3-gun matches at Black Creek (near Richmond, VA) [Archive]

Robb Jensen

09-13-07, 09:55

Black Creek 3gun website (http://dominionshootingrange.com/bc3g/)

I haven't shot one of these but want to, it's hard as they're held on the last Saturday of the month (year round) and I work MOST Saturdays. I've heard nothing but good about their matches and do plan to make one eventually.

Three 3-gun matches that I intend to shoot next year are the NC RECON (http://bc3g.ath.cx/docs/ncrecon/recon07.rtf) match and the 3-gun match at Ft. Benning (http://lchico.5u.com/AMU.html), and the CTI (http://www.cti3gun.com/) I've heard that these are some of the best ones ever.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/3gunrifle-1.jpg

blackscot

10-09-07, 06:20

http://bc3g.ath.cx/

......I've heard nothing but good about their matches and do plan to make one eventually.......

Definite +1. Very well organized, by a couple of the hardest-working match directors I've known.

Also very challenging. Takes most of the day, and fairly high round count. Engagements range from point-blank to minipoppers at 80 yards. Lots of barricades and obstacles, movement, shooting from less-than-optimal positions, etc.

Categories recognize different levels of equipment, so if you don't have a red-dot you can still shoot and be scored only against fellow iron-sighters.

No match this month (Oct), but next planned for Nov. 24. I'm counting on making it.

blackscot

11-20-07, 07:57

Just giving a bump here to make aware of this Sat.'s match. See:

http://bc3g.ath.cx/

and click on "match info". Sounds like yet another fine production!:cool:

I'd long been looking forward to this one, but my Nov. has been just freakin' crazy and there's now no way I can swing the time. :(

Maybe next month.....

Gunfixr

11-23-07, 00:16

That's a shame, Blackscot, I'm gonna be there this Sat., and was hoping to catch up with you. I'm gonna shoot my AR, not my FAL. The course looks interesting, with multiple shooters at a time on a stage.

Gunfixr

11-24-07, 19:05

Blackscot, you missed a good shoot. Lots of targets and multiple shooters on a stage made for a good time. Names were randomly drawn to form teams to shoot the stage. The teams could then decide who would take what part of the stage, and once you had finished your targets, you could engage your teamates' targets to cut down the time. One stage had three shooters at a time, with the rest having two shooters. Stage 1 had you shooting slugs from the shotgun at 80 yds., while your partner was hitting mini poppers.

blackscot

11-26-07, 06:21

Blackscot, you missed a good shoot......
--> :( :( :(

But for those who went --> :) :) :)

Sounds like a major Yee-Haw ! ! !

I see a Dec. 29 match is planned.....:rolleyes:

Robb Jensen

11-26-07, 06:45

--> :( :( :(

But for those who went --> :) :) :)

Sounds like a major Yee-Haw ! ! !

I see a Dec. 29 match is planned.....:rolleyes:

Hey I'm off that day, I think I will plan to be there! :D

blackscot

11-26-07, 09:11

.....I will plan to be there! :D

That would be utmost coolness.

I've got my calendar marked. Hoping Dec. will be more sane time management-wise than Nov. has been.

koolaid

11-26-07, 13:10

What a crazy year this has been. This looks like the one match I might be able to make this year. Now where did I put that rifle and shotgun?:D

Gunfixr

11-28-07, 00:51

I have that day off as well, so I also plan to be there. Joe told me last Sat. that he is planning a high round count, short range shoot. All stages 30 yds or under. I'm seriously considering taking my CX4 in .45 acp. He is planning lots of moving and transitions.

blackscot

11-28-07, 05:53

Sounds like we need to form a contingent of m4carbine.net members.

Robb Jensen

11-28-07, 08:05

Sounds like we need to form a contingent of m4carbine.net members.

We should squad together.........the link is dead now, how do we sign up?

blackscot

11-28-07, 08:27

We should squad together.........the link is dead now, how do we sign up?

That would be really fun!

The web site is usually available. Must be having server trouble at present. Expect it will be back up presently.

Joe also usually sends out an email a week or so ahead of time -- with the distribution list made from past participants -- when he is ready to start taking names. Registering is done just by emailing him back. I'll try to remember to cc Joe's email here when I receive it (probably sometime around Christmas), so anyone who wants to register can contact him directly. The upcoming COF's usually are posted on the web site at about the same time.

It would probably help Joe to let him know if we want to form a squad. He is very organized and likes to have everything worked out as in-advance as possible. Each of us registering could probably just say something like "I want to be squadded with the other m4carbine.net folks" for him to take care of it. Small groups of people will often come together and receive similar accommodation. Hopefully I'll be able to make it and can get the ball rolling.

Check back here toward the end of Dec. for more developments.

Gunfixr

11-28-07, 13:21

I have Joes email and will get it up here soon. The site has been going up and down lately, I don't know why.
Joe will post the COF 1-2 weeks before the shoot.
Registration opens up at midnight the Sunday night/Monday morning before the shoot, first come, first served for the first 30 people. Sometimes he will take a few more, and hold a list for any that back out.
I believe if we ask, he will squad us together, especially if we do so with our pre-registration. When you pre-register, he will send you a confirmation email.
I'll get his address up here probably later tonight after work, I'll just edit it into this post.

Edited to add: Joes email address is binazone@verizon.net

TY44934

12-05-07, 17:37

Joe put on a good shoot last month (November).

Nothing too dramatic as far as the rifle part (max range was about 80-90 yards) but the slug shots at that range were a challenge.

I hadn't shot my rifle since the scope mount came loose the day of the last Mason/Dixon, so I had to re-zero the night before out at BRA. I used the very first 80% casting I built - the one with the JB weld/buffer tube.

I realized before the match that I had sold all my good match ammo for a profit when the prices went up (was planning to reload my own - still am) so I had to shoot the match with 62grn Wolf ammo. I drove down with Salzberg & we were back on the road north by 2. I hadn't shot a 3 gun in over a year. But I was lucky & managed to finish right behind Joe; the Wolf ammo did not even blow up my gun or break an extractor.

Robb- remember the old G17 I used to use in GSSF? Its still going strong in 3gun.

blackscot

12-06-07, 05:55

Joe put on a good shoot last month (November.....I hadn't shot a 3 gun in over a year. But I was lucky & managed to finish right behind Joe......

That's pretty damn good. Joe is fast fast.

Robb Jensen

12-06-07, 06:15

blackscot

12-06-07, 11:21

I am determined to make the Dec. 29 match. THIS TIME FOR SURE ! ! !

Shall truly suck being so out-of-practice, but that can't be helped. If I can just shoot clean I'll be happy, however slow it might be.

......I might be shooting my Glock 17 as my M&P9 will be away getting a 6lb SNAPPY super short reset trigger job......

Not sure if I'll try the M&P9 (would be its first match) or default to the reliability of the fully shook-out G19. As much as I like the M&P, I'm definitely not as accustomed to it yet. Hard to say what direction the brain would fart in given new hardware.

Otherwise, the M&P15 and Rem. 870 shall round-out the gear.

TY44934

12-06-07, 15:32

I am determined to make the Dec. 29 match. THIS TIME FOR SURE ! ! !
Not sure if I'll try the M&P9 (would be its first match) or default to the reliability of the fully shook-out G19. As much as I like the M&P, I'm definitely not as accustomed to it yet. Hard to say what direction the brain would fart in given new hardware.
Otherwise, the M&P15 and Rem. 870 shall round-out the gear.

Thanks guys! RE: handgun choice: I did not know what Joe had planned nor what his stages will be like on the 29th, BUT,

-these 3 gun shoots often require you to re-holster the handgun on the clock.

I usually shoot a CZ without a de-cocker (safety is disabled) so I don't feel good about re-holstering it hot. Hence, I use my old Glock.

You could also use a Sig, but I'd suggest de-cocking it before you re-holster during a stage.

Best plan I think is to just use the Glock or M&P - but that's just me. See you on the 29th.

d.

Gunfixr

12-12-07, 12:53

Joe told me at November's shoot, and in the email he sent with the scores that next month will be close and high round counts. Nothing over 30 yds. Lots of movement and weapon transitions, a rifle sling will be necessary.

I'm planning to use my Glock 21, my 870, and Beretta CX4 in .45. My Frankengun AR will be my rifle backup.

blackscot

12-13-07, 05:57

......next month will be close and high round counts. Nothing over 30 yds. Lots of movement and weapon transitions, a rifle sling will be necessary.....

Those 80-yard minipoppers and lollipoppers have always been my nemesis. Guess I won't have to worry-about/practice-for them this time.

I bet he will have lots of those less-than-optimal shooting positions though. Master your yoga, Grossoppah.:cool:

Robb Jensen

12-13-07, 06:15

Those 80-yard minipoppers and lollipoppers have always been my nemesis. Guess I won't have to worry-about/practice-for them this time.

I bet he will have lots of those less-than-optimal shooting positions though. Master your yoga, Grossoppah.:cool:

St. Charles used to do some stuff like that. Tiny blue and red MGM poppers at 150yds, lolli-pops at 125yds just visible over a small berm........tricky stuff. At Shooters (indoor match) one time they set up a shoot target at 25yds with no-shoots at 10-15yds blocking it in the front exposing on the head. Many guys hit the no-shoots because they forgot or didn't know that their rounds would go low at that distance and they had shot at the middle of the targets head instead of right at the top of it.

I'll be shooting my Benelli M1, Glock 17 and depending on the COF maybe my 3gun rifle maybe my SBR.........either way 'Tactical' division.

blackscot

12-14-07, 06:24

......a shoot target at 25yds with no-shoots at 10-15yds blocking it in the front exposing on the head. Many guys hit the no-shoots because they forgot or didn't know that their rounds would go low at that distance and they had shot at the middle of the targets head instead of right at the top of it.

Jim Crews' "holdover" concept. Never seen that used in a match. Would be a great challenge.

I'll be shooting my Benelli M1, Glock 17 and depending on the COF maybe my 3gun rifle maybe my SBR.........either way 'Tactical' division.

Looks like my M&P9 is now well enough vetted to join the M&P15 and Rem. 870. Plan to mothball the G19 for the time being.

TY44934

12-14-07, 10:40

At Shooters (indoor match) one time they set up a shoot target at 25yds with no-shoots at 10-15yds blocking it in the front exposing on the head. Many guys hit the no-shoots because they forgot or didn't know that their rounds would go low at that distance and they had shot at the middle of the targets head instead of right at the top of it.
.

Do you remember the time we had to hit a life-saver candy hanging from a wire at 25 yards? Then there was the time they made you start with a full-auto Thompson SMG, then transition to a rifle, then pistol. Those were the days. Not looking too likely that we will make this month's match. Maybe in 2008.

Douglas

Robb Jensen

12-16-07, 17:13

Do you remember the time we had to hit a life-saver candy hanging from a wire at 25 yards? Then there was the time they made you start with a full-auto Thompson SMG, then transition to a rifle, then pistol. Those were the days. Not looking too likely that we will make this month's match. Maybe in 2008.

Douglas

Yes I remember the life-saver (candy) hanging from the string. The only guy from out group (VA Arms crew) that hit it was Tactical Shooter (aka Pat D) and the f***er hit it using a 4MOA Aimpoint on his Colt!

On the Thompson stage I hit it 2 times out of the burst of 3 rounds.

Pat_D

12-16-07, 19:01

"and the f***er hit it using a 4MOA Aimpoint on his Colt! "

Hey I resemble that remark!

Sterling's matches were alot of fun.

The shot on the lifesaver was a lucky one but I have worked holdovers in training classes before so I knew in theory what I had to do to hit it. It was cool to see it break. GotM4 and Yoda would usually kick my a$$ in those matches but I held my own with my "fairly" stock Colt. Those were good times.

Since it sounds like everything is going to be up close at the December 29th match, I may just shoot my Colt again. I have "upgraded" to a 2MOA Aimpoint so perhaps I'll be a bit more competitive. The last rifle side match I shot at Blackwater, my buddy lent me his high speed 3 gun rifle and some crap HK magazines which promptly rewarded me with a type 3 malfunction. It probably took me 20 seconds to fix the gun :( and I finished pretty far back but I was proud of myself for hanging on and fixing the rifle. My buddy, let's just call him f***er, who lent me the rifle and mags went on to win that rifle side match with a 10.5" SBR and a 4MOA Aimpoint.

Can't wait for the new Giselle (Spelling?) non adjustable triggers to hit the market. If they are as good as everyone says, I will be buying 2 of them.

I don't think I've even used my Benelli once since the last shooters Paradise 3 gun match I attended but I imagine it'll still run.

Pistol wise I think I'll run my Glock 34. GotM4 gave me the remains of an old Safariland 6004 in FDE for a 34/35 and I think I'll piece it back together for this match.

Hope to see everyone there. I sincerely hope it isn't like 10 degrees out since GotM4 will make me go anyway. That f***er ;)

Robb Jensen

12-16-07, 20:19

Hope to see everyone there. I sincerely hope it isn't like 10 degrees out since GotM4 will make me go anyway. That f***er ;)

I don't care if there's a foot of snow on the ground, it's snowing and 10 degrees. We're still shooting ! :D

Gunfixr

12-16-07, 23:01

Got a message from Joe today. He has sent the COF to the webmaster, so it should be up soon. He says its close and personal, with high round counts and lots of transitions. Ammo for 1st stage will need to pass a magnet check (no AP). It'll be cool to meet up with everybody, although I've met Gotm4 already.

koolaid

12-17-07, 00:19

E-mailed Joe yesterday, so now i'm in. Now for what I plan on running, pistol G-17, shotgun, Winchester 1300, rifle, i'm still undecided at this point, either my flattop with ACOG, or my A-2. This will be my first 3-gun since June, so please forgive my rustiness. See everybody there.

blackscot

12-18-07, 06:13

Just now back after being off-line since Friday.

See the Joe email -- am going to respond and reserve my spot now.

Is everyone indicating m4carbine.net affiliation to get squadded together? I plan to.

ETA -- my ML2 is 4 MOA. I feel funny enough not using the iron sights, which I can no longer see with my near-50 eyes......that's 25 years per eye! :eek: :eek:

Robb Jensen

12-18-07, 06:27

Just now back after being off-line since Friday.

See the Joe email -- am going to respond and reserve my spot now.

Is everyone indicating m4carbine.net affiliation to get squadded together? I plan to.

DOH! I forgot to !
But when you do:

Make it, you:
gotm4 (Robb J.)
TacticalShooter (Pat D.)
Dan L.
blaster22 (Jim B.)
George C.
Gunfixr
koolaid

We're all already signed up.

blackscot

12-18-07, 06:29

DOH! I forgot to !
But when you do:

Make it, you:
gotm4 (Robb J.)
TacticalShooter (Pat D.)
Dan L.
blaster22 (Jim B.)
George C.
Gunfixr
koolaid

We're all already signed up.

I'll take care of that right now.;)

ETA -- done!

blackscot

12-18-07, 08:51

Joe replies back that we're all in, except he needs real names for Gunfixr and koolaid. Maybe you guys can email him direct to be sure of inclusion in the "super squad" -- his words -- along with "hanging out with a wild crowd".

I figure I'll be doing everyone a favor by lowering the tail end of the grading curve.....:rolleyes:

TY44934

12-18-07, 17:16

Got a message from Joe today. . . . Ammo for 1st stage will need to pass a magnet check (no AP).

Thanks for adding that. Recently learned that RECENT PRODUCTION Wolf brand .223 has gone back to copper-washed steel jacket (looks like copper but is actually mild steel underneath). RE: Wolf: seen ammo prices recently?

I have some older Wolf in reserve for just such occasions. If you bought Wolf in the last year, best check it beforehand. Good luck gents. d.

luxor

12-18-07, 17:29

I will be there also, it will be nice to put some faces to all of the names. Although i have shot with Rob and a few others already.

See you there.

koolaid

12-19-07, 01:20

He's already got me, Gary B. Might want to add another 1 to the squad, he doesn't post here, but I think he's shooting the match. I need to check with him in the next couple of days.

blackscot

12-19-07, 05:57

He's already got me, Gary B......

Hey Gary. Didn't know you are "koolaid". I remember you from the Cavalier side matches. This BC3G should be great!

koolaid

12-19-07, 09:53

Alright, just got the e-mail back from Joe, i'm on the "super squad" as is a friend of mine. Jim S. He has shot this fomat before but mostly we have been shooting IDPA. I am getting really stoked for this, just hope I don't suck too bad. Been awhile since I did 3-gun (June07 i think) was my last time. see ya"ll then.

Gunfixr

12-20-07, 01:26

Don't feel bad about being rusty. This will only be about my 4th or 5th match anyway, so it will be me lowering the curve. I'll send Joe an email on my name. Actually he knows it already, he just needs to be let know.

Sent Joe the email, now he knows that he already knew Gunfixr.

Robb Jensen

12-20-07, 05:29

Robb J (gotm4)
Pat D (TacticalShooter)
Dan L.
George C.
Gary B (Koolaid)
Randy M (BlackScot)
Jim S
Nate (Gunfixr)
Luis G (Looey)

blackscot

12-20-07, 06:00

......just hope I don't suck too bad. Been awhile since I did 3-gun (June07 i think) was my last time.......

Don't feel bad about being rusty. This will only be about my 4th or 5th match anyway, so it will be me lowering the curve.....

Negative! I've already claimed dibs on having the least expectations.:D

Only two prior matches of any kind for all of 2007 (although they were both 3-gun), and those were back in July and August.

I may have been going to matches for awhile (~15 years....?), but sure-as-hell not much lately. Time to giddyup!

koolaid

12-20-07, 08:27

Rob, just so there is no confusion, the Jim S, that is a friend of mine is not Gunfixr, so I guess that means 2 Jim S's?

Jim B (Blaster22) may not be able to make it, I asked Joe to cap the squad at about 12:

Robb J (gotm4)
Pat D (TacticalShooter)
Dan L.
George C.
Gary B (Koolaid)
Randy M (BlackScot)
Jim S
Luis G (Looey)
Nate

blackscot

12-20-07, 11:39

I'd wish they'd get the COF's posted. I'd like a better idea of ammo requirements. Will need to restock at some point, and would like to avoid Christmas shopper insanity.

Gunfixr

12-20-07, 13:36

Yeah. I keep checking for the COF also.

I was going to say that I'm not Jim S.
I am Nate R.
Joe did tell me today that he has 11 plus me signed up now for the m4 squad. He said he had 29 total already, and is expecting more.

luxor

12-20-07, 19:18

Course of fire is now up on the web site. Bring ammo:D

Gunfixr

12-20-07, 23:44

Course of fire is now up on the web site. Bring ammo:D

What he said, and then some. I haven't really done any shooting on the move, as I have no place to do it, so this should be interesting. It certainly will be fun anyway.

luxor

12-24-07, 13:03

Well i have to do some last minute traveling, so i will not be able to make the match after all.:(

Good Shooting everyone. See you next month.

blackscot

12-26-07, 12:00

Course of fire is now up on the web site......

Just now got a look at this.....

........Bring ammo:D

.......and sure got that right. I'm planning to stop on the way home from work today, to restock and have basically double the amounts he is indicating as minimum.

.......I haven't really done any shooting on the move, as I have no place to do it, so this should be interesting. It certainly will be fun anyway.

Ability to shoot-n-move will be a big factor in this match.

A lot of people have a tendancy to want to rush the targets, as if getting closer quicker will gain some advantage (or maybe it's just the adrenaline taking over), but which usually just makes things more difficult. It works better to instead resist the impulse and take small, smooth, controlled steps. Timing your shots with your steps can help too if the design of the stage allows it. You need to know at what point in your step you can make the steadiest sight alignment. I seem to do best shooting while in mid-step, whereas others like better having both feet on the ground. A couple of examples from last summer's Rivanna Weapons Master:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/rivanna07/755c.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/rivanna07/6f61.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/rivanna07/fbbe.jpg

I haven't had to tackle this for quite awhile. Hopefully I can somehow get in a quick practice session before Sat. I'm also wondering if the two ports on Stage 2 are going to be so close to the ground to require any.....non-traditional.....shooting stances (Joe has gone fairly extreme along these lines in the past).

Well i have to do some last minute traveling, so i will not be able to make the match after all.:( .....

Bummer. You'll be missed.......

Gunfixr

12-26-07, 15:50

Got an email from Joe today. We're all squadded together, and he's calling the match full. He say the weather forecast for Sat. is 30% chance of rain and high of 60. If that happens, it'll be a good day to shoot, minus the rain.

Yeah, I realize that shooting on the move will be important to this shoot, but I have no place to practice it. I have done some moving around the house with an unloaded rifle, focused on something on the wall, trying to keep the sights steady while moving. I've done both going straight at something and across in front of it. Not too much movement, I think I can hit decently if I don't rush it and keep my focus. I figure to not try anything fancy and just move nice and slow, just enough to stay moving. I know I don't have to be too close, the bullets will get there, just steady. I don't do this to win anyway, it's fun and gets me trigger time. It'll be good live fire practice.

blackscot

12-27-07, 06:14

......I have done some moving around the house with an unloaded rifle, focused on something on the wall, trying to keep the sights steady while moving.......

I never thought of dry-fire practice with movement. What a great idea! I'll be trying some of that prior to the match.

......I can hit decently if I don't rush it and keep my focus. I figure to not try anything fancy and just move nice and slow, just enough to stay moving. I know I don't have to be too close, the bullets will get there, just steady.......

That is what seems to work best for me.

......I don't do this to win anyway, it's fun and gets me trigger time.......

As for me always. "Any shooting is good shooting.":D

Gunfixr

12-27-07, 21:07

Cool, Blackscot, I hope it works for you. With the price of ammo nowadays, I'm surprised everybody's not doing it.

I am so stoked for this match. Got my new modified Chicom chest rig ready. Nothing else was deep enough to hold the mags. Bag is already packed.

Wayne G.

12-27-07, 22:13

I just got an e-mail from Joe confirming that I'm with the "m4carbine" group for Saturday's match.

Looking forward to meeting everyone!

koolaid

12-29-07, 17:45

Boy was the match a blast! Sorry that Jim and I bailed on you guys to go to squad 2, but somebody had to even everything out. The nasty weather made it even more interesting, mud, rain, everything you could hope for. Things learned,
1 You will not ever fight in perfect weather conditions
2 I need more work with the shotgun
3 I need more work with really small targets

All in all a really good time with good company. Maybe everything will line up perfectly again and we can all get together again for a match.

Wayne G.

12-29-07, 19:53

I need more work with the shotgun

Me too, especially with reloads.

Still, I had a blast, mud and all.

Great meeting you guys. Can't wait til next time.

Robb Jensen

12-30-07, 06:26

Didn't get very many pics but here's some of our squad shooting stage 1.
I had a lot of fun, great match and I'm looking forward to next months match.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robbrifle3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/danrifle-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/patrifle.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/luisrifle-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/douglasrifle.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/douglasrifle.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/randyrifle.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/naterifle.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/othershooter2rifle.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/othershooterrifle.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/othershooter3rifle.jpg

Pat_D

12-30-07, 07:19

It was great shooting with everyone yesterday and meeting some new friends. Quite a good match actually with 3 very challenging stages. It was my first time at Black Creek but I am sure not my last.

I was happy that my "gotM4 built" SBR ran without fail even though it got pretty wet out. Still not sure how it will run with a suppressor on it but I guess I'll find out next week.

Thanks to gotM4 for filling in as photographer. Looks like the pic he posted of himself is a bit fuzzy. I'm sorry to say that I took that photo but hey, he must have been moving so fast the auto-focus couldn't keep up ;)

Lastly, I really do need some more practice with my shotgun. I hadn't picked it up in probably a year and it showed.

Robb Jensen

12-30-07, 07:39

:D

Here's one from where I wasn't moving ! I think a M203 would have done a better job. I kept forgetting that D's count as misses. :eek:

I should have shot better and slower more deliberately.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robbrifle2-1.jpg

Rmplstlskn

12-30-07, 10:08

:D
I kept forgetting that D's count as misses. :eek:

What are "D's"?

I was hoping to drive over and watch you guys but daughter has been sick since Wednesday and I think I have had only 2 hours sleep each day so far... :o I'm delirious.... but has given lots of thread reading time...

Look's like a lot of fun for all...

Rmpl

Rmplstlskn

12-30-07, 10:11

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/naterifle.jpg

That is a tricked out Storm.... How did it perform for the guy? Any failures? Fast handling compared to AR's?

Rmpl

Robb Jensen

12-30-07, 10:30

That is a tricked out Storm.... How did it perform for the guy? Any failures? Fast handling compared to AR's?

Rmpl

That's member Gunfixr (aka Nate), it did have a fail to extractor or something on Stage 1. It's a .45ACP Beretta Storm with 19 or 20 round mags. He made his own 19-20 round mags, pretty cool.

D's are D hits on the IPSC targets. A's, C's and any head hit at BlackCreek are scored as hits. D's are misses just as if you completely missed the target and add 10sec to your time.

Here's what an IPSC target looks like on page 60 http://www.uspsa.com/rules/2008HandgunRulesindexed.pdf.

Here's a nice printable (on 8.5" x 11" paper) 1/3 size IPSC targets.
http://glockfaq.com/targets/competition/ipsc.pdf

BigTinVA

12-30-07, 16:17

I'm surprised to see all those Glocks in the photos. I thought everyone gave up on em in favor of the M&P's. :D

Robb Jensen

12-30-07, 16:18

I'm surprised to see all those Glocks in the photos. I thought everyone gave up on em in favor of the M&P's. :D

Some did, some enjoy both designs. :D

Pat_D

12-30-07, 17:12

Sup Tim? That you in your avatar with the curlers in your hair? Sexy!

You missed a very good 3 gun match.

Me, I've never drunk (drank?) the M&P koolaid. Personally I'm way to busy drinking the Colt koolaid :D

My Glock ran great yesterday even wet with some mud on the mags. While the M&P might be a fantastic gun, when the bad weather came it seemed everyone, even regular M&P shooters pulled out their Glocks.

Tell you one thing I learned yesterday. Pump shotguns are not bulletproof. I saw more guys struggling with their pumps yesterday than I thought I would ever see. All the semi-autos I saw seemed to run fine.

BigTinVA

12-30-07, 17:20

While the M&P might be a fantastic gun, when the bad weather came it seemed everyone, even regular M&P shooters pulled out their Glocks.
That's what I was thinking. I'm not hating, just making an observation, thats all.

BigTinVA

12-30-07, 17:25

I couldn't make the match yesterday...I had to get up to DC for the "gun buy back" thing that they had going on. I got $50.00 for a junk RG .22 revolver and went straight to the gun store and picked up a new Ruger 22/45 for plinking. :)

Gunfixr

12-31-07, 02:20

That's my Storm in .45acp, as Gotm4 noted. The barrel has been shortened slightly so that the end of the compensator I custom made is at 16.5". I made the scope rail and VFG rail. I Duracoated the camo pattern on it. I also made the 18 round mags for it using factory 8 round mags as a base. I had one failure to feed for the day, and one failure to extract a loaded round. The 18rd. mags are still in testing, the only ones I KNOW to work are 16rd mags. I made some 20s, but they fail to feed a bit too regularly for my taste. I believe the failure to extract was due to residue left in the chamber from tthe steady diet of Wolf ammo it has been getting. Occaisionally I have to scrape this residue out, and I hadn't done that recently. I looked at the extractor and it's fine.
As far as handling goes, it's a little quicker than my AR carbine, as it's shorter. I does recoil just a little stiffer, though, especially as I loaded +p rounds for the shoot to make sure the steel would fall. The only problem is that .45acp accuracy starts falling pretty bad past 60 or 70 yds., so I don't usually take it as there is usually a stage that is just too far for it. Maybe one day I will develop a load that will work, perhaps using 200gr. bullets. I'm afraid they wouldn't take down rifle steel, though.
Anyway here's some pics, but they are before the optic:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/CX4Beretta009.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/CX4Beretta008.jpg

Although I shot the Glock, I'm thinking of going back to my 1911, as I just can't seem to hit as well with the Glock. I haven't had it all that long and I guess I just haven't really gotten used to it yet.

Pat_D

01-01-08, 20:35

For those who didn't get the e-mail, here are the scores. I'm not sure how well they'll print here as I copied and pasted them from an e-mail

BLACK CREEK 3 GUN MATCH RESULTS - DECEMBER 29, 2007

OVERALL MATCH STAGE 1 STAGE 2 STAGE 3
SHOOTER DIV TOTAL TIME TOTAL T STEEL PROC FTE NS TIME TOTAL T STEEL PROC FTE NS TIME TOTAL T STEEL PROC FTE NS
Neal Smith TAC 248.03 52.4 57.4 5 91.06 96.06 5 94.57 94.57
Matt Hood TAC 251.94 62.65 62.65 107.75 107.75 81.54 81.54
Doug Johnson TAC 268.83 61 86 15 10 85.4 125.4 30 10 57.43 57.43
Joe Fallis TAC 274.87 53.88 58.88 5 95.71 110.71 15 70.28 105.3 35
Matt Wilde LIM 283.25 47.16 47.16 145.51 150.51 5 75.58 85.58 10
Pat DeSarno TAC 290.85 63.05 73.05 10 130.85 140.85 10 76.95 76.95
Jim Jones TAC 306.51 51.8 56.8 5 71.77 86.77 15 147.94 162.9 15
Ron Swindell OPN 306.92 89.34 99.34 10 92.99 97.99 5 99.59 109.6 10
Donnie Ward TAC 314.59 96.83 101.83 5 137.27 142.27 5 65.49 70.49 5
Steve Cahill LIM 323.04 70.24 70.24 156.02 156.02 91.78 96.78 5
Jonathan Cruz TAC 324.16 64.98 79.98 15 64.32 79.32 15 139.86 164.9 10 5 10
Darin Fox TAC 329.75 88.82 93.82 5 133.55 138.55 5 87.38 97.38 10
Robb Jensen TAC 333.82 60.73 90.73 20 10 136.82 156.82 10 10 61.27 86.27 25
Luis Gines TAC 342.01 58.97 73.97 5 10 165.46 165.46 67.58 102.6 35
George Conlon TAC 373.6 64.76 74.76 10 174.59 174.59 104.25 124.3 20
Randy McFarland TAC 373.7 74.28 89.28 5 10 145.06 170.06 15 10 99.36 114.4 15
Kenneth Moore OPN 377.67 60.52 125.52 55 10 152.36 167.36 10 5 79.79 84.79 5
Larry Baum TAC 401.21 82.42 87.42 5 104.11 104.11 199.68 209.7 10
Audie Bradford OPN 406.21 76.32 96.32 20 140.7 160.7 15 5 94.19 149.2 45 10
Dan Chandler TAC 414.96 85.6 105.6 20 150.31 150.31 134.05 159.1 5 20
Brian Gale TAC 466.81 84.66 94.66 10 217.1 242.1 15 10 125.05 130.1 5
Wayne Gerringer LIM 490.49 94.17 104.17 10 224.62 249.62 15 10 136.7 136.7
Tim Kines TAC 492.05 90.92 105.92 15 218.22 228.22 10 127.91 157.9 30
Elaine Chandler TAC 504.12 110.65 110.65 209.56 224.56 15 153.91 168.9 15
Mark Galvin HE 512.88 61.47 61.47 293.71 303.71 10 142.7 147.7 5
Mike Borros TAC 512.97 84.77 139.77 35 20 97.92 122.92 25 200.28 250.3 40 10
Jim Shafer LIM 515.59 94.48 139.48 15 30 154.55 154.55 201.56 221.6 15 5
Gary Bruce TAC 605.94 89.74 89.74 154.6 174.6 20 321.6 341.6 15 5
Charles Kines TAC 684.95 142.42 167.42 25 233.49 268.49 35 164.04 249 65 20
Nate Rayles TAC 722.72 128.81 183.81 35 20 294.09 364.09 60 10 129.82 174.8 25 20
Mark Johnson TAC 761.27 137.6 152.6 15 353.97 378.97 20 5 224.7 229.7 5

Dan Lipscomb TAC #VALUE! 58.45 63.45 5 DNF ###### 82.59 87.59 5

blackscot

01-02-08, 07:06

Hey guys -- just now back on-line after being off since last Thursday.

What a great match ! ! ! :D :D :D Sure looked like everyone enjoyed themselves despite the weather, and I hope thought it was worth the required travel. Joe puts on the best show I know of.

The worst rain was during set-up, and I'm glad it was mostly moving out by the time we got to shooting. The following day here was a near all-day'er, so I'm also glad we weren't out in that.

I also really enjoyed shooting with you guys. A more skilled, experienced, and congenial squad couldn't be asked for. Also thanks to gotm4 for the pics. Sounds like some are planning to make the Jan. match -- as am I if nothing else gets in the way -- so we should try to coordinate again here.

Looks like I came out square in the middle overall -- and likewise near-to-middle on the individual stages -- which for me is typical and pretty much satisfactory. Less-than-optimal conditions are always a good way to test both shooter and equipment. My few misses on paper were frustrating, along with taking longer than needed to clear the many plates. Mostly though I felt really sloppy on the shotgun. The large round count and many required reloads left me losing track of how many shells were left in the gun and number needed to get fully refilled. I was doing pretty well on the swinger until I missed the critical "allyoomph" shot to get it to roll over. Timed the shot right, but could see it hit the dirt high of the plate. :eek: I was not going to then reload to try all over again. My hat off to those that rolled it! Looks like we'll all get another chance this month. Hope to see you then.

Gunfixr

01-02-08, 13:57

If I can break away, I'll come to the Jan. match also. I'll probably bring my AR carbine this time as Joe told me stage ! would be back to longer range and small targets. My project shorty FAL might be ready, but I don't know about ammo. I may even get some sort of choke on the shotgun, I'll have to to get that flipper around. I don't know whether I'm going to get tubes in it, or go with a Polychoke type setup. I think the bulbulous looking Polychoke setup looks kind of weird, but it is real simple and no tubes and wrench to keep up with. We'll see. I am gonna put some sights on it, so I'll be looking over the Polychoke if I go that route.

TY44934

01-02-08, 17:24

What a great match! Thanks so much to all those on Squad 3 for, just everything - great attitude, everyone pitching in to paste & set steel, take pictures (and post them), etc. It was really generous of Luis & Robb to give me a lift down from occupied NOVA (thanks guys!).

Those who pulled out fearing the weather missed a good one - although I did have to let my gunbag dry out overnight & I used the dreaded WD-40 to displace water (that is what its made to do) on my guns. I even had to break down the 40 round AR mag since its cheap steel & it would otherwise rust. Lucky we were not out there long enough for my ammo to rust too! (Ruski wolf steel cases w/ the old copper jacketed bullets - works up close anyway).

RE Glock: I am a CZ nut. But, I know that Joe usually requires re-holstering a gun on the clock while its loaded. I trust my Glock for that.

True, you can also simply switch on the safety on with a CZ; but I guess I would probably miss the safety in the heat of competition and I don't want to take that chance. So, despite the fact that I don't shoot a glock very well, I shot my old G17.

Plus, from all the handguns I have seen in use, the Glock has the MOST dirt-resistant magazine of all, hands down. While I like my CZs & SV, I follow the rule that: if it touches the ground, it comes apart for cleaning. Glock mags I simply shake off the dirt & load them back up.

Now, if I can only learn to read (and understand) the stage descriptions (duh!). :confused:

Pat_D

01-02-08, 22:19

Congrats on taking 3rd overall Doug. It was a pleasure shooting with you!

blackscot

01-03-08, 06:23

.......I may even get some sort of choke on the shotgun.......

I am looking into getting some kind of semi-auto, possibly before the next match. I like the performance I am now getting from the 870, other than the recoil. The next match will probably include slugs, which are especially brutal in the pump. Suggestions for a SA are welcomed. One really nice looking candidate I've found is here: http://www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/1187.htm I would be considering the 18-inch IC rifle-sighted with 2-round mag extension.

......the Glock has the MOST dirt-resistant magazine of all, hands down.......Glock mags I simply shake off the dirt & load them back up.......

Well I had to try the M&P9 in at least one match, which worked out just fine. I'm now back to carrying my G19 though, which I'll be to bringing to the next match. I recognize the M&P's many advanced features, but do wish they had included a more mid-size version in the line-up. The G19 is a lot easier for me to carry, and as the "Commander" of Glocks just seems more "me".

glockshooter

01-04-08, 00:02

blackscot

01-04-08, 06:16

If you are looking for a shotgun specifically for 3gun you probably want a longer barrel/larger mag capacity. You will be getting beat by equipment if you don't have a gun that hold at least 8 rounds in the mag tube. You should look at the Remington 1100 tactical/ comp. master, Winchester/FN auos, Benellis

Matt Hood

Max ammo capacity is a good point. I really like the Remington rifle sights that my current 870 has along with the possible-buy 11-87, but which don't appear to come on the 1100 Tactical according to here: http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_1100/model_1100_tactical.asp I know from experience that low-slung front bead won't work for me.

I also understand the Benellis are recoil/non-gas activated, which isn't going to address my issue there.

I have heard good things about the Winchester/FN platform. Winchester's web site doesn't seem to have complete information -- I can't find anything there configured for non-hunting. The set-up on the FN model looks real good here: http://www.fnhusa.com/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF005&gid=FNG002&mid=FNM0019 The irons appear high enough to give me a correct cheek weld, but I doubt I would be using that optic rail anytime soon. Does Winchester have any kind of similar version?

Robb Jensen

01-04-08, 08:49

blackscot

01-04-08, 10:26

Thanks Robb. I'm going to take a quick look-around here locally after work today and see what folks have in-stock, just to get a feel (famous last words....??? :rolleyes: ).

TY44934

01-04-08, 11:31

The FN SLP would be a good choice, it's essentially a Winchester SX2. Douglas Johnson was shooting a SX2. It's a gas gun and is probably the best shotguns for 3gun.
There's a brand new one on Gun Broker right now with a buy it now price of $750

Another good choice would be a Benelli M2 with Comfortech stock. It takes a lot of felt recoil out of the gun with slugs. Member Themadhatter here has a 12ga. Benelli SuperNova with a Comfortech stock and we were shooting 3.5" slugs last year and to me it felt like shooting reduced power 2.75" slugs out of my Benelli M1.

I've owned my SX2 MK-I since 2001. I've never broken anything on it. I paid $775 & got the free carrying case, leather jacket & hat (still have the hat). I understand my Winchester's parts are generally interchangeable with the FN and the Browning Gold since they are all owned by the same company. The Browning does come with some sort of trip lever that automaticaly closes the bolt if you drop a shell in the loading port. Otherwise its identical.

I put about 2000 rounds through it and then lent it to a friend for a Blackwater shotgun course he took. He put 1000 rounds through it in a week during the class. Turns out that his classmates were all LEOs and they had a lot of left over slugs after the course so they just gave him boxes & boxes of slugs - which they shot up on the last day. The FN & Winchester SX2 are tough guns that don't break. The Winchester with the raised sights (like the FN) is called: "Super X-2 Mk-II." Virginia Arms could probably locate one for you if you don't see it on Winchester's site.

Strangely, the only ammo my winchester won't tolerate is: winchester. But, Joe's 1100 had issues with Winchester ammo last match. I think winchester might have switched to plated aluminum for the base of their shells. Gun runs great on everything else, including Remington "gun club" and bulk pack Federal. Like all gas-operated shotguns, the SX2 does not recoil much at all (good for fast follow up shots).

Since its a US made gun, you are allowed to add a pistol grip stock without worrying about US "compliance parts." I added the SpeedFeed pistolgrip stock for a Remington 1100 to my SX2 Winchester - but it took some work to make it fit. Hopefully someone will start making a pistol grip stock just for the FN/Winchester/Browning Gold.

Douglas

blackscot

01-04-08, 11:48

Thanks Douglas. I just keep hearing good things about the SX2 series, and your description and experience -- and certainly your performance last Sat (!!! :eek: ) -- are making a persuasive case.

I'll be seeing what's immediately available nearby soon after lunch.

novashooter

01-04-08, 12:47

I have owned this shotgun for about a year now. I actually bought it from VA Arms for somewhere around $800 or so. I LOVE the FN-It eats every type of load I put in it and then asks for more!!!

It can be a little testy with Winchester AA's, which is fine with me. I would rather buy the cheap Rio's anyway. I have put approx 1,500 rounds through it (birdshot, slugs and Double 00) and it has NEVER malfunctioned.

I started shooting 3G last year and everyone told me buy a Benellli!!! I shot a couple and didnt really like them (I know I will get flamed for that one). The M2 just seemed to beat me up a little and my follow up shots with the FN were faster. Besides I have had to do nothing with the FN to make it race ready. It was ready to go out of the box with 8+1 and flip up slug slights.

I shot FortBenning 3G last month and while more guys shot the Benelli there was a large presence of FN's and Winchester. Hell Daniel Horner from the AMU runs a FN in competition and he is one the top ranked in the sport right now!!

I live in No VA so if you want to run a few rounds through mine you are more than welcome to give her a try.

Jayson Smith

rhino

01-04-08, 13:03

I've been shooting 3-gun with Remington 1100s for about 13 years. I love them, but if and when I ever get a new shotgun, it will be a Winchester SX2 Practical MkI or the FN equivalent.

Gunfixr

01-14-08, 13:13

Are any of you guys planning on coming to this months match? Just checked the website, COF isn't up yet. I think I will be able to make it.
Joe's promised that the shotgun flipper will be back.

I'm gonna have my shotgun choked by then. I found a 6" piece of barrel from something I cut off for somebody awhile back still on the bench. It takes Remchoke tubes, and is even ported. I'm gonna clip a couple inches off my barrel and put this end on it, then I'll have choke tubes without having to buy a barrel. It's even got a Modified tube in it now.
I'll probably bring my Frankengun AR. The shorty FAL might be done, but I won't have time to test it. Plus I got .223 I don't mind shooting, unlike cleaning out some of my .308 stash, which I am loathe to do. Once I'm loading .308, I won't mind so much.

Robb Jensen

01-14-08, 13:35

Gunfixr

01-14-08, 13:48

Yeah I'll be there. You're Hack-Fu Gunwerkes at it's finest! :p

I try. I've done something like this once before, about 7 or 8 yrs ago. I had an old pump that had been chopped and wanted a choke on it. I made from scatch a 3" section of barrel bored with a Modified choke and welded it onto the end and then dressed everything and reblued. Looks great, works great, still have the shotgun. So, I've done this before and worked out the details. Maybe I'll even have the barrel reDuracoated in time.

blackscot

01-14-08, 14:18

Hopefully I'll make it (need to get Dan's raincoat back to him).

Great plans Nate ! ! ! I plan shotty-wise to just stay with the 870 for now though. Did a lot of looking around at SA's, but got overwhelmed by choices (and price tags! :eek: ). I did end up getting one of those newfangled "R3" butt-pads on the 870, but haven't yet tried it out to see if there's any real difference from the factory-stock item.

Wayne G.

01-14-08, 17:02

I plan on being there too!

Look forward to seeing you guys.

BTW, did you guys get an e-mail yet regarding registration?

blackscot

01-15-08, 05:56

Might not see any emails, COF's, etc. for a couple more days yet. It's usually within a week of the match that this stuff comes out.

Gunfixr

01-15-08, 12:25

I haven't got any emails, but like Blackscot said, we may not. Joe told me last month that I was on the list, so probably we all are, meaning that we are probably registered unless we say we're not coming. I know I sent Joe an email last month almost two weeks prior to the match and he said I was already registered.

I know the COF comes out sometime 1 to 2 weeks prior, so I was just looking. I'll check again later.
That's my 870 I'm talking about. It currently has a cylinder bore barrel. I hit the flipper solidly 5 or 6 times and it didn't even move. A couple of the knockdown plates I had trouble with also. The month before, we were shooting slugs at 80 yds, so all I had was poor accuracy.

blackscot

01-16-08, 06:17

.......That's my 870 I'm talking about. It currently has a cylinder bore barrel. I hit the flipper solidly 5 or 6 times and it didn't even move. A couple of the knockdown plates I had trouble with also. The month before, we were shooting slugs at 80 yds, so all I had was poor accuracy.

My first time at BC3G I was using my 870 with the original factory 18-inch cylinder-choke barrel, and only light (1 oz. #8) field loads.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/870/factory_stock.jpg

One stage had us shotgunning the Texas star from about 10 yards. I sprayed shell after shell at the thing, which just sat there contemptuously laughing back at me. :eek: :confused: :mad:

I consulted with Joe after the match, after which I upgraded the 870 with a 20-inch improved-cylinder barrel, through which I have been using heavier loads (1 & 1/8 to 1 & 1/4 oz, and preferrably #6). There have since been zero problems with adequate knock-down.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/870/20-inch_profile-1.jpg

I also added the sling, and replaced the 2-round mag extension with a 3-round unit, which gotm4 was able to refinish for me to exactly match the rest of the gun.:D

As far as slugs, I think intrinsic accuracy on the original barrel was probably fine, but that plain-bead front sight made a proper mount on the gun impossible. The higher rifle sights on the new barrel allow me a comfortable cheek weld and precise enough alignment to never miss so long as I don't flinch.

Gunfixr

01-17-08, 00:26

Blackscot, my 870 is the same model you purchased exactly, I just Duracoated it the gray color and added the sling and sidesaddles and a Meprolight tritium bead. I don't currently have the $$$ to spare for a barrel, so I'm doing the hack-fu thing. I got the extension welded on Monday and Duracoated it Wed. morning. It looks good. As soon as it's cured enough to assemble, I'll get a pic of it up. The barrel piece had a Modified choke tube in it already, so I'm sure the targets will go down. The barrel is also ported, which will make this gun unique. The barrel is now 21.5", up from its original length of 18.5". The barrel piece was from a vent ribbed barrel, so I cut the end of the rib at the muzzle into a sight ramp. I will put my tritium bead back on for now, but I have the option to dovetail a sight into it and add a rear sight if I wish later. I could get a longer mag tube, but I don't know if I want to spend $50 just to get one more round in the gun. I know, I'm a cheapskate. But I got this shotgun for HD, not 3-gun, so it's pulling double duty.
I'm going to polish the chamber also. I can't feel it, but there is a ring in the finish of the rear part of the chamber, and fired shells keep sticking in it and can't be extracted.

blackscot

01-17-08, 05:42

.........I just Duracoated it the gray color and added the sling and sidesaddles and a Meprolight tritium bead.........The barrel is also ported, which will make this gun unique..........The barrel piece was from a vent ribbed barrel, so I cut the end of the rib at the muzzle into a sight ramp. I will put my tritium bead back on for now, but I have the option to dovetail a sight into it and add a rear sight if I wish later..........

That all sounds way-cool. Really clever converting the rib to a ramp. Can't wait to see it in-action!

Wayne G.

01-17-08, 19:21

I just got an e-mail that the next match is set. I replied and asked to be placed with the "m4" group if that was being done again.

Gunfixr

01-19-08, 00:17

Yep, I just got an email from Joe also. I said the same thing about an M4 group.
Got another reply from Joe today saying he would see me there.

Blackscot, I'll have to post a pic this weekend. I got it Duracoated and the sight back on. I need to finish polishing the bore at the joint and then I can put it back together. I'll test it next week if I get a chance to see where it's hitting.

blackscot

01-19-08, 09:16

Just now emailed Joe for my slot.

COF's are not yet posted, but from the match announcement it sounds like my sticking with the 870 will present a challenge in some form. I've not yet entirely given up on getting some kind of semi-auto shotty, although at this point probably not in time for this match. I may be bugging any of you with gas-op'd guns to see what you're using, how you like it, etc.

Last month's stages were a little different from the usual, being entirely close-up. The COF's for this time may be worth some discussion here once they're posted.

Gunfixr

01-21-08, 00:39

Got a couple pics of the 870 barrel after welding on the extension piece with choke tubes and re-Duracoating. The weld joint is about 1/2" back from the ports.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/CustomL1A1006.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/CustomL1A1005.jpg

I'm gonna test it this week to see where the pattern is hitting. If it's off, I'll tweak the barrel in to align it.

blackscot

01-22-08, 06:36

Another flawless Gunfixr project!

COF's are up! Some differences from last time:

Stage 1 goes back to 80 yards. The small steel is very challenging from here. Rifle and shotgun (minimum 6 slugs :( ), with pistol apparently only as back-up.

Stage 2 Mano-A-Mano, and with all three guns. Interesting, and totally new to me. Joe is always thinking of something different. :rolleyes:

Stage 3 again rifle and shotgun, with pistol as back-up only. TWO rotations required from the flipper ! ! ! :eek: :( Also a big mess-o' plates -- my shoulder's hurtin' already.....

TY44934

01-22-08, 11:56

Stage 3 . TWO rotations required from the flipper ! ! ! :eek: :( Also a big mess-o' plates -- my shoulder's hurtin' already.....

That flipper can be a challenge. I am thinking that a combination of a tighter choke (maybe even full) and high brass #6s or even #4s (plus the right technique) are required. I'll have to wait for the Feb. match though; I can't make it this month; renovations are starting on Sunday & we are moving out for 3 weeks. Good luck to all!

PS - Gunfixr - that project looks great!

Gunfixr

01-23-08, 00:18

Took the shotgun to the range today (Tues). Used the same loads I take to the match at 25 yds. Pattern is a little low and left, debating on whether I can bend the barrel a little to bring it in and get back to test or not. Right now I know where it hits. Have no idea where slugs will go, and not sure of time to see. Action is still sticking and going to tear it down to find the problem. I deem this more important anyway, I can eat the misses with the slugs if I have to. I don't have another shotgun, so this I will fix. I'll have the AR, but my short FAL is almost ready. Blackscot, you're gonna love that if you like FALs. Maybe I'll bring it for you to check out if you want.

Sorry to hear about that, TY44934. What a bummer. Looks like cold and maybe wet, so depending on how you feel about that.

Wayne G.

01-23-08, 04:13

Looks like I'm out too. Maybe next time. Hope everyone has a blast!!!

blackscot

01-23-08, 06:03

......my short FAL is almost ready. Blackscot, you're gonna love that if you like FALs. Maybe I'll bring it for you to check out if you want......

I've always admired them more from a distance. Never owned one, although member Templar has let me shoot his a couple of times. Always thought them among the cooler looking guns -- sort-of the AK of .308's. Some of those DSA models are downright boss! :cool:

......Have no idea where slugs will go......I can eat the misses with the slugs if I have to.......

Did I read correctly that the 6 slugs are to be shot OFFHAND??? :eek: :confused:

Although the title has always been reserved for my wife, I think after this match I shall be known as "Misses" Blackscot.

Robb Jensen

01-23-08, 06:35

Did I read correctly that the 6 slugs are to be shot OFFHAND??? :eek: :confused:

That's not that bad. I shot this one in 2006 at the Area 7 3gun championship.......24 slugs, at least it was my last longgun stage! I was 34th out of 72 shooters on that stage, not terrible but not great. I was 14th out of 56 shooters overall in Tactical. :D

http://www.uspsa.org/results/2006/Area_7_Three_Gun_Championship/Stages/LivingDead.pdf

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/3gunarea7meshotgun.jpg

blackscot

01-23-08, 09:26

That's not that bad. I shot this one in 2006 at the Area 7 3gun championship.......24 slugs, at least it was my last longgun stage! I was 34th out of 72 shooters on that stage, not terrible but not great. I was 14th out of 56 shooters overall in Tactical. :D

Oh, I was taking "offhand" to mean weak-side. Does Joe mean "freestyle" then?

That target just to the right of you looks......interesting.:rolleyes:

Gunfixr

01-23-08, 22:32

Blackscot, I'm not sure what you mean by "freestyle", but offhand is to mean standing unsupported, not weak side. You can't kneel or go prone (prone would be brutal).
We did this same thing 2 months ago. The same two targets at 80 yds to be hit 3 times each with slugs. I tested at 50 yds the week prior and was fine, but at 80 it went wild. Didn't score any hits for like 8 rounds, just gave up as we had only 199 seconds to shoot the stage.
This time is the same, a 199 second time limit.

blackscot

01-24-08, 05:56

OK, I've done the 80-yard "freestanding" slug shots there before, and can actually make the hit if I try really hard to just p-r-e-s-s the trigger. Like you say though, it can be a major time gobbler.

My range (Cavalier) has some similar sized steel at 100 yards, which is even more tough to hit with slugs. I should probably try to get in a few practice shots before the match.

We also have an 8-inch plate at 100 yards that I should practice on with the rifle. Joe's 80-yard "small steel" has been a major road block for me at prior matches.

Gunfixr

01-24-08, 21:20

Well, got the shotgun sticking problem fixed. There were very sharp hard edges on the bolt locking lug and the edges of the recess it moves in. I stoned the edges off and polished everything that rubs during unlocking. Works great now. It would only hang up aftger firing, not after just racking or even dryfiring. I think the pressure against the sharp edges that needed to slide was the problem.
I'm not going to worry too much about hitting the steel with the slugs. My shotgun is just not currently set up for that kind of accuracy. Maybe in the next month or so I'll get some sights on it. Or not. I'll just shoot 3 shots at each, and if I don't hit either I'll move on and take the misses. I won't have a failure to engage anyway.
Pretty much packed and ready to go.

blackscot

01-25-08, 06:06

That flipper can be a challenge......high brass #6s or even #4s (plus the right technique) are required.....

I picked up a 10-round box of 1-5/8 oz. #6 turkey loads yesterday. I'll fill the gun with it to start Stage 3, either flip the damn thing or not, and then refill with field loads to clear the plates before transitioning to rifle.

"Turkey" load may be the appropriate term, after whatever performance I exhibit tomorrow.:p

See you all there!

Robb Jensen

01-25-08, 06:25

I picked up a 10-round box of 1-5/8 oz. #6 turkey loads yesterday. I'll fill the gun with it to start Stage 3, either flip the damn thing or not, and then refill with field loads to clear the plates before transitioning to rifle.

"Turkey" load may be the appropriate term, after whatever performance I exhibit tomorrow.:p

See you all there!

I have exactly 8 rounds of Remington Express Long Range 12ga 2 3/4" 3 3/4 DRAM 1 1/4oz No. 6 shotgun shells I used to use for squirrel hunting. I'm going to shoot these for the 'flipper' and use my light modified Briley choke. If I can't flip it with these 8, I'll move on. The mano y mano will be fun! :D

Gunfixr

01-25-08, 13:19

That's my plan as well. Same plan for the slugs on stage 1.
Just don't forget we're supposed to flip it twice, but it was proved last month it could be flipped with 4 shots, and he's coming back this month to show us again.

See you guys on the morrow.

Robb Jensen

01-27-08, 09:04

Woohoo, I placed 4th in Tactical and 5th overall for the match!

The match was great fun! Joe F. puts on a damn good match. If you're in VA you should shoot this match. Can't wait till next months match. :)

Here's some pics that our very own themadhatter took using my camera.

The beloved spinner! ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/spinner.jpg

Me and friend Doug shooting the man vs. man stage (he beat me by 6sec.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/meanddougmanonman.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robbshotgun.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robbrifle-3.jpg

Co-worker and friend Pete shooting is pimped FN FS2000. He did an awesome job with the DuraCoat.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/peterifle.jpg

Dan (friend and Team Va Arms member).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/danrifle-2.jpg

Jim (co-worker) and friend George on man vs. man.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/jimandgeorgemanonman.jpg

Jim shooting the big rifle stage.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/JBrifle.jpg

themadhatter

01-27-08, 09:38

9x19

01-27-08, 09:43

nice:D

Great photos! Thanks for standing in for me.

cavscout

01-27-08, 16:07

The match was a lot of fun and another good learning experience. Thanks for draggin' me out of bed and making me go, guys.

Anybody wanna' buy a single-shot Benelli M1 w/sidesaddle?

blackscot

01-28-08, 06:36

Congrats Robb ! ! !

Well I'm just amazed I didn't show up even farther down the list, considering my Sudden Death-by-Stop-Popper on the man-on-man Stage 2. I didn't know that once running the shotgun dry you were allowed to make-up the SG-designated targets with pistol. That might have prevented my little accident. :rolleyes:

Looks like I came in around middle on the long-range Stage 1, but I'm not sure the score is correct. I thought Doug said I'd gone over the 199 limit. Wonder if that "7" was misread and is actually a "9". If so, the extra 20 seconds would knock me down by 4 places on that stage, and by 2 places in the overall standing. Still amazed I hit any of that smallest steel with a 4 MOA Aimpoint. May look into adding some kind of magnifier.

I also rank among the Un-Swung on Stage 3, with score there to reflect. Wasn't it amazing how well those Saiga12's did on the swinger ??? !!! Much more "striking" than just about anything else being used. Does anyone know -- were those guys using some special load and/or barrel configuration? Or is there something particular to the Saiga? I know Ron Swindell had one of them. Who were the father-and-son team with the others?

Despite the barrel upgrade to my 870, and using what should be effective loads, I'm still useless on the swinger and was also having trouble even getting the plates off the Texas star (my G19 hits them harder). I had been thinking of switching to some kind of semi-auto, or of getting another AK, but probably not both. After seeing Saturday's performance, could the Saiga12 possibly address both "needs"? I'm going to seriously bird-dog this.

Good to see everybody, and hope to again next time. :)

Gunfixr

01-28-08, 11:02

Congrats, Robb, on the finish. I think you were the only one to finish stage 1 in under the 199 time limit.

Sorry, Cavscout, I already got a slow shotgun, or did until yesterday.
I, too noticed that the Saigas dominated the shotgun portions, making even the slug shots look easy. Not to mention making the spinner a non-issue.
Despite my barrel upgrades and heavier shells, I also failed the spinner. So Sun. I loaded up the 870 and a Ruger Blackhawk I haven't shot in years and headed to the gun show. After selling off the 870 and Blackhawk, I came home with a 19" Saiga 12 and 2 of the AGP 10rd mags.
If you want one, better go after it now. There were only 2 dealers that had any, one of them had 2 and the other had only 1. Both said that they took on average 6 months or more to get any in.

blackscot

01-28-08, 11:42

.......I came home with a 19" Saiga 12 and 2 of the AGP 10rd mags........

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

.......If you want one, better go after it now. There were only 2 dealers that had any, one of them had 2 and the other had only 1. Both said that they took on average 6 months or more to get any in.

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

Hey Nate -- What kind of choke arrangement do they come with?

Oh, and also, pics please ???

Gunfixr

01-28-08, 12:54

I'll snap a couple of pics and get them up. I'm gonna trick it out anyway, so I'll need before and after pics.

As far as chokes go, they apparently come several ways. They come with internal chokes or external chokes. Mine has a threaded barrel with a collar on it that takes the external chokes, but it didn't come with any. I measured the end of the bore with calipers and it's cylinder sized. Centerfire Systems has a Polychoke w/ compensator that has a part number beginning with SAI, so I believe it is made to screw right on. It comes with a spanner wrench, and it's $99. Since the sight plane is so much higher than the barrel, I'm gonna go that route, no tubes, just grab the end and twist. If it doesn't go right on, I'll see what it takes to get it on there and let you know. I'm also gonna put a rifle sight on the end of the barrel to get the long sight radius, and convert it over to pistol grip configuration. DPH arms has the SAW style pistol grips on sale for $18 and US FCG for $28. That and the US made stock, about $35, is all I need to convert it and be 922r compliant, as long as any muzzle attachments are US made. On the plus side, the 10rd mags count as 3 more compliance parts when those are in the gun.

Here's a pic of what it looks like, for now:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/Saiga12002.jpg

blackscot

01-29-08, 06:00

Looks good. Can't wait to see the "after".

Called Dark Sun last night -- said they sold their last Saiga 12 at the Hampton show last weekend. :(

I have a couple of other possibilities brewing though. Need to figure out what load/barrel config got that spinner flying, although I don't especially need a Saiga to accomplish that. Some kind of interchangeable choke might help a lot.

One thing for-sure, I'm going to want some kind of gas-op to keep this up all year. Am getting some belated shoulder stress since last night -- really locking up on me. The pump isn't going to cut it for the kinds of stages Joe is running us through.

Gunfixr

01-29-08, 12:11

Yeah, I missed getting the one Dark Sun had by about 10 minutes, which was a shame since it was $60 cheaper than the one I got. I got mine from SSG, 181 Kings Hwy, Fredericksburg, Va 22405. Tel 540-760-9304. He said he had one more, unless he sold it after I left.

Last night I reworked the bolt handle to a Galil style. Now you don't have to charge the bolt by using the firing hand or rotating the weapon a full 90 degrees to reach it with the other hand. Now, it sticks up and can be easily reached by the off hand with a minimal rotation of the weapon. It is canted back to the rear so that the sweeping hand doesn't hit the rear sight.

blackscot

01-30-08, 06:30

Yeah, I missed getting the one Dark Sun had by about 10 minutes, which was a shame since it was $60 cheaper than the one I got. I got mine from SSG......

What a small world! I spoke to Doug Stockman at SSG just last week about getting a Vector AK (he didn't have any).

Maybe just as well for me on the Saiga though. I went ahead with a decision that had been pending since earlier last month, when Charlie at DeGoffs showed me an 11-87 that just seemed to "speak to me". Called back yesterday and it was still available, so I picked it up from work.

I'll be making some minor changes to get it more match-compatible, as well as some pattern testing to evaluate/adjust for steel knock-down (it has an interchangeable choke). Shall post a separate thread on the shotgun board with full details and pics.

One thing's for sure: I've got a bead on that spinner and won't rest until I send it to hell ! ! ! :mad: :mad: :mad:

luxor

01-30-08, 13:19

Hey Guys,

There is no secret to spining the damn thing, just make sure you choke your barrels right.

I used the 870 with a modified choke on a 20" barrel and fliped it with four rounds of #8 :D. I am still going back to the 1100 next month though.

blackscot

01-31-08, 06:52

......I used the 870 with a modified choke on a 20" barrel and fliped it with four rounds of #8 :D. ........

Hmm.....my 870 has a 20-inch but with IC choke. Using 1-5/8 oz. #6, it still just rocked slowly. :confused:

I've got a modified for the 11-87 for next time. Hoping to get even! :mad:

luxor

01-31-08, 12:32

I hope you have better luck next month. I have heard the same thing at a lot of matches. that some guys guns knock stuff down that others will not.

I would just use a full choke all the time, but i dont like to shoot slugs though one.

At the NC Recon match last year i used an 1100 tactical with a modified choke and used #4 buck and there was a popper that i could not get to go down:mad:

blackscot

01-31-08, 13:51

.....I would just use a full choke all the time, but i dont like to shoot slugs though one.....

I too thought of just popping a full in there, but was told that slugs will quickly lead it up to dangerous levels.

.....At the NC Recon match last year i used an 1100 tactical with a modified choke and used #4 buck and there was a popper that i could not get to go down:mad:

That's a pisser.

Gunfixr

02-01-08, 12:15

Polychoke makes one of their adjustable chokes with compensator to screw right onto the Saigas threaded barrel.
I have one on order.
Any choke I want with just a twist, full for the flipper, modified for the slugs.

I already have the trigger guard and FCG moved forward and a pistol grip installed, waiting on the stock. Also gonna work on the AK front sight this weekend. Gonna convert the wide open notch rear to a ghost ring aperture.

I'm hoping with the drop of slugs at 100yds. that when sighted, the shot pattern will be pretty close at 15. I'm gonna try some different load combos to hopefully acheive this. I'm tired of missing the 80 yd. slug shots entirely.

blackscot

02-11-08, 08:05

Got the 11-87 put together and took out over the weekend. Configured basically like my 870. Replaced the too-nice walnut stocks that came on it with synthetic, and transferred the mag extension and sling from the 870.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/11-87/synth_stocks.jpg

Good news is that it is going to knock down that steel a lot better then the 870, but I'm not sure why -- see here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11526

Bad news is that it won't cycle field loads -- see here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11524

Gunfixr

02-14-08, 23:30

That's a bummer on the field loads. Got my Saiga done. Took it to the range earlier this week. Sighted it in with slugs at 100 yds. It's patterning real close (close enough to use) at 15 yds, and the Poly Choke works just fine. It cycles those cheap Winchester field loads, Remington Express loads and Federal slugs without a hitch. Got it converted to AK furniture. Extended the mag release and bolt handle. Now it can be completely operated quickly without removing the firing hand from the pistol grip. Here's an updated pic:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/Saiga12FAL003.jpg

Got a pic of the finished FAL also:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/Saiga12FAL001.jpg

blackscot

02-15-08, 05:54

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

blackscot

02-16-08, 13:35

Just got Joe's announcement email and replied back for my spot. :)

koolaid

02-16-08, 15:36

I'm in

Gunfixr

02-17-08, 23:41

I'm in too. :D :D :D

Wayne G.

02-18-08, 07:38

Woohoo! Me too!

blackscot

02-19-08, 11:46

Just got an email with the COF's. I'm assuming Joe will also have them on the website soon. Anybody PM me if you'd like me to post here.

The email also says the sign-up is full-full, with 50 shooters -- the most ever. :eek: Should make for an interesting day. Something told me it's going to get increasingly popular as the year wears on.

Looks like more pistol and less shotgun than the past couple of matches. I'm also disappointed that no swinger this time, and the Texas Star engagements are pistol only. And here after all my trouble preparing for these targets with shotgun. :( Free-standing plates are the only shotgun targets this time, which my 870 pump was never a problem with -- am thinking I should just bring it again, and leave the newly-acquired but problematic semi-auto at home. :confused:

Bound to be fun whatever happens -- see you all there.

TY44934

02-19-08, 13:40

Aw booger! Waited too long and didn't get in! :mad: (wife is even out of town this weekend).

Have fun & good shooting guys. See you next time.

D.

blackscot

02-20-08, 05:43

Aw booger! Waited too long and didn't get in! :mad: (wife is even out of town this weekend).

Have fun & good shooting guys. See you next time.

D.

I think Joe usually runs a waiting list you could get on, in case of any cancellations. Will probably have some with this big a sign-up.

Re. the COF's, looks like he might be trying to streamline things a bit to accommodate the large number of shooters.

I also see the time-limit deal is back to how it was at the match last August: reach limit --> stop shooting, and take the rest as misses.

TY44934

02-24-08, 12:42

I think Joe usually runs a waiting list you could get on, in case of any cancellations. Will probably have some with this big a sign-up.

Thanks! I came, I shot, I had a great time. See you guys next month (when I will hopefully pay closer attention to the sign up). d.

PS Gunfixer let me try that Saiga pictured above and its clearly the gun to have for in 3gun. In the future it will dominate the sport.

Robb Jensen

02-24-08, 14:57

Lesson learned....................don't dick with your guns or switch up ammo before a match.

I shortened the carrier/lifter on my Benelli to keep it from catching my thumb and Hack-Fu'd (cut off) the factory mag tube and added a Sure Cycle mag extension, spring & follower on Friday. At the store if feed my A-zoom snap caps just fine. I also used some different loads that I had never tried in that gun. I had two weird shotgun failures when the shotgun fired and ejected just fine but the next round only came out of the mag about 1/2" and had to be pushed back into the magazine tube from the ejection port with my pinky finger. It took me twice as long as most in that stage.....lesson learned. So I'll replace the carrier/lifter and see if it cures it.

Reminders to self for next time: bring a dump pouch and slow down a little on pistol steel. Even though I had the 2nd fastest (and clean) time on Stage 1 the big rifle one, my pistol could have been a tad better I nailed the tombstones and poppers just fine but went a little to fast on the plates requiring extra shots. I placed 10 overall in the match.

I am planning on shooting Blue Ridge Mountain 3-gun Championship (shooting on Sunday). www.brm3g.com for more info.
It's a lot of running and gunning! Slugs 24, Birdshot 131, Pistol 176, Rifle 111, Total 442.

BBsound

02-24-08, 15:16

Robb Jensen

02-24-08, 15:51

The Brm3g is a 3-day match, you have to shoot 4 stages friday, 4 on sat, and 2 on sunday.

DOH! :eek: Didn't read that far!
Thanks for pointing that out.

If it were a one day match I could make it, 3days (taking two off work) is way more difficult.

Wayne G.

02-24-08, 16:34

Reminders to self for next time: bring a dump pouch and slow down a little on pistol steel.

Robb, why a dump pouch? In other words, for what--loose ammo? loaded mags?

Great shooting by the way, especially stage 1! Wow!!! I wanna shoot just like you and Dan when I grow up!
:D :D :D

glockshooter

02-24-08, 16:49

Robb Jensen

02-24-08, 16:56

Robb, why a dump pouch? In other words, for what--loose ammo? loaded mags?

Great shooting by the way, especially stage 1! Wow!!! I wanna shoot just like you and Dan when I grow up!
:D :D :D

Thanks! :D
Dump pouch reasoning.
Trying to stuff the mags into my pockets took too much time.
For Stage 2 if I were to do it again, I would have loaded one mag with 3 rounds, one with 2 rounds and one with 25 rounds since it was a total of 30 rounds distributed among the 3 mags required.

I would have dropped the two other mags not in use in the dump pouch so I wouldn't try to load a mag in the gun while holding onto three mags like I did...DOH.

Reasoning for 3 rounds, 2 rounds and 25 rounds because I wouldn't have to re-engage the same targets (more efficient with less/little confusion).

I would load the 3 rounder in the gun first and shoot the leftmost target (the first one was one of the failure drill ones with black paint on them) went to bolt lock, loaded the 2 rounder, shoot the next leftmost target (only two shots required on that one) shot to bolt lock and then loaded the last mag (25 rounds) and let it eat until the last 2 targets which required transitioning to handgun (and hopefully not forget the headshots required when shooting them with the pistol like I did...DOH!:eek: so I got to misses for rounds I forgot to shoot.).

You should come to the Fredericksburg USPSA match (Fred. Rod/Gun club) on Sunday. Shooting starts at about 9am.

Robb Jensen

02-24-08, 16:59

my match score took a nose dive on stage 2. I told Mike Oberman to throw his little steel target in the woods.

Hey Robb I want to point out I beat you by a huge gap of .17 seconds. Try to get a little closer next time.:D

Matt

I'll try to bring a shotgun that works next time. ;) If mine won't work I'll shoot Dan L's 'green monster' Remmy 1100.

Wayne G.

02-24-08, 17:21

https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=617&stc=1&d=1203894967
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=618&stc=1&d=1203894975
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https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=621&stc=1&d=1203895004

Wayne G.

02-24-08, 17:24

https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=622&stc=1&d=1203895288
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=623&stc=1&d=1203895300
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https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=626&stc=1&d=1203895337

Wayne G.

02-24-08, 17:29

https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=627&stc=1&d=1203895531
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=628&stc=1&d=1203895545
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https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=631&stc=1&d=1203895585

Wayne G.

02-24-08, 17:31

https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=632&stc=1&d=1203895841
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=633&stc=1&d=1203895849
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=634&stc=1&d=1203895862
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=635&stc=1&d=1203895871
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=636&stc=1&d=1203895880

glockshooter

02-24-08, 18:43

I'll try to bring a shotgun that works next time. ;) If mine won't work I'll shoot Dan L's 'green monster' Remmy 1100.

I agree you, bring a gun that works, and get Mike to leave that POS steel at home. We should be good to go then.

Matt

Gunfixr

02-24-08, 19:48

Reminders to self for next time: bring a dump pouch and slow down a little on pistol steel.[/B]

I brought my dump pouch for just that reason, since I can never remember to use it as intended. It worked great, easy to just drop my mags into after picking them up from wherever.
I definately need to slow down a little also. I brought the 1911 this time, I've owned this gun for 23 yrs., so I know it well. Mag changes, although more often with 7rd. cap., were unconsciously done. I just recently fitted a new slide and barrel, as I wore out the originals, and it's just barely broken in, and not fully dialed in sight wise.
The Saiga was awesome. It hicupped on the first mag, but no more, and not later when a bunch of folks were trying it out and playing with it. Might have been ammo, or just a new gun and mags. I've read that the AGP mags start to really shine after they've had 50 or so rounds through them, which I haven't yet done.
Those tiny pistol targets were a bear, I was moving the sight picture around trying to find them, plus it was all I could do to get crouched down that far to shoot under the board. I took a camera and got one of the guys to video my entire 3 stages. After watching them several times, I can definately see where I need work, very informative.
I had another good time shooting with you guys, and look forward to next month. Maybe one day I can get as good as some of you folks do. Practice, practice, practice.

blackscot

02-25-08, 06:43

Well I sure feel a lot better than I did with my performance at last month's match. No major screw-ups, and ended up 18th out of 47 -- I'll take it. :cool:

The new 11-87 ran without a hitch on Stage 3 -- I stuck entirely with hi-brass. I had left off the barrel clamp (to avoid marring the barrel) and sling until deciding whether to keep this gun, which I think now I will try to stay with through this season. Definitely patterns good. I'm looking forward to a future chance with it at the swinger and/or star as the ultimate test.

I gotta commend Joe on his stage designs in always having something for everybody, including some elements that are a challenge for even the best shooters. The rest of us need to judge at what point difficult becomes too difficult time-wise, leaving the best course to accept the misses and move on. By that rationale, I had saved the "keyes" for last on Stage 1, but somehow got lucky on them (even without any magnification) and managed to complete the stage actually under the time limit ! ! ! :eek: The cargo pockets on my BDU's worked well as the dump pouch needed on this stage.

For the rifle part of Stage 2, my mags were loaded 1-2-27. I chambered from the single-round mag, immediately ejected to replace with the two-rounder, dispatched the first target to the left (requiring 3 rounds), then loaded the final mag to run the gun dry to the pistol transition. Seemed to work. I also got a real good impression of the holdover needed when using the carbine at < 5-yard distances.

Lastly -- and just to make sure that I'm complaining enough ! ! ! -- I'll join in on the exasperation with the tiny flip-up plates. I gave them one full 15-round mag -- that's 3 shots per plate -- before deciding best to move on to the rest of the stage. Joe has threatened a return of the flip-ups, possibly to be engaged with rifle. I've got a swinger plate about the same size that I'll be spending some practice time with.

Great seeing everyone again. Also great photos Wayne -- thanks! :D

luxor

02-25-08, 14:23

Gunfixr

02-25-08, 23:49

Those little flippers were kind of a fluke. There was supposed to be a star on that stage, and we had the plates and the star out there that morning, but the guy who built the flipper rack drove up with it in his truck and asked Joe if he had a use for it. So the star went back to the shed and we shot, or attempted to shoot, the little flipper rack.
I noticed a lot of you were loading the mags with two of them real low and one high round count. I loaded mine close to equal, 9-10-11, so they would empty out at about the same time, and I wouldn't have to try to keep track of which one went in first. I can feel the difference in the recoil of the bolt lock shot, so I knew when to change mags.

Wayne G.

02-26-08, 04:23

blackscot

02-26-08, 06:02

Well that match was interesting. I managed Third place, narrowly beating joe by 2 tenths of a second. I got to meet a few people this time so i can put faces to the names.

Rob sorry to hear about your gun. I went with 3,2,25 on stage 2 seemed to work good and i had no problems on the little flip up steel :p

Hope to see everyone next month.

Rob, better luck in Fredricksburg this weekend.

Larry -- Glad we crossed paths during squad changes. And dayum, you must be fast man! Accurate too if the flip-ups were "no problem". Looks like Tito and our own Dan were the only ones to surpass you.

Joe has been trying where possible to group the m4carbine folks on squad 3, so let him know next time if you'd like to join the rest of us. You'd be more than welcome -- and I'd like to see some of that kind of shooting first-hand! :eek: :D

Randy

Robb Jensen

02-26-08, 06:20

I have more but the majority of them are over 100MB and I don't know how to edit them to make them smaller (under 100MB) so Photobucket can host them. My stage 2 vid was too big too.

Stage 1 part 1 pistol (I need to slow down a little on pistol steel)
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/BlackCreek%203gun%20videos/?action=view&current=ROBST1PT1.flv

Stage 1 part 2 rifle
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/BlackCreek%203gun%20videos/?action=view&current=ROBST1PT2.flv

Stage 3 pistol
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/BlackCreek%203gun%20videos/?action=view&current=ROBST3PT1.flv

Stage 3 shotgun (this is where my Benelli took a dump)
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/BlackCreek%203gun%20videos/?action=view&current=ROBST3PT2.flv

blackscot

02-26-08, 06:43

Excellent Robb and Pete ! ! ! Like being there all over again.

Robb -- you just smoked the pistol segment of Stage 3. Glad Pete caught that on-vid.

Then that hack-fu'd lifter on your Benelli sure gave you fits though.

Gunfixr

02-26-08, 07:08

Nate,
My thinking was 1, 2, 27. The idea was to insert the mag w/ 1 round, chamber the round, dump the mag and replace with the 2 round mag. Fire 2 shots, dump the mag and insert the 27 round mag all while on the first target. I didn't fire the first round til the second mag was inserted. Then, I only fired two rounds, leaving one in the chamber on the reload. The idea being to turn 2 reloads essentially into 1. I'm new to 3-gun and two of the 3 guns (rifle and shotgun) and I don't pretend to know the answer, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. :D

I enjoyed it nonetheless and look forward to the next match!

Oh, I don't claim to have the answer either, and if you look where I finished you can see that I don't, I'm just having a good time. Actually, I didn't think of trying to turn 2 reloads into 1, I was just trying to make it smooth.
I'd do a lot better if I could just get my pistol work up to par. Just with working 2 jobs, 2nd shift all week and 1st shift on Sat., I don't get much range time. Mostly, when I show up, it's the first time I've been to the range since the last shoot. I'm gonna try to get in at least one visit to the range in March.

blackscot

02-26-08, 07:56

.....I don't get much range time. Mostly, when I show up, it's the first time I've been to the range since the last shoot. I'm gonna try to get in at least one visit to the range in March.

If I'm not already going to the range to work out any equipment issues, I try to at least make a short warm-up visit sometime during the week before the match. Not only can time be an issue, but increasingly the cost of ammo as well.

Not that it makes that much difference for me either -- just to reinforce the delusion that I have any idea what I'm doing. :p

luxor

02-26-08, 14:07

Larry -- Glad we crossed paths during squad changes. And dayum, you must be fast man! Accurate too if the flip-ups were "no problem". Looks like Tito and our own Dan were the only ones to surpass you.

Joe has been trying where possible to group the m4carbine folks on squad 3, so let him know next time if you'd like to join the rest of us. You'd be more than welcome -- and I'd like to see some of that kind of shooting first-hand! :eek: :D

Randy

Blackscot,

Thanks for the vote of convidence, but i think it was more of an equipment/ prop thing than me being fast.

When i said no problem on the little fippers, i meant i had no problem getting them to go up ( don't know about how fast i shot them :D )

If it went for rob's equipment faliure he probably would have beatten me. And i have never beaten Joe before. I guess i will take it when i can get it.

Wayne G.

02-26-08, 16:53

Oh, I don't claim to have the answer either, and if you look where I finished you can see that I don't, I'm just having a good time.
I hear ya bro. Me too! By the way, I hope you didn't think my comment was directed towards you! It was solely about my "strategy" despite my lack of delivery! ;)

Look forward to seeing you next month!

TY44934

02-27-08, 09:39

Oh, I don't claim to have the answer either, and if you look where I finished you can see that I don't, I'm just having a good time. Actually, I didn't think of trying to turn 2 reloads into 1, I was just trying to make it smooth.
I'd do a lot better if I could just get my pistol work up to par. Just with working 2 jobs, 2nd shift all week and 1st shift on Sat., I don't get much range time. Mostly, when I show up, it's the first time I've been to the range since the last shoot. I'm gonna try to get in at least one visit to the range in March.

I think this discussion points out how important it is to properly game these stages.

For example, seeing how the other shooters struggled with the inconsistent mini-plate rack, we should have just fired 5 shots as fast as possible, then moved on. I did something similar last time I shot the shotgun flipper and ended up in the top 5. Gaming works.

And that rifle reloading stage?

I loaded 1, fired, then 2, fired both, then 27.

The intelligent way to game it was to load 1, eject mag, load 2nd mag with 2 rounds, fire those rounds and reload with final mag & hose away.

Another way to buy some time on that one would have been to buy & use a Redimag or buy a good 2-mag coupler.

Anyway, I had a great time and I look forward to whatever Joe comes up with next. See everyone there or at Fredericksburg.

D.

ps - The pistol targets on stage 1 were tough, sure - but they were 100% fair. When hit, those plates fell. No complaint at all.

On the other hand, I saw many shooters hit the small flip up target plate rack but the targets failed to stick. It was NOT consistent. If you hit a target that is designed to stick, then it should stick. My complaint is not that the target was too tough, it was simply not consistent nor fair for everyone. I think there are better alternatives in the prop shed we could use in the future.

Robb Jensen

02-27-08, 10:24

Doug (TY44934 )is right. An even better way to game it would have been to just load a mag with 27 rounds (the other two with 1 and 2) and just shoot the 27 rounder then when the rifle runs dry just transition to pistol to finish and not even worry about reloading the rifle. All the top 'instructors/trainers' teach transitioning inside 25yds (for those who think this is somehow supposed to be real). I don't recall anything in the stage description said that you had to use all three mags, it just said that you had a max of 30 rounds and the 3 mags couldn't have the same number of rounds per mag.

I think I got my shotgun figured out. Yesterday at work I took it apart and looked it over. When I had the failure of the rounds coming out of the mag I could hear/feel the rounds sliding back and forth in the tube (during the match). I don't think it was the lifter/carrier shortening that caused the problem. I think it was the mag tube thats attached to the receiver. When I removed the guts of the mag and installed the mag extension and looked down at it with a flashlight I could see a large lip that was catching the follower. The Benelli mag tube wasn't even thickness all the way around. So yesterday I beveled the inner lip so that it's a smoother transition for the follower to jump across as it leaves the SRM mag extension and then moves into the Benelli mag tube. I also switched followers to a stainless one I've had from Brownells for a while that doesn't have as many edges on it as the SRM one does.

I also installed some 3gungear.com stuff and a Arrendondo charging handle.

Right now I'm running a Benelli Montefeltro inertia spring and a Wolff reduced power action/recoil spring and it runs well with low brass Winchester Super Sport #8s (before I added the SRM mag extension).

I plan to have the bolt lightened up by Benny Hill of Triangle Shooting Sports (http://www.triangleshootingsports.com/) and then return to stock springs (the lightening is $85) It makes for less felt recoil, faster cycling and better reliability with lighter loads (less than 1 1/8oz).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/6e9b1793.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/7d415b3e.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/fc3fdc12.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/1cf8a89d.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/bb413c90.jpg

The bolts look like this after lightening by Benny Hill.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/30a8df94.jpg

blackscot

02-27-08, 12:36

.....I don't recall anything in the stage description said that you had to use all three mags, it just said that you had a max of 30 rounds and the 3 mags couldn't have the same number of rounds per mag......

We cornered Joe on this as we assembled for the stage -- he was already right there -- and said: yes, you have to use all 3 mags before transitioning. Within that requirement, I think we all did a good job of trying to game it as much as possible anyway. :p

.....I think I got my shotgun figured out.......I also installed some 3gungear.com stuff.......a Wolff reduced power action/recoil spring and it runs well with low brass Winchester Super Sport #8s......

Interesting, and would certainly account for the hiccups.

Also very sharp looking set-up. Is that the MMC ghost-ring? What kind of front? I would be facing getting some kind of aftermarket sights if I ended up replacing my 11-87 barrel with something pressure compensated, which would lack the factory rifle sights my current uncompensated barrel has.

I wonder if Wolff has a spring for my 11-87 that would enable it to eat lo-brass. :rolleyes:

ETA - looks like all they've got in recoil springs for the Remington is an extra-power. :(

Robb Jensen

02-27-08, 16:41

We cornered Joe on this as we assembled for the stage -- he was already right there -- and said: yes, you have to use all 3 mags before transitioning. Within that requirement, I think we all did a good job of trying to game it as much as possible anyway. :p

Shouldn't have asked since it wasn't in the stage description, can't penalize for breaking a rule which isn't clarified. ;)

Interesting, and would certainly account for the hiccups.

Also very sharp looking set-up. Is that the MMC ghost-ring? What kind of front? I would be facing getting some kind of aftermarket sights if I ended up replacing my 11-87 barrel with something pressure compensated, which would lack the factory rifle sights my current uncompensated barrel has.

Yes that's a MMC rear sight, stock front. The gun originally had a ported rifle sighted barrel (both front and rear are on the barrel) but I traded it off for the current barrel and needed a sight and the MMC was in stock at Brownells and cheaper than the LPA from Benelli.

I wonder if Wolff has a spring for my 11-87 that would enable it to eat lo-brass. :rolleyes:

ETA - looks like all they've got in recoil springs for the Remington is an extra-power. :(

I'd say find a cheap used 11-87 barrel and cut it down if necessary (21-24" would be ideal) and have it threaded for chokes and open the gas ports to make it work with low brass and make it strickly a game barrel. I'd just use a vent rib and a fiber front sight (turkey hunting type).

blackscot

02-28-08, 06:48

Shouldn't have asked since it wasn't in the stage description, can't penalize for breaking a rule which isn't clarified. ;)

I know.....I'm too nice. :rolleyes:

I'd say find a cheap used 11-87 barrel and cut it down if necessary (21-24" would be ideal) and have it threaded for chokes and open the gas ports to make it work with low brass and make it strickly a game barrel. I'd just use a vent rib and a fiber front sight (turkey hunting type).

Yup, that'd do it......

Or, I could just open the ports on the barrel I have to get basically the same thing, but including the rifle sights. Experience has convinced me that I personally must have a sight line a good half-inch above the barrel, to allow me a high enough mount to not be getting eye-punched on each round.

Robb Jensen

02-28-08, 12:51

Here's the other videos that Pete got that are smaller than 100MB.

I think a co-worker can help me shorten the others that are too big for Photobucket.

George C. on Stage 1.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/BlackCreek%203gun%20videos/?action=view&current=450ca26a.flv

Doug J. on Stage 1.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/BlackCreek%203gun%20videos/?action=view&current=5b3ea81f.flv

Dan L. on stage 3.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/BlackCreek%203gun%20videos/?action=view&current=d7e28c38.flv

Dan L. on stage 2.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/BlackCreek%203gun%20videos/?action=view&current=40ca5bd7.flv

blackscot

02-28-08, 13:20

These are so cool. I especially like the one of Dan on the shotgun stage.

Robb Jensen

02-28-08, 13:22

These are so cool. I especially like the one of Dan on the shotgun stage.

He's pretty fast for an old guy :p .....I like to raz him ;) , he finally just joined this forum!

DanL

02-28-08, 16:29

I've got to get my shotgun reloads done quicker. It took about16-18 seconds to reload 9 shells. Need it to be about 10. Also those clodhopper boots made me run flat footed.

Robb Jensen

02-28-08, 18:14

I've got to get my shotgun reloads done quicker. It took about13-14 seconds to reload 9 shells. Need it to be about 10. Also those clodhopper boots made me run flat footed.

You did great in the match dude. And I see you can really type too. I was expecting something like this :D :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/39ec34df.gif

DanL

02-28-08, 20:27

Only took a half an hour. And I figgered ot hawel ta do da pitcher too.

Robb Jensen

02-28-08, 20:48

Only took a half an hour. And I figgered ot hawel ta do da pitcher too.

hahaha! :p

blackscot

02-29-08, 05:49

Welcome Dan! This thread is reason enough to join.

blackscot

03-03-08, 06:21

Hey! I just now noticed that whoever scored me on Stage 3 didn't record the popper I left standing. That would knock me back 2 places in the overall standing -- behind Pat and Slusher ! ! ! :eek: :eek: :eek:

This is the second time a scoring error has been in my favor. I need to shuddup......

Wayne G.

03-03-08, 16:49

This is the second time a scoring error has been in my favor. I need to shuddup......

That's alright, they made up for it on me on stage 1. I got penalized 50 pts for missing the 5 keys. Or, on the other hand, maybe misses were 10. ?

I still had a blast and look forward to the next match. :D

TY44934

03-04-08, 14:52

Did all of you guys make it to Tino's Fredericksburg shoot on Sunday? If not, you missed out on a great match; 154 round minimum, 119 shooters showed up. The 7 scenarios were really good ones. One of them had you shooting over a table/briefcase, then you had to run to a door, open it, and engage more targets while dodging a "hostage" (white target) ducking out of the way right in front of the threat targets. Finally, you had to shoot through a barrel by using a shooting position you might use if you sought cover behind a car or a lunch counter.

There were also several high round-count house-like stages with walls, corridors & windows and a stage that had a short flight of stairs & a landing or platform to shoot down from at steel targets. Quite a bit of shooting on the move too. Everyone got plenty of trigger time.

On our squad, we had about 14 or 15 people and only 2 guys used "race guns" - everyone else used regular iron sights and there were many Glocks, some M&Ps, a few Sigs, an XD, a couple 1911s, some CZs, a Beretta, a Steyr 9mm, and a few I did not get a good look at.

Hopefully we'll see a lot of you guys at the shoot next month; I'll try to post an announcement with Tino's email as soon as they open up the sign up. BTW - Tino is the guy who usually shoots on Joe's squad & his wife usually shoots too; good folks and they are both excellent shooters.

D.

PS - I think Terry is having a shoot down at Blackwater in N.C. this month too.

Wayne G.

03-04-08, 17:39

I missed it, and I live in Fredericksburg. :(

Is this a monthly match? What is the entry fee?

DanL

03-04-08, 20:14

It's the first Sunday of every month March-November. It's 20 dollars to shoot. If your not a USPSA member you can join there. Yes it was a good time. I was 11th overall in limited and third in my class "B". If you need any more info about it E-mail Tino at Bad320@aol.com. If you have any other questions ask talk to us (Doug,Dan ,Pat,Robb) at the BC3G on the 29th.

blackscot

03-05-08, 06:07

Wayne -- Here's everything you need to know about USPSA, which the Fredericksburg matches are part of.

http://www.uspsa.org/

You will find Fredericksburg Rod And Gun listed there under the "find a club".

I've been there a few times over the years, and they've always been excellent. Would probably go more if it wasn't for the drive. You should definitely check it out being nearby.

USPSA was still mostly tricked-out race guns back when I used to shoot it regularly (90's and early 00's). The "production" class didn't really get going until I had already "crossed over" to IDPA. I haven't shot that either for the past couple of years.

BC3G is pretty much maxing out my available resources for now, but if/when that ever changes, I would probably go back to USPSA over IDPA for anything solely handgun.

And Fredericksburg would be where I'd be shooting it. ;)

Gunfixr

03-05-08, 23:45

GotM4, that's a sharp looking shotgun now. That edge would certainly hold things up; when you were talking about what was happening, I was thinking it wasn't the short follower as most newer shotgun designs don't use the follower to hold the shells in the magazine tube. Therefore, the followers length wouldn't affect that, only the feeding itself if it was too short.

Dan was telling me about a Power Custom AK safety that had a second thumb position about halfway back that could be engaged by the trigger finger without removing the firing hand from the pistol grip. I added it to my factory safety (I'm cheap and I can, so why not) and it works great. I also made a new rear sight. The one I had worked fine for close shot shells, but decent groups with slugs at 100 yds. were difficult. The new sight is half ghost ring, half U-notch blade, so to have the attributes of each. The ghost ring is halfway blocked, but will still be quicker than the notch for close work. I go to the range Friday to resight the gun. I will also sight in the 1911, a I hadn't done that since fitting a new barrel and bushing. I had only mostly broken it in, I was expecting a jam or two, but none occured. That was part of my pistol problem, I was trying to find where it was hitting and hit quickly. It didn't work.

Gunfixr

03-09-08, 23:37

Got to the range last Fri. Resighted the Saiga at 100 yds. with slugs after making and installing the rear sight, tested my .223 reloads, and sighted the 1911 in. It was shooting to the left.
Anyway, got a couple of pics of my modded safety and the rear sight.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/Saiga004.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/Saiga005.jpg

Gunfixr

03-13-08, 22:41

Got a scope for my FAL, 1.5-6x42 w/#4 recticle. Nice and bright, has a 30mm tube, should work well. Only problem is, it's enormous. I makes the rifle look like a pistol under it. To keep it down near the bore, it had to be mounted in front of the rear sight, this is where the eye relief puts it anyway. Because it's so long, the front mounting ring hangs in space past the rail. Both rings fit in between the eyepiece and the turret area, so it has two rings on it. They are steel HD rings, but the whole front half of the scope hangs in space. It works, you can't flex it by hand, but I fear for it's stability should something happen, like dropping the rifle. Plus, it looks huge on the little rifle.

I might just bring it anyway and see how it works out in the shoot. The 6x would make those little keys easier to hit, or see anyway.

blackscot

03-14-08, 06:06

Forum rules stipulate that written descriptions of guns longer than two lines must be accompanied by photos. :D

Gunfixr

03-14-08, 11:13

Forum rules stipulate that written descriptions of guns longer than two lines must be accompanied by photos. :D

That's funny. Here it is. The AR is next to it for size comparison, as you've seen that rifle.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/Customgunwork001.jpg

blackscot

03-14-08, 13:38

Now that's a knife!

Hope to see it at the match Nate. :)

TY44934

03-14-08, 18:02

-kinda looks like a Chihuahua and a St. Bernard and they are . . . . never mind. :confused:

Good looking gunsmith work as always! Thanks for the pics. d.

blackscot

03-21-08, 11:49

Check your email dudes -- match announcement and COF's are out ! ! ! :D

Looks like a lot of shotgun this time, including on the Texas Star and Swinger. BRING IT ON ! ! ! :D :D :D

Gunfixr

03-21-08, 22:47

Check your email dudes -- match announcement and COF's are out ! ! ! :D

Looks like a lot of shotgun this time, including on the Texas Star and Swinger. BRING IT ON ! ! ! :D :D :D

OH YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm bringing the Saiga, the shorty FAL, and either the 1911 or the 92 Taurus.

blackscot

03-24-08, 06:00

.....I'm bringing......the shorty FAL......

Looking forward to seeing some action with the .308 -- a real rifle! :cool:

Does anyone "get" Stage 1? Option A has only about half the number of shots required as Options B or C. All I can figure is that he must be setting up the no-shoots to be really difficult. I'll have to see first-hand before I decide which option to take. I generally think the barracade is just more fun to shoot from than prone though.

Gunfixr

03-25-08, 00:07

I don't see it as "option" A, B, or C. I see it as all three, taking the "options" in whatever order you choose.

"START- Shooter starts standing, 10yds, back from firing line, pistol holstered, rifle at low ready.

At buzzer, shooter advances to ANY Shooting position. Target arrays per position as follows:
From A, prone only, tombstones are engaged with two rds each, mini poppers are no shoots. (No other targets are engaged from this position)
From B, engage all steel targets except tombstones with one round each except for gong, hostage, and B/C plate, which get two rds. each, standing, unsupported or supported. (Kinda feel sorry for the hostage, didn't think he was supposed to be shot).
From C, engage all steel targets except tombstones the same as B, but from semi-prone.
The "small steel" can be either engaged from B or C, shooters choice.
BTW, there's a 170 second time limit."

I can't believe it's going to take 170 sec. to hit 5 tombstones, or else everybody would just choose that. I believe we have to shoot ALL the targets from ALL positions, and simply get to choose which one to start from, and what order of positions to shoot from.
Also, based on the number of targets in the drawing, 37 rds. are needed, not 31. This is not counting the hostage. If we shoot it 4 times, like the instructions say, we're going to need 41 rds. minimum.
No big deal, I come to shoot, so more rounds doesn't bother me. I'm thinking I'll shoot prone first, as those will be easiest, then go to C to shoot semi-prone, as it's second most stable and easier, get the small steel from there, and then go standing. While this makes for more up and down, the shooting positions go from most stable to least stable, so the limited time can be used to make the most hits. I'll see how that 6x scope works on the small steel.
I also notice the shotguns are limited to 6 rds. max, with about 20 or so rds. on each of stages 2 and 3. Gonna be a lot of reloading, plus the flipper is back, with a 20 second penalty for not spinning it.

blackscot

03-25-08, 06:23

I don't see it as "option" A, B, or C. I see it as all three, taking the "options" in whatever order you choose........

OK, I see now. Mia culpa for being slow on the pick-up.

.......Also, based on the number of targets in the drawing, 37 rds. are needed, not 31. This is not counting the hostage. If we shoot it 4 times, like the instructions say, we're going to need 41 rds. minimum.........

Possibly a typo?

.......I'll shoot prone first, as those will be easiest, then go to C to shoot semi-prone, as it's second most stable and easier, get the small steel from there, and then go standing. While this makes for more up and down, the shooting positions go from most stable to least stable, so the limited time can be used to make the most hits..........

I'll have to think about what order will work best for me. Doesn't it start with a sprint backward from the 10-yard line? I'll be puffin' from that, which won't make my prone any more stable.

.......the flipper is back.......

This will be my first chance at it with my 11-87, which patterns a lot tighter than the 870 I used before. Really hoping to spin the bastard this time.

Gunfixr

03-25-08, 11:19

The instructions say you start 10 yds. back from the firing line and at the buzzer, advance to any shooting position.
To me this means back, not forward at the berm.
Also, you start with the rifle at low ready. They're not going to have us running back away from the berm towards everybody else with a loaded rifle in our hands.

If I have to, I'll crank that Polychoke down to full, and use the high brass #6s. It WILL spin, one way, or another.

blackscot

03-25-08, 13:51

The instructions say you start 10 yds. back from the firing line (emphasis added).......They're not going to have us running back away from the berm towards everybody else with a loaded rifle in our hands.......

Man -- work is definitely addling my brain. Of course, this makes a lot more sense.

I guess I was picturing something like last time, with the dash back from the starting plate rack.....

Yeah, yeah -- that's it. I'm not getting senile......:(

Gunfixr

03-25-08, 21:45

Don't worry, you'll be alright.

I'm sure they'll tell us everything when we start. And if not, well we will just shoot everything until we're happy. Or out of ammo. :D

Wayne G.

03-28-08, 17:36

Looks like I won't be making the match. I've got a sore throat (viral) and there's a chance I won't be feeling better by tomorrow so I figured best to e-mail Joe and give someone on the waiting list my slot rather than running the risk of not showing tomorrow.

I was looking forward to this shotgun-heavy match especially since I've been practicing reloads. Oh well, I hope to get to see everyone next month. Have fun!!!

Gunfixr

03-28-08, 23:22

I'm not going to be there, either. There has been a death in the family on my wifes side this week. At first she told me that it was fine for me to go ahead to the shoot, as the funeral is on Saturday. Tonight, at work, she calls and has had a change of heart while at the veiwing. Seems it's sinking in now. Anyway, she wants me to go to the funeral for moral support, so I'll see you guys next month.

blackscot

03-31-08, 07:32

.....she wants me to go to the funeral for moral support, so I'll see you guys next month.

You're a good man Nate.

.....I've got a sore throat (viral) and there's a chance I won't be feeling better by tomorrow......

Hope you're feeling better by now Wayne.

A few other of our regulars from here didn't make it this time (Pat, Doug, Luis, Robb...am I forgetting anyone?). Dan was the only rep from NOVA -- I could tell he was lonely, although he tried hard to keep a stiff upper lip. :D

Guess everyone's got the results email by now. I came in nearly smack-dab in the middle overall. Managed to make the 170 sec. cut-off for stage 1. Thanks to Matt H. for lending me his 3x Aimpoint magnifier there to try out behind my ML2. Interesting experience -- I'll make a separate post on the optics board later on that.

Most importantly, I finally got to spin the spinner (in a mere 3 shots no less) and clear the Texas Star with my 11-87 on Stage 2. Guess that accounts for me coming in higher up (14th) on that one, even though I felt really s-l-o-w on the pistol part.

For those not there, Joe announced that noise complaints from neighbors have caused the range owner to require from now on that all rifle takes place only on the black-powder range (where we usually have stage 1). The stage 2/3 area will therefore be generally limited to pistol and shotgun only (although from the results email, it looks like Joe is going to try to stretch that by doing things like working in a "guest" .22 AR there next time). Hopefully we will have both short and long range work with the "real" rifle stage in future matches.

Kinda sucks to be constrained, but I'm likewise amazed we're still able to do this at all, the way the development is closing in. Can't last forever, so enjoy it now while we can.

Gunfixr

04-21-08, 13:33

Joe's got the COF sent out for this month. Who's coming to play? Looks like fun.

Wayne G.

04-21-08, 14:20

I'm in. I like the idea of using the shotgun on 2 stages. Looks like one of the stages will feature 3 guns; shotgun, pistol, and "guest" 22.

You're right Nate, looks fun! :D

Gunfixr

04-22-08, 01:08

Yep, a "guest" AR in .22lr caliber.

I think I'm gonna bring the short FAL, a 9mm I picked up recently, and of course the Saiga.

blackscot

04-22-08, 12:47

I'm in.

Finally found some low brass (relatively) that will cycle my 11-87: Winchester AA. Still not the cheapest around, but a lot less than what I had been using, and easier on the shoulder too.

Just got off the handgun board. Looks like Mr. Dan is gonna let me borrow his HK P30 for the match. Is that cool or what? :cool:

This could be my last match for 1-2 months cuz of werk.....:rolleyes:

Gunfixr

04-22-08, 18:43

That sucks. Oh well, ya do what ya gotta do, and ya do what ya wanna do when ya can.

Took the Saiga to the range today to test a new gas adjuster knob that I had made. The factory had 2 settings and mine had three, as well as being designed a little differently in hopes of improving the gas efficiency.
Apparently it worked.
When firing the really low powered Walmart general use shells, which are loaded to 3drams of powder, it would cycle but the shells would just sort of dribble out the side. With the new plug on its max setting, they fly out like the field loads did with the original plug. The field loads are loaded with 3 1/4 drams of powder. Also, the new plug has a setting between the min and max, which I think will work better with heavy, high brass 2 3/4" shells. With the original plug, these high brass shells kind of beat on you some. Also, I get to tweak the min setting, which is for 3" mag shells. Right now, it likes Remingtons but doesn't quite cycle Federals. I will open that up just a little.
Also, the original requires a tool to push in a lock pin and a tool to rotate the knob. This one rotates by hand with no tools needed.
It's made of NICUAL, a specialty alloy used extensively on subs for high pressure lines and fittings. It's rather hard, very tough, and absolutey non corrodable, except by some sort of acid.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/Customgunwork009.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/Customgunwork010.jpg

Unfortunately, it doesn't take blueing at all, so I'll have to paint it.

blackscot

04-23-08, 07:11

More beautiful work Nate. You should really considering opening your own business someday.

TY44934

04-25-08, 16:18

It's made of NICUAL, a specialty alloy used extensively on subs for high pressure lines and fittings. It's rather hard, very tough, and absolutey non corrodable, except by some sort of acid.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/Customgunwork009.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/Gunfixr/Customgunwork010.jpg

Unfortunately, it doesn't take blueing at all, so I'll have to paint it.

Probably wears out tooling fast too. But, the Saiga is starting to take of in USPSA. I bet you could sell dozens of those easily adjustable regulators for - who knows how much?

Robb Jensen

04-25-08, 21:29

I'll take one bro! I haven't sent out the receiver block yet I keep forgetting too. I'll send it out on Monday.

Gunfixr

04-27-08, 11:40

Used the Saiga yesterday with the knob installed. Gun worked fine. I had a few shells that didn't want to chamber properly, but they were one brand. I used Federal Walmart specials one one stage, and Winchester field loads on the other. The Winchesters were the ones where a couple didn't want to go in the chamber, probably out-of-round.

Yes, this material eats tooling. The knurling is especially difficult, as it is a pressure application, not cut in. That alone used more than half the total time to make it.
I made that one from a piece of drop from a job, I'll have to see if I can get a supply of it, and how much it costs, to make some out of. I had also made a replacement piston out of this stuff (a 922r part). A couple of folks over at the Saiga forums are already interested also.

Rob, you missed a good shoot. Dan won the match, good show Dan. He was the only one in our squad to come in under time on stage 1, and one of only 3 to come in under time on stage 2. I figure when you're ready, you'll send it.

I'm gonna get a better red dot for the .22, so we can actually see it in the future. The range I shoot at has a roof, so I didn't realize how bad it fades. Also, they don't allow really fast shooting, so I didn't know it would have problems when really pushed. I'm gonna fix that, too. It appears that the bolt is too slow, and not keeping up with a really quick finger. I'll speed it up. The rifled barrel portion is only about 12" long, I had to lighten the bolt up some just to get it to work. Apparently it needs some more lightening. Light bolt+heavy spring=quick action. This is how you speed up or slow down subguns.

blackscot

04-28-08, 06:50

Yeah -- congratulations Dan ! ! ! You were smokin' ! :eek:

Also thanks for the day-loan of the H&K P30. Ran like a champ and felt damn good. Definitely on my to-get short list (maybe later today.....:cool: ). For anyone interested, see my separate thread on the P30 here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13631

Looks like I came in just slightly above the mid-point overall, and likewise on the all-rifle stage 1. Could really tell I hadn't practiced at all since the last match -- that little red dot was bouncing around like a superball (if you remember superballs, you're too old). Looks like one of the other squads wasn't enforcing the stage 1 time limit?

Having to make up 2-3 shotgun hits on stage 2 was enough to make me exceed the time limit there. Almost ranked in the top third on stage 3, even though I had 3 misses with the unfamiliar pistol. Interesting......:rolleyes:

Not sure if I'll make the next couple matches. Work is going to be in full-magnum boogie here for the next couple of months.

Gunfixr

05-12-08, 01:29

Well, I made some changes. I figure if I'm going to be shooting Open class due to using the Saiga, I might as well enjoy the benefits. I'm just gonna use the bigger FAL now, since we're only using rifles on stage 1, and it's more distance with smaller targets. I put that scope which was too big for the shorty FAL on this one, works out good. It's 1.5-6x, with a 42mm front objective and a 30mm tube, so it's real bright. I also custom made a muzzle compensator. For the Saiga, I added a red dot scope.
Took the guns to the range Sun., and sighted in the scopes as well as tested the brake. It works far better than I anticipated. The recoil with standard 7.62mm military surplus ball ammo is less than my .223AR. Seems to be more accurate also. It's loosely based on the tank-like brake used on the 50BMG rifles, just scaled down in size.

blackscot

05-23-08, 10:30

Just got the announcement email, but I'm definitely out this time. Shall be in the middle of a two-week-straight work assignment. Hopefully will have a better shot at getting back in June, or if not then July at the latest.

Y'all be safe, have fun, do well, be safe.

Wayne G.

05-23-08, 11:28

I'm out too. Maybe next month.

Gunfixr

05-24-08, 23:42

I'm planning on being there.

I'll miss you guys, and I'll keep up the front.

Nick S

08-19-08, 15:09

Is this match still active?

BBsound

08-19-08, 15:41

yes..

Nick S

08-19-08, 16:07

The website is down.

Any info regarding schedule, times, round count, rules etc?

Thanks

Nick

blackscot

08-21-08, 06:57

The website is down.

Any info regarding schedule, times, round count, rules etc?

Thanks

Nick

It's back up right now. The next match should be Saturday-week, August 30.

The web site is fairly complete re. your other questions. COF's are usually posted there in advance, as well as emailed to anyone on the distribution list from having attended previously. I'd advise emailing Joe directly using the site link if you have any further questions -- he usually responds promptly.

These have been very good 3-gun matches. Joe is very organized and works hard for everything to run smoothly. I haven't been since April because of work-related time constraints, but hope to get back soon. Definitely recommended.

That being said, I do feel that recent COF's have been somewhat compromised by new range restrictions limiting all rifle to a central area set up for only mid-distance (60-80 yards) shooting. Black Creek's owner is trying to mitigate noise levels and placate anti-shooting neighbors that are increasing in density and proximity. As a consequence though, CQB stages for rifle-caliber carbine have been effectively eliminated.

Joe has tried to compensate for this by incorporating match-provided .22 or pistol-caliber carbines on the shorter range stages. I appreciate his efforts to make the best of things, but for me it's just not the same. I want to shoot my own full-powered carbine, and at close-up targets as well as from 60-80 yards.

Across Virginia, the quality of shooting in general -- and of competition in particular -- continues to be eroded by the increasing flux of outsiders imposing foreign attitudes on our long established lifestyle. The trend (and ultimate consequence) seems irreversible.

So come out and shoot while you still can ! ! !

blackscot

08-22-08, 11:16

From prior-participant email sent this morning:

Folks,

Black Creek will be hosting its next match on Saturday, August 30. Stages 2 and 3 will require the use of ARs with .22LR conversions. Some folks have 10/22s which will serve as well. Each shooter will need to bring at least 50 rounds of HV, solid copper or copper-plated .22LR. Let me know when you sign up if you can/plan to bring your conversion. As before, having at least one per squad will suffice, but the more the merrier and ironed, dotted or scoped will not matter as long as it's zeroed.

Stages are attached. Please send your slot requests to me here. Remember to bring your chamber flags and to magnet check your rifle ammo to be used on Stage 1.

I look forward to seeing you on the 30th.

Joe

Joe's COF's and stage diagrams appear below. Questions? --> email Joe.

Looks like .22 conversions are still in force.......I'm probably going to have to pass.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/Slide11.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/Slide2.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/Slide3.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/Slide4.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/Slide5.jpg

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/Slide6.jpg

blackscot

08-26-08, 07:00

Those of us on the email list got a follow-up saying that you can bring your own pistol-caliber carbine (instead of using the match-provided .22 conversion) for the "quiet stages".

Now if I had a Storm, that might be a thing-to-do!

Robb Jensen

10-02-08, 06:22

Looks like I'll be able to make both the Oct 08 and Nov 08 matches. With the quiet restrictions I may be shooting one of my supressed ARs or my 10/22 with the Nordic Components and my AAC Pilot supressor.

glockshooter

10-02-08, 21:19

That's great. I just hope your belly doesn't start hurting.:) Missed you at recon.

Matt

Robb Jensen

10-02-08, 22:05

That's great. I just hope your belly doesn't start hurting.:) Missed you at recon.

Matt

I'll be there, you better tie a pillow to your butt!

blackscot

10-14-08, 07:12

Not sure whether I'll see you guys there.

Have been mostly out-of-it (shooting that is, as well as generally :o ) since last April. At this point, I'm mostly just trying to get back into the monthly IDPA's at my home range (Cavalier). Cheaper, simpler, quicker, and a lot closer-to-home (10 minutes from my house). If that can't get me to a match, I don't know what will.

I see that the Oct. and Nov. BC3G and Cavalier IDPA are on separate weekends -- that should help. Shall depend on whatever else is happening though.

Maybe if Cavalier ever finishes building Range 5, somebody will want to get rifle/shotgun side matches going again (nudge nudge......you know who you are :p ).

Anyway, good shooting to all! :D

Robb Jensen

10-14-08, 07:24

blackscot

10-14-08, 07:39

That would be way cool.
Hopefully you can make the Oct and Nov Black Creek matches!

You should see Range 5 -- major earth moving back there, like the Great Pyramids! :eek:

I hope they open it soon. Things have been too tame confined to the regular bench-rest ranges.

blackscot

10-27-08, 07:13

I got the scores. Looks like a light turnout: only 16 shooters, and only a couple of names I recognize right off. There appears to have also been a major event at Blackwater this weekend.....maybe a lot of folks were there.

I went to Cavalier's IDPA the next day instead. A nice, easy, couple-hours pistol shoot. Pretty interesting stages considering the time-space limitations. I came in right around middle as usual -- which is fine. Might have done better if I hadn't pressed for speed and dropped a couple of shots ("Now where diddy go? Now where diddy go?")

Topmaul

01-28-09, 23:23

If I don't have to work I'll be there Saturday

kubmiester

01-30-09, 15:40

Their web site isn't updated yet with the 2009 schedule. I called the number on the site and the guy said he didn't think it would start back up until March. Any body know anything different?

http://dominionshootingrange.com/bc3g/

BBsound

01-30-09, 16:26

last Saturday of every month, rain or shine, sun or snow, hell or high water..........that means tomorrow.
:p

Topmaul

01-30-09, 18:35

I am going tomorrow; just for information of people who have not been there in a while it's now a 4 gun match, not exactly with the house gun this time it's a 5 gun match.

Some one who has been shooting there correct me if I'm wrong Stage 2 and 3 require a .22 or pistol caliber carbine. I'll be using my CX4 Storm 9mm carbine.

BBsound

01-30-09, 19:32

Topmaul

02-01-09, 09:57

It was a lot of fun. Had a great time Plan to be regular.

blackscot

02-02-09, 07:42

These are really great, if you've got enough time and enough gear (and yes, it is "multi-gun").

I haven't been able to keep up with it since last Spring -- silly job/boss.......:rolleyes:........Maybe I can pick it back up in retirement.

Congrats to both Robb and Dan -- very respec-ti-ca-ble shows!:

blackscot

03-17-09, 05:57

FYI all -- a little birdie told me that Joe is going to get some kind of 3-gun thing going at Cavalier, once they get Range 5 open there.

Have no further details, other than Range 5 was still closed for construction as of a week ago.

Robb Jensen

03-17-09, 07:19

pgpd3147

08-03-09, 21:45

I've got a noob question. Can I use my Remington 870 police magnum in the competition. I already carry one on duty and I don't really want to buy another one just for matches. Thanks for the help guys!

luxor

08-03-09, 22:59

blackscot

08-10-09, 14:06

That would be cool especially if they did them on Sundays as I work many Saturdays.

Range 5 is now open as of today. There apparently are loose plans for some kind of "multi-gun" matches there on the 5th Sunday of the month, averaging 4 times a year. I'm not involved in any of the doings -- just hearing this as a member there -- so I don't know much else. Shall pass along info as gained though.

Yes you can.

You may need to check out your patterning first though.

BC3G allows field loads only on steel, so depending on the gun, a fairly tight choke such as modified may be needed to achieve adequate knock down at ranges up to 15-20 yards.

I at first replaced my 18-inch cyclinder barrel on my 870 for a 20-inch improved....still not enough umph. Finally another 20-inch barrel with a removable modified choke (this time on an 11-87) was reliably kicking the plates over.

Cavalier used to specify buckshot for steel targets, which largely negated the above problems. If any kind of 3-gun gets going again there, hopefully that will continue to be the case, which allows use of more defense-ready and less competition-specific shotguns.

Robb Jensen

08-18-09, 08:00

The next two weeks will be very busy for me for matches.
Quantico 3gun on 21st, Blackwater 3gun on the 23rd, BlackCreek 3gun on the 29th and Area 8 USPSA on the 30th......But I'm sure they'll all be fun! :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robb-7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/robbforbobro.jpg

blackscot

08-18-09, 10:22

The next two weeks will be very busy for me for matches.......

Go gittum ! ! !

.......BlackCreek 3gun on the 29th.......

I just finished emailing with Joe re. plans for his first multi-gun match at Cavalier, scheduled for the 29th. He plans to send out an announcement shortly.

I have no further information ("I know no-tink.....no-tink.....") other than it will generally follow BC3G, with the exception of no more pistol-caliber carbines. I will forward here whatever info I get.

blackscot

08-20-09, 06:10

.......I will forward here whatever info I get.

In his usually thorough fashion, Joe has posted info on Cavalier's new multi-gun match on the club web site here:

http://www.cavrpc.org/multi-gun.htm

NOTE -- NO IWB HOLSTERS ALLOWED. They most definitely are allowed in IDPA (what I always use), so I'm not sure what the point on this is.

Anyway, most of the rest looks like the same set-up as BC3G, with the exception that pistol-caliber carbines are not included.

I should probably post the link under a separate thread, for the benefit of those not following this one.