View Full Version : Are you prepared for civil unrest?
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misanthropist
07-18-11, 00:07
Your post here says either beans and bullets OR passport and money. My point is to have both. Your argument isn't very clear.
This also doesn't take into account that many Americans would likely have issue with abandoning their country. That is however an individual choice.
I am using an either/or example to illustrate that there are different ways to prioritize. In that situation, if you could only have one or the other, you'd probably be better off with money and passports. That is not an argument that it's a bad idea to have guns.
"I am not arguing that being in Canada is a solution...I am arguing that mobility is a good defense against massive, long-term civil unrest. "
Right after Hurricane Katrina ravaged the gulf coast, Hurricane Rita was approaching Houston. People hauled ass... or, tried to do so. It was Lord of the Flies on the highways... grid lock and peoples mobility plans went to crap in a hurry...
I definitely agree that if you wait until after the shit hits the fan to try to deal with it, you will have serious problems. If you're going to bail, bail ahead of the herd, not inside it.
In that case I would rather have the ability to feed myself and protect myself than run away to uncertainty. To each their own.
I am using an either/or example to illustrate that there are different ways to prioritize. In that situation, if you could only have one or the other, you'd probably be better off with money and passports. That is not an argument that it's a bad idea to have guns.
I definitely agree that if you wait until after the shit hits the fan to try to deal with it, you will have serious problems. If you're going to bail, bail ahead of the herd, not inside it.
This is a good point. What & when is your "trigger" to leave the country if that's your plan? Most folks value their jobs especially in this economy. Pulling the plug too soon & leaving your employer/business behind could mean you can't come back. I hope that we, the people who research this issue and prepare for it, will know a little before the average clueless schmuck to do what we have to do. You say "If you wait until after SHTF" like it's a guaranteed choice? Say things get messy quickly due to a natural disaster? You're at work across town, so is the wife, & the kids are in different schools. See how long it takes when the freeway is a parking lot to round up the family. Then make the commute to the airport and hope you can get tickets assuming air traffic is running at all. Like I mentioned earlier, get your average clueless family in a state of panic about a coming disaster & watch the pandemonium set in.
Our SHTF destination is either on a friends farm 1/2 hour away or simply staying put at home. We have our own resources at both locations. In the event of a flase alarm, I could choose to go back to my business the next day if so desired with little to no reprocussions. But, we're not planning on catching a plane to exit the country either. Some guys that I know would be fired instantly if they walked out on their jobs. I assume most people are in that situation.
Logicalpath
07-18-11, 01:30
For a large number of the population, surviving long enough to the point where there is a new currency will be available isn't going to happen.
Do you plan on being one of those people? If not then I suggest you get your gold up! LOL, seriously I just think if you're going to plan then you have to follow it through to it's logical conclusion. I'm merely using history as my guide. That said, as someone else pointed out, if you have a skill that can be marketed even during the "primitive stages"(as I describe it) then you'll be able to request whatever the currency becomes eventually. So there are different ways to plan, I just would not discount what was money for a period of 6000 years if you can get your hands on it.
Logicalpath
07-18-11, 01:32
Very well written. That is the exact point that I was trying to make. When money is reintroduced 1 oz of precious metal will be worth x number of dollars. If you have the shiny stuff you can get the new green stuff.
If "new green stuff" is introduced I may end up blowing my brains out because we'd just be walking down the same path that led to this! Sound money is the number one way to stop Gov't from encroaching and limit it's spending. And they can't print the social welfare money to create a dependency class...
Logicalpath
07-18-11, 01:40
Your post here says either beans and bullets OR passport and money. My point is to have both. Your argument isn't very clear.
That's part of what I'm saying as well...with regard to "actual money" that is.
This also doesn't take into account that many Americans would likely have issue with abandoning their country. That is however an individual choice.
Amen, I believe it was Reagan which said, "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.".
The full quote really puts things in context on this subject matter:
Not too long ago, two friends of mine were talking to a Cuban refugee, a businessman who had escaped from Castro, and in the midst of his story one of my friends turned to the other and said, "We don't know how lucky we are." And the Cuban stopped and said, "How lucky you are? I had someplace to escape to." And in that sentence he told us the entire story. If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.
Link to entire speech (http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/timechoosing.html)
Do you plan on being one of those people? If not then I suggest you get your gold up! LOL, seriously I just think if you're going to plan then you have to follow it through to it's logical conclusion. I'm merely using history as my guide. That said, as someone else pointed out, if you have a skill that can be marketed even during the "primitive stages"(as I describe it) then you'll be able to request whatever the currency becomes eventually. So there are different ways to plan, I just would not discount what was money for a period of 6000 years if you can get your hands on it.
I don't plan on being one of those people but to say it can't happen is foolish. I do have precious metals on hand although they do rank lower on the priority list. Silver not gold. It's easier to distribute due to it's lower value per size than gold. I'm a welding contractor & my 4wd diesel rig is set up with a 500 amp weld output diesel generator, 17KW power output in single & 3 phase, plus O/A torch set, & numerous power & hand tools. I believe my skills & equipment would provide valueable in the times were discussing. No worries in that dept.
Logicalpath
07-18-11, 01:49
I don't plan on being one of those people but to say it can't happen is foolish.
Understood, I just thought I would introduce a little humor.
I do have precious metals on hand although they do rank lower on the priority list. Silver not gold. It's easier to distribute due to it's lower value per size than gold. I'm a welding contractor & my 4wd diesel rig is set up with a 500 amp weld output diesel generator, 17KW power output in single & 3 phase, plus O/A torch set, & numerous power & hand tools. I believe my skills & equipment would provide valueable in the times were discussing. No worries in that dept.
Now we're talking! That's actually a good way to plan, once banking was introduced(from a historical perspective) many people would keep their gold stored and their silver on hand. Only utilizing the gold to make large purchases, while utilizing the silver for "everyday" trading, so you have the right idea.
Just a Jarhead
07-18-11, 03:30
Consider Haiti at the moment. That is a place where the shit hit the fan HARD pretty recently, and a place which didn't have much going for it in the first place. I think things would have to slide really, really, absurdly far for the US to be worse than Haiti is right now.
I gotta say it too...along with MikeG...I find the level of naivity insane. Who on god's green earth do you think made sure the savages in Haiti didn't hack each other apart with machete's (cause they don't have guns) and eat each other...how about US and British troops. The Haitian goverment disappeared. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/world/americas/20haiti.html?pagewanted=all
Had we not interceded, lord only knows how many would have been killed. The vast rapes are common knowledge.
Just a Jarhead
07-18-11, 03:38
I would storngly advise those that have a bug out retreat, farm etc to go to, a plan to quickly flee there as well if you are overrun is prudent. The nightmarish stories from Zimbabwe's collapse tell the farms were overrun quickly and thousands killed. Mulitple plans!
Noveske808
07-18-11, 03:43
cHECK OuT ThiS liNk
http://www.youtube.com/user/nutnfancy?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/0/SCM3eb3ypkk
misanthropist
07-18-11, 09:33
I gotta say it too...along with MikeG...I find the level of naivity insane. Who on god's green earth do you think made sure the savages in Haiti didn't hack each other apart with machete's (cause they don't have guns) and eat each other...how about US and British troops. The Haitian goverment disappeared. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/world/americas/20haiti.html?pagewanted=all
Had we not interceded, lord only knows how many would have been killed. The vast rapes are common knowledge.
I don't disagree that there would have been lots of killing. But what I do think is that a) historically, you have more to fear from cholera and dysentery than other people, even though other people are a serious threat, and b) no matter which threat is more immediate, if I were in Haiti, I think I'd be better off leaving and going to any first-world country than having any amount of supplies to help me stay in place.
I am not at all against conventional preparations...I have lots. I am just also in favour of strategic thinking in regards to bailing out of your country. I think a lot of people fixate on the idea of surviving the local conditions by dealing with them after the fact.
But avoidance is also a good approach. I don't claim that everyone will always know ahead of time and that other countries will always be better off and that retreat will always be an option.
But that's true of any plan; you can't shoot your way out of every problem and we all know that people who advocate being armed don't think they'll solve all their problems with guns. My belief in international mobility doesn't mean I think it's the solution for everything, every time. Just that it is useful and frequently overlooked.
When people ask me what I expect, long term, in a social collapse in America, I tell them to look south. I think that it will be a brief violent shock to the system, and it will be bloody. The large black populations that rely on welfare and entitlement programs (if that makes me racist, than Katrina didn't happen) will do what they have done and spill out and look to take. The "downtrodden" Mexican population on our border states will use the lack of govt to pour bodies and drugs across our border to annex parts of the US.
However, I think that what we can hopefully expect after a few years, or maybe months, is that some normalcy will be restored. We are creatures of habit, and we are forward thinkers. We will rebuild local industries, our utility workers who have been keeping the town running for years will wake up and go to work. In fact, I think the people who need to worry are the ones who have made a profession out of intangibles. Bankers, stock brokers, accountants, those that make a living off of moving imaginary numbers. There will be no need for them, and they will have a hard time finding a useful role in a budding society.
Weapons are a must, because we will walywas be willing to fight and kill for what we need. If we are successful, we can bet that someone who is struggling will try to take what we have. Daily life will mirror countries many of us have seen in the ME and LATAM, a guy with an AK or rifle is nothing out of the ordinary, a local militia presence, etc. But I think life will go back to normal, because we will also adapt to the threat of violence and death, and we will progress.
You can't seriously compare a disaster here to what happened in places like Haiti. Haiti went from piles of shit stacked up, to piles of shit strewn on the ground. It seemed worse because Americans looked at how far their new reality compared to ours, which is unrealistic. To say that because they didn't completely fall apart, we won't, is flawed. They were already fallen apart. The culture shock in the US is what is going to drive the worst destruction. I think we can expect to see daily life mirroring Mexico. The will be haves, and have nots. There will be violence in the streets between factions trying to control local and national areas. And when the shooting dies down, we will step back outside and keep walking to the little market on the corner run by a family, because we NEED everything to be normal, even if it isn't. I think people will join factions and fight for the lure of preotection and money. And I think those of us that are planning to be an armed resistance in defense of life only will always exist. And even more like Mexico, nobody will want us. No other country will take Americans, hell, most of the countries that tolerate us now are only doing it to honor trade agreements. If we have nothing to offer, the world will take this long awaited opportunity to laugh at the greatest super power on it's death bed.
And lastly, I do know that gold has it's place. It just isn't a big part of my plan. I have no intentions of running away to Aruba or somewhere, but I will pack light because I think moving around will be key in the early stages. 20 years worth of gold and metals doesn't fit into that plan. But I'm not worried, because unlike some members of this board, there are a LOT of people who have only planned as far as gold. What do you wager they will pay me some to escort them, guide them, keep them alive. Shit, I get paid for that now, I can't wait until I get to choose the higher bidder:smile:
I love this thread, a lot of variables I need to focus on. I really enjoy level headed conversations about this, and again, I see a common theme that some of us will be here when the dust settles. Those are the kind of people that built this country, and who need to remain to start it up again.
Interesting discussion the last few pages. I'd like to throw out a few points in regards to relocating internationally and escaping the pending monetary collapse inside CONUS. The list is in no particular order I just thought it might be easier to write and read in bullet points.
1. Italy, Spain, Greece and Ireland are all set to implode economically. When this happens the EU will be in a state of chaos and their entitlement scheme will collapse around their ears with people rioting throughout the continent. This will create a huge impact on the rest of the world. Like it or not the U.S. is not independent of the rest of the globe, especially economically, and they are currently facing worse problems than us.
2. If we were to have some sort of economic and social collapse what makes you think your U.S. dollars are going to be worth anything outside of the states? If your money's worth garbage here it's going to be worth less OCONUS and it's rather hard to survive in a foreign country without a viable means of providing for one's self.
3. Will you be welcome in another country? There are many places around the globe where Americans are not welcome and this is growing larger every day. This is due in part to dropping bombs on 6 other countries currently and starting wars around the world, no matter what the POTUS calls them the rest of the world deems it as starting wars and they don't like us bombing women and children and calling them "casualties of war". Like it or not the people with the "America, **** yeah!" attitude and **** those people over there type of thinking do not fair very well in other countries. Working for multiple companies traveling internationally, with other Americans from different parts of our country, I can tell you for a fact that an easy going, sympathetic attitude towards the poor of the world gets you a lot further in the rest of the world.
4. Where will you live? Unless you have a place already you may find it incredibly difficult to find a place to live due to your worthless currency, attitude towards Americans, etc. For the struggling people in other countries you will be a prime target or victime for crime. You will not have the freedom and access to firearms that you currently have and that is a fact. You will also not be treated by police, .Gov and agencies of that nature in the same way that the local person will, regardless of guilt or circumstances.
5. What will you live on? Your 401k, retirement, etc is gone! Try finding a job or a means of support in a foreign country where you may or may not speak the language. Are they willing to hire an American? Do you realize how much common everyday expenses are in your country of choice? Cars, computers and anything needing to be imported typically have huge taxes, VAT and penalties attached to the price. Try paying double the cost that you'd typically pay in the states for a vehicle and fuel costs.
6. How will you make friends and integrate? No man is an island. Do you know the local political philosophy? Do you know the country's history and the trials and tribulations that the indigenous people have seen? Many countries have a large contingent of poor people and they are often looked upon as the down trodden and not the scumbags on welfare as we do here. You will also have to learn local customs such as national holidays, new codes of conduct, morals and how to conduct yourself so that you fit in.
7. How will you stay healthy? Depending on the country, a lot have socialized medicine, you may not be able to afford medical care and it may not be provided "free" as it is to the locals. I was in the far north of Canada in Ft. McMurray and needed to get my arm looked at due to a really weird pain. A Canadian citizen would've been free but they wanted to charge me nearly $600, be forewarned.
I've personally spent many, many months without an end in sight in the fun and remote places of the Peruvian mountains, Argentina, Brazilian Amazon and Trinidad & Tobago. Living in a foreign country for an extended period of time is much more different and difficult than most people realize. Even local food can be a considerable challenge for some who aren't used to the local delicacies. Do you like guinea pig, BBQ chicken hearts, burritos with chicken bones inside? All this and plenty more awaits! Gotta run, have a good day!
4x4twenty6
07-18-11, 11:00
SOW_0331
How dare you speak such truths about those poor black(all others races are included too) folks in the south during Katrina!
They had no warning and no way to get out! There 88 Oldsomobile and chevy caprice on 22" just happened to not run that day and the money they made from selling weed went to buy more weed and liquor and food stamps went to food for the bar b que and hurricane party. How dare you condemn them for not heeding the warning they got for an entire week prior to landfall!!
(ok that was immense sarcasm by the way)^^^^^
I'm from there and was there so I can say these things.
People stayed for the wrong reasons!
People stayed because they didn't think it was going to be bad and wanted to protect their belongings from ^.
Very very few did not have the means to escape. If you don't believe me, you are naive and hadn't seen what happens when people stay and the hurricane does not make landfall and cause destruction like Katrina. I have been there and my old man was with NOPD for 28 years in the lower 9th ward. So glad he retired in 2003. I have a lot first hand experience so challenge me if you must.
NO is a city like no other. It seems like it is beyond repair. Which is partly why me and my wife left 2 months ago.
These people feel like they are entitled to all life sustaining things. They are dependent on the gov't and have been for multiple generations. They have no qualms about destroying their neighborhood to get their point across and the gov't fixes it and continues to allow them suckle On their tit at our expense. Look at their priorities, cadillacs and tv's in a city w/ 6ft+ of water.
RogerinTPA
07-18-11, 11:14
As far as world currencies are concerned, I stocked up on gold, silver, euros & pounds (sterling) starting several years ago. I still buy euros and pounds when I get a chance. At the rate our country is going, ammo and fuel of every kind, would be at a higher premium and hold more value, than a future devalued dollar.
Wow this thread blew up over the past couple days...alot of good posts and some that are fantasy based...but as they say, different strokes for different folks :D
The following is talking about an economic collapse that affects the nation as a whole. For the sake of argument, I'm not addressing local disasters, tho some of the following can apply. I believe that in an economic collapse, you will be able to see it coming over the course of days, weeks, months. After the economy "officially" collapses, I believe that you will have about 3-7 days before things start to get really bad (riots, looting, ect.) This is taking into account how long the food will last in stores, and the "lag time" before people start getting desperate.
Gold/Silver
This SHOULD be a part of your preparedness plan, but should not be front and center. Water, Food, Shelter, and Security should be first and foremost...in pretty much that order. If your budget doesn't allow for stocking up on gold or silver, I wouldn't sweat it. You can't eat it, so it will not solve short term survival needs anyway. If you feel that you are at a level of preparedness where you are "comfortable" and want to store some gold and silver, then I think that would be a good idea for the long term because I believe that if the economy collapses then you can bet that the dollar will be history as well.
Bugging Out
Bugging out to the wild, living off the land, playing Rambo, ect. is all fantasy. There are only maybe .000001 percent (not a real statistic...just used for illustrative purpose) of people out there who would be able to survive long term if they were to bug out to the woods like many survivalist like talk (fantasize) about.
Bugging out to another country...well if you have the means to do so, AND you have a place in mind that you have ALREADY set up, or have major connections in, then yeah MAYBE that would be feasible. But I am willing to bet that if the US economy goes down, then it will be a domino effect around the world. We are a "global economy" these days. Everyone relies on everyone else. It has been this way since the Bretton Woods agreement after WWII and the creation of the IMF and World Bank and all the trade agreements/alliances/unions that happened afterwards. So you better choose wisely.
Bugging out to a rural "retreat" (if you already don't live there full time) is IMO the best option....the downside is that it is expensive to do something like this. If you go this route, you still have to be smart about it. Assuming you don't live there already, you have to do a few things to make this work:
1) Be sure to get there before cities become gridlocked (think Rita and how the highways were during the evac...only this time, there will be riots, roadblocks, ect. as well)
2) Have your supplies stored there (this should be obvious) and have supplies at your full time home that would cover maybe a month or so just in case you get stuck. Ideally, you won't have to leave much behind because you will get out early and be able to pack it all out in vehicles. Going by foot is a whole 'nother problem.
3) Have enough people at the retreat to provide security and do the everyday tasks that would be required...and be sure to have enough food to feed them (obviously).
4) Have MULTIPLE routes out of the city that will get you to your retreat.
5) I'm sure there are more, but that's all I got for now
Bugging In
If you're in the inner city, forget about it. You have a much better chance if you are in the suburbs or slightly further out, but I would still like to be rural. Cities will burn. But if you bug in, and are in suburbs or similar, it should be obvious that you will need plenty of guns/ammo to defend your homestead. Fire would be the main concern IMO. An uncontrolled fire in a neghborhood where no fire station will report to can be disaster if all your eggs are in one basket. For this reason, I would still have a bug out plan with a grab-and-go setup. Not ideal by any means though...
Final Thoughts
Obviously none of us have been in a situation like this, so NONE of us have the answers. This is just what makes sense to me. Bottome line is that we all need to prepare for any situation that we believe to be "possible" and have the ability to adapt and survive if Plan A goes out the window. Always have a plan, even if its not a good one.
Side Note: Some have tried to compare the US to other coutries such as Haiti saying "look at their disaster, they didn't totally collapse, go into riots, ect... why would we" (or something to that extent)...well I think this is flawed out of the gate. The reason is that these countries (and most other countries) that are used in this comparison don't have the "entitlement mentality" that HALF of the country here has. This entitlement mentality goes hand-in-hand with the "instant gratification syndrome". If they don't get what they want, when they want it, then there's gonna be some problems! Other countries, that I know of, don't have this mentality. They KNOW how to survive...they do it everyday! Do you really think the welfare types would sit in a mile-long line, PATIENTLY, for food and water like the Japanese did after the tsunami/earthquake? Or like we did back in the 20's/30's during The Depression?? I highly doubt it!
The reason is that these countries (and most other countries) that are used in this comparison don't have the "entitlement mentality" that HALF of the country here has. This entitlement mentality goes hand-in-hand with the "instant gratification syndrome". If they don't get what they want, when they want it, then there's gonna be some problems! Other countries, that I know of, don't have this mentality.
Take a look at Greece and the people rioting there. It's actually very common for people to get up in arms over their entitlements in other countries due to being used to the socialist programs and free handouts they've become accustomed to. Look at the Middle East and all the crazy anti-government protests, riots, etc. Here's just a few happening today...
Jordan - http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/jordan-riot-police-clash-1018509.html
Bahrain - http://news.scotsman.com/world/Bahrain-Women-dies-following-antigovernment.6802749.jp
Tunisia - http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/17/us-tunisia-riots-idUSTRE76G1IH20110717
China - http://www.sacbee.com/2011/07/18/3776363/several-people-killed-in-attack.html
The reason is that these countries (and most other countries) that are used in this comparison don't have the "entitlement mentality" that HALF of the country here has,
Brother, have you spent a lot of time in Haiti? I haven't, but their situation is something I have always been interested in. Anyway, I dare say they are far from free of entitlement attitude. The reason the quake in Haiti wasn't so devestating is that these people were so used to wandering around waiting for a handout or for someone to fix their situation, that the earthquake only gave them a change of scenery.
The fact that that the US poured nearly 2.6 billion dollars in aid into their economy in 2005-2007 and they did NOTHING with it, furthers my belief in that. Like the ghettos in US cities, they remain disgusting because it elicits pity and brings in the money,and after a while, they are no longer able to produce anything worth while.
Japan was different, because of culture. In America, people think for and about themselves much more than in Japan. That has it's cons, but also a lot of pros.
4x4twenty6
07-18-11, 12:36
It is ashame that our gov't can not agree on this debt ceiling issue!
The president is already planning to veto a plan from the republicans and it hasnt even been officially introduced yet.
this dude is a complete moron. you can keep raising the debt ceiling so you can spend more money in an already failing economy.
Improper financial decisions are what got us here in the first place.
Banks loaning far too much money to people who believed that could afford it. then allowing them to take out second mortgages to buy things they cant afford and then defaulting.
The Government borrowing more money is essentially doing the same thing.
Fox News just said that some economists are predicting as high as 70% tax rate in the highest tax bracket. That is unreal! Why does the gov't think it is good policy to screw over the people that have worked hard to be sucessfull.
we should reward merit and condemn mediocrity. instead everyone wants to begrudge those who have made something of themselves.
"this excludes those white collar thieves who believed they were too big to fail...i wish we could have let those few banks fail and be absorbed by others but that is a whole different argument."
fact of the matter is by august when this debt ceiling issue really finalizes we will see where this country is truly heading. it seems like this shit storm will go to the last possible hour before a decision is made.
Bailing the country isn't very viable for most of us. You either need to have some unique asset that the foreign country is demanding, already possess dual citizenship, or have a high enough net worth to make buying your way in via a "vacation home" easy. Granted, if you're not established, a student could study abroad and try to figure out how to make it more permanent. If you have that kind of net worth, hopefully you've already put your investments in order and are hedging against a possible US collapse. Then you have no reason to bail either, because just like in Mexico or any other craphole you can buy your way into the nice/gated/tourist area.
Its pretty obvious why Haiti and a lot of other places are complete crap holes. You don't need to make it a big deal, and really its not that important beyond factoring it into "where I plan to live and keep family safe." Keep out of the ghettos, keep out of areas where liberals are purposely trying to subvert and destroy things for their "progressive" goals if you're looking for out for the long-term.
Outside of that, as others have stated, you want to hedge against a possible major disaster, just make sure you have means of self defense, supplies to wait out temporary disasters, and find an area away from the ghettos with good schools for your kids, make friends.
America is falling, austerity is coming, most of Europe is just as bad off. Despite all this, we will keep living and taking care of our families no matter what it takes. When the dust settles, we can try to make something better.
Ga Shooter
07-18-11, 12:55
this dude is a complete moron.
I disagree 100%. This guy is no moron he is brilliant. He is one of the smartest people in the world. He is very calculated and is about to take down the greatest country the world has ever known and will do it single handed and without firing a shot. Don't dismiss him as an idiot I think he knows excatly what he is doing.
Doc Safari
07-18-11, 13:04
I disagree 100%. This guy is no moron he is brilliant. He is one of the smartest people in the world. He is very calculated and is about to take down the greatest country the world has ever known and will do it single handed and without firing a shot. Don't dismiss him as an idiot I think he knows excatly what he is doing.
Glad I'm not the only one. I'm worried that every time the debt talks break down he and his cronies are doing high fives behind closed doors. I wouldn't even want to speculate what the real agenda is.
I disagree 100%. This guy is no moron he is brilliant. He is one of the smartest people in the world. He is very calculated and is about to take down the greatest country the world has ever known and will do it single handed and without firing a shot. Don't dismiss him as an idiot I think he knows excatly what he is doing.I really hope people will wake up to this and vote accordingly...if we make it that far. I just wish we didn't have so many people stupid as to not see it, or worse, that want him to do exactly what he's doing.
4x4twenty6
07-18-11, 13:12
lol. i see what you are saying and i stand corrected as i didnt explain why i think he is a moron.
where he is a moron is that he thinks the legislation he is promoting is the best way to do things and that it's the best way to live and be free. and the people who support that way of life, are also morons.
the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of everyone elses money.
4x4twenty6
07-18-11, 13:20
yellowfin- The thing that is really scary is that we have these Americans that agree with him. They are all for the redirection of the country towards socialism.
The majority of the country can not possibly think this way. It is horrible seeing all this happening and feeling like you can not do anything to stop it.
Ga Shooter
07-18-11, 13:21
lol. i see what you are saying and i stand corrected as i didnt explain why i think he is a moron.
where he is a moron is that he thinks the legislation he is promoting is the best way to do things and that it's the best way to live and be free. and the people who support that way of life, are also morons.
the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of everyone elses money.
I can agree to that.:D
I do not agree with that making him a moron, it is the best way for him to be happy, free, and more wealthy. He has been described as the ultimate capitalist, thing is he is trying to slam the door of wealth on every one else. The people going along with him are the real morons because he will throw them under the proverbial bus as fast as he can when he gets his way. Assuming we are speaking of G.S. and not B.O.
4x4twenty6
07-18-11, 14:09
ryan, your signature is pretty damn funny. touch a rednecks girl or truck and there will be consequences.
his idea of being free and wealthy would eventually cause civil unrest. look at the things going on in other countries. thats why he is a moron.
civil unrest brings, riots, loss of life, and other catastrophic events.
who is supposed to pay for the immense property damage if nationwide riots break out if the current state of the economy becomes worse. the rich?
massive damage to buildings, small business and personal property could lead to insurance companies declaring bankruptcy. now we have businesses not generating revenew, even more people unemployed and no way for them to rebuild because they do not have the funds themselves to cover the cost.
look at all the riots in greece.
i know it sounds extreme but it is a possibility.
new orleans still has areas that look like they did 6 years ago. it takes a lot of time and money to rebuild. and new orleans is a relatively small city.
Touch my truck and there will be consequences, touch my wife and they will never find the body :D. Make no mistakes, he is extremely smart and has thought his next move 4 moves in advance.
Brother, have you spent a lot of time in Haiti? I haven't, but their situation is something I have always been interested in. Anyway, I dare say they are far from free of entitlement attitude. The reason the quake in Haiti wasn't so devestating is that these people were so used to wandering around waiting for a handout or for someone to fix their situation, that the earthquake only gave them a change of scenery.
The fact that that the US poured nearly 2.6 billion dollars in aid into their economy in 2005-2007 and they did NOTHING with it, furthers my belief in that. Like the ghettos in US cities, they remain disgusting because it elicits pity and brings in the money,and after a while, they are no longer able to produce anything worth while.
Japan was different, because of culture. In America, people think for and about themselves much more than in Japan. That has it's cons, but also a lot of pros.
Ok yeah I do agree with you and Irish...maybe I just think of it being "different" here in the US.
To me, the difference is, in those countries, pretty much nobody has anything, and all rely on the gov handouts. So when they riot/loot/and protest, I see it as being a "unified effort" against the gov....because lets face it, a "have not" cannot take from another "have not".
In the case of the US, if economic collapse happens, the rioting will be because of the gov. not giving the handouts anymore, BUT in the end, it will be the "have nots" trying to take from the "haves"....I dunno maybe I'm just seeing this differently than what it really is...
misanthropist
07-18-11, 18:59
Interesting discussion the last few pages. I'd like to throw out a few points in regards to relocating internationally and escaping the pending monetary collapse inside CONUS. The list is in no particular order I just thought it might be easier to write and read in bullet points.
1. Italy, Spain, Greece and Ireland are all set to implode economically. When this happens the EU will be in a state of chaos and their entitlement scheme will collapse around their ears with people rioting throughout the continent. This will create a huge impact on the rest of the world. Like it or not the U.S. is not independent of the rest of the globe, especially economically, and they are currently facing worse problems than us.
2. If we were to have some sort of economic and social collapse what makes you think your U.S. dollars are going to be worth anything outside of the states? If your money's worth garbage here it's going to be worth less OCONUS and it's rather hard to survive in a foreign country without a viable means of providing for one's self.
3. Will you be welcome in another country? There are many places around the globe where Americans are not welcome and this is growing larger every day. This is due in part to dropping bombs on 6 other countries currently and starting wars around the world, no matter what the POTUS calls them the rest of the world deems it as starting wars and they don't like us bombing women and children and calling them "casualties of war". Like it or not the people with the "America, **** yeah!" attitude and **** those people over there type of thinking do not fair very well in other countries. Working for multiple companies traveling internationally, with other Americans from different parts of our country, I can tell you for a fact that an easy going, sympathetic attitude towards the poor of the world gets you a lot further in the rest of the world.
4. Where will you live? Unless you have a place already you may find it incredibly difficult to find a place to live due to your worthless currency, attitude towards Americans, etc. For the struggling people in other countries you will be a prime target or victime for crime. You will not have the freedom and access to firearms that you currently have and that is a fact. You will also not be treated by police, .Gov and agencies of that nature in the same way that the local person will, regardless of guilt or circumstances.
5. What will you live on? Your 401k, retirement, etc is gone! Try finding a job or a means of support in a foreign country where you may or may not speak the language. Are they willing to hire an American? Do you realize how much common everyday expenses are in your country of choice? Cars, computers and anything needing to be imported typically have huge taxes, VAT and penalties attached to the price. Try paying double the cost that you'd typically pay in the states for a vehicle and fuel costs.
6. How will you make friends and integrate? No man is an island. Do you know the local political philosophy? Do you know the country's history and the trials and tribulations that the indigenous people have seen? Many countries have a large contingent of poor people and they are often looked upon as the down trodden and not the scumbags on welfare as we do here. You will also have to learn local customs such as national holidays, new codes of conduct, morals and how to conduct yourself so that you fit in.
7. How will you stay healthy? Depending on the country, a lot have socialized medicine, you may not be able to afford medical care and it may not be provided "free" as it is to the locals. I was in the far north of Canada in Ft. McMurray and needed to get my arm looked at due to a really weird pain. A Canadian citizen would've been free but they wanted to charge me nearly $600, be forewarned.
I've personally spent many, many months without an end in sight in the fun and remote places of the Peruvian mountains, Argentina, Brazilian Amazon and Trinidad & Tobago. Living in a foreign country for an extended period of time is much more different and difficult than most people realize. Even local food can be a considerable challenge for some who aren't used to the local delicacies. Do you like guinea pig, BBQ chicken hearts, burritos with chicken bones inside? All this and plenty more awaits! Gotta run, have a good day!
I'll just comment on these bolded sections because they're points I've tried to work with in my preps: diversification of investment. One of my personal strategies and continuing goals is to maintain and increase an investment portfolio with a very balanced and international composition. I like to keep about half my investments in Canada (partly because I live here, but also because Canadian funds tend to be very stable and managed pretty conservatively) and spread the rest into foreign markets.
Should the Canadian dollar absolutely tank, I still have money elsewhere. If EVERYBODY tanks, well, I guess I'm just as ****ed as the people who didn't diversify...but in general I think a diverse portfolio is a safer one.
There is no question that national economies all over the world are pretty interdependent. If the US really seriously falls, that will hurt everyone. But it might be that Korean or German or Swiss markets (just to pick someone at random, I am not saying these are the markets of the future) might retain a fair amount of stability. You might not be converting a million worthless US (or in my case Canadian) dollars into now-unreachable Swiss francs...maybe you'll be converting half a million worthless US dollars, and the rest of your money is still worth something.
I would never argue that simply showing up in a foreign country is a practical plan. What I am saying is that if you really, seriously think that whatever country you're in is on the verge of collapse, you should probably be looking at ways to manage your assets such that you will survive at least a national economic collapse with some of your wealth intact.
I think that by doing that you radically improve your chances of relocating to another country, should there be a better option somewhere else. I have friends who snuck out of the USSR shortly before it fell apart, and I know a family who moved their money out of Mexico before the devaluation of the peso. They now live in Canada in relative luxury - compared, I mean, to most Mexicans...they are comfortable but not particularly wealthy here.
To my knowledge, none of these people has fired a gun in his life...they turned out to be very capable survivors, however.
That is the point I have been trying to make. Survival can take a number of forms, and in my opinion, and that's all it is, my opinion, but in my opinion, prudent financial management and diverse international investment, paired with a willingness to relocate, can be a very smart way to deal with large-scale social collapse. In particular, I think this approach can be good for families.
This is not an indictment of more direct means of survival...it is just a different way to think about maximizing your own survivability.
I'll just comment on these bolded sections because they're points I've tried to work with in my preps: diversification of investment. One of my personal strategies and continuing goals is to maintain and increase an investment portfolio with a very balanced and international composition. I like to keep about half my investments in Canada (partly because I live here, but also because Canadian funds tend to be very stable and managed pretty conservatively) and spread the rest into foreign markets.
Should the Canadian dollar absolutely tank, I still have money elsewhere. If EVERYBODY tanks, well, I guess I'm just as ****ed as the people who didn't diversify...but in general I think a diverse portfolio is a safer one.
There is no question that national economies all over the world are pretty interdependent. If the US really seriously falls, that will hurt everyone. But it might be that Korean or German or Swiss markets (just to pick someone at random, I am not saying these are the markets of the future) might retain a fair amount of stability. You might not be converting a million worthless US (or in my case Canadian) dollars into now-unreachable Swiss francs...maybe you'll be converting half a million worthless US dollars, and the rest of your money is still worth something.
I would never argue that simply showing up in a foreign country is a practical plan. What I am saying is that if you really, seriously think that whatever country you're in is on the verge of collapse, you should probably be looking at ways to manage your assets such that you will survive at least a national economic collapse with some of your wealth intact.
I think that by doing that you radically improve your chances of relocating to another country, should there be a better option somewhere else. I have friends who snuck out of the USSR shortly before it fell apart, and I know a family who moved their money out of Mexico before the devaluation of the peso. They now live in Canada in relative luxury - compared, I mean, to most Mexicans...they are comfortable but not particularly wealthy here.
To my knowledge, none of these people has fired a gun in his life...they turned out to be very capable survivors, however.
That is the point I have been trying to make. Survival can take a number of forms, and in my opinion, and that's all it is, my opinion, but in my opinion, prudent financial management and diverse international investment, paired with a willingness to relocate, can be a very smart way to deal with large-scale social collapse. In particular, I think this approach can be good for families.
This is not an indictment of more direct means of survival...it is just a different way to think about maximizing your own survivability.
Agreed sir. My investments are diversified as well. They are balanced equally between copper, lead & brass. As the first layer dissipates, there is a solid foundation following closely behind it.:D seriously though, I don't trust the stock market nor do I have faith in any other currency. Sure I have some investments, but I'm not counting on them to provide for my long term financial success. Too many of my older friends who were set for their kick ass retirements through investments have lost their asses and are now working until the day they die. Nowdays, I don't trust suit & tie guys nor do I trust the gov't controlled stock market. If I can't hold it in my hand, it's not real.
Blue-collar democrats. Out in the hinterlands, they are hicks with union jobs that pay WAY more than they should. You can find lots of them around Kokomo, IN, Akron, OH, and places like that. They may be chicken-raising hillbillies, but they will fight for their (stolen) piece of the pie, and a lot of them have a lot of guns.
Here's one in the wild:
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/local/politics/mikeday.jpg
Thanks for the clarification. It's important to remember that not all gun owners are conservatives.
In a societal collapse situation, that could be a deadly mistake.
Too many of my older friends who were set for their kick ass retirements through investments have lost their asses and are now working until the day they die.
I know a fair share of those myself.
Moose-Knuckle
07-19-11, 01:15
Concerning bullion after the ant hill gets kicked over, if one has any amount they become an instant target so one would be wise to have a means to defend their investment as someone will always value precious metals no matter what the scenario may be. Transporting it and securing it is a whole other matter.
In today’s market if a coin goes for $200 or $1500 how do you intend to “buy” tangible goods such as a case of bottled water or a tank full of gasoline? It’s not like the seller is going to have change.
For everyday items some pre64 coins would be a good idea and silver is more affordable than gold.
Concerning bullion after the ant hill gets kicked over, if one has any amount they become an instant target so one would be wise to have a means to defend their investment as someone will always value precious metals no matter what the scenario may be. Transporting it and securing it is a whole other matter.
In today’s market if a coin goes for $200 or $1500 how do you intend to “buy” tangible goods such as a case of bottled water or a tank full of gasoline? It’s not like the seller is going to have change.
This. It really is useless unless you are trading it for a paper currency or have the means to divide it into ounces/sub-ounces for direct payment.
Ga Shooter
07-19-11, 08:55
This. It really is useless unless you are trading it for a paper currency or have the means to divide it into ounces/sub-ounces for direct payment.
IMO you keep it to trade for new currency when that time comes. Silver might be able to be used during the "survival" period but I would hope that if you are planning to survive TEOTWAWKI then you should carry out your planning to when society is reestablished.
Logicalpath
07-19-11, 08:59
In today’s market if a coin goes for $200 or $1500 how do you intend to “buy” tangible goods such as a case of bottled water or a tank full of gasoline? It’s not like the seller is going to have change.
This. It really is useless unless you are trading it for a paper currency or have the means to divide it into ounces/sub-ounces for direct payment.
You can purchase gold & silver in different denominations. So a coin that contains half an ounce would be worth 800 at todays rate. You can continue to go down into 1/4 an oz. Again, the history of money is dominated by precious metals. Individuals used them to pay for all sorts of things, they had a way to pay for low priced goods as well higher priced goods. The only catch is that the spot price(purchasing price) on 1/4oz coin is higher than a 1oz coin...for this exact reason.
That said, part of the reason precious metals have always been the ideal "money" is because they're divisible. So even if you have a 1oz gold or silver coin you can melt it down & alter it's makeup. There are other reasons why but I'll direct you to an essay that explains it further.
I encourage those of you that have doubts about this to read this essay: Gold & Economic Freedom (http://www.321gold.com/fed/greenspan/1966.html)
Gold = Easy to hide, transport, and hides a lot of wealth. In theory it would be easy to move $100,000 anywhere, secretly, in only 62 small coins.
Silver = "Poor man's Gold." This is also your potential bartering tool (not Gold). Still somewhat easy to hide, but terrible for large amounts of wealth. Pre '64 coins would make the perfect bartering tool. A dime could be traded for bread/water/etc (in theory, if the value becomes widely known & accepted).
Ammo = Hard to move, hard to hide. Readily usable, easy to trade for anything you need.
That is a very good point about value. It a SHTF situation ammo is worth its weight in gold. It sounds stupid but toilet paper and medical supplies will be worth even more. Who likes using leaves? :smile:
I think that guns, ammo, & mags will be worth more than gold/silver during the shitstorm.
I think that guns, ammo, & mags will be worth more than gold/silver during the shitstorm.
I agree (along with TP, meds, alcohol and tobacco) but I don't know if I would want to trade something to someone that they could use to harm me or my family...I'd rather trade the alcohol and tobacco since I don't use either.
I agree (along with TP, meds, alcohol and tobacco) but I don't know if I would want to trade something to someone that they could use to harm me or my family...I'd rather trade the alcohol and tobacco since I don't use either.
That is why I think medical supplies, food and water stuff would be the best. We do the same thing in the Stan, non-lethal aid. It keeps it from coming back at you in a bad way.
The only way I see trading ammo and especially a firearm is for something VERY Good that I absolutely needed
4x4twenty6
07-19-11, 11:31
I'm going to have look into Reloading my own ammo. Is it cost effective when it comes to large round counts to do your own reloads?
If you have a good, secure bunker down location being able to make your own rounds could be a good bartering tool.
My dad used to load his own rifle rounds for hunting when i was a kid and we had a few boxes left and I shot them this past hunting season on our property and for 20'year old round there were no problems at all.
I was pretty nervous to shoot those old rounds too. No issues though.
I don't think I've ever seen a thread where everyone that is posting is online at the same time! This must be good.
I've got contingency plans for my contingency plans. A food/water supply that I can transport if needed, several rally points if I need to get my fam out of Dodge, weapons, ammo, med supplies, and I feel like I have the experience and training to successfully use any of this. I do not have a stash of gold or silver, and I really would prefer to invest in items that can sustain my family instead of hoping that I can buy something. When I'm comfortable with my preps I may load up on some form of something that can be used as currency, but right now, no.
My biggest concern(like most of you probably) is protecting the family and not getting myself killed or hurt bad enough to where I couldn't do that. I have a small trusted group and they are as ready as I am. I do think I would rather leave town and get to one of my rural rally points just because if it gets bad and stays bad it will eventually roll into every part of every city.
You can purchase gold & silver in different denominations. So a coin that contains half an ounce would be worth 800 at todays rate. You can continue to go down into 1/4 an oz. Again, the history of money is dominated by precious metals. Individuals used them to pay for all sorts of things, they had a way to pay for low priced goods as well higher priced goods. The only catch is that the spot price(purchasing price) on 1/4oz coin is higher than a 1oz coin...for this exact reason.
That said, part of the reason precious metals have always been the ideal "money" is because they're divisible. So even if you have a 1oz gold or silver coin you can melt it down & alter it's makeup. There are other reasons why but I'll direct you to an essay that explains it further.
I encourage those of you that have doubts about this to read this essay: Gold & Economic Freedom (http://www.321gold.com/fed/greenspan/1966.html)
Actually you can go all the way down to a 1/10th of an ounce in common coins such as the gold maple leaf.
Thinking about this I remember that in the book One Second After there was a huge demand for .22 LR ammo. As for purely trading purposes I might have to get some extra for bartering. Yes and it can kill you just as quick as a .308 (if used by someone that knows what they are doing). I think that this would be an acceptable trade item. Come on, if some ass-clown attacks my "retreat" with a .22 the most likely injury that I will sustain is a pain in my side from laughing soo hard. :lol:
I think that .22LR would be something that I would look at as a trading item. It could be very valuable and it is very easy to stock up on.
Quote:Ammo = Hard to move, hard to hide. Readily usable, easy to trade for anything you need.
I for one would not want to trade ammo to anyone I am not related to, and some of them are suspect.
Anything you trade away may come back at you at the wrong time, food, water, precious metals and gems can be good barter items, but trading ammo just seems like a bad idea.
Thinking about this I remember that in the book One Second After there was a huge demand for .22 LR ammo.
3 bullets for a Squirrel and 5 for a Rabbit :D I just finished that book yesterday. Great book, I couldn't put it down. I agree, it made me think to tell my wife to go out and get a few bulk packs of 22LR for the "savings account".
4x4twenty6
07-19-11, 13:28
.22 ammo is dirt cheap and at appropriate range very deadly.
You also have to consider those of us with access to body armor, LE
Level IIIa and mitary grade. Good guys and bad guys will have it.
It benefits you to have multiple Caliber rifles for such instances.
Quote:Ammo = Hard to move, hard to hide. Readily usable, easy to trade for anything you need.
I for one would not want to trade ammo to anyone I am not related to, and some of them are suspect.
Anything you trade away may come back at you at the wrong time, food, water, precious metals and gems can be good barter items, but trading ammo just seems like a bad idea.
I think you are seeing from a different perspective. Ammo may not be "traded", but used as a new currency. You or someone in your family may need antibiotics and nobody will sell it it you for anything other than another equally important item in the amount they see fit.
The problem with Gold and Silver is that you cannot breath it, drink it, eat it, use it to heal your wounds, or protect things important to survival.
.22 ammo is dirt cheap and at appropriate range very deadly.
You also have to consider those of us with access to body armor, LE
Level IIIa and mitary grade. Good guys and bad guys will have it.
It benefits you to have multiple Caliber rifles for such instances.
That's just another + for .22 LR. When you have to make a critical shot on a small target inside 100 yards, nothing is easier to hit accurately with than a .22 with a scope.
4x4twenty6
07-19-11, 13:46
100 yards is real close and a 22 with a scope is a great weapon. But 100 yards is Close enough that someone with proper training can carve you up with an unmagnified sighting system on say an AR style weapon. Which is where a larger Caliber rifle would be necessary for takin out targets from a greater distance. That is if you can determine a target as hostile from that great of a distance or further.
So many what if's and scenarios.
I would also like to add that I hope I am preparing for nothing.
I would hate to see my country go this route. I am positive you all do too but I just thought i should say it.
I would also like to add that I hope I am preparing for nothing.
I would hate to see my country go this route. I am positive you all do too but I just thought i should say it.
This is an interesting comment. I think there are some people that wish the world would come crashing down because they believe they would end up as the king of a small kingdom. I am often reminded of something I heard in regards to lottery winners that I think is easily compared to this line of thinking. There are many more high jack pot winners that go bankrupt than those that dont. Why? If they were not successful before hitting the lottery when it comes to managing LIFE simply adding money isn't going to suddenly provide you with the smarts to be successful.
If you don't have the tools to be successful in life today what makes you think you will be successful in a much less forgiving world such as post disaster.
Just as much focus needs to be put into making yourself a better everyday survivor (managing money, being responsible, being a 'good' person, making good decisions, etc) as preparing for the end of the world as we know it.
Just something to consider...
I agree, I hope I'm prepared for nothing too!
As far as the bad guys at a distance, my rally points and "hides" are in areas where I can see people coming from a long way away, and there's plenty of other buildings and homes that would be of interest to someone with looting (or worse) on their mind. If I see that kind of activity from an individual or group that is just moving closer and closer I'm going to change their course before they get to us. I see the use of a 22lr in some cases, but not this. I had a Ruger 10/22 when I was younger and remember it being an awesome rifle. It'd be great for hunting or dealing with a nearby threat with less noise.
Have primary, secondary and many levels of contingency plans.
My primary plan is to carry a gun and knife on me every day to escape even the most minor civil disturbance, such as "teens" or "youths" wanting to harass a person of different race.
Another plan I have is to have cash and passport in case leaving on a jet plane seems the best option.
Another plan is to get out a couple of my 200 rifles and keep the block cleared.
Another plan is to hand out rifle to others who I think can form a defensive group with me.
Another plan is for me to walk to Florida where I can live inside of a fallen log and spear wild boars to eat.
etc.
There is no single plan or set of kit that completely solves the problem. There are just too many variables. That does not mean we should not plan and prepare. But it would be surprising if the crisis that actually erupts is the particular one you have planned for.
This is an interesting comment. I think there are some people that wish the world would come crashing down because they believe they would end up as the king of a small kingdom. I am often reminded of something I heard in regards to lottery winners that I think is easily compared to this line of thinking. There are many more high jack pot winners that go bankrupt than those that dont. Why? If they were not successful before hitting the lottery when it comes to managing LIFE simply adding money isn't going to suddenly provide you with the smarts to be successful.
If you don't have the tools to be successful in life today what makes you think you will be successful in a much less forgiving world such as post disaster.
Just as much focus needs to be put into making yourself a better everyday survivor (managing money, being responsible, being a 'good' person, making good decisions, etc) as preparing for the end of the world as we know it.
Just something to consider...
There are also those that want to see this happen because it will finally stop welfare............:lol:
On that topic. That is a very good point. People who are not doing well now are going to be much worse off it the SHTF. There is an economist that said that if all of the money in the US was distributed equally to all the people the same top 10% would have all of their money back in 10 years. They are rich because they are good at it. Wrap your head around that one.
Some social scientist have said that the course of entitlement and laziness has gotten to become such a problem that there is nothing that can be done about it. The beast has grown so large that it can no longer be controlled. It will come t a head when the system can no longer handle it, it might actually be the reason the system can no longer handle it. That is going to be a very bad day for everyone.
There are also those that want to see this happen because it will finally stop welfare............:lol:
On that topic. That is a very good point. People who are not doing well now are going to be much worse off it the SHTF. There is an economist that said that if all of the money in the US was distributed equally to all the people the same top 10% would have all of their money back in 10 years. They are rich because they are good at it. Wrap your head around that one.
Some social scientist have said that the course of entitlement and laziness has gotten to become such a problem that there is nothing that can be done about it. The beast has grown so large that it can no longer be controlled. It will come t a head when the system can no longer handle it, it might actually be the reason the system can no longer handle it. That is going to be a very bad day for everyone.
The reason that nothing can be done about it is because the wussification of America has progressed to epic proportions. You're no longer allowed to even speak harshly to people, even lowlife dirtbags. We've indoctrinated the fight out of our society.
What we need is some stand up people who are willing to call it like it is and treat those who would drag us all down VERY harshly. They NEED to be treated harshly, otherwise they will never stop destroying this country. All they really deserve is guilt and shame for the irresponsible ways that they expect society to pay for. :(
4x4twenty6
07-19-11, 16:51
Unfortunately there will be huge consequences if they restructure the social programs like they need to be done. The consequences will probably mass unrest in the form rioting. Crime will sky rocket! Most of these people won't say, well shit I better get another job to support my family. They will resort to violence and take what they need.
In the end we the tax payers will have to foot the bill for repairs.
Moose-Knuckle
07-19-11, 17:16
You can purchase gold & silver in different denominations. So a coin that contains half an ounce would be worth 800 at todays rate. You can continue to go down into 1/4 an oz. Again, the history of money is dominated by precious metals. Individuals used them to pay for all sorts of things, they had a way to pay for low priced goods as well higher priced goods. The only catch is that the spot price(purchasing price) on 1/4oz coin is higher than a 1oz coin...for this exact reason.
That said, part of the reason precious metals have always been the ideal "money" is because they're divisible. So even if you have a 1oz gold or silver coin you can melt it down & alter it's makeup. There are other reasons why but I'll direct you to an essay that explains it further.
I encourage those of you that have doubts about this to read this essay: Gold & Economic Freedom (http://www.321gold.com/fed/greenspan/1966.html)
Informative post. Thanks for the links.
Silver = "Poor man's Gold." This is also your potential bartering tool (not Gold). Still somewhat easy to hide, but terrible for large amounts of wealth. Pre '64 coins would make the perfect bartering tool. A dime could be traded for bread/water/etc (in theory, if the value becomes widely known & accepted).
I have a close family member who seeks out and buys silver quarters and the like for this very reason.
Ammo = Hard to move, hard to hide. Readily usable, easy to trade for anything you need.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/AMMO.jpg
I got a thing for Stripper Clips...
Ga Shooter
07-19-11, 19:30
This is an interesting comment. I think there are some people that wish the world would come crashing down because they believe they would end up as the king of a small kingdom. I am often reminded of something I heard in regards to lottery winners that I think is easily compared to this line of thinking. There are many more high jack pot winners that go bankrupt than those that dont. Why? If they were not successful before hitting the lottery when it comes to managing LIFE simply adding money isn't going to suddenly provide you with the smarts to be successful.
If you don't have the tools to be successful in life today what makes you think you will be successful in a much less forgiving world such as post disaster.
Just as much focus needs to be put into making yourself a better everyday survivor (managing money, being responsible, being a 'good' person, making good decisions, etc) as preparing for the end of the world as we know it.
Just something to consider...
AMEN and AMEN!!
QuietShootr
07-19-11, 19:39
Anyway... To the original question: yes. Who's bringing the chips?
4x4twenty6
07-19-11, 19:42
i hopped on the treadmill today after my workout and fox news was on the tv. i saw some Michigan democrat either congressmen or senator say (via subtitles) that "Americans Need To Stop Spending Money". i literally almost stumbled cuz i was staring at the tv in amazement.
how can an elected official believe that is an answer to our economic situation. what a complete freakin moron!!!!!
he wont make it if the SHTF. atleast i hope not. i feel bad for anyone living in michigan to have a shithead like that as your representative.
i feel bad for anyone living in michigan to have a shithead like that as your representative.
The problem with our state is that the "urban" area of Detroit can speak for almost the entire state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MI-Congressional-Delegation.png
The other problem is all the delusional white people in the UP vote democrat to keep their "disability" checks coming. Although they almost all have guns and hunt, they still pretend to be blue-collar.
Shit, the UP is a great example how any group of people can be destroyed by social programs.
4x4twenty6
07-20-11, 01:59
WOW that is a huge district!
Unions are a huge drain as are social/entitlement programs.
As a law enforcement officer, i couldnt back my union, if in this economy, they were threatening to strike if better wages werent offered. That is beyond unfair to the tax payers to force an increase in lieu of not going to work. That type of bullying is unfair to the people we are trying to protect. Most police departments dont get paid worth a shit and to make a decent living you have to bust your ass working paid private details.
Same goes for the rest of these unions out there. they are bullying their company to pay them better wages. i remember hearing about a grocery chain recently closing its doors and laying of 40,000 people. the reason, their union had pushed and pushed for higher wages to the point that the company couldnt sustain the business. With out the raise they wouldnt have people showing up to work, now look what their union got them, unemployed.
i am capitalist to the core, but equal pay for equal work. i dont think garbage men deserve a higher salary than cops and teachers.
Cops that dont make the citizens happy and feel safe with the work they are doing will not influence the voters to agree to a raise. INCENTIVE! do good work make more money! (unless your economy is in the toilet then no one wants higher taxes)
it should be the same way for teachers. failing school systems with below average test scores should be dealt with accordingly.
schools with above average test scores or steadily increasing test scores should be rewarded for productivity.
lets face it we are an incentives based society. do good work and be rewarded for it. NOT SOCIALISM LIKE THESE NEW ASSHOLES IN OUR GOV'T WANT!
viperashes
07-20-11, 07:20
I don't know how many of you have played "Fallout" or some similar computer games. I'm not big on the whole call of duty or halo things that are popular these days, I'd rather actually go out and shoot.
Anyway, my point, and how it relates to the discussion. The comment about ammo being a form of currency actually in a sense does make sense. If/when society collapses, money as we know it isn't going to be worth what it is worth today. I remember playing the Xbox Fallout game and finding stacks of "old money" in houses and trading it in for the bottle caps.
I'm not saying bottle caps will become valuable all of the sudden, but I do believe that a barter system will take over in place of established currency. Common ammunition such as 5.56, 9mm, .45, 7.62 Russian, 7.62 NATO, etc. will be "worth more" to most people, considering that many people will have weapons chambered in these calibers.
More "obscure" calibers such as .30-06, .357 Magnum, etc. will be worth more to a smaller group of people, considering there is significantly less of the stuff laying around, but fairly irrelevant to some people who have no use for it except to re-trade. And this isn't speaking for "exotic" calibers that have essentially no worth at all except to the moron who forgot to prepare for the apocalypse and only brought his FN 5-7 to the party with a couple mags, a can of beans and a camel-bak.
It's impossible to predict how the relative worth of barter-able items is going to fluctuate if/when this situation occurs. It is definitely worth consideration and thought when preparing for a situation such as the "apocalypse" or in a realm closer to reality, a lengthy stint of civil upheaval such as a Katrina type situation where looting and pillaging took over because the populous genuinely believed that things weren't ever going to get back to normal.
Keep your head, prepare for what you can, always have a contingency.
Moose-Knuckle
07-20-11, 15:47
As the t-shirts and bumper stickers say "Ammo: currency for the new millennium".
In the aftermath of society's collapse the barter system will arise once more. Trading is the oldest form of commerce on the planet. Ammunition value would increase exponentially.
For me one cannot place a value on peace of mind. Stockpiles of ammo give me that.
4x4twenty6
07-20-11, 15:58
I am seriously considering loading my own ammo. Is it cost effective compared to buying bulk?
If ammo would be used as a form of currency, having the supplies to load your own would be like printing money!!!!!!
Ga Shooter
07-20-11, 16:02
I am seriously considering loading my own ammo. Is it cost effective compared to buying bulk?
If ammo would be used as a form of currency, having the supplies to load your own would be like printing money!!!!!!
It depends on what your time is worth. Depending what caliber and what you pay for bulk ammo you can reload for up to 1/2 the cost.
Moose-Knuckle
07-20-11, 16:24
I am seriously considering loading my own ammo. Is it cost effective compared to buying bulk?
If ammo would be used as a form of currency, having the supplies to load your own would be like printing money!!!!!!
Bear in mind that in order for you to roll your own ammo you still need components (bullets, primers, propellants, brass). During the last election primers were just as hard to come by as factory manufactured ammunition. It is cost effective if you shoot a lot as start up can be pricey but in the end the equipment will pay for itself.
Now if during the TEOTWAWKI you are hunkered down in your bunker with all your supplies I wouldn’t see reloading being problematic, however if you are having to “E&E” or bug out then it would be extremely cumbersome to be on the move with such supplies if not impossible. A foot one wants to be light and fast.
4x4twenty6
07-20-11, 17:49
If i did decide to load my own ammo i would load for all of my weapons.
i would most probably keep my equipment in my dads shop back home in louisiana. my parents have a sweet set up on 30 acres with close friends/family and he has a 30 ft x 70ft shop. he has plenty room and is semi retired and only works part time. he used to load his own ammo when i was a kid so he knows what he is doing and it would give him something to do.
i would keep a good amount where i am and because i visit pretty often, it wouldnt be a problem to transport rounds.
also my parents place is my fall back if it gets bad enough so keeping that kind of equipment their would be more practical. its just me and my wife in arkansas and we are only 6 hours away from my parents place. and i dont have a great amount of room in my garage for all that stuff too be organized like i would like it.
because i am a LEO i believe that i would be able to write some of that stuff off on my taxes and as i train on my own it would be nice to have the ammo in surplus.
last i saw, i could get 1200 rds of lake city 5.56mm ammor for around 425$.
any ideas and other draw backs i didnt think of i would love to hear them. dont wanna invest in something that isnt practical.
4x4, reloading for bulk ammo is very cumbersome. I have 2 five gallon buckts (1-5.56 & 1-7.62) filled to the brim with Lake City brass, primers by the thousands as well as bullets & lots of powder. To manually size, trim, debur, remove primer crimp, prime, charge, & seat bullets in 100 rounds takes hours with a single stage press setup. With a Dillon 650 or other progressive press & a Giraud trimmer/beveler it will cut the time significantly. But now you're talking about $1500+/- in equipment. I load single stage and it takes me prolly 3 hours to load 100 rounds if I haul ass with no distractions. Case prep is the most painful & time consuming part. I have a Giraud trimmer in the mail right now to help motivate me to load the stuff. I only load my competition rounds for my bolt gun anymore. About 100 per month & it takes all my willpower to get in the garage & do it. Unless you have a ton of time on your hands & are looking for optimum accuracy, I suggest just buying new ammo.
4x4twenty6
07-21-11, 00:54
Yeaaa, far more effort than i am willing to put into it at this moment.
ill stick to buying bulk and write off what i can on my taxes.
i would rather spend the money on rounds than all the equipment at this point in my life anyway.
thanks for the details a1fabweld. very helpful.
QuietShootr
07-21-11, 07:15
I am seriously considering loading my own ammo. Is it cost effective compared to buying bulk?
If ammo would be used as a form of currency, having the supplies to load your own would be like printing money!!!!!!
Yes, it is cost effective - but I sure as hell wouldn't consider someone else's handloads to be worth the same as factory ammo. I won't even shoot someone else's loads now, let alone in a SHTF barter type situation.
QuietShootr
07-21-11, 07:30
4x4, reloading for bulk ammo is very cumbersome. I have 2 five gallon buckts (1-5.56 & 1-7.62) filled to the brim with Lake City brass, primers by the thousands as well as bullets & lots of powder. To manually size, trim, debur, remove primer crimp, prime, charge, & seat bullets in 100 rounds takes hours with a single stage press setup. With a Dillon 650 or other progressive press & a Giraud trimmer/beveler it will cut the time significantly. But now you're talking about $1500+/- in equipment. I load single stage and it takes me prolly 3 hours to load 100 rounds if I haul ass with no distractions. Case prep is the most painful & time consuming part. I have a Giraud trimmer in the mail right now to help motivate me to load the stuff. I only load my competition rounds for my bolt gun anymore. About 100 per month & it takes all my willpower to get in the garage & do it. Unless you have a ton of time on your hands & are looking for optimum accuracy, I suggest just buying new ammo.
And for the opposing view - I use a Dillon 1050 Super for pistol and 5.56 ammo, and I can crank out 800-1000 rounds per hour if I have someone helping me fill primer tubes and so on. Yes, it was a lot of money, but I shoot between 1000-3000 rounds a month, and there's no way in hell I could afford to do that at factory ammo prices. The setup paid for itself very quickly (years ago). Example:
Dillon 1050 S setup for .45ACP - $1650... let's call it 2k after you get some of the ancillary equipment.
Case of factory .45 ACP from ammoman: $385.00.
1000 Rainier plated FMJ bullets: 149.00
1000 Cast lead 230gr : 120.00
Powder - 1# win 231 - 19.95
Primers - Win large pistol 26.00/1000
Cases - reused (you have been saving your brass, yes? I get 18-25 loads from .45 cases before they get tossed)
So.... cost per round:
Powder: $0.01
Primer: $0.02
FMJ bullet $0.14
Lead bullet $0.12
Cost $0.17 per shot for FMJ or $0.15 per shot for lead...which is why I use the Rainier bullets instead of lead.
Factory cost per round: $0.38.
You figure it out. I load my precision rifle rounds too - which aside from the accuracy aspect, factory .300 WM match is damn near two dollars a shot.
Notice that the national heat wave has not produced anything unusual in terms of civil disorder, except the usual "teens" and "gangs" (media code words for violent black people) attacking persons of other races due to their race. Not even the "Most Likely Terrorist" (white American male according to DHS) has gotten into the act during this time of vulnerability.
I shoot between 1000-3000 rounds a month, .
You are a total stud! I wish for the time to do that.
More tot he point, my Dillon 1050 has some priming glitch, irritating me to no end.
QuietShootr
07-21-11, 09:43
You are a total stud! I wish for the time to do that.
More tot he point, my Dillon 1050 has some priming glitch, irritating me to no end.
Mine ****s up about every 1500 rounds and I have to disassemble the primer feed and clean all the accumulated powder and dust out of it. I have also had a problem with the ratchet arm failing to depress far enough to index the primer plate. What's yours doing?
Mine ****s up about every 1500 rounds and I have to disassemble the primer feed and clean all the accumulated powder and dust out of it. I have also had a problem with the ratchet arm failing to depress far enough to index the primer plate. What's yours doing?
I've got the RCBS progressive press and used to have to do the same thing. A can of compressed air helps to avoid accumulation during the loading process. Every 50 rounds or so, just hit the shell holder area with a blast of air and drive on. Just make sure you cover or shield any already charged cases in the shell holder, or you'll end up with powder everywhere, including your ears! Ask me how I know. hehe
QuietShootr
07-21-11, 09:56
I've got the RCBS progressive press and used to have to do the same thing. A can of compressed air helps to avoid accumulation during the loading process. Every 50 rounds or so, just hit the shell holder area with a blast of air and drive on. Just make sure you cover or shield any already charged cases in the shell holder, or you'll end up with powder everywhere, including your ears! Ask me how I know. hehe
Doesn't work on this one. I have compressed air right next to the machine and I blow it out pretty frequently. I don't know why it keeps happening, but it's been consistently doing that for years.
Moose-Knuckle
07-21-11, 11:06
Notice that the national heat wave has not produced anything unusual in terms of civil disorder. . .
I was thinking the same thing the other day when I read an article on the strain this heat wave is having on the the nation's antiquated power grid.
I was thinking the same thing the other day when I read an article on the strain this heat wave is having on the the nation's antiquated power grid.
As was I. There is nothing worse then a bunch of HOT and pissed off people running around causing problems. The heat makes them even crazier. If brown-outs start it will start up.
QuietShootr
07-21-11, 11:37
As was I. There is nothing worse then a bunch of HOT and pissed off people running around causing problems. The heat makes them even crazier. If brown-outs start it will start up.
Yup. It doesn't mean a thing till we start having outages.
Sure makes having a basement nice. No matter how bad it gets, its pretty chilly downstairs. I'm more worried about losing power in winter.
Yup. It doesn't mean a thing till we start having outages.
One of the talking heads on TV speculated that due to the economy people were taking it easy on the thermostat and thus saving the grid. A lot of people just can't afford to keep it as comfortable as they did in years past inside.
4x4twenty6
07-21-11, 12:58
I can think of one good brown out!!!!!
When the current president is finally relieved of his duties!
haha. i couldnt resist it sorry guys.
It is crazy, back home when it would get real cold (i worked night watch) crime dropped big time over night hours. there were times when i wouldnt get a single dispatched call and i couldnt even find a crack head to talk to.
When its hot though, whoa man, bar b que's, partys, drinking and fighting. not too mention all the dope. summer time and kids being out of school means a shit load of mischief.
Moose-Knuckle
07-21-11, 13:49
I can think of one good brown out!!!!!
When the current president is finally relieved of his duties!
haha. i couldnt resist it sorry guys.
It is crazy, back home when it would get real cold (i worked night watch) crime dropped big time over night hours. there were times when i wouldnt get a single dispatched call and i couldnt even find a crack head to talk to.
When its hot though, whoa man, bar b que's, partys, drinking and fighting. not too mention all the dope. summer time and kids being out of school means a shit load of mischief.
I work for a large municipal agency in N Central TX, the National Weather Service classifies our region as humid sub-tropical with hot summers. When it's hot we are jumping, we hit triple digits but unlike out west it is not a dry heat. This past winter we had an ice storm for about a week. Dropped down to single digits, again with the moisture in the air the wind chill made it feel MUCH colder. All the oxygen thieves stayed in whatever nest they come from and our call volume was nothing but traffic accidents if you can imagine that.
4x4twenty6
07-21-11, 14:18
We had a pretty damn cold winter in new orleans last year, the 40's are hard on us but we had nights in the 20's, and working night watch there wasnt shit going on.
hunting 3 hours north of new orleans i had mornings in the teens. i loved it.
i watched lots of movies and put a lot of miles on my car. 30,000 plus in one year.
i dont get a take home car with the new dept i will be working with here in arkansas and that really sucks. i was spoiled with the last dept i was with.
So from what you guys are saying, if we just shipped all criminals to Northern Alaska they would stop causing trouble?
QuietShootr
07-21-11, 16:10
So from what you guys are saying, if we just shipped all criminals to Northern Alaska they would stop causing trouble?
It'd slow them down quite a bit. There used to be a guy on another board who was a cop in the northern asshole of Alaska. Most of the criminal activity up there consisted of drunk Eskimos (yes, I know we're supposed to say Inuit. **** off.) beating on their old ladies, the occasional meth cook, and whatnot. Mostly not a lot of street crime when it's -40.
Just a Jarhead
07-21-11, 16:11
So from what you guys are saying, if we just shipped all criminals to Northern Alaska they would stop causing trouble?
HA! & all the libtards too. Problem solved. Alaskapopo will just love you for that stroke of genius.
4x4twenty6
07-21-11, 16:25
quietshootr: i think up there it should be called trail crimes instead of street crimes given the lack of streets in some of those areas! haha.
i was watching that show alaska state troopers last night, shit is rugged out there.
i couldnt imagine not being able to drink up either. that ****ing sucks.
could you see those thug asshole up there wearing the sagging pants.
oversized white shirt over a polar jacket! that shit would be hillarious.
there lips would stick to their gold front tooth as it iced over when they breathe.
Moose-Knuckle
07-21-11, 17:00
i couldnt imagine not being able to drink up either. that ****ing sucks.
could you see those thug asshole up there wearing the sagging pants.
oversized white shirt over a polar jacket! that shit would be hillarious.
there lips would stick to their gold front tooth as it iced over when they breathe.
I have a good friend who is on with an agency in Alaska (even has his own reality TV show). They have crime, but not like we have here. Alcohol is not illegal state wide, in the native towns they want it outlawed and so it is.
Like all other big cities, Anchorage has their fare share of saggy pant wearing gang bangers. A lot of them are from Hawaii of all places. Their parents think some how moving their worthless asses to AK their kids will some how magically not suck so much.
The cold weather has a way of keeping oxygen thieves indoors, ie keeping crime down.
4x4twenty6
07-21-11, 21:21
Here is what i am wondering, with these debt talks going so well and the impending gloom and doom with not being able to pay social security, soldiers and unemployment, and other social programs what the hell can we expect over the next two months - six months.
It is difficult to decipher what is fact from the scare tactics.
After the gov't uses the multiple trillion dollars they are increasing the debt ceiling for is gone then what? Are we back to possibly defaulting and not being able to pay for the above listed programs and such.
if anything does happen i hope i have more time to prepare for it.
I can't wait to read the news tomorrow. Rolling blackouts in the cesspool of Deeeetroit! (http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/07/21/dte-rolling-blackouts-possible/)
There were about 25,000 DTE customers without electricity, Thursday afternoon, as temperatures were set to hit the triple digits in Metro Detroit.
NY - Expect rolling outages. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Mercury-Rising-Heat-Wave-Stretches-Into-Day-6-125943488.html
NY - Women brawl over seat on train (video). http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/07/21/stunned-straphangers-look-on-as-women-brawl-over-seat-on-l-train-in-brooklyn/
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 01:52
Man that sucks ass!
I saw the latest unemployment numbers today.
Whites-8.1%
Blacks-16.2% Hope and Change Aye?! Higher than it ever was when Bush was in office.
Asians-6.8%
Hispanics-11%
Overall 9.2%.
It's gonna get worse too! Yippeeeee!
A lot have said networking, this is important. I cannot believe they took away the people's guns...
A lot have said networking, this is important. I cannot believe they took away the people's guns...
What are you talking about?
QuietShootr
07-22-11, 06:47
What are you talking about?
http://www.lolforumpictures.com/wtf/wtf6.jpg
Man that sucks ass!
I saw the latest unemployment numbers today.
Whites-8.1%
Blacks-16.2% Hope and Change Aye?! Higher than it ever was when Bush was in office.
Asians-6.8%
Hispanics-11%
Overall 9.2%.
It's gonna get worse too! Yippeeeee!
Why work when the gov will pay you to sit yo fat a$$ at the house??
Why work when the gov will pay you to sit yo fat a$$ at the house??
Man, I have been doing it all wrong for all of these years.........:jester:
Why work when the gov will pay you to sit yo fat a$$ at the house??
I have many friends who are eye doctors in CA. Every single one of them has said that they'll frequently have patients who come in for services and pay with a Medi-Cal state health program card.
Meanwhile, they rolled in and parked in front of the office with a Land Rover, Mercedes/BMW/Lexus SUV, or some other high dollar luxury vehicle.
Another friend told me that one of the Medi-Cal recipient's kids was showing the office staff her new iPad 2 when it first came out.
I was in line at a local supermarket the other day and saw someone pay for their groceries using their food stamp card. Then, push their cart over to the lotto booth and drop $50 cash to buy lotto tickets.
Welcome to Bizarro world...
Why work when the gov will pay you to sit yo fat a$$ at the house (THAT the same gov bought for you)??
fixed this up for you sir.
viperashes
07-22-11, 10:02
According to the Catholic church, the bible is being ammended. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are no longer going to be named "Conquest, War, Famine, and Death", they will now be known as "Welfare, Communism, Medicare, and Jeff." The will also no longer be horsemen, because that takes effort, so they now ride Segways and Rascal power scooters, and will furthermore be known as "The Four Lazy Bastards that Screwed up America." The Catholic church has hidden the seven seals in state lottery tickets somewhere throughout California.
viperashes
07-22-11, 10:02
Delete
4x4twenty6
07-22-11, 11:40
In louisiana i know for a fact that these people who have a food stamp card can go to the grocery get all the cheetos, cookies, sugary ass drinks they can stand, and then get cash back to go buy their dope!!!
GOD BLESS THE AMERICAN DREAM!
fixed this up for you sir.
Ha! Yeah exactly! And you could go even further with their big screen tv, escalade on "dubs", and the food they bought off of food stamps...ughh this is tiring...:rolleyes:
VooDoo6Actual
07-22-11, 12:37
In louisiana i know for a fact that these people who have a food stamp card can go to the grocery get all the cheetos, cookies, sugary ass drinks they can stand, and then get cash back to go buy their dope!!!
GOD BLESS THE AMERICAN DREAM!
Agreed,
See it ALL the time.....
Nothing like competent, accountable & responsible people we elected running our country & spending our tax dollars with oversights / ethics in place !
Beat Trash
07-22-11, 14:35
I used to work an occasional off-duty detail at a few grocery stores. I'd watch people buy $400 plus worth of groceries with their food stamp cards. The healthiest things in the cart would be the dog food for the pets.
Would watch them go nuts after midnight on the date the cards were to be reloaded by the state, if there was an issue and the funds weren't available.
I had many conversations with store managers about what they might expect should the WIC cards stop getting reloaded state wide, or Nation wide? Every store manager's answer was the same. "They'd burn the place down!"
Moose-Knuckle
07-22-11, 16:44
I've been reading articles today about the great "heatageddon" that has hit the nation. :rolleyes:
Unless you’re a North of 70 years old and are a shut-in in your own home due to medical problems I do not understand why people keep expiring. Stay in the shade, hydrate . . . what is so difficult? It's not like these urban dwellers are on a dismounted patrol in the sandbox? Reminds me of an old dot Indian saying. . ."only an Englishman is mad enough to stir in the noon-day sun".
My grandfather grew up on a farm in the mid-west before he was sent off to kill Nazi's in France. To this day in triple digit heat he will wear pants and a light long-sleeve shirts. He taught me when I was knee high that if you perspire the breeze will keep you cool, that and the clothing will protect you from over exposure to direct sun light.
I think the most disturbing thing I have read in these articles is the term “urban cooling centers”. For some odd reason when I hear that phrase I have images of the Thunder Dome (aka Super Dome) and the Katrina “shelter” that I worked security at flash in my head. The day I take my ass to a government “shelter” and or “urban cooling center” is the day the gentleman in white coats from Happy Dale come to throw a net over my head.
Just to clarify... The reason I add article like these and of similar nature is I think they are all contributing factors to the downhill slide. They may all be isolated incidents but when looking at the big picture it's apparent to me that they will be, if they aren't already, intertwined and will lead to crazier shit in the future. Or I could be wrong...
Mass layoffs hit the U.S. again... http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/return-mass-layoffs-grim-sign-u-workers-190228219.html
Thieves targeting ambulances. http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Burglars-Steal-from-Ambulances-125981078.html
Thieves target farms. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/22/us/22crime.html?_r=2&partner=MYWAY&ei=5065
Weird. Over 100 stormdrains stolen. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/07/21/thieves-snatching-natomas-storm-drains/
Moose-Knuckle
07-24-11, 00:02
Well we have all heard about what happened in Norway by now.
Just today here in the states. . .
Gunman kills self, 5 others at Texas roller rink
http://news.yahoo.com/gunman-kills-self-5-others-texas-roller-rink-035211015.html
8 wounded in shooting at Seattle-area car show
http://news.ca.msn.com/world/8-wounded-in-shooting-at-seattle-area-car-show
4x4twenty6
07-24-11, 00:40
mooseknuckle: that is ashame.
I didnt see any of that make any news stations here in little rock, More interested in Amy Winewhore's death. i honestly couldnt give a good flying ****. But media think its important.
NoveskeFan
07-24-11, 10:51
mooseknuckle: that is ashame.
I didnt see any of that make any news stations here in little rock, More interested in Amy Winewhore's death. i honestly couldnt give a good flying ****. But media think its important.
The sad stories Moose-Knuckle posted will be turned into another call for banning guns.
And the media sucks.
Well, if there would have been a few armed citizens around maybe some lives could have been saved and some injuries prevented.
NoveskeFan
07-24-11, 11:23
Well, if there would have been a few armed citizens around maybe some lives could have been saved and some injuries prevented.
Agreed. Responsible, armed citizens...
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert A. Heinlein
Well we have all heard about what happened in Norway by now.
Just today here in the states. . .
Gunman kills self, 5 others at Texas roller rink
http://news.yahoo.com/gunman-kills-self-5-others-texas-roller-rink-035211015.html
8 wounded in shooting at Seattle-area car show
http://news.ca.msn.com/world/8-wounded-in-shooting-at-seattle-area-car-show
My fiance has asked me before why I carry everywhere I go, so I showed her these articles and said that you just never know when "it" will happen. It won't be on your terms or on your timetable or at the place of your choosing, so even when the threat level is "low", you still need to be as prepared as possible.
My wife and I carry everywhere. You just never know when the scum is going to get stupid. It will happen when it is most inconvenient for you. ;)
My wife and I carry everywhere. You just never know when the scum is going to get stupid. It will happen when it is most inconvenient for you. ;)
I can't get my wife to carry on a regular basis. She will only purse carry my Glock26 on rare occasions, but she does have a large magnum can of Sabre Red in her purse. She says the G26 is too heavy. :suicide2:
I'm working on getting either a Ruger LC9, Kahr CM9, or S&W 642/442 (pink grips!) to see if this will motivate her.
GermanSynergy
07-24-11, 23:57
So from what you guys are saying, if we just shipped all criminals to Northern Alaska they would stop causing trouble?
It seemed to work for the Soviets for 60+ years- shipping their "criminals" to Siberia.
I don't understand people that don't understand that you should always be prepared to defend your family and yourself. My wife is a hard sell; she doesn't like guns so getting her to carry is still something I'm working on. She is fiercly protective over our kids, but pulls back when I start talking about the need for her to be armed. Her best friend is very anti-gun and her husband won't even try to convert her. She also tries to lobby my wife against my position on guns which is a losing battle. I believe the old "Give up my guns... cold dead fingers" motto. Now get my wife out to the range and she is a great shot and enjoys it, but by the time we get home she's saying she doesn't like them in the house again.
As things spiral downward in the US it's going to be more and more important. I'm sure when/if things tip she'll grab a gun if she can, but I don't want her to be in a position (maybe miles from home) where she can't.
4x4twenty6
07-25-11, 12:00
My wife doesn't want me to take her shooting. Her reason for it is because i am good at it and she is not. She doesn't wanna embarass herself if she is not good at it?! She said she would let someone else teach her but would rather it be one on one.
She is a perfectionist, which is a good quality sometimes.
She also says that i dont explain things well and i talk down to her. I think she is just used to being the best at something and takes it as condiscending when i try to explain things to her.
It is an ongoing struggle.
GermanSynergy
07-25-11, 12:05
My wife doesn't want me to take her shooting. Her reason for it is because i am good at it and she is not. She doesn't wanna embarass herself if she is not good at it?! She said she would let someone else teach her but would rather it be one on one.
She is a perfectionist, which is a good quality sometimes.
She also says that i dont explain things well and i talk down to her. I think she is just used to being the best at something and takes it as condiscending when i try to explain things to her.
It is an ongoing struggle.
A possible solution would be to remove yourself from the situation and see if she would be more receptive to enrolling in a formal class. Many places offer "ladies only" training, with female instructors. Worth a try, IMHO.
4x4twenty6
07-25-11, 12:22
You are right, i am probably going to have to do that.
She was receptive to learning how to operate all my weapons in case of an emergency. She actually asked me how my m4 works when i first got cuz she didnt want it in the house if she didnt know how to operate it.
I have a .38 s&w 642, only reason i purchased it was in hopes of my wife carrying it. She works at a hospital and has to be at work very early and sometimes even works nights. it makes me nervous to say the least.
The interest and curiousity is there and she is not afraid of guns. Her dad didnt do his job of taking her to shoot at a young age. My dad didnt take my older sisters shooting enough either and i think he should have.
QuietShootr
07-25-11, 12:27
A possible solution would be to remove yourself from the situation and see if she would be more receptive to enrolling in a formal class. Many places offer "ladies only" training, with female instructors. Worth a try, IMHO.
Yes. You need to farm it out. I am a pretty decent instructor and I won't work with my wife. When she needs a training tuneup, I get someone else to do it.
4x4twenty6
07-25-11, 13:05
I am by no means an instructor.
It is definitely something I think I would be interested in later on my career.
I can simplifiy offer some advice based on my training. I have civilian friends that want me to take them shooting and show them stuff but I tell them first that they need to see an instructor who is trained to teach new guys.
A lot of my skill comes from having the basics drilled into me and with out proper basics it is irresponsible to build off of that. Especially if those basic skills are poorly done.
I am just uncomfortable teaching someone skills that i learned that they may not be able to execute and that person getting themselves hurt.
My fiance isn't against guns by any means, but she didn't necessarily grow up around them, and her theory is "why do I need to carry one if I have you around??" I've at least gotten her to be more aware and start carrying pepper spray...and she does a good job of being ready with it when she's walking through parking lots...its a start I guess. She is a good shot, so maybe I should get her out to a class in the future...and get her a smaller gun than my FS
More mass shootings... 14 dead, 53 wounded. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018381/14-dead-53-wounded-string-deadly-weekend-shootings.html
4x4twenty6
07-25-11, 17:24
Some people with their heads firmly inserted into their asses believe the answer to gun violence is to get rid of all guns.
I just heard one of the talking heads on a Fox News show say that.
So, if all guns where to no longer exist would we then get rid of edged weapons after people start getting carved up?
Those jackasses really believe getting rid of guns is the answer to end violence.
Blows my mind.
Some people with their heads firmly inserted into their asses believe the answer to gun violence is to get rid of all guns.
I just heard one of the talking heads on a Fox News show say that.
So, if all guns where to no longer exist would we then get rid of edged weapons after people start getting carved up?
Those jackasses really believe getting rid of guns is the answer to end violence.
Blows my mind.
Bob Beckel is an idiot... and a criminal... and a drunk... (could go on for a few minutes, but I'm working.)
Was listening to it on XM as well.
4x4twenty6
07-25-11, 17:37
YES!!! that is that shit heads name.
I really only enjoy the show cuz of that brunette hottie Tantaros.
PA PATRIOT
07-25-11, 19:46
Had a family day out in the vehicle were are distance from home was going to be 125+ miles. Saw the wife throwing are walking BOB's in the back of the truck and could not believed I finally turned her to the dark side. Wife looked at me and said that she feels better knowing we could handle a short term event if we were unable to return home on a extended mileage trip.
I seen this URL on her browser history tonight so I know were she has been getting her info and I just wanted to say "Thank You" to all here at M4Carbine Disaster Preparation & Planning section for turning my sufficient other to the dark side!
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75318
I have many friends who are eye doctors in CA. Every single one of them has said that they'll frequently have patients who come in for services and pay with a Medi-Cal state health program card.
Meanwhile, they rolled in and parked in front of the office with a Land Rover, Mercedes/BMW/Lexus SUV, or some other high dollar luxury vehicle.
Another friend told me that one of the Medi-Cal recipient's kids was showing the office staff her new iPad 2 when it first came out.
I was in line at a local supermarket the other day and saw someone pay for their groceries using their food stamp card. Then, push their cart over to the lotto booth and drop $50 cash to buy lotto tickets.
Welcome to Bizarro world...
I'll confirm this as I live in this ****ed off state. There is a couple blocks worth of section 8 housing up the street from my shop right off the commercial strip. In the summer time, you can drive by and watch the bruvas sitting on the porch, drinking their "fouties", front door wide open for all to see thier big screen TV's & leather furniture, & luxury cars parked out front.
There's a liquor store a block the other direction from my shop. They migrate back & forth from their residences to the liquor store all day long. I went into the store the other day to grab a soda & this bruva asks me for some change on the way out. As I walked passed him in disgust, I noticed him wearing a $100+ pair of Nike Jordan shoes & dressed like a million dollar rapper. These bastards have a lot of nerve.
On another note, I'll add my .02 that if this debt ceiling issue doesn't get resolved & we default, the middle & upper class along with the elderly will be the ones to get punished with more taxes/social security cuts vs. taking entitlements away from the lazy. Why? Because the gov't knows the scum bag welfare class they bred will burn the country to the ground while the average Joe will continue to take a beating with little to no backlash.
4x4twenty6
07-26-11, 02:28
A1fabweld:
I get to hear all kinds of stories from my wife about the shitbag patients that come in to the local hospital. She is an MD and her specialty is OB/GYN. I could create a whole post about the shit these people say and their way of thinking. It is pretty ****ing incredible.
Back in the N.O. Area they built a bunch of housing complexes that were supposed to be for single mothers and their children only.
Well needless to say these useless crap sacks that lived there had all kinds of shit going on that was not supposed to be.
Finally a company from Florida came in to manage the properties and these people were amazing. They met with local LE and would get detailed reports of any incident that occurred at the unit and the tenants were kicked out based on the in incident and it's severity! No questions asked! It cleaned up that area so fast it was unreal.
There were actually decent hardworking single mothers living back there and they cooperated with police. It was like workin in the twilight zone.
It can be done but you have to willing to make those decisions.
I'm sure it was hard for those managers kick out a 23 year old mother of 5 but she disobeyed the one simple rule.
No Ackin A Fool!
"Because the gov't knows the scum bag welfare class they bred will burn the country to the ground"
Well, typically they burn their own neighborhoods and local communities. Once they step outside their AO I would thnks they would meet a very different response. Now, more thing come into play here, if the govt. moves to disarm the general public then there's no way to really stop them, but if that hasn't or never happens, then it will be full on war in the streets. Armed citizens aren't going to sit back and watch a mob of human trash work their way through a city; they will be met by... well, you know... people like us.
QuietShootr
07-26-11, 06:44
Had a family day out in the vehicle were are distance from home was going to be 125+ miles. Saw the wife throwing are walking BOB's in the back of the truck and could not believed I finally turned her to the dark side. Wife looked at me and said that she feels better knowing we could handle a short term event if we were unable to return home on a extended mileage trip.
I seen this URL on her browser history tonight so I know were she has been getting her info and I just wanted to say "Thank You" to all here at M4Carbine Disaster Preparation & Planning section for turning my sufficient other to the dark side!
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=75318
NICE!
http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/BoratSuccess2.jpg
Well, typically they burn their own neighborhoods and local communities. Once they step outside their AO I would thnks they would meet a very different response. Now, more thing come into play here, if the govt. moves to disarm the general public then there's no way to really stop them, but if that hasn't or never happens, then it will be full on war in the streets. Armed citizens aren't going to sit back and watch a mob of human trash work their way through a city; they will be met by... well, you know... people like us.
I believe there are only a few things that would creat a "full on war in the streets", and you named a couple of them in your post.
I bet one of the other reasons would be cutting off the handouts. When that happens as long as we're still armed we can handle an angry/hungry mob even if they're armed. I'd be willing to bet that any one of us (armed) could handle 3-5+ of "them" (armed and the majority untrained).
In the big secret plan of the Fed to disarm the population someday do thay have a plan to find the gangbangers with the unregistered weapons? A lot of those would probably be in the areas that would errupt first.
I bet one of the other reasons would be cutting off the handouts. When that happens as long as we're still armed we can handle an angry/hungry mob even if they're armed. I'd be willing to bet that any one of us (armed) could handle 3-5+ of "them" (armed and the majority untrained).
In the big secret plan of the Fed to disarm the population someday do thay have a plan to find the gangbangers with the unregistered weapons? A lot of those would probably be in the areas that would errupt first.
Yeah our brilliant gov. doesn't think about the difference between law abiding citizens like us and those who will have weapons whether illegal or not. It really is beyond me that they don't understand the concept that they are "criminals" for a reason...because they BREAK LAWS!!!...if one of those laws is you can't have the evil "assault weapons", hi cap mags, ect....what makes them think that will be any different??
Another "Flash Rob" at Vicky's Secret in DC. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018835/Facebook-Twitter-used-plan-flashrob-raid-Victorias-Secret-store.html
PA PATRIOT
07-26-11, 13:03
There are only so many band aids the government can keep slapping into major issues and once that box is empty its going to be hell to pay.
4x4twenty6
07-26-11, 13:38
It is not that the Government does not know the difference, it is that they dont give a shit.
They have their agenda and an idea of how they think the country should be.
They are so far off from the base it is sad.
We have California passing the Dream Act today which allows illegal immigrants to get scholarships to go to college. Funding comes from both the Federal Gov't and Tax payer dollars.
Everyday during these debt deals they lie to us saying that social security checks wont go out. More Bullshit, there are bonds to pay for social security in full. This idea of creating fear by the Gov't is an unbelievable tactic.
I could go on, but i wont. We need to educate ourselves on what is truly going on in our gov't and stop believing the hype.
Another "Flash Rob" at Vicky's Secret in DC. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018835/Facebook-Twitter-used-plan-flashrob-raid-Victorias-Secret-store.html
What if they did this to a gun store? Clearly the cops don't give two shits.
What if they did this to a gun store? Clearly the cops don't give two shits.
There would likely be a few of them not make it out, hopefully.
Having said that, guns are locked in cabinets (or at least behind the counter) so it's a harder score than clothing stores that have stuff out in the open. So, since it would be harder, the vast majority of the types that would be involved with that type of activity would go for an easier target.
4x4twenty6
07-26-11, 14:05
Dave. L:
Explain your assumption that "the cops dont give two shits".
I reread the story and dont understand how you came to this conclusion nor do I share the same sentiments.
Moose-Knuckle
07-26-11, 18:18
What if they did this to a gun store?
In my area the gun shop employees all open carry. If a mob of angry "utes" stormed in and started to grab everything in sight a hail of bullets would ensue.
Well, typically they burn their own neighborhoods and local communities. Once they step outside their AO I would thnks they would meet a very different response. Now, more thing come into play here, if the govt. moves to disarm the general public then there's no way to really stop them, but if that hasn't or never happens, then it will be full on war in the streets. Armed citizens aren't going to sit back and watch a mob of human trash work their way through a city; they will be met by... well, you know... people like us.
If the magical day comes when the gov't decides to cut off the entitlements, there will be war in the streets. Look at how they riot at a sports game WHEN THEIR OWN TEAM WINS! Imagine if they stop getting free money & are forced to get jobs?:eek:
They'll ravage their own neighborhoods first, then spread out looking to take whatever they can from whoever they can. Sometimes there are only a few miles separating the best & worst neighborhoods.
The day the gov't decides to disarm the public is the day this thread comes to life.
Moose-Knuckle
07-26-11, 19:03
If the day comes when the kitty runs dry all the welfare bums will come to "collect" from those of us in society whom they feel "owes" them.
Lock and load gentleman.
4x4twenty6
07-26-11, 19:12
Targets Engaged.
I work very close to my home, but my wife drives about 30 minutes downtown. Her AO would erupt way before it does here. That's why I keep trying to talk her into carrying.
If things are going to "tip" I sure wish we'd go ahead and get on with it. I ain't gettin' any younger. I got some fight in me now, but if this drags on for another 10, 15, or 20 years it's just not going to be as much fun.
what is everyones thoughts on this?
http://www.cityofboston.gov/news/Default.aspx?id=5212
For Immediate Release
July 25, 2011
Released By:
Mayor's Office For More Information Contact:
Mayor's Press Office
Press.Office@cityofboston.gov
Joint federal military training exercises will take place within and around the Boston area between July 26th and August 5th. Military personnel will conduct training exercises to ensure the military's ability to operate in urban environments, prepare forces for upcoming overseas deployments, and meet mandatory training certification requirements. Helicopters will be used in some exercises.
The Boston Police Department is working with military personnel to coordinate training sites that will minimize negative impacts on our Boston citizens and their daily routines. Safety precautions have been taken to prevent risk to the general public and the military personnel involved. With that, training site locations are not open to the public and will be guarded by uniformed personnel to provide additional safety.
###
Dave. L:
Explain your assumption that "the cops dont give two shits".
Yes Sir.
Police are there to serve and protect. In my opinion,the statements made to the press only stated the obvious and did nothing to reassure the public that they will do everything possible to prevent this in the future.
The main reason I don't think they [the police] "give two shits" is because the crime was non violent and the items stolen were lingerie.
I work very close to my home, but my wife drives about 30 minutes downtown. Her AO would erupt way before it does here. That's why I keep trying to talk her into carrying.
If things are going to "tip" I sure wish we'd go ahead and get on with it. I ain't gettin' any younger. I got some fight in me now, but if this drags on for another 10, 15, or 20 years it's just not going to be as much fun.
This is where having a plan as far as routes out of the city, link-up locations, "safe-areas", ect. as well as alternate communication plans would come in handy. Just simply being on the same page if "X-event" were to happen would put you ahead of the game. Maybe storing a handgun for your wife along with a "get-home-bag" in her car (in an area that is not readily accessible to prevent theft) is another option.
I got 11 acres of property in WAY West TX.. (like 14 miles from the Rio).. and 22 miles from the nearest SMALL town..
I'd feel safer out there FWIW..
the down side is.. I'm still stuck in the PA/NJ region for a few more years.. waiting for my son to hit at least 13 before I ROLL
thinking small 10x20 cabin and then a DUG in backup spot for 'spotting'
I have power and a dirt road.. but solar-panels with VERY long cables would be a plus and keep the panels LOW to the ground to keep from being tooo visable from distances..
what is everyones thoughts on this?
http://www.cityofboston.gov/news/Default.aspx?id=5212
This isn't new. It has a lot more to do with closing off a few areas and letting some units get some much needed training in urban areas. In places like Cali, we get to abuse old housing units and what not, in boston, there are far less resources. This happens anualy if I recall.
I remember the first time someone saw this a while back there was a big issue. Nobody wanted to be used in a training program to enhanced anyone's ability to wage war on the citizens of Boston. In reality, it's just a fancy way of saying "the only real urban areas we can train in are real ones, so that's going to be going on for a few days. Dont worry, there is no real hostage situation, and we will do everything we can to not create more traffic jams."
4x4twenty6
07-27-11, 10:40
Dave L:
You do realize that the role of police are more reactive than pro active, right? Add in that a lot of departmants are under manned and have a variety of over things like traffic accidents, civil bullshit, alarms oh and violent crimes to handle.
Tell me, what could they have said to make you feel more warm and fuzzy inside?
There is a good chance that they won't be able to prevent it next time, unless there is positive identification of a suspect from a witness, maybe latent finger prints or a if a photo is posted on the evening news and someone recognizes them.
So you just think just because the crime is non violent that police dont give a shit... How bout this perspective; businesses such as Lowes and Walmart dont give a shit about stolen goods. They would rather have a person walk out of the store with stolen merchandise than have an officer or loss prevention person confront them and cause injury because of the possibility of a lawsuit. A lot of businesses feel this way.
The judicial system does not take non violent crimes seriously.
I am sorry but your reasoning and comments are asinine.
This is where having a plan as far as routes out of the city, link-up locations, "safe-areas", ect. as well as alternate communication plans would come in handy. Just simply being on the same page if "X-event" were to happen would put you ahead of the game. Maybe storing a handgun for your wife along with a "get-home-bag" in her car (in an area that is not readily accessible to prevent theft) is another option.
Yeah, our plans have backup plans with backup plans, and we have several rally points based on available routes out of town. In the event that she had to leave and we had no comms we've based different sites on time so we would eventually link up. I have a b-o-b and a get-home-bag in her car. Pretty decent setup minus the handgun... so far. She takes the bag into her office in the case that she can't get to her car.
YWHIC: My family has some land in the Terlingua area.
4x4twenty6
07-27-11, 11:24
I go back and forth on the issue of leaving the wifes vehicle or taking it.
It is one more vehicle to have to worry about fuel for but if we end up with an all out SHTF situation it would be nice to have the extra vehicle for various reasons. My go to place is 6 hours from where i live now. I would ultimately feel more comfortable with the wife and dogs in my truck with me than the wife driving her own suv if shit gets ugly during the drive.
Wifes vehicle is also very unreliable for a 2006 with 80k miles. she had to have that pos grand cherokee. not a mopar fan at all.
Interesting thread and commentaries. Living in an upscale gated community away from the maddening zombie hordes and working in an upper/middle class area, I was never concerned about returning home in the event of civil unrest due to (fill in reason). Also, have 'get me home' bag and daily ccw. It shames me and am also quite embarrassed that I have not considered my wife's return from work were such a (insert situation here) to occur while she was at her place of employment. Will now discuss/prepare accordingly ! Wow, do I feel like a complete jerk for letting this slip my mind, esp since I am involved in Disaster Medicine and local PD response teams....:(
If the magical day comes when the gov't decides to cut off the entitlements, there will be war in the streets. Look at how they riot at a sports game WHEN THEIR OWN TEAM WINS! Imagine if they stop getting free money & are forced to get jobs?:eek:
They'll ravage their own neighborhoods first, then spread out looking to take whatever they can from whoever they can. Sometimes there are only a few miles separating the best & worst neighborhoods.
.
They can be contained and order can be restored, but I wonder if there are enough people out there that can make it happen. Force is the only way to stop riots.
Interesting thread and commentaries. Living in an upscale gated community away from the maddening zombie hordes and working in an upper/middle class area, I was never concerned about returning home in the event of civil unrest due to (fill in reason). Also, have 'get me home' bag and daily ccw. It shames me and am also quite embarrassed that I have not considered my wife's return from work were such a (insert situation here) to occur while she was at her place of employment. Will now discuss/prepare accordingly ! Wow, do I feel like a complete jerk for letting this slip my mind, esp since I am involved in Disaster Medicine and local PD response teams....:(
What level of chaos do you think your gated community could handle? How many in there think about such things? Those gates don't take much to open for the determined.
I go back and forth on the issue of leaving the wifes vehicle or taking it.
It is one more vehicle to have to worry about fuel for but if we end up with an all out SHTF situation it would be nice to have the extra vehicle for various reasons. My go to place is 6 hours from where i live now. I would ultimately feel more comfortable with the wife and dogs in my truck with me than the wife driving her own suv if shit gets ugly during the drive.
Wifes vehicle is also very unreliable for a 2006 with 80k miles. she had to have that pos grand cherokee. not a mopar fan at all.
If they are the same I say take both, I have 2 F250's and they both will go with me.
In your situation I say leave the jeep.
4x4twenty6
07-27-11, 15:17
Ryan: Having two of the same vehicles is awesome. Especially if they are identical which means of course parts are interchangeable. That is a favorable position to be in.
That Jeep will most likely stay in a given situation because it kills at random. No CEL or anything. It may not be around in a month.
I have an 05' f150 4x4, i wouldnt leave that. I love my truck and it is in great condition.
All this gloom and doom bullshit with the gov't and economy is ridiculous. So many lies being spouted. Though I do wonder what the ramifications will be when they lower the US credit rating.
Could we see the beginning of people holding public shows of gov't disaproval as soon as next month? God only knows....
Interesting thread and commentaries. Living in an upscale gated community away from the maddening zombie hordes and working in an upper/middle class area, I was never concerned about returning home in the event of civil unrest due to (fill in reason). Also, have 'get me home' bag and daily ccw. It shames me and am also quite embarrassed that I have not considered my wife's return from work were such a (insert situation here) to occur while she was at her place of employment. Will now discuss/prepare accordingly ! Wow, do I feel like a complete jerk for letting this slip my mind, esp since I am involved in Disaster Medicine and local PD response teams....:(
Better late than never to take care of the wife. Now you are aware, prepare accordingly. As for the gated community being immune from harm, you'd better hope that your country club neighbors have AR's in their golf bags instead of clubs. My wealthy friends in gated communities are the only ones with any hardware. Their neighbors are clueless to the reality of a disaster effecting them. Their plans are to hide behind their piles of investment statements if bullets fly. Good luck to them.
drsal: Yeah, I'd prolly throw in some plans that include the wife. I started my planning talking to my wife with my plan for her which gave her the warm fuzzy's and allowed me to devote a little more time to the overall plan.
I think if the welfare zombie hordes venture into more affluent areas and are not met with an immediate and violent response that would spread like wildfire and get bad quick. Deciding when to bug out is really a tough decision. Having kids changes everything so all decisions have to involve keeping them safe first. If that means bugging out as soon as the shtf and monitoring the situation from one of the rally points (if possible) then I'll do that. If it looks localized in the ratty parts of town and it doesn't look like the zombies would start probing into my area in numbers that me and my nearby associates couldn't handle then I'd much rather stay put and protect my home and belongings too. Another option is get the fam out to one of the rally points and come back and link up with the aforementioned associates and protect the neighborhood. There really are endless scenarios...
Very few, if any, of my neighbors I believe are armed properly, I am; as are the guards at the gate. My community is also a bit out of the way for the civil disobedience crowd to find.
Ryan: Having two of the same vehicles is awesome. Especially if they are identical which means of course parts are interchangeable. That is a favorable position to be in.
That Jeep will most likely stay in a given situation because it kills at random. No CEL or anything. It may not be around in a month.
I have an 05' f150 4x4, i wouldnt leave that. I love my truck and it is in great condition.
All this gloom and doom bullshit with the gov't and economy is ridiculous. So many lies being spouted. Though I do wonder what the ramifications will be when they lower the US credit rating.
Could we see the beginning of people holding public shows of gov't disaproval as soon as next month? God only knows....
Yes,sir that F150 would have to go with. I went to work one morning and the boss said "Buy the company or hunt for a job" and the 05 F250 came with it. I already had an 03 F250 4x4, they are close enough that most parts interchange. They are both gas, wish they were diesel.
Who knows about the Govt. disaproval demonstrations/riots.
Don't be suprised if the guttles politicians cave and meet in the middle where nothing gets solved. I'd rather they went as extreme as possible and solved real problems now instead of band-aiding it only to make it worse the next time around. If the country rebooting means riots then so be it. It's going to have to happen eventually. I'm prepared. The people that would riot now aren't going to not riot later. It's a growing unrest that we all see every day. Bring it on, let's get on with it and come out on the other side better off. Whatever "better off" means.
You know, the recent flash mob incidents are disturbing. This is a first step into what we've been discussing. The demographic and it's mentality that is at the center of this trend is going to be the same that we're fighting when the shtf. They will in fact be the s that is h-ing the fan. Lawless mobs of people that think they're owed something by the rest of us, and now they're empowered by the fact that they're getting away with such a visible crime in broad daylight. Watch the frequency of this type of crime increase over the next few months.
You know, the recent flash mob incidents are disturbing. This is a first step into what we've been discussing. The demographic and it's mentality that is at the center of this trend is going to be the same that we're fighting when the shtf. They will in fact be the s that is h-ing the fan. Lawless mobs of people that think they're owed something by the rest of us, and now they're empowered by the fact that they're getting away with such a visible crime in broad daylight. Watch the frequency of this type of crime increase over the next few months.
Very astute last two posts...can't say I disagree with anything you said. However, you and I both know that the O-crew is going to do NOTHING that would be seen as a slight against the welfare group due to the proximity of elections, empowering them further and just delaying the inevitable...all I can say is be prepared (physically, spiritually, emotionally ect.) because its only gonna get worse.
4x4twenty6
07-28-11, 08:18
Just heard that 3 soldiers were just arrested at Fort Hood for planning attacks. Apparently explosives and weapons were found supporting the claims.
I really can't wrap my head around this. ****ing Un Real!
Yeah this is a tough one. Don't just focus on the Army or Ft. Hood. Assume that the enemy has infiltrated Law Enforcement on local, state and federal levels, private security, and without a doubt the wonderful government on all levels.
Nassar Abdo is his name... what a surprise. I bet the NY Times was hoping his name was Bob Smith and he was a Christian.
Just heard that 3 soldiers were just arrested at Fort Hood for planning attacks. Apparently explosives and weapons were found supporting the claims.
I really can't wrap my head around this. ****ing Un Real!
Here ya go. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1058856&posted=1#post1058856
NoveskeFan
07-28-11, 09:42
Yeah this is a tough one. Don't just focus on the Army or Ft. Hood. Assume that the enemy has infiltrated Law Enforcement on local, state and federal levels, private security, and without a doubt the wonderful government on all levels.
Nassar Abdo is his name... what a surprise. I bet the NY Times was hoping his name was Bob Smith and he was a Christian.
Its kinda scary to think about sleeper cells and how terrorists are known to plan and plan and sit and wait. But also, I wonder how many out there (in the USA) are recruited into those cells, either by choice or coercion.
QuietShootr
07-28-11, 09:45
Just heard that 3 soldiers were just arrested at Fort Hood for planning attacks. Apparently explosives and weapons were found supporting the claims.
I really can't wrap my head around this. ****ing Un Real!
Yeah. US military uniforms are not reliable IFF.
Trip on this shit. Attempt to overthrow Mexican Gov't in 2012:
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/july202011/los-zetas-ca.php
4x4twenty6
07-28-11, 11:07
LRS143, you could not be more correct +1.
Irish: thanks for posting the link I was having difficulty findIng it earlier.
Kimberfan: It is terrifying to think what is out and there, lurking right in front of us. I know of a bunch of targets and their vulnerability because the swat team I was a part of back home in new Orleans were beginning to do first responder training for such terrorist events.
If it s obvious to us then I am sure it has already been thought of by the enemy.
Hungry people commit crimes to feed themselves and their loved ones. http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/articles/2011/07/28/ranks_of_hungry_children_swell_worrying_doctors/
Doctors at a major Boston hospital report they are seeing more hungry and dangerously thin young children in the emergency room than at any time in more than a decade of surveying families.
dracconian
07-28-11, 12:22
To my brothers down south, if things get to hot, I am sure some of the Canucks on this board would be willing to take some guest into their homes. I can take some, but I hope you are not allergic to cats.:D
Scary times.
4x4twenty6
07-28-11, 12:23
Maybe i am just a huge prick, but i believe that if you can not afford children then you should not have them.
I am not advocating abortion at all, i am and was raised catholic. It is irresponsible to have children if you do not have the financial means to support that child. It is unfair to the child and to the tax payers who ultimately end up supporting you and your child.
In the story irish posted it was talking about a single mother with no job not being able to support herself or her child. Where is the sperm donor?
That is one of the huge problems this country faces. A bunch of irresponsible people coming from families who do not teach responsibility. I know it happens in all social classes of people but if you do no have the family support/ financial means then use a goddamn rubber. they hand them out for free at ****ing clinics!
I do not feel bad for them, i feel bad for the children that are suffering because of their lack of responsibility.
My sister in law got pregnant her senior year of high school, she graduated may of 09'. OOPS! She had multiple full ride scholarships to college for soccer and was a straight A student, that went out the window. She had her baby in September after she graduated from high school and took summer classes so she could sit out her first semester of college to take care of her baby. Now 2 years after all this happened she managed to go college full time, work part time and she is now in nursing school at 20 years old. It can be done if you have the drive to do it. The father was around too and worked to help support his child. I dont particularly like the guy very much but he loves his little girl.
No gov't assistance either.
Moose-Knuckle
07-28-11, 13:45
Hungry people commit crimes to feed themselves and their loved ones. http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/articles/2011/07/28/ranks_of_hungry_children_swell_worrying_doctors/
I'm sure these doctors are employed by a county facility giving "free" health care to welfare types.
During a true SHTF scenario even hard working tax payers would find themselves doing things that they would not normally do to feed their children.
During a true SHTF scenario even hard working tax payers would find themselves doing things that they would not normally do to feed their children.
Totally agreed. I'm just looking at "trends" in the general sense of the word. Economy sucks, less jobs, more expensive food, etc. are all contributing factors to things coming off the rail.
This may be a little further out there than some other stuff I've linked to. Either way, great conversation thus far.
4x4twenty6
07-28-11, 16:44
During a SHTF situation if our money becomes useless some groups of folks will be stealing Escalades and flat screen tv's while others are stealing generators, food and other supplies.
Refer to Katrina on how groups of people will behave.
If the SHTF and our money does become useless; am i the only one who thinks it is ok to link beer and whiskey as essential survival supplies? haha
During a SHTF situation if our money becomes useless some groups of folks will be stealing Escalades and flat screen tv's while others are stealing generators, food and other supplies.
Refer to Katrina on how groups of people will behave.
If the SHTF and our money does become useless; am i the only one who thinks it is ok to link beer and whiskey as essential survival supplies? haha
Nope! Great for bartering............and for helping to forget how bad the situation sucks! :lol:
NoveskeFan
07-28-11, 16:51
Nope! Great for bartering............and for helping to forget how bad the situation sucks! :lol:
Guys doing the home brew thing will be set...or some of the first targeted for raids.:alcoholic:
Yeah, I've thought about storing a few cases of Jack for later.
4x4twenty6
07-28-11, 18:49
I had a feeling I wouldn't be the only one that felt that way.
Good Stuff.
Moose-Knuckle
07-28-11, 19:13
Even now while things are “normal” I do not like to be inebriated. I especially do not want to be at a loss of my faculties if and when the SHTF. That said, I do feel it is necessary to have some hard liquor on hand for bartering and or medicinal purposes.
Even now while things are “normal” I do not like to be inebriated. I especially do not want to be at a loss of my faculties if and when the SHTF. That said, I do feel it is necessary to have some hard liquor on hand for bartering and or medicinal purposes.
Lol, just so you guys don't think I'm an alcoholic, I am in 100% complete aggreance with you Moose....the second part of my post was more for humor.
This has got to be the strangest, sickest, most twisted yet
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/police-homeless-woman-snatches-baby-from-stroller-tries-to-eat-its-arm/
ETA I say this without conviction, had that been my child, bitch woulda been DOA PDQ, shot in the face so HOP would approve.
Moose-Knuckle
07-28-11, 20:03
Lol, just so you guys don't think I'm an alcoholic, I am in 100% complete aggreance with you Moose....the second part of my post was more for humor.
Nah, I didn't think that about you. We all have our poisons, mine happens to be tequila. ;)
In the mini-series The Stand, after the SHTF the main character requisitioned some beer still tethered together by the six pack ring that he would tie to the bank of a river and submerge, couple hours later nice cold brewsky!
This has got to be the strangest, sickest, most twisted yet
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/police-homeless-woman-snatches-baby-from-stroller-tries-to-eat-its-arm/
ETA I say this without conviction, had that been my child, bitch woulda been DOA PDQ, shot in the face so HOP would approve.
I seriously got queasy after reading that...wow...
Moose-Knuckle
07-28-11, 20:13
This has got to be the strangest, sickest, most twisted yet
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/police-homeless-woman-snatches-baby-from-stroller-tries-to-eat-its-arm/
ETA I say this without conviction, had that been my child, bitch woulda been DOA PDQ, shot in the face so HOP would approve.
You don't see that everyday. I bet if that was a white "homeless" woman she'd have a hate crime on her.
How can a parent sit there and allow an oxygen thief to rip their child from a stroller, slam them against a pole, and then proceed to chow down on their arm?
QuietShootr
07-28-11, 20:16
I seriously got queasy after reading that...wow...I wouldn't think twice about snapping that *thing's* neck!
Reavers.
You don't see that everyday. I bet if that was a white "homeless" woman she'd have a hate crime on her.
How can a parent sit there and allow an oxygen thief to rip their child from a stroller, slam them against a pole, and then proceed to chow down on their arm?
I dont know, but if any of your wives have been on the fence about CCW show them that.
I thought body snatching zombies werent real.
Reavers.
I didnt know what that was so I googled it, the wikipedia definition has a picture of her sister.
4x4twenty6
07-28-11, 21:19
WTF!!!!!
I would have beaten that woman to death and probably taken pleasure in it had that been my child. Holy Shit!
I have beat someones ass for far less than that. I would not have been able to stop.
We need a Post SHTF m4carbine.net Members Safe Zone, but we need to come up with a shorter name for it. Talk about law and order!
There is a reason I have an AR15, after all!
If there is mass SHTF, I have barter in the way of liquor, things i can make, give people a place to tent (back two acres, under watch of course, downhill of me) for a night, surplus of food, give someone a hole to curl up in, some medical/first aid knowledge, etc.
If it comes right down to it, if I need something (i'm pretty well squared away right now, solar and battery bank, food/water/ammo/meds/secure locale) badly, I'll go as far as I must to get it for me and mine.
I pray that with where I live, I'll never face any of those threats when things go down. I'd rather just garden and hunt and trap and fish and never fire a shot in anger my whole life.
And about that crazy who latched onto that baby, if someone did that to my kid I'd be down a few 9x19's. That sick, inhuman...
I'm gonna stop.
Just a Jarhead
07-29-11, 03:04
I'd rather just garden and hunt and trap and fish and never fire a shot in anger my whole life.
I think that can be said of most of us! All George Washington wanted to do was go home to his farm. Sometimes we don't fully appreciate the simple peaceful life when we have it & how wonderful it is. Cherish it while we have it! Sit on your back deck or front porch, have a glass of wine or beer or Jack and be still.
We need a Post SHTF m4carbine.net Members Safe Zone, but we need to come up with a shorter name for it. Talk about law and order!
M4C LALD (live and let die)
Yeah, if it were just me, that would be different, but having kids and a wife to think about constantly would be very stressful in a shtf type of world. Every moment when they were out of your site you would be worried unless you had dependable people around in your absence. This is one reason why you have to have imo at least a few like minded people to make a small group. I've watched Falling Skies a few times and while it's "Hollywooded up" it's kind of post shtf w/aliens and there's been some seperation of families scenarios. They patrol, go on resupply missions (basically looting missions), and they go on little sar missions. They have a large group and there are those that have duties, and then there are some that are JUST parasitic. I think if I were in a group scenario, I would have to evaluate people on a case-by-case basis. If it were someone that had something to offer the group then they would be accepted more easily, someone that could offer something but wouldn't would go in my worthless scumbag denied access category, and then there are those that would if they could, but because of age (old or young), injury, or a disability or something they just can't category which any compassionate person would help.
Decent representation of the way things would need to be set up in any post shtf community, but like I said "Hollywooded up".
Van Jones speaking to his pethetic followers in a post shtf US.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/van-jones-gop-faction-puts-gun-to-the-head-of-310-million-people/?corder=desc
I think ole Van Jones would immediately become an HVT post shtf!
4x4twenty6
07-29-11, 14:10
Pure Ignorance! People actually believe and follow this guy!?
The right wing, tea Partiers are the best chance of job creation at this point.
Oh trust me... there will be a clear divide one of these days between morons that follow people like Van Jones because they're to stupid to see the actual truth and people like us.
Van Jones speaking to his pethetic followers in a post shtf US.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/van-jones-gop-faction-puts-gun-to-the-head-of-310-million-people/?corder=desc
I think ole Van Jones would immediately become an HVT post shtf!
60-70% huh? I guess if he says it enough SOMEBODY will believe him :rolleyes:
I wonder how many of the people there even know what they were there for?! I wonder how many of those people are on government handouts themselves? I wonder how many of those people there even vote (unless they are bussed to the polls and TOLD who to vote for)?!
Exactly my point... he's speaking to the mindless masses that believe his crap. And the other point of my point is this group is the group that we will eventually have to deal with eventually.
4x4twenty6
07-29-11, 16:45
How are people with jobs able to go to all of these rallies and .....
oh wait nevermind.
60-70% of the dumbest mf'ers on earth with no concept of self sufficiency believe this guy.
Van Jones and his president and anyone else on their side of the block are intentionally creating a divisive atmosphere in the US now. They lie every day and are priming the class warfare pumps. I guarantee you things are more unstable between the middle and lower classes in America than they ever have been. We are really on the verge of some real chaos. I really believe this and I wish it weren't this way, but it is. I talk to my wife about this a lot because when things get ugly I want her calm.
Moose-Knuckle
07-30-11, 17:08
28 July 2011
Flash Mob riot in Los Angeles.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2011/0728/Social-media-mayhem-when-flash-mobs-go-from-benign-to-malign
Increased frequency of incidents like this.
I'd rather fight this fight now instead of 5-10 years from now when the mob mentality population has grown 10 fold because of amnesty programs and more and more govt. handout recipients.
PA PATRIOT
07-31-11, 13:07
It appears this thread has become less informational and more so degraded into a social and racial bash event.
I always expected M4Carbine.net to be above other forums which degrade good information threads into personal rants of the "Other People" and how bad the "Other Side" of society is.
Maybe this thread can be reborn into what the title asks,
Are you prepared for Mass Civil Disobedience.
QuietShootr
07-31-11, 13:32
It appears this thread has become less informational and more so degraded into a social and racial bash event.
I always expected M4Carbine.net to be above other forums which degrade good information threads into personal rants of the "Other People" and how bad the "Other Side" of society is.
Maybe this thread can be reborn into what the title asks,
Are you prepared for Mass Civil Disobedience.
I have a proposal for everyone: Since we can't say what we actually mean without being castigated for racism, sexism, classism, or whatever your favorite -ism is, I will hereafter be substituting the word "zombie" for whatever I'm actually talking about. Until the NAAZP, NOIZ, SZLC, or COZE get off the ground and start filing lawsuits, I think it'll be safe.
Now, we can speak the hypothetical truth without fear of some liberal asswipe who happens to own guns start up with the racist teabagger KKK bullshit.
Carry on.
It appears this thread has become less informational and more so degraded into a social and racial bash event.
I always expected M4Carbine.net to be above other forums which degrade good information threads into personal rants of the "Other People" and how bad the "Other Side" of society is.
Maybe this thread can be reborn into what the title asks,
Are you prepared for Mass Civil Disobedience.
Really? Wow we are racists now boy I tell ya. The links to news articles are informational in that they paint a picture of what we are preparing for. The personal opinions, well they are from experience. You also do not need to be a racist to strongly oppose Van Jones and his agenda.
It appears this thread has become less informational and more so degraded into a social and racial bash event.
I always expected M4Carbine.net to be above other forums which degrade good information threads into personal rants of the "Other People" and how bad the "Other Side" of society is.
Way to "rise above" and ignore all the facts presented in this thread. :rolleyes:
Part of being properly prepared for a civil disobedience is to first understand the problems we are facing.
It appears this thread has become less informational and more so degraded into a social and racial bash event.
I always expected M4Carbine.net to be above other forums which degrade good information threads into personal rants of the "Other People" and how bad the "Other Side" of society is.
Maybe this thread can be reborn into what the title asks,
Are you prepared for Mass Civil Disobedience.
That is some liberal PC bullcrap if I've ever seen it dude...I have been with this thread from the beginning and the only thing I have seen is people calling a spade a spade! And in case you're wondering, I am a "minority", not some "bubba redneck" who is "blinded by his own color". It doesn't matter if you're black, white, brown, red, or yellow, if you're trash and leach off of hard working Americans (because the gov facillitates distribution of wealth) then you are trash! No two ways about it!...btw..."racism" goes both ways.
PA PATRIOT
07-31-11, 14:40
Wonder if most here talking big have the balls to tell some of these "Other People" or Zombies their personal views, I highly doubt it.
I openly hate everyone equally and believe no one is better then anyone else unless their actions affect me directly. Barring that I treat everyone with respect no matter what race or social condition they live in.
It appears that trying to be open minded to all people makes me a liberal ass wipe according to Quietshootr if so then thats a title I will proudly wear.
For the record I'M anti entitlement except for Social Security, Medicare and Unemployment for those who paid into the system all there life's. I believe one should work for what they receive and nothing should be expected from the state or government.
Hell I don't know why I even took concern about the direction of this thread, its only the Internet and the anonymous that post on it.
Wonder if most here talking big have the balls to tell some of these "Other People" or Zombies their personal views, I highly doubt it.
I openly hate everyone equally and believe no one is better then anyone else unless their actions affect me directly. Barring that I treat everyone with respect no matter what race or social condition they live in.
It appears that trying to be open minded to all people makes me a liberal ass wipe according to Quietshootr if so then thats a title I will proudly wear.
For the record I'M anti entitlement except for Social Security, Medicare and Unemployment for those who paid into the system all there life's. I believe one should work for what they receive and nothing should be expected from the state or government.
Hell I don't know why I even took concern about the direction of this thread, its only the Internet and the anonymous that post on it.
5 characters
High Tower
07-31-11, 15:41
So what you are saying is that this forum would be of a higher class if we were all PC and kept our heads in the sand when major issues/threats concern certain groups of people?
Huh. Maybe I need more sleep as that does not make any sense. If these groups of people are already blatantly ignoring the law, why would they all of a sudden become stellar citizens when the law no longer has effect? If they threaten my way of life now, they will be a bigger threat later on.
And just so I am clear, this covers all threats, race or socioeconomic status is not the factor you assert it to be.
I think if the thread were read instead of skimmed and attacked it would have been obvious that the things that were said were directly linked to the title. As far as telling anyone on either side my personal views... my balls are huge!
QuietShootr
07-31-11, 17:53
Wonder if most here talking big have the balls to tell some of these "Other People" or Zombies their personal views, I highly doubt it.
You'd lose that bet.
100% of the folks who have pulled guns on me (5 in three incidents) in a civilian context have been zombies. Has that colored my perception of zombies and zombie behavior? Abso****inlutely. As Heinlein wrote, "Hear hoofbeats. Expect horses, not zebras."
Wonder if most here talking big have the balls to tell some of these "Other People" or Zombies their personal views, I highly doubt it.
I openly hate everyone equally and believe no one is better then anyone else unless their actions affect me directly. Barring that I treat everyone with respect no matter what race or social condition they live in.
I don't think it has anything to do with "balls". It has everything to do with prudence. Why would any wise man (not referring to you PhilaPD) start a shit storm with nothing to gain? We are all adults here talking about a topic. As far as I can tell, the only anger here is directed towards the takers in society and those who lead them.
I also believe in treating everyone with respect until their actions cause me to do so otherwise. However, I'm far too wise to try to start shit, potentially creating violence, when walking away would be the smarter choice. Going around telling "zombies" how I really feel for no good reason isn't very smart. Now, if some "zombies" were to bring trouble to me and mine, then I will do my very best to bring it.
It appears that trying to be open minded to all people makes me a liberal ass wipe according to Quietshootr if so then thats a title I will proudly wear.
I don't necessarily think of you that way, but I do think you have read way too much into what has been posted, similar in the ways that many liberals try to kill honest conversation by invoking racism.
For the record, I do appreciate your contribution to the forum and have found many of your posts informative.
For the record I'M anti entitlement except for Social Security, Medicare and Unemployment for those who paid into the system all there life's. I believe one should work for what they receive and nothing should be expected from the state or government.
Hell I don't know why I even took concern about the direction of this thread, its only the Internet and the anonymous that post on it.
Part of the problem we are talking about is SS, Medicare, and Unemployment recipients. There are those who fraudulently collect Social Security Disability. There are those who fraudulently use Medicare. There are also those on unemployment for nearly two years when unemployment was never intended to be for that long. Many people purposely collect the unemployment benefit instead of finding work.
I'm not sure if this is still happening now, but I have extended family that started collecting Social Security and Medicare the moment they got their "Green Card" back in the 80s. They came to the U.S. after their 65th birthday and have never paid a dime into the system. Sure this is all legal, because re-election seeking, social engineering politicians have sold us out and perverted the SS system into something it was never intended to be. The same is true for many of the social programs started with good intentions.
The general frustration is being directed towards society's leeches (and those that lead them) as a whole. The leaders of the leeches maintain their positions of leadership by promising more to the leeches.
I am not talking about legitimate Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment benefits recipients.
I have to agree that this thread is on the "line" (it could go over at any time), even though it is all true and factually based. It is a good thread and I would not like to see it closed because someone get a little butt hurt about some TRUE comments. Hence forth the entitlement masses should be referred to as “Zombies”. I mean they act the same anyway.
Racism is the tool of the liberals to prove a point whenever they do not have a logical argument for the BS that they spew.
If you say that Islamic extremists are the terrorist then you are anti religion, if you say that illegals are a problem you are a racist, if you say that the lazy poor with entitlement issues are a drain on society you are an elitist. It is the nature of the beast when you can’t speak with any kind of intelligent point then you will revert to an emotional argument.
Come on, no one likes zombies. :jester:
4x4twenty6
08-01-11, 10:04
Phila PD:
I dont believe any race has been singled out at all on this thread.
So your comment is inherintly racist.
I do not like being called a racist or even implied that i am a racist. I hate all trash equally.
A lot of the same people on this thread, including my self have commented on the Canton Ohio PD incident thread.
That officer is white, i am white (obviously look at my avatar) and alot of us have posted strong comments about that officers poor behavior.
Go check it out.
Each person on this forum comes from different areas of the country with all types experience whether being a cop, military or a valuable, educated and aware citizen. So for you to assume that one particular race is being singled out, with no proof is in and of itself somewhat racist and totally ignorant.
Just ignore him. His troll worked and the thread has already been hijacked by it. Being called a "racist" forces most people into a knee-jerk reactive mode, but I think our members are better than that and can see through the button pushing.
Only one more step to degrade the whole thing into Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)
Yeah, I've thought about storing a few cases of Jack for later.
I'm a wild turkey guy but maybe I'd have to make some sacrifices and drink Jack if the world ends :D
I love this section of the forum...it has helped me and the fiancee build-up the 'survival corner' in our basement
it's gone from just a flashlight and canned goods.
to
5 gal gamma buckets, Coleman propane lanterns/burner, etc. (I can't credit it ALL to this forum though...a few friends are Mormon and have helped me out)
4x4twenty6
08-01-11, 13:44
All i can say is that i am not prepared enough for the SHTF.
It is only going to get worse w/ this new debt deal.
All i can say is that i am not prepared enough for the SHTF.
It is only going to get worse w/ this new debt deal.
I don't think any of us are prepared enough and should never feel like we are. I have found there is always something new to learn and something else to stock up on.
I recently started buying metals, especially since our Gov. is currently working out a way to print another 2.4T of worthless "Federal Reserve Notes".
Moose-Knuckle
08-01-11, 14:15
Glad to see this thread back on track, let's keep it that way! To much good intel in it to get it locked up.
It wasn't that long ago in our nation's history that cattle barons and their cowboys fought range wars with homesteaders, farmers, smaller ranchers, et al over fresh water. There is a DOD think tank in DC that is comprised of some of the most gifted minds our military academies have ever produced. There is a speculation that in the near future nations will be raging war amongst themselves over fresh water.
And in other news. . .
Record percentage of United States experiences 'exceptional drought'
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/01/us.record.drought/index.html?eref=igoogledmn_topstories
. There is a speculation that in the near future nations will be raging war amongst themselves over fresh water.
I recently read "One Second After" and am almost finished with "Lights Out", both reinforce the importance of being able to procure fresh water (and food).
On the water note, I have a very savvy investor friend who believes that freshwater(and the ability to make it) will be the next international Gold mine.
And in other news. . .
Record percentage of United States experiences 'exceptional drought'
Good point Moose! Along those same lines there is a lot of speculation as to when we'll be confronted with a major food crisis in the not too distant future. This (http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/20-signs-that-a-horrific-global-food-crisis-is-coming) is a decent article highlighting some of the signs of an impending shortage. If you'd like additional information Google: food crisis 2011 for tons of information.
QuietShootr
08-01-11, 14:31
I don't think any of us are prepared enough and should never feel like we are. I have found there is always something new to learn and something else to stock up on.
I recently started buying metals, especially since our Gov. is currently working out a way to print another 2.4T of worthless "Federal Reserve Notes".
I have been thinking about that myself, but now is for sure not the time to get INTO gold.
However: the general lesson is that you should never trust things that don't have INHERENT value, like guns, drugs/medicines, precious metals, or daughters.
Preparing... never totally prepared!
I just got my wife to where each time she hits the grocery store she buys goods with decently long shelf life. As we progress through next year and beyond (if possible) we'll be rotating most of those items to extend the dates. Ammo and other gear is my AO and I do that on an ongoing basis too.
I have been thinking about that myself, but now is for sure not the time to get INTO gold.
However: the general lesson is that you should never trust things that don't have INHERENT value, like guns, drugs/medicines, precious metals, or daughters.
I would get into pre 64 silver coins as they are much more affordable.
QuietShootr
08-01-11, 18:25
I would get into pre 64 silver coins as they are much more affordable.
Aye. I have a couple of big bags of pre-64 silver dimes. I guess I need more.
4x4twenty6
08-01-11, 18:57
I'm going to invest in brass, gunpowder and lead before anything else. haha
I'm going to invest in brass, gunpowder and lead before anything else. haha
Aren't we all......:jester:
I recently read "One Second After" and am almost finished with "Lights Out", both reinforce the importance of being able to procure fresh water (and food).
On the water note, I have a very savvy investor friend who believes that freshwater(and the ability to make it) will be the next international Gold mine.
The water issue is a tough nut to crack. I have been looking at hand pumps that I can retro-fit my current eletric well pump. No luck so far. Has anyone else looked into this?
Moose-Knuckle
08-02-11, 03:32
On the water note, I have a very savvy investor friend who believes that freshwater(and the ability to make it) will be the next international Gold mine.
It's already happened. . .
The Bush dynasty has purchased 100K acres in Paraguay for the water tables there.
Texas billionare T. Boone Pickens has invested $100 Million in the procurement of water rights.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_25/b4089040017753.htm
http://washingtonexaminer.com/node/207036
Corporations like Nestlé are getting in on the action too.
http://worldwaterwars.com/UnitedStates/Michigan/index.htm
As for bullion, I am honestly thinking about liquidating my retirement and purchase gold with it. At this point, money tied up in 401Ks, hedge funds, retirement plans, et al will all be going the way of Social Security. By the time I hit retirement age it won't be there or it won't be worth the paper it's printed on . . . provided the fan doesn't get hit with feces before then.
I've been debating with myself about posting on this particular thread, however I cannot resist a chance to stir the pot a bit. So, first I'll say that I am astonished at the tangents that this thread has sidestepped into over the last twenty five pages. There is a lot of valuable information here but it gets lost in pseudo-political diatribes.
I am not a Dem or a Rep. "Liberal" and "Conservative" are just media buzzwords now, not a true definition of who we are as citizens of this country. In your day to day life we work, socialize, shoot, hunt and compete with others from all backgrounds. We do this in a civilized manner and this cooperation is what made the US what we are. Now to address a few specific points that I feel must be clarified.
First and foremost, in the event of another Katrina-type event or mass civil unrest, the law enforcement authority can NO LONGER CONFISCATE YOUR LEGALY POSSESSED FIREARMS by federal law. (Yes, they could still try but if SHTF in a BIG way then it wouldn't really matter anyway.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaster_Recovery_Personal_Protection_Act_of_2006
I would also like to suggest that you give those so-called "hippies" a second consideration. I don't know about the rest of you guys but I can't do it all. No one can be an expert in everything. I can handle the engineering, foraging, etc. I also have a considerably potent brown thumb. I can't sew anything more than a patch. I could probably figure out how to make a basket or some pottery but there are only so many hours in the day. My take? I'll invite the gay guy and his partner (who's been a steady friend since junior high) into my compound. Why? You should see their garden!
What about that herbalist granola chick and her computer geek husband next door? Absolutely! What are you going to do for meds once your IFAK is gone? Go to Walgreens? I think not. I'll let her go traipsing through the woods all day making antibiotics and other necessary compounds, while the geek and I try to keep the electrics up and running.
Bottom line is, diversification is a winning plan. A compound full of hunters makes as much sense as a commune full of gatherers. It doesn't matter who they are, what color they are, who they sleep with or even if they pray or not. It makes no sense to just have a ton of shooters and leave the other stuff to the "women-folk."
DO YOU TRUST THEM WITH YOUR LIFE?
I'll put my trust in a lifelong friendship before some big talker down at the range. We won't hear the black helos coming... bin Laden sure didn't. "...shooting a hippie neighbor." may not be the best plan, especially if that neighbor knows how to raise yeast. (someone say home brew?)
One last bit of advice from a guy who worked in the big newsrooms (FOX, ABC, MSNBC) that YOU are responsible for what you know. Do your homework. Don't get your news from just one source, Rush, Beck, Matthews, Coulter, Olbermann, Madow... they're all the same. The facts are always somewhere between the rhetorical extremes.
Like it or not, as un-American as the concept may be, reality is that any survival compound is, by definition, a commune. Many earlier posts have clearly demonstrated that heading for the hills alone is suicide. You can pick your friends, do so wisely.
The water issue is a tough nut to crack. I have been looking at hand pumps that I can retro-fit my current eletric well pump. No luck so far. Has anyone else looked into this?
I'm also going to look into it when I build a house; I'll be on a lake so it wont be a huge problem if my pump fails. I believe there are solar kits you could look at as a backup. I have heard that ranchers are starting to use more solar pumps than windmills because the flow rate is higher.
I'm planning on getting a solar array as a backup way to have some electricity.
I find it really sad that any argument that involves race, politics, or economic demographics is being somehow omitted from this discussion by a few readers. Ok, what exactly are you predicting will be the downfall of society? Since those three subjects are the color of our three biggest threats right now. But again, you can wait for aliens to land, or zombies to crawl out of the grave, and let the real threat bite you in the ass.
Doc Maker, I see where you are coming from, but here is my take. You know the three b's, band aids, beans, and bullets? Those are my three first priority.
-Can you fight beside me?
-Can you fix me when I am hurt?
-Can you grow and prepare the food I scrounge up?
Outside of that, I have no intentions of wasting any of my supplies, shelter, and overall resources for the availability of meaningless goods. Do I want to waste a valuable meal a day for some barefoot hippie, because he can weave a basket or make a clay pot? No. I have packs, book bags, shit I have a fleet of seabags that can carry stuff and be cut to my needs. I'll deal with that now, so I don't have to be life support for non-essential personnel later.
Now, if that hippie knows how to survive off of tree bark, good cheer, and mouse shit, I'll give what he has to say a listen. I don't think many people possess that today, not in the modern hippie crowd. My one criteria is "will you help me survive today". Period.
Maybe if things calm down, and the non-political, mixed race, perfectly nuetral in economy masses are no longer tearing each other apart, those people will be part of rebuilding. But until that time becomes apparent, should the S ever HTF, you can keep your Earth Children, I'll take a few fighters instead...
"I find it really sad that any argument that involves race, politics, or economic demographics is being somehow omitted from this discussion by a few readers. "
The title of THIS thread is "Are you prepared for mass civil disturbance?" not " What are the economic and societal problems that will cause mass civil disturbance?" If you want a civics discourse, start a different thread. This is about preparation.
I never mentioned anything about wasting energy on "some barefoot hippie." I spoke of useful people who may not know how to use a firearm when the SHTF. But they can learn...
What new skill are you going to learn today?
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