View Full Version : Are you prepared for civil unrest?
Pages :
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
[
9]
Signs of the times in obama's America.
http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/OWS-Oakland-Kill-Cops.jpg
Grrrr...
I saw some little bastard with a sign like that, I'd be hard-pressed not to break his face. A friend of my father's was shot by some anarchist punk because the punk in question had just gotten out of jail and needed someone to blame. I take that bulls@#t real personally.
Voodoo_Man
01-31-12, 16:42
Do not know if this was posted already, it is worth seeing.
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j341/shevon_vspec/forum%20stuff/misc/ooak.jpg
Makes my blood boil.
Moose-Knuckle
01-31-12, 18:54
Special Forces in LA is nothing new, they "advised" at Watts in the
60's.
Also participated in/with police units "advising" at the Rodney King party in LA.
Lot's to learn from SF. More importantly a ton can be learned regarding human nature observing the rioters and activists. Patterns tactic's, habits, leadership, logistic's etc etc. All can be examined and exploited by the police and SF when the time comes.
Dirk
They were "advising" at Waco too. This all sounds fine and good BUT with the type of legislation coming out of Washington these days I for see US military action in CONUS especially if we see a collapse of our economy, pandemic, et al.
Moose-Knuckle
01-31-12, 19:05
U.S. Intel Head James Clapper on Greatest Threats in 2012
On Iran: We Don't Know If They'll Go for The Bomb, 'Concerned' About Attack on U.S.
On Terrorism: Al Qaeda 'Core' Weakening, Affiliates and Homegrown Terror Greater Threats
On Afghanistan: Taliban Still Has 'Safe Haven' in Pakistan
On North Korea: To Early to Judge New Leader, Two Nuclear Weapon Tests
On the Arab Spring: Turmoil Will 'Challenge' U.S. Influence, Terrorists Could Exploit Unrest
On the Cyber Threat to the U.S.: Governments Can't Keep Up with Technology
On Drinking Water Resources: Shortages, Floods Will Hurt U.S. National Security
http://news.yahoo.com/u-intel-head-james-clapper-greatest-threats-2012-152537144--abc-news.html
Do not know if this was posted already, it is worth seeing.
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j341/shevon_vspec/forum%20stuff/misc/ooak.jpg
Makes my blood boil.
But theyre peaceful protestors excercising their 1st amendment rights to burglarize and destroy property... Remember, they are peaceful, misunderstood 99%er's.
This is what these shit stirrers want you to believe. The truth is they are violent anarchists, who feel they are entitled.
Quick thread drift to address these statements and then let's get back on topic if possible.
I saw some little bastard with a sign like that, I'd be hard-pressed not to break his face.
And what would you say if you were arrested for assaulting a cop?
This is what these shit stirrers want you to believe. The truth is they are violent anarchists, who feel they are entitled.
Or they're police. There are plenty of other threads to whine and bitch about a bunch of dipshit hippies, wingnuts and boneheads camping in the middle of our cities. And since I'm sure you have no idea as to what I'm talking, referencing the police, I'll provide some additional material for you to read and contemplate.
Most of these "anarchists" and the violence and destruction that's shown in the media is way overhyped and is used to discredit legitimate protests as seen here from the 2009 G20. A dozen photogs snapping away as 1 person goes full retard on some windows at a bank and this would be front page news.
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4319/45623824rbswindowpa2.jpg
I know these coppers are Canadian "eh!" but the tactics are the same. Notice anything similar about what they're wearing on their feet? Coincidence?
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4273/230807shoes.jpg
Here's the video of the incident: http://youtu.be/St1-WTc1kow
Here's the Canadian Gov admitting they're cops: http://youtu.be/gAfzUOx53Rg
Coincidentally people dressed like "black bloc anarchists" run behind police lines at G20. How many undercovers are in the protest anyway?
http://youtu.be/szQK4sMN4pw
The UK version here: http://www.channel4.com/news/undercover-police-officer-was-agent-provocateur
Another video example in the UK: http://youtu.be/-GP_-9VmB54
They use the same techniques in Spain: http://roarmag.org/2011/06/riot-police-barcelona-infiltrate-protest-provoke-violence/
FBI trained agent provocateur. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9A5GCC80&show_article=1
The famous Kent State incident had an FBI agent provocateur fire the first shots which resulted in 4 people getting killed. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/04/new-light-shed-on-kent-state-killings/?page=2
Hal Turner "Valhalla" was another FBI agent provocateur and a far right-wing undercover snitch if you'd like to Google him.
The people who are causing destruction of property and mayhem are a TINY contingent of people that the media focuses on and it detracts from any sort of real issue that citizens may be protesting.
Often times police are in riot gear without badges, nametags or numbers so that they could possibly be identified later, I call bullshit. Are there wacko assholes out there dressed in black tearing shit up? It appears that there are but who are they? And you can see in many videos that the police stand back and let them do it. Some may be citizens, arrest them, and some may be cops trying to incite riots and mayhem as it does work in their favor. More crime, mayhem, looting = needing more police and gives them more laws to have more control.
I have faith that the vast majority of police are the good guys and I'm not slandering them in anyway. I'm simply trying to present facts and help educate people as to the ways of their government. YOU ARE BEING MANIPULATED.
Or they legitimately could be anarchists or folks who just want to **** shit up for everyone else. While those links you provided have some interesting points raised, not every incident is a big brother/ police state cover up.
Has it happened in the past? Maybe, I don't know. I wasnt there, I can't say for sure. Is it happening right now, with the Occupy movement? I honestly don't know.
As a Lowly beat copper, I could never see any advantage to enticing a riot on purpose. My job is to keep the peace, not kick the hornets nest. No political agenda is worth getting coppers hurt over.
My radio doesnt connect directly to the CIA/NSA/ACLU to tell me when to start smashing the hippies, planting evidence, and covering up the truth. But hey, what do I know? I just work here...
Or they legitimately could be anarchists or folks who just want to **** shit up for everyone else. While those links you provided have some interesting points raised, not every incident is a big brother/ police state cover up.
Has it happened in the past? Maybe, I don't know. I wasnt there, I can't say for sure. Is it happening right now, with the Occupy movement? I honestly don't know.
As a Lowly beat copper, I could never see any advantage to enticing a riot on purpose. My job is to keep the peace, not kick the hornets nest. No political agenda is worth getting coppers hurt over.
radio doesnt connect directly to the CIA/NSA/ACLU to tell me when to start smashing the hippies, planting evidence, and covering up the truth. But hey, what do I know? I just work here...
Anyone using the word "coppers" probably isn't a real cop. And anyone talking about the police planting evidence, lying, and intentional police brutality probably isn't a real cop either. At least not any American cop I've ever known.
As I mentioned before, the best way to stop the Marxist-led riots (and that is exactly what they are) is to charge violent offenders with felonies = B&E, aggravated assault, arson, etc., instead of treating them like misbehaving harmless kids.
p22shooter30
02-01-12, 14:53
my buddy is a cop and he says the word "copper" and he is in the us.
my buddy is a cop and he says the word "copper" and he is in the us.
Hmmmmmmmm?
As I mentioned before, the best way to stop the Marxist riots (and that is exactly what they are) is to charge violent offenders with felonies = B&E, aggravated assault, arson, etc., instead of merely slapping their hands.
And terrorism.
Wait, isn't the home grown terrorist those white, preparedness minded individuals, that has in excess of 3 weeks food, buys lots of ammo, talk about enforcing the Constitution, religion and all that profound stuff?
Oops, the OWS guys are not terrorists... :help:
I spent a number of years as a police officer and knew hundreds of police officers. We all used the word "COP", but not a one ever used the word "COPPER".
Did your police buddy also confess to telling lies on the job? Or smashing innocent hippies? Or planting evidence? No cop I ever knew did.
But hey, maybe things are different in Fargo?
Maybe the sarcasm wasn't detectable in my previous post, one of the downsides to having a conversation via text.
Round these parts, "Copper" is a very common phrase. Next time I'll just use "police officer" to avoid any confusion.
I never said anything about actually lying on the job (creative writing), smashing hippies (although it does sound like fun), or planting evidence (I like not being in prison). For any further questions, refer to point #1 in this post.
p22shooter30
02-01-12, 15:43
I spent a number of years as a police officer and knew hundreds of police officers. We all used the word "COP", but not a one ever used the word "COPPER".
Did your police buddy also confess to telling lies on the job? Or smashing innocent hippies? Or planting evidence? No cop I ever knew did.
But hey, maybe things are different in Fargo?
my buddy is down in the suburbs of minneapolis. where i grew up.
Things are different in fargo. we have a reputation of having a very corrupt police force. i think they forgot about protect and serve and lean towards harrass and bully.
And terrorism.
Wait, isn't the home grown terrorist those white, preparedness minded individuals, that has in excess of 3 weeks food, buys lots of ammo, talk about enforcing the Constitution, religion and all that profound stuff?
Oops, the OWS guys are not terrorists... :help:
Right. They're not terrorists. They're a bunch of lazy ass MF'ers with college degrees who want more free shit. "Eat the rich", "Take down the man", and all that nonsense.
Dirk Williams
02-01-12, 21:26
Gotta admire the Jewish way of handling provokers.
They ID the leaders, they then shoot them with .22's in the pelvic girdle for an instant drop reaction and ungodly pain. Like anybody else when the leadership is gone the tards seem to loose their direction.
Not to mention the leaders on the ground holding their nuts screeming for mommy. That's very very motivational.
Wasn't someone here saying that sometimes violence is in deed the solution
Dirk
Expect more of this - Thieves swarm store and steal $38k worth of goods. http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/police-group-swarms-store-steals-38k-20120201-apx
Doc Safari
02-02-12, 09:32
Expect more of this - Thieves swarm store and steal $38k worth of goods. http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/police-group-swarms-store-steals-38k-20120201-apx
What concerns me is the notion that the perps are doing this as much for the thrill as for the merchandise.
Will the day come when these same types of scumbags decide to target yours or my home with a flash mob type home invasion where they walk out with all your stuff while you watch?
What concerns me is the notion that the perps are doing this as much for the thrill as for the merchandise.
Will the day come when these same types of scumbags decide to target yours or my home with a flash mob type home invasion where they walk out with all your stuff while you watch?
I'd be so in fear for my life that I'd be watching them thru an Aimpoint.
This type of behavior sickens me.
TacMedic556
02-02-12, 13:20
SHTF Planning: 20 Lessons from the Streets of Cairo
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-shtf-planning-20-lessons-from-the-streets-of-cairo.aspx?article=3795678732G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Mac+Slavo
SHTF Planning: 20 Lessons from the Streets of Cairo
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-shtf-planning-20-lessons-from-the-streets-of-cairo.aspx?article=3795678732G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Mac+Slavo
Some great info and good reminders. Thanks!
Moose-Knuckle
02-02-12, 18:01
SHTF Planning: 20 Lessons from the Streets of Cairo
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gold-silver-shtf-planning-20-lessons-from-the-streets-of-cairo.aspx?article=3795678732G10020&redirect=false&contributor=Mac+Slavo
Good info, I always take to heart reading what others have gone through.
Dirk Williams
02-03-12, 09:29
Moose, I shared your concerns. I've personally come to the conclusion that our military leaders are as concerned as we are.
I want to believe that America is awakening to this maddness. Knowlwdge is power, exposing these bastards for what they really are is like a vampire in sun light, not going to last long once exposed to the scrutiny of Patriot American Citizens
My trigger point is when we start seeing UN troops CONUS doing policing duty's.
Dirk
This week, there has been a police strike in the state of Bahia.
So far, more than 70 people died. I do not know how far that is from normal.
However, there have been massive reports of ransacking, looting, arson, muggings, beatings, that sort of constructive behavior.
https://www.google.com/search?&q=bahia+police+strike
The Governor of Bahia, Jacques Wagner, is from the same party as President Dilma Roussef, the Partidos dos Trabalhadores (Workers Party) which is the major leftist party in Brazil. There have numerous occasion when the federal is quick to help allies and even quicker to criticeze opposition, as has been the case regarding the Pinheirinho operation.
When the strike began, Mr. Wagner was in Cuba together with Mrs. Roussef.
Pinheirinho: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2012/jan/23/brazil
DO NOT believe the reports of deaths in the operation. There have been none. This was a lie put forward by the lawyer attached to the organizers of the invasion, which are also from a leftist party.
Bad Medicine
02-07-12, 06:45
I don't want to sound like a "sovereign citizen," but isn't it funny how this stuff only happens when a liberal is in office.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/07/us-usa-fbi-extremists-idUSTRE81600V20120207
I don't want to sound like a "sovereign citizen," but isn't it funny how this stuff only happens when a liberal is in office.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/07/us-usa-fbi-extremists-idUSTRE81600V20120207
Yeah, that is not funny.
That happens when elected officials appoint those from their preferred ideological camp to positions that should be occupied by career, compentent people.
The same thing occured here, with results like the one I mentioned prior to your comment.
Update regarding Bahia, it is already past 100 deaths.
I don't want to sound like a "sovereign citizen," but isn't it funny how this stuff only happens when a liberal is in office.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/07/us-usa-fbi-extremists-idUSTRE81600V20120207
You are the enemy.
More assholes riot and fight over shoes. http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/02/06/maryland-mall-evacuated-locked-down-after-sneaker-fight/
Nathan_Bell
02-07-12, 15:16
Moose, I shared your concerns. I've personally come to the conclusion that our military leaders are as concerned as we are.
I want to believe that America is awakening to this maddness. Knowlwdge is power, exposing these bastards for what they really are is like a vampire in sun light, not going to last long once exposed to the scrutiny of Patriot American Citizens
My trigger point is when we start seeing UN troops CONUS doing policing duty's.
Dirk
Sadly I have to disagree with your first two statements.
Looking at many of the decisions made during the past 10 years of armed conflict and I do not see many leaders that 'get it'. Too many political, never even been in a combat unit let alone commanded anyone in combat, I need one more star to get the $250k per year consulting job, generals anymore. The good to brilliant leaders that we do have are buried by the overwhelming mass of politicians in uniform.
As to American waking up.. Day late and a dollar short. The past two generations have been indoctrinated from K-College that socialism is the only way to run a society, that we Americans should all become little social-democratic EUropeans with a different accent, and that profit is evil. These folks have never had any different world view, and their indoctrination at school has rendered a vast majority of them unable to even think critically enough to realize how flawed their positions are.
The Republic is dead, has been since the 16th and 17th were passed. It just took this long for it to hit its knees. Having faith that the American people will change things for the better at the voting booth is .... naive at best.
QuietShootr started a thread with this video in GD. These are the type of people you'll be facing in a civil unrest type of situation. http://youtu.be/z5MGJ87hPGw
Beat Trash
02-07-12, 17:13
Watching that video left me with a sudden urge to order more ammo.
Bad Medicine
02-07-12, 17:59
Watching that video left me with a sudden urge to order more ammo.
More ammo, more training, and jujitsu classes. Bunch of sun-human garbage, I wouldn't think twice about defending myself in a situation like that!
More ammo, more training, and jujitsu classes. Bunch of sun-human garbage, I wouldn't think twice about defending myself in a situation like that!
The advantage many of us have is that we train to aim, shoot and hit center mass with consistency and accuracy.
Most of those punks are spray and pray-ers who don't know the first thing about the trigger they're pulling.
Seeing all those AKs out there makes Level III/IV plates and a carrier a smart buy, though.
PA PATRIOT
02-07-12, 18:29
Lots of AK's, AR's a few shotguns and even a Thompson or its clone being flashed around which places patrol level Police who respond in these gang areas at great risk.
I remember reading posts here on M4Carbine that stated Police should have no need of military arms such as the AR's or APC's which were graded surplus by the DoD/U.S. Military and given to police departments all over the country.
To those who still believe that Police should not deploy such weapons I move to submit this video as Exhibit "A" to that argument.
QuietShootr started a thread with this video in GD. These are the type of people you'll be facing in a civil unrest type of situation. http://youtu.be/z5MGJ87hPGw
That's crazy.....I knew some were like that but begs to defy belief....:eek:
More ammo, more training, and jujitsu classes.
Don't let them get close enough to grapple....
Lots of AK's, AR's a few shotguns and even a Thompson or its clone being flashed around which places patrol level Police who respond in these gang areas at great risk.
Go to 31:28 in the video and see where they're "interviewing" one of the assholes wearing Level III soft armor.
Bad Medicine
02-07-12, 19:03
The advantage many of us have is that we train to aim, shoot and hit center mass with consistency and accuracy.
Most of those punks are spray and pray-ers who don't know the first thing about the trigger they're pulling.
Seeing all those AKs out there makes Level III/IV plates and a carrier a smart buy, though.
Yeah they are sneaky though a lot of those thugs were sneaky up behind nice and slow in the shadows! It's good to always be aware of your surroundings, looking over your shoulder isn't paranoia either just situational awareness.
Bad Medicine
02-07-12, 19:04
Delete
Bad Medicine
02-07-12, 19:07
Don't let them get close enough to grapple....
No worries there but you never know, I would like to talk to someone who would know, at what point could you defend yourself with a firearm? I am guessing an attorney or police officer would have a good idea.
QuietShootr
02-07-12, 19:09
No worries there but you never know, I would like to talk to someone who would know, at what point could you defend yourself with a firearm? I am guessing an attorney or police officer would have a good idea.
Are you kidding?
PA PATRIOT
02-07-12, 19:11
Go to 31:28 in the video and see where they're "interviewing" one of the assholes wearing Level III soft armor.
From the thickness I would say level II which would still be good enough to stop most issued police pistol ammunition.
I would wish that patrol rifles were in every police vehicle though out the nation but police budgets usually will not allow doing so until out gunned officers are killed in the line of duty because AR's were not available when needed.
I don't even know how to respond to that, lol. If you have to ask that question though, you've skipped quite a few steps to get to what is being discussed here.
From the thickness I would say level II which would still be good enough to stop most issued police pistol ammunition.
I would wish that patrol rifles were in every police vehicle though out the nation but police budgets usually will not allow doing so until out gunned officers are killed in the line of duty because AR's were not available when needed.
I've not seen a car without a rifle in it in my area. However, it's kind of a way of life to have a rifle handy around here, police or not.
QuietShootr
02-07-12, 19:34
Don't let them get close enough to grapple....
Never really been in a street problem, then, I take it. In what I call "My Little Gunfight" as visualized by 95% of gun board denizens, the bad guys are plainly identifiable as such, and they advertise their intentions starting at about 200 yards, giving our intrepid defender time to access his precious Vickers 1911 lovingly nestled in a vintage Ken Null holster, blade at 45 degrees, and issue a challenge to the ruffians.
If you're VERY observant and lucky you'll pick them out when they're making their approach, (profiling helps here, but by no means is the final answer) but often they're up within 20' or less when the threat becomes apparent. No, you don't want to get in a wrestling match with someone, particularly when you're carrying, because of the risk of losing your weapon, but you have to be READY to fight at bad breath distance INSTANTLY. If you get more warning, then good on you, but usually you don't.
Want to see a GOOD fight? The definition being 'a fight that is over before the loser knows it's started'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk
The shooter executes his actions with speed, surprise, and violence of action(well done, here) he picks the moment to initiate, and scores 3 hits for 3 shots fired. Note the skillful use of the fat chick as concealment (though from the looks of her, she's probably Level IIIa cover) for his draw.
Found this while looking for that one - doesn't address the argument but is ****ing hilarious anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmF0GJuHz9I&feature=related
Never really been in a street problem, then, I take it.
I should have put a smilie behind it..... :cool:
PA PATRIOT
02-07-12, 20:10
Want to see a GOOD fight? The definition being 'a fight that is over before the loser knows it's started'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk
The shooter executes his actions with speed, surprise, and violence of action(well done, here) he picks the moment to initiate, and scores 3 hits for 3 shots fired. Note the skillful use of the fat chick as concealment (though from the looks of her, she's probably Level IIIa cover) for his draw.
This was one lucky STUPID dumb shit employee who placed a child and her mother in direct danger do to his actions. I would hope he was charged with recklessly endangering another person which was the child and the woman holding her. Hopefully they sued the employee for some major cash.
This was one lucky STUPID dumb shit employee who placed a child and her mother in direct danger do to has actions. I would hope he was charged with recklessly endangering another person which was the child and the woman holding her. Hopefully they sued the employee for some major cash.
Really??? And who's to say that the BG wouldn't have blown everyone away once he got his cash?!?
Thanks to your guidance, I guess I'll think twice about drawing my weapon on anyone who is performing an ARMED robbery....unless I'm standing in the middle of an open field with nobody around for miles...then I guess it'd be ok right?
PA PATRIOT
02-07-12, 20:24
Really??? And who's to say that the BG wouldn't have blown everyone away once he got his cash?!?
Thanks to your guidance, I guess I'll think twice about drawing my weapon on anyone who is performing an ARMED robbery....unless I'm standing in the middle of an open field with nobody around for miles...then I guess it'd be ok right?
You have to be kidding, there is no way you can be serious?
The bad guy only fired in response to being fired on from viewing the video. Is the loss of some PAPER which the business is insured for worth pushing a bad tactical position and forcing a exchange of gun fire inches from a mother holding a child? I surely must have misread your post in some way as I'M sure your not suggesting that this was a wise use of force.
Belmont31R
02-07-12, 20:34
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097467/Vigilante-justice-rise-Detroit-justifiable-homicides-jump-79-cent-year.html#ixzz1lkVy5kmN
You have to be kidding, there is no way you can be serious?
The bad guy only fired in response to being fired on from viewing the video. Is the loss of some PAPER which the business is insured for worth pushing a bad tactical position and forcing a exchange of gun fire inches from a mother holding a child? I surely must have misread your post in some way as I'M sure your not suggesting that this was a wise use of force.
Phila, as soon as you are staring down a barrel of a gun, the "intent" of the person holding it (barring it being just some dumbass with bad gun handling skills) is unquestionably one of harm to you and those around you! You have no freakin clue if that guy is going to pull the trigger. Its just like someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night. They may just want to steal your TV, but then again, they may want to kill you and do God knows what to your family...you don't know! In any state worth living in, that would be a justified shooting just as the shooting shown in the video was!
Bad Medicine
02-07-12, 20:55
Are you kidding?
Yeah ignore my stupid post, I didn't think that one through!
PA PATRIOT
02-07-12, 20:59
Phila, as soon as you are staring down a barrel of a gun, the "intent" of the person holding it (barring it being just some dumbass with bad gun handling skills) is unquestionably one of harm to you and those around you! You have no freakin clue if that guy is going to pull the trigger. Its just like someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night. They may just want to steal your TV, but then again, they may want to kill you and do God knows what to your family...you don't know! In any state worth living in, that would be a justified shooting just as the shooting shown in the video was!
First no one can judge intent as it has been shown in FBI crime stats that shots fired by a bad guy is less then 2% of all armed robbery's nation wide for 2010. So there is a 98% chance that the bag guy will take the money and run.
Second the employee placed three different people in harms way by first using the casher as a human shield during the first shots fired, Then by placing the casher, child and mother directly in the line of fire as now he and the bad guy are exchanging shots.
What I'M trying to say here is the shooting may have been justified in the eyes of the law but poor judgment made a bad situation worse by endangering other people due to his extremely poor judgment.
And that poor judgment could be a crime in its self.
I have to ask you a question Ironman8 would you have taken the same action if it was your wife and child standing on the other side of the counter and you mother/sister was the casher? Would you have fired those same shots just as it appeared in the video?
Honestly Now?
I really don't think we need an armchair quarterback discussion about what the guy did there. No one is going to be convinced to change their opinion on what happened.
PA PATRIOT
02-07-12, 21:18
I really don't think we need an armchair quarterback discussion about what the guy did there. No one is going to be convinced to change their opinion on what happened.
Actually members can learn from discussion on the tactics employed in the video. I know young police officers learn by reviewing incidents which occur all over the USA and this video based on the civilian use of force can be used in the same way.
Actually members can learn from discussion on the tactics employed in the video. I know young police officers learn by reviewing incidents which occur all over the USA and this video based on the civilian use of force can be used in the same way.
If that's the route it takes, I take back my statement, and definitely agree with you. It can certainly be used as a 'teachable moment'. It just seems, especially in this thread, disagreements like this always seem to go downhill quickly.
Moose-Knuckle
02-07-12, 21:24
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097467/Vigilante-justice-rise-Detroit-justifiable-homicides-jump-79-cent-year.html#ixzz1lkVy5kmN
Good on the elderly and retired citizens of Detroit for standing in the gap and not going quietly in the night! Thanks for sharing the link.
This as they say is a clue. . .
As The Daily reports, residents in wealthier areas are also often hiring private security firms to patrol their streets in armoured trucks.
Business owners at Threat Management Group and Recon Security, which patrol neighbourhoods, said business is booming.
First no one can judge intent as it has been shown in FBI crime stats that shots fired by a bad guy is less then 2% of all armed robbery's nation wide for 2010. So there is a 98% chance that the bag guy will take the money and run.
Second the employee placed three different people in harms way by first using the casher as a human shield during the first shots fired, Then by placing the casher, child and mother directly in the line of fire as now he and the bad guy are exchanging shots.
What I'M trying to say here is the shooting may have been justified in the eyes of the law but poor judgment made a bad situation worse by endangering other people due to his extremely poor judgment.
And that poor judgment could be a crime in its self.
I have to ask you a question Ironman8 would you have taken the same action if it was your wife and child standing on the other side of the counter and you mother/sister was the casher? Would you have fired those same shots just as it appeared in the video?
Honestly Now?
First, until that statistic is 100%, I don't think I'll leave my life in the hands of some dirtbag who might decide that this is the time for that "2%".
Second, how did a bad situation go worse when the dirtbag is no longer a threat and ALL victims are safe?...I don't know about you, but I'd say that is the BEST possible outcome...
Third, I'm not going to get into this armchair commando 'I woulda done this or that' argument. I'll just leave it at this: I don't pay hundreds of dollars to train and learn the things that I do so that I can leave my life in the hands of someone who doesn't give two shits about me or my loved ones!
We can now move on with the objective of this thread....
PA PATRIOT
02-07-12, 22:49
First, until that statistic is 100%, I don't think I'll leave my life in the hands of some dirtbag who might decide that this is the time for that "2%".
Second, how did a bad situation go worse when the dirtbag is no longer a threat and ALL victims are safe?...I don't know about you, but I'd say that is the BEST possible outcome...
Third, I'm not going to get into this armchair commando 'I would done this or that' argument. I'll just leave it at this: I don't pay hundreds of dollars to train and learn the things that I do so that I can leave my life in the hands of someone who doesn't give two shits about me or my loved ones!
We can now move on with the objective of this thread....
Skill, tactics or even good judgment had nothing to do with the out come of this shooting. One can do everything completely wrong and dumb luck just happens that he or the bad guy didn't kill one of the innocents in the video.
What I dislike the most about the video is that people will view it thinking they to can place others in extreme danger by using poor judgment and tactics but as long as they get the bad guy everything is good to go and they will be viewed as some type of hero on the Error net.
But enough said and back to are regular scheduled program.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097467/Vigilante-justice-rise-Detroit-justifiable-homicides-jump-79-cent-year.html#ixzz1lkVy5kmN
Another article on the same subject: http://www.thedaily.com/page/2012/02/05/020512-news-detroit-vigilantes-1-5/
Moose-Knuckle
02-08-12, 02:13
QuietShootr started a thread with this video in GD. These are the type of people you'll be facing in a civil unrest type of situation. http://youtu.be/z5MGJ87hPGw
Superb intel, reinforces my personnel belief in high capacity boxed feeding devices.
Suddenly I have the hanker'n to invest in a NFA belt-fed. . .http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb263.gif
QuietShootr
02-08-12, 08:05
First no one can judge intent as it has been shown in FBI crime stats that shots fired by a bad guy is less then 2% of all armed robbery's nation wide for 2010. So there is a 98% chance that the bag guy will take the money and run.
Second the employee placed three different people in harms way by first using the casher as a human shield during the first shots fired, Then by placing the casher, child and mother directly in the line of fire as now he and the bad guy are exchanging shots.
What I'M trying to say here is the shooting may have been justified in the eyes of the law but poor judgment made a bad situation worse by endangering other people due to his extremely poor judgment.
And that poor judgment could be a crime in its self.
I have to ask you a question Ironman8 would you have taken the same action if it was your wife and child standing on the other side of the counter and you mother/sister was the casher? Would you have fired those same shots just as it appeared in the video?
Honestly Now?
I don't think we live on the same planet. Once you point a gun at me, I'm going to kill you if I can, because I don't know (and at that point don't care) what your intent is.
That guy did well, better than most police officers do in the same situation. 3 shots fired, 100% hits. Wanna compare stats on shots fired vs. hits from citizen shootings vs. police shootings? Hint: Right now would be a good time to quit while you're ahead.
Paraclete comes
02-08-12, 08:23
decided not to after all
Paraclete comes
02-08-12, 08:30
Philia,
Maybe your comfortable taking a gamble on what an armed man will do, with you at his mercy holding a gun. Maybe you think that an armed gunman is thinking clearly and logically enough to simply attempt an armed robbery and take the cash, having no thought at all about using the tool he is telling you or showing you he has intent to use. But not this guy! If you draw a weapon and point it at me, i believe you have the intent to use it. Seems like common sense to me, maybe youll enjoy taking a gamble on your life. you might want to hit vegas too, since your into the risky business. lol:jester:
You have to be kidding, there is no way you can be serious?
The bad guy only fired in response to being fired on from viewing the video. Is the loss of some PAPER which the business is insured for worth pushing a bad tactical position and forcing a exchange of gun fire inches from a mother holding a child? I surely must have misread your post in some way as I'M sure your not suggesting that this was a wise use of force.
Paraclete comes
02-08-12, 08:37
I really hope young police officers don't learn that bs where I live. I want someone to stand in the gap in my absence. I want men trained in and confident with the use of there firearms to do violence on behalf of my wife and all my family when they are being threatened with a pistol to the face. Not someone whos going to gamble on there lives, saying "well maybe this will be one of those times when he'll take the money and run". Because maybe they"ll be the small percentage (if indeed it is a small percentage) that decides to shoot regardless.
Imagine how dead and silly you would feel to carry a gun for self defense and the defense of loved ones; only to be gunned down because you assumed the BAD GUY HOLDING THE GUN AT YOU WOULDNT ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING BAD TO YOU! that logic to me is absurd and such thinking should be avoided like the plague. That is the type of thinking that is wrong with America.
Actually members can learn from discussion on the tactics employed in the video. I know young police officers learn by reviewing incidents which occur all over the USA and this video based on the civilian use of force can be used in the same way.
Beat Trash
02-08-12, 08:57
I would wish that patrol rifles were in every police vehicle though out the nation but police budgets usually will not allow doing so until out gunned officers are killed in the line of duty because AR's were not available when needed.
Yes, I agree. I work for an agency who's staffing is down to about 1,050 officers, in a city split into six districts. I won't mention on an open forum how many patrol rifles are available in each district. I will say that I personally own more AR's than are available to the officers in my district.
These are tough times for departments to order equipment such as patrol rifles. With that said, it's amazing how much resistance we're getting internally to permit privately owned, departmentally approved patrol rifles.
I only managed to watch about half of the you tube video. Just couldn't do the whole thing. It was interesting to be able to watch the initial three stalk the guy on the bike before the one knocked him off. It was obvious they had planned the attack out. The one approached the victim and drew his attention from the other two who each approached from opposite directions.
Food for thought if/when you see two or more approaching in an open space (like a mall parking lot) and suddenly split up.
QuietShootr
02-08-12, 09:14
Philia,
Maybe your comfortable taking a gamble on what an armed man will do, with you at his mercy holding a gun. Maybe you think that an armed gunman is thinking clearly and logically enough to simply attempt an armed robbery and take the cash, having no thought at all about using the tool he is telling you or showing you he has intent to use. But not this guy! If you draw a weapon and point it at me, i believe you have the intent to use it. Seems like common sense to me, maybe youll enjoy taking a gamble on your life. you might want to hit vegas too, since your into the risky business. lol:jester:
This. A thousand times this.
Read this closely. It may be the best thing ever posted on the internet:
While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some folks are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.
Background
First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.
The Enemy
Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.
No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.
He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.
This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.
Keep in mind many petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. Most will. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.
Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastards in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.
We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. **** their own momma.
We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.
That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.
The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.
One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody.
I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said "If I needed the money".
You
Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.
You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.
The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to is advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.
Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.
You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.
Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.
Dynamics of Encounters
Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.
If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.
Watching out is great but unfortunately many self defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.
When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.
Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.
Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirt tail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.
In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.
As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.
Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the shit out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.
The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.
When to draw
Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.
Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!
I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough mother****ers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.
Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.
Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some mother****er up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.
When to shoot
The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.
In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.
If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".
Guns and weapons
The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.
Also if you can not be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.
Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collar bone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.
Just have a gun with sure fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.
Training
We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you are having to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.
I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. He nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.
He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.
Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.
After
If it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self defense. I can't help you with that.
Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an asshole just remember wait for your attorney.
Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breath deep and get an attorney.
Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.
Worlds
We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is common place. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.
You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.
But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a home boy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.
Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.
Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.
The lesser thugs all turned on the trigger man at trial. The trigger man's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against.
QuietShootr
02-08-12, 09:32
This was one lucky STUPID dumb shit employee who placed a child and her mother in direct danger do to his actions. I would hope he was charged with recklessly endangering another person which was the child and the woman holding her. Hopefully they sued the employee for some major cash.
And my last comment on the subject:
Cops with attitudes like this are why I stay the **** away from the Eastern Megalopolis.
You have to be kidding, there is no way you can be serious?
The bad guy only fired in response to being fired on from viewing the video. Is the loss of some PAPER which the business is insured for worth pushing a bad tactical position and forcing a exchange of gun fire inches from a mother holding a child? I surely must have misread your post in some way as I'M sure your not suggesting that this was a wise use of force.
Speaking as an experienced ex-street cop, I think the armed victim did a good job. Anyone pointing a gun at me or mine is threatening to murder us and is going to get the same treatment. Money isn't the issue, taking out a potential murderer at the first good opportunity is.
Bad Medicine
02-08-12, 10:03
First, until that statistic is 100%, I don't think I'll leave my life in the hands of some dirtbag who might decide that this is the time for that "2%".
Second, how did a bad situation go worse when the dirtbag is no longer a threat and ALL victims are safe?...I don't know about you, but I'd say that is the BEST possible outcome...
Third, I'm not going to get into this armchair commando 'I woulda done this or that' argument. I'll just leave it at this: I don't pay hundreds of dollars to train and learn the things that I do so that I can leave my life in the hands of someone who doesn't give two shits about me or my loved ones!
We can now move on with the objective of this thread....
You speak volumes of truth here, thanks for posting that.
Bad Medicine
02-08-12, 10:33
This. A thousand times this.
Read this closely. It may be the best thing ever posted on the internet:
And this is awesome, I emailed what you said to my wife so she can be aware of stuff you mentioned while out in town. Chicago sucks we have heard gunfire multiple times as well as found ourselves in some shady areas! Thanks for this!
First no one can judge intent as it has been shown in FBI crime stats that shots fired by a bad guy is less then 2% of all armed robbery's nation wide for 2010. So there is a 98% chance that the bag guy will take the money and run.
Second the employee placed three different people in harms way by first using the casher as a human shield during the first shots fired, Then by placing the casher, child and mother directly in the line of fire as now he and the bad guy are exchanging shots.
What I'M trying to say here is the shooting may have been justified in the eyes of the law but poor judgment made a bad situation worse by endangering other people due to his extremely poor judgment.
And that poor judgment could be a crime in its self.
I have to ask you a question Ironman8 would you have taken the same action if it was your wife and child standing on the other side of the counter and you mother/sister was the casher? Would you have fired those same shots just as it appeared in the video?
Honestly Now?
First, the intent of the turd in this video was clearly and correctly judged by the employee. His initial judgement was that the turd's intent was to threaten the safety of everyone in the immediate vicinity by drawing his firearm. Any reasonable person should be able to come to the same conclusion. His next judgement was that no matter what the turd's ultimate goal was, he was already justified in using deadly force to end the threat that the turd created which was quickly followed by his judgement that he had the element of surprise on his side if he acted quickly and violently to the turd's threat.
Second, the employee and the three other people in the room were already in harm's way based on the actions of the turd. I don't see, after rewatching the video several times, that the employee used the cashier as a human shield when he began firing. I do see that he used her to obscure the fact from the turd that he was drawing his weapon in preparation to use it. He bought himself a fraction of a second. Clearly, the cashier, the woman, and the child were in close proximity to the weapons muzzle. They were NOT in his line of fire or they would have almost certainly been struck by one of the rounds he fired. They were not.
As an aside, the three other individuals could certainly find some unscrupulous attorney who would take their case and file it in civil court. I believe the likelihood of them winning such a case based on their assertation that the employee endangered them or traumatized them in the process of saving their lives is fairly low.
Despite what you are trying to say, the fact is that the FOUR innocent persons in the room were already in imminent danger of serious bodily harm based on the actions of the turd. The quickly calculated response by one of those persons is what ended the threat of the aforementioned imminent threat to all of them.
Finally, inasmuch as is appropriate, I believe we should all try to stick to facts as much as possible and leave hypotheticals out of the equation unless we are posting in a "What would you do if..." thread.
Respectfully, Lobo
This was one lucky STUPID dumb shit employee who placed a child and her mother in direct danger do to his actions. I would hope he was charged with recklessly endangering another person which was the child and the woman holding her. Hopefully they sued the employee for some major cash.
I get it that you are a LEO and do not like this stuff. You also have to be very aware of getting sued because that is what people like to do these days....get free money.
You need to look at it from a different point of view. If more people would take care of business there would be less crime. It is like the old saying; " An armed society is a polite society". Most of the scum would not do stuff like that if they knew that everyone was going to shoot at them if they tried that stuff. Yes I agree that it could also go the other way, the scum would just start to shoot first.....but the vast majority of the scum do not want to escalate it to that. Even if they did then it would just force the rest of us to be even more vigilant.
Not trying to start something...just think about this. As a LEO if you knew for a FACT that every time you stopped or questioned a person they WERE going to shot at you, Guaranteed. You would look at things a bit different. I know that you have to be ready every time you stop or question someone but I am talking about 100% of time you will be shot at if you approach them. Just think about that. It would be the same for the scum out there.
Dirk Williams
02-08-12, 11:33
After watching I felt like Phili, I thought it very foolish, with the fat lady and child in the line of fire.
That's thinking like a cop. It worked out well for the victims which is good.
It's a crap shoot at best.
Many of you are really good weapons guys. Training often, shooting often preparing for "that" moment. You know your skills set better then anybody else.
There is no halfway, you either commit fully, or you become a very good witness.
Good luck to any one put in that shitty position.
Dirk
After watching I felt like Phili, I thought it very foolish, with the fat lady and child in the line of fire.
That's thinking like a cop. It worked out well for the victims which is good.
It's a crap shoot at best.
Many of you are really good weapons guys. Training often, shooting often preparing for "that" moment. You know your skills set better then anybody else.
There is no halfway, you either commit fully, or you become a very good witness.
Good luck to any one put in that shitty position.
Dirk
That is very well put. Thanks for that.
After watching I felt like Phili, I thought it very foolish, with the fat lady and child in the line of fire.
That's thinking like a cop. It worked out well for the victims which is good.
It's a crap shoot at best.
Many of you are really good weapons guys. Training often, shooting often preparing for "that" moment. You know your skills set better then anybody else.
There is no halfway, you either commit fully, or you become a very good witness.
Good luck to any one put in that shitty position.
Dirk
Very well said. Now, moving on...
Gunman opens fire in court! http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120208/NEWS/120209802/-1/SITEMAP
You can expect more pissed off people going to extremes in the future.
This. A thousand times this.
Read this closely. It may be the best thing ever posted on the internet:
Excellent read, thank you very much.
As people feel that their situation becomes more desperate they will go to more extreme measures to try and resolve them.
Yes it is going to get worse as the entire situation gets worse here.
First, the intent of the turd in this video was clearly and correctly judged by the employee. His initial judgement was that the turd's intent was to threaten the safety of everyone in the immediate vicinity by drawing his firearm. Any reasonable person should be able to come to the same conclusion. His next judgement was that no matter what the turd's ultimate goal was, he was already justified in using deadly force to end the threat that the turd created which was quickly followed by his judgement that he had the element of surprise on his side if he acted quickly and violently to the turd's threat.
Second, the employee and the three other people in the room were already in harm's way based on the actions of the turd. I don't see, after rewatching the video several times, that the employee used the cashier as a human shield when he began firing. I do see that he used her to obscure the fact from the turd that he was drawing his weapon in preparation to use it. He bought himself a fraction of a second. Clearly, the cashier, the woman, and the child were in close proximity to the weapons muzzle. They were NOT in his line of fire or they would have almost certainly been struck by one of the rounds he fired. They were not.
As an aside, the three other individuals could certainly find some unscrupulous attorney who would take their case and file it in civil court. I believe the likelihood of them winning such a case based on their assertation that the employee endangered them or traumatized them in the process of saving their lives is fairly low.
Despite what you are trying to say, the fact is that the FOUR innocent persons in the room were already in imminent danger of serious bodily harm based on the actions of the turd. The quickly calculated response by one of those persons is what ended the threat of the aforementioned imminent threat to all of them.
Finally, inasmuch as is appropriate, I believe we should all try to stick to facts as much as possible and leave hypotheticals out of the equation unless we are posting in a "What would you do if..." thread.
Respectfully, Lobo
Well said Lobo and I concur completely. The angle of the video camera makes it appear that the armed employee who ended this situation is closer to the woman and child than he actually was. He had a clear shot and took it. Not bad at all.
PA PATRIOT
02-08-12, 12:32
Well it appears every Cowboy has a opinion that blasting away is always the best solution to every situation.
The hell if it endangers other persons standing inches from the path of the flying bullets but as long as you got the robber all is good.:blink:
I have always been quick to unsnap the holster and come to the low ready at the slightest indication of a armed person on a call but by doing so also reminds me that I am responsible for every living soul in that engagement area and that I can not force a bad tactical situation which places innocents in a greater danger just to get the bad guy then if I had taken no action at all and waited until I control the engagement that placed those same innocents in a better situation survival wise.
Now I understand that some situations may require one to fire their weapon immediately in such a case of a active shooter or the bad guys start to shoot innocents unprovoked but thats not the case here. To force a engagement in such a poor tactical position as show in the video is just plain idiotic at best.
Gentlemen make sure you keep those lawyers cell numbers on speed dial as I feel one day a few here may need to use them from some of the responses I have read.
With that I'm done posting in this thread.
Moose-Knuckle
02-08-12, 15:05
Want to see a GOOD fight? The definition being 'a fight that is over before the loser knows it's started'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk
I see Phila's point of view. That shoot could have gone sideways fast! The CCW guy's muzzle was damn close to that baby girls head. Maybe that guy was confident in his skills, training, etc. Camera angels and all. . .
Had that been my wife and child I would have attempted to position myself between them and the BG before engaging. The BG in the video fired back; luckily none of his errant rounds struck the mother and child that were just feet away.
Gunman opens fire in court! http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbc...802/-1/SITEMAP
You can expect more pissed off people going to extremes in the future.
I don't condone violence, but public officials will experience "blowback" as people get more desperate and Government gets bigger.
QuietShootr
02-08-12, 15:30
I see Phila's point of view. That shoot could have gone sideways fast! The CCW guy's muzzle was damn close to that baby girls head. Maybe that guy was confident in his skills, training, etc. Camera angels and all. . .
Had that been my wife and child I would have attempted to position myself between them and the BG before engaging. The BG in the video fired back; luckily none of his errant rounds struck the mother and child that were just feet away.
Anytime some dirtbag is pointing a gun at you, things have already gone sideways. And he was a good two feet from that kid at his closest point of approach - and that's not even close enough to be exciting.
Busta Prima
02-08-12, 17:01
Anytime some dirtbag is pointing a gun at you, things have already gone sideways. And he was a good two feet from that kid at his closest point of approach - and that's not even close enough to be exciting.
+1
The guy did good . . . very good. I thought it was close to the child but it really looks like a bad camera angle.
Moose-Knuckle
02-08-12, 19:48
Gents, I'm not saying the CCW holder did wrong. Or that it was a bad shoot. Good on him, one less oxygen thief in the world.
But yes it was close (few feet) and after the fact I am more concerned about the BGs errant rounds as the mother and daughter were in the line of fire. They did not get back behind the counter (cover) until the BG had already exited and expired.
Everyone went home in time for dinner except the perp, good day in all.
:cool:
Well it appears every Cowboy has a opinion that blasting away is always the best solution to every situation.
The hell if it endangers other persons standing inches from the path of the flying bullets but as long as you got the robber all is good.:blink:
I have always been quick to unsnap the holster and come to the low ready at the slightest indication of a armed person on a call but by doing so also reminds me that I am responsible for every living soul in that engagement area and that I can not force a bad tactical situation which places innocents in a greater danger just to get the bad guy then if I had taken no action at all and waited until I control the engagement that placed those same innocents in a better situation survival wise.
Now I understand that some situations may require one to fire their weapon immediately in such a case of a active shooter or the bad guys start to shoot innocents unprovoked but thats not the case here. To force a engagement in such a poor tactical position as show in the video is just plain idiotic at best.
Gentlemen make sure you keep those lawyers cell numbers on speed dial as I feel one day a few here may need to use them from some of the responses I have read.
With that I'm done posting in this thread.
All you have to do is use a Google or Yahoo search for an individual by the name of Paul Dennis Reid currently held in a Tennessee Prison death row cell. He killed 7 innocent people during a number of fast food restaurants. He hearded them into the back area and shot them all to death except one who survived. You never know what is going on in someone's head and I never plan on trying to figure that out if placed in a situation like this. I wouldn't take the shot until I was sure it would be a good one and maybe the guy on the video felt it was.
Gents, I'm not saying the CCW holder did wrong. Or that it was a bad shoot. Good on him, one less oxygen thief in the world.
But yes it was close (few feet) and after the fact I am more concerned about the BGs errant rounds as the mother and daughter were in the line of fire. They did not get back behind the counter (cover) until the BG had already exited and expired.
Everyone went home in time for dinner except the perp, good day in all.
:cool:
Moose, I understand what you are saying here, but suffice it to say that I have trained (in a VERY controlled environment) where I was AT MOST 3 feet from a muzzle and/or a flying bullet (down range) and can tell you that a few feet is NOT a near miss.
As a side note (for those of you who train your mind and body to actually defend yourself and not rely on "statistics"): If the first time that you have to shoot PAST a live person is when the shit goes sideways, and it IS for real, you might just hesitate, getting yourself or those you love killed. I say that because, like I said above, I have experienced it in a training environment and can tell you that just doing it once will prepare your mind more than I can even explain for a close up situation where there are others in close proximity. I may be a little crazy, but I wish I could do stuff like that all the time :blink:
Gentlemen make sure you keep those lawyers cell numbers on speed dial as I feel one day a few here may need to use them from some of the responses I have read.
With that I'm done posting in this thread.
This is by no means derogatory, I mean this in the best way possible and only for your well-being, but...
You might want to consider getting your mind right Phila...the day that you might actually need that mindset is not the time to figure out that you don't have it.
QuietShootr
02-08-12, 21:39
Moose, I understand what you are saying here, but suffice it to say that I have trained (in a VERY controlled environment) where I was AT MOST 3 feet from a muzzle and/or a flying bullet (down range) and can tell you that a few feet is NOT a near miss.
:
Agreed. Where these horrified guys saw a bullet parting the baby's hair, I saw a gap just about wide enough to back a Volkswagen into.
Dudes, just because YOU can't make a shot (mentally or physically) doesn't mean nobody else can either. This guy was clearly up to it.
Want to see a GOOD fight? The definition being 'a fight that is over before the loser knows it's started'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk
The shooter executes his actions with speed, surprise, and violence of action(well done, here) he picks the moment to initiate, and scores 3 hits for 3 shots fired. Note the skillful use of the fat chick as concealment (though from the looks of her, she's probably Level IIIa cover) for his draw.
This happend about 10 mins from my house wow I have mixed feelings about this video and I agree with Phila about endangering a young child in that situation.
PA PATRIOT
02-09-12, 00:23
This is by no means derogatory, I mean this in the best way possible and only for your well-being, but...
You might want to consider getting your mind right Phila...the day that you might actually need that mindset is not the time to figure out that you don't have it.
Ironman8,
I was out until you pulled me back in with a statement like that.
We truly have to talk about getting some ones mind right here and I hate to say it Ironman but I'M directing my response directly at you.
I'm not sure what type of encounters or ninja training you may have attended in the past but your talking out your buttock here.
I will keep it simple,
Was the employee justified with discharging a firearm during a armed robbery. Most likely Yes.
Does the justified use of deadly force preclude one from the legal liability that the use of deadly force which recklessly endangers another person even if its not intended can make you criminally liable? A bad shoot is a bad shoot if you hit that little girl or her mother or your reckless action gets another shot your criminally liable no matter if the initial use of dead force was legal.
The employee as I stated before used the female casher as cover as can be seen at time mark 31 into 32 of the video as the first shots fired was over the females right shoulder and the employees body was squarely behind the female. Watch frame by frame this outstanding tactical use of a non combatant as cover to trade shots at a armed robber.
Did the actions of the armed employee shooting over the casher right shoulder endanger this female? Hell Yes! Because now if the robber returns fire at the armed employee who is he most likely to hit? At least the casher had the common sense to move away from the dip when incoming rounds buzzed past.
Now in time index 33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk&feature=player_detailpage#t=32s I wish I could capture the picture which shows the a shot being fired by the armed employee were most of the view of the robber is obscured by the body of the little girl. Now I understand there is a slight camera angle at play here but I don't think the armed employee even saw the mother and child because he is so focus on the robber his pistol tracks directly toward the child while firing and it was only the mother back stepping to the left that saves this little girl from being shot.
Ironman, I truly hope your past statements are just a sign of your inexperience in these matters and this is not who you really are. I have taken life in the service of my country and in the line of duty and at the end of the day its not something to be proud of or to be bragging about to friends. This video has some very reckless actions by the armed employee and while his use of force may have been justified by the letter of the law his actions endangered others by forcing a bad tactical position and only by the grace of God the casher and the mother/child was not hurt.
I hope some can see what I'M trying to show here that the right to do some thing (Shoot a Bad guy) may not always be the right thing to do if your actions can cause more harm then good.
Were you there? How can you know what you'd do if you were in that exact situation? Quit Monday Morning Quarterbacking a situation if you weren't directly involved! Excuse, excuse, bullshit, bullshit I'm a tough guy you don't know what it's like... yadda yadda yadda...
This is the kind of bullshit we'd hear if it were a cop involved in the shooting versus the average American citizen. Jeezus Effing Keeryst! The amount of hypocritical bullshit around here is abso****inglutely amazing.
Who gives a ****? The guy had the opportunity to smoke a bad guy and potentially save several innocent lives and guess what? He did it! Any amount of bullshit and MMQB'ing isn't going to change anything and if he were a badge wearing member of society he'd be given a free pass.
Well done citizen, well done.
PA PATRIOT
02-09-12, 00:53
Were you there? How can you know what you'd do if you were in that exact situation? Quit Monday Morning Quarterbacking a situation if you weren't directly involved! Excuse, excuse, bullshit, bullshit I'm a tough guy you don't know what it's like... yadda yadda yadda...
This is the kind of bullshit we'd hear if it were a cop involved in the shooting versus the average American citizen. Jeezus Effing Keeryst! The amount of hypocritical bullshit around here is abso****inglutely amazing.
Who gives a ****? The guy had the opportunity to smoke a bad guy and potentially save several innocent lives and guess what? He did it! Any amount of bullshit and MMQB'ing isn't going to change anything and if he were a badge wearing member of society he'd be given a free pass.
Just a bunch of Cowboys, I just hope someday that its not someone in your family that gets planted because it was the super ninja, inflated ego, have to be the Saviour of the world dumb shit who does something stupid and kills someone you love. But hell thats ok I'M sure you wont Monday Morning Quarterback his decision's here either or back in ninja camp because it was just the right thing to do.:dirol:
I'M done playing with the kiddies and its time to move to a more adult forum.
Phila,
Your analysis and evaluation of the video is just simply wrong. Just before the first shot is fired, yes, he has extended his arms out over the right shoulder of his co worker to point/aim his shot. He also nudges the cashiers shoulder down and she is already moving down and to the left when he fires. Next, yes, the view of the turd is partially obscured by the little girl. That is the view of the camera lens, NOT the view of the shooter. He clearly has a good, controlled, two handed grip on the weapon and a clear line of sight past the muzzle of the weapon to the target (turd).
You also earlier mentioned the possibility of doing everything wrong and still getting lucky. Well sir, luck favors those who are most prepared. One does not score multiple hits on a moving target by luck. Given the totality of the circumstances, everything I see in that video indicated to me that the shooter was mentally prepared for the action he took. He moved calmly and deliberately and fired in the same manner.
The reality is that situations in which one finds it necessary to use deadly force against an armed threat to protect oneself or another person are not ever going to be an ideal situation. It is not going to be "range conditions", it will be near chaos, barely controllable and scary as all hell. There will be time for nothing but taking action based on how one has trained. If one is mentally prepared, the mind will rapidly process information and data faster than any computer yet to be devised and enable the individual to act quickly and decisively, seemingly faster than is humanly possible.
As for your "Cowboy" reference, I'm not really sure what you mean by that. If it was meant in some contemptous manner, well, around here it's not a term that's considered a term of derision.
Again... Respectfully, Lobo
Moose-Knuckle
02-09-12, 02:10
Moose, I understand what you are saying here, but suffice it to say that I have trained (in a VERY controlled environment) where I was AT MOST 3 feet from a muzzle and/or a flying bullet (down range) and can tell you that a few feet is NOT a near miss.
As a side note (for those of you who train your mind and body to actually defend yourself and not rely on "statistics"): If the first time that you have to shoot PAST a live person is when the shit goes sideways, and it IS for real, you might just hesitate, getting yourself or those you love killed. I say that because, like I said above, I have experienced it in a training environment and can tell you that just doing it once will prepare your mind more than I can even explain for a close up situation where there are others in close proximity. I may be a little crazy, but I wish I could do stuff like that all the time :blink:
Agreed. Where these horrified guys saw a bullet parting the baby's hair, I saw a gap just about wide enough to back a Volkswagen into.
Dudes, just because YOU can't make a shot (mentally or physically) doesn't mean nobody else can either. This guy was clearly up to it.
You guys are talking about your own skill set here and placing yourselves in the CCW guys shoes. There was more than one gun going off here. I agree with you guys that the CCW guy knew how to shoot and the results back that up. The BGs returning fire was in the direction of the mother and her daugher, what was his level of skill? Did he care rather or not those two were hit and or killed?
I don't take anything in this thread personal, I'm not taking any "sides", and some here need to take a deep breath, relax, and drink a cold one.
As Irish has pointed out WE are ALL Monday morning QB'ing this incident into the ground. Let's move on with the topic of civil unrest shall we? If not lets start a new thread in the tactics sub-forum on the matter.
Agreed. Sorry, but I just couldn't resist the Curly Bill retort.
Moving on...
Oh great... something else to be worried about. Statistically, we're overdue for one of these solar super storms, and it's scary as hell to think about the havoc that would wreak on modern society.
http://whentechfails.com/node/1545
:( I need to go read "Lights Out" again.
Agreed, moving on...won't even say what I wanna say...
I will say though to Phila that what was written in my previous post, like I said, was not to call you out in the slightest...sorry you took offense to it.
Oh great... something else to be worried about. Statistically, we're overdue for one of these solar super storms, and it's scary as hell to think about the havoc that would wreak on modern society.
http://whentechfails.com/node/1545
:( I need to go read "Lights Out" again.
Well that was a fun read....:(
Gives me more to look forward to. :rolleyes:
Anyone who ASSumes armed violent felons are just looking for an easy payday, and they haven't a thought in the world about rape/murder etc, is being foolish and is risking all the victim's lives.
Shooting it out with armed robbers is also risky. But doing it the way the victim did in the video worked fine. He had surprise on his side, he fired first and used an effective caliber pistol, all of which are big advantages in close range self-defense situations.
Moose-Knuckle
02-09-12, 15:21
Oh great... something else to be worried about. Statistically, we're overdue for one of these solar super storms, and it's scary as hell to think about the havoc that would wreak on modern society.
http://whentechfails.com/node/1545
:( I need to go read "Lights Out" again.
Good stuff, this is something that has crossed my mind more than once. When the lights go out no one will be there (nuke plants) to ensure cooling of the rods and what not. We would suffer the fallout just as we would if attacked by nuclear bombs.
Just a Jarhead
02-10-12, 02:54
KI03. http://www.medicalcorps.com/
Every prepper should have some. I sure do. It's so cheap no excuse not to. I'm nestled smack dab in between 2 nuke plants here in south FL and in one of the top terrorist "hot spots" http://www.theblaze.com/stories/do-you-live-near-a-terrorism-hot-spot-according-to-this-map/.
Important info here on KI03
http://www.medicalcorps.com/ki-kio3/kio3-2.htm
http://www.medicalcorps.org/prep/index.htm
http://www.ki4u.com/guide.htm
Some may find this key chain radiation detector affordable ($169) and handy. I sure do. 10 year battery life. http://www.nukalert.com/
http://www.nukalert.com/manual.htm
Moose-Knuckle
02-10-12, 04:02
Some may find this key chain radiation detector affordable ($169) and handy. I sure do. 10 year battery life. http://www.nukalert.com/
http://www.nukalert.com/manual.htm
I saw one once in an article and wonder who sold them. Thanks for the links!
Bad Medicine
02-10-12, 08:39
The ever controlling arm of the government continues to outstretch its bounds by moderating the media. Anybody feel like they are going to start issuing prison time for calling Obama admin a bunch of jack a****
http://www.infowars.com/group-forces-congressional-hearing-on-big-sis-twitter-drudge-spying/
Bad Medicine
02-11-12, 14:19
Thought this was interesting to say the least.
https://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/drt/si?p=CAA&ut=AFAKxlQAAAAATzbLhc97vbsEg8Yh6Hkm3JPyaudtQMhq
Google errors aren't very interesting. ;)
Bad Medicine
02-11-12, 14:48
Sorry this should work, this guy was deemed crazy and had his firearms taken away.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1779718/pg1
NoveskeFan
02-11-12, 14:57
I dont watch the show. What is the backstory? Did his 1st amendment screw over his 2nd?
Sorry this should work, this guy was deemed crazy and had his firearms taken away.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1779718/pg1
Bad Medicine
02-11-12, 15:00
I dont watch the show. What is the backstory? Did his 1st amendment screw over his 2nd?
In a nutshell I don't think it really helped anything, he went to his cardiologist who deemed him "defective" and the government came and took away his firearms. The doctor said that he was suicidal even though he claims that he hasn't ever considered it.
Bad Medicine
02-11-12, 15:01
Also this all happened to him after appearing on that new nat geo show called doomsday preppers which is put to make preppers look insane.
NoveskeFan
02-11-12, 15:05
Isn't suicide not a crime? So he commits no real crime and gets his stuff taken? Example of things to come? Did he submit to some kind of psychological exam?
In a nutshell I don't think it really helped anything, he went to his cardiologist who deemed him "defective" and the government came and took away his firearms. The doctor said that he was suicidal even though he claims that he hasn't ever considered it.
Bad Medicine
02-11-12, 16:22
Isn't suicide not a crime? So he commits no real crime and gets his stuff taken? Example of things to come? Did he submit to some kind of psychological exam?
Not that I am aware of, he was joking around with his doctor about killing himself, so the doctor had him arrested. Not really something to joke around with your doctor about though.
pilotguyo540
02-11-12, 16:45
Not that I am aware of, he was joking around with his doctor about killing himself, so the doctor had him arrested. Not really something to joke around with your doctor about though.
It sounds like he just said he didn't want to live with a traich. That's basically that same as a DNR (do not resuscitate). When specifically asked about suicide, he said he can't because he is a Christian. He then made a joke about running through the projects with a sheet on his head (laughed my ass off over that). Then he was ordered to the emergency room. Keep in mind, he was only trying to follow up on an appointment he had a month and a half prior. No current medical emergencies. When he refused, the sheriff intervened and forcibly admitted him to the emergency room.
I probably didn't need to type all of that, but none the less, a ****ed up chain of events.
I wonder if the doctor reported him out of fear of a malpractice/negligence suit. Bottom line, keep your pie hole shut, even when speaking with your doctor. We're closer to a full on police state with each passing day.
Here's another disturbing thread along the same lines;
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=98718
Bad Medicine
02-11-12, 19:21
That sucks, I know now that I am not going to say a peep to any stupid VA doctors, things are getting out of control! They are slowly taking away gun rights, and trying to rid themselves of the hassles presented by checks and balances.
I saw on the news this morning that the chaos in Greece is escalating rapidly. The citizens are firebombing gov't buildings & the cops themselves. The greek gov't is trying to cut minimum wage & raise taxes. The gov't is awaiting a $185B bailout from the Euro union. If they don't get it withing a month or so, they will bankrupt. This could create domino effect worldwide.
Article on Greece with quite a few pictures showing the chaos and destruction. http://news.yahoo.com/greece-boils-over-120700059.html
Bad Medicine
02-13-12, 12:15
From what it sounds like they will get the bailout right? The messed up part is that this is only a temporary fix not one that will last.
I wonder if the doctor reported him out of fear of a malpractice/negligence suit. Bottom line, keep your pie hole shut, even when speaking with your doctor. We're closer to a full on police state with each passing day.
Here's another disturbing thread along the same lines;
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=98718
Isn't that akin to taking your car in for an oil change, then the shop inspects your brakes without authorization and refuses to give it back until they do a brake job?
That dumbass doctor would be FIRED before I went anywhere! :mad:
alienb1212
02-13-12, 17:35
Bought a pretty hefty supply of KOI3 from that link. My current and bugout locations are pretty far from nuclear plants, but cant hurt, and it's cheap.
train of abuses
02-14-12, 04:29
I see you are all talking about the youtube.com/dsarti1 guy. Yeah, he has another video up that he is going to challenge the government ruling legally.
I still don't see how the government can go in and take away someone's firearms just because a doctor says they might be suicidal. That is far too subjective, especially going on the word of one doctor.
I didn't watch the whole video, but, I saw the part where he states that maybe the doctor should just let things run their course (instead of him being hooked up to a lot of tubes).
In other words = let him die
That is a big red flag for the medical community. Making statements that indicate that you are OK with others making an action that allows you to harm yourself, or allows you the ability to die = is pretty much guaranteeing (sp) that you are going to be reported on, watched, monitored, etc - in some way, shape, or form (for your own well being).
mallowpufft
02-14-12, 20:37
I see you are all talking about the youtube.com/dsarti1 guy. Yeah, he has another video up that he is going to challenge the government ruling legally.
I still don't see how the government can go in and take away someone's firearms just because a doctor says they might be suicidal. That is far too subjective, especially going on the word of one doctor.
Um, I'm gonna go ahead and blame that on Cho. After the Tech shooting, at least here in VA, you are prevented from purchasing firearms if you have been involuntarily committed. It can be removed by a judge but I hear that's hard to get done.
I don't remember the specifics on continuing to own but I think it's like felons. If he's advertised ownership he's pretty well screwed.
Kind of why burial of a few key items in multiple locations is probably a good idea.
Moose-Knuckle
02-14-12, 21:16
Article on Greece with quite a few pictures showing the chaos and destruction. http://news.yahoo.com/greece-boils-over-120700059.html
"Tick-tock". . .
train of abuses
02-15-12, 00:21
Yeah, I agree that storing/burying firearms in other locations is a great idea and was highlighted by Dsarti1 stuff.
Yeah, I can see in a way why it drew the red flag in the medical community, but just because someone doesn't want to live with tubes and holes in their neck after a certain age doesn't mean the same thing to me as some sort of out of control suicidal manic depressive guy who wants to bring a lot of people with him to the grave. I suppose I am concerned that this will start to be abused a great deal more, just like the article Irish posted about vets having their ability to purchase and own firearms taken away. It seems like an easy place for the government to institute back door anti-gun policies without being held accountable by the voters.
dracconian
02-15-12, 01:27
We are required by law to disclose any mental health problems in Canada when we apply for our firearms licenses. This violates Privacy Laws in Canada and this conclusion is backed up by the Privacy Council of Canada (it would be like a Senate Oversite Committee in your neck of the woods).
Could this be used on very subjective basis to complete a backend run around to confiscate or prevent ownership, you bet it can. Prior to going into our last election, one of the political parties here in Canada (NDP) wanted to introduce a bill that would require former/current police officers and military folks to disclose their service on a firearms application. Needless to say, it did not get far.
Bad Medicine
02-15-12, 08:35
"Tick-tock". . .
This morning on drudge.....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9082843/Greek-economy-spirals-down-as-EU-forces-final-catharsis.html
It's only going to get worse over there, I can see things getting a lot worse over here after China stops loaning us money. Obama is trying to cut our nukes below 80%, I swear it is an attempt to bring us out of the spotlight as a world power. This was also on drudge, I am certain that Greece is a look into the future of the US if Obama is re-elected
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NUCLEAR_WEAPONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Doc Safari
02-15-12, 09:21
Greece is one of the countries that Iran is now refusing to sell oil to, if I'm not mistaken.
That could potentially cause the unrest to ratchet up to civil war levels.
...I am certain that Greece is a look into the future of the US if Obama is re-elected
I'm pretty sure it's a look into the future no matter who is living in the White House next year. The big question is, how is that person going to react?
Will he stomp down on "capitalism" and individual freedom with an iron boot-heel, or will he decide that Keynesian shenanigans and excessive government control are the root causes of most of our problems? My guess is that whoever is Prez, the reaction will be the former.
Bad Medicine
02-19-12, 10:25
I'm pretty sure it's a look into the future no matter who is living in the White House next year. The big question is, how is that person going to react?
Will he stomp down on "capitalism" and individual freedom with an iron boot-heel, or will he decide that Keynesian shenanigans and excessive government control are the root causes of most of our problems? My guess is that whoever is Prez, the reaction will be the former.
Couldn't agree more, even Bush was big government, now we are reading in the news that war with Iran in inevitable and that we have deployed drones to Syrai. More reason for Obama to drive up taxes and cause more intrusion into our lives for our "safte." Mark my words more regulation is coming in an unprecented amount. Drones, para-military federal pollice, i.e. BATFE, TSA, and FBI and we will make Greece look like a kindergarten playground.
Just a Jarhead
02-20-12, 03:14
Could America's Farmers and Ranchers Face a Rhodesian Future?
"Life for farmers in Rhodesia in the 1970s was nerve-wracking."
Some lessons to be learned from the plight of the Farmers in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe). Interesting article this morning that I know many of you will enjoy over at survivalblog. The reference books listed at the end of the article I'm sure hold many valuable lessons.
http://survivalblog.com/2012/02/could-americas-farmers-and-ranchers-face-a-rhodesian-future.html
Could America's Farmers and Ranchers Face a Rhodesian Future?...
This movie is a GREAT documentary about one family in Rhodesia (now called "Zimbabwe"). There could very well be be something similar in our future - "punishing the rich oppressors" and all that:
"Mugabe and the White African"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ45CgXLyEk
This movie is a GREAT documentary about one family in Rhodesia (now called "Zimbabwe"). There could very well be be something similar in our future - "punishing the rich oppressors" and all that...
I agree, great documentary. Also available on Netflix streaming for those who have it.
Doc Safari
02-20-12, 10:34
This movie is a GREAT documentary about one family in Rhodesia (now called "Zimbabwe"). There could very well be be something similar in our future - "punishing the rich oppressors" and all that:
"Mugabe and the White African"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ45CgXLyEk
I don't fit the category of "rich" or "oppressor" by any stretch, but the mob mentality will take over, I'm sure.
A fellow rancher and I often half-jokingly talk about thugs in pickup trucks with AK's coming to loot and pillage the countryside.
Somehow it's less funny typing it than talking about it.
Please be aware... http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/19/violent-crime-dc-surges-2012/
Violent crime so far this year in the District has spiked sharply — a 40 percent increase that includes twice as many robberies at gunpoint than at this time last year.
Across the city, all police districts are reporting increases in violent crime, and all but one have had double-digit percentage increases, according to internal Metropolitan Police Department documents...
The biggest increase was in the 1st District, which includes Capitol Hill, where violent crime jumped by 69 percent, with 110 incidents reported compared with 65 at this point last year.
Bad Medicine
02-21-12, 10:31
Please be aware... http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/19/violent-crime-dc-surges-2012/
What really sucks about this is the fact that DC was starting to let up on gun control and then this happens. Every liberal in the US will jump all over this saying that it is a gun control issue. Luckily the WT isn't a liberal powerhouse and after reading the article it doesn't mention anything about gun control.
Moose-Knuckle
02-21-12, 15:08
I don't fit the category of "rich" or "oppressor" by any stretch, but the mob mentality will take over, I'm sure.
None of us do, however the entitlement oxygen thieves won’t make that distinction. It will be open season on all of us.
Moose-Knuckle
02-24-12, 14:41
Nike shoe release cause FL riot
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/nike-foamposite-galaxy-shoe-release-causes-rioting-florida-161202536.html
Um yeah, a shoe causes riots like guns cause crime. :rolleyes:
Another example of the oxygen thieves rioting over something as trivial has a pair of junk shoes from China. Just imagine what they will be like when they are starving and run out of water.
BAN ALL SHOES!!! WE NEED SHOE REGISTRATION
Breadstick
02-24-12, 15:33
Nike shoe release cause FL riot
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/nike-foamposite-galaxy-shoe-release-causes-rioting-florida-161202536.html
Um yeah, a shoe causes riots like guns cause crime. :rolleyes:
Another example of the oxygen thieves rioting over something as trivial has a pair of junk shoes from China. Just imagine what they will be like when they are starving and run out of water.
and people think zombies don't exist......
Punisher1336
02-26-12, 09:32
I am prepared for a short term (2 week) period of civil unrest......after that, I will have to take it one day at a time and see how the situation develops.
pruitt0212
02-26-12, 17:18
I'm not ready for everything that could possibly happen, but I can honestly say I am ready for any case of civil unrest. As ready as I can be living in an urban area anyhow. Hope it never comes to that though. Sadly, with the way our nation has changed over the last 50 years it seems imminent.
I'm only prepared for 32,000 rioting zombies, or six months, whichever comes first. After that I fall back to Mr. Husqvarna and Mr. Estwing.
The slow motion train wreck is amazing to watch. This is the stuff of history. " Grandpa, what was it like to live through the Great Collapse?" Or maybe it will be known as the Great Global Theft. Or the Slave Riots. I should be taking notes but for right now stocking more food and ammo seems time better spent.
3 doomsaying experts who foresee economic devastation ahead. (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/stocks/story/2012-02-26/stock-market-bears-doomsayers/53259742/1)
Americans should brace themselves for an "economic 9/11" due to policymakers' inability to solve the world's financial and economic woes. The coming meltdown, he predicts, will lead to growing social unrest and anti-government sentiment, a U.S. dollar with far less purchasing power and more people out of work.
Celente won't rule out another financial panic that could spark enough fear to cause a run on the nation's banks by depositors. That risk could cause the government to invoke "economic martial law" and call a "bank holiday" and close banks as it did during the Great Depression.....
Celente's advice centers on survival. He says buy gold so you don't lose purchasing power when the value of the dollar plummets. He says buy a gun to protect your family against desperate people in search of food and money. He says plan a getaway to places with more stable finances and governments.
Last night on main stream TV there was a commercial warning of the coming economic meltdown. My wife & I were both blown away that something like this would be broadcast on regular TV.
3 doomsaying experts who foresee economic devastation ahead. (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/stocks/story/2012-02-26/stock-market-bears-doomsayers/53259742/1)
I think that's horrible advice for people who are already struggling and whom also take this stuff seriously. Silver seems slightly more reasonabble but still terrible advice. You can't eat gold or silver...
There are much better ways for these people to be preparing. They should be positioning themselves where they can eat, and trade (and defend).
I think that's horrible advice for people who are already struggling and whom also take this stuff seriously. Silver seems slightly more reasonabble but still terrible advice. You can't eat gold or silver...
There are much better ways for these people to be preparing. They should be positioning themselves where they can eat, and trade (and defend).
You're assumption is that everyone who reads this and takes it seriously is currently struggling, not the case. What are you talking about preparing for? Zombies, EMP, nuclear war, economic collapse, plagues, Book of Revelations? There are many different people preparing for whatever type of SHTF situation they envision and the requirements vary greatly from one to the next.
Gold and silver are mediums of exchange, have been for thousands of years and will continue to be so. You can only have so many metric tons of bullets, band-aids and food stored before you must seek alternative ways of divesting your income and protecting your wealth for any and all sorts of emerging distasters, implosions or collapse.
just watched the noon news from earlier and there was a high school shooting in NE ohio 1 dead and 4 others wounded.. just sad.
everyday you watch and read about just some of the stupidest things happening around our nation and the world and it just kills a part of your soul.
You're assumption is that everyone who reads this and takes it seriously is currently struggling, not the case. What are you talking about preparing for? Zombies, EMP, nuclear war, economic collapse, plagues, Book of Revelations? There are many different people preparing for whatever type of SHTF situation they envision and the requirements vary greatly from one to the next.
Gold and silver are mediums of exchange, have been for thousands of years and will continue to be so. You can only have so many metric tons of bullets, band-aids and food stored before you must seek alternative ways of divesting your income and protecting your wealth for any and all sorts of emerging distasters, implosions or collapse.
I assume nothing, I'm realistic. There are far more people hurting and struggling now than not. Unless of coruse you believe the false numbers coming out of D.C. about the "recovery".
Buy up all the gold you want if you can afford it. I'll be eating and have things that are easier to trade with a cheaper investment.
My statement is sound, if you're better off than the majority of the population then more power to you. Rock on with your bad self.
Nice how they stole guns from productive/normal/honest citizens. That does absolutely nothing but prevent them from defending themselves.
What would you do if the police came to your neighborhood to confiscate your weapons, while a few miles away criminals were looting and killing honest citizens?
I'd pray that if the unfortunate LE officer is wise enough, he will go about knocking on doors and telling people right out of the chute that he/she is there to confiscate firearms, but understands that they (the law abiding citizen(s)) are no longer in possession of such items due to sale, theft or loss, then bidding them good day. If he/she doesn't he/she will either end up with more work due to more crime obviously OR the worst case scenario, in a gun fight in turn either taking a life if not his own.
Our local Sheriff told his deputies that he would not send them to peoples houses to disarm them. Many local PD officers belong to Oathkeepers.
Bad Medicine
03-03-12, 21:55
I lost all of my guns in a boating accident yesterday! It was tragic...
alienb1212
03-03-12, 21:56
I lost all of my guns in a boating accident yesterday! It was tragic...
You too? What? No I don't own a boat...No..there isnt a body of water for miles...isn't it the damndest thing!?
Thank you for the video it made me realize I need to hide 3/4 of my guns. I did not think about the gov taking them. Thanks for the heads up.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
Shit! Me too! All my guns mysteriously disappeared.
I think they may have sunk 6-8 feet under the ground, but no idea how or where???? I hope they are well lubed :happy:
Yea I did not think of what I was saying. I only have 2 guns.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
Our local Sheriff told his deputies that he would not send them to peoples houses to disarm them. Many local PD officers belong to Oathkeepers.
I've introduced some local LE to the Oathkeepers.
Regarding confiscation, I don't know about you but my gun storage shed burned to a crisp, a real shame. All the ammo went up in the blaze too.
mallowpufft
03-03-12, 23:23
I'd pray that if the unfortunate LE officer is wise enough, he will go about knocking on doors and telling people right out of the chute that he/she is there to confiscate firearms, but understands that they (the law abiding citizen(s)) are no longer in possession of such items due to sale, theft or loss, then bidding them good day. If he/she doesn't he/she will either end up with more work due to more crime obviously OR the worst case scenario, in a gun fight in turn either taking a life if not his own.
Here in VA we just passed a law that prohibits LE from confiscation of firearms during disasters (a la katrina). I haven't had a chance to read it in its entirety to see what it spells out but its a step in the right direction.
Here in VA we just passed a law that prohibits LE from confiscation of firearms during disasters (a la katrina). I haven't had a chance to read it in its entirety to see what it spells out but its a step in the right direction.
That's pretty awesome. I LOVE Virginia. However, none of us need such a law. If they try to take lawfully owned weapons away from we the people, state of emergency or not, we should stand firm until they back down. No one wants a shootout, and once they realize the only way they're leaving with your arms is after they pry them out of your cold dead hands, they'll pussy out. If they don't back down, God help them. Tyrants deserve no quarter.
I'd pray that if the unfortunate LE officer is wise enough, he will go about knocking on doors and telling people right out of the chute that he/she is there to confiscate firearms, but understands that they (the law abiding citizen(s)) are no longer in possession of such items due to sale, theft or loss, then bidding them good day.
This approach looks lovely and yet serves as fair warning to the unarmed. Not sure how it would fare with powers that be...
alienb1212
03-04-12, 08:50
That's pretty awesome. I LOVE Virginia. However, none of us need such a law. If they try to take lawfully owned weapons away from we the people, state of emergency or not, we should stand firm until they back down. No one wants a shootout, and once they realize the only way they're leaving with your arms is after they pry them out of your cold dead hands, they'll pussy out. If they don't back down, God help them. Tyrants deserve no quarter.
I think the local LE would get this quickly, and would not attempt it..but increasing pressure from federal agencies would force them to eventually capitulate. I know several LEO's in my hometown as well as county sheriff and his deputies. I really don't think they'd attempt to confiscate firearms from the local populace unless they literally had a gun to their head.
I doubt this fantasy of LEO/military/UN troops or whatever, marching down your street, kicking in doors in a marshall law situation will ever materialize. Unless your town consists of 50 residents, it's not possible. I live in a 2+ million population city. Can you imagine the size of the force it would take to intimidate people through physical presence to the point where they would give up their arms? Not happening. The first day something like this happened word would get out & their plan would be bust before they cleared even a small residential street.
If they want our guns, they'll do it through legislation & manipulation. IMO, they would likely create a man made catastrophe where resources are rationed & force you to give up your arms if you want to feed your family per their "assistance" or some other way of strong arming the population. You don't think they know you have guns because guns are not registered in your state? Every FFL is required to keep records of their gun sales. I imagine they would sieze FFL records 1st to know who guns were sold to. Now they know what you have. I'm sure lots of people have black market guns or hand me down guns from dead relatives stashed which would be hard for them to find. But I think most folks have more legal arms than otherwise.
It would be suicide for any agency to go door to door siezing arms & the crooked powers that be know that. They'll come up with more intelligent ways of disarming the masses if it gets to that point. Just another angle to look at.
alienb1212
03-04-12, 09:00
I honestly don't think it's beyond the realm of realistic possibility. If you need proof just take a look what happened during Katrina. It wasn't a man-made catastrophe, but due to some looting and isolated violence, they WERE. I didn't see any legislation pass through, they just announced they were doing it, and did it. They had the National Guard, and several active-duty soldiers and marines doing it, right beside all the three letter federal agencies.
Katrina was an experiment that could've gone really really bad. Compare the population of New Orleans to the population of the entire US. Obviously, Katrina took place at a time where people didn't distrust the gov't as they do currently. Plus, New Orleans is a shithole with tons of people on gov't assistance. They are not going to bite the hand that feeds them.
How successful do you think a marshall law event would be in a state like Montana or Texas or California? They would need every military, LEO, & National Guard in existence to storm these states simultaneously to even make a dent. I doubt they would get very far before pandemonium broke loose.
Unless the gov't is looking to create an all out bloody war within the US, they are not going to physically go door to door siezing weapons.
I doubt this fantasy of LEO/military/UN troops or whatever, marching down your street, kicking in doors in a marshall law situation will ever materialize. Unless your town consists of 50 residents, it's not possible. I live in a 2+ million population city. Can you imagine the size of the force it would take to intimidate people through physical presence to the point where they would give up their arms? Not happening. The first day something like this happened word would get out & their plan would be bust before they cleared even a small residential street.
If they want our guns, they'll do it through legislation & manipulation. IMO, they would likely create a man made catastrophe where resources are rationed & force you to give up your arms if you want to feed your family per their "assistance" or some other way of strong arming the population. You don't think they know you have guns because guns are not registered in your state? Every FFL is required to keep records of their gun sales. I imagine they would sieze FFL records 1st to know who guns were sold to. Now they know what you have. I'm sure lots of people have black market guns or hand me down guns from dead relatives stashed which would be hard for them to find. But I think most folks have more legal arms than otherwise.
It would be suicide for any agency to go door to door siezing arms & the crooked powers that be know that. They'll come up with more intelligent ways of disarming the masses if it gets to that point. Just another angle to look at.
I do agree with alot of what your saying. Not that marshall law on a wide scale couldnt happen but i think they would find a non violent physical way for you to give up your arms. If the economy gets bad enough I wouldnt be suprised if they printed a ton more cash and offer to buy your gun from you, just go to your local pd and get your cash kind of thing. Other than that i think they would just impose huge taxes and fees to the purchase of a firearm that would make it so expensive to buy a gun manufacturuers would close shop due to no sales.
Beat Trash
03-04-12, 09:45
I know some states passed laws after Katrina preventing the confiscation of legally owned firearms, as it was done during Katrina.
I thought there was a bill at the federal level basically stating the same thing? Does anyone know if it passed into law?
I'm a LEO supervisor in a major urban area in Ohio. I can tell you that the firearms confiscation conducted by some officers during Katrina wouldn't be occurring by my officers. For so many reasons...
As far as marshal law and going house to house confiscating guns? Even if it were attempted, I can't see it happening. The available resources would be sucked up handling whatever event caused martial law to occur, and the associated rioting and looting that would be bound to happening.
If you're really concerned about this, then I might consider buying some POS single shot shotgun, with a bent barrel and no firing pin. The kind of thing that's only good for wall decoration at a Cracker Barrel restaurant. Then if asked if you have any guns, "yep, here you go..."
Dirk Williams
03-04-12, 11:00
I had the oppertunity to read some of the after action reports right after Katrina, while still an active LEO. My understanding was that BlackWater rolled into town, and just started policing, going house to house and taking weapons.
I do not recall if an LEO was present. My recollection is that BW did this on their own, without a contract. After the fact they were hired by Home Land Security to do armed security work after most of
NOPD dishonored themselves and fled.
They say corruption and cowardness go hand in hand.
Don't get me wrong many of our brothers stayed and did the right thing. My hat's off to those men and women of NOPD who recognized the needs of family and the community and did the right thing for both.
Dirk
alienb1212
03-04-12, 11:18
I had the oppertunity to read some of the after action reports right after Katrina, while still an active LEO. My understanding was that BlackWater rolled into town, and just started policing, going house to house and taking weapons.
I do not recall if an LEO was present. My recollection is that BW did this on their own, without a contract. After the fact they were hired by Home Land Security to do armed security work after most of
NOPD dishonored themselves and fled.
They say corruption and cowardness go hand in hand.
Don't get me wrong many of our brothers stayed and did the right thing. My hat's off to those men and women of NOPD who recognized the needs of family and the community and did the right thing for both.
Dirk
I wonder what the legality of taking out a few of these ****heads would be. Maybe they'd get the idea that some areas were simply not worth the trouble.
I would imagine that if BW or another private company was working without being contracted by the govt then they would be operating as nothing more than a gang, and subject to whatever a citizen was willing to do to protect him or herself.
Dirk Williams
03-04-12, 11:52
If I were the investigating officer after the fact, it would be viewed as a home invasion robbery pure and simple. That could change after the paper work got to the DA's office.
There were pictures of these turds on the net, post Katrina. Heavily armed and not just your garden variety gang member. Typical look bad Im a contractor ball cap and dark glasses.
I have to ask when did it become fashionable to be a ****ing mercenary/contractor against your own country, and your own fellow citizens.
Off topic but A little birdie recently home from Iraq told me to keep an eye on these folks as they may come home to a new job.
Working for STATEDEPT policing us. I found that interesting. But who knows what the truth is in that matter.
Dirk
Oh, I'm not saying they're typical gang bangers... I'm saying I and probably most here would look at them as such if they just took it upon themselves to become the police. They don't have the numbers to enforce anything against an unwilling population.
I have heard about your other point too. The State Dept is in my opinion looking into the "well armed, well equipped" private force that barack obama said the US needs. That will not be received very well by America.
If I were the investigating officer after the fact, it would be viewed as a home invasion robbery pure and simple. That could change after the paper work got to the DA's office.
There were pictures of these turds on the net, post Katrina. Heavily armed and not just your garden variety gang member. Typical look bad Im a contractor ball cap and dark glasses.
I have to ask when did it become fashionable to be a ****ing mercenary/contractor against your own country, and your own fellow citizens.
Off topic but A little birdie recently home from Iraq told me to keep an eye on these folks as they may come home to a new job.
Working for STATEDEPT policing us. I found that interesting. But who knows what the truth is in that matter.
Dirk
Interesting. How many does Black Water (or whatever their name is now) employ roughly? I would think that they would get picked off pretty quickly if they tried to enforce marshall law.
alienb1212
03-04-12, 12:10
If I were the investigating officer after the fact, it would be viewed as a home invasion robbery pure and simple. That could change after the paper work got to the DA's office.
There were pictures of these turds on the net, post Katrina. Heavily armed and not just your garden variety gang member. Typical look bad Im a contractor ball cap and dark glasses.
I have to ask when did it become fashionable to be a ****ing mercenary/contractor against your own country, and your own fellow citizens.
Off topic but A little birdie recently home from Iraq told me to keep an eye on these folks as they may come home to a new job.
Working for STATEDEPT policing us. I found that interesting. But who knows what the truth is in that matter.
Dirk
Even if "contracted for peacekeeping operations" if they have absolutely no credentials as a law enforcement officer, or any sort of federal agent, what authority would they have to confiscate or really do ANYTHING?
Quote:what authority would they have to confiscate or really do ANYTHING?
They have the authority of force or indifference of the local population.
enforce marshall law.
Not being an english speaking native, I hate to be the Grammar Police, but this expression is being tossed around so frequently that I went in to check....
Marshall Law is a character in a video game !!!(Link to the Wiki (http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Marshall_Law))
I guess you all are refering to Martial Law (Wikipedia Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012_.28NDAA.29_Section_1031)), that means that several civil liberties are suspended, due to being in a state of war.
Not being an english speaking native, I hate to be the Grammar Police, but this expression is being tossed around so frequently that I went in to check....
Marshall Law is a character in a video game !!!(Link to the Wiki (http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Marshall_Law))
I guess you all are refering to Martial Law (Wikipedia Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012_.28NDAA.29_Section_1031)), that means that several civil liberties are suspended, due to being in a state of war.
The older I get the worse my spelling gets. Note made. You get the point though.
So let me get this straight.....you have a problem with private contractors why? Seems there should probably be some backing behind your claim and not just come from what the media had force fed you. On account that on two septate deployments those guys have kept me from doing all sorts of shitty work. I'm not trying to get into anyone's opinion but maybe if you don't have any experience with them you could show some respect.
If I were the investigating officer after the fact, it would be viewed as a home invasion robbery pure and simple. That could change after the paper work got to the DA's office.
There were pictures of these turds on the net, post Katrina. Heavily armed and not just your garden variety gang member. Typical look bad Im a contractor ball cap and dark glasses.
I have to ask when did it become fashionable to be a ****ing mercenary/contractor against your own country, and your own fellow citizens.
Off topic but A little birdie recently home from Iraq told me to keep an eye on these folks as they may come home to a new job.
Working for STATEDEPT policing us. I found that interesting. But who knows what the truth is in that matter.
Dirk
You are ignorant. Bottom line. If you believe that little birdie. This is the fear mongering that conspiracy theorists put out about contractors. There are very specific guidelines for the use of contractors. All the ones I know of (I personally know a few) that worked Katrina were credentialed law enforcement officers, this was specified in most of the contract opportunities posted for Katrina. The others were static guard type positions and if it was for an armed position the requirement was for either credentialed LE or credentials as an armed guard in certain states that had reciprocity with coastal states.
Why would the DOS hire contractors for work domestically with the small exception of potentially protection details in relation to visiting dignitaries? That is outside of their lane, plain and simple.
Beyond that, contractors could potentially be used during martial law to escort and enforce the position of a Federal Agent but even this would take a significant declaration of power were the contractors not credentialed LE.
You are out of your lane of knowledge and insulting people who have done a tremendous amount of good for the United States with often absolutely no positive attention either sought or granted.
So, keep talking about things you have no idea about and making speculations based on rumor. All you are doing is diminishing any reputation you may have created with people who actually know what they are talking about.
The older I get the worse my spelling gets. Note made. You get the point though.
Not necessarily pointed towards you, but I have seen too many occurences... It started to get too annoying.
Bad Medicine
03-04-12, 15:54
A lot of private contracts are ex-military who hold a lot of the same values for the Constitution that we do. I know quite a few private contractors and they are good guys. Not only does the media trying to knock on them but so does Hollywood its really a shame.
A lot of private contracts are ex-military who hold a lot of the same values for the Constitution that we do. I know quite a few private contractors and they are good guys. Not only does the media trying to knock on them but so does Hollywood its really a shame.
I'm not mad about people talk down on these people. It sickens me but more so that it goes to show how the media can play a huge part in how we look at fellow Americans. How they can manipulate good people into making outlandish opinions. It really pisses me off. I understand that xe formerly Blackwater has a checkered past but to throw them all and private contractors in general into a smelting pot of lawless mercenaries is being uninformed. Even that situation is extremely twisted by the media. I want there in that square when "unarmed"civilians were fired upon by them. Neither were you and i'm glad a jury was smart enough to see that too. The fact of the matter is that they have to fill a security role along side everyone else and at the end of the day they are still Americans like you and i. Also before we go throwing around the term mercenaries let's try and understand what that label is.
I'll end that rant and get back to the point of the thread. I agree with the statement at the top of the page. If it ever were to come down to disarming the public its going to be in the fashion of paying laws. Even if we look back in history at the disarmament of civilians its mostly been in the form of legislature. Even then when is happened the public has been manipulated to willingly do so.
When I was in the military I often thought of what I would do in the situation of Martial law. I think everyone who works for .gov knows the feeling. I guess the way I saw it is that I was working for the gov employed by the constitution upheld by the people. I worked for you. Same as LE//FEDs. I know who's side I was on.
alienb1212
03-04-12, 17:14
So let me get this straight.....you have a problem with private contractors why? Seems there should probably be some backing behind your claim and not just come from what the media had force fed you. On account that on two septate deployments those guys have kept me from doing all sorts of shitty work. I'm not trying to get into anyone's opinion but maybe if you don't have any experience with them you could show some respect.
My experience with contractors has varied wildly. I believe every single one I spoke with was ex military (95% army or Corps)
Most were very quiet, professional, and efficient. The one issue we had with them is they tended to view locals, (Afghans) as black or white, either completely friendly, or the enemy. (More often the latter) One actually took the time to give me a tour of his whirlybird when he saw me being curious.
I think DoD contractors and otherwise have their place. However, that place is NOT performing law enforcement duties in the continental United States.
I did not participate with the Katrina cleanup, but I know two people that did, one was a line worker who had a personal bodyguard 24/7 for the two months he was there, and one was in the NG. Lineman said his guy was great, minded his own business, and allowed him to focus on his work. Thumbs up to "Paul".
My friend in the NG had a wildly different (horror) story. I am really not sure how much of it I can post in public like this, safe to say they viewed US Citizens as "the enemy" and treated them as such, far more often than was called for. Civil rights violations, and probably what would be classified as "domestic terrorism" if they weren't on FEMA's payroll at the time were the norm.
My experience with contractors has varied wildly. I believe every single one I spoke with was ex military (95% army or Corps)
Most were very quiet, professional, and efficient. The one issue we had with them is they tended to view locals, (Afghans) as black or white, either completely friendly, or the enemy. (More often the latter) One actually took the time to give me a tour of his whirlybird when he saw me being curious.
I think DoD contractors and otherwise have their place. However, that place is NOT performing law enforcement duties in the continental United States.
I did not participate with the Katrina cleanup, but I know two people that did, one was a line worker who had a personal bodyguard 24/7 for the two months he was there, and one was in the NG. Lineman said his guy was great, minded his own business, and allowed him to focus on his work. Thumbs up to "Paul".
My friend in the NG had a wildly different (horror) story. I am really not sure how much of it I can post in public like this, safe to say they viewed US Citizens as "the enemy" and treated them as such, far more often than was called for. Civil rights violations, and probably what would be classified as "domestic terrorism" if they weren't on FEMA's payroll at the time were the norm.
I understand your logic in this post and will agree with you to the fact that there are some bad apples. However we were striding down a path of calling them all lawless vigilant mercenaries. Which is not true. The fact remains that you will find that guy in every profession there is on this earth. From doctors and malpractice to cops and military in unjust killing. However they are always the exception and make the rest look bad. Also guess which one makes the news? The upstanding private contractor or the dirtbag?
alienb1212
03-04-12, 17:23
I understand your logic in this post and will agree with you to the fact that there are some bad apples. However we were striding down a path of calling them all lawless vigilant mercenaries. Which is not true. The fact remains that you will find that guy in every profession there is on this earth. From doctors and malpractice to cops and military in unjust killing. However they are always the exception and make the rest look bad. Also guess which one makes the news? The upstanding private contractor or the dirtbag?
True enough. I still however never want to see them operating in a LE capacity over on this side of the pond.
True enough. I still however never want to see them operating in a LE capacity over on this side of the pond.
I think we can all agree to that logic. If that were to happen its gotten real bad and i'm in the mountains though. I would still wish to believe that they would be there strictly to stop lawless people from doing very bad things to good people but we all know where orders come and not if the common sense is there to disobey said orders. I personally know a bunch that would walk of the job in a heartbeat for what's right.
Dirk Williams
03-04-12, 18:31
Looks like I pushed some buttons, sorry boys. I guess there were no BW in N/O during Katrina. Just like State isn't looking for guards/contractors in the Fema camps recently
No I don't have problems with contractors. I know several and am amused by their Im a bad ass mother****er contractor, dog and pony show.
I do have problems with contractors who kill while driving down the roads of Iraq shooting at any car that they think may be a threat. Kinda sporting isn't it.
I do have a problem with their actions in Katrina and not being held accountable. But no more then those police officers who fled leaving a community who counts on them in crisis.
Like I said had I been the investigator working any of those cases and the facts learned in the investigation were confirmed. I may not have arrested them on the spot, however I dam sure would have sent the reports to the DA for review, recommending prosecution.
Contractors/Merc. It's about money not honor. If they were hunting honor they would have stayed active duty and did it for the right reasons, not money.
Mike Ive learned in my 55 years on earth that once a man sells himself for money, its very very difficult to go back.
To you here who are contractors if push comes to shove and State or your firm calls you up to do the unthinkable, what side will you stand on?
Peace.
Dirk
Looks like I pushed some buttons, sorry boys. I guess there were no BW in N/O during Katrina. Just like State isn't looking for guards/contractors in the Fema camps recently
No I don't have problems with contractors. I know several and am amused by their Im a bad ass mother****er contractor, dog and pony show.
I do have problems with contractors who kill while driving down the roads of Iraq shooting at any car that they think may be a threat. Kinda sporting isn't it.
I do have a problem with their actions in Katrina and not being held accountable. But no more then those police officers who fled leaving a community who counts on them in crisis.
Like I said had I been the investigator working any of those cases and the facts learned in the investigation were confirmed. I may not have arrested them on the spot, however I dam sure would have sent the reports to the DA for review, recommending prosecution.
Contractors/Merc. It's about money not honor. If they were hunting honor they would have stayed active duty and did it for the right reasons, not money.
Mike Ive learned in my 55 years on earth that once a man sells himself for money, its very very difficult to go back.
To you here who are contractors if push comes to shove and State or your firm calls you up to do the unthinkable, what side will you stand on?
Peace.
Dirk
It sounds to me that you know absolutely jack shit about what you're talking about as you cited the exact instances that made the media. If you have no personal experience in the matter then you probably shouldn't talk. If your buddies are that guy i'm sorry for your misfortune. As someone that's been around the community id appreciate you stepping out. You probably don'thave a ****ing idea what reasons they have for doing it. I'm not mad just don't believe in spreading less on account if shit I see in the media. I can tell that you are for the fact you have absolutely no facts to prove your slander. There are instances of bad guys doing stupid things but like I said its the exception and there's one in every profession.
It sounds to me that you know absolutely jack shit about what you're talking about as you cited the exact instances that made the media. If you have no personal experience in the matter then you probably shouldn't talk. If your buddies are that guy i'm sorry for your misfortune. As someone that's been around the community id appreciate you stepping out. You probably don'thave a ****ing idea what reasons they have for doing it. I'm not mad just don't believe in spreading less on account if shit I see in the media. I can tell that you are for the fact you have absolutely no facts to prove your slander. There are instances of bad guys doing stupid things but like I said its the exception and there's one in every profession.
I agree....i think his tin foil might be so tight it's killing brain cells.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk
Looks like I pushed some buttons, sorry boys. I guess there were no BW in N/O during Katrina. Just like State isn't looking for guards/contractors in the Fema camps recently
No I don't have problems with contractors. I know several and am amused by their Im a bad ass mother****er contractor, dog and pony show.
I do have problems with contractors who kill while driving down the roads of Iraq shooting at any car that they think may be a threat. Kinda sporting isn't it.
I do have a problem with their actions in Katrina and not being held accountable. But no more then those police officers who fled leaving a community who counts on them in crisis.
Like I said had I been the investigator working any of those cases and the facts learned in the investigation were confirmed. I may not have arrested them on the spot, however I dam sure would have sent the reports to the DA for review, recommending prosecution.
Contractors/Merc. It's about money not honor. If they were hunting honor they would have stayed active duty and did it for the right reasons, not money.
Mike Ive learned in my 55 years on earth that once a man sells himself for money, its very very difficult to go back.
To you here who are contractors if push comes to shove and State or your firm calls you up to do the unthinkable, what side will you stand on?
Peace.
Dirk
Say what you want, you are spouting ignorance. I am sure no one has ever had anything negative to say about you as a police officer even though they have not a day of experience doing your job and I am sure that there are no bad cops anywhere, just misunderstandings.
Until you have worked as a contractor don't act like you know anything about them outside of some BS AARs you had the opportunity to read. Did those AARs mention the civil liberties trampled on by those wearing the badge, or the guns confiscated by officers of the law escorted by National Guardsman?
And no one has ever been jealous of a contractor because of the paycheck they take home.
DOS isn't recruiting contractors for FEMA camps, quit watching Alex Jones. The FEMA facility solicitations have been put out by DHS not State.
Why don't you get amped up about DOE security, most of them are 'contractors'. Or how about all the private security that covers domestic mil bases and strategic assets like Radford Army Ammunition Plant, etc. They are just as much 'contractors' as most of the so called mercenaries you are referring to being so evil.
Ignorance, you know not what you speak of. I am done with this conversation. You have reinforced the reason I can only take this site in short bits of a few days before I take a break for a few weeks. The noise has a tendency to drown out the signal.
I think i'm going to take the same cue and back away from this thread a well. I'm above stereotyping at this point and nothing good comes from it.
Dirk Williams
03-04-12, 22:16
Sounds like a few of you got your Wheaties pissed in. Anger issues or simple denial.
Maybe two people here actually know me. If you do you know Im straight up, and never ever taken the easy path in my life. That we don't agree about these simple issues is amusing to me.
Im not sure if your protecting the money or the reputation. Don't get me wrong there are many very honorable Merc's out there. Those are the ones you don't here about .
It's the **** up's that get all the press, There seems to be a metric ton of that group.
Mike as to bad cops they have to be the first held accountable. Law enforcement has to have the cleanest closet in the community. I know that's not always the case. I'd say their are as many dirty cops as there are dirty Merc's.
The difference being that anyone who goes into policing has a much much higher standard to uphold it's the trust of the peole that's at stake.
If any of you have evidence that differs from what Ive stated please share it. If Im wrong I have no problem pulling my horns in. It's just not that important to me.
Good night lady's. See you in the morning.
K.L. Davis
03-04-12, 23:13
Good night lady's. See you in the morning.
Maybe not.
I am putting this one to bed for a while...
I know this one is closed, but I wanted to say something. You have no clue what you aretalking about. I have been working as a contractor since 2005.
I have had friends and associtaes killed overseas assisting the military and the efforts of the USG overseas.
I think you need to step back and quit reading the conspiracy theory websites or seek other sources of info.
Looks like I pushed some buttons, sorry boys. I guess there were no BW in N/O during Katrina. Just like State isn't looking for guards/contractors in the Fema camps recently
No I don't have problems with contractors. I know several and am amused by their Im a bad ass mother****er contractor, dog and pony show.
I do have problems with contractors who kill while driving down the roads of Iraq shooting at any car that they think may be a threat. Kinda sporting isn't it.
I do have a problem with their actions in Katrina and not being held accountable. But no more then those police officers who fled leaving a community who counts on them in crisis.
Like I said had I been the investigator working any of those cases and the facts learned in the investigation were confirmed. I may not have arrested them on the spot, however I dam sure would have sent the reports to the DA for review, recommending prosecution.
Contractors/Merc. It's about money not honor. If they were hunting honor they would have stayed active duty and did it for the right reasons, not money.
Mike Ive learned in my 55 years on earth that once a man sells himself for money, its very very difficult to go back.
To you here who are contractors if push comes to shove and State or your firm calls you up to do the unthinkable, what side will you stand on?
Peace.
Dirk
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.