View Full Version : Talk me out of going to a smith
philipeggo
02-26-11, 14:13
So i decided to sell my bushy a while back and venture into the world of building a better gun than the one i had. Frankly i feel i bit off more than i can chew. My lower is here and im waiting on my upper,stock,and LPK to arrive. Frankly this looks like a mess of screws ,buttons and springs. Not to mention i have no punches or armorers vice or any of that such that i probably need. i think i have a mallet and a screwdriver, maybe a few wrenches. It seems like every hand guard needs their own proprietary torque-hex-lock-nut-wrench-thing and ill be damned if i know what a butt-stock spanner wrench is (i know what it is im just making a point) . Problem two is most of these quality tools cost money which i admittedly didn't add into my build costs. At this point im thinking it'd be easier and safer to take it to a local smith that i trust and have him turn this pile of parts into a gun. its not like im totally inexperienced with fire arm parts but my glocks and sigs are a far cry from an ar15. Am i overreacting or should i just take it to a smarter more equipped person than i? :(
I work from home and I am in meetings all day. While in those meetings I put a stripped lower together at the same time except for the roll pins for the trigger guard and the bolt catch. If you just do a search here you will find plenty of advice on how to best handle the roll pins.
What upper did you get and what handguard/rail did you order?
from the top of my head, the minimum tools needed to get away with are:
Flat head screw driver for the grip
Bolt Catch Punch (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26484/Product/BOLT_CATCH_PIN_PUNCH)
A mallet (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9697/Product/GUNSMITH_S_RAWHIDE_MALLET)
A stock wrench (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=16882/Product/AR_15_M4_STOCK_WRENCH)
pliers
are you assembling the upper or is that coming complete?
philipeggo
02-26-11, 15:37
I work from home and I am in meetings all day. While in those meetings I put a stripped lower together at the same time except for the roll pins for the trigger guard and the bolt catch. If you just do a search here you will find plenty of advice on how to best handle the roll pins.
What upper did you get and what handguard/rail did you order?
from the top of my head, the minimum tools needed to get away with are:
Flat head screw driver for the grip
Bolt Catch Punch (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26484/Product/BOLT_CATCH_PIN_PUNCH)
A mallet (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9697/Product/GUNSMITH_S_RAWHIDE_MALLET)
A stock wrench (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=16882/Product/AR_15_M4_STOCK_WRENCH)
pliers
are you assembling the upper or is that coming complete?
My upper is coming complete minus the BCG and charging handle , i ordered it from Accurate Armory , Im Going to go with the troy trx but in the mean time until i save up for it i might just throw some standard hand guards on there.
Would you mind sharing the details of the upper you bought from Accurate Armory?
From what I can see you probably paid too much. Their standard M4 upper receiver is 120.00 which is considerably more than a BCM upper. If you are thinking about installing a Troy TRX you are going to need more than tools. It requires removal of the FSB, gas tube and barrel nut. Unless you have all the RIGHT TOOLS and knowledge you shouldn't attempt it.
My upper is coming complete minus the BCG and charging handle , i ordered it from Accurate Armory , Im Going to go with the troy trx but in the mean time until i save up for it i might just throw some standard hand guards on there.
You might see if there is someone close to you that can assist you. I'd be willing to bet I've got over $1000.00 in my AR tool box/parts box alone over the years.
There are also many DVD's and books that give you step by step directions. When I started building I was surprised that my carbine even worked! I played with it and built another, and another, and several more to the point that I prefer and trust my own builds to any manufacturers.
The real investment is not the tools but taking the time to educate yourself and do the preparation. Make a plan. Read all you can. Learn the tricks to make it easier on you.
Not all gun guys care anything about building them. I like doing it and have helped many friends, co workers, and friends of friends put theirs together. That should be your first effort before paying someone 2-3 hours labor for an hour job. That way you learn much more about the workings of your rifle at the same time and learn whether or not you want to invest the time and effort to build your own.
The Brownell's videos are good. Watch them and see what is involved. If you have a good mechanical sense, you can do this. You just need to decide if the tool cost is worth it for you.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11004/learn/
philipeggo
02-26-11, 20:04
Would you mind sharing the details of the upper you bought from Accurate Armory?
From what I can see you probably paid too much. Their standard M4 upper receiver is 120.00 which is considerably more than a BCM upper. If you are thinking about installing a Troy TRX you are going to need more than tools. It requires removal of the FSB, gas tube and barrel nut. Unless you have all the RIGHT TOOLS and knowledge you shouldn't attempt it.
No problem , Its a 16" carbine length gas system . YHM front sight gas block , no bolt carrier because i didnt want one (buying a BCM or a failzero) . Keith from AA was excellent to deal with and the price was comparable/not that much more than BCM. Before i went to AA i called spikes since they are local but neither the message i left nor the email i sent was returned so i went with AA. Yea I figured as much thankfully my local class 3 is a good guy and said he'd do it for a few bucks. I do however plan on sitting in and watching just so i can see whats involved.
philipeggo
02-26-11, 20:13
You might see if there is someone close to you that can assist you. I'd be willing to bet I've got over $1000.00 in my AR tool box/parts box alone over the years.
There are also many DVD's and books that give you step by step directions. When I started building I was surprised that my carbine even worked! I played with it and built another, and another, and several more to the point that I prefer and trust my own builds to any manufacturers.
The real investment is not the tools but taking the time to educate yourself and do the preparation. Make a plan. Read all you can. Learn the tricks to make it easier on you.
Not all gun guys care anything about building them. I like doing it and have helped many friends, co workers, and friends of friends put theirs together. That should be your first effort before paying someone 2-3 hours labor for an hour job. That way you learn much more about the workings of your rifle at the same time and learn whether or not you want to invest the time and effort to build your own.
Thanks for the advice , that would be great. I do know a few friends that could probably help me out so i should prob ask them first, truth be told i think im just psyching myself out. I can follow directions well enough and im not a total mechanical failure. But i am conscious of the fact that this is my first build and that a mistake could be at best a pain to fix and a worst very costly. I think midway USA has a free online series dedicated to the platform that would answer most of my questions. It just seems very daunting at first , kinda like my first trip to a strip club.
philipeggo
02-26-11, 20:22
oh and in case anyone was wondering im bitching about cost because i had to pay a $143 seatbelt ticket. that was my money for tools and what not. Wear your seat belts boys and girls.
BigBuckeye
02-26-11, 21:52
I built my first lower with a pair of channel locks while lying in bed watching how to videos on YouTube.....it is not nearly as hard as it looks..
Who makes the barrel? Why did you select this option instead of a BCM or even DD?
No problem , Its a 16" carbine length gas system . YHM front sight gas block , no bolt carrier because i didnt want one (buying a BCM or a failzero) . Keith from AA was excellent to deal with and the price was comparable/not that much more than BCM. Before i went to AA i called spikes since they are local but neither the message i left nor the email i sent was returned so i went with AA. Yea I figured as much thankfully my local class 3 is a good guy and said he'd do it for a few bucks. I do however plan on sitting in and watching just so i can see whats involved.
I'll dispute that. Especially having seen and read the kinds of issues people have had on this site and other places.
I built my first lower with a pair of channel locks while lying in bed watching how to videos on YouTube.....it is not nearly as hard as it looks..
Hey!
My two cents is as follows: If you're seriously questioning this issue, then maybe you'd better find someone that can do it for you. I respect that you're not so egotistical that you'd go and try something you're not sure of, maybe messing something up in the process, THEN asking for help. WTG!
Evil Bert pointed out the tools that you'd need to assemble the lower. It's pretty straightforward for the most part, but the challenging areas are the trigger guard roll pin (make sure everything's supported - you don't want to break a tab off), the front takedown pin spring and detent (be careful or that bastard will fly across the room never to be found again), and the bolt catch roll pin (you don't want to mar the side of your lower).
In addition to what Evil Bert suggested, you'd want a set of regular drift punches too.
These tools are a good investment, as no doubt the AR bug has bitten you and this won't be the last AR you put together.
Iraqgunz pointed out that you may need to remove the front sight block, gas tube, and barrel nut. This is a little more advanced smithing. For that you'll need an armorer's wrench, receiver vise block and insert (this kit includes the bolt catch punch that Evil Bert was talking about):
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=41214/avs%7CManufacturer_1=BROWNELLS/Product/AR_15_M16_CRITICAL_TOOL_KIT
plus Brownells Front Sight Bench Block (not mandatory but it makes life waaaay easier):
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=20727/Product/AR_15_FRONT_SIGHT_BENCH_BLOCK
and you're going to be needing a very solidly mounted vise.
IG cautioned you about if you don't have the right tools and knowledge you shouldn't attempt it. He's 110% right on that. Please keep that in mind :)
philipeggo
02-26-11, 22:13
Who makes the barrel? Why did you select this option instead of a BCM or even DD?
I believe all their barrels are sourced from DD. Thats a good question and one i dont have a great answer to. I heard good things, talked to the owner,looked at the specs and jumped.AA had everything i needed and were great to deal with. Like i said spikes was my first choice since they are local but they never got back to me so i went a different route.
philipeggo
02-26-11, 22:20
Hey!
My two cents is as follows: If you're seriously questioning this issue, then maybe you'd better find someone that can do it for you. I respect that you're not so egotistical that you'd go and try something you're not sure of, maybe messing something up in the process, THEN asking for help. WTG!
Evil Bert pointed out the tools that you'd need to assemble the lower. It's pretty straightforward for the most part, but the challenging areas are the trigger guard roll pin (make sure everything's supported - you don't want to break a tab off), the front takedown pin spring and detent (be careful or that bastard will fly across the room never to be found again), and the bolt catch roll pin (you don't want to mar the side of your lower).
In addition to what Evil Bert suggested, you'd want a set of regular drift punches too.
These tools are a good investment, as no doubt the AR bug has bitten you and this won't be the last AR you put together.
Iraqgunz pointed out that you may need to remove the front sight block, gas tube, and barrel nut. This is a little more advanced smithing. For that you'll need an armorer's wrench, receiver vise block and insert (this kit includes the bolt catch punch that Evil Bert was talking about):
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=41214/avs%7CManufacturer_1=BROWNELLS/Product/AR_15_M16_CRITICAL_TOOL_KIT
plus Brownells Front Sight Bench Block (not mandatory but it makes life waaaay easier):
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=20727/Product/AR_15_FRONT_SIGHT_BENCH_BLOCK
and you're going to be needing a very solidly mounted vise.
IG cautioned you about if you don't have the right tools and knowledge you shouldn't attempt it. He's 110% right on that. Please keep that in mind :)
Thanks for the support, I think i will invest in a good set of tools because as you pointed out the bug has bitten me and i have an extra lower just sitting there staring at me. It says "Please register me as an SBR and give me a 11.5in barrel" and who am i to deny my lower this simple pleasure. The other problem is my lack of space. vices and what not require a work area that i dont have but thankfully my local class 3 is a good guy who doesn't rape me with prices so he volunteered his services.
Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to tear you down. Just trying to make sense of the purchase since you aren't 100% sure about all their parts and you claimed it was slightly more costly then a BCM.
Is there a reason why you didn't get a complete BCM upper?
I believe all their barrels are sourced from DD. Thats a good question and one i dont have a great answer to. I heard good things, talked to the owner,looked at the specs and jumped.AA had everything i needed and were great to deal with. Like i said spikes was my first choice since they are local but they never got back to me so i went a different route.
I don't know how tight space is, but Harbor Freight has a couple of work benches worth looking into- http://www.harborfreight.com/garage-shop/workbench.html
I bought the 60" Hardwood Workbench with 4 Drawers which fit in our apartment and is surprisingly sturdy. I used the clamp to hold a barrel vise to install Fal barrel. Unfortunately, I had to leave it behind when we moved from the east coast to the west. I do plan to get another
philipeggo
02-26-11, 22:34
Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to tear you down. Just trying to make sense of the purchase since you aren't 100% sure about all their parts and you claimed it was slightly more costly then a BCM.
Is there a reason why you didn't get a complete BCM upper?
None other than im a support the little guy type of person , as long as they produce good stuff of course. Of which i have every indication that they do. I know your not so no worries. Keith (the owner) was great to work with and i have no qualms abut buying from him again.
philipeggo
02-26-11, 22:36
I don't know how tight space is, but Harbor Freight has a couple of work benches worth looking into- http://www.harborfreight.com/garage-shop/workbench.html
I bought the 60" Hardwood Workbench with 4 Drawers which fit in our apartment and is surprisingly sturdy. I used the clamp to hold a barrel vise to install Fal barrel. Unfortunately, I had to leave it behind when we moved from the east coast to the west. I do plan to get another
People actually buy stuff from there? J/K i get the catalog all the time i just never ordered from there. Im moving (hopefully) soon so i dont want to buy one now and then find out i don't have space for it later. damn you small ,but cheap college apts! but i will keep it in mind, if i have a patio/porch where im going that prob wouldn't be a bad idea.
I found these youtube videos from M4C member "Surf" to be helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAQKaDb80H4
As far as assembling the lower, IMO you should watch some of the videos on YouTube and you can see what tools are being used, and I'm sure seeing one be assembled would help you decide if it's something you could tackle on your own or not.
As far as the upper goes, you might be better off having someone else take care of that.
Now it makes perfect sense. Got it.
None other than im a support the little guy type of person , as long as they produce good stuff of course. Of which i have every indication that they do. I know your not so no worries. Keith (the owner) was great to work with and i have no qualms abut buying from him again.
Where are you at? Odds are there is someone here on the board close by that would be willing to help you out with tools, advice, and looking over your shoulder to make sure everything goes smoothly.
So i decided to sell my bushy a while back and venture into the world of building a better gun than the one i had. Frankly i feel i bit off more than i can chew. My lower is here and im waiting on my upper,stock,and LPK to arrive. Frankly this looks like a mess of screws ,buttons and springs. Not to mention i have no punches or armorers vice or any of that such that i probably need. i think i have a mallet and a screwdriver, maybe a few wrenches. It seems like every hand guard needs their own proprietary torque-hex-lock-nut-wrench-thing and ill be damned if i know what a butt-stock spanner wrench is (i know what it is im just making a point) . Problem two is most of these quality tools cost money which i admittedly didn't add into my build costs. At this point im thinking it'd be easier and safer to take it to a local smith that i trust and have him turn this pile of parts into a gun. its not like im totally inexperienced with fire arm parts but my glocks and sigs are a far cry from an ar15. Am i overreacting or should i just take it to a smarter more equipped person than i? :(
Well, only you can tell what your limits are. We can't answer that for you. What I will say is all the knowledge you need is right there at your keyboard. Search out the steps and tools needed. Take your time. In the end you will have a sense of achievement a store brought AR can't give you. Just saying.
I think you can do it, but you should invest in the proper tools. I found this guy's youtube page a few days ago. He breaks it down and makes it look simple.
http://ultimatereloader.com/2010/11/13/ar-mpr-ar-15-project-kick-off/
philipeggo
02-27-11, 10:38
Where are you at? Odds are there is someone here on the board close by that would be willing to help you out with tools, advice, and looking over your shoulder to make sure everything goes smoothly.
Im in south florida, palm beach county to be exact, that would be great! i posted in the regional training section so ill see if anyone gets back to me.
philipeggo
02-27-11, 10:45
Well, only you can tell what your limits are. We can't answer that for you. What I will say is all the knowledge you need is right there at your keyboard. Search out the steps and tools needed. Take your time. In the end you will have a sense of achievement a store brought AR can't give you. Just saying.
Ive come to the same conclusion, and i would love to build my own. if for no other reason just for the knowledge that i can do it again if needed/or just if i wanted to, i do have an extra lower after all. Ill look/ask around see if a local member wouldnt mind helping me out as well, the knowledge of a wiser person would be invaluable.
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