View Full Version : AR Accuracy. What does it mean to you?
Ground rules- Please do not start pissing in this thread and acting like an ass. I want to hear some coherent and intelligent remarks and thoughts.
Having said that, I am curious about something. There have been more than enough threads where people are asking about how accurate xxx DMR rifle is, or this AR or that ammo, etc...
Here is what I want to know.
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
Rattlehead
02-27-11, 00:59
1. At the moment, within 20 or so yards for HD.
2. Depends what the use of the rifle is, I like my 18" BCM Mk12 Mod 1U to shoot tight groups (which it has), 1MOA or sub MOA ideally. I don't expect my E3 upper or my 14.5" BCM to shoot to that higher standard.
3. Now, no. Obviously a civilian isn't going to be picking people off from a distance. However, within the next year or two, I'd like to think that I will be able to feel confident with my future duty rifle out to 300 or so yards.
4. ;) It's nice to have a happy medium between reliability and accuracy, but with my BCM I get the best of both worlds. If I was kicking in doors every day then I'd take reliability over accuracy (within reason) for the sake of survival.
My uses: Duty carry and HD.
Accuracy standard: I'm happy with 2 MOA, as mine are not DMR or target weapons.
Distance engagement: I can justify it if the aggressor has the means, opportunity, ability and demonstrated intent to be a threat, and presents as a threat of great bodily harm or death.
Reliability vs. Accuracy: I'll take reliability every time. Accuracy can be coaxed out of a weapon to a point, but a tack driver is useless if it can't go bang.
Pat
I don't have a ranch, and I don't need to shoot coyotes at 600 yards. I can't see justifying shooting at anything living target further than 15 yards without some crazy scenario.
I have an upper that I only shoot good ammo through, with a big heavy bull barrel, for shooting from a bench exclusively. For that upper, accuracy is supreme. I haven't had any reliability issues with it, but if I had to sacrifice reliability or accuracy on it, I would sacrifice reliability first.
For "doing drills and learning weapon manipulation" and the rifle I'll be taking to a vickers class later, I don't care if it doesn't shoot better than 3moa. That's a chrome lined BCM upper. The best ammo I've shot through it is Prvi Match ammo. It usually gets steel case ammo.
Different tools for different purposes.
1. The rifle range I shoot at has metal plates at 200 yards that I think are 6-8" across. If I can shoot inside that almost all the time I am happy with that for my purposes. From prone and sitting I am there already. Working on kneeling, don't know if I can get there standing unsupported, can hit pretty consistently standing supported a bit by a pole or some other structure.
2. Shooting 1 MOA at 100 yards with a RDS or irons is beyond my current ability, even if the rifle were capable of it in more skilled hands, so no it doesn't.
3. There have been a few law enforcement shootings *that I heard of* (meaning there are probably more) in Pierce County that were ~100 yards and apparently they shoot those kinds of distances in their pistol quals for a reason. If it is plausible in a law enforcement context I assume it could be possible in a self defense context, even if highly unlikely, particularly in more rural environments. I commonly hear people say they can't justify shooting somebody past X but these same people are more than capable of being a lethal threat to somebody at many times X, so the opinion seems poorly thought out.
However I do agree the more likely scenario for those of us living in the burbs and who are not armed professional is inside our homes or in our smallish yards, probably ~10-15 yards or less.
4. Reliability.
Stormrider
02-27-11, 02:29
I don't use mine for anything more than hunting.
1. I'm happy with 2 moa, tickled with 1, and ecstatic with less.
2. No.
3. No.
4. Reliability is king. Accuracy doesn't really make much difference if the rifle won't work well.
My needs for a fighting firearm are limited to defending me and mine. The longest shot I foresee needing to make is the distance from where I throw up the bed as a barricade to the bedroom door. My sons are grown and when my oldest enters the Air Force this May, it will be just my wife & I in the house.
Another situation I may need a fighting firearm is while out in the wilderness camping, exploring & hunting. If someone is threatening me and/or the wife from 300 yards away, it's probably best to jump in the Jeep and get away.
With the accuracy folks are getting from an AR, especially modern ARs, I'd be disappointed to only get 2 or 3 MOA with the right ammo. But an unreliable AR is unacceptable. One thing I've learned from this forum is that an AR does not have to be unreliable. I owe you folks for that.
One thing I learned from shooting my Colt HBar with the 20" barrel. A man-sized target can be hit out to some pretty far ranges with an iron sighted AR
Let clarify a little more. I don't care if you have a dedicated upper for this or that or if you have 20 AR's in the safe.
I am referring to someone that has one AR or someone that would be looking to purchase one.
Also, I don't what to hear about scenarios that may have occurred or hypotheticals. For example #3- "yes, I could envision shooting someone at 100 yards if I were out hunting or hiking and some whacko took a shot at me".
Magic_Salad0892
02-27-11, 04:34
I believe that the ideal barrel length in a civilian rifle is 11.5''.
Let me explain.
It's unlikely that a civilian is going to be in a shooting past 25m or so, and what a 11/10.5'' gun does is provide manoeuvrability and speed, along with convenience.
My likely scenarios would be in my home, or in/near my car (where I keep a rifle of said length) so a CQBR would be preferable to a 14.5''/16.1'' gun.
Couple this with a suppressor and you have a (possibly) hearing safe defence gun which should equal to the size of a 16.1/14.5'' gun.
How is this relevant to accuracy?
What is the intended purpose of a shorter barrel gun, and what is needed?
Accuracy isn't a requirement (within reason) in realistic engagements.
A lot of the time, point shooting or firing when your target is centered in the rear sight regardless of where the front sight is - is happening at a distance like that.
Match accuracy is not a requirement.
1.5 MOA is asked of by me from a defence gun. Anything less(more) is ideal. Anything more(less) can be accounted for/fixed. Assuming a stock (out of the box) rifle.
Could I justify a long range shooting?
Yes - In a SHTF scenario where civilians are cooperating with LEO in desperate times = desperate measures situation.
My weapons required engagement distance is 300/400m (for that extreme situation), 600m is great (for fun - and my weapon can do it), 800m is ideal. (For fun - and I've found out my weapon can do it.)
Also - knowing your weapon can stretch those distances is a great confidence booster.
My requirements in order.
1 - Reliability
2 - Accuracy
3 - Manoeuvrability
4 - Controllability
5 - Ease of storage/Maintenance.
I hope that answers the question.
Good idea IG.
My go to gun shoots under 3 minutes in my hands (field positions), which suits me fine considering. I would expect better from a heavier weapon although I have a hard time imagining a shot past 200m. Most likely in the already unlikely event that I deploy it in a fight, it will be used at 10m or less. I'd say my ability to make first round UKD hits goes down quickly after 250m. With an ACOG I can extend that significantly at the cost of speed up close.
ETA: Reliability is the first and foremost requirement, but it is easily achieved with the AR15/M16FOW.
Let clarify a little more. I don't care if you have a dedicated upper for this or that or if you have 20 AR's in the safe.
I am referring to someone that has one AR or someone that would be looking to purchase one.
Also, I don't what to hear about scenarios that may have occurred or hypotheticals. For example #3- "yes, I could envision shooting someone at 100 yards if I were out hunting or hiking and some whacko took a shot at me".
Then what *do* you want to hear about? It sounds like you're stacking the discussion to reach a foregone conclusion. I'm sure that's not your intent but when you try to so closely control the content o a thread...
Application matters. Is this thread reserved only for those that own an AR for interior home defense? What about hobby shooters? Or competition shooters? Or those with concerns (however valid or invalid) about possible societal breakdown (whether short- or long-term)?
I will say two things on this topic:
1) accuracy in the AR platform is far more a function of the shooter, the optic and the ammo than the gun.
2) reliability and accuracy are not mutually exclusive.
As a first weapon or only weapon? I think the question has to be asked what the intended role of the weapon will be. For me, living within city limits, I think a good reliable light weight weapon trumps other configs. My "role" for an AR is mostly short range play, carbine classes from time to time and home defense. So in that role reliability reins king over moa accuracy. I would never be in a situation where I would have to shoot a perp at 100 yards. Heck, where I live I don't have a clean sight plain out to 100 yards and beyond without cars and houses being in the way.
Now if multiple weapons are included then sure, have an accurate weapon just because you can (if you can). Throw in an SBR and of course a 7.62 version as well
I contacted Iraqgunz about a build of which I am in the process. He Brought the same question up to me. The build i am working on is to be shot at longer distances 500m+. I want to work on the technical aspects of getting the right D.O.P.E. on the rifle, learning the small (but important) details of a longer range shot and then practice.
What accuracy means to me is:
I have the skills and practical knowledge to make a shot.
Have the experience to make the shot.
And FUN. I never want to take a man or woman. I would if my life or family were threatened.
I like looking at really little groups of holes that I made. It is a question of challenging yourself.
I have the opinion that any firearm must serve a self defensive purpose, but that does not mean I would fire on an individual unless it is a life and death situation (at 500 meters, I can sneak out of there)
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
Shooting in competition with long barrel. 1moa or better at 100 yards.
Shooting in a home defense situation: not really an issue at 20 ft.
At the range, bragging rights
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
yes, to me, at least.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
NO
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
Absolute reliability.
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
In a worst case senario I basically need to be able to hit a human head at 100 yards.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
Nope, as said above either would be fine I just have to be able to hit a human head at 100 yards.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
It depends on what you consider extreme distances. For me on duty 100 yards is pretty extreme. I could justify it and I know what my rifle can do as we had to practice it in rifle class. I know of instances in my department where shots at 50 and 100 yards were not taken because the operator was not confident at those distances.
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
This one is hard. I need to be accurate as I am responsible for each round. One stray round could mean a dead innocent, a civil suit and the possibility of losing my house and everything I own. But if the rifle is not reliable there is no reason to lug it around as I am already carrying 25 pounds of gear. If it came down to it I would take accuracy as most LEO gunfights are low round could affairs and if it craps out I always have my pistol.
Gunfighter 9
02-27-11, 08:12
My personal standard of accuracy is that all rounds hit center of mass at whatever range I am engaging at. I personally don't care about 1 MOA at 100 yards. I will be perfectly happy with 4 or 5 MOA as long as all rounds are COM. I think most people over hype accuracy on an AR to begin with. It is not designed or even really inteneded to be a sniper weapon. Of course some variants are used in this role, but that is the exception not the rule. However, most guns are far more accurate than their operators are capable of being. So the key to accuracy from any rifle is practice and ability.
As for justification of shooting someone in the legal realm that is a very tricky subject. In general most state laws regarding self defense require that you be in immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury or acting on behalf of someone who is. It is going to be hard to explain why you shot someone at 100 yards if they are not also carrying a rifle of some kind. In reality if you actually use a carbine for defensive purposes the distance will be well under 25 yards. In fact, the distance is likely to be across the room or down a hallway in your house.
I am personally more concerned with reliabilty than grouping size. I know that my trigger control and sight alignment affect grouping much more than the latest and greatest barrels, muzzles, etc. However, the design and quality of the weapon and its associated parts controls reliability more than I do. Assuming that you provide appropriate lubrication and maintenance.
I went back and checked my logs for group sizes with two different rifles. I am not a benchrest shooter, but this is what I got for 5-shot groups at 50 yards. Spare the "it's not good enough" posts, I know that this does not meet with the standards most would like to see. These were shot fast, to meet the requirements of the publisher. Shot from a bipod attached to the FF tube with a Leupold cheap 30mm 3-9x scope.
Spike's M4LE Enhanced (best group)
1.21" Wolf 55 gr FMJ
1.44"vWolf 62 gr FMJ
0.82" Wolf 75 gr HP
1.29" Wolf XM193 55 gr FMJ
0.85" Black Hills 75 gr HP
BCM RECCE 14 (average group)
1.49" Barnaul Brown Bear 62
1.48" Wolf Military Classic 55
1.66" Prvi Partisan XM193 55
0.70" Black Hills Blue Box 77
Quiet-Matt
02-27-11, 08:21
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical. The furthest I shoot is 200yds as I'm limited by tree lines and terrain.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
Not really. Center mass on the shilouette is all I'm looking for. I rarely shoot from a bench.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)? No
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes? Reliability for sure. What good is accuracy if she wont work?
All answers are based on what I look for in my "Fighting Rifle".
I am not a professional (for the record)
But, if i can repeatedly score hits on a CHL target (human size) at 100yds with iron sights, and 200yds with optics in the 10 or 9 ring (yes thats a fairly large area), i am happy (by repeatedly i mean at least 80%). (standing, kneeling, prone positions)
Yes shooting small groups is cool and fun, no doubt. But i honestly have never measured a group before.
tomalibrando
02-27-11, 08:45
If I correctly remember in the Colt armorer class, the the military requirement for an M16 was 3 MOA or less. Most every Colt/ LMT upper we've/ I've shot has been about 2 MOA or better which is great for a combat, non precision weapon. I think if the system is under that standard, you're probably doing pretty well. I'd rather have a reliable system at 3 MOA than a half MOA that works sometimes. Most high quality systems nowadays satifsy both accuracy and reliability and the range of Mfrs has increased based on demand. As for forseeing a scenario where you'd have to engage a threat at extreme distance in the civilian world, you'd be hard pressed to find one. The key is two things, seeing the actual threat, and clearly identifying that it is a threat. Especially something that is trying not to be seen. Optics close that gap a bit. If you live in a rural area, an LEO who works in that same environment, OK, maybe it could happen. Just my 2 cents.
1. How accurate does your AR need to be?
Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical. When I was in the military it was one thing. As a civilian not in LE or the industry, all I have are scenarios. As a civilian, I would not be trying to capture ground. I cannot imagine an engagement beyond 100m. As a civilian, I need to avoid such engagements if at all possible. So accuracy should not be so much of a concern.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
Since accuracy requirements increase the greater the distance, I could live with 3 MOA at 100m or less. The average width of an adult human being's is chest is about 16". That leaves plenty of room in my opinion to hit your target with a 3 MOA or less gun at 100m. Accuracy only increases the more the distance decreases in general terms.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
LOL... No. In a court of law, you can't. Under a lawless scenario, it would stand to reason that your own ammo supply would be limited and you may see one person 150m away and not notice six of his buddies each with a few hundred rounds. If you have that much distance between you and your target, there is likely going to be objects you can use to conceal your evasion. Unless of course you are in a barren desert like situation, where there is absolutely nothing between you and them.
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
Reliability every time. Accuracy does you no good if your gun won't fire with every trigger pull. nothing louder than a click when there should be a bang.
IG - I am glad you brought this up. It is certainly a good discussion.
tomalibrando
02-27-11, 09:11
I'll throw one more thing out reference the accuracy issue. I don't forsee having to engage a man sized target at 100 yards. More than likely, it won't be. It'll be just a part of a man sized target (maybe part of a head and shoulders) and possibly on the move. Accuracy suddenly becomes an important variable. Shooting a full man sized target on the range is probably not the standard we should be thinking of. If the bad guy has half a brain, he won't make it that easy. Thats why I think 3 MOA or smaller is a good way to go. Add stress and hard breathing, things probably won't be as tight as we initially imagined.
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? I want no larger than 3-4" groups at 100 yards, from my defense/SHTF carbine (Colt 6920). In the future, I am going to buy/build a varmint AR, and I'll want/expect the tightest groups possible.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards? For a battle or home/self defense rifle, no, not in my opinion. The assailant isn't going to notice the different between a 1" group and a 3" group when the bullets are ripping through him.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)? I don't think I can. Almost all of the self defense scenarios I can cook up would be 100 yards or less (and even 100 yards would be a stretch).
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes? With the SHTF gun, reliability comes first, no question. Fortunately, the 6920 has proven to also be sufficiently accurate at 100 yards. In a varmint gun, group sizes become more important, but reliability is still important.
pilotguyo540
02-27-11, 09:34
1)In my scenario I need 4 MOA or better out to 200m.
2) As stated in 1, no it does not matter if I shoot 1-3 MOA at 100m. I can even open that up to 8MOA at that range
3) I can't probably justify shooting someone at that range. Fortunately for me "someone" isn't my only threat. We have some pretty nasty critters in my AO.
4) (or is it 5?) I am more concerned with reliability. I do however believe they are not mutually exclusive. I also live in a ban state, so I am limited to a "fixed mag'" of 10 rounds or less, so shot placement is critical.
If I correctly remember in the Colt armorer class, the the military requirement for an M16 was 3 MOA or less.
It's interesting you bring that up. It's in the spec. I dug it out for an article last year and discussed it at length with a couple of IPs and the spec that I've seen doesn't actually define it that clearly. I'll dig it back up and repost what it says. You kind of have to back your way into the accuracy requirement though.
This is the only AR I own so i will base my answers in that context. BCM14.5 Middy upper,LMT Lower. It's my do everything weapon for now.
1.) I really I would like it to be between 1-3 MOA. the closer to 1MOA the better. It's a range, training, SD/HD, short range utility hunting, all around do everything I want it to weapon. So far I can shoot 1"-2" groups with most of that ammo I am shooting.
2.) Yes it matters to me. As Tomalibrando said, "It'll be just a part of a man sized target (maybe part of a head and shoulders) and possibly on the move. Accuracy suddenly becomes an important variable". Like I said in number 1 the closer to 1MOA the better. Gives me a little more fudge room when the heart is beating hard and the breaths are coming fast.
3.) I can't justify shooting someone at extreme ranges in normal scenerios.
4.) I am more concerned with reliability. As has been said many times regardless of how well I can shoot it, if it doesn't go bang everytime then accuracy doesn't do me much good.
It sounds like you're stacking the discussion to reach a foregone conclusion. I'm sure that's not your intent but when you try to so closely control the content o a thread...
I think he is trying to stack the discussion to reach a foregone conclusion and for good reason. Outside of a competition gun, pretty much any sighted in rifle or carbine will be more than accurate enough to blast some asshole climbing though your back window. Point being folks should stop worrying so much about how accurate their guns are and learn to fight with them instead.
MrMilspecer
02-27-11, 10:35
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
The more accurate the better. I could use a 4 moa AR for HD but would prefer 1 moa.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
Yes both my 16'' carbines will shoot 1moa or better.
My Dan. Def. held a five shot group under an inch w/ 69 gr handloads on its first range trip.
The reason i would prefer 1moa is I like to hunt varmints also.
To be honest i would be a little disapointed if the best best my AR could shoot was 3moa.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
No.
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
Reliability first and foremost since most shootings happen at close range. Good group sizes are a nice bonus.
__________________
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
For range training, HD and/or limited outdoor protection uses (Katrina type situation) 3 MOA is fine.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
No, only to my ego
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
Not stateside, only in theatre so far. Not a concern, I can see out to 100 in a looter-they are shooting back at that distance- type situation, but that itself is highly unlikely.
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?Reliability
An AK would suit me just fine...I chose the AR for ergonomics and training/operational familiarity (though I'm very familiar with AKs also), not accuracy.
RogerinTPA
02-27-11, 10:43
Then what *do* you want to hear about? It sounds like you're stacking the discussion to reach a foregone conclusion. I'm sure that's not your intent but when you try to so closely control the content o a thread...
Application matters. Is this thread reserved only for those that own an AR for interior home defense? What about hobby shooters? Or competition shooters? Or those with concerns (however valid or invalid) about possible societal breakdown (whether short- or long-term)?
I will say two things on this topic:
1) accuracy in the AR platform is far more a function of the shooter, the optic and the ammo than the gun.
2) reliability and accuracy are not mutually exclusive.
Agreed. If the shooters skills aren't up to par, the accuracy of the weapon won't help. In fact, I've seen and performed better accuracy with a few less optimal weapons that some folks have written off, blaming the weapon...as usual.
I went back and checked my logs for group sizes with two different rifles. I am not a benchrest shooter, but this is what I got for 5-shot groups at 50 yards. Spare the "it's not good enough" posts, I know that this does not meet with the standards most would like to see. These were shot fast, to meet the requirements of the publisher. Shot from a bipod attached to the FF tube with a Leupold cheap 30mm 3-9x scope.
Spike's M4LE Enhanced (best group)
1.21" Wolf 55 gr FMJ
1.44"vWolf 62 gr FMJ
0.82" Wolf 75 gr HP
1.29" Wolf XM193 55 gr FMJ
0.85" Black Hills 75 gr HP
BCM RECCE 14 (average group)
1.49" Barnaul Brown Bear 62
1.48" Wolf Military Classic 55
1.66" Prvi Partisan XM193 55
0.70" Black Hills Blue Box 77
Completely acceptable accuracy, in fact your groups are better than what I expected, especially for eastern block steel ammo, for most needs on this forum.
I'll throw one more thing out reference the accuracy issue. I don't forsee having to engage a man sized target at 100 yards. More than likely, it won't be. It'll be just a part of a man sized target (maybe part of a head and shoulders) and possibly on the move. Accuracy suddenly becomes an important variable. Shooting a full man sized target on the range is probably not the standard we should be thinking of. If the bad guy has half a brain, he won't make it that easy. Thats why I think 3 MOA or smaller is a good way to go. Add stress and hard breathing, things probably won't be as tight as we initially imagined.
Agreed.
I also feel that 2-3 MOA out to 300M, factoring in stress, terrain, threat ID, weather, AND whether you got engaged or you are doing the engaging, is a reasonable expectation for combat accuracy. That, plus reliability, would be the best combination.
philipeggo
02-27-11, 11:03
Ground rules- Please do not start pissing in this thread and acting like an ass. I want to hear some coherent and intelligent remarks and thoughts.
Having said that, I am curious about something. There have been more than enough threads where people are asking about how accurate xxx DMR rifle is, or this AR or that ammo, etc...
Here is what I want to know.
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
1) As long as i can hit a man sized target out to 200yds then thats good enough for me. realistically i dont even need that but a rifle that cant hit a human sized target that far out is a pretty poorly made rifle IMO, thats just a bench mark i would use.
2) The smaller the better and i think as shooters/builders/hobbyists whatever we should be striving to make our guns as accurate as possible as well as ourselves.
3) not really but like i said everyone needs to have a bench mark and i think 200 yards is a solid one.
4) Both: a accurate gun that jams or misfires every few rounds is useless , if it shoots all the time but cant make a tight group then i may as well just buy an AK and spray. If my gun cant shoot good groups id rather it be my fault than my rifle's.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/securedownload.jpg?t=1298828759
For a mulit-purpose AR, I would prefer that it be able to handle 1.5 MOA at 100 yards. I wouldn't need that most of the time, but it's nice to know it has the ability if needed.
Realistically, I just need it to be able to consistently hit 4"-6" circles(essentially just center-mass) while shooting multiple shots. This would be a requirement from 25 yards to 100 yards with the closer ranges needing quicker follow up shots.
I don't do any varminting or even larger game hunting with my AR. I don't do any long range sport shooting aside from practice. I just have it as a tool for emergencies. And even in a SHTF situation, I can't see the need to engage anybody past 100 yards.
Belmont31R
02-27-11, 13:11
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
I shoot just about weekly on a range that goes out to 1k. The furthest I really shoot regularly out to is 750 yards so a gun capable of hitting that excluding environment and shooter.
For home defense just around the house so 50 yards.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
Yes.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
I can't imagine needing to shoot someone at more than around the house distances but I believe I could do it given the shooting I regular do, and what my rifles are capable of. I do think it would have to be a pretty wild situation, though, for me to ever have something like that come up.
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
Reliability is first and foremost but both is the best.
I have two AR's a Colt Match Target 20" I purchased mainly for Target shooting and yote hunting-my reason for buying an AR to begin with!
Then I got a Carbine for general target shooting a SD purposes cause it was so much fun to shoot! With the Colt I expect and want 1MOA or better and load for such. With the Carbine I'm getting about 1MOA which is great , but when I get less I don't fret about it cause for what it's for 2 MOA is fine!:D
Why is reliability involved on this topic...making a rifle more accurate should never even come close to jeopardizing the rifle's reliability.
Even though this thread is suppose to define accuracy a bit better, the majority of the replies still include things like 1moa, sub moa, 3moa...and so forth yet nothing is stipulated in terms of amt. of rds. and distance.
I would love to assume all these accuracy claims are derived from 10rd groups @ 100yds, however I certain that is far from the case.
So basically we have no common language or means to compare with one another when somebodies 1moa rifle has been determined by 3-5rd groups using a single type of ammo vs. another person's 1.5moa rifle who has been determined by 10rd @100yd groups using multiple types of ammo. Those two are so far from being apples to apples it's not even reasonable to think about.
I want a rifle as accurate as possible because, I, like the great Townsend Whelen feel "Only accurate guns are interesting".
That being said I decided my first AR (and currently my only one) would be a fighting rifle. I figured I could always get a precision upper if I get into that type of shooting.
I also realize that the odds of me using my "fighting gun" for actual fighting are extremely slim. So for me accuracy enhances the fun factor while practicing for the exceedingly unlikely scenario were I would be fighting with my rifle...and in most of those scenarios I would envision my pistol being employed. Also the best accuracy possible can't hurt in a practical scenario.
Here is what I want to know.
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical. I only have one AR at the moment and it is a combo hunting / protection application...it's a 12.5 suppressed sbr and shoots right around 1moa which is what I require
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards? Yes, you cannot ear hole a hog a 200yds with a 3moa rifle...doesn't matter when the rds is mounted
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)? Only reason I can see for this would be for return fire at whatever 'extreme' happens to be, so guess I'll say yes.
4. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes? I consider both to be very important in my one AR
I'm probably not the average AR owner in this crowd & admit I go against the grain for my current needs.
So basically we have no common language or means to compare with one another when somebodies 1moa rifle has been determined by 3-5rd groups using a single type of ammo vs. another person's 1.5moa rifle who has been determined by 10rd @100yd groups using multiple types of ammo. Those two are so far from being apples to apples it's not even reasonable to think about.
If he shooters are two different guys who only know each other through the Internet it doesn't matter if they shoot 100 rd groups. IMHO. As I mentioned, the shooter and ammo are the weak links FAR more often than the gun or barrel.
Unless both shooters clamp the gun in a vice and fire in a vacuum it's apples:oranges no matter how you slice them.
If, however, you have someone like molon who is a know. Entity and who replicates his own testing fairly frequently, and you have him test several different rifles or loads, the. You start to approach usable data.
Trident82
Well a ten round group does nothing when at most I get 1 maybe 2 shots at a yote! And the groups I'm talking about for my match target are 5-10 round groups! As well for my carbine! Cause when I shoot for groups I'm also throwing these rounds over a chrony!:D
Thanks for the replies so far. My reason for asking is this is because I have read and heard numerous people complaining about their group sizes. Or they are obsessed with buying a rifle that will shoot sub-MOA or they want to know how accurate xxxxx ammunition is.
IMHO unless you are a DDM or Sniper I don't see how most of it is relevent. If you are shooting in some type of competition and that was the reason for your purchase it makes sense.
My personal feeling is that a rifle or carbine is a fighting weapon first. The reliability factor is first and foremost. Based on my own shooting abilities and what I have seen from friends and associates most of the current AR's are more than accurate enough.
The only time I could see me shooting at someone over 100 yards would be some type of weird scenario where I am out hiking and some whacko shoots at me or the world is ending and it's complete chaos.
The only part about your use of deadly force question I didn't get IG is what you meant by "except in some kind of crazy scenario." In my mind using deadly force period is a crazy scenario that takes lots of forethought and can include a wide range of possibilities that run from most likely (but still unlikely) out to nearly impossible. Unless by crazy you meant Chinese invasion, Zombie Apocalypse, or other scenarios that are less likely than being struck by lightning or flat out impossible.
The idea of being in the great outdoors and being shot at is not that crazy to me, even if the more likely scenario involves some kind of breakin in your home.
Crazy scenario- Hills Have Eyes, Chinese Hordes, Zombie Masses, running gun battle with the drug cartel in the hills as you stumble across their operation, etc...
The only part about your use of deadly force question I didn't get IG is what you meant by "except in some kind of crazy scenario." In my mind using deadly force period is a crazy scenario that takes lots of forethought and can include a wide range of possibilities that run from most likely (but still unlikely) out to nearly impossible. Unless by crazy you meant Chinese invasion, Zombie Apocalypse, or other scenarios that are less likely than being struck by lightning or flat out impossible.
The idea of being in the great outdoors and being shot at is not that crazy to me, even if the more likely scenario involves some kind of breakin in your home.
Crazy scenario- Hills Have Eyes, Chinese Hordes, Zombie Masses, running gun battle with the drug cartel in the hills as you stumble across their operation, etc...
Combined with the "can you justify" part of it I thought you were talking about legal justification. I often hear people who can kill somebody deader than a door nail out to several hundred yards claim they can't justify (in court) shooting somebody past 25. Isn't there a logic breakdown in there somewhere? If I can kill him it stands to reason he can kill me, so if he has AOJ I can justify it right?
If I am taking the thread off on a tangent let me know and I will bow out.
1. I enjoy competing in practical rifle and 3 gun matches. For the long range stages at matches I typically shoot, I need my AR to typically be able to consistently hit 8 inch plates at 300 yards. Because the firing is from hasty field positions and on the clock, I will invariably miss and have to sometimes shoot targets multiple times in quick succession. Therefore, the most important thing to me is not so much super tiny MOA groups, it is more that the rifle be consistent in shooting to point of aim whether the shot is my first on a cold bore, or my 60th in 70 seconds when I'm having a nightmare on a stage and the bore is very hot.
2. With small targets at long(ish) ranges it is preferable to have a rifle that at least can shoot tight groups. As mentioned above, with field positions and being in a hurry you are never going to get that on the day - but eliminating one more factor can only be a good thing. I'd sooner have an accurate rifle than not.
3. N/A, really. However, I work on the premise that every single firearm I own can do double duty if required. For that reason I'll never have a 100% "race gun" and win any major matches - I enjoy competing with practical, fully duty capable weapons. I figure if I go out and prove the rifle through competition on a fairly regular basis, I will at least know what the rifle is capable of in the extremely unlikely event this will ever be an issue.
4. A balance of reliability and accuracy. With high volume rates of fire required, malfunctions are unwanted. Similarly for reasons already covered, something that groups like a shotgun would also be completely worthless most of the time, even if it were the most reliable rifle on earth.
Let's leave that for another thread. Maybe I should have left that out of the OP. Maybe my thoughts aren't translating into keyboard speak properly.
Combined with the "can you justify" part of it I thought you were talking about legal justification. I often hear people who can kill somebody deader than a door nail out to several hundred yards claim they can't justify (in court) shooting somebody past 25. Isn't there a logic breakdown in there somewhere? If I can kill him it stands to reason he can kill me, so if he has AOJ I can justify it right?
If I am taking the thread off on a tangent let me know and I will bow out.
I will bite:
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
For the purpose of why I purchased an AR I expected it to be accurate enough for me to hit the vitals of a man sized target at 100 yards. It was purchased as a multi use firearm for defense, hunting in an emergency if out of larger caliber ammo, and so that I could improve my ability with a higher caliber rifle then a .22lr that wasn't going to break the bank/bruise the hell out of me. That is why I originally bought the gun. I have since fallen in love with it and want to keep improving the more and more I take it out.
But ultimately the answer is that it needs to be accurate enough to kill a living thing, just like all of my guns.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
Yea it does, but purely because I personally want to be able to shoot 1MOA with the gun at 100 yards. I've never gotten 1 MOA at 100 yards with my AR and probably never well given that this gun has no magnification. But every time I shoot past 100 yards, I shoot striving for SubMOA, I do this as a general rule to insure that I am always hitting within 3-4 MOA.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
Only if it is obvious that person is taking the lives of others, or intending on taking my life. Honestly this is a trick question. Every scenario where this would apply is a "crazy scenario" where the person shooting is put into a "crazy" situation. I don't want to ever have to shoot anyone. Will I if it is critical for me and mine to live one more day? Yep.
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
Reliability. That is an easy one. I need my AR to be able to chew through any ammo I put in it, and go bang every time.
Let me clarify my original post-
Here is what I want to know.
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
The plan is to barricade myself and my wife in our room and call 911 on our cell phone. I do not plan to go searching the house if someone were to break in. Our room is small and from the furthest corner to the door is about 20 feet. The reality is, at that range, the bullets could be key-holing and still hit a small man-sized target. For this particular scenario, the practical accuracy only needs to be, say 12 inches at 20 feet. I can do that shooting quickly from a handgun when calm, wide awake and not shaking from an adrenalin dump. Under the same conditions, I could easily cut that in half with a carbine.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
Yes, if we're talking about mechanical accuracy with good quality ammunition. If we're talking practical accuracy, shooting unsupported, I would be very happy with keeping 10 rounds inside 6 inches and would be an obnoxious braggart if those 10 rounds fell inside 3 inches.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
No. The only scenario I could foresee feeling threatened at anything beyond conversation range would be while we were in the Great Outdoors camping/exploring/hunting. If I did feel our lives were threatened by someone from a distance, we would leave. If attacked from a distance, I would shoot to put their heads down so we could get out of there. However, it's been my experience that badguys want to be in very close to size up a potential victim, maximize intimidation and control the situation before they attack.
Another possibility would be getting caught in a situation like the Hollywood Shootout, but that falls in the Crazy Scenario category.
4. There is no Question 4
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
At "Dude, you seriously need a breath mint" ranges, reliability is all. I would not carry an arm that might shoot.
Let's clarify a little more. I don't care if you have a dedicated upper for this or that or if you have 20 AR's in the safe.
I am referring to someone that has one AR or someone that would be looking to purchase one.
All my firearms get used for plinking and hunting, even those purchased for defensive purposes. Also, since we do spend time outdoors, hunting firearms must be ready, if called upon, to reliably function in defensive role.
I am glad this question was asked. In attempting to answer honestly, it's forced me to think on this subject in a way I have not for a long while. It's reminded me that chasing after accuracy as a "real improvement" to my defensive arms is false economy. 3 MOA will produce a group size of .3" at 10 yards. That's still small enough to hit someone in the eye- if the rifle is reliable
I use my Ar for hunting. I expect it to be as accurate as my .308 i've been using for years. 2 moa is about as accurate as I can shoot.
As far as moa at 100 or 300. If I could only shoot 3 moa at 100 I probably won't take the shot at 300.
No, I can't forsee shooting someone at 100 yards. If they were shooting at me or someone else then yes.
For what I do accuracy is very important. But if you pull the trigger and there's no bang then WTF? I've shoot around 1000 rounds out of my latest ar and it's gone bang so far. That's good enough for me. And, It's as accurate as I can shoot it. So, I'm happy.
My reason for asking is this is because I have read and heard numerous people complaining about their group sizes. Or they are obsessed with buying a rifle that will shoot sub-MOA or they want to know how accurate xxxxx ammunition is.
IMHO unless you are a DDM or Sniper I don't see how most of it is relevant.
One reason I can see to justify the obsessiveness with platform and ammunition accuracy is being able to minimize the limiting factors in the equation. Someone may not want their ammunition or platform selection to be sub-par or "not up to the task" when they really need it. I've built and raced motorcycles and equipped them with $1800 shock absorbers and $300 tires. I was never good enough to utilize all of that capability, but my brain felt a ton better knowing my equipment wouldn't let me down when I needed it.
Make sense?
1. I need to hit an 8" plate at about 300 yards.
2. It depends on the situation, here are the two that I can think of:
a)1 MOA @ 100 yards for varminting, such as prairie dogs.
b)8 MOA @ 100 yards for work (.mil).
3. Not in civilian life, but deployed is another story.
4. Reliability. I need to trust my rifle.
arizonaranchman
02-27-11, 17:59
This is a serious business weapon meant for dealing with bad people bent on bad intentions. I don't worry about pin-point accuracy with this type of weapon. If I can hit a pie plate at whatever range i'm shooting at 100% of the time then that's good to go (a bad guy's chest basically). For my purposes around my remote rural home it's primarily meant for coyote, bobcat, mtn lion, predators of whatever sort because it'll perform that task well and also fulfill it's primary purpose... for defense against bad people. In either capacity 3" to 4" groups out to 100 yards will do the trick. I'm not out sniping coyotes at long range, it's usually something quick and at short to moderate ranges when i see one and drop it.
In my profession as a patrol cop in the city it's an all-purpose carbine with an Aimpoint M4s.
This is not a sniper rifle (though is can be used as one to a degree). It's not a long range battle rifle (though it can be used as one in a pinch). It's a CQB type carbine for 50 yards or less 99% of the time for most users, and for nearly all users 100 yards or less. Only in full-on military engagements is it put to 100+ yard usage very often.
Reliablity is absolutely the most important factor with an AR15.
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
I'm in the process of building an AR now (which will be my only one) and what I'm looking for is that the rifle is accurate enough that it's my fault when I miss and not the rifle's.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
Not especially.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
I can't think of any scenario short of societal breakdown where the answer to this question would be yes (for me at least).
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
Reliability first and foremost.
JeepDriver
02-27-11, 19:20
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
I shoot mainly at 200. I have steel plates that are 10"x20" that I can consistiantly hit. That's my requirment.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
I own 1 AR that I expect more of, the rest I shoot on steel, hits count, not groups.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
No. Aside for the 'crazy scenario' I shouldn't need to take a shot past 50-100 yards
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
Reliablity.
It's all about confidence - both from a reliability standpoint and enough reasonable accuracy to get the job done. If it won't run or if it only shoots "minute of pie plate", I have no use for it.
Belmont31R
02-27-11, 22:36
One reason I can see to justify the obsessiveness with platform and ammunition accuracy is being able to minimize the limiting factors in the equation. Someone may not want their ammunition or platform selection to be sub-par or "not up to the task" when they really need it. I've built and raced motorcycles and equipped them with $1800 shock absorbers and $300 tires. I was never good enough to utilize all of that capability, but my brain felt a ton better knowing my equipment wouldn't let me down when I needed it.
Make sense?
Its vitally important for someone to have confidence in their equipment. I used to ride crotch rockets BTW....;)
IG
"running gun battle with the drug cartel in the hills as you stumble across their operation, etc..."
Been there! Just didn't have the running gun battle! But I nolonger go camping/hiking without hardware! :D
christcorp
02-27-11, 23:52
Minus some red-dawn scenario, (Where the law wouldn't matter), any self defense claim past 50 feet, is going to be extremely difficult to prove. So my accuracy requirements are not that demanding.
I'm not into competition shooting or marksmanship courses. The overwhelming majority of my shots are going to be about 100 yards +/-. That includes prairie dogs and such. A larger target, such as a coyote, I'll go out as far as 150 yards. Other than that, it's punching holes in paper and the 50 foot self defense area.
Having said that, I only use non-magnification sights. Either iron sights or red-dot optics. Both virtually the same; just that red-dots have faster target acquisition. No matter how good/bad a gun is, it's the shooter who must become accustomed to it, and they are the accuracy determination. I seen some pretty impressive shooting with kentucky long rifles. Anyway, I digress. With open iron sights / red-dots, I can consistently hit inside of a 4"x4" square target at 100 yards. I can do that with my M&P15, my Saiga .223, my frankenstein AR, and my AK 7.62x39. I guess that would be a 2moa from my point of aim.
When I'm hunting at 300-400 yards with my 7mm, 300, or 30-378, I want that same accuracy. Obviously, I need a good scope and steady hand at 400 yards. But for my AR's, I only care about the 100 yards +/-, which I can do a 4"x4" square pretty much all day. And I can do that with $4 a box steel case ammo.
That is what accuracy means to me. But I don't dog anyone who's into the long range marksmanship and competition type shooting. Obviously, they need more accuracy. That's just not for me.
it seems like any properly assembled AR will shoot 2 MOA or so no problem. With some nice tuned handloads 1 MOA is certainly within reach of the average ar15 carbine.
It's just not something i worry about much, the AR platform is inherently quite accurate. It will certainly ring steels or A-zone IPSC targets just fine inside of 300 yards with the right nut behind the trigger.
When I lived in Hawaii I shot at steel targets out to 440m, If I could hit at that distance reliably then the rifle was accurate enough for me. I havent owned an AR yet that didnt make that test boring. My SDM build has taken called shots on prairie dog pups (about coke can size) past 300 with a 4x ACOG, plenty accurate.
Smuckatelli
02-28-11, 08:47
Having said that, I am curious about something. There have been more than enough threads where people are asking about how accurate xxx DMR rifle is, or this AR or that ammo, etc...
A little background info. I spent 21 years on active duty, about 6 years total on MSG & Security Force. 18 months writing distance learning courses. The rest of the time was with line units mixed between small boats, mortars (81s), and four and a half years running a Regimental Scout Sniper Platoon. I retired in Nov 2002 and didn't start shooting again until roughly 2 years ago. I hit the range 2-3 times a month but I don't spend a lot of time there. I've been averaging 2 times a summer hitting the 600 yard line at Quantico.
I am a 100% Former Action Guy. All of my shooting is for theraphy and nothing else.
Here is what I want to know.
1. How accurate does your AR need to be? Your particular scenario, not some hypothetical.
I want to be able to keep it in the black from 100 yards. I shoot about at the sustained rate of fire for the rifle and usually go through 120 rounds per range day. I mix it up between prone, sitting, kneeling, and off hand. My goal is to rapidly get rounds on target, after the fifth round from the first magazine and the first engagement form off hand, I'll spot with the binos but that is about it. I do not have optics or other furniture on the 6920, just iron sights.
My primary ammo is BH 77 gr Match that I get for my daughter's matches.
2. Does it matter if you are shooting 1 MOA or 3 MOA at 100 yards?
No, I used to get so wrapped around the axle when I was a sniper but not since that time. I just want it in the black. My daughter is concerned about MOA, she spends way to much time taking shots, recording, adjusting sights.......it's good for her shooting but not mine.
3. Can you justify shooting someone at extreme distances (except in some type of crazy scenario)?
No, but I do feel the need to be able to reach out to 600 yards. Probably due to the ole Sniper life but it also gives the warm & fuzzy knowing that I can do it if needed. this is why I'll hit range 4 at Quantico every once in a while.
5. Are you more concerned about reliability or groups sizes?
I really can't separate the two. Range time is a time for me to go back to my younger years when the only thing that I was concerned about was hitting the target. It is a near religious/drug experience for me, I feel complete once I finish. When the groups eventually become bad.....I'll stop shooting and set up an 'I Love Me Wall' at home with my military stuff....watch a butt load of TV and tell everyone how great I was in my own mind...:suicide:
I attached two picture from my range time last week. The 'Rifle' and 'Pistol' jpgs. That day I did not do offhand, when I do the white portions usually have some holes.
The pistol is from 15 yards.....I suck but I'm working on getting rid of my Linda Lovelace pistol shooting.
With regards to defense accuracy:
Here's an example: I work at an indoor range. I see all kinds of really bad shooting (and a very small amount of decent shooting). The problem I see with most of the "tactical" crowd is how fast they want to spray rounds AT (not necessarily into) the target. Unless your trying to provide cover fire for your retreat and hoping that keeps the bad guy's head down, it would be far better to put one round where it counts than to spray a whole magazine and miss (or only hit extremities causing superficial wounds that do not stop the threat). When you get to the point where you can put one round where you want to every time...then worry about putting 2, 4, 6, etc into that spot, and doing it quickly, but if you can't do it once, why spray 5 or 6 rnds @ the target?
In regards to carbine accuracy: I'm not so much concerned with group size as I am with precision. I think Tomalibrando has it right
I'll throw one more thing out reference the accuracy issue. I don't forsee having to engage a man sized target at 100 yards. More than likely, it won't be. It'll be just a part of a man sized target (maybe part of a head and shoulders) and possibly on the move. Accuracy suddenly becomes an important variable. Shooting a full man sized target on the range is probably not the standard we should be thinking of. If the bad guy has half a brain, he won't make it that easy. Thats why I think 3 MOA or smaller is a good way to go. Add stress and hard breathing, things probably won't be as tight as we initially imagined.
I (will soon) have an ACOG on my rifle because I think the magnification is of significant advantage for me in terms of target ID and specific shot placement. I know that the best I can currently shoot off-hand with irons @ 25yds is about 4". That's not very far at all, but if all I have to aim at is part of the bad guy, the magnification will help me be more precise. Now, let's balance this: Let's not take the precision think to the extreme: It's not practical for me to take my 700 and 10X scope to this particular fight. In this case it would be too precise, but for my purposes, the optic/precision of the ACOG is a plus.
Another plus is target ID. I was bowhunting within 100yds of our property line 4 years ago. I heard a really loud gun shot directly in front of me and then the rain of shot all over my head. I gave the neighbor the benefit of the doubt that he was shooting squirrels, and just happended to aim my direction by accident. (It was still late summer and leaves were still on the trees, so I couldn't see him, and assumed he couldn't see me). Fast forward to November when all the leaves had dropped and a buddy is checking stands late season with his wife and son. Same thing happens to him, except he can see the guy pointing the shotgun right @ them. Buddy called 911 and had crazy old tree hugger arrested. The point is, if crazy tree hugger had had a scoped rifle, I would be dead. To reverse that thinking, if I have some magnification, I too can ID the threat and eliminate it with a higher probability of success.
I will agree with IG and others, though, that any top-tier AR is capable of necessary accuracy. It is important, however, to match your ammo and accessories to your needs.
My needs for a fighting firearm are limited to defending me and mine. The longest shot I foresee needing to make is the distance from where I throw up the bed as a barricade to the bedroom door. My sons are grown and when my oldest enters the Air Force this May, it will be just my wife & I in the house.
Another situation I may need a fighting firearm is while out in the wilderness camping, exploring & hunting. If someone is threatening me and/or the wife from 300 yards away, it's probably best to jump in the Jeep and get away.
That depends on where you're talking about. For example let's say you're returning to that Jeep and find that there are a couple of tweakers ransacking it and/or waiting for you. When I'm out in the mountains and my sleeping bag, etc. is in the vehicle, I'm sure as hell not going to run away or hide. A 100+ yard shot is not at all unthinkable - or even a much longer shot, if I walk down the valley to set up targets and turn around to find my girl in trouble (which is why I'm carrying the rifle down there in the first place).
In that context, ~2 moa works fine for me out of an AR. Reliability is not negotiable, though.
But what is a legit concern for one might be one of those crazy scenarios for someone else. Not many people spend that much time out in the middle of nowhere.
In suburbia? Can't envision much past 20 yards or so, depending on the size of your property.
cobravenom39
02-28-11, 22:08
That depends on where you're talking about. For example let's say you're returning to that Jeep and find that there are a couple of tweakers ransacking it and/or waiting for you. When I'm out in the mountains and my sleeping bag, etc. is in the vehicle, I'm sure as hell not going to run away or hide. A 100+ yard shot is not at all unthinkable - or even a much longer shot, if I walk down the valley to set up targets and turn around to find my girl in trouble (which is why I'm carrying the rifle down there in the first place).
In that context, ~2 moa works fine for me out of an AR. Reliability is not negotiable, though.
But what is a legit concern for one might be one of those crazy scenarios for someone else. Not many people spend that much time out in the middle of nowhere.
In suburbia? Can't envision much past 20 yards or so, depending on the size of your property.
This
I live in a suburban area and doubt that I'll ever have to take a shot over 50 yards. This is why I train at 50 yards or less - off hand. Part of firearm training is also working out. I love these guys that have 3 "tier one rifle" but won't spend 20 working out so they can support their setup for more than a few minutes.
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