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fyeguy
02-28-11, 11:37
Any shooters in the RDU/Fayetteville areas should come by and check out the Gunfighter League (http://gunfighterleague.com/) matches at Range 37 (http://www.range37.com) in Bunnlevel.

Basically a two-gun match (carbine/sidearm) with lots of targets, a few obstacles, and sometimes even pyrotechnics. The scenarios are mixed up from month to month, but count on 3-5 stages with lots of movement and use of cover, several combat training exercises, and a run through the 10 room shoot-house.

Sign up is at 11:00 with the safety brief at 11:45. See GunfighterLeague.com (http://gunfighterleague.com/) for more details.

rak320
03-05-11, 23:38
I shot it today and it was awesome...had a blast...

Grant

fyeguy
03-05-11, 23:59
Glad you made it out Grant, that was a fun match!

Scores are up here (http://gunfighterleague.com/news-scores/).

rak320
03-06-11, 17:26
I was disappointed with my finish..I was one miss from shooting stage one clean...I could of used those 20 secs....awesome match though

fyeguy
03-07-11, 11:22
Yeah, Frankie's scoring system makes it VERY advantageous to shoot smart and accurately.

theblackknight
04-06-11, 09:08
dude, I've been missing out.

Whats the round count for this match, and anything a first timer should know before showing up?

rak320
05-08-11, 21:03
dude, I've been missing out.

Whats the round count for this match, and anything a first timer should know before showing up?

Did you shoot yesterday? It was good times for all...100 rds each is plenty...most fun you can have for $15....

Grant

fyeguy
05-08-11, 21:08
Did you shoot yesterday? It was good times for all...100 rds each is plenty...most fun you can have for $15....

Grant
You got that right. The kill house setup was insane. Probably the best I've seen so far.

Anyone even thinking about it should come by and check it out. Far different from any other matches.

theblackknight
05-09-11, 00:11
Did you shoot yesterday? It was good times for all...100 rds each is plenty...most fun you can have for $15....

Grant

Yeah man, I was the one in the tan interceptor and battle belt in group 2. Who was rockin the M4c shirt and M&P15? welchtactical is one of the RO's, he must have had a bad day cause I finished right behind him on my first match.Find her channel on youtube, he got some helmet cams of the matches.

I think they should turn this style match into a federation like IDPA etc. It would bring the anti gaming crowd out and prob force a few IPSC wieners over to the dark side.

I def learned some valuable stuff.

1:I have no bid'ness with a 300y zero. my head shots from the far port went high and all I saw was berm moving behind the target, thought I was good. other than that, I had one procederal in the house for exposure.

2: row machines,slo runs and rucking arnt enough for cardio. I need to do more sprints w vest.

3:I need to buy a key fob camera, so i can review and learn more from each match

I'm making this priority one as far as matches go.

Brother Rat
05-09-11, 05:41
I shot the matches this weekend as well. Did ok in the Friday Night Fights match and definitely not as well as I wanted in the Gunfighter... oh well, everyone has one of those days. I'm happy with my shooting consistency wise, but the speed just wasn't there for some reason. This is McGraw by the way. Good shooting with y'all!

rob_s
05-09-11, 06:18
I think they should turn this style match into a federation like IDPA etc. It would bring the anti gaming crowd out and prob force a few IPSC wieners over to the dark side.
It looks real similar to what some of us have been doing in Florida for 10+ years. Florida Defensive Carbine Club shoots in Lake City and has been running for over 10 years, South Florida Defensive Carbine Club ("my" match until last month) has been running for over 6, and Central Florida Defensive Carbine Club has been running for over a year.

The problem with founding an actual organization, more than anything else, is that combining scoring systems or determining which is best is like trying to unite the city-states of ancient Greece! :sarcastic:

FDCC and SFDCC operate on a neutralize/failure-to-neutralize scoring system while CFDCC operates on an IDPA scoring system with increased penalties.

However, the scoring system is key to keeping the gamers out. We penalize a shooter 30 seconds for an FTN and 30 seconds for a hit on a non-threat, and 100 seconds for a failure to do right. Most with an extensive background in gaming do NOT like this, and I have been told directly in the past "it was a fun match but I'm not coming back until the scoring system changes".

When I was running things we had two types of stages: scenarios and drills. My scenarios were rarely the stupid IDPA narratives of "you're at the gas station with your family and..." unless it was germane to the stage. For example, we had a shoot house stage and I wanted to impress upon the shooters the need to get through it quickly, so the scenario was that a badguy had your daughter in the back bedroom and you needed to get to her.

After doing this for six years I have a lot of opinions about what makes for good stage design, and categorizing them into those two groups goes a long way towards this.

fyeguy
05-09-11, 10:26
Yeah man, I was the one in the tan interceptor and battle belt in group 2. Who was rockin the M4c shirt and M&P15? welchtactical is one of the RO's, he must have had a bad day cause I finished right behind him on my first match.Find her channel on youtube, he got some helmet cams of the matches.
OK, you were in my squad then.


I think they should turn this style match into a federation like IDPA etc. It would bring the anti gaming crowd out and prob force a few IPSC wieners over to the dark side.

I def learned some valuable stuff.
I think that's the long term idea. You really can't go into it with a gaming attitude. Yes, it's a timed event but in many ways it's a class as much as it's a competition.


1:I have no bid'ness with a 300y zero. my head shots from the far port went high and all I saw was berm moving behind the target, thought I was good. other than that, I had one procederal in the house for exposure.
Try a 50 yard battle zero. IMHO it's one of the most functional. Unless I'm doing close in head-shots I just put my dot in the center of my target and press the trigger.

2: row machines,slo runs and rucking arnt enough for cardio. I need to do more sprints w vest.
I imagine the amount of obstacles and sprints are only going to increase!


I shot the matches this weekend as well. Did ok in the Friday Night Fights match and definitely not as well as I wanted in the Gunfighter... oh well, everyone has one of those days. I'm happy with my shooting consistency wise, but the speed just wasn't there for some reason. This is McGraw by the way. Good shooting with y'all!
Good shooting with you as well!

fyeguy
05-09-11, 10:49
However, the scoring system is key to keeping the gamers out. We penalize a shooter 30 seconds for an FTN and 30 seconds for a hit on a non-threat, and 100 seconds for a failure to do right. Most with an extensive background in gaming do NOT like this, and I have been told directly in the past "it was a fun match but I'm not coming back until the scoring system changes".
Agreed. The scoring system has been evolving since we ran the first match. Procedurals (which are loosely defined as 'anything that will get you kilt in combat') are compounding. One goof will cost you 10 seconds, the next will cost you 20, and on and on. You cannot win by blazing through the course. On top of that, if you shoot clean (no misses, no non-threat hits, no procedurals) you get a 20 second bonus. Really makes you slow down a bit and concentrate on tactics and accuracy.

Target zone is basically a six-inch strip up the center of the body from forehead to pelvis. You can put 50 rounds into a target, but if you don't get two in the scoring area you missed. Non-threats are typically positioned to make for some tricky shots.


When I was running things we had two types of stages: scenarios and drills. My scenarios were rarely the stupid IDPA narratives of "you're at the gas station with your family and..." unless it was germane to the stage. For example, we had a shoot house stage and I wanted to impress upon the shooters the need to get through it quickly, so the scenario was that a badguy had your daughter in the back bedroom and you needed to get to her.
The Gunfighter League usually consists of:

1) One large stage that requires lots of movement, obstacles, target discrimination, and transitions.

2) 3-5 CTEs (Combat Task Evaluations) that change through the course of the year. Two-gun el pres, panic drills, one-shot draws, etc.

3) Blind kill-house stage. Similar to what you mention, one man enters and has to work his way to the back of the house while navigating corners, portals, and obstacles. Get's the adrenaline pumping. 37's kill house is really the coolest thing that anyone not in the military can do with a gun.

wahoo95
05-09-11, 10:55
I'm gonna make this match at some point over the next couple of months. Should have a few people with me as well.

rob_s
05-09-11, 11:19
Agreed. The scoring system has been evolving since we ran the first match. Procedurals (which are loosely defined as 'anything that will get you kilt in combat') are compounding. One goof will cost you 10 seconds, the next will cost you 20, and on and on. You cannot win by blazing through the course. On top of that, if you shoot clean (no misses, no non-threat hits, no procedurals) you get a 20 second bonus. Really makes you slow down a bit and concentrate on tactics and accuracy.
I LIKE the compounding procedural thing! Very cool!

Given our 30-seconds per FTN and NT, we pretty much automatically wind up with a bonus for shooting it clean. When you view our scores you typically have the clean-shooters at the top, and just about anyone that gets an FTN or NT is out of the running.


Target zone is basically a six-inch strip up the center of the body from forehead to pelvis. You can put 50 rounds into a target, but if you don't get two in the scoring area you missed. Non-threats are typically positioned to make for some tricky shots.

We use IDPA targets, in part because the parent club is IDPA and we get them "free". 2 shots in the -0, or 3 shots in the -1 (or better) counts as "neutralized". 27 hits in the -3 gets you nothing. Examples of neutralized targets can be seen in our rules here (http://tssaidpa.us/wordpress/index.php/sfdcc/sfdcc-orientation-qualification/).

What I really, really want to use are these targets (http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=USMC-SRQ), and we did once but they got cost-prohibitive and with the paper targets it gets hard to score. I looked into getting these zones perforated into these carboards (http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=BOBBER) but it got REALLY expensive. When we used the paper, we made the ocular/nasal and the center circle of the chest the same as the current -0 (2 shots) and the rest of the head and the outer tear-drop in the chest the same as the -1 (3 shots). IMO it had exactly the desired effect.

Alternately, going forward I had plans to change to the USPSA target with the torso A-zone cut in half so only the top section counts. I personally think most competition targets are too lenient.

I've avoided linking the head and chest scoring zones in part because I want to force people to continue to work on hold-overs at various distances. I have gotten some flack for not having a spinal column hit count, but the tradeoff has been worth it for me.

I don't mean to hijack your thread here. This has been a passion of mine for the past 6 years. Just before I quit I even went to 3D COF design to help the setup crew visualize the intent, and we started publishing COF to the email list prior to the matches unless the stages were intended to be "blind". If you ever want to compare notes or would prefer to continue the discussion off the forum please feel free to email me at rob AT tacticalyellowvisor DOT net. I love talking about this stuff as I find other people's approaches to the same goal fascinating. Eventually I'll get back into running these kind of matches, even if at a different venue than my old one.

rob_s
05-09-11, 11:23
2) 3-5 CTEs (Combat Task Evaluations) that change through the course of the year. Two-gun el pres, panic drills, one-shot draws, etc.

I had a goal of establishing six standards such that we would run each one 2 times per year and allow the shooters to track their own progress on the standards. Unfortunately I had a lot of offers of help but essentially ran the show alone for most of the time because it was hard to find someone that shared my vision for the events and even when people did step up I wound not liking their direction (like pushing competition, IMHO "quantity", over good fundamentals, IMHO "quality"). Just never had the time to set up to track these and establish what they would be. Obviously with the explosion of training drills of late there is no shortage of material now. 9-hole, 1-5, gear shift, etc.

fyeguy
05-09-11, 11:55
I LIKE the compounding procedural thing! Very cool!

Given our 30-seconds per FTN and NT, we pretty much automatically wind up with a bonus for shooting it clean. When you view our scores you typically have the clean-shooters at the top, and just about anyone that gets an FTN or NT is out of the running.
Sounds familiar.


What I really, really want to use are these targets (http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=USMC-SRQ), and we did once but they got cost-prohibitive and with the paper targets it gets hard to score
That's a good looking target. Right now we're using modified IPSC targets, but I think eventually we'll have some custom ones made up.


Alternately, going forward I had plans to change to the USPSA target with the torso A-zone cut in half so only the top section counts. I personally think most competition targets are too lenient.

I've avoided linking the head and chest scoring zones in part because I want to force people to continue to work on hold-overs at various distances. I have gotten some flack for not having a spinal column hit count, but the tradeoff has been worth it for me.

Agreed but I think you've got to be a little creative here, we're trying to establish a high accuracy standard, but at the same time you don't want to turn it into a bulls-eye competition.

I don't mean to hijack your thread here. This has been a passion of mine for the past 6 years.
No problem, we just want to make each match better than the last.

fyeguy
05-09-11, 12:06
I had a goal of establishing six standards such that we would run each one 2 times per year and allow the shooters to track their own progress on the standards. Unfortunately I had a lot of offers of help but essentially ran the show alone for most of the time because it was hard to find someone that shared my vision for the events and even when people did step up I wound not liking their direction (like pushing competition, IMHO "quantity", over good fundamentals, IMHO "quality"). Just never had the time to set up to track these and establish what they would be. Obviously with the explosion of training drills of late there is no shortage of material now. 9-hole, 1-5, gear shift, etc.
I think it's super important to give a way for the shooter to gauge their progress month to month. The number of competitors and the level of competition is going to vary, but you can always try to beat your own last effort.

The CTE's (http://gunfighterleague.com/csse-stages/) we use are based on the drills Frankie (http://www.raidontactics.com/trainers.html) used for his course of instruction at Bragg's Counter-Terrorism School (SFARTEC?). They're nothing you haven't seen before, but it give the shooter a chance to test himself at the same particular task across multiple matches.

Plus, they're just flat-out fun. No tactics, no prohibitive classes or divisions, just straight up, unforgiving weapons manipulation drills

rak320
05-09-11, 12:51
I was the tall goofy guy rockin' the M4C shirt!!!
I really like shooting these matches with iron sights...does that make me weird? The scoring system is great, I finished second to SPANKIE..but didnt shoot any stages clean.( was close on the barricade stage though) I might run an optic next month.....what's up McGraw???

Grant

tb-av
05-09-11, 15:05
Hey fyeguy, slightly ot perhaps... but possibly a member of your club?

Saw him on I95 today.

NC plates - GUNFYTER

Jeff Franz
05-09-11, 15:15
Can't make it in June, but hope to be there in July. I've heard great things about the match and look forward to shooting it.

Wahoo, maybe we can meet up and ride over together once I can make it. I'm sure Steve would be in as well.

fyeguy
05-09-11, 15:17
A Gunfighter League match would be right up your alley Jeff.

Jeff Franz
05-09-11, 15:26
A Gunfighter League match would be right up your alley Jeff.

That's what I hear. Plus, it would be great to shoot with you again. Perhaps you can travel over to our little match the third Saturday of every month in Lexington. The only thing better than shooting one match a month is shooting two.

fyeguy
05-09-11, 15:30
That's what I hear. Plus, it would be great to shoot with you again. Perhaps you can travel over to our little match the third Saturday of every month in Lexington. The only thing better than shooting one match a month is shooting two.
Very true. Would love to, IM/PM/FB the info over.

rob_s
05-10-11, 09:19
Checked out the Gunfighter page last night. Rules seem very similar to what we've been running with a few minor tweaks. Maybe when I get back up and running we'll start a "Gunfighter - South".

Or I'll just call it "come out with Rob and shoot some shit". :sarcastic:

fyeguy
05-10-11, 11:24
Checked out the Gunfighter page last night. Rules seem very similar to what we've been running with a few minor tweaks. Maybe when I get back up and running we'll start a "Gunfighter - South".
I'll get you our address so you know where to send the licensing checks. :D

Welch has a bunch of videos on his YouTube Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/welchtactical).

theblackknight
05-22-11, 18:19
OK, you were in my squad then.




Try a 50 yard battle zero. IMHO it's one of the most functional. Unless I'm doing close in head-shots I just put my dot in the center of my target and press the trigger.




I zeroed at 100 last weekend and did the S IBZO soo 6/3 -2 is my 100 zero.

theblackknight
05-22-11, 18:21
I was the tall goofy guy rockin' the M4C shirt!!!
I really like shooting these matches with iron sights...does that make me weird? The scoring system is great, I finished second to SPANKIE..

Grant


naw man, I'm running irons too.

theblackknight
05-22-11, 18:25
I wont be there in June, doing alittle OpFor work all month. I'll be getting some good AK practice in tho:D

wahoo95
05-22-11, 20:46
I'll definitely be rolling out their for this one in June, but July will be a no go for me Jeff as that's the same weekend as my family reunion.

Glock Star
05-22-11, 23:39
I'll definitely be rolling out their for this one in June, but July will be a no go for me Jeff as that's the same weekend as my family reunion.

I'll be with wahoo in June but traveling in July.

Danny Boy
06-12-11, 08:11
A Marine buddy of mine attended the one that just passed. He said it was awesome. I can't wait to get back for one in August.

wahoo95
06-12-11, 09:45
I rode out there with 3 others and we all had a great time. We'll definitely be coming back for another match.

theblackknight
06-29-11, 22:18
Ill be back out next weekend. who wants to squad up????

theblackknight
07-10-11, 18:12
Vid of july's gunfighter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-m8Pkeu4bw

fyeguy
07-21-11, 17:19
Great video! We were moving that day so I couldn't make it... will definitely be out for the August match.

wahoo95
08-06-11, 18:58
Great match today, nice to finally meet wahoo.

Nice meeting you as well. I had a blast and I am looking forward to making the trip back out there in the near future.

fyeguy
08-06-11, 19:39
Great match today, nice to finally meet wahoo.

theblackknight
09-05-11, 15:44
I took the shorter, "quicker" way of US 421 this time to get to the match from here in Wilmington. I missed all the holiday traffic but got stopped twice by the cops for random holiday traffic stops(thats what they told me). I walked into the pro shop @ 12:02 and the lady at the counter said frankie had taken all the sheets at high noon. So I got turned away. I've been shooting this match for the last 6 months, and I make the 226 mile round trip to do it, only to get turned away?

I won't be making the trip anymore.

fyeguy
09-08-11, 07:58
I took the shorter, "quicker" way of US 421 this time to get to the match from here in Wilmington. I missed all the holiday traffic but got stopped twice by the cops for random holiday traffic stops(thats what they told me). I walked into the pro shop @ 12:02 and the lady at the counter said frankie had taken all the sheets at high noon. So I got turned away. I've been shooting this match for the last 6 months, and I make the 226 mile round trip to do it, only to get turned away?

I won't be making the trip anymore.
That's a bummer man. I know he's got to be pretty strict about start times, as we started to get guys showing up as late as 2:30 expecting to shoot. You should have asked to talk to him as he most likely would have let you shoot.

In the future he does allow to the front desk to register people in advance if they are running a little late and call ahead of time.

theblackknight
09-08-11, 18:59
I like the match, but not that much,and I usually take people to mean what they say.

The problem is I'm not home enough to warrant paying some of the range memberships around here. The local sherrif range here is 20 mins up the road and 25$ a year for a nice range, but they want 100$ to do a background check on me when I have a CCW and a ****ing SECRET clearance( i realize that dosent mean much, but it does mean something). Thats ****ing robbery. For 100$, I can drive a little bit more and go to Ant Hill, which is like a damm golf course, with lots of training bays and steel target to use.

fyeguy
10-01-11, 17:57
Great match today!

Kodiak
06-03-12, 19:34
I Went to the Gunfighter (http://gunfighterleague.com/) match in Bunnlevel, NC yesterday and had a great time! The staff and other shooters there are a great bunch of people. I have zero tactical skills so these matches are teaching me a lot. It's also nice to have Frankie teach a basic class on the stage he ran.

I never realized the level of situational awareness and knowledge necessary to CORRECTLY fight on a Warfighter's level! Whoever thought that walking and shooting at static targets would be so difficult?!? There are so many ways to do it wrong, it's not funny. I'm just happy that Frankie (http://raidontactics.com/company/our-instructors/) was there after the stage to correct me and show me the right way! This was the stage he taught the class.

The shoot house was great. It really showed me that a threat can be ANYWHERE! I would have been shot twice had they been real BG's. I've read various debates on whether you should clear your home or not if an intrude is in your home. I see now why there are so many detractors to clearing your home. I can't convey the feelings as I walked out of the shoot house. It was fun, lots and lots of fun. I know I had a big grin on my face. At the same time it was sobering to know that there are men and women that do this "for real" and they don't lose points, they lose their life!

The "long" stage involved getting out of a SUV, shooting two pop up targets, stay behind cover and engaging three or four targets. You then had run to a ladder, climb up and engage three targets, come down the ladder and run back to cover. There you engage three or four targets. It's not over yet, you then run to a low barricade, lay down and engage three targets. I'm sure I forgot everything I learned (what little of it) but had a wonderful time. On a side note to this match, I also learned about kit (gear) set up. What I had and used worked OK. Not great, just OK. I see now that there are certain things I need to change to make my kit "better". The match was also a walking gear store. Everyone had something different and unique to their needs and I got to see in action what seemed to work and what didn't.

I WILL be coming back for another match. My goal is to be a prepared American. Prepared for what? Anything that comes along that infringes on my or my families rights and freedoms.

rak320
06-03-12, 23:38
I Went to the Gunfighter (http://gunfighterleague.com/) match in Bunnlevel, NC yesterday and had a great time! The staff and other shooters there are a great bunch of people. I have zero tactical skills so these matches are teaching me a lot. It's also nice to have Frankie teach a basic class on the stage he ran.

I never realized the level of situational awareness and knowledge necessary to CORRECTLY fight on a Warfighter's level! Whoever thought that walking and shooting at static targets would be so difficult?!? There are so many ways to do it wrong, it's not funny. I'm just happy that Frankie (http://raidontactics.com/company/our-instructors/) was there after the stage to correct me and show me the right way! This was the stage he taught the class.

The shoot house was great. It really showed me that a threat can be ANYWHERE! I would have been shot twice had they been real BG's. I've read various debates on whether you should clear your home or not if an intrude is in your home. I see now why there are so many detractors to clearing your home. I can't convey the feelings as I walked out of the shoot house. It was fun, lots and lots of fun. I know I had a big grin on my face. At the same time it was sobering to know that there are men and women that do this "for real" and they don't lose points, they lose their life!

The "long" stage involved getting out of a SUV, shooting two pop up targets, stay behind cover and engaging three or four targets. You then had run to a ladder, climb up and engage three targets, come down the ladder and run back to cover. There you engage three or four targets. It's not over yet, you then run to a low barricade, lay down and engage three targets. I'm sure I forgot everything I learned (what little of it) but had a wonderful time. On a side note to this match, I also learned about kit (gear) set up. What I had and used worked OK. Not great, just OK. I see now that there are certain things I need to change to make my kit "better". The match was also a walking gear store. Everyone had something different and unique to their needs and I got to see in action what seemed to work and what didn't.

I WILL be coming back for another match. My goal is to be a prepared American. Prepared for what? Anything that comes along that infringes on my or my families rights and freedoms.


Frankie runs a great match. Its fun and you learn stuff everytime out.....I wish I could of made it...I'll be there come the fall.

Grant

zekus480
11-23-13, 00:40
Good morning all, I'm reviving this thread to get NC members that have not been to Friday Night Fights (1st Friday of the month) or Infidel Gunfighter League (1st Saturday of the month) out to shoot. There's a lot of really good people there from Responsible Citizens, LEO's, and Mil guys. All are welcome to come check out my BCM fanboy build to my buddy's War Sport Industries LVOA. We try and get those that can to go to grab a bite in Fayetteville and later have a few beers at Paddy's that night. Come on out to shoot, test your skills, talk guns and lie about fish and women! 21590