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We have enough Spam for our two dogs and ourselves for at least two weeks.
You're ****ed. You need at least a year's worth of food, if not 2.
My concern is that once bullets begin to fly and bodies begin to pile up, the local police, sherif's office, national guard and more will be sent in to restore order. Question is, whose side will they be on?
The zombies = the have nots = the "99%" protesting economic injustice today. Our politicians and other global elitist will order our military to continue serving "their" will. Just another humanitarian operation to restore order.
It could be a dangerous time to wear a uniform of that is the case.
But police will be in short supply. I bet they are assigned to protect hospitals and key government buildings. There are not even enough of them to do that.
If people had to make themselves useful in order to not starve, they would behave differently.
And there in lies the problem...
They're doing it for fun now, when they start doing it to take from others on a mass scale so they don't starve it won't be different, it will be scaled up. Making themselves "useful" will mean killing and looting without end other than being taken out.
It could be a dangerous time to wear a uniform of that is the case.
But police will be in short supply. I bet they are assigned to protect hospitals and key government buildings. There are not even enough of them to do that.
I bet there'd be even LESS, as I'm sure the majority of them would choose to stay home and protect their own families.
Read "One Second After" for some thought-provoking scenarios.
Just a Jarhead
11-15-11, 06:47
This happened last Saturday night just a few miles from me. We talked about this a few months back that we expect to see more of this as economic situations deteriorate even further and really is a nightmare scenario.
Saturday night 10 p.m., 3 suspects wearing police uniforms bang on the door of a residence claiming to be looking for someone, invade home. One victim gets out a window calls police, they respond and kill one perp. They found a shotgun and 2 handguns at the scene. 2 perps remain at large.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45275039/ns/local_news-west_palm_beach_fl/t/dead-royal-palm-beach-home-invasion/
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region_c_palm_beach_county/royal_palm_beach/officer-shoots-suspect-in-home-invasion-in-royal-palm-beach
This happened last Saturday night just a few miles from me. We talked about this a few months back that we expect to see more of this as economic situations deteriorate even further and really is a nightmare scenario.
Saturday night 10 p.m., 3 suspects wearing police uniforms bang on the door of a residence claiming to be looking for someone, invade home. One victim gets out a window calls police, they respond and kill one perp. They found a shotgun and 2 handguns at the scene. 2 perps remain at large.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45275039/ns/local_news-west_palm_beach_fl/t/dead-royal-palm-beach-home-invasion/
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region_c_palm_beach_county/royal_palm_beach/officer-shoots-suspect-in-home-invasion-in-royal-palm-beach
Scary stuff...I've always wondered about this situation or a traffic stop situation where you aren't sure if they're actually police. What are you supposed to do? Call 911 to see if there has been police dispatched to your home or if an officer has radioed in about the traffic stop (if that's even SOP)?
Scary stuff...I've always wondered about this situation or a traffic stop situation where you aren't sure if they're actually police. What are you supposed to do? Call 911 to see if there has been police dispatched to your home or if an officer has radioed in about the traffic stop (if that's even SOP)?
Scary indeed. Makes me glad I know the faces of the Officers in my small town. All the more reason to maintain vigilance and take nothing at face value. Stay alert, stay alive.
Belmont31R
11-15-11, 08:34
Scary stuff...I've always wondered about this situation or a traffic stop situation where you aren't sure if they're actually police. What are you supposed to do? Call 911 to see if there has been police dispatched to your home or if an officer has radioed in about the traffic stop (if that's even SOP)?
If you are not sure they are police I would call 911 and ask them to verify its actually an officer. Depending on your state laws it should be legal to pull over in a safe spot which doesn't mean you have to pull over as soon as you are lit up. You can put on your hazards and slow down. Maybe some of the LEO's here can chime in on this, too.
If 911 cannot tell you who is pulling over let them know you're going to be driving to the nearest police station for your safety, and that you an unsure who is pulling you over. Know where police stations are in areas you frequent, and if you do not know pull into a public place with people around like a truck stop, Wal Mart, whatever.
Make sure your wife/gf/daughter know this too. Its been a tactic to abduct & rape lone females at night, and there have been many cases of this happening.
StrikerFired
11-15-11, 08:45
Scary stuff to actually have to confront head on. But good info and good ideas on here to keep track of.
My advice, as a 25 year LEO and currently the guy who runs our evening shift at work, would be as follows;
Surprise knock on the door in the middle of the night; call 911 if you are unsure of who is out there.
Unlike when I am doing a warrant or knocking on some shitbag's door, when I deal with regular folks (like say, your garage door is left open, or your car has been broken into/stolen and we need to talk to you about it) I'll position myself so that I can be seen as a uniformed LEO.
Bad guys who try to do home invasions typically try to dress up in some half assed SWAT type clothing. This is one reason why I think how many narc units do business is complete bullshit (long hair, ratty cargo shorts and an external cop type vest is not a good uniform for folks to think you are the real police).
Car stop in the boonies or whatever;
Slow WAY down, like 20mph, put on your flashers, call 911 and confirm that the stop is legit, then find a safe place to pull over.
After you confirm it is the real cops, then make sure you have your dome light on and hands in plain view when they walk up.
It also helps if you aren't speeding and such to get yourself pulled over in the first place.
Bad guys who try to do home invasions typically try to dress up in some half assed SWAT type clothing. This is one reason why I think how many narc units do business is complete bullshit (long hair, ratty cargo shorts and an external cop type vest is not a good uniform for folks to think you are the real police).
I've often thought of that over the years watching "Cops" and how often they show what appears to be "Joe Shitbag", AKA undercover cop, busting into a house or tackling a fleeing suspect and the person is supposed to somehow magically know that they're a police officer and respond to their commands.
Paraclete comes
11-15-11, 13:21
I would be very cautious of folks banging on my door or pulling my wife over late at night. There have been a few instances in southern ca in my old neighborhood like the previous. Guys dressed up as LEO knocking on doors and raping a few women, also guys dressed up as FEDEX or UPS around seven doing the same thing. Sad to know you have to be worried about that kinda stuff. I pray that this country turns around and moves back towards more restraint and common sense, back into a country of opportunity and not entitlement.
I pray that this country turns around and moves back towards more restraint and common sense, back into a country of opportunity and not entitlement.
Boy!!!!!! you're talking about MANY MANY moons ago!!!!!!
I pray that this country turns around and moves back towards more restraint and common sense, back into a country of opportunity and not entitlement.
I think we all agree that the road we're on is ugly. I think we all agree that the road back to the America you speak about can and will be even uglier.
Are people getting fed up or are they just crazy? Man shoots at White House. http://news.yahoo.com/secret-says-bullet-hit-white-house-060255176.html
Zombies attack a man on train. (VIDEO) http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11/16/l-train-attack-caught-on-video-cops-looking-for-suspects/
And I just thought this was interesting... Marines deploying to Australia. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15739995
Doc Safari
11-16-11, 11:10
Are people getting fed up or are they just crazy? Man shoots at White House. http://news.yahoo.com/secret-says-bullet-hit-white-house-060255176.html
Or is this just another piece on the chess board leading to martial law?
I already think the Occupy Everywhere bullcrap is being orchestrated.
This 'shooting' incident sure makes my instincts prick up that it's just the "next phase.";)
Grease Monkey
11-16-11, 13:02
[QUOTE=Irish;1144582]
Zombies attack a man on train. (VIDEO) http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11/16/l-train-attack-caught-on-video-cops-looking-for-suspects/
QUOTE]
That shit makes my blood boil. Reading the comments below are interesting as well, to say the least.
Moose-Knuckle
11-16-11, 14:47
Guys dressed up as LEO knocking on doors and raping a few women, also guys dressed up as FEDEX or UPS around seven doing the same thing.
It's amazing how unoticed a guy in a UPS uniform is in any sitting during business hours. Those guys can access pretty much anywhere.
Are people getting fed up or are they just crazy? Man shoots at White House. http://news.yahoo.com/secret-says-bullet-hit-white-house-060255176.html
Oh great, an "assault rifle" was recovered at the scene. :rolleyes:
Here we go. . .
Zombies attack a man on train. (VIDEO) http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11/16/l-train-attack-caught-on-video-cops-looking-for-suspects/
Another hate crime that will go without prosecution.
And I just thought this was interesting... Marines deploying to Australia. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15739995
More globalization. I sure wish Barry would deploy that Marine task force on our southern border and defend our nation from the war spilling over the border from Mexico.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish View Post
Are people getting fed up or are they just crazy? Man shoots at White House. http://news.yahoo.com/secret-says-bu...060255176.html
Oh great, an "assault rifle" was recovered at the scene.
Here we go. . .
I wonder if it will turn out to be a F&F rifle?! That would ice the cake. Maye that would get the WH to drop kick Holder.
^^
Dude, that would make my day, month, year... at least through Dec.
Just a Jarhead
11-17-11, 03:14
That would be Absolutely friggin PRICELESS!
More signs of the times...
Desperate dad robs store and apologizes saying he has to feed his kids. http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/15/desperate-dad-robs-gamestop-store-in-huntington-beach/
Mobius - The next financial crisis will be hell'ish! http://news.yahoo.com/next-financial-crisis-hellish-way-204303737.html
And what the **** do we need drones flying over the U.S. for? http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/16/drone-gives-texas-law-enforcement-birds-eye-view-on-crime/
More signs of the times...
Desperate dad robs store and apologizes saying he has to feed his kids. http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/15/desperate-dad-robs-gamestop-store-in-huntington-beach/
Mobius - The next financial crisis will be hell'ish! http://news.yahoo.com/next-financial-crisis-hellish-way-204303737.html
And what the **** do we need drones flying over the U.S. for? http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/16/drone-gives-texas-law-enforcement-birds-eye-view-on-crime/
This whole thread is a good reason to have them flying over US soil.
This whole thread is a good reason to have them flying over US soil.
I don't want to live in an Orwellian, 1984 always being watched society and country. For people who want that move to Britian.
I don't want to live in an Orwellian, 1984 always being watched society and country. For people who want that move to Britian.
What makes you think they are watching you? There's a million and one uses for those things.
Everyone wants security an stability but bitch when a tool like that is deployed. I dont think its possible for us (as a society) to have the cake and eat it too. Big brother will listen, they will watch wether one likes it or not. And for those REALLY worried about it, worried about being on THEIR radar, places like these forums are some o the worst places to be.
I hear what your saying, nobody likes the fact that someone is looking over our shoulder, but unfortunatelly thats the way the world is turning. If theae tools help prevent anothe 9/11, a small nuke from being detonated in a city, our water systems contaminated or our power sources in a massive scale being disrupted then it is what it is.
If any of these were to happen them we would have the masses complaining that the gov. Dind do its part and got caught with their pants around their ankles, again.
If i have to pick any of those situations, i'll pick the drone, or the poor sap listening to my mundane conversations, possible someone even reading this post. Either way its happening one way or the other. The best part is we dont have to live with it, we can all pack our shit and go were we think the grass is greener, and then bitch about something else.
PS sorry typing on phone.
I do understand what you're saying but I don't rely on the .Gov or anybody else to provide for my family's safety and security. I accept personal responsibility for their defense and take my job very seriously.
A couple of negatives concerning drones are the fact that they're very expensive. If they're used widely we will see them come crashing down on someone's head and then there will be everyone screaming about not using them anymore. People will shoot them out of the air for sport. :)
Belmont31R
11-17-11, 11:58
What makes you think they are watching you? There's a million and one uses for those things.
Everyone wants security an stability but bitch when a tool like that is deployed. I dont think its possible for us (as a society) to have the cake and eat it too. Big brother will listen, they will watch wether one likes it or not. And for those REALLY worried about it, worried about being on THEIR radar, places like these forums are some o the worst places to be.
I hear what your saying, nobody likes the fact that someone is looking over our shoulder, but unfortunatelly thats the way the world is turning. If theae tools help prevent anothe 9/11, a small nuke from being detonated in a city, our water systems contaminated or our power sources in a massive scale being disrupted then it is what it is.
If any of these were to happen them we would have the masses complaining that the gov. Dind do its part and got caught with their pants around their ankles, again.
If i have to pick any of those situations, i'll pick the drone, or the poor sap listening to my mundane conversations, possible someone even reading this post. Either way its happening one way or the other. The best part is we dont have to live with it, we can all pack our shit and go were we think the grass is greener, and then bitch about something else.
PS sorry typing on phone.
Or we can stay here and not put up with it. Vote for people who aren't going to turn this country more into a police state than it already is.
9/11 was great for the government. Gives them an excuse to grow significantly in size and power while the citizens get a little more weight put on that boot over their neck while bleating about security and how good it feels.
I would gladly trade the small risk of being killed in a terrorist attack to having the gov snout up my ass all the time.
Looks like the OWS violence is heating up.
NYPD is hauling off people left and right.
Check out this link.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/protesters-and-officers-clash-near-wall-street/
Looks like the OWS violence is heating up.
NYPD is hauling off people left and right.
Check out this link.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/protesters-and-officers-clash-near-wall-street/
barack obama owns this. I bet he's proud. This is his dream come true.
QuietShootr
11-17-11, 15:43
This whole thread is a good reason to have them flying over US soil.
**** that shit.
QuietShootr
11-17-11, 15:45
Or we can stay here and not put up with it. Vote for people who aren't going to turn this country more into a police state than it already is.
9/11 was great for the government. Gives them an excuse to grow significantly in size and power while the citizens get a little more weight put on that boot over their neck while bleating about security and how good it feels.
I would gladly trade the small risk of being killed in a terrorist attack to having the gov snout up my ass all the time.
This.
Moose-Knuckle
11-17-11, 16:46
9/11 was great for the government. Gives them an excuse to grow significantly in size and power while the citizens get a little more weight put on that boot over their neck while bleating about security and how good it feels.
"America’s military must rule out even the possibility of a serious global or regional challenger anywhere in the world. The regime of Saddam Hussein must be toppled immediately, by U.S. force if necessary. And the entire Middle East must be reordered according to an American plan. PNAC’s most important study notes that selling this plan to the American people will likely take a long time, "absent some catastrophic catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."
PNAC (Program for the New American Century)
Rebuilding America's Defenses (1997), p.51
I would gladly trade the small risk of being killed in a terrorist attack to having the gov snout up my ass all the time.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
I'mma gonna use my judge pistol to shoot down dem der robot planes.
-----
Come on, have the drones patrol the border or something, not flying over American citizens homes and businesses. Big brother is big enough already.
This whole thread is a good reason to have them flying over US soil.
Yeah, and criminals have guns, so we ought to disarm their targets, it'll save lives.
The root of many of our problems currently is our own government. This isn't Iraq, they don't need ****ing Predator drones overhead to take out pot dealers in Suburbia, USA.
I trust the higher-ups in our .Gov as far as I can throw them, and there are some fat mf'ers in that pool. I don't want them to have half the powers they have, this country is Orwellian enough, they don't get any damn drones. That ship's gonna sink fast.
Yeah, and criminals have guns, so we ought to disarm their targets, it'll save lives.
The root of many of our problems currently is our own government. This isn't Iraq, they don't need ****ing Predator drones overhead to take out pot dealers in Suburbia, USA.
I trust the higher-ups in our .Gov as far as I can throw them, and there are some fat mf'ers in that pool. I don't want them to have half the powers they have, this country is Orwellian enough, they don't get any damn drones. That ship's gonna sink fast.
Jesus, how ignorant are some of you guys?!?!?!?!? Pot dealers??? Suburbia???? Could you possibly miss the bigger picture any more????? So much for not forgetting how this whole war on terror began and how a few assholes brought DOWN 2 major sky scrappers.
I mean do I really need to explain that its not about a guy selling dime bags in the corner?? With that kind of simplistic mentality its no wonder the gov. is doing their thing.
Here's a perfect example of what's wrong with our society. We have a major attack on our country and 10 years later, people talk about dime dealers in suburbia. Do you work for Homeland Security at the airport???
Someone mentioned that its up to us to change things with the gov. Really, yet look who's in office!!! Someone put him there.
The gov. is not the only one at fault. The gov. is elected by its people, and at least one of its constituents just expressed a level of ignorance that is staggering considering our current situation. Some of you make it sound like we have no control over who gets elected.
IMO the only way this country will change it's mindset is when things get as bad as Israel.
Here's a little story comparing their mindset and ours.
I attended a terror briefing held by the FBI and the Israeli equivalent.
The FBI got up and gave his brief, nothing special, samo samo.
But then the Isreali agent got up and talked about their current situation, multiple bobmers on a daily basis, he showed numbers, locations etc...
Then he got into the police training and mindset. He said that our first responders needed to change their training and start building the proficiency level needed to deal with bombers, terrorists, suicide atteackers on their own, not wait 1 hours for SWAT to show up. He even when into detail about teaching patrol guys how to do head shots so they could respond to possible suicide bombers.
When he said that, a lot of the guys (LEOs) just about shit themselves. Again, mindset, they have the right one we don't, but then again they deal with terror every day.
If that happend here (daily terror) this country will collapse, and it will not recover until we change our mindset and start acting accordingly.
I can do my part in protecting my family and god knows I'll do that until my last breath, but I'm also a realist. I can't protect my family from some dirty rag head carrying a dirty bomb across Mexico or Canada, or infecting the water supply, for that I look at the people I pay my taxes to. I fight the fights I can control, affect change, or possibly win. If I'm not happy with how my gov. is protecting me or doing it's job, well then that's a different fight and again not one people can do alone. How long have people been bitching about this gov. and when was the last time a real effort was put forth by the people to affect some change??
R.
how a few assholes brought DOWN 2 major sky scrappers
I'm just thinking this wouldn't have happened in the first place if the majority would have been allowed to carry handguns onto the plane.
I'm just thinking this wouldn't have happened in the first place if the majority would have been allowed to carry handguns onto the plane.
Lol!!!!!!! Thats funnyy!!!! So true though
Nathan_Bell
11-18-11, 09:51
barack obama owns this. I bet he's proud. This is his dream come true.
It truly is, recall that he is a Communist Agitator, oh sorry community organizer, by trade.
This thread's done pretty good on it's own. Let's not drag the OWS protest stuff into this one. I think there's 4 other threads on M4C regarding the wingnut hippy communists if you want to post OWS stuff in those. Thanks!
I rarely post all the shit these coppier thieves are stealing but it's getting way out of hand all over the country. From huge bells to A/C units to plumbing and wiring. As times get tougher these types of crimes are only going to get worse. In Sacramento wire thieves shut down a thousand street lights. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/11/16/north-highlands-residents-angered-by-broken-street-lights/
Detroit could run out of $ by December. http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2011/11/gary_brown_detroit_could_run_o.html
Nathan_Bell
11-18-11, 12:02
Detroit has the potential to get bad. The core of that city is nearly a no-mans land already.
This thread's done pretty good on it's own. Let's not drag the OWS protest stuff into this one. I think there's 4 other threads on M4C regarding the wingnut hippy communists if you want to post OWS stuff in those. Thanks!
I rarely post all the shit these coppier thieves are stealing but it's getting way out of hand all over the country. From huge bells to A/C units to plumbing and wiring. As times get tougher these types of crimes are only going to get worse. In Sacramento wire thieves shut down a thousand street lights. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/11/16/north-highlands-residents-angered-by-broken-street-lights/
Detroit could run out of $ by December. http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2011/11/gary_brown_detroit_could_run_o.html
Detroit has the potential to get bad. The core of that city is nearly a no-mans land already.
I haven't been there in about 6 or 7 years and it was horrible then. Google "Detroit feral houses" to see some crazy shit.
Detroit has the potential to get bad. The core of that city is nearly a no-mans land already.
Be thankful MI has so many winter heating subsidies...otherwise all those fkn savages will migrate.
I would be in favor of cutting off all heat subsidies. I mean, we already pay to keep them drunk, high, and fat.
Nathan_Bell
11-18-11, 12:37
I haven't been there in about 6 or 7 years and it was horrible then. Google "Detroit feral houses" to see some crazy shit.
Friend of mine was driving hot shot car deliveries. A bunch went into Detroit. He is a pretty crazy dude and even he was always glad to gtfo of there.
I'mma gonna use my judge pistol to shoot down dem der robot planes.:sarcastic:
Moose-Knuckle
11-18-11, 16:04
Jesus, how ignorant are some of you guys?!?!?!?!? Pot dealers??? Suburbia???? Could you possibly miss the bigger picture any more????? So much for not forgetting how this whole war on terror began and how a few assholes brought DOWN 2 major sky scrappers.
I mean do I really need to explain that its not about a guy selling dime bags in the corner?? With that kind of simplistic mentality its no wonder the gov. is doing their thing.
Here's a perfect example of what's wrong with our society. We have a major attack on our country and 10 years later, people talk about dime dealers in suburbia. Do you work for Homeland Security at the airport???
Someone mentioned that its up to us to change things with the gov. Really, yet look who's in office!!! Someone put him there.
The gov. is not the only one at fault. The gov. is elected by its people, and at least one of its constituents just expressed a level of ignorance that is staggering considering our current situation. Some of you make it sound like we have no control over who gets elected.
IMO the only way this country will change it's mindset is when things get as bad as Israel.
Here's a little story comparing their mindset and ours.
I attended a terror briefing held by the FBI and the Israeli equivalent.
The FBI got up and gave his brief, nothing special, samo samo.
But then the Isreali agent got up and talked about their current situation, multiple bobmers on a daily basis, he showed numbers, locations etc...
Then he got into the police training and mindset. He said that our first responders needed to change their training and start building the proficiency level needed to deal with bombers, terrorists, suicide atteackers on their own, not wait 1 hours for SWAT to show up. He even when into detail about teaching patrol guys how to do head shots so they could respond to possible suicide bombers.
When he said that, a lot of the guys (LEOs) just about shit themselves. Again, mindset, they have the right one we don't, but then again they deal with terror every day.
If that happend here (daily terror) this country will collapse, and it will not recover until we change our mindset and start acting accordingly.
I can do my part in protecting my family and god knows I'll do that until my last breath, but I'm also a realist. I can't protect my family from some dirty rag head carrying a dirty bomb across Mexico or Canada, or infecting the water supply, for that I look at the people I pay my taxes to. I fight the fights I can control, affect change, or possibly win. If I'm not happy with how my gov. is protecting me or doing it's job, well then that's a different fight and again not one people can do alone. How long have people been bitching about this gov. and when was the last time a real effort was put forth by the people to affect some change??
R.
The DOD bought with tax payer money and incinerated the first printing of former DIA officer Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer's book Operation Dark Heart (the Nazi's burned books to control information). DOD cited the book "violated OPSEC of operations abroad" when in fact Lt. Col. Shaffer detailed how the DIA was tracking Mohamed Atta's cell in CONUS up until he boarded American Airlines Flight 11.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/09/AR2010090907747.html
The DOD bought with tax payer money and incinerated the first printing of former DIA officer Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer's book Operation Dark Heart (the Nazi's burned books to control information). DOD cited the book "violated OPSEC of operations abroad" when in fact Lt. Col. Shaffer detailed how the DIA was tracking Mohamed Atta's cell in CONUS up until he boarded American Airlines Flight 11.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/09/AR2010090907747.html
Very interesting, thank you for bringing that to everyone's attention.
EDIT: Interesting article on said subject. http://www.operationdarkheart.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Private-War-Anthony-Shaffer-cut.pdf
Foreign hackers cyber-attack US water plant.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.bb560ae65a071dc80a1c88fdc371ec35.d51&show_article=1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/foreign-hackers-broke-into-illinois-water-plant-control-system-industry-expert-says/2011/11/18/gIQAgmTZYN_blog.html
Save your tinfoil hat comments and choose to believe what you want. Me and my family are prepared for the worst.
Being from MI myself, I think lobbying for removing utility assistance and using the money towards giant "Move South!" billboards might really help clean up this state :D
QuietShootr
11-21-11, 13:34
The DOD bought with tax payer money and incinerated the first printing of former DIA officer Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer's book Operation Dark Heart (the Nazi's burned books to control information). DOD cited the book "violated OPSEC of operations abroad" when in fact Lt. Col. Shaffer detailed how the DIA was tracking Mohamed Atta's cell in CONUS up until he boarded American Airlines Flight 11.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/09/AR2010090907747.html
I'm reposting this from another thread, since it seems more pertinent here.
I've also noticed that there is a tendency for a certain type of gun forum member (often a lower-ranking military or police member) to pooh-pooh the very idea that not everything is always as simple as it appears to be.
The levels of consciousness appear to be something like this:
1) Take at face value everything you're told. This is where most people live. It's easy and low-stress, except when something so blatant causes you to experience temporary cognitive dissonance. The human psyche is remarkably resistant to considering things it doesn't want to think about, however....so you'll probably recover back to your original state.
2) Start questioning a few things. Stay away from the things that really challenge your thinking (example: sometimes that authority figure has its OWN best interest in mind above everything else.)
3) In your own life, bump your head on a paradox hard enough to make you think about it (i.e. become a close witness to how the legal system can locate, fix, and destroy a target for no other reason than the target was dumb enough/unlucky enough to draw attention to itself. This can be shocking as hell to the aforementioned poster type when their metaphorical ship of Ultimate Justice and Fairness crashes into the hidden Reef of Reality.)
At this point, you'll be feeling as if your entire worldview is shaken. Typically, you'll deal with it one of two ways - either decide what you saw is an absolute anomaly, calm down and go back to your happy world, or you take the red pill and start really trying to see things as they are. This is stressful as hell at first - if not carefully managed, severe depression can be the result. Too unpleasant to contemplate for most, and they sort it by reverting to 1) or 2).
4) Start thinking there is more than you can see to EVERYTHING. Again, needs to be carefully managed - this is where a lot of loons go off the rails and never come back. Sometimes this is hard to differentiate from actual mental illness. (Now, THAT'S an interesting idea, IMO. Not in the 'crazy and fingerpainting with your own shit' kind of way, but more in a 'I wonder if some dissociative illnesses are actually extreme moments of clarity' kind of way.)
5) Acceptance - the realization that not everything has multiple layers, but a lot of things do. Use Occam's Razor - if you can't figure out why someone would do something, ask yourself Cui bono? At the same time, don't let the shit bother you. Observe it and use the information appropriately, but don't let it grind you down. It's the same as it ever was.
What's the point? The point is that a 1) thinks a 5) is a paranoid conspiracy nut, and a 5) thinks a 1) is an unthinking, unquestioning follower. They are going to kick sparks off each other in any forum. IMO we have more 5)s here than 1)s, and naturally they don't like each other much.
Doc Safari
11-21-11, 14:18
"Paranoia is just a heightened sense of awareness." Isn't that how the quote goes?
Moose-Knuckle
11-21-11, 15:54
The very word conspiracy is a dirty word these days. So much so POTUS, his cronies, and others in DC are trying to criminalize any such notion of questioning one's government. This applies to both parties.
Here is just one of several laws created to combat free thinking. . .
H.R. 1955 [110th]: Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1955
The more one reads the more they are able to reveal what truth is as they will discover the inconsistencies and contradictions for themselves.
The wizards behind the curtain would love to do ALL our thinking for us.
QuietShootr
11-21-11, 15:56
The very word conspiracy is a dirty word these days. So much so POTUS, his cronies, and others in DC are trying to criminalize any such notion of questioning one's government. This applies to both parties.
Here is just one of several laws created to combat free thinking. . .
H.R. 1955 [110th]: Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1955
The more one reads the more they are able to reveal what truth is as they will discover the inconsistencies and contradictions for themselves.
The wizards behind the curtain would love to do ALL our thinking for us.
Hell...some of their "useful idiot" drones are HERE.
"Take off the tinfoil!" :rolleyes:
Moose-Knuckle
11-21-11, 16:03
Hell...some of their "useful idiot" drones are HERE.
"Take off the tinfoil!" :rolleyes:
So Shootr, are you a #1?
QuietShootr
11-21-11, 16:07
So Shootr, are you a #1?
Really?
Moose-Knuckle
11-21-11, 16:14
Really?
I'm not tracking with you here. :confused:
No, I do not believe you to be a #1 as I have read your posts on here. Just trying to clarify your last post with the tinfoil comment. I do not know if that was directed towards me or since you put it in quotes you were rolling eyes at those who throw out the tinfoil flag every time they read something they don't agree and or like.
Not trying to be at odds.
QuietShootr
11-21-11, 17:04
I'm not tracking with you here. :confused:
No, I do not believe you to be a #1 as I have read your posts on here. Just trying to clarify your last post with the tinfoil comment. I do not know if that was directed towards me or since you put it in quotes you were rolling eyes at those who throw out the tinfoil flag every time they read something they don't agree and or like.
The latter.
VooDoo6Actual
11-21-11, 19:09
Me thinks many "Conspiracy Theory" fingerpointers are going to get a dose of reality in the not too distant future & experience a extreme paradigm shift....
TacMedic556
11-21-11, 19:28
It's on, it's on like donkey kong. Debt committee failed, US is running a 15 Trillion dollar Debt with over 65 Trillion in outstanding liabilities tied to Medicare/Medicaid and Soc. Sec. Trillions have been sucked out of the financial system. Wealth transfers at the highest levels have taken place. I guess, we'll all see who ends up being right in the end. The fecal will hit the ventilation device sooner or later.
When people lose everything and have nothing left to lose, they lose it.
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse
If you like some good economics: http://professorfekete.com/articles.asp
March 28, 2007 “The problems in the subprime market seems likely to be contained.”
— Ben Bernanke, Federal Reserve chairman, March 28, 2007
This unfortunate collection of words by Bernanke has been quoted over and over again as proof the Fed chief did not grasp the gravity of the subprime debacle.
He made this comment as part of testimony he gave to the Joint Economic Committee of Congress, and it came back to haunt him when the financial sector began to collapse.
QuietShootr
11-21-11, 19:47
Me thinks many "Conspiracy Theory" fingerpointers are going to get a dose of reality in the not too distant future & experience a extreme paradigm shift....
I doubt it. I have read that there were Jews who didn't believe they were about to be killed even after they were stripped, shorn, and herded to the mouth of an oven with the ashes of their co-religionists drifting down on their heads.
I'm not buying the total collapse of human society and destruction to the dollar theories. Plus, we are 12 months from another election cycle. More establishment politicians will be booted and "tea partiers" will take their place. It's not too late to change course. If you think differently, you should back your shit now and get the fuk out. :eek:
VooDoo6Actual
11-21-11, 19:58
I doubt it. I have read that there were Jews who didn't believe they were about to be killed even after they were stripped, shorn, and herded to the mouth of an oven with the ashes of their co-religionists drifting down on their heads.
Yes, sad Indeed.
I'll redact my comment then to read : for those intellectually honest enough then....which admittedly won't be very many either....
QuietShootr
11-21-11, 19:59
I'm not buying the total collapse of human society and destruction to the dollar theories. Plus, we are 12 months from another election cycle. More establishment politicians will be booted and "tea partiers" will take their place. It's not too late to change course. If you think differently, you should back your shit now and get the fuk out. :eek:
YOU give peace a chance....I'll be over here covering you in case it doesn't work out.
YOU give peace a chance....I'll be over here covering you in case it doesn't work out.
Glad to know you've got my back. :D
I'm reposting this from another thread, since it seems more pertinent here.
I've also noticed that there is a tendency for a certain type of gun forum member (often a lower-ranking military or police member) to pooh-pooh the very idea that not everything is always as simple as it appears to be.
The levels of consciousness appear to be something like this:
1) Take at face value everything you're told. This is where most people live. It's easy and low-stress, except when something so blatant causes you to experience temporary cognitive dissonance. The human psyche is remarkably resistant to considering things it doUesn't want to think about, however....so you'll probably recover back to your original state.
2) Start questioning a few things. Stay away from the things that really challenge your thinking (example: sometimes that authority figure has its OWN best interest in mind above everything else.)
3) In your own life, bump your head on a paradox hard enough to make you think about it (i.e. become a close witness to how the legal system can locate, fix, and destroy a target for no other reason than the target was dumb enough/unlucky enough to draw attention to itself. This can be shocking as hell to the aforementioned poster type when their metaphorical ship of Ultimate Justice and Fairness crashes into the hidden Reef of Reality.)
At this point, you'll be feeling as if your entire worldview is shaken. Typically, you'll deal with it one of two ways - either decide what you saw is an absolute anomaly, calm down and go back to your happy world, or you take the red pill and start really trying to see things as they are. This is stressful as hell at first - if not carefully managed, severe depression can be the result. Too unpleasant to contemplate for most, and they sort it by reverting to 1) or 2).
4) Start thinking there is more than you can see to EVERYTHING. Again, needs to be carefully managed - this is where a lot of loons go off the rails and never come back. Sometimes this is hard to differentiate from actual mental illness. (Now, THAT'S an interesting idea, IMO. Not in the 'crazy and fingerpainting with your own shit' kind of way, but more in a 'I wonder if some dissociative illnesses are actually extreme moments of clarity' kind of way.)
5) Acceptance - the realization that not everything has multiple layers, but a lot of things do. Use Occam's Razor - if you can't figure out why someone would do something, ask yourself Cui bono? At the same time, don't let the shit bother you. Observe it and use the information appropriately, but don't let it grind you down. It's the same as it ever was.
What's the point? The point is that a 1) thinks a 5) is a paranoid conspiracy nut, and a 5) thinks a 1) is an unthinking, unquestioning follower. They are going to kick sparks off each other in any forum. IMO we have more 5)s here than 1)s, and naturally they don't like each other much.
That whole post is a "moment of clarity".
Thanks for sharing Quietshootr!
Glad to know you've got my back. :D
You're the sacrificial lamb....aka fodder.
The levels of consciousness appear to be something like this:
1) Take at face value everything you're told. This is where most people live. It's easy and low-stress, except when something so blatant causes you to experience temporary cognitive dissonance. The human psyche is remarkably resistant to considering things it doesn't want to think about, however....so you'll probably recover back to your original state.
2) Start questioning a few things. Stay away from the things that really challenge your thinking (example: sometimes that authority figure has its OWN best interest in mind above everything else.)
3) In your own life, bump your head on a paradox hard enough to make you think about it (i.e. become a close witness to how the legal system can locate, fix, and destroy a target for no other reason than the target was dumb enough/unlucky enough to draw attention to itself. This can be shocking as hell to the aforementioned poster type when their metaphorical ship of Ultimate Justice and Fairness crashes into the hidden Reef of Reality.)
At this point, you'll be feeling as if your entire worldview is shaken. Typically, you'll deal with it one of two ways - either decide what you saw is an absolute anomaly, calm down and go back to your happy world, or you take the red pill and start really trying to see things as they are. This is stressful as hell at first - if not carefully managed, severe depression can be the result. Too unpleasant to contemplate for most, and they sort it by reverting to 1) or 2).
4) Start thinking there is more than you can see to EVERYTHING. Again, needs to be carefully managed - this is where a lot of loons go off the rails and never come back. Sometimes this is hard to differentiate from actual mental illness. (Now, THAT'S an interesting idea, IMO. Not in the 'crazy and fingerpainting with your own shit' kind of way, but more in a 'I wonder if some dissociative illnesses are actually extreme moments of clarity' kind of way.)
5) Acceptance - the realization that not everything has multiple layers, but a lot of things do. Use Occam's Razor - if you can't figure out why someone would do something, ask yourself Cui bono? At the same time, don't let the shit bother you. Observe it and use the information appropriately, but don't let it grind you down. It's the same as it ever was.
What's the point? The point is that a 1) thinks a 5) is a paranoid conspiracy nut, and a 5) thinks a 1) is an unthinking, unquestioning follower. They are going to kick sparks off each other in any forum. IMO we have more 5)s here than 1)s, and naturally they don't like each other much.
Thanks for posting this. Taking the red pill was definitely a hard thing to do.
VooDoo6Actual
11-22-11, 00:10
You're the sacrificial lamb....aka fodder.
frickin hilarious
You're the sacrificial lamb....aka fodder.
you don't have to run faster than the bear...
Moose-Knuckle
11-22-11, 02:48
The latter.
Solid copy.
You're the sacrificial lamb....aka fodder.
i'm the wolf in sheep's clothing. but you think what you want and I'll gladly spit on your grave.
i'm the wolf in sheep's clothing. but you think what you want and I'll gladly spit on your grave.
That wasn't meant as an insult. I was just kidding. QS said he'd cover your back as you went to "make peace". All I meant was that you'd be down there by yourself and therefore, a sacrificial lamb.
Nice to know you'd water the flowers on my grave with your spit though. :D
We cool? :cool:
Mob of 50 zombies rob 7-11, follow link for video. http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Flash-Mob-Knocks-Over-Silver-Spring-7-Eleven-134286103.html
Mob of 50 zombies rob 7-11, follow link for video. http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Flash-Mob-Knocks-Over-Silver-Spring-7-Eleven-134286103.html
racist
Moose-Knuckle
11-22-11, 16:06
racist
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/not_this_shit_again-1.jpg
Exactly what I was thinking...I really hope that was tongue in cheek
racist
You obviously don't know me. One more time for clarification... I don't give a flying **** if the perpetrators are black, white, brown or any other frickin' color of the rainbow they're pieces of shit who need to be flushed! This thread is replete with examples of human garbage committing crimes against your standard, normal every day American and for lack of a better term we've adopted the word "zombie" to categorize the type of person they are.
These zombies will be attacking in hordes, just like the movies, when a period of lawlessness occurs and have proven to do so in the past on many occasions. Again, this thread has no racial overtones in it or any other silly shit so let's try to keep it that way.
Looks like this guy could have used a fire extinguisher full of OC spray against these pricks.
You obviously don't know me. One more time for clarification... I don't give a flying **** if the perpetrators are black, white, brown or any other frickin' color of the rainbow they're pieces of shit who need to be flushed! This thread is replete with examples of human garbage committing crimes against your standard, normal every day American and for lack of a better term we've adopted the word "zombie" to categorize the type of person they are.
These zombies will be attacking in hordes, just like the movies, when a period of lawlessness occurs and have proven to do so in the past on many occasions. Again, this thread has no racial overtones in it or any other silly shit so let's try to keep it that way.
Calm down. The comment was tongue-in-cheek and demonstrated how our culture has become so politically correct that it is impossible to point out certain cultural issues without being branded a racist. There is a real problem within certain communities in this country that is being perpetuated by politicians to keep a dependent lower class that will continue to vote them into office.
There will be definite racial overtones when societal collapse occurs.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_io8I84mKkTs/S_WActbNDCI/AAAAAAAAAjU/PIqg-u9VFJc/s1600/sarcasm_sign.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
11-22-11, 20:01
The comment was tongue-in-cheek.
Good to know, next time to prevent any confussion you might want to add an emoticon such as the sarcastic smiley.
Good to know, next time to prevent any confussion you might want to add an emoticon such as the sarcastic smiley.
I know! Man, just because I forgot to add a Jester (:jester:) smiley, I've got Amac wanting to spit on my grave! :p
That wasn't meant as an insult. I was just kidding. QS said he'd cover your back as you went to "make peace". All I meant was that you'd be down there by yourself and therefore, a sacrificial lamb.
Nice to know you'd water the flowers on my grave with your spit though. :D
We cool? :cool:
yeah man. all good. can't always tell what people mean with only words. communication is 90% physical. as others mentioned, smileys help lots. ;)
At least he was just planning on spitting.
At least he was just planning on spitting.
Yep, swap the "p" with a "h" and now you've got a real mess.
TacMedic556
11-23-11, 14:09
The following are 17 quotes about the coming global financial collapse that will make your hair stand up:
#1 Credit Suisse's Fixed Income Research unit: "We seem to have entered the last days of the euro as we currently know it. That doesn’t make a break-up very likely, but it does mean some extraordinary things will almost certainly need to happen – probably by mid-January – to prevent the progressive closure of all the euro zone sovereign bond markets, potentially accompanied by escalating runs on even the strongest banks."
#2 Willem Buiter, chief economist at Citigroup: "Time is running out fast. I think we have maybe a few months -- it could be weeks, it could be days -- before there is a material risk of a fundamentally unnecessary default by a country like Spain or Italy which would be a financial catastrophe dragging the European banking system and North America with it."
#3 Jim Reid of Deutsche Bank: "If you don't think Merkel's tone will change then our investment advice is to dig a hole in the ground and hide."
#4 David Rosenberg, a senior economist at Gluskin Sheff in Toronto: "Lenders are finding it difficult to finance their day-to-day operations with short-term funding. This is a lot like 2008 but with more twists."
#5 Christian Stracke, the head of credit research for Pimco: "This is just a repeat of what we saw in 2008, when everyone wanted to see toxic assets off the banks’ balance sheets"
#6 Paul Krugman of the New York Times: "At this point I’d guess soaring rates on Italian debt leading to a gigantic bank run, both because of solvency fears about Italian banks given a default and because of fear that Italy will end up leaving the euro. This then leads to emergency bank closing, and once that happens, a decision to drop the euro and install the new lira. Next stop, France."
#7 Paul Hickey of Bespoke Investment Group: "More and more, we are hearing anecdotal comments from individual and professionals that this is the most difficult environment they have ever experienced as the market is like a fish flopping around after being taken out of the water."
#8 Bob Janjuah of Nomura International: "Germany appears to be adamant that full political and fiscal integration over the next decade (nothing substantive will happen over the short term, in my view) is the only option, and ECB monetisation is no longer possible. I really think it is that clear and simple. And if I am wrong, and the ECB does a U-turn and agrees to unlimited monetisation, I will simply wait for the inevitable knee-jerk rally to fade before reloading my short risk positions. Even if Germany and the ECB somehow agree to unlimited monetisation I believe it will do nothing to fix the insolvency and lack of growth in the eurozone. It will just result in a major destruction of the ECB‟s balance sheet which will force an ECB recap. At that point, I think Germany and its northern partners would walk away. Markets always want short, sharp, simple solutions."
#9 Dan Akerson, CEO of General Motors: "The ’08 recession, which was a credit bubble that manifested itself through primarily the real estate market, that was a serious stress....This is much more serious."
#10 Francesco Garzarelli of Goldman Sachs: "Pressures on Euro area sovereign bond markets have progressively intensified and spread like a wildfire."
#11 Jim Rogers: "In 2002 it was bad, in 2008 it was worse and 2012 or 2013 is going to be worse still – be careful"
#12 Dr. Pippa Malmgren, the President and founder of Principalis Asset Management who once worked in the White House as an adviser to President Bush: "Market forces are increasingly determining what the options are and foreclosing on options policymakers thought they had. One option which is now under discussion involves permitting a country to temporarily leave the Euro, return to its native currency, devalue, commit to returning to the Euro at a better debt to GDP ratio, a better exchange rate and a better growth trajectory and yet not sacrifice its EU membership. I would like to say for the record that this is precisely the thought process that I expected to evolve,but when I proposed this possibility back in 2009, and again in September 2010, I had a 100% response from clients and others that this was “impossible” and many felt it was “ridiculous”. They may be right but this is the current state of the discussion. The Handelsblatt in Germany has reported this conversation, but wrongly assumes that the country that will exit is Germany. I think that Germany will have to exit if the Southern European states do not. Germany’s preference is to stay in the Euro and have the others drop out. The problem has been the Germans could not convince the others to walk away. But, now, market pressures are forcing someone to leave. Germany is pushing for that someone to be Italy. They hope that this would be a one off exception, not to be repeated by any other country. Obviously, though, if Italy leaves the Euro and reverts to Lira then the markets will immediately and forcefully attack Spain, Portugal and even whatever is left of the already savaged Greeks. These countries will not be able to compete against a devalued Greece or Italy when it come to tourism or even infrastructure. But, the principal target will be France. The three largest French banks have roughly 450 billion Euros of exposure to Italian debt. So, further sovereign defaults are certainly inevitable, but that is true under any scenario. Growth and austerity will not do the trick, as ZeroHedge rightly points out. Ultimately, I will not be at all surprised to see Europe’s banking system shut for days while the losses and payments issues are worked out. People forget that the term “bank holiday” was invented in the 1930’s when the banks were shut for exactly the same reason."
#13 Daniel Clifton, a policy strategist with Strategas Research Partners on the potential for more downgrades of U.S. debt: "We would expect further downgrades, a first downgrade from Moody’s and Fitch and possibly a second downgrade from S&P."
#14 Warren Buffett on the problems in the eurozone: "The system as presently designed has revealed a major flaw. And that flaw won’t be corrected just by words. Europe will either have to come closer together or there will have to be some other rearrangement because this system is not working"
#15 David Kostin, equity strategist for Goldman Sachs: "The wide range of possible outcomes on both the super committee process and the unstable political economy in Europe drives our view that investors should assume the worst while hoping for the best."
#16 Mark Mobius, the head of the emerging markets desk at Templeton Asset Management: "There is definitely going to be another financial crisis around the corner"
#17 Gerald Celente, founder of The Trends Research Institute: "The whole system is going down. Pull your money out your Fidelity account, your Scwhab accout, and your ETFs."
:big_boss:
The following are 17 quotes about the coming global financial collapse that will make your hair stand up...
Are those quotes from an article that you have a link to or just your own independent research? Reason I'm asking is the information provided would be great for an email I wanted to send to a few people but I would like to have a source, or sources, rather than having to Google and track down each one. Thanks for posting, great info.
TacMedic556
11-23-11, 16:29
Just google: The following are 17 quotes about the coming global financial collapse that will make your hair stand up:
About 100+ sites featured the story.
http://lewrockwell.com/rep2/coming-collapse-make-hair-stand-up.html
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/News.php/2011/11/23/17-quotes-about-the-coming-global-financ
http://hawaiinewsdaily.com/2011/11/17-quotes-about-the-coming-global-financial-collapse-that-will-make-your-hair-stand-up/
http://theintelhub.com/2011/11/23/17-quotes-about-the-coming-global-financial-collapse-that-will-make-your-hair-stand-up/
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/17-quotes-about-the-coming-global-financial-collapse-that-will-make-your-hair-stand-up
Moose-Knuckle
11-23-11, 17:52
The following are 17 quotes about the coming global financial collapse that will make your hair stand up:
I'll see your 17. . .
(we didn't arrive at this juncture by mere coincidence)
#1 “The few who could understand the system will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favors, that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of the people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests”.
– John Sherman
#2 “I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country; corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the Money Power of the Country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war”.
– Abraham Lincoln
#3 “Capital must protect itself in every way... Debts must be collected and loans and mortgages foreclosed as soon as possible. When through a process of law the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and more easily governed by the strong arm of the law applied by the central power of leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principle men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd”.
– J. P. Morgan
#4 “For the first time in its history, Western Civilization is in danger of being destroyed internally by a corrupt, criminal ruling cabal which is centered around the Rockefeller interests, which include elements from the Morgan, Brown, Rothschild, Du Pont, Harriman, Kuhn-Loeb, and other groupings as well. This junta took control of the political, financial, and cultural life of America in the first two decades of the twentieth century”.
– Carroll Quigley
#5 “The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences”.
– Carroll Quigley
#6 “The whole profit of the issuance of money has provided the capital of the great banking business as it exists today. Starting with nothing whatever of their own, they have got the whole world into their debt irredeemably, by a trick. This money comes into existence every time the banks 'lend' and disappears every time the debt is repaid to them. So that if industry tries to repay, the money of the nation disappears. This is what makes prosperity so 'dangerous' as it destroys money just when it is most needed and precipitates a slump. There is nothing left now for us but to get ever deeper and deeper into debt to the banking system in order to provide the increasing amounts of money the nation requires for its expansion and growth. An honest money system is the only alternative”.
– Frederick Soddy
#7 “And the men who loan money to governments, so called, for the purpose of enabling the latter to rob, enslave, and murder their people, are among the greatest villains that the world has ever seen. And they as much deserve to be hunted and killed (if they cannot otherwise be got rid of) as any slave traders, robbers, or pirates that ever lived”.
– Lysander Spooner
#8 “The Rothschilds, and that class of money-lenders of whom they are the representatives and agents - men who never think of lending a shilling to their next-door neighbors, for purposes of honest industry, unless upon the most ample security, and at the highest rate of interest - stand ready, at all times, to lend money in unlimited amounts to those robbers and murderers, who call themselves governments, to be expended in shooting down those who do not submit quietly to being robbed and enslaved”.
– Lysander Spooner
#9 “Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits”.
– Sir Josiah Stamp
#10 “Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal -- that there is no human relation between master and slave”.
– Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoi
#11 “What is needed here is a return to the Constitution of the United States. We need to have a complete divorce of Bank and State. The old struggle that was fought out here in Jackson's day must be fought over again... The Federal Reserve Act should be repealed and the Federal Reserve Banks, having violated their charters, should be liquidated immediately. Faithless Government officers who have violated their oaths of office should be impeached and brought to trial. Unless this is done by us, I predict that the American people, outraged, robbed, pillaged, insulted, and betrayed as they are in their own land, will rise in their wrath and send a President here who will sweep the money changers out of the temple”. – Louis McFadden
#12 “This Act (the Federal Reserve Act, Dec. 23rd 1913) establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President (Woodrow Wilson) signs this bill, the invisible government by the Monetary Power will be legalized. The people may not know it immediately, but the day of reckoning is only a few years removed. The trusts will soon realize that they have gone too far even for their own good. The people must make a declaration of independence to relieve themselves from the Monetary Power. This they will be able to do by taking control of Congress. Wall Streeters could not cheat us if you Senators and Representatives did not make a humbug of Congress... The greatest crime of Congress is its currency system. The worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking bill. The caucus and the party bosses have again operated and prevented the people from getting the benefit of their own government”. – Charles A. Lindbergh Sr.
#13 “History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance”.
– James Madison
#14 “If Congress has the right under the Constitution to issue paper money, it was given to be used by themselves, not to be delegated to individuals or corporations”.
– Andrew Jackson
#15 “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered”.
– Thomas Jefferson
#16 “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the Government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs”.
– Thomas Jefferson
#17 “Emitting bills of credit, or the creation of money by private corporations, is what is expressly forbidden by Article 1, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution”.
– U.S. Supreme Court
TacMedic556
11-23-11, 19:03
Moose
Great quotes. I cannot agree with you more.
Belmont31R
11-23-11, 19:25
One of several similar articles Ive read in the last year. People are smelling blood in the water.
WEBSTER GROVES, MO (KMOX) - A chain of three stores that sells survival food and gear reports a jump in sales to people who are getting prepared for the “possible collapse” of society.
“We had to order fifty cases of the meals ready to eat to keep up with the demand in the past three months,” said manager Steve Dorsey at Uncle Sam’s Safari Outfitters Inc. in Webster Groves. “That’s not normal. Usually we sell 20 to 30 cases in a whole year.”
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/11/23/survival-shop-reports-jump-in-sales-to-people-preparing-for-possible-collapse/
Would have posted in the bajadores/coyotes thread but I can't post in general yet, although it's relevant to this one as well...
Zetas have a shootout in Houston
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Zeta-soldiers-launched-Mexico-style-attack-in-2283370.php
Moose-Knuckle
11-23-11, 21:14
Moose
Great quotes. I cannot agree with you more.
Thanks for posting the story and the links. When compared, the older quotes that I posted and the more recent ones that you posted mirror one another. This as they say is a clue. . .
Zetas have a shootout in Houston
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...in-2283370.php .
It can't be! Janet said so. . .
25 March 2011
“There is a perception that the border is worse now than it ever has been,” Napolitano said. “That is wrong. The border is better now than it ever has been.”
It’s also “wrong,” Napolitano said, that the drug-related violence in northern Mexico is spilling over into U.S. border cities. Violent crime rates in cities in the Southwest have stayed flat or fallen, she said.
:rolleyes:
Stangman, I will repost your post in HOP's thread in GD. :cool:
VooDoo6Actual
11-24-11, 10:19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBf0I-rB0m0&feature=player_embedded#!
Hit the "CC" link in the lower box of youtube for English translation.
"First, I am instructing the Defense Ministry to immediately put the missile attack early warning radar station in Kaliningrad on combat alert. Second, protective cover of Russia's strategic nuclear weapons, will be reinforced as a priority measure under the programme to develop out air and space defenses. Third, the new strategic ballistic missiles commissioned by the Strategic Missile Forces and the Navy will be equipped with advanced missile defense penetration systems and new highly-effective warheads. Fourth, I have instructed the Armed Forces to draw up measures for disabling missile defense system data and guidance systems if need be... Fifth, if the above measures prove insufficient, the Russian Federation will deploy modern offensive weapon systems in the west and south of the country, ensuring our ability to take out any part of the US missile defense system, in Europe. One step in this process will be to deploy Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad Region.
Moose-Knuckle
11-24-11, 10:43
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBf0I-rB0m0&feature=player_embedded#!
Hit the "CC" link in the lower box of youtube for English translation.
"First, I am instructing the Defense Ministry to immediately put the missile attack early warning radar station in Kaliningrad on combat alert. Second, protective cover of Russia's strategic nuclear weapons, will be reinforced as a priority measure under the programme to develop out air and space defenses. Third, the new strategic ballistic missiles commissioned by the Strategic Missile Forces and the Navy will be equipped with advanced missile defense penetration systems and new highly-effective warheads. Fourth, I have instructed the Armed Forces to draw up measures for disabling missile defense system data and guidance systems if need be... Fifth, if the above measures prove insufficient, the Russian Federation will deploy modern offensive weapon systems in the west and south of the country, ensuring our ability to take out any part of the US missile defense system, in Europe. One step in this process will be to deploy Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad Region.
While America is over indulging themselves with turkey and planning to stampede stores for overpriced shit from China, the Bear preps for war. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
TacMedic556
11-24-11, 14:15
Most Americans thought process on economic disaster or war-"It cannot and will not happen". Because they have not experienced a disaster of the magnitude, they believe it cannot happen. Also, in order to accept the fact that a certain disaster may occur, one then must accept that certain preparations and mindsets need to be adopted. This changes their priorities. Denial is not a river in Egypt. :sarcastic:
Normalcy Bias- The normalcy bias, or normality bias, refers to a mental state people enter when facing a disaster. It causes people to underestimate both the possibility of a disaster occurring and its possible effects. This often results in situations where people fail to adequately prepare for a disaster, and on a larger scale, the failure governments to include the populace in its disaster preparations. The assumption that is made in the case of the normalcy bias is that since a disaster never has occurred then it never will occur. It also results in the inability of people to cope with a disaster once it occurs. People with a normalcy bias have difficulties reacting to something they have not experienced before. People also tend to interpret warnings in the most optimistic way possible, seizing on any ambiguities to infer a less serious situation.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalcy_bias
Moose-Knuckle
11-24-11, 16:54
Most Americans thought process on economic disaster or war-"It cannot and will not happen". Because they have not experienced a disaster of the magnitude, they believe it cannot happen. Also, in order to accept the fact that a certain disaster may occur, one then must accept that certain preparations and mindsets need to be adopted. This changes their priorities. Denial is not a river in Egypt. :sarcastic:
Normalcy Bias- The normalcy bias, or normality bias, refers to a mental state people enter when facing a disaster. It causes people to underestimate both the possibility of a disaster occurring and its possible effects. This often results in situations where people fail to adequately prepare for a disaster, and on a larger scale, the failure governments to include the populace in its disaster preparations. The assumption that is made in the case of the normalcy bias is that since a disaster never has occurred then it never will occur. It also results in the inability of people to cope with a disaster once it occurs. People with a normalcy bias have difficulties reacting to something they have not experienced before. People also tend to interpret warnings in the most optimistic way possible, seizing on any ambiguities to infer a less serious situation.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalcy_bias
100% spot on.
My grandfather is 93, he grew up during the Great Depression, and when he was in his early twenties a guy in a uniform pulled up next to him on the streets of Des Moines and told him, "Congratulations - you've just joined the United States Army". Soon after he found himself in WWII Europe. Few Americans alive today have experienced a financial collapse and global open war like the “greatest generation” did.
Until it happens to them, the majority of people will go about their daily lives like good little programmed sheep.
That Guy v2.0
11-27-11, 03:07
A few articles from zerohedge.com
Britain's Foreign Office Prepares For Riots In Europe; Sees Euro Collapse "When, Not If"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/britains-foreign-office-prepares-riots-europe-sees-euro-collapse-when-not-if
A second one about the woman who pepper sprayed other shoppers at Wal Mart over an xbox.
A quote with the first article in mind:
Imagine how these same people might act in the event that they not only get no Xbox, but no food due to financial instability. Imagine a 200 pound spoiled toddler with an addiction to immediate gratification being told "you are owed nothing". The response would probably be similar to (or even worse than) a large portion of the American populace as featured in the videos below:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-woman-pepper-sprays-shoppers-get-xbox
Same method that predicted Italian financial stress says England is next. How long until the US is on deck?
Goldman's Sigma X Hints Who The Next Contagion Target Is:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/goldmans-sigma-x-hints-who-next-contagion-target
I'm concerned that this new generation will have to be the next "great generation". What and with the Euro taking a nosedive, China on the rise, the Russians locking and loading, and an nuclear Iran, we have enough problems abroad. That's not even mentioning the dangers we face domestically in terms of this OWS thing going violent, Soros/NWO following the collapse of the Euro, UN arms treaty, and the duly-elected-Fascist-in-Chief taking us over the cliff at 180 miles an hour.
I'm also concerned this generation won't step up to the task.
Belmont31R
11-27-11, 10:40
I'm concerned that this new generation will have to be the next "great generation". What and with the Euro taking a nosedive, China on the rise, the Russians locking and loading, and an nuclear Iran, we have enough problems abroad. That's not even mentioning the dangers we face domestically in terms of this OWS thing going violent, Soros/NWO following the collapse of the Euro, UN arms treaty, and the duly-elected-Fascist-in-Chief taking us over the cliff at 180 miles an hour.
I'm also concerned this generation won't step up to the task.
The 'Greatest Generation' are the ones who instituted most of the major "entitlement" programs we have today, and created the entitlement class.
The 'Greatest Generation' are the ones who instituted most of the major "entitlement" programs we have today, and created the entitlement class.
I don't think you can roll that whole generation up into one class....the entitlement programs were created in a time of great need by a minority of people and accepted by the majority because of the conditions of that time. Whether it was meant ONLY for that time and not for continuity, I don't know, but to say that they are the cause of our problems today, not so sure about that.
Remember, "never let a good crisis go to waste"...that has been around for a long time, although maybe never so boldly stated...
The 'Greatest Generation' are the ones who instituted most of the major "entitlement" programs we have today, and created the entitlement class.
Won't argue that. I meant in the sense of being faced by a massive economic crisis growing up, and then a World War. I hope they'll handle it better than the last "Greatest Generation" (the economics I mean).
Belmont31R
11-27-11, 11:35
I don't think you can roll that whole generation up into one class....the entitlement programs were created in a time of great need by a minority of people and accepted by the majority because of the conditions of that time. Whether it was meant ONLY for that time and not for continuity, I don't know, but to say that they are the cause of our problems today, not so sure about that.
Remember, "never let a good crisis go to waste"...that has been around for a long time, although maybe never so boldly stated...
Im just saying they enabled the welfare state to come about among other things like creating student loans for anyone with a pulse, and that has caused the price of tuitition to sky rocket. They did some awesome things like mobilize the country to fight WW2 but they also saddled my generation with some pretty sucky things. You also have to remember going into WW2 unemployment was still quite high, and people were eager to get back to work.
Anyways no this current generation is not going to handle things as well. Life is easier now, and people are not as accustomed to the simple living and hard work it takes to make it during crisis. Our country has grown up with technology that makes life easier. For someone going through the Great Depression many people did not have cars, were used to eating cheaply, lots of people didn't have electricity, and many things were done by hand. The leap we would have to take to make it us much greater than what they had to do.
And during the depression there were still lots of people in soup lines. Its not as if every person during the GD or that era was able to sustain themselves. There were lots of riots and it was a pretty turbulent time period.
VooDoo6Actual
11-27-11, 12:03
Can you even imagine when it's survival for FOOD........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNjHTkfsvwk
Im just saying they enabled the welfare state to come about among other things like creating student loans for anyone with a pulse, and that has caused the price of tuitition to sky rocket. They did some awesome things like mobilize the country to fight WW2 but they also saddled my generation with some pretty sucky things. You also have to remember going into WW2 unemployment was still quite high, and people were eager to get back to work.
Anyways no this current generation is not going to handle things as well. Life is easier now, and people are not as accustomed to the simple living and hard work it takes to make it during crisis. Our country has grown up with technology that makes life easier. For someone going through the Great Depression many people did not have cars, were used to eating cheaply, lots of people didn't have electricity, and many things were done by hand. The leap we would have to take to make it us much greater than what they had to do.
And during the depression there were still lots of people in soup lines. Its not as if every person during the GD or that era was able to sustain themselves. There were lots of riots and it was a pretty turbulent time period.
While disheartening, what you say is true. It's gonna be very difficult to break the cycle of laziness in people.
Can you even imagine when it's survival for FOOD........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNjHTkfsvwk
Thats funny, Glenn Beck LITERALLY just made that exact comment on his show :sarcastic:
Moose-Knuckle
11-29-11, 00:57
Can you even imagine when it's survival for FOOD........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNjHTkfsvwk
I'm glad SF manufactures 60 and 100 round STANAG mags now. ;)
VooDoo6Actual
11-29-11, 12:03
Thats funny, Glenn Beck LITERALLY just made that exact comment on his show :sarcastic:
I'm underpaid no doubt.
QuietShootr
11-29-11, 12:19
Can you even imagine when it's survival for FOOD........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNjHTkfsvwk
Funny, I went out for a new TV at midnight on Friday, and I thought the exact same thing when I was standing in Best Buy at 1215. ****, these people are practically nuts for a ****ing xbox - you're going to need a 240 to get rid of them if they're starving and they think you have food.
I work in the LA/LB Harbors and the Occupy people have stated they will shut down the West Coast ports on 12/12. I don't care for them and some of my fellow workers do have a lot of sympathy for them so it could be difficult on that Monday. My union has said they are not a legal picket line, but we shouldn't cross any line that makes us feel unsafe so we can cross if they don't get crazy
I feel we will see more confrontations such as this in the future and it is dificult for me to be prepared when I can't be armed, the Feds frown on that on the docks. I don't think most of the Occupiers wil be a problem, but they appear to have a hard core group who are bent on anarchy. Those are the ones I worry about, I can't be as aggresive with them as I would like to deter them so I will just smie as I drive by or thru them.
In the future we might have to be armed just to go to work, I will survive no matter what.
Moose-Knuckle
11-29-11, 14:59
I work in the LA/LB Harbors and the Occupy people have stated they will shut down the West Coast ports on 12/12. I don't care for them and some of my fellow workers do have a lot of sympathy for them so it could be difficult on that Monday. My union has said they are not a legal picket line, but we shouldn't cross any line that makes us feel unsafe so we can cross if they don't get crazy
I feel we will see more confrontations such as this in the future and it is dificult for me to be prepared when I can't be armed, the Feds frown on that on the docks. I don't think most of the Occupiers wil be a problem, but they appear to have a hard core group who are bent on anarchy. Those are the ones I worry about, I can't be as aggresive with them as I would like to deter them so I will just smie as I drive by or thru them.
In the future we might have to be armed just to go to work, I will survive no matter what.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups. I too live in a very large metro area, the only true defense against the hordes is distance. . .like a river, mountain range, and or a desert. Mobs absorb everything in their path.
14 minute video from 60 Minutes. Will definitely get the gears spinning and shows what is on the horizon for many more Americans. http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7389750n
VooDoo6Actual
11-29-11, 18:51
How does this feel ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD1T61oTrR8
QuietShootr
11-29-11, 19:19
How does this feel ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD1T61oTrR8
http://thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/johnny-cash-says-****-you.jpg
How does this feel ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD1T61oTrR8
I feel like a terrorist for having the necessary supplies to sustain my family for a short period of time without government assistance. :suicide2:
On a side note I really like Rand Paul and Judge Napolitano.
I feel like a terrorist for having the necessary supplies to sustain my family for a short period of time without government assistance. :suicide2:
On a side note I really like Rand Paul and Judge Napolitano.
You never know, at the rate our gov is going, you might be considered a terrorist for using an emoticon wielding a gun...
montanadave
11-29-11, 21:47
Well that's just ****ING GREAT!
I listen to you guys, decide to stock up on a few odds and ends, six months of freeze-dried food, fuel, ten or fifteen thousand rounds of ammo, and NOW I'M A ****ING TERRORIST!
You guys are in so much trouble!
:jester:
P.S. So I suppose this is going to totally **** up my chances of bidding on a decommissioned missile silo?
Belmont31R
11-29-11, 21:55
The socialist overloads don't like people being independent and self sufficient. That includes being able to protect themselves against the goon squads likes in NOLA taking an old pistol away from an old lady.
Sad but true.
Ive harped on this forum enough about one of the first things AG Holder did was petition for the NICS check to be tied into the terrorist watch list, and that requires NO judicial hearing or due process. Gov puts you on a list for whatever reason they want and no more guns for you!
If you think there is any accountability watch AG Holder or DHS Nepalitano at hearings before Congress. They play dumb and play word games so nothing gets accomplished and they know all the key words to avoid perjuring themselves. Its like telling a huge lie in front of your parents on Christmas Eve and getting away with it so you can get your presents.
Moose-Knuckle
11-29-11, 21:58
How does this feel ?
Like I need to be rounded up and re-educated at my regional FEMA camp set forth by H.R.-645. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb323.gif
How does this feel ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD1T61oTrR8
ATTENTION PREPPERS - Having More Than 7 Days Of Food Makes You A Suspected Terrorist
Costco is NOT going to like that...
LOL, every time I leave Costco I have at least 25 more days of Oatmeal
Just a Jarhead
11-30-11, 03:38
All so very Orwellian. All of these events unfolding, the topics of discussions on here and with friends. I feel like we've left our normal existence and ended up in the Twilight Zone some how. Simply amazing. But we ain't seen noithing yet. When it all starts to unravel it is going to happen so fast people's heads are going to be spinning.
More than one weeks of food??? I guess not living completely paycheck to paycheck makes you a potential terrorist? Damn that's twisted.
We better shut down Sams club ASAP
More than one weeks of food??? I guess not living completely paycheck to paycheck makes you a potential terrorist? Damn that's twisted.
We better shut down Sams club ASAP
Didn't you know? Sams Club and Costco are terrorist training centers.
VooDoo6Actual
11-30-11, 12:21
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s2011-210&sort=party
http://www.truthistreason.net/sb-1867-worldwide-indefinite-detention-and-the-senators-who-betrayed-you
http://wearechangetv.us/2011/11/61-senators-betrayed-you-today-they-authorized-the-indefinite-suspension-of-habeus-corpus/#axzz1fDKYVwyS
http://worldnotready.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/today-you-were-betrayed/
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/30-signs-that-the-united-states-of-america-is-being-turned-into-a-giant-prison
The photo of the esteemed Mr. Cash best sums up my sentiments.
So...an inbred Muslim burning an American flag and killing Israeli children (and killing ****ing AMERICAN CIVILIANS) is someone we should accept while they're abusing women. But I'm prepared for an invasion by those same mother****ers, I'm prepared to be self-reliant in a crisis(I won't be a burden on FEMA, either-you can keep your death camps, Obama) and I'm the terrorist?
Good, now my blood pressure's up. Jesus God...
TacMedic556
11-30-11, 14:31
Prepare for an Economic 9/11 and Economic Martial Law
Just listen to it. Do the research yourself. We're F'd.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/lewrockwell-show/2011/11/29/237-prepare-for-an-economic-911-and-economic-martial-law/
Moose-Knuckle
11-30-11, 16:56
So...an inbred Muslim burning an American flag and killing Israeli children (and killing ****ing AMERICAN CIVILIANS) is someone we should accept while they're abusing women. But I'm prepared for an invasion by those same mother****ers, I'm prepared to be self-reliant in a crisis(I won't be a burden on FEMA, either-you can keep your death camps, Obama) and I'm the terrorist?
It gets better, for several years now the DOJ has been circulating flyers such as these.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/fbiflyer.jpg
Front:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
Back:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg
Now our legislators are passing laws criminalizing law abiding citizens who think for themselves, quote the Constitution, and exercises their God given right of self-preservation.
Anyone that can and will think for themselves can see where this is going.
Belmont31R
11-30-11, 20:59
Anyone that can and will think for themselves can see where this HAS GONE.
Fixed, and look up FBI PATCON on google.
Please enjoy the following riot:
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5159/blacksonarampage.jpg
xjustintimex
12-01-11, 00:02
she is ripped :p
RogerinTPA
12-01-11, 00:25
You never know, at the rate our gov is going, you might be considered a terrorist for using an emoticon wielding a gun...
OR...a gun forum member, or any other forum member who discusses prepping, survival and self reliance. I'm pretty sure we've all been targeted.
How does this feel ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD1T61oTrR8
It is illegal in the State of California to stockpile more than 21 days of food. Has the State enforced this? No. Will they if there is an emergency? Hell yes. They will confiscate food, clothing and tools above what the State deems to be "reasonable" for a single person to own, and "redistribute" it to those that didn't bother to prepare. In this case, Obama's "spreading the wealth" will be performed at gunpoint.
It is illegal in the State of California to stockpile more than 21 days of food. Has the State enforced this? No. Will they if there is an emergency? Hell yes. They will confiscate food, clothing and tools above what the State deems to be "reasonable" for a single person to own, and "redistribute" it to those that didn't bother to prepare. In this case, Obama's "spreading the wealth" will be performed at gunpoint.
So any one in PRK best run. Not that this hasn't been obvious for decades, but leave. Leave any liberal opinions, views, paraphernalia, and other evidence you lived in that terrible, horrible state behind. Go somewhere free. The American Redoubt sounds good. And for God's Sake don't send your kid to college in Kali, they all leave Commie...
On the subject of police states and terrorist criteria, two generations back, you were suspicious if you weren't taking those precautions. Weatherproofed ammo was a blessing. A good supply of food was vital. People lost limbs in accidents. You earned respect for these things, not suspicion. Quoting the constitution wasn't a crime, quoting Marx was. Lets all take a step 120 years back in our political outlook. No that doesn't make me a racist, sexist, or gay-bashing inbred nutjob as some people believe. I hate that outlook. I don't want to go back to the days when a gay guy got burned alive or tarred and feathered. I don't want women to lose voting rights or be paid wages that are less than what they've earned. But I don't want the bisexual, transsexual, black woman (man? I don't know) to get the job I'm more qualified for because she (he? It?) isn't the same color, or same sexual orientation, or same sex (still confused on this one) as I am.
I know, I'm preaching to the choir and its a dead horse, off-topic too.
Off my soapbox, check the drug cartels:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/see-inside-the-sophisticated-ca-border-drug-tunnel-seized-with-30-tons-of-pot/
QuietShootr
12-01-11, 11:06
OR...a gun forum member, or any other forum member who discusses prepping, survival and self reliance. I'm pretty sure we've all been targeted.
And when they get one of us, they'll make sure to find meth and kiddy pron in the smoking rubble, and 3/4 of the guys here will say "Ohhh... well, he must have ****ing deserved it then."
And when they get one of us, they'll make sure to find meth and kiddy pron in the smoking rubble, and 3/4 of the guys here will say "Ohhh... well, he must have ****ing deserved it then."
True statement.
TacMedic556
12-01-11, 13:03
Alright brothers.......listen to the lyrics with me and sing along now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqnMrynpq9U
It is illegal in the State of California to stockpile more than 21 days of food. Has the State enforced this? No. Will they if there is an emergency? Hell yes. They will confiscate food, clothing and tools above what the State deems to be "reasonable" for a single person to own, and "redistribute" it to those that didn't bother to prepare. In this case, Obama's "spreading the wealth" will be performed at gunpoint.
I would be interested in finding the actual penal code here. This is interesting as the state has strongly advocated at least a 1 week supply of food.
http://lafd.org/eqbook.pdf
This does bring up the point that in an extended time of starvation and food rationing, those who do have extensive stockpiles would be wise to a) keep quiet about it and only let those closest to you know about it (and be prepared to share it with them once they know) and b) ration it even if you have enough for a 3000 calorie a day diet - people existing on 1000 calories a day will quickly spot those who are maintaining weight.
VooDoo6Actual
12-01-11, 14:44
It is illegal in the State of California to stockpile more than 21 days of food. Has the State enforced this? No. Will they if there is an emergency? Hell yes. They will confiscate food, clothing and tools above what the State deems to be "reasonable" for a single person to own, and "redistribute" it to those that didn't bother to prepare. In this case, Obama's "spreading the wealth" will be performed at gunpoint.
I would be interested in learning that section of the PC in California KYPD.
I asked a LAPD Vet today of that "LAW" & he was not aware of such a law on the books. He did have a somewhat interesting response which was that "Anal Sex was still considered illegal in the South"....
Which I thought was an interesting response from a Patrol officer.
I also researched Google and Penal Code in California & got nada.
TIA
Moose-Knuckle
12-01-11, 16:44
OR...a gun forum member, or any other forum member who discusses prepping, survival and self reliance. I'm pretty sure we've all been targeted.
Done and done; FBI PATCON, NSA ECHELON, Patriot Act, etc.
It is illegal in the State of California to stockpile more than 21 days of food. Has the State enforced this? No. Will they if there is an emergency? Hell yes. They will confiscate food, clothing and tools above what the State deems to be "reasonable" for a single person to own, and "redistribute" it to those that didn't bother to prepare. In this case, Obama's "spreading the wealth" will be performed at gunpoint.
Absolutely, the plans are in place for this sort of operation. Rex 84, Cable Splicer, Garden Plot, Barry's "Council of Governors".
And when they get one of us, they'll make sure to find meth and kiddy pron in the smoking rubble, and 3/4 of the guys here will say "Ohhh... well, he must have ****ing deserved it then."
Spot on.
I have told my wife in the past not to ever believe any allegations that may come against me in the future. That the day will come when people like me will be criminalized for owning firearms, quoting the Constitution, etc. For that to transpire people like us will have to be discredited. What better way to do that than to plant oops, I mean “find” kiddy porn on a burned up hard drive that some how survived the inferno that brought an end to the “armed standoff” that ensued when agents arrived at your residence to collect your “illegal” arms.
It worked for the DOJ before, the sheep ate up the media propaganda that David Koresh was sexually abusing children in Waco. No one cared to know how that false flag op really went down at Mount Carmel after that.
I have told my wife in the past not to ever believe any allegations that may come against me in the future. That the day will come when people like me will be criminalized for owning firearms, quoting the Constitution, etc. For that to transpire people like us will have to be discredited. What better way to do that than to plant oops, I mean “find” kiddy porn on a burned up hard drive that some how survived the inferno that brought an end to the “armed standoff” that ensued when agents arrived at your residence to collect your “illegal” arms.
It worked for the DOJ before, the sheep ate up the media propaganda that David Koresh was sexually abusing children in Waco. No one cared to know how that false flag op really went down at Mount Carmel after that.
Very good point on the false accusations and planting of evidence. The sheeple will eat it right up, accept that we, the guns/freedom/preparedness community are all crazy inbred child rapist racists, and after all, the police state wouldn't plant evidence and lie in court, not ever...
QuietShootr
12-01-11, 17:52
Very good point on the false accusations and planting of evidence. The sheeple will eat it right up, accept that we, the guns/freedom/preparedness community are all crazy inbred child rapist racists, and after all, the police state wouldn't plant evidence and lie in court, not ever...
The sad thing is not that the sheep will believe it...it's that you (we) guys will believe it. If some asshole arrested one of us and made an allegation to the press about any of the things above, I guaran-damn-tee you that person would be ostracized and at the very least asked not to post any more until the situation was resolved.
Not that it's likely to matter, but here's my public declaration, and they can quote me in the ****ing New York Times if it comes to that:
I am NOT into drugs of any kind, illegal porn of any kind, white supremacist activity, any organized religious shit at all, I do not plot to overthrow the government of the United States by force, violence, or any other means, I do not own anything that is illegal as of today's date (but I'm not getting rid of anything in the future.) I do not own any illegal NFA items. As for the other obvious avenues of attack, I do not even LIKE children, male or female, related or not. I am definitely not gay. I hold the Nation of Islam, the JDL, the KKK, Nazism, Communism, and both major political parties with equal disdain. I do not believe making any of them a martyr would serve any good end whatsoever, and I pray every night for the continued good health of the ones I hate the most. To paraphrase Voltaire, what they say may make me want to vomit, but I will defend to the death their right to say it.
Yes, I did some shit when I was a kid that I'm not proud of, but I have ZERO criminal history and a whole shitload of good things accomplished between then and now...so anyone who thinks I can be blackmailed would be well advised not to waste their time.
I confess my vices are expensive guns, fine cognac, good cigars, and crazy blue-eyed brunette women.
I am not a criminal. Please don't make me into one, because it will not end well for anyone.
And finally, like the famous rattlesnake and Will Smith said, Don't Tread on Me...though Will said it like this: "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'."
This far and no farther.
III
The sad thing is not that the sheep will believe it...it's that you (we) guys will believe it. If some asshole arrested one of us and made an allegation to the press about any of the things above, I guaran-damn-tee you that person would be ostracized and at the very least asked not to post any more until the situation was resolved.
Not that it's likely to matter, but here's my public declaration, and they can quote me in the ****ing New York Times if it comes to that:
I am NOT into drugs of any kind, illegal porn of any kind, white supremacist activity, any organized religious shit at all, I do not plot to overthrow the government of the United States by force, violence, or any other means, I do not own anything that is illegal as of today's date (but I'm not getting rid of anything in the future.) I do not own any illegal NFA items. As for the other obvious avenues of attack, I do not even LIKE children, male or female, related or not. I am definitely not gay. I hold the Nation of Islam, the JDL, the KKK, Nazism, Communism, and both major political parties with equal disdain. I do not believe making any of them a martyr would serve any good end whatsoever, and I pray every night for the continued good health of the ones I hate the most. To paraphrase Voltaire, what they say may make me want to vomit, but I will defend to the death their right to say it.
Yes, I did some shit when I was a kid that I'm not proud of, but I have ZERO criminal history and a whole shitload of good things accomplished between then and now...so anyone who thinks I can be blackmailed would be well advised not to waste their time.
I confess my vices are expensive guns, fine cognac, good cigars, and crazy blue-eyed brunette women.
I am not a criminal. Please don't make me into one, because it will not end well for anyone.
And finally, like the famous rattlesnake and Will Smith said, Don't Tread on Me...though Will said it like this: "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'."
This far and no farther.
III
Can I second that?
TacMedic556
12-01-11, 18:40
I am NOT into drugs of any kind, illegal porn of any kind, white supremacist activity, any organized religious shit at all, I do not plot to overthrow the government of the United States by force, violence, or any other means, I do not own anything that is illegal as of today's date (but I'm not getting rid of anything in the future.) I do not own any illegal NFA items. As for the other obvious avenues of attack, I do not even LIKE children, male or female, related or not. I am definitely not gay. I hold the Nation of Islam, the JDL, the KKK, Nazism, Communism, and both major political parties with equal disdain. I do not believe making any of them a martyr would serve any good end whatsoever, and I pray every night for the continued good health of the ones I hate the most. To paraphrase Voltaire, what they say may make me want to vomit, but I will defend to the death their right to say it.
Yes, I did some shit when I was a kid that I'm not proud of, but I have ZERO criminal history and a whole shitload of good things accomplished between then and now...so anyone who thinks I can be blackmailed would be well advised not to waste their time.
I am not a criminal. Please don't make me into one, because it will not end well for anyone.
And finally, like the famous rattlesnake and Will Smith said, Don't Tread on Me...though Will said it like this: "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'."
This far and no farther.
III
AMEN!!
I second that and the same applies here. I have never ever done anything illegal worse than J-Walking. I love my family. I am a public servant that loves my community. I am actually quite pacifistic in my views, however I love firearms, tactical shooting and knowing how to DEFEND MYSELF AND OTHERS. I too have a weakness for quality knives, axes, firearms, packs, etc. I have never cheated on my wife, never will. I put the safety and welfare of most others above my own. I love this land I live on, my home, my neighbors, my town, my state, my region, my country.
GOD HAVE MERCY ON ANYONE WHO TRIES TO HARM THEM BECAUSE I SURE WILL NOT.
It gets better, for several years now the DOJ has been circulating flyers such as these.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/fbiflyer.jpg
Front:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
Back:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg
Now our legislators are passing laws criminalizing law abiding citizens who think for themselves, quote the Constitution, and exercises their God given right of self-preservation.
Hell, I guess the entire US Military has to be on the DOJ's radar. "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" is an oath taken by all.
The house needs to be cleaned.
Hell, I guess the entire US Military has to be on the DOJ's radar. "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" is an oath taken by all.
The house needs to be cleaned.
Errr...just being a realist here, but not everyone takes their oaths seriously. To many, it's just another step to a meal ticket.
And...many in the military might not even know what a domestic enemy was if it was sitting across from them staring them in the face. The lack of good judgement and critical thinking skills in today's youth is obvious. Hell, it's not just the youth, but the majority of the population as a whole.
The Oath being taken seriously or not is hardly the point. The point is that the document labels anyone that calls themselves a defender of the Constitution a threat. The words in the Oath immediately identify the "Oath Taker" a threat.
The DOJ is the real threat. I can see the KKK, Black Panthers, Skinheads, etc... being looked at because they function by threat, hate, and exclusion. Who else would you want to populate a country though besides people that want to and will defend it. The goal of obama, the goal of liberals, the goal of progressives, the goal of the current doj, the goal of the left in general is to break down and destroy the Constitution and push on through to the destruction of the United States. NOTHING being done in DC is making America stronger, and I mean NOTHING. Both parties are at fault and like I said the house needs to be cleaned. We are living in the America that obama in ushering in and this thread is full of examples of civil unreast that is boiling up. Interestingly enough it's the left that has lit the fire under the pot. This will of course be slanted by the doj even further and used to demonize real Patriots.
Have a look at these.
http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news-/when-governments-go-rogue_12012011
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/secretly-scheming-to-outlaw-your-guns-122011
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-how-us-will-become-3rd-world-country-part-1
Good info there R.P.
What's really going to stop this attack on our country?
The 90 million gun owners in the US definitely need to vote next year. Make it known that they're/we're going to vote. Every f'n one of us is going to vote out anyone that does not support the Constitution no matter what and the 2nd especially, no matter what party, and replace them with someone that understands that the 2nd is really America's first and best defense against the rest of the world. The UN needs to pack up and get the f off our soil. The fact that they are sitting there plotting against the US from within our borders is mind-bottling... I mean boggling. 90 million voters can restore America. The coming civil unrest is just a fact though. It's going to happen. How we deal with it and how we are prepared to deal with it will be a real test for our country.
There is an overwhelming majority in America of people that love our country. There is no excuse for where we are other than the fact that they are not voting. If every Patriot voted it would be a slaughter of the left and the end of their agenda in America.
TacMedic556
12-02-11, 15:52
3 States where you will most likely find friends and live through whatever happens to occur in this world.
Montana
Idaho
Wyoming
Sparse populations, somewhat friendlier freedom minded governments, less taxes, open space, food, land, game, etc.
I love all people. I really do. I love all races, Asians, Africans, Mexicans, Italians, Germans, Canadians:), Greeks, Arabs, ....
I judge no man. We are all equal with inalienable rights endowed by our creator. I believe that the safest places to be in the near term will be in the above mentioned states.
3 States where you will most likely find friends and live through whatever happens to occur in this world.
Montana
Idaho
Wyoming
I believe that the safest places to be in the near term will be in the above mentioned states.
I agree with your assessment 100% and wish I could convince the wife that we need to live in that region. With the exception of the CA residents who've flooded the area in the past couple of years screwing up the economy in that area, mainly housing and land, I'd say the people in that region are very down to earth and most here on M4C would fit in quite well.
I agree with your assessment 100% and wish I could convince the wife that we need to live in that region. With the exception of the CA residents who've flooded the area in the past couple of years screwing up the economy in that area, mainly housing and land, I'd say the people in that region are very down to earth and most here on M4C would fit in quite well.
I'm not even kidding when I say I could step out onto the deck of my house (Wy) and shoot a deer about 3/4 of the year and I live in town!
Neighbors actually get out of their cars and help you when you are stuck in the snow, they come over with food when (not if) they hear you are sick (small town, information travels fast)
People check on elderly neighbors if there's more than one newspaper on the driveway.
Excess game meat never gets thrown away, they usually have bbq's with a knock on your door to come on over.
The sheriff will come and talk to someone if a complaint is made (had some California transplant call the sheriff on me because I was unloading my guns after a range trip, it was quite entertaining when the Cali-tard stood on his porch to "watch me get arrested". Instead, the sheriff shook my hand and sat on my tailgate while we bullshitted. hehe)
Wyoming is about the nicest place I know of, and it helps that it's a 100 miles from anywhere between towns, believe it or not. We are fairly insulated from the idiots in that regard.
TacMedic556
12-02-11, 19:22
With the exception of the CA residents who've flooded the area in the past couple of years screwing up the economy in that area, mainly housing and land, I'd say the people in that region are very down to earth and most here on M4C would fit in quite well.
The housing has collapsed well here. You can buy homes for $100,000 that are only 2-3 years old! I have seen foreclosures for even less. The work is good here as our economy is stable. Construction, health care, service, etc. There is hope here. It is EASY to start a business too. A business license in most towns (the ones that even require them as most do not) are $100 or less!
Trust me, taxes are less than $1000 a year if you live in a rural/county area whereas in city you might look at $2000-$3000 per year.
People who move here on average leave within 5 years. They are sally's that cannot hack it. I moved here from California over 18 years ago and I am still here. I hunt, fish, hike, shoot and love the state as my home.
You cannot afford not to live here. PM me if you want to know more.
Just to get you thinking... motorcyclists shut down the Oakland freeway. http://youtu.be/j1Gk0HJVE8Y
Moose-Knuckle
12-02-11, 20:48
Just to get you thinking... motorcyclists shut down the Oakland freeway. http://youtu.be/j1Gk0HJVE8Y
Head shots? After the first couple of their buddy's brain matter spray on across their visors they would full throttle the hell out of there like an ass raped silver back. . . http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb003.gif
I highly recommend a deep breath regarding all this talk of "Obama's gonna take my guns!"
You said it yourselves that anyone who tries to take our firearms will, no doubt, encounter resistance. So realistically, how many LEO's or soldiers (most of whom wouldn't follow that order) would it take to confiscate just one citizen's firearm? Three to seven would be about right, depending on the number of adults in the home.
So, if we just do a little math we find there are not enough "jackbooted thugs" to pull it off. There aren't enough analysts to monitor the daily communications output of 400m people and the bad guys overseas. No where near enough agents to investigate so-called "subversives."
Quiet preps and a cold beer will calm those shakes.:moil:
The sad thing is not that the sheep will believe it...it's that you (we) guys will believe it. If some asshole arrested one of us and made an allegation to the press about any of the things above, I guaran-damn-tee you that person would be ostracized and at the very least asked not to post any more until the situation was resolved.
Not that it's likely to matter, but here's my public declaration, and they can quote me in the ****ing New York Times if it comes to that:
I am NOT into drugs of any kind, illegal porn of any kind, white supremacist activity, any organized religious shit at all, I do not plot to overthrow the government of the United States by force, violence, or any other means, I do not own anything that is illegal as of today's date (but I'm not getting rid of anything in the future.) I do not own any illegal NFA items. As for the other obvious avenues of attack, I do not even LIKE children, male or female, related or not. I am definitely not gay. I hold the Nation of Islam, the JDL, the KKK, Nazism, Communism, and both major political parties with equal disdain. I do not believe making any of them a martyr would serve any good end whatsoever, and I pray every night for the continued good health of the ones I hate the most. To paraphrase Voltaire, what they say may make me want to vomit, but I will defend to the death their right to say it.
Yes, I did some shit when I was a kid that I'm not proud of, but I have ZERO criminal history and a whole shitload of good things accomplished between then and now...so anyone who thinks I can be blackmailed would be well advised not to waste their time.
KjI confess my vices are expensive guns, fine cognac, good cigars, and crazy blue-eyed brunette women.
I am not a criminal. Please don't make me into one, because it will not end well for anyone.
And finally, like the famous rattlesnake and Will Smith said, Don't Tread on Me...though Will said it like this: "Don't start nothin', won't be nothin'."
This far and no farther.
III
This 100% fits me and many I know. If you put this on a t-shirt, I will buy it.
Head shots? After the first couple of their buddy's brain matter spray on across their visors they would full throttle the hell out of there like an ass raped silver back. . . http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb003.gif
Or just floor it
You said it yourselves that anyone who tries to take our firearms will, no doubt, encounter resistance. So realistically, how many LEO's or soldiers (most of whom wouldn't follow that order) .:moil:
Really?!?!?!? Some people in New Orleans might have something different to say about this.
I think you're in for a very rude awakening if you think some people (LEO or Mil) will put their job and livelihood at risk and not follow that order for a perfect stranger.
I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but I guess I'm a realistic pessimist who learns from history.
I highly recommend a deep breath regarding all this talk of "Obama's gonna take my guns!"
You said it yourselves that anyone who tries to take our firearms will, no doubt, encounter resistance. So realistically, how many LEO's or soldiers (most of whom wouldn't follow that order) would it take to confiscate just one citizen's firearm? Three to seven would be about right, depending on the number of adults in the home.
So, if we just do a little math we find there are not enough "jackbooted thugs" to pull it off. There aren't enough analysts to monitor the daily communications output of 400m people and the bad guys overseas. No where near enough agents to investigate so-called "subversives."
Quiet preps and a cold beer will calm those shakes.:moil:
Im sure the people in/around New Orleans thought the same...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4
Really?!?!?!? Some people in New Orleans might have something different to say about this.
You mean like that little old lady with a rusty revolver who was tackled by that human pile of shit LEO?
I hope he felt like a hero stripping her of her constitutional rights.
I think you're in for a very rude awakening if you think some people (LEO or Mil) will put their job and livelihood at risk and not follow that order for a perfect stranger.
I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but I guess I'm a realistic pessimist who learns from history.
I would have to agree. I know some fine honorable men in law enforcement that would have a problem with this, but I also know a LOT of local police and deputies that are thugs. The town I grew up in has the entire police force made up of people I went to high school with that were all bullies and/or drug dealers. They like the job because of the power and being somewhat above the law themselves. These people are not going to have a problem taking your guns as long as they keep theirs. IMHO
Im sure the people in/around New Orleans thought the same...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4
Coincidentally the last of 5 cooperating officers from the Danziger bridge incident was sentented this week to 5 years in prison. http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011/12/former_new_orleans_police_offi_3.html
PA PATRIOT
12-03-11, 12:47
You mean like that little old lady with a rusty revolver who was tackled by that human pile of shit LEO?
I hope he felt like a hero stripping her of her constitutional rights.
Lets take a step back here and look at the situation that this LEO may have been operating under before we start calling names. Now I'M not justifying the action he took or am I condemning it as each operational situation is different but I can tell you that certain liberties will be suspended during a time of catastrophic disaster if the local government, State Governor or federal government deems the need.
Now this was a trial by fire as this area was never hit with such a disaster and maybe some wrong calls were made in the attempt to restore order, stop looting and conduct rescue operations in the area.
If I recall correctly there was a mandatory evacuation order of the populace and the under staffed N.O. Police were coming under fire from looters and roaming bands of thugs when conducting rescue operations while also trying to restore order during mass looting in down town N.O. so the local government ok'ed a executive emergency order to remove guns from armed persons in public places revoking CCW and open carry.
Whether the gun removal order was legal or not this was the law of the land during a time of disaster and there was no local, state or federal court order to counter the local governments executive emergency order so the local PD, state police and national guard all followed what orders they had.
Now this officer had a dispute with this armed woman inside her home were he was under orders to relocate/evict people from the disaster zone as the flood waters were still rising and she was basically refusing holding a firearm in her hand.
Now from personal experience when dealing with the elderly during a time of stress they some times have a firm mind set that no one is going to tell them what to do or were to go and they will fight you. Just ask anyone who works in a nursing home or assisted living community how the elderly will basically tell you to "F" off. Some are just to old to care what the repercussions of their actions could bring and act on impulse.
With that said and moving on this officer does not know this womans metal health status or does he know how she would act when forced to relocate. The only immediate safety issue at the moment is a woman refusing a mandatory evacuation order holding a firearm. Under the totality of the circumstances disarming the woman was more of a safety issue then the act of enforcing a gun confiscation.
If I was in this same situation "AT THAT TIME" my first priority would be for the safety of all persons in the room and would have asked for the firearm to be handed over in a safe manner talking kindly and trying to relate to her concerns and situation. If after some extend negotiations and if all of my attempts to persuade her failed and she still refused to let me take "TEMPORARY" control of the firearm I would have taken the matter to the next step and tried to use minimal force to remove the firearm as a last resort. Now if I was relocating the woman to a family member outside the disaster zone the firearm would have been returned without issue. If the woman had no family and no other means and had to be place in a private shelter were firearms were prohibited then a proper property receipt would have been issued to the woman and the firearm stored as department policy dictated.
Now I would never violate the anyones constitutional rights as it is my job to defend same. But on the same note I will not allow some one to violate my safety while I believe that under the current rule of law or under a local, state or federal executive emergency order that if by color of authority I have to act to enforce same. I can only enforce what appears to be lawful orders and laws at the time of the incident as I am not a lawyer or a constitutional scholar. Questions concerning a law or order which may during a time of crisis or major disaster infringe on the right of CCW and Open Carry is above my pay grade and are for the courts to decide.
So for the officer in question it is easy for us all to Monday Night Arm Chair Quarterback his actions but we were not the ones facing the situation as he was and following the orders he was obliged to enforce at the time.
New laws against gun confiscation during times of crisis have made this issue mute but we are talking about a past event under a different set of rules and laws. I feel this was more of a safety issue at the time of the firearm removal then a attempt to enforce a gun confiscation order.
The number one mission of every officer in this nation is to make it home at the end of the shift to family and friends.
I can tell you that certain liberties will be suspended during a time of catastrophic disaster if the local government, State Governor or federal government deems the need.
You can expect to see this in the future.
If I recall correctly there was a mandatory evacuation order of the populace and the way under staffed police were coming under fire from looters and roaming bands of thugs when conducting rescue operations while also trying to restore order during mass looting in down town N.O. so the local government ok'ed a executive emergency order to remove guns from armed persons in public places revoking CCW and open carry.
The whole "coming under fire" from gangs stuff has been thoroughly debunked. Most of it was rumors and the media fanning the flames with poor communication amongst the attending first responders.
Now this officer had a dispute with this armed woman inside her home were he was under orders to relocate/evict people from the disaster zone as the flood waters were still rising and she was basically refusing holding a firearm in her hand.
Here's the incident. http://youtu.be/B1Qx0cTze0M In America if a person chooses to stay in their home, regardless of the warnings, and they're armed or not, I say let them be. They'll either reap the rewards or suffer the consequences of their actions.
Phila - A well thought out response and I agree and disagree with some portions of it simply due to my own philosophies. If people want to discuss New Orleans and what happened during and after I think we should start a new thread. I think most people have a pretty firm grasp of what happened and have already formed their opinions.
Have a great weekend. :dance3:
PA PATRIOT
12-03-11, 13:41
You can expect to see this in the future.
The whole "coming under fire" from gangs stuff has been thoroughly debunked. Most of it was rumors and the media fanning the flames with poor communication amongst the attending first responders.
Here's the incident. http://youtu.be/B1Qx0cTze0M In America if a person chooses to stay in their home, regardless of the warnings, and they're armed or not, I say let them be. They'll either reap the rewards or suffer the consequences of their actions.
Phila - A well thought out response and I agree and disagree with some portions of it simply due to my own philosophies. If people want to discuss New Orleans and what happened during and after I think we should start a new thread. I think most people have a pretty firm grasp of what happened and have already formed their opinions.
Have a great weekend. :dance3:
I to believe that person should be allowed to stay in their homes if they so chose but I can see were a lot of extended family members would be suing the Police because we let grand mom or pop try to ride out the storm while under mandatory evacuation orders and were later found floating face down. Dammed if we do and Dammed if we don't.
Can't wait until I retire and go live in a nice quiet part of the country.
As you can see from PhilaPD's response, even officers who claim that they would never go against the constitution would readily do so if ordered to. So if the government decides they want your guns, don't depend on a rebellion within local law enforcement.
Belmont31R
12-03-11, 15:04
I to believe that person should be allowed to stay in their homes if they so chose but I can see were a lot of extended family members would be suing the Police because we let grand mom or pop try to ride out the storm while under mandatory evacuation orders and were later found floating face down. Dammed if we do and Dammed if we don't.
Can't wait until I retire and go live in a nice quiet part of the country.
Nope. Plenty of case laws even at SCOTUS level says LEO's have no duty to protect individual people. So if a family member tried to sue they would get nowhere. There are even more 'powerful' cases such as LEO's getting reports of rapes occuring 'right now' and they were not held liable even though their lack of action allowed the rape to continue and the women were killed. Ill look it up if you want me to. Im a bit fuzzy on the exact timeline of what happened.
Therefore forcibly evicting people for their own good is stepping above what LEO's are held legally liable for. If someone ends up being a floater because they didn't leave LEO's would not be held liable.
Going around taking people's guns from them, and hauling them off as prisoners for their own good is highly immoral and not required under legal liability. That is something someone dreamed up where the state is all powerful, all knowing, and is basically saying individual people cannot make their own decisions.
Firearms should only be taken from people if they are being held for a criminal action. We have guns so when we need them we have them. Not when we need them some LEO takes them away because he is following orders. **** orders. I thought that excuse went out the window during the Nuremberg trials where the defense was "we were just following orders"?
And yes I know all about old people. My wife is in home nursing and elderly are all about she takes care of. If you think the person is "out of their mind" then that is a valid reason but it shouldn't involve breaking bones and leaving heavy bruising or tackling people. Almost all of the time you have to clue in on where they think they are or what they think is happening....then talk them through it.
QuietShootr
12-03-11, 15:49
Nope. Plenty of case laws even at SCOTUS level says LEO's have no duty to protect individual people. So if a family member tried to sue they would get nowhere. There are even more 'powerful' cases such as LEO's getting reports of rapes occuring 'right now' and they were not held liable even though their lack of action allowed the rape to continue and the women were killed. Ill look it up if you want me to. Im a bit fuzzy on the exact timeline of what happened.
Therefore forcibly evicting people for their own good is stepping above what LEO's are held legally liable for. If someone ends up being a floater because they didn't leave LEO's would not be held liable.
Going around taking people's guns from them, and hauling them off as prisoners for their own good is highly immoral and not required under legal liability. That is something someone dreamed up where the state is all powerful, all knowing, and is basically saying individual people cannot make their own decisions.
Firearms should only be taken from people if they are being held for a criminal action. We have guns so when we need them we have them. Not when we need them some LEO takes them away because he is following orders. **** orders. I thought that excuse went out the window during the Nuremberg trials where the defense was "we were just following orders"?
And yes I know all about old people. My wife is in home nursing and elderly are all about she takes care of. If you think the person is "out of their mind" then that is a valid reason but it shouldn't involve breaking bones and leaving heavy bruising or tackling people. Almost all of the time you have to clue in on where they think they are or what they think is happening....then talk them through it.
And right about HERE is where I got permabanned from Lightfighter. So just go ahead and fill in whatever it is that I said over there so I don't have to keep repeating myself.
PA PATRIOT
12-03-11, 16:15
As you can see from PhilaPD's response, even officers who claim that they would never go against the constitution would readily do so if ordered to. So if the government decides they want your guns, don't depend on a rebellion within local law enforcement.
My response was based on the orders and current laws the officer in question may have been required to enforced at that time.
Today I would refuse such a order to remove firearms based on CURRENT law during a crisis or disaster if the holder of said firearm was legally able to possess same barring a Protection from Abuse Order, Restraining Order, Involuntary Metal Commitment, Felon not legally able to own or carry a firearm or a Court Order in the NCIC/PCIC system.
So don't make the argument that LEO's are all thugs out to trample your civil rights as thats a load of crap, we don't make the laws or have any say what special emergency orders are given during a time of crisis or disaster. As laws come into existence that allow LEO's to flat out refuse what would be a illegal order then all the better but it takes events like N.O. to bring about good change.
I'm not a LEO, so maybe someone that is can answer this for me. I would think that under an event like what happened in NO would be the perfect time for law abiding citizens to need their guns, so how can any law enforcement or gov. agency implement a NEW law removing them from said citizens??
R.
QuietShootr
12-03-11, 16:22
My response was based on the orders and current laws the officer in question may have been required to enforced at that time.
Today I would refuse such a order to remove firearms based on CURRENT law during a crisis or disaster if the holder of said firearm was legally able to possess same barring a Protection from Abuse Order, Restraining Order, Involuntary Metal Commitment, Felon not legally able to own or carry a firearm or a Court Order in the NCIC/PCIC system.
So don't make the argument that LEO's are all thugs out to trample your civil rights as thats a load of crap, we don't make the laws or have any say what special emergency orders are given during a time of crisis or disaster. As laws come into existence that allow LEO's to flat out refuse what would be a illegal order then all the better but it takes events like N.O. to bring about good change.
When you find yourself in the bottom of a hole, you should stop digging. You just proved his point for him. Did you not just say 'if the law says I have to do it, I have to do it'? So what if, next week, there's a terrorist strike, an emergency order is issued in Philadelphia that says citizens must surrender their guns to the police, and the Penn Supreme Court says it's lawful?
Do you do it, or not?
I didn't say that all LEOs were thugs. I know a lot of fine LEOs. I also know a lot that are in it for the wrong reasons.
My point is that LEOs will follow whatever "emergency orders" they are given under the assumption that that is the law at the time. They will not feel that they can refuse a direct order.
I've been reading along here for a while.
So don't make the argument that LEO's are all thugs out to trample your civil rights as thats a load of crap, we don't make the laws or have any say what special emergency orders are given during a time of crisis or disaster. As laws come into existence that allow LEO's to flat out refuse what would be a illegal order then all the better but it takes events like N.O. to bring about good change.
Nothing personal here, but it's been a long time since I've seen tap dancing of that quality.
You may not have any input as to what laws come in to existence, but you certainly don't need a law that allows you to disobey illegal orders.
That just reeks of "I was just following orders."
Back to lurking...but I just needed to say that.
QuietShootr
12-03-11, 16:29
I didn't say that all LEOs were thugs. I know a lot of fine LEOs. I also know a lot that are in it for the wrong reasons.
My point is that LEOs will follow whatever "emergency orders" they are given under the assumption that that is the law at the time. They will not feel that they can refuse a direct order.
This. Of all the cops I know, (and I know a LOT) there are three that I can say for sure would say "**** you", throw their badges down, and leave. Of the rest, some of them would outwardly comply but not look REAL hard for guns, and the others would do exactly what they were told to the letter. That's how it's going to be with the military, too.
PA PATRIOT
12-03-11, 16:33
Nope. Plenty of case laws even at SCOTUS level says LEO's have no duty to protect individual people. So if a family member tried to sue they would get nowhere. There are even more 'powerful' cases such as LEO's getting reports of rapes occurring 'right now' and they were not held liable even though their lack of action allowed the rape to continue and the women were killed. Ill look it up if you want me to. I'm a bit fuzzy on the exact timeline of what happened.
Therefore forcibly evicting people for their own good is stepping above what LEO's are held legally liable for. If someone ends up being a floater because they didn't leave LEO's would not be held liable.
Going around taking people's guns from them, and hauling them off as prisoners for their own good is highly immoral and not required under legal liability. That is something someone dreamed up where the state is all powerful, all knowing, and is basically saying individual people cannot make their own decisions.
Firearms should only be taken from people if they are being held for a criminal action. We have guns so when we need them we have them. Not when we need them some LEO takes them away because he is following orders. **** orders. I thought that excuse went out the window during the Nuremberg trials where the defense was "we were just following orders"?
And yes I know all about old people. My wife is in home nursing and elderly are all about she takes care of. If you think the person is "out of their mind" then that is a valid reason but it shouldn't involve breaking bones and leaving heavy bruising or tackling people. Almost all of the time you have to clue in on where they think they are or what they think is happening....then talk them through it.
I can say "F" orders in two years then I'll be right beside you gentleman, but until then unless my orders are grossly negligent or immediately endanger someone I have to follow within reason those orders given to me.
This argument is a dead point anyway as LEO's have a legal way to refuse illegal gun confiscation orders anywhere in the country under current law.
QuietShootr
12-03-11, 16:35
I can say "F" orders in two years then I'll be right beside you gentleman, but until then unless my orders are grossly negligent or immediately endanger someone I have to follow within reason those orders given to me.
This argument is a dead point anyway as LEO's have a legal way to refuse illegal gun confiscation orders anywhere in the country under current law.
So IOW, your retirement is more important than what's actually right.
I'm clear.
PA PATRIOT
12-03-11, 16:47
So IOW, your retirement is more important than what's actually right.
I'm clear.
H.R. 5013, the “Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act,” was introduced in the House by Congressman Bobby Jindal (LA - 1) and passed the House on July 25, 2006 with a broad bi-partisan margin of 322-99. Senator David Vitter (R-La) introduced the Senate version of the bill and added it as an Amendment to Homeland Security Appropriations, which passed the United States Senate by 84-16, the largest margin of victory for a NRA-backed measure. On October 9, 2006, President George W. Bush signed this legislation into law.
HR 5013 RFS
109th CONGRESS
2d Session
H. R. 5013
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
July 26, 2006
Received
August 4 (legislative day, AUGUST 3), 2006
Read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AN ACT
To amend the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act to prohibit the confiscation of firearms during certain national emergencies.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act of 2006'.
SEC. 2. FINDINGS.
Congress finds the following:
(1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution states that a `well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed', and Congress has repeatedly recognized this language as protecting an individual right.
(2) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, State and local law enforcement and public safety service organizations were overwhelmed and could not fulfill the safety needs of the citizens of the State of Louisiana.
(3) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the safety of these citizens, and of their homes and property, was threatened by instances of criminal activity.
(4) Many of these citizens lawfully kept firearms for the safety of themselves, their loved ones, their businesses, and their property, as guaranteed by the Second Amendment, and used their firearms, individually or in concert with their neighbors, for protection against crime.
(5) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, certain agencies confiscated the firearms of these citizens in contravention of the Second Amendment, depriving these citizens of the right to keep and bear arms and rendering them helpless against criminal activity.
(6) These confiscations were carried out at gunpoint by nonconsensual entries into private homes, by traffic checkpoints, by stoppage of boats, and otherwise by force.
(7) The citizens from whom firearms were confiscated were either in their own homes or attempting to flee the flooding and devastation by means of motor vehicle or boat, and were accosted, stopped, and arbitrarily deprived of their private property and means of protection.
(8) The means by which the confiscations were carried out, which included intrusion into the home, temporary detention of persons, and seizures of property, constituted unreasonable searches and seizures and deprived these citizens of liberty and property without due process of law in violation of fundamental rights under the Constitution.
(9) Many citizens who took temporary refuge in emergency housing were prohibited from storing firearms on the premises, and were thus treated as second-class citizens who had forfeited their constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
(10) At least one highly-qualified search and rescue team was prevented from joining in relief efforts because the team included individuals with firearms, although these individuals had been deputized as Federal law enforcement officers.
(11) These confiscations and prohibitions, and the means by which they were carried out, deprived the citizens of Louisiana not only of their right to keep and bear arms, but also of their rights to personal security, personal liberty, and private property, all in violation of the Constitution and laws of the United States.
SEC. 3. PROHIBITION ON CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS DURING CERTAIN NATIONAL EMERGENCIES.
Title VII of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5201) is amended by adding at the end the following:
SEC. 706. FIREARMS POLICIES.
(a) Prohibition on Confiscation of Firearms- No officer or employee of the United States (including any member of the uniformed services), or person operating pursuant to or under color of Federal law, or receiving Federal funds, or under control of any Federal official, or providing services to such an officer, employee, or other person, while acting in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency, may--
(1) temporarily or permanently seize, or authorize seizure of, any firearm the possession of which is not prohibited under Federal, State, or local law, other than for forfeiture in compliance with Federal law or as evidence in a criminal investigation;
(2) require registration of any firearm for which registration is not required by Federal, State, or local law;
(3) prohibit possession of any firearm, or promulgate any rule, regulation, or order prohibiting possession of any firearm, in any place or by any person where such possession is not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State, or local law; or
(4) prohibit the carrying of firearms by any person otherwise authorized to carry firearms under Federal, State, or local law, solely because such person is operating under the direction, control, or supervision of a Federal agency in support of relief from the major disaster or emergency.
(b) Limitation- Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit any person from requiring the temporary surrender of a firearm as a condition for entry into any mode of transportation used for rescue or evacuation during a major disaster or emergency.
(c) Private Rights of Action-
(1) IN GENERAL- Any individual aggrieved by a violation of this section may seek relief in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress against any person who subjects such individual, or causes such individual to be subjected, to the deprivation of any of the rights, privileges, or immunities secured by this section.
(2) REMEDIES- In addition to any existing remedy in law or equity, under any law, an individual aggrieved by the seizure or confiscation of a firearm in violation of this section may bring an action for return of such firearm in the United States district court in the district in which that individual resides or in which such firearm may be found.
(3) ATTORNEY FEES- In any action or proceeding to enforce this section, the court shall award
the prevailing party, other than the United States, a reasonable attorney's fee as part of the costs.'.
Passed the House of Representatives July 25, 2006.
**********************************************************************************
So whats the problems here?
We are talking 2nd Amendment rights here correct?
This is what I would follow to the letter!
Maybe I missed something?
Belmont31R
12-03-11, 17:10
H.R. 5013, the “Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act,” was introduced in the House by Congressman Bobby Jindal (LA - 1) and passed the House on July 25, 2006 with a broad bi-partisan margin of 322-99. Senator David Vitter (R-La) introduced the Senate version of the bill and added it as an Amendment to Homeland Security Appropriations, which passed the United States Senate by 84-16, the largest margin of victory for a NRA-backed measure. On October 9, 2006, President George W. Bush signed this legislation into law.
So whats the problems here?
We are talking 2nd Amendment rights here correct?
This is what I would follow to the letter!
Maybe I missed something?
Maybe people are just talking past each other here but the basic premise is that just because you are ordered to do something doesn't mean you 'have' to do it. That was the defense used at Nuremberg and it established a legal precedent of "following orders" not getting you off the hook for your actions.
The tone I got from your previous posts was that orders are orders and you said you would take people's guns "temporarily" at least for safety.
My assertion was that guns should only be taken from people who are being held for a criminal act (like you arrest someone for looting who has a gun) OR the personal is elderely and not in a proper state of mind.
IMO the way it should work is LEO's are out doing a patrol looking for people who need help, and stumble across a group of people who are armed but doing ok for themselves. LEO's ask if they know of anyone who needs help OR how things are going. Pleasantry's are exchanged and LEO go on their way after figuring out everyone is ok.
Understood the law was passed but whats written on paper doesn't always coincide with what actually happens.
I can't stand the process that seems to have cropped up where people are denied into an area and guns taken on the spot. People being taken out of their homes with force for their own good. I see this creeping up into the position where the rule of the badge is the supreme law in disaster areas and by de facto becomes a constitution free zone. Name it a disaster area, and its what the LEO is ordered to do not what the law says. Resist and you open yourself up for all kinds of trouble. Its not a place I want to be in...ever!
Not demeaning any LEO's here but I think the relationship between LE and citizen is important when times are tough. On the one hand I realize government can help in certain situations but I don't want certain areas becoming constitution free zones where what happens to me is decided on the spot by another person, my means of family defense stripped from me, or forcibly evicted from where all our supplies are.
Basically it boils down to the lowest common denominator rule, and thats gov treating everyone like helpless dolts who need to be "saved" whether they want it or not. Not everyone out there are old people, gang bangers OR looters.
I agree, if people want to stay in their home even after a mandatory evac, then it's their prerogative. However with that said though, if you're that guy that was told to leave and you didn't then you should forfeit the calling of 911 and asking for help. The lowest common denominator works both ways IMO.
R.
Im curious about that "mandatory evacuation".
A few months ago when Irene rolled through the east coast, my parents on the south shore of Long Island had a "mandatory evacuation" order. Nobody left, and my parents explained to me that all that meant was that if you choose to stay, don't expect help to come for you in the middle of the storm.
It isnt MANDATORY, it just means first responders won't risk their lives coming to save you if you choose to stay. That to me is fine, I wouldnt expect anyone to come help you if you choose to stay through something real bad (Irene was a total bust for LI anyway, barely more than a thunderstorm).
How can the government REQUIRE you to leave your own property? BS if you ask me...thats not what this country is about
Belmont31R
12-03-11, 17:32
I agree, if people want to stay in their home even after a mandatory evac, then it's their prerogative. However with that said though, if you're that guy that was told to leave and you didn't then you should forfeit the calling of 911 and asking for help. The lowest common denominator works both ways IMO.
R.
It should be 'we'll help if we can but there are not any guarantees.'
I think gov programs like NOAA and NHC are actually good government programs and they do issue warnings as best as they can. They actually serve a broad public purpose.
If people want to stay, then, no, they shouldn't be calling for an evac when they have 5ft of water in their house and nowhere to go. In that case then its not a duty of LE or any other responders to help the person. That was my point earlier, that LEO (or FF or EMS types) have no duty to save any one person. They serve the public at large not individuals. Therefore they should not be going around busting into people's houses and carting them off + taking their guns in an attempt to "save" them. I also don't think the BOR gets suspended just because bad weather hits a certain area.
QuietShootr
12-03-11, 17:55
H.R. 5013, the “Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act,” was introduced in the House by Congressman Bobby Jindal (LA - 1) and passed the House on July 25, 2006 with a broad bi-partisan margin of 322-99. Senator David Vitter (R-La) introduced the Senate version of the bill and added it as an Amendment to Homeland Security Appropriations, which passed the United States Senate by 84-16, the largest margin of victory for a NRA-backed measure. On October 9, 2006, President George W. Bush signed this legislation into law.
HR 5013 RFS
109th CONGRESS
2d Session
H. R. 5013
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
July 26, 2006
Received
August 4 (legislative day, AUGUST 3), 2006
Read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AN ACT
To amend the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act to prohibit the confiscation of firearms during certain national emergencies.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act of 2006'.
SEC. 2. FINDINGS.
Congress finds the following:
(1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution states that a `well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed', and Congress has repeatedly recognized this language as protecting an individual right.
(2) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, State and local law enforcement and public safety service organizations were overwhelmed and could not fulfill the safety needs of the citizens of the State of Louisiana.
(3) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the safety of these citizens, and of their homes and property, was threatened by instances of criminal activity.
(4) Many of these citizens lawfully kept firearms for the safety of themselves, their loved ones, their businesses, and their property, as guaranteed by the Second Amendment, and used their firearms, individually or in concert with their neighbors, for protection against crime.
(5) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, certain agencies confiscated the firearms of these citizens in contravention of the Second Amendment, depriving these citizens of the right to keep and bear arms and rendering them helpless against criminal activity.
(6) These confiscations were carried out at gunpoint by nonconsensual entries into private homes, by traffic checkpoints, by stoppage of boats, and otherwise by force.
(7) The citizens from whom firearms were confiscated were either in their own homes or attempting to flee the flooding and devastation by means of motor vehicle or boat, and were accosted, stopped, and arbitrarily deprived of their private property and means of protection.
(8) The means by which the confiscations were carried out, which included intrusion into the home, temporary detention of persons, and seizures of property, constituted unreasonable searches and seizures and deprived these citizens of liberty and property without due process of law in violation of fundamental rights under the Constitution.
(9) Many citizens who took temporary refuge in emergency housing were prohibited from storing firearms on the premises, and were thus treated as second-class citizens who had forfeited their constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
(10) At least one highly-qualified search and rescue team was prevented from joining in relief efforts because the team included individuals with firearms, although these individuals had been deputized as Federal law enforcement officers.
(11) These confiscations and prohibitions, and the means by which they were carried out, deprived the citizens of Louisiana not only of their right to keep and bear arms, but also of their rights to personal security, personal liberty, and private property, all in violation of the Constitution and laws of the United States.
SEC. 3. PROHIBITION ON CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS DURING CERTAIN NATIONAL EMERGENCIES.
Title VII of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5201) is amended by adding at the end the following:
SEC. 706. FIREARMS POLICIES.
(a) Prohibition on Confiscation of Firearms- No officer or employee of the United States (including any member of the uniformed services), or person operating pursuant to or under color of Federal law, or receiving Federal funds, or under control of any Federal official, or providing services to such an officer, employee, or other person, while acting in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency, may--
(1) temporarily or permanently seize, or authorize seizure of, any firearm the possession of which is not prohibited under Federal, State, or local law, other than for forfeiture in compliance with Federal law or as evidence in a criminal investigation;
(2) require registration of any firearm for which registration is not required by Federal, State, or local law;
(3) prohibit possession of any firearm, or promulgate any rule, regulation, or order prohibiting possession of any firearm, in any place or by any person where such possession is not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State, or local law; or
(4) prohibit the carrying of firearms by any person otherwise authorized to carry firearms under Federal, State, or local law, solely because such person is operating under the direction, control, or supervision of a Federal agency in support of relief from the major disaster or emergency.
(b) Limitation- Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit any person from requiring the temporary surrender of a firearm as a condition for entry into any mode of transportation used for rescue or evacuation during a major disaster or emergency.
(c) Private Rights of Action-
(1) IN GENERAL- Any individual aggrieved by a violation of this section may seek relief in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress against any person who subjects such individual, or causes such individual to be subjected, to the deprivation of any of the rights, privileges, or immunities secured by this section.
(2) REMEDIES- In addition to any existing remedy in law or equity, under any law, an individual aggrieved by the seizure or confiscation of a firearm in violation of this section may bring an action for return of such firearm in the United States district court in the district in which that individual resides or in which such firearm may be found.
(3) ATTORNEY FEES- In any action or proceeding to enforce this section, the court shall award
the prevailing party, other than the United States, a reasonable attorney's fee as part of the costs.'.
Passed the House of Representatives July 25, 2006.
**********************************************************************************
So whats the problems here?
We are talking 2nd Amendment rights here correct?
This is what I would follow to the letter!
Maybe I missed something?
I think you're playing word games. No, you wouldn't currently be legally ordered to confiscate guns. But - aw...
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/Indum/MalSpeechless.gif
PA PATRIOT
12-03-11, 19:06
I think you're playing word games. No, you wouldn't currently be legally ordered to confiscate guns. But - aw...
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a105/Indum/MalSpeechless.gif
Its what ever you wish to believe as I have no duty to convince you either way. It is up to the individual to decide what they deem as just or unjust. I take no interest in internet opinions as to my dedication or my service as I have never had a single individual claim I ever violated their civil rights in over 25 yrs as a LEO in a major city dealing with thousands of people.
My Conscience is clear on this issue.
Its what ever you wish to believe as I have no duty to convince you either way. It is up to the individual to decide what they deem as just or unjust. I take no interest in internet opinions as to my dedication or my service as I have never had a single individual claim I ever violated their civil rights in over 25 yrs as a LEO in a major city dealing with thousands of people.
My Conscience is clear on this issue.
I respect your opinion and what you've voiced here and I think everyone else should as well. I honestly believe you're an asset to the forum and have contributed lots of helpful insight and advice throughout many threads and hope that you continue to do so.
Everyone, let's focus on the thread and the current predicament rather than dogpiling and dissecting everything Phila has offered up.
Logicalpath
12-04-11, 00:32
In Florida this is a completely false assertion. If you carry a gun you really really need to know the laws and stay abreast of changes. You can't hesitate in situations, that pause could be fatal (to you). You need to act with confidence and decisiveness, quickly, and knowing the law inside and out of where you live will help to do so.
Do you have any resource you utilize to stay up on these specific Florida laws?
Logicalpath
12-04-11, 01:37
I'm not even kidding when I say I could step out onto the deck of my house (Wy) and shoot a deer about 3/4 of the year and I live in town!
Neighbors actually get out of their cars and help you when you are stuck in the snow, they come over with food when (not if) they hear you are sick (small town, information travels fast)
People check on elderly neighbors if there's more than one newspaper on the driveway.
Excess game meat never gets thrown away, they usually have bbq's with a knock on your door to come on over.
The sheriff will come and talk to someone if a complaint is made (had some California transplant call the sheriff on me because I was unloading my guns after a range trip, it was quite entertaining when the Cali-tard stood on his porch to "watch me get arrested". Instead, the sheriff shook my hand and sat on my tailgate while we bullshitted. hehe)
Wyoming is about the nicest place I know of, and it helps that it's a 100 miles from anywhere between towns, believe it or not. We are fairly insulated from the idiots in that regard.
What does a couple of acres run out there?
Honestly... the problem starts at the word "executive". Sovereign states my ass.
Logicalpath
12-04-11, 02:23
H.R. 5013, the “Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act,” was introduced in the House by Congressman Bobby Jindal (LA - 1) and passed the House on July 25, 2006 with a broad bi-partisan margin of 322-99. Senator David Vitter (R-La) introduced the Senate version of the bill and added it as an Amendment to Homeland Security Appropriations, which passed the United States Senate by 84-16, the largest margin of victory for a NRA-backed measure. On October 9, 2006, President George W. Bush signed this legislation into law.
HR 5013 RFS
109th CONGRESS
2d Session
H. R. 5013
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
July 26, 2006
Received
August 4 (legislative day, AUGUST 3), 2006
Read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AN ACT
To amend the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act to prohibit the confiscation of firearms during certain national emergencies.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act of 2006'.
SEC. 2. FINDINGS.
Congress finds the following:
(1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution states that a `well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed', and Congress has repeatedly recognized this language as protecting an individual right.
(2) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, State and local law enforcement and public safety service organizations were overwhelmed and could not fulfill the safety needs of the citizens of the State of Louisiana.
(3) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the safety of these citizens, and of their homes and property, was threatened by instances of criminal activity.
(4) Many of these citizens lawfully kept firearms for the safety of themselves, their loved ones, their businesses, and their property, as guaranteed by the Second Amendment, and used their firearms, individually or in concert with their neighbors, for protection against crime.
(5) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, certain agencies confiscated the firearms of these citizens in contravention of the Second Amendment, depriving these citizens of the right to keep and bear arms and rendering them helpless against criminal activity.
(6) These confiscations were carried out at gunpoint by nonconsensual entries into private homes, by traffic checkpoints, by stoppage of boats, and otherwise by force.
(7) The citizens from whom firearms were confiscated were either in their own homes or attempting to flee the flooding and devastation by means of motor vehicle or boat, and were accosted, stopped, and arbitrarily deprived of their private property and means of protection.
(8) The means by which the confiscations were carried out, which included intrusion into the home, temporary detention of persons, and seizures of property, constituted unreasonable searches and seizures and deprived these citizens of liberty and property without due process of law in violation of fundamental rights under the Constitution.
(9) Many citizens who took temporary refuge in emergency housing were prohibited from storing firearms on the premises, and were thus treated as second-class citizens who had forfeited their constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
(10) At least one highly-qualified search and rescue team was prevented from joining in relief efforts because the team included individuals with firearms, although these individuals had been deputized as Federal law enforcement officers.
(11) These confiscations and prohibitions, and the means by which they were carried out, deprived the citizens of Louisiana not only of their right to keep and bear arms, but also of their rights to personal security, personal liberty, and private property, all in violation of the Constitution and laws of the United States.
SEC. 3. PROHIBITION ON CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS DURING CERTAIN NATIONAL EMERGENCIES.
Title VII of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5201) is amended by adding at the end the following:
SEC. 706. FIREARMS POLICIES.
(a) Prohibition on Confiscation of Firearms- No officer or employee of the United States (including any member of the uniformed services), or person operating pursuant to or under color of Federal law, or receiving Federal funds, or under control of any Federal official, or providing services to such an officer, employee, or other person, while acting in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency, may--
(1) temporarily or permanently seize, or authorize seizure of, any firearm the possession of which is not prohibited under Federal, State, or local law, other than for forfeiture in compliance with Federal law or as evidence in a criminal investigation;
(2) require registration of any firearm for which registration is not required by Federal, State, or local law;
(3) prohibit possession of any firearm, or promulgate any rule, regulation, or order prohibiting possession of any firearm, in any place or by any person where such possession is not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State, or local law; or
(4) prohibit the carrying of firearms by any person otherwise authorized to carry firearms under Federal, State, or local law, solely because such person is operating under the direction, control, or supervision of a Federal agency in support of relief from the major disaster or emergency.
(b) Limitation- Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit any person from requiring the temporary surrender of a firearm as a condition for entry into any mode of transportation used for rescue or evacuation during a major disaster or emergency.
(c) Private Rights of Action-
(1) IN GENERAL- Any individual aggrieved by a violation of this section may seek relief in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress against any person who subjects such individual, or causes such individual to be subjected, to the deprivation of any of the rights, privileges, or immunities secured by this section.
(2) REMEDIES- In addition to any existing remedy in law or equity, under any law, an individual aggrieved by the seizure or confiscation of a firearm in violation of this section may bring an action for return of such firearm in the United States district court in the district in which that individual resides or in which such firearm may be found.
(3) ATTORNEY FEES- In any action or proceeding to enforce this section, the court shall award
the prevailing party, other than the United States, a reasonable attorney's fee as part of the costs.'.
Passed the House of Representatives July 25, 2006.
**********************************************************************************
So whats the problems here?
We are talking 2nd Amendment rights here correct?
This is what I would follow to the letter!
Maybe I missed something?
I've read the law myself and I would ask you as an LEO, do you see any holes or any ambiguity that could be used to circumvent it?
Logicalpath
12-04-11, 02:31
Understood the law was passed but whats written on paper doesn't always coincide with what actually happens.
My position is that the above statement should speak for itself. A law was written well before Hurricane Katrina making weapon confiscation unlawful...THE SECOND AMENDMENT! It's unfortunate but the truth is that it's treated like a relic and dismissed off-hand these days.
Just a Jarhead
12-04-11, 04:33
Do you have any resource you utilize to stay up on these specific Florida laws?
Bookmark this page. There's one for every state. Delete Florida at the end of the address and change to the state you want to look up.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/florida.pdf
Page 12 of 12 list all recent updates & changes as they occur.
My position is that the above statement should speak for itself. A law was written well before Hurricane Katrina making weapon confiscation unlawful...THE SECOND AMENDMENT! It's unfortunate but the truth is that it's treated like a relic and dismissed off-hand these days.
When State leaders declare state of national emergency and or martial law goes into effect, does the referenced law become overridden? I see no mention of this law upholding under those conditions.
VooDoo6Actual
12-04-11, 10:21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7tavj7Jhko&feature=youtu.be
[QUOTE=Cobra66;1157216]I would be interested in finding the actual penal code here. This is interesting as the state has strongly advocated at least a 1 week supply of food.
I did try to find the penal code online, with no luck. I am LDS and was working with other church members in my area (Sonoma County) on emergency preparedness in 1998 when this law was enacted and first brought to my attention by a local attorney. We decided the best approach was to QUIETLY continue preparing a years worth of food storage and worry about legal repercussions when the time came. The worst case scenario, we decided, would be during martial law when the government can confiscate anything it wants, as it did the property of citizens of Japanese descent (without compensation) during WWII. Much of Silicon Valley, Cupertino, etc was once owned by Japanese farmers producing flowers and veggies, BTW. In any case, I have not been able to find the penal code with a web search. There a legal databases that could find it quickly, but I do not have access.
There are so many strange laws on the books that there is very little one can do that cannot be construed as illegal. Until recently, it was illegal in Utah to shoot Indians while riding in a moving stagecoach. Very narrow-minded.
Moose-Knuckle
12-05-11, 02:31
It would appear China's leadership is worried about an economic collapse and it's aftermath as well. . .
China leader warns about unrest due to economy
http://news.yahoo.com/china-leader-warns-unrest-due-economy-074137361.html
VooDoo6Actual
12-05-11, 13:47
KYPD ?
I would be interested in learning that section of the PC in California KYPD.
I asked a LAPD Vet today of that "LAW" & he was not aware of such a law on the books. He did have a somewhat interesting response which was that "Anal Sex was still considered illegal in the South"....
Which I thought was an interesting response from a Patrol officer.
I also researched Google and Penal Code in California & got nada.
TIA
Interested in this as well in case you missed it.
It would appear China's leadership is worried about an economic collapse and it's aftermath as well. . .
China leader warns about unrest due to economy
http://news.yahoo.com/china-leader-warns-unrest-due-economy-074137361.html
That's three major countries I've heard of doing that now, China, the UK and France.
Seems the US leadership is the only one not warning their citizens of this. Odd...
It's smoke & mirrors time in DC. As we all watch the economy implode, a cabal of R's & D's in the Congress have inserted, into the 2012 Defense Authorization Act, a section that will REPEAL PARTS OF THE POSSE COMITATUS ACT. What is missing is the same exemption for these actions, for citizens, that is listed in sec.1032 of the same bill. The President has vowed to veto the bill, however the NDAA is a sacred cow and Presidents don't veto them if they want to get re-elected. The Udall Amend. tried to repeal this section but it failed. This is a double edged sword, politically. No veto and they've repealed Posse Comitatus, veto and the R nominee will claim the D's hate the troops, which is a lie. So here is the text of this catch-22...
Section 1031 of the 2012 NDAA states:
SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.
(a) IN GENERAL.— Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107–40) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.
(b) COVERED PERSONS.— A covered person under this section is any person as follows:
(1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.
(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.
(c) DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR.— The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection
(a) may include the following:
(1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(2) Trial under chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code (as amended by the Military Commissions Act of 2009 (title XVIII of Public Law 111– 84)).
(3) Transfer for trial by an alternative court or competent tribunal having lawful jurisdiction.
(4) Transfer to the custody or control of the person’s country of origin, any other foreign country, or any other foreign entity.
(d) CONSTRUCTION.— Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(e) REQUIREMENT FOR BRIEFINGS OF CONGRESS.— The Secretary of Defense shall regularly brief Congress regarding the application of the authority described in this section, including the organizations, entities, and individuals considered to be ‘‘covered persons’’ for purposes of subsection (b)(2).
KYPD ?
Interested in this as well in case you missed it.
Please see my previous post in quotations below.
"
I did try to find the penal code online, with no luck. I am LDS and was working with other church members in my area (Sonoma County) on emergency preparedness in 1998 when this law was enacted and first brought to my attention by a local attorney. We decided the best approach was to QUIETLY continue preparing a years worth of food storage and worry about legal repercussions when the time came. The worst case scenario, we decided, would be during martial law when the government can confiscate anything it wants, as it did the property of citizens of Japanese descent (without compensation) during WWII. Much of Silicon Valley, Cupertino, etc was once owned by Japanese farmers producing flowers and veggies, BTW. In any case, I have not been able to find the penal code with a web search. There a legal databases that could find it quickly, but I do not have access.
There are so many strange laws on the books that there is very little one can do that cannot be construed as illegal. Until recently, it was illegal in Utah to shoot Indians while riding in a moving stagecoach. Very narrow-minded. "
VooDoo6Actual
12-05-11, 23:52
There are so many strange laws on the books that there is very little one can do that cannot be construed as illegal. Until recently, it was illegal in Utah to shoot Indians while riding in a moving stagecoach. Very narrow-minded. "
Indeed.
Glenn Beck yesterday on barack obama's reelection -
"Something is not right. They're too laid back to really be concerned about it. They know something that we don't know. Do they know something is coming? Do they know something is going to happen that will change the dynamics of the election? I contend yes. Is global war coming? Are we in the setup for it now? I contend yes, and we are on the wrong side."
They don't really need to be concerned. The Republicans and MSM have done an excellent job of chewing up and spitting out any candidate who polls well. I believe I've also read that Obama's war chest is well stocked for the upcoming election spending war.
Once a single Republican candidate consistently polls well and the community gets behind him or her I bet we'll see the Democrats start weighing in heavily on the election politics.
You can look at it like that or you can look at barack obama and see that he's a puppet of America's enemies and he's serving their purpose which is to bring us down. Everything he's done has moved us further away from our foundation and closer to unrest and war.
H.R. 5013, the “Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act,” was introduced in the House by Congressman Bobby Jindal (LA - 1) and passed the House on July 25, 2006 with a broad bi-partisan margin of 322-99. Senator David Vitter (R-La) introduced the Senate version of the bill and added it as an Amendment to Homeland Security Appropriations, which passed the United States Senate by 84-16, the largest margin of victory for a NRA-backed measure. On October 9, 2006, President George W. Bush signed this legislation into law.
HR 5013 RFS
109th CONGRESS
2d Session
H. R. 5013
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
July 26, 2006
Received
August 4 (legislative day, AUGUST 3), 2006
Read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AN ACT
To amend the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act to prohibit the confiscation of firearms during certain national emergencies.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act of 2006'.
SEC. 2. FINDINGS.
Congress finds the following:
(1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution states that a `well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed', and Congress has repeatedly recognized this language as protecting an individual right.
(2) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, State and local law enforcement and public safety service organizations were overwhelmed and could not fulfill the safety needs of the citizens of the State of Louisiana.
(3) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the safety of these citizens, and of their homes and property, was threatened by instances of criminal activity.
(4) Many of these citizens lawfully kept firearms for the safety of themselves, their loved ones, their businesses, and their property, as guaranteed by the Second Amendment, and used their firearms, individually or in concert with their neighbors, for protection against crime.
(5) In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, certain agencies confiscated the firearms of these citizens in contravention of the Second Amendment, depriving these citizens of the right to keep and bear arms and rendering them helpless against criminal activity.
(6) These confiscations were carried out at gunpoint by nonconsensual entries into private homes, by traffic checkpoints, by stoppage of boats, and otherwise by force.
(7) The citizens from whom firearms were confiscated were either in their own homes or attempting to flee the flooding and devastation by means of motor vehicle or boat, and were accosted, stopped, and arbitrarily deprived of their private property and means of protection.
(8) The means by which the confiscations were carried out, which included intrusion into the home, temporary detention of persons, and seizures of property, constituted unreasonable searches and seizures and deprived these citizens of liberty and property without due process of law in violation of fundamental rights under the Constitution.
(9) Many citizens who took temporary refuge in emergency housing were prohibited from storing firearms on the premises, and were thus treated as second-class citizens who had forfeited their constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
(10) At least one highly-qualified search and rescue team was prevented from joining in relief efforts because the team included individuals with firearms, although these individuals had been deputized as Federal law enforcement officers.
(11) These confiscations and prohibitions, and the means by which they were carried out, deprived the citizens of Louisiana not only of their right to keep and bear arms, but also of their rights to personal security, personal liberty, and private property, all in violation of the Constitution and laws of the United States.
SEC. 3. PROHIBITION ON CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS DURING CERTAIN NATIONAL EMERGENCIES.
Title VII of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5201) is amended by adding at the end the following:
SEC. 706. FIREARMS POLICIES.
(a) Prohibition on Confiscation of Firearms- No officer or employee of the United States (including any member of the uniformed services), or person operating pursuant to or under color of Federal law, or receiving Federal funds, or under control of any Federal official, or providing services to such an officer, employee, or other person, while acting in support of relief from a major disaster or emergency, may--
(1) temporarily or permanently seize, or authorize seizure of, any firearm the possession of which is not prohibited under Federal, State, or local law, other than for forfeiture in compliance with Federal law or as evidence in a criminal investigation;
(2) require registration of any firearm for which registration is not required by Federal, State, or local law;
(3) prohibit possession of any firearm, or promulgate any rule, regulation, or order prohibiting possession of any firearm, in any place or by any person where such possession is not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State, or local law; or
(4) prohibit the carrying of firearms by any person otherwise authorized to carry firearms under Federal, State, or local law, solely because such person is operating under the direction, control, or supervision of a Federal agency in support of relief from the major disaster or emergency.
(b) Limitation- Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit any person from requiring the temporary surrender of a firearm as a condition for entry into any mode of transportation used for rescue or evacuation during a major disaster or emergency.
(c) Private Rights of Action-
(1) IN GENERAL- Any individual aggrieved by a violation of this section may seek relief in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress against any person who subjects such individual, or causes such individual to be subjected, to the deprivation of any of the rights, privileges, or immunities secured by this section.
(2) REMEDIES- In addition to any existing remedy in law or equity, under any law, an individual aggrieved by the seizure or confiscation of a firearm in violation of this section may bring an action for return of such firearm in the United States district court in the district in which that individual resides or in which such firearm may be found.
(3) ATTORNEY FEES- In any action or proceeding to enforce this section, the court shall award
the prevailing party, other than the United States, a reasonable attorney's fee as part of the costs.'.
Passed the House of Representatives July 25, 2006.
**********************************************************************************
So whats the problems here?
We are talking 2nd Amendment rights here correct?
This is what I would follow to the letter!
Maybe I missed something?
Maybe this has already been discussed but this bill actually didn't pass, right?
From the summary page for this bill - http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-5013 - :
"This bill never became law. This bill was proposed in a previous session of Congress. Sessions of Congress last two years, and at the end of each session all proposed bills and resolutions that haven't passed are cleared from the books. Members often reintroduce bills that did not come up for debate under a new number in the next session."
Looks like it passed the House but never passed the Senate.
Add to it protections under martial law.
VooDoo6Actual
12-06-11, 11:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IxnNWZu-Ak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KAj8O8qes&feature=related
Glenn Beck yesterday on barack obama's reelection -
"Something is not right. They're too laid back to really be concerned about it. They know something that we don't know. Do they know something is coming? Do they know something is going to happen that will change the dynamics of the election? I contend yes. Is global war coming? Are we in the setup for it now? I contend yes, and we are on the wrong side."
A SWAT policeman keeps telling me martial law will be declared and the elections will be cancelled. I hope he is full of BS.
Add to it protections under martial law.
What protections?
I should have been more clear.
What I mean is to expand this bill to offer these protections under a declaration of martial law instead of just in a disaster zone or related state of emergency.
….Until recently, it was illegal in Utah to shoot Indians while riding in a moving stagecoach. Very narrow-minded. "
So you're saying this is no longer illegal?? :D:D:D
So you're saying this is no longer illegal?? :D:D:D
lol :p
Moose-Knuckle
12-06-11, 14:45
Glenn Beck yesterday on barack obama's reelection -
"Something is not right. They're too laid back to really be concerned about it. They know something that we don't know. Do they know something is coming? Do they know something is going to happen that will change the dynamics of the election? I contend yes. Is global war coming? Are we in the setup for it now? I contend yes, and we are on the wrong side."
I firmly believe that we have not had "free" elections in the country in more than a century. Our Presidents are selected in their early twenties and groomed from then in the Ivy leagues and secret societies; Skull & Bones, Bohemian Grove, and so on. They already know who is going to "win" before hand, it's just this POTUS and his wife are more obvious and arrogant about it.
All the election season hype is just smoke and mirrors. Nothing more than a distraction.
Back to Civil Unrest. . . :fie:
Couple badly injured after naked bodybuilder attack
http://news.yahoo.com/couple-badly-injured-bodybuilder-attack-032149667.html
PA PATRIOT
12-06-11, 15:21
Maybe this has already been discussed but this bill actually didn't pass, right?
From the summary page for this bill - http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-5013 - :
"This bill never became law. This bill was proposed in a previous session of Congress. Sessions of Congress last two years, and at the end of each session all proposed bills and resolutions that haven't passed are cleared from the books. Members often reintroduce bills that did not come up for debate under a new number in the next session."
Looks like it passed the House but never passed the Senate.
H.R. 5013, the “Disaster Recovery Personal Protection Act,” was introduced in the House by Congressman Bobby Jindal (LA - 1) and passed the House on July 25, 2006 with a broad bi-partisan margin of 322-99. Senator David Vitter (R-La) introduced the Senate version of the bill and added it as an Amendment to Homeland Security Appropriations, which passed the United States Senate by 84-16, the largest margin of victory for a NRA-backed measure. On October 9, 2006, President George W. Bush signed this legislation into law.
PA PATRIOT
12-06-11, 15:34
Add to it protections under martial law.
It would never happen as Martial Law will suspend almost all liberties ensured by the Constitution,
Martial law is the imposition of military rule by military authorities over designated regions on an emergency basis—(usually) only temporary—when the civilian government or civilian authorities fail to function effectively (e.g., maintain order and security, and provide essential services), when there are extensive riots and protests, or when the disobedience of the law becomes widespread. In most cases, military forces are deployed to quiet the crowds, to secure government buildings and key or sensitive locations, and to maintain order. Generally, military personnel replace civil authorities and perform some or all of their functions. The constitution could be suspended, and in full-scale martial law, the highest-ranking military officer would take over, or be installed, as the military governor or as head of the government, thus removing all power from the previous executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government.
Martial law can be used by governments to enforce their rule over the public. Such incidents may occur after a coup d'état (Thailand 2006); when threatened by popular protest (China, Tiananmen Square protests of 1989); to suppress political opposition (Poland in 1981); to stabilize insurrections or perceived insurrections (Canada, The October Crisis of 1970). Martial law may be declared in cases of major natural disasters, however most countries use a different legal construct, such as a "state of emergency".
Martial law has also been imposed during conflicts and in cases of occupations, where the absence of any other civil government provides for an unstable population. Examples of this form of military rule include post World War II reconstruction in Germany and Japan as well as the southern reconstruction following the U.S. Civil War.
Typically, the imposition of martial law accompanies curfews, the suspension of civil law, civil rights, habeas corpus, and the application or extension of military law or military justice to civilians. Civilians defying martial law may be subjected to military tribunal (court-martial).
The martial law concept in the U.S. is closely tied with the right of habeas corpus, which is in essence the right to a hearing on lawful imprisonment, or more broadly, the supervision of law enforcement by the judiciary. The ability to suspend habeas corpus is often equated with martial law.[citation needed] Article 1, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution states, "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."
In United States law, martial law is limited by several court decisions that were handed down between the American Civil War and World War II. In 1878, Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids military involvement in domestic law enforcement without congressional approval. On October 1, 2002 United States Northern Command was established to provide command and control of Department of Defense homeland defense efforts and to coordinate defense support of civil authorities.
The National Guard is an exception, since unless federalized, they are under the control of state governors. This was changed briefly: Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122), was signed by President Bush on October 17, 2006, and allowed the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities. Title V, Subtitle B, Part II, Section 525(a) of the JWDAA of 2007 reads "The [military] Secretary [of the Army, Navy or Air Force] concerned may order a member of a reserve component under the Secretary's jurisdiction to active duty...The training or duty ordered to be performed...may include...support of operations or missions undertaken by the member's unit at the request of the President or Secretary of Defense." The President signed the Defense Authorization Act of 2008 on January 13, 2008. However, Section 1068 in the enacted 2008 defense authorization bill (H.R. 4986: "National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008") repealed this section of PL 109-364.
By explaining what martial law is and what it has been in the past, you have not de-seated my proposition of what it could be in the future. In the snippet you posted there is a paragraph explaining limitations to martial law. Expand the bill to incorporate these protections to people and firearms in a state of martial law as well as a state of disaster. Why is this not possible?
Back to Civil Unrest. . . :fie:
Couple badly injured after naked bodybuilder attack
http://news.yahoo.com/couple-badly-injured-bodybuilder-attack-032149667.html
Note to self... When you get home and there's a 300lb, naked weightlifter on your front porch call 911.
Russia is a boiling cauldron of shit that's about to run over in the near future. Other nasty stuff in the news today...
80 year old priest severely beaten in rectory. Who the **** beats up an old priest? http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/12/06/80-year-old-priest-severely-beaten-in-rectory/
Greeks emptying bank accounts. As the economic crisis worsens I would suggest you think about doing the same before it's too late. Not to panic anyone and there is time but it will come to this. http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,802051,00.html
China's Prez tells Navy to prepare for combat with U.S. http://news.yahoo.com/chinas-hu-urges-navy-prepare-combat-160509787.html
North Korea building ICBM's. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/dec/5/north-korea-making-missile-able-to-hit-us/
Toilet paper rationing in Spain. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/8938470/Toilet-paper-restrictions-imposed-on-schoolchildren-in-Spain-in-latest-austerity-cuts.html
Woman denied foodstamps kills children and self. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/woman-denied-food-stamps-kills-self-shoots-children-181629410.html
Woman kills friend and leaves her under Christmas presents. http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2011/12/05/woman-accused-of-leaving-dead-friends-body-under-christmas-presents/
Irish,
You always have the best posts. Your ability to help me put my troubles in perspective is amazing. Thank you.
Moltke - I'm glad you like them and you're welcome. Stay safe.
It's just nice not to wake up dead under a Christmas tree. Sometimes you have to appreciate the little things.
It's just nice not to wake up dead under a Christmas tree. Sometimes you have to appreciate the little things.
Like toilet paper!
Nathan_Bell
12-07-11, 07:38
Zombies get hosed by FDNY
http://www.silive.com/northshore/index.ssf/2011/12/9_arrests_in_staten_island_inc.html
Zombies get hosed by FDNY
http://www.silive.com/northshore/index.ssf/2011/12/9_arrests_in_staten_island_inc.html
That school district just needs more money... that's why these kids are frustrated :rolleyes:
Zombies get hosed by FDNY
http://www.silive.com/northshore/index.ssf/2011/12/9_arrests_in_staten_island_inc.html
9 arrested for that incident, which will be more frequent in the future, and 9 college zombie students suspended for the beating of a fellow student over a pair of Nike shoes. (VIDEO) http://boston.cbslocal.com/2011/12/06/dean-college-students-suspended-after-beating-video-surfaces-online/
The police are preparing. http://www.theagitator.com/2011/12/06/from-warfighter-to-crimefighter/
According to a periodical by the government office in charge of equipping law enforcement agencies with surplus military gear, Fiscal Year 2011 was a record year in property transfers from the US military’s stockpiles to police departments around the nation. The transfers took place under a program that explicitly allows law enforcement agencies to acquire such goods for free. In FY2011, the value of these acquisitions amounted to half-a-billion dollars.
Just because I posted it doesn't mean I'm in favor of it. I think our police are far too militarized as it is and they don't need to be using equipment that's designed for killing our enemies and terrorists on American citizens.
PA PATRIOT
12-07-11, 17:43
The police are preparing. http://www.theagitator.com/2011/12/06/from-warfighter-to-crimefighter/
Just because I posted it doesn't mean I'm in favor of it. I think our police are far too militarized as it is and they don't need to be using equipment that's designed for killing our enemies and terrorists on American citizens.
Most of the Mid 1960's vintage AR-15/M-16 rifles which coming from the Government program are being utilized as in vehicle patrol rifles for officers so to be on a equal footing with heavy armed Criminals/Gangs.
I have to say I think that every officer should have a issued rifle and shotgun to protect them selfs in such situations. Police are increasing encountering heavily armed individuals and are being killed because they do not have the proper arms to defend their self.
The police like any other American citizen should have the same right to self defense and not be handicapped in any way as long as there actions are reasonable and legal.
Most of the Mid 1960's vintage AR-15/M-16 rifles which coming from the Government program are being utilized as in vehicle patrol rifles for officers so to be on a equal footing with heavy armed Criminals/Gangs.
They didn't spend over $500,000,000 in 2011 alone on 1960's era AR-15's. And I'm not trying to sound like a dick but did you read the article or any of the links in it?
The police like any other American citizen should have the same right to self defense and not be handicapped in any way as long as there actions are reasonable and legal.
I agree with you 100%. However, we have over 40,000 SWAT raids per year in the U.S. and it's way out of control with tanks, grenades and innocent people being killed in the name of the almighty "War on Drugs". There were over 800 Humvees and 27 armored vehicles issued to police agencies in 2011 alone. They're getting armored APC's to patrol American streets and in my eyes that's overkill, unless you're talking Detroit. ;)
PA PATRIOT
12-07-11, 18:51
Most of the Mid 1960's vintage AR-15/M-16 rifles which coming from the Government program are being utilized as in vehicle patrol rifles for officers so to be on a equal footing with heavy armed Criminals/Gangs.
I have to say I think that every officer should have a issued rifle and shotgun to protect them selfs in such situations. Police are increasing encountering heavily armed individuals and are being killed because they do not have the proper arms to defend their self.
The police like any other American citizen should have the same right to self defense and not be handicapped in any way as long as there actions are reasonable and legal.
Irish Posted,
They didn't spend over $500,000,000 in 2011 alone on 1960's era AR-15's. And I'm not trying to sound like a dick but did you read the article or any of the links in it
Yes I did view your posted link and from what the article stated was,
The Pentagon’s 1033 program, the program by which the Defense Department transfers surplus military equipment to domestic police departments.
LESO program manager Craig Barret brags that “[FY 2011] has been a historic year for the program. We reutilized more than $500M, that is million with an M, worth of property>
Basically all the outdated or past serviceable life items which were in military storage.
Leso did not spend a dime to buy the equipment, all they did was Transfer & Reutilized Surplus to police departments who place a request for such items.
I can state as a fact the 1033 program AR-15/M-16 I have seen were in extremely used condition and dated back to the 1960's. But I have to say I would gladly take these rifles on patrol if able as they are better then having no rifle at at.
I used the wrong wording, sorry. Either way it's over half a billion dollars worth of military equipment that was allocated in 1 year. The problem being is how many swinging dicks are putting on a badge wanting to be Billy Badass SWAT Operator in their black ninja outfit instead of putting on their blues genuinely wanting to serve and protect?
Countless many little piss ant towns in America have SWAT teams and tanks for absolutely no reason other than blowing tax dollar money and playing wannabe Johnny Operator so they can get cool toys.
Sorry for the thread drift. Phila, I understand what you're saying and think police should have adequate equipment to perform their job. However, their job now consists of a lot of tactics, equipment and unnecessary militaristic attitudes and actions against American citizens.
If you'd like to continue this via PM that's fine but I'm done steering this thread off course. Have a good night.
PA PATRIOT
12-07-11, 21:38
I used the wrong wording, sorry. Either way it's over half a billion dollars worth of military equipment that was allocated in 1 year. The problem being is how many swinging dicks are putting on a badge wanting to be Billy Badass SWAT Operator in their black ninja outfit instead of putting on their blues genuinely wanting to serve and protect?
Countless many little piss ant towns in America have SWAT teams and tanks for absolutely no reason other than blowing tax dollar money and playing wannabe Johnny Operator so they can get cool toys.
Sorry for the thread drift. Phila, I understand what you're saying and think police should have adequate equipment to perform their job. However, their job now consists of a lot of tactics, equipment and unnecessary militaristic attitudes and actions against American citizens.
If you'd like to continue this via PM that's fine but I'm done steering this thread off course. Have a good night.
Not sure were your coming from with your comments but I'M willing to call a spade a spade and will not defend any LEO which would act in a unprofessional manner.
Things happen and obviously some event shaded your opinion on SWAT and other like organizations and I can respect that but I would like to say I have met SWAT members from all over the nation during different training classes spanning two decades and can honestly say they were some dedicated down to earth people who would risk their life's to save others.
As with any Job you have your stars and your POS's but I would have to disagree with making a blank statement that condemns a segment of the law enforcement community.
Now back to are regular scheduled program.
They didn't spend over $500,000,000 in 2011 alone on 1960's era AR-15's. And I'm not trying to sound like a dick but did you read the article or any of the links in it?
I agree with you 100%. However, we have over 40,000 SWAT raids per year in the U.S. and it's way out of control with tanks, grenades and innocent people being killed in the name of the almighty "War on Drugs". There were over 800 Humvees and 27 armored vehicles issued to police agencies in 2011 alone. They're getting armored APC's to patrol American streets and in my eyes that's overkill, unless you're talking Detroit. ;)
No one anywhere is patrolling the streets of the US in tanks or APCs, in fact there are no tanks that have been handed out under that program, and a very few old and out of date PCs.
No one is killing people with grenades. They aren't handing those out either.
Your tin foil hat is out of whack, you might need to get it adjusted.
Moose-Knuckle
12-08-11, 02:34
Zombies get hosed by FDNY
http://www.silive.com/northshore/index.ssf/2011/12/9_arrests_in_staten_island_inc.html
"****ing savages!" - Lt. Col. Kilgore
I think stories such as these are foreshadowing of what is coming down the pipe for us all. A group of 55 people is no small thing. The fact that they not only ignored the uniformed police but attacked them shows how brazen they are and they posses no fear of being arrested and prosecuted.
Multiple this with no law and order, days of hunger, lust for rape, etc. . .my God if they did this just to bully some poor girl at school imagine what they will do if they know you have food, drugs, weapons, women, etc.
I’m reminded of the Huns and the Mongrel hoards.
This is not the first story that has been posted in this thread about a flash mob attacking a house over a school fight. Good on FD for saving those LEOs. It would have went south quick for them had the crowd not been hit with the torrent from their fire apparatus.
9 arrested for that incident, which will be more frequent in the future, and 9 college zombie students suspended for the beating of a fellow student over a pair of Nike shoes. (VIDEO) http://boston.cbslocal.com/2011/12/0...rfaces-online/
Another unprosecuted hate crime.
No one anywhere is patrolling the streets of the US in tanks or APCs, in fact there are no tanks that have been handed out under that program, and a very few old and out of date PCs.
No one is killing people with grenades. They aren't handing those out either.
Your tin foil hat is out of whack, you might need to get it adjusted.
I had a short novel written and then my computer froze so this is the abbreviated response. Here's a few links to people who've died or been seriously injured due to the use of grenades by police. There are also many links to police departments with APC's and even tanks. Are they ever needed? Absolutely and I don't contest that but at the rate the .Gov is passing them out you'd think it's Halloween.
SWAT cop killed by grenade. http://www.thesunnews.com/2011/02/27/2006327/swat-veteran-dies-at-home-in-odd.html
Woman killed from grenade. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/29/nyregion/city-to-pay-1.6-million-in-fatal-mistaken-raid.html
Woman dies from grenade. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/12/rose-ann-santistevan-file_n_1007392.html
Grenade burns house down. http://www.news10.com/Global/story.asp?S=5865820
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/vehicle-equipment/articles/4561188-Kan-SWAT-team-gets-new-armored-vehicle/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4edk5eqxFew
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/world/north-america/police-tank-greets-occupy-crowd-tampa-florida-115
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyb9kGMaRUM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AujiWA81U
Do American's police need armored tank? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41912754/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/t/why-do-americas-police-need-armored-tank/
Police using armored vehicle in streets. http://uswgo.com/ventura-ca-police-using-armored-vehicles-in-the-streets.htm and http://www.wearechange.org/?p=9566
http://www.norcalblogs.com/post_scripts/2011/06/tanks-for-police.html
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/st-petersburg-police-chief-city-needs-armored-vehicle-like-other-law/1187370
http://articles.boston.com/2011-11-07/news/30370402_1_armored-vehicle-homeland-security-grants-police-dog
http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/carlsbad/article_bb1ffd93-63d3-540f-9cee-d46a21eccfd3.html
http://earthhopenetwork.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=2161
I'm not trying to slam on the cops and lump everyone into one category but the fact remains that the use of grenades by police kills Americans. We also have APC/tanks being deployed on American streets. There are many, many incidents of police raiding the wrong house and killing innocent people and shooting dogs for no reason as well. If you'd like I'll post plenty of links to go along with that as well.
Tinfoil hat too tight? Nope, it's called reading the news.
VA Tech - Another wingnut goes apeshit with a gun. Cop shot. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_VATECH_SHOTS_FIRED?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-12-08-13-03-39
PA PATRIOT
12-08-11, 16:15
Irish by grenades I think your referring to Flash Bangs which are a blinding, High Noise, Percussion devices which are reusable depending on brand.
Such devices can kill or serious injure but on the other side they have saved the lives of countless people when used as a distraction device to disorientate bad guys during police operations.
The numbers of those serious injured by the use of Flash Bangs are negligible and police would have to shoot a lot more bad guys if they were not used on high risk entires because those same bad guys were able to get to a weapon instead of being temporally disorientated by the device.
police would have to shoot a lot more bad guys if they were not used on high risk entires .
Fine with me, just shoot the bad guys on entry. Hell, throw in the flash bang and then shoot them anyway. It'll thin the herd of scumbags for the coming apocalypse.
Fine with me, just shoot the bad guys on entry. Hell, throw in the flash bang and then shoot them anyway. It'll thin the herd of scumbags for the coming apocalypse.
Occasionally, there are innocent bystanders inside. Hopefully with a flash bang they only get the shit scared out of them instead of being the recipient of a stray bullet.
Hell, I would like to have some flash bangs for civilian use. It would make for a helluva entrance at Christmas parties. :sarcastic:
Belmont31R
12-08-11, 17:45
Fine with me, just shoot the bad guys on entry. Hell, throw in the flash bang and then shoot them anyway. It'll thin the herd of scumbags for the coming apocalypse.
Hell to due process. Lets let government agents be defacto judge, jury, and executioner because a person is suspected or accused of a crime!
It always amazes me that on boards dedicated to guns, esp guns like AR's, there are so many people who think its cool for the government to go around executing people. :rolleyes::(
VA Tech - Another wingnut goes apeshit with a gun. Cop shot. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_VATECH_SHOTS_FIRED?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-12-08-13-03-39
I would imagine that in light of this occurrence that Va Tech will do the sensible thing and provide firearms training for all students and lift the ban on campus carry. It seems like the logical course of action to me. :no:
DeltaSierra
12-08-11, 18:02
Hell to due process. Lets let government agents be defacto judge, jury, and executioner because a person is suspected or accused of a crime!
It always amazes me that on boards dedicated to guns, esp guns like AR's, there are so many people who think its cool for the government to go around executing people. :rolleyes::(
I've never figured out that line of thought myself...
The fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States, says, in part;
"No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."
Belmont31R
12-08-11, 18:06
I've never figured out that line of thought myself...
The fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States, says, in part;
"No person shall... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."
Thats the second post made today where someone said gov should execute people on the spot.
When it comes to guns having hollow points in NJ is a crime. I guess NJ gov employees should be executing gun owners who have Gold Dot's in their HD/SD pistol. :rolleyes:
DeltaSierra
12-08-11, 18:12
Thats the second post made today where someone said gov should execute people on the spot.
When it comes to guns having hollow points in NJ is a crime. I guess NJ gov employees should be executing gun owners who have Gold Dot's in their HD/SD pistol. :rolleyes:
With the utterly stupid laws that are enforced today, I find it unimaginable that anyone could possibly think the .GOV should be able to shoot anyone without some semblance of a trial...
I haven't read the book Three Felonies a Day. but I plan to this winter... From what I understand, the average American citizen commits three felonies every day, even if they sit in a recliner all day long...
At that rate, why not just round up everyone, and execute them....:confused:
Moose-Knuckle
12-08-11, 19:12
At that rate, why not just round up everyone, and execute them....:confused:
Don't you worry, the plans are in place. . .
Those who throw out the tinfoil card readily forget about Mao’s Laogai camps, Stalin’s Gulag camps, and Hitler’s Concentration camps.
PA PATRIOT
12-08-11, 19:55
I would say Law Enforcement stands firmly behind the fifth amendment and due process of the law but the problem is that those pesky Murderer's, Rapist, Arsonists, Child Molesters, Drug Dealers and so on just wont turn them selfs in after they commit a crime.
They have the audacity to make the Police go out and arrest them and some times they like to resist and bad guys, innocents and police get hurt.
Due process starts after some one is arrested or surrenders and is charged with a crime under are current justice system.
Criminals almost never Surrender, blame them.
Belmont31R
12-08-11, 20:02
Criminals almost never Surrender, blame them.
You don't become a criminal until you are convicted in a fair court. Even then the system is prone to convicting the wrong person and if you read the threads on juries we have had here I don't put much emphasis on the process...even seeing the system first hand.
Labeling people criminals and treating them 'differently' is abhorrent.
Just this last week a former DA and now judge here had to give a press conference saying he was sorry he helped someone get sent to prison for 24 years but maintained he was just doing his job.
Its not wise to go around labeling people this or that, coming from the government, and getting away with "things" because someone pointed a finger at them and said 'they dun it!".
http://cedarparkcitizen.com/2011/11/22/former-county-district-attorney-apologizes-for-mortons-wrongful-conviction/
Are you ready for the military to lock you up unconditionally without trial and without any more than suspicious activity?
Well that's what you really need to ask yourself. Hell with this civil crap. It's getting a little too real if you ask me.
http://news.yahoo.com/senate-approves-662-billion-defense-bill-012555722.html
The legislation also would deny suspected terrorists, even U.S. citizens seized within the nation's borders, the right to trial and subject them to indefinite detention. Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., had sought an exception to the provision for U.S. citizens, but her effort failed, 55-45.
Irish by grenades I think your referring to Flash Bangs which are a blinding, High Noise, Percussion devices which are reusable depending on brand.
Actually they're classified as a destructive device under USC Title 26 Section 5845 (F). This quote is from an ATF officer's court room testimony regarding "flash bang" grenades.
Bob Barr, US Congress, Georgia (R):
Well, a gentleman by the name of Warren L. Parker, an explosives enforcement officer, Bureau of ATF, on May 11, 1994 in court, said under oath they are designed to help kill the suspect while not endangering the law enforcement officer when they're used for those purposes.
The numbers of those serious injured by the use of Flash Bangs are negligible and police would have to shoot a lot more bad guys if they were not used on high risk entires because those same bad guys were able to get to a weapon instead of being temporally disorientated by the device.
The only reason it's deemed "negligible" is due to the fact that your wife, child, relative or friend hasn't been injured or killed by their usage.
There are times when their usage is appropriate but the vast majority of times that police are used in no knock, SWAT style raids are for non-violent drug offenders. With estimates of over 50,000 SWAT raids per year I'd say that we've pushed the usage of these specialized teams past their original intent, in some circles it's known as "mission creep", and they need to be reined in.
Okie doke... Back to our originally scheduled program. ;)
...Labeling people criminals and treating them 'differently' is abhorrent.
But that is an essential part of it! Governments always dehumanize their "enemy" in order to make it easier for their agents to kill them. Think about how Americans talked (talk) about the Japs, Gooks, Hadjis, Goblins, Dirtbags, whatever...
<sarcasm mode off>
The right to due process does NOT start after the arrest, or at least it shouldn't. That kind of thinking is what breeds a state of mind where it's okay to beat the shit out of a suspect just for fun, because "due process" doesn't start until after he's been arrested.
Don't get me wrong, I know there are many true dirtbags out there who richly deserve whatever pain they get, but police should have only the same rights to use force to defend themselves or others as non-police - no more and no less. The problem is when police begin to think themselves and their lives more important than Joe Citizen. That "us vs them" mentality is dangerous for people on both sides of the badge.
PA PATRIOT
12-09-11, 07:28
The problem is when police begin to think themselves and their lives more important than Joe Citizen
I have seen just the opposite thousands of times were police disregard their own personal safety to protect or rescue Joe Citizen.
I get it most people do not like anything that regulates behavior/conduct and view law enforcement as a infringement of same.
Well all I can say is if current economic events continue to deteriorate you just might get to see the other side of society with out it.
Either way I'll be out there doing what I can at the best of my abilities.
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