AR Proffciency/Shooting

[TXBob]

Got my brand new build and I did the unthinkable, I went to the range.

If I have a standard issue "cheap" AR-15:
Bushy Lower and parts circa 1998 (yes I know)
Spikes 16 Upper/A2 Flash.
BCM M4 Stock/Heavy Buffer (Staked it myself).
Aimpoint Micro
DD1.5 BUIS/Fixed FSP.
1/3 cowitness.
Bitteroot Valley 64gr JSP. (I needed some cheap ammo that wasn't FMJ, love the range rules locally).

Shooting seated at the range off sandbags with a Aimpoint Micro, I could keep my shots (20) in a 6 inch diameter circle at 50 yards. (Basically the area under the red dot). I realize this is not not sub MOA, but I also know I don't have a precision rifle. What level of skill do I need to work towards for this setup? (I may replace the bushmaster trigger, its pretty stiff).

2 inch groups, 4 inch groups? I know I'm not the best rifleman, or even a good rifleman, I'm a starter rifleman with a motivation to get better.

What is considered a good skill level for this setup. Eventually of course I'll start running around in 3-gun and carbine matches which adds another factor. But until then I'm focused on what I have.

Surprisingly the optic required almost no adjustment out of the box. I may be a click or two low, but for now its fairly centered.

[arizonaranchman]

Assuming you're using sandbags and proper breathing for benchrest shooting, you should be able to get 2"-3" groups at 50 yds with that set up with good ammo.

1) Try dialing the red dot DOWN to as fine a pinpoint as you can.

2) Put a 1" round white/yellow or whatever bright color sticker you can right in the center of the bullseye. This will let you focus on a smaller aiming point than just trying to stick the red dot in the center of a 4" or 6" dia black circle.

"Aim small, hit small" is what you're doing here. The small white or bright color dot and the tiny red dot setting should help you tighten things up a bit.

[AMMOTECH]

I've got a Bushy lower from that same time frame and have had no issues with it. I did swap out the LPK for one from Daniel defense.
I don't see a need for you to change out your trigger unless you will do most of your shooting over the bench looking for tight groups. A standard trigger will do just fine in an M4 style set-up.
If you are hard set on getting a better trigger pull I've been told that the units from Geissele are top notch.

I think "arizonaranchman" is spot on with his take on your shooting.

Have you ever shot an AR type rifle before? Any training (military, school, ect..)


I only use a rest to check the zero then do the rest of my shooting standing, prone, weak hand, ect...

Here is a group from my BCM @ 25M over the bench with my range bag as a rest.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/AMMOTECH/STA72786.jpg

EDIT: Point of aim was the red dot; zero is @ 50 yards.
.

[Redhat]

Off the bench I would think an 1.5 inch or better would be do-able. What size is your dot? Did you shoot with irons also?

[mizer67]

Got my brand new build and I did the unthinkable, I went to the range.

If I have a standard issue "cheap" AR-15:
Bushy Lower and parts circa 1998 (yes I know)
Spikes 16 Upper/A2 Flash.
BCM M4 Stock/Heavy Buffer (Staked it myself).
Aimpoint Micro
DD1.5 BUIS/Fixed FSP.
1/3 cowitness.
Bitteroot Valley 64gr JSP. (I needed some cheap ammo that wasn't FMJ, love the range rules locally).

Shooting seated at the range off sandbags with a Aimpoint Micro, I could keep my shots (20) in a 6 inch diameter circle at 50 yards. (Basically the area under the red dot). I realize this is not not sub MOA, but I also know I don't have a precision rifle. What level of skill do I need to work towards for this setup? (I may replace the bushmaster trigger, its pretty stiff).

2 inch groups, 4 inch groups? I know I'm not the best rifleman, or even a good rifleman, I'm a starter rifleman with a motivation to get better.

What is considered a good skill level for this setup. Eventually of course I'll start running around in 3-gun and carbine matches which adds another factor. But until then I'm focused on what I have.

Surprisingly the optic required almost no adjustment out of the box. I may be a click or two low, but for now its fairly centered.

Depends.

Benched, with that setup and crap ammo, you'd be doing well to keep 30 rounds in a 4" circle, like an NRA 50 yard smallbore target at 100 yards. (or 2" at 50)

With match ammo, 2" 10-round groups at 100 yards should be possible, if not entirely repeatable on demand. (or 1" at 50)

[TXBob]

Thanks for feedback.

I'm working with zero formal training. I've shot my rifle off and on, but I'm taking a step up in my training. While I consider myself "proficient" with a rifle (I won't shoot my foot off), I do not consider myself skilled yet. I have much learning to do. I plan on some classes in the future.

But everyone needs goals, one of mine is to become "skilled" with the AR. There are probably multiple areas for improvement, so it looks like a good goal is 2-3 MOA. (One of my others is to win a local IDPA match eventually-- I'm no longer last, so I'm moving on up!)

I didn't use the irons this time because they were clearly off (Windage) and I was having trouble adjusting them (It was DD A1.5 BUIS). I'm used to A2 and couldn't get the dang wheel to move, even using a small allen wrench to push in the detent. I had to use a screwdriver/allen wrench at home to move it and light them up with the dot.

The red dot was pretty well on from the get-go at 50.

[Redhat]

TXBob,

I'd go ahead and buy an AR15 sight adjustment tool and save yourself further frustration. Also, if it is a drum style rear sight adjustment, I have good luck using the tip of a ball round or as a last resort, a nail. Try a little oil on it and see if it loosens up.

[TXBob]

I read about that a bit late but I'll definitly give it a try.


The dot is 4MOA so that's a good guide for what my group was. THe dot did cover my group.

The ammo is probably junk too, I bough it just so I could go to the range, I have 1000 rounds of Q1313A that is useless at local ranges. Not that its match ammo, but its probably better than the el-cheapo junk I got just so i could get to the range

[GunnutAF]

TXBob
So you can't shoot ball at your range? That sucks! I take it you don't reload either? With good factory ammo you should get atleast 1" or less at 50 yards! A smaller dot will help you shrink your groups- practice, practice!:D

[Ash Hess]

4 MOA groups are what you should be striving for. That will be 2 inches at 50. Easily attainable for most AR's. If not there is a problem with the Rifle
Here are the basic "Fundamentals" you can build on. There are tons of Local events that will help you build these prior to going to a High Quality Carbine course.

Stance
Sight Alignment
Sight Picture
Breathing
Trigger control
Followthrough

[JSantoro]

... a 6 inch diameter circle at 50 yards. (Basically the area under the red dot).

For reference only, that's well outside the dot. Advertising says 4MOA, in reality it's closer to 3.3-3.5MOA. Same emitter as in the M-series, but in a shorter body, so the dot is between 3 and 4MOA.

Call it 4MOA anyhow, that's 4.188" @ 100yd.

Cut that in half for 50yd, that's 2.094". Call it 2"

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Further reference: size of the dot doesn't realistically affect accuracy from a mechanical or visual standpoint. If you use, say, the 12 o'clock position of the dot and consistently rest it on the same POA on the target every time, and with all else being equal, your rounds will group within the MOA capability of the barrel/round combo being fired.

Molon ginned up a lovely thread about that very topic, with photos, some time back in regard to 4MOA dots, and I know that I've done it with the 9MOA dot on the RMR atop the TA11SDO with Mk318, Mk262, M855. Referencing the reticle for group size is about equal parts myth (used by folks that don't know better) and excuse (used by folks that do, but count on its surface plausibility).

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You'll likely start to see better results with some training and more trigger time. What you have right now isn't really indicative of anything except the need for both, which is something that applies to pretty much anybody. Going for 2" groups at that range on demand isn't an unreasonable goal, at this point.