowest 2 rounds.

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1941.jpg

I am measuring each powder charge and trickling up to the desired amount. I would be really excited about my groups if it weren't for my fliers. I'm also not ruling out the shooter, todays conditons weren't perfect so those shots could have been me.

[Belmont31R]

Saw this on the Hide as well, figured I post too much there so I'll post it here lol.

With my 16" Cl barrel I easily atained .5 MOA consistantly with this load;

Win brass
45gr Var
175 smk
BR-2 primer
2.1355 ogive

Avg 2560 FPS (16")

Load was origin tailored for my AI but it seems to work great in just about everything I have run it through. No sighns of overpressure in the gas guns. Loaded on a Dillon 550 progressive.

I'm using the same load for my now 13.5" and I'm getting 2410 fps, only able to get a few 5rnd groups in before the sun went down but they were right at 1". Eager to try again when I can see the dang target, expecting .75 or better.

Anyways FWIW may want to try a few more grains of powder.

Cheers
A06



You're judging the accuracy off single 5 round groups?

[VooDoo6Actual]

Thanks for the report.

[JeepDriver]

Thanks for the review.

I was checking out a 20" barrel at a local FFL last week. I wish LMT would sell complete uppers so I could leave an optic mounted. I guess I'm going to need another complete MWS instead .

[Anchor Zero Six]

You're judging the accuracy off single 5 round groups?


No I'm judging accuracy off several 5 round groups. My 2 cents groups larger than 5 rounds fired at a reasonable cadence is more a demonstration of the properties of heat expantion on metal and the flaws of the shooter. Hell people (myself included) throw flyers on 5 shot groups let alone 10 rnds.

IMO group shots are for establishing the inherent baseline accuracy of the equipment (rifle, round and zero). They have their place in determining the amount of deviation in the system but do little to show one way or the other the abilities of the sytem and driver working together.

Sorry I'm not sure if that was a remark about if I only got those results in an isolated instance (not the case) or if it was directed at the merits of 5round 100yd groups.

[Anchor Zero Six]

Thanks for the review.

I was checking out a 20" barrel at a local FFL last week. I wish LMT would sell complete uppers so I could leave an optic mounted. I guess I'm going to need another complete MWS instead .

LOL in the age of very repeatable QD mounts and quick change barrel systems like the MWS the only POSSIBLE solution would be another rifle. Going to use this argument on the fiance to get another rifle ;)

[ALCOAR]

No I'm judging accuracy off several 5 round groups. My 2 cents groups larger than 5 rounds fired at a reasonable cadence is more a demonstration of the properties of heat expantion on metal and the flaws of the shooter. Hell people (myself included) throw flyers on 5 shot groups let alone 10 rnds.

IMO group shots are for establishing the inherent baseline accuracy of the equipment (rifle, round and zero). They have their place in determining the amount of deviation in the system but do little to show one way or the other the abilities of the sytem and driver working together.

Sorry I'm not sure if that was a remark about if I only got those results in an isolated instance (not the case) or if it was directed at the merits of 5round 100yd groups.

Firstly, great to see LMT got you squared away m1a, after all everyone makes mistakes, it's how we handle them that sets us apart.

For your first real recorded day at the range, I would say you did a great job. It's a great deal tougher to drive a precision .308 vs. a precision 5.56. There is most certainly a new learning curve associated with the .308 even if you own several precision 5.56 guns.

The following is not based on the review or the groups above but rather the legitimacy in what Belmont's reply had to say....and then what Anchor followed with. I would have to strongly disagree w. your assessment of judging a shooter..a rifle..and the combo in regards to groups. I won't re-hash this again as it comes up already enough with so many 3 and 5 rd. groups these days, but nothing can be interpreted from such small and insignificant sample sizes such as the ole 3 and 5 rd. groups. So with all do respect, doing it that way honestly yields no useful information in determining a shooter's ability and a said rifle's accuracy. Your quitting the group right when the metal meets the road and thereby the precision/accuracy can start to be evaluated.

[m1ajunkie]

No I'm judging accuracy off several 5 round groups. My 2 cents groups larger than 5 rounds fired at a reasonable cadence is more a demonstration of the properties of heat expantion on metal and the flaws of the shooter. Hell people (myself included) throw flyers on 5 shot groups let alone 10 rnds.

IMO group shots are for establishing the inherent baseline accuracy of the equipment (rifle, round and zero). They have their place in determining the amount of deviation in the system but do little to show one way or the other the abilities of the sytem and driver working together.

Sorry I'm not sure if that was a remark about if I only got those results in an isolated instance (not the case) or if it was directed at the merits of 5round 100yd groups.

Anchor, you are right.

Shooting a 10 round group non stop is hard for me to do and I think it shows in my groupings. I'm not sure what it is, but something just makes me feel fatigued about round 6 or 7. After that I'm not able to shoot the last couple rounds as focused as the first ones. I'm thinking that may be what causes the fliers in my 10 round groups.

I will say, 10 round groups are the way to go. Before I got into precision rifles, I only shot 5 round groups and could occasionally get 1" groups at 100yds, but a 1" 10 round group is tough for me.

[Belmont31R]

No I'm judging accuracy off several 5 round groups. My 2 cents groups larger than 5 rounds fired at a reasonable cadence is more a demonstration of the properties of heat expantion on metal and the flaws of the shooter. Hell people (myself included) throw flyers on 5 shot groups let alone 10 rnds.

IMO group shots are for establishing the inherent baseline accuracy of the equipment (rifle, round and zero). They have their place in determining the amount of deviation in the system but do little to show one way or the other the abilities of the sytem and driver working together.

Sorry I'm not sure if that was a remark about if I only got those results in an isolated instance (not the case) or if it was directed at the merits of 5round 100yd groups.


I don't believe your chrome lined MWS is shooting, on average, .5MOA or less consistently even with 5 round groups. If so you are shooting significantly smaller groups than every other MWS owner with the 16" CL'd barrel has claimed to date, and its a gun Ive kept up on seeing as I owned one and it continues to interest me to a good degree. If you can really shoot .5MOA groups one after the other then you have the most accurate MWS with the 16" CL'd barrel in existence.

[Belmont31R]

Anchor, you are right.

Shooting a 10 round group non stop is hard for me to do and I think it shows in my groupings. I'm not sure what it is, but something just makes me feel fatigued about round 6 or 7. After that I'm not able to shoot the last couple rounds as focused as the first ones. I'm thinking that may be what causes the fliers in my 10 round groups.

I will say, 10 round groups are the way to go. Before I got into precision rifles, I only shot 5 round groups and could occasionally get 1" groups at 100yds, but a 1" 10 round group is tough for me.



Thats the point. A lot of guns can occasionally group a single 5 round group into less than an inch. What really matters, and is a much better indicator, is 10 round groups averaged out and hopefully with a few kinds of ammo. That is how I judge my guns accuracy so if I claim 1.5MOA that is with several 10rd groups with several types of ammo. I could easily shoot a few 5 round groups over a period of months, post photos of them online, and claim the gun is .5MOA or .75 MOA even though thats less than half my average. If people were more realistic about their shooting and guns capability we wouldn't get so many people online who claim extraordinary shooting ability when its simply not true. There was a guy on here last year who claimed under MOA groups with a rack grade bushmaster at 200 yards. He may have done it once, a 3 round group, and then claimed the guns accuracy.


Ive posted up tons of my targets Ive shot...some good and some not very flattering but its an honest and realistic look at accuracy.

[Dave L.]

I shot a friend's CL'ed MWS with 175gr. FGMM and my best group was .74" at a hundred (It was only a 3 shot group, but I was impressed enough to put it on my to-buy list).

I'm not going to throw the BS flag for hearing .5" 10-round groups are shot at a hundred(with hand loads) but I'm interested in seeing the details.

[ALCOAR]

Just look below how easy it would be for me or whomever to call themselves and their said rifle a sub 1/2 moa shooter/rifle...look I even provided two 5 rd. groups.....


Now look at the next set of groups consisting of 10rds(the ones that count)...


All those groups were shot within a 20-30 min period using the same test vehicle(MRP Recce/Rock 16" SS) and the groups on the right are Vmax 55gr, ones on left are TAP T2.

It comes down to just being honest with yourself, sure I'd love to stop at 5 but once you see the real honest evaluation that takes place using 10rd. groups and multiple ones normally, you cannot go back anyway.

It stings the ass when people every single second on the internet especially throw out the whole sub moa line knowing damn well 99% of those sub moa groups were determined by only 3rds. I totally dismiss the whole sub moa line these days until I see the proof given just how many people taut their 3-5rd. groups.

[Anchor Zero Six]

Not wanting to hijack the thread so I'm going to start a new one. Sorry OP for the derail.

[m1ajunkie]

Updated op with today's bipod issues

[Eddiesketti]

That sucks about the bipod. Will you be going back out to see if the bipod was loose the whole time? I would be curious to see where you are when everything is in order.

[ALCOAR]

I think it's just inconsistency in your shooting technique that is causing you to "muscle" the gun to get on target and stay on target. When shooting prone, the technique and the consistency of it from shot to shot is huge.

"Muscling" your rifle could have lead to you over loading your bipod as well.

[m1ajunkie]

That sucks about the bipod. Will you be going back out to see if the bipod was loose the whole time? I would be curious to see where you are when everything is in order.

I got it fixed tonight, and I'm planning to get back to the range either thursday or saturday. Then I would like to actually make it to 300yds on next tues. I am going to shoot it with the bipod and if it still has issues I'll have to put sandbags up front.

If I could get all my as good as the groups I shoot if you subtract the fliers, I would be really happy with the rifle. You can tell it has potential if I can get everything in order.

[Eddiesketti]

Does the weapon cycle better with the rifle length gas tube as opposed to the carbine length?

[Belmont31R]

Get an Atlas. Seriously...



Ive used Harris bi-pods for a long time and they are worth what you pay for them. A good bi-pod will cost much more.




As to the issue causing the bad groups....I don't know about that. Anytime I do accuracy or load testing I shoot of a rest and bags. Bi-pods can open up groups even when loading them. Its best to eliminate the bi-pod negatives when doing that type of testing.

[m1ajunkie]

Trident- Thats a good point about muscling the rifle on to target. I spent about an hour or so today dryfiring from the postition I will be shooting from tomorrow. If I quit thinking about npoa, I do end up "muscling" rifle. As far as loading the bipod, how much is to much? The way I am doing it currently give me a really solid position, especially with a rear bag. This is what gave me the theory about the bipod causing my issues. I was thinking the looseness in the leg allowed the rifle to "wobble" just as the shot broke and the recoil started. Several times I got wierd recoil impulses where the left leg came off the ground an inch or two. This is just prior to it failing.

Eddieskettie- I honestly haven't paid any attention to the difference in function of the rifle. I have noticed recoil is a hair "smoother", but other than that all else seems normal.

Belmont- I have heard good things about the atlas but I've never looked into them because I thought my harris was good to go. I am planning to shoot tomorrow with and with out the bipod to see if it makes a difference.

[Eddiesketti]

Good to know. Awaiting range update.

[Spooky130]

OP - How do you like the ACS stock for shooting prone and off rests?

Spooky

[m1ajunkie]

OP - How do you like the ACS stock for shooting prone and off rests?

Spooky

I really like the acs. The protected latch is very handy for shooting from prone and off the bench when using a rear bag. When I had the lmt sopmod, I was constantly afraid I was going to collapse the stock under recoil and get an eyeful of scope. One plus I like about the acs is the stock itself is a hair longer than the sopmod. When I had the sopmod, I would occasionally have my head slide forward and then back rearward over the lip at the front of the sopmod on the buffer tube. That wasn't comfortable, but the acs I stay on the stock itself always.

I find the acs to be more comfortable to shoot from than my a2 stock on my .223 ar. I would recomend this stock if you are planning to use this as a precision rifle with a rear sandbag for support. I am actually tempted to swap the a2 stock on my .223 ar over to an acs.

[m1ajunkie]

I got back to the range, and I'm much more pleased today with my results. I believe the bipod was leading to some wierd stuff the other day that I didn't get today.

First ten rounds of the day. This is my 175gr handload, measured right at 2570fps. After this group I adjusted up 1 moa and left 1/4moa. Still got two fliers, but I feel like my fliers today were all my fault, I have nothing else to blame but me today. :mad: 8 of ten shots went into exactly an inch.

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1948.jpg

I was feeling good after that and decided to try 10 more. Basically the same results, 8 of 10 were just a hair under an inch, then two fliers.

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1949.jpg

Then I started to develop a load using the 178gr amax and varget in lc lr brass. I found that 43gr gave me a respectable group to start with. Next week I'll load up some more of these and shoot some 10 round groups. Measured 2525fps, and is just a hair over an inch.

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1951.jpg

Then I decided to shoot 10 more 175gr smk's to see where I'm at. I believe at this point in the day I was becoming fatigued and it shows in my group. Pretty big.

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1950.jpg

After that I shot 10 round of 147gr win q3130 to get some more brass and the results were unbelievable bad. Most shots missed the target because I didn't think they would shoot as high as they did.

Needless to say I am much more excited about next tuesday now. I'm planning to go back with my 175gr load, my 178gr load and shoot to 300yds. Planning to do lots of dryfiring this weekend as well. Due to most of my fliers being to the left or right, I feel they were due to my jerking of the trigger and not to my loads. From most of the groups I feel the loads I am using have potential to shoot really well.

[ALCOAR]

If you notice how your groups opened up as you progressed through your shooting session they opened up til eventually you were off the paper. This tells me that you are really sapping your energy both physically and mentally....you can almost get away with muscling the rifle on that first group w. only two flyers...once you muscle that rifle for 3-4 more groups you start to hit 5-6 flyers per group......then your mental factor kicks in and at that point all is about lost. Technique, technique, technique...that is so critical when shooting prone supported. Your getting there and practice will cure it all in my opinion. It's not easy or every one would be doing it, I never shoot prone supported next to cavemen:cool:

[m1ajunkie]

If you notice how your groups opened up as you progressed through your shooting session they opened up til eventually you were off the paper. This tells me that you are really sapping your energy both physically and mentally....you can almost get away with muscling the rifle on that first group w. only two flyers...once you muscle that rifle for 3-4 more groups you start to hit 5-6 flyers per group......then your mental factor kicks in and at that point all is about lost. Technique, technique, technique...that is so critical when shooting prone supported. Your getting there and practice will cure it all in my opinion. It's not easy or every one would be doing it, I never shoot prone supported next to cavemen:cool:

You are right about becoming physically/mentally drained. Today I was really trying to focus more on being consistant and I feel I saw some improvement.

Just to be clear, I wasn't shooting off the paper with the 175gr loads I set my zero for. It is when I went the 147gr win stuff that ended up shooting about 3moa higher than the 175's. I was shooting the top circle and that's what got me off paper.

I certainly see why everyone says shooting a .308 ar is harder than a .223 ar. After 40-50 rounds it seems I give out as the shooter.

ETA: Is a gieselle ssa small pin trigger a drop in part? Is there a special .308 version I need or will the regular one be good to go in the mws. After shooting my .223 ar with ssa next to the mws, I feel the mws could have a little better trigger. You can tell it is a hair heavier with a little creep prior to breaking.