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Irish
03-02-11, 00:02
Often times survival discussions reference a "SHTF" situation in the hypothetical without really delving into what that might truly mean. Discussions of what this might entail would definitely be enlightening but watching actual video of real incidents in the United States should give you a small indicator of how bad it really will get in a time where people are really desperate for water, food, shelter or supplies.

I'm not making any dire predictions but the fact of the matter is there isn't much standing in the way of rioting, looting and mob mentality taking over large parts of our urban cities. New Orleans after Katrina would be a very good example of what people could expect to be dealing with after a major catastrophe or a SHTF situation.

Are you prepared for this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWW2dQ4tld4&feature=player_embedded

As for me I'm hanging with the Koreans. ;)

High Desert
03-02-11, 12:38
It has been said the civilization is a very thin veneer that covers a rather nasty society and I agree.

I have come to the conclusion that should I ever have to defend my rural property against a group of people it will most likely NOT be, the Chinese, Al Qaeda, NATO troops, or secret government agents in black helicopters. No, it will be the average unprepared Joe and Jane Q. Citizen after they have not ate a meal in a week. At this point they will believe that they have the “right” to take my stores and livestock for the good of the mankind.

Last month, power was out for 20,000 residents of the county I live in. After 24 hours people were furious that their power was not on. You would assume this was city dwellers only. Yet the most vocal person I saw on the news was a small “rancher” with 100 head of cattle and horses. He could not pump water or keep it from freezing because of no electricity.

If you have the responsibility of 100 animals, why don’t you have a generator? Or a bucket to haul water? Or an ax to chop through the ice in the stock tanks?
Hard to believe 100 years ago we had pioneers here.

Am I prepared? Short term….. yes. Long term….no. One or two families wont be able to hold out on there own against these folks.

Just my .02
HD

500grains
03-02-11, 14:08
[QUOTE=High Desert;926382 One or two families wont be able to hold out on there own against these folks.
[/QUOTE]

1. Can the hordes reach your property without dying first? For example, if you live in Tuscon, I don't think you need to worry about vermin from LA because they will die in the Mojave, even if they make it out of the LA city limits.

2. Can you make your area a harder target than other areas? Such as with stuff that blocks the road but is very hard to move, removal of a bridge, placement of a few competent riflemen, etc.

ColoradoKevin
03-02-11, 15:37
after reading your posts I started thinking about my situation as well. I live in a moderate size city (roughly 120,000). I think the first thing that would be looted would be the stores. They seem like a faceless entity at times. I think people would go for those first thinking it is less "wrong." As time moves on and people get more desperate they will start trying to take from people and their homes. I think I only have enough supplies to get through the initial period and then I am suddenly in the boat with everyone else. I think I would be forced to be on the move once my supplies ran out. Probably at the most dangerous time.

I may need to look at my supplies and plan again. Thanks for bringing this up.

HES
03-02-11, 15:49
Am I prepared? Short term….. yes. Long term….no. One or two families wont be able to hold out on there own against these folks.

Just my .02
HD
Make some friends. Just saying ;)

Seriously work on networking, identifying people who you would see as an asset to your over all survival and invite them to stay with you should the need ever arise.

hickuleas
03-02-11, 16:04
It would be hard to prepare for something like this. But i am as ready as i will ever be. Glad to be out in the country.

controlledpairs2
03-02-11, 16:31
I'm hanging with the Koreans too!

Rmplstlskn
03-02-11, 16:38
there isn't much standing in the way of rioting, looting and mob mentality taking over large parts of our urban cities.

I think that is the key right there...

I know many live in urban and heavily-built up areas due to economics (work), I assure you, I know, as I CHOSE to take a huge pay hit and lack of quality employers to live where I live, and I don't even live SERIOUSLY rural, like Jeremiah Johnson type rural, just farm & ranch rural.

But that is the decisions we all make... How serious does one think the veneer of civilized society is too thin for comfort? I made mine...

Rmpl

Irish
03-02-11, 18:22
I think that is the key right there...

We're doing research right now and trying to figure out where exactly we'll be moving to within the next year. Definitely more rural and where we can grow our own food, have a well, etc.

Ironman8
03-02-11, 18:25
We're doing research right now and trying to figure out where exactly we'll be moving to within the next year. Definitely more rural and where we can grow our own food, have a well, etc.

I don't know if we have a year before we see stuff like this....

Irish
03-02-11, 18:29
I don't know if we have a year before we see stuff like this....

Neither do I...

Mob robberies will become more frequent. http://bcove.me/a96o8p2a

Katrina style looting will be prevalent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RVHDlPqZWE&feature=player_embedded

Things of this nature will seem trivial. http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/9-shocking-examples-of-black-friday-violence-is-this-a-foretaste-of-the-economic-riots-we-can-expect-when-the-financial-system-collapses

D Golden
03-02-11, 18:31
I was 15 in July of `67 in Newark , N.J. . You better believe i`m ready, i never let my guard down since.

Ironman8
03-02-11, 18:33
Everything is tied to gas...and I mean everything...as gas prices go up, so do our chances of civil unrest/shtf or whatever you want to call it...

I wish so bad that I were already out in the country, but at least I'm not in the inner city...

Irish
03-02-11, 18:43
Everything is tied to gas...and I mean everything...as gas prices go up, so do our chances of civil unrest/shtf or whatever you want to call it...

I had that exact conversation with my wife this past week! She likes the SW for the weather... I'm leaning towards Idaho myself.

Heidevolk
03-02-11, 18:49
Nice how they stole guns from productive/normal/honest citizens. That does absolutely nothing but prevent them from defending themselves.

What would you do if the police came to your neighborhood to confiscate your weapons, while a few miles away criminals were looting and killing honest citizens?

Belmont31R
03-02-11, 18:55
I feel pretty vulnerable where Im at since its suburbia, and my land is slightly bigger than a shoe box. No way to use it to grow food or anything else, and we don't have the money to move right now or anytime soon. I grew up on 3 acres with horses, chickens, dogs, goats, ect. Could easily make due on that land with some resources.


Anyways I don't really think theres any adequate way to prepare for this even if you live out in the rural areas. If I had the land Id be already growing as much of our own food as possible so if the grocery stores are no longer sources of food it would be an easier transition. Im not sure how easy people think it is to completely live with no outside help or additional resources along the way but it would be basically pioneer living with having to worry about people coming out of the cities trying to settle somewhere.


Basically our society has evolved to the point where almost every is integrated, and very few people have the means, ability, and skills to go without any outside help the way the pioneers did, and even those guys had towns they could go to for things they couldn't make on their own. There was still trade just not like we have now. If even one part of our system fails it can bring the rest of society to a screeching halt. I can do without electricity, TV, gas but I can't do without food for a few months...no way to grow my own and my neighbors are 10ft away. Even if I did try to go something Id have to have 24/hr a day guard over it.


If something catastrophic happened to this country, and things broke down to that level I doubt even 20% of the population would make it a year. Probably less.


The good news is Ive already networked with some neighbors and ID'ed a few who are making similar preps. Even in a suburban neighborhood outside a major city you can find people to come together, and pool resources, work together....it can be tough finding them but they are out there. Its taken a while to get to know people well enough to talk about this stuff and see who has what, make plans, ect. Ive known one neighbor for a couple of years and just now got invited to a group canning session and bulk buy of food. I put out a Gadsen flag out back and its amazing how many people comment on it, and its a way to break the ice with people.

Irish
03-02-11, 19:02
Nice how they stole guns from productive/normal/honest citizens. That does absolutely nothing but prevent them from defending themselves.
I'm sure everyone agrees with you on that.

What would you do if the police came to your neighborhood to confiscate your weapons, while a few miles away criminals were looting and killing honest citizens?
Let's not go down that road. It's a quick way to get this thread locked and we all have our own feelings on the subject that are probably fairly similar. ;)

Heidevolk
03-02-11, 19:18
Let's not go down that road. It's a quick way to get this thread locked and we all have our own feelings on the subject that are probably fairly similar. ;)

Valid point. It was my first knee-jerk concern after watching the video.

It seems like best option would be to comply and hand over any firearms they know about and have access to self-defense tools in other locations.

Edit: I wonder what they would do if you just didn't answer the door and played "not home"

How do confiscations get carried out? I wonder if most are just -
*Knock knock*
Q: We're here to confiscate any firearms, do you have any?
A: Yes
*Confiscated*

JStor
03-02-11, 19:41
Rioting people and ordinary strangers won't be the worst. It'll be people you know, begging for your help, and as decent human beings, we won't be able to say, no.... That means it would be best to have extra food for giving and bartering.

It doesn't matter to me if someone is wearing a uniform or a Sunday-go-to meeting-suit. Any attempt at disarming people will result in war.

Fried Chicken Blowout
03-02-11, 19:42
Make some friends. Just saying ;)

Seriously work on networking, identifying people who you would see as an asset to your over all survival and invite them to stay with you should the need ever arise.



Exactly. Be a host for those you can trust and those you train with. If you have land and livestock, then host another few families and have designated roles and plans. Then when the hordes of hungry morons come running, you'll be more prepared to defend your property.

hickuleas
03-02-11, 20:02
Without a large group most will fail. I have several friends but only a few have realized what could happen. Luckily years ago i bought and inherited some rural properties that are probably well suited for our needs. It will hard to turn people away but if you haven't contributed to the cause you won't be allowed to stay. Wish my group had more in it but leary of people we don't know.

K.L. Davis
03-02-11, 20:36
Let's not go down that road. It's a quick way to get this thread locked and we all have our own feelings on the subject that are probably fairly similar. ;)

Sage like advise there :)

It is a good topic, and thanks for keeping it on track - If nothing else, M4C does seem to police its own ranks rather well.

HES
03-02-11, 20:45
Im pretty much in the same situation as Belmont31R. I live in that suburban area that straddles the main part of suburbia and the rural sections of the greater area. This means I've got a small lot with plenty of neighbors, most of whom will be useless. Of course my economic ability to move to a more rural area is some where between slim and none.

However I have started to identify and network with neighbors who I feel are trustworthy and who also desire to "be prepared". So our small subdivision has some elements that might make a difference. Some is better than none. Plus I've started to network with folks form the BSA and other groups to increase the size of the "network". We even got lucky enough to know someone of a similar mind with 125 acres about 10 miles away. So there is that option being bandied about if we can make the trek there. Again some is better than none. That little bit of prep might make all the difference when others have not made much in the way of planning.

Now what would I like to see? Someone with the cash to start a subdivision some where with maybe 3 to 5 acre lots for maybe 50 families with the intent of everyone being armed. Think of a Kennesaw, GA minded HOA and bylaws. Yeah I know I have better chances of winning the lottery but a guy can have his dreams can't he?

Heidevolk
03-02-11, 20:45
Any attempt at disarming people will result in war.

But war isn't always won through the use of force. There might be better methods that would allow a victim of confiscation to stay safe and avoid confrontation or even appear compliant.

I think situational awareness and just seeing it coming might help a lot.

Irish
03-02-11, 21:06
Now what would I like to see? Someone with the cash to start a subdivision some where with maybe 3 to 5 acre lots for maybe 50 families with the intent of everyone being armed. Think of a Kennesaw, GA minded HOA and bylaws. Yeah I know I have better chances of winning the lottery but a guy can have his dreams can't he?

Originally, Front Sight was going to be a community of gun owners similar to what you're describing, about 30 minutes outside of Las Vegas. They described it as being "the safest city in America" and it actually sounded fairly promising from their marketing. Gun training, ranges, like minded individuals, etc. I do not believe they are currently pursuing this endeavor as there isn't enough millionaires who wanted to blow a fortune on a small plot of land in the middle of the desert. Obviously their marketing and firearms training are not looked upon favorably at M4C so let's end all discussion of them with this post. Thanks!

Back to the topic at hand... Stock up on food now! Prices will continue to rise and if anything you'll end up saving yourselves a few bucks down the road if you purchase long shelf life items in the present.

indawire
03-02-11, 21:46
I've thought about the confiscate the guns situation and have a couple of .22's and a single shot 12ga they can have when "they" come nockin :(
Take them and go away. The good stuff isn't so easy to find ;)

Abraxas
03-02-11, 22:02
Rioting people and ordinary strangers won't be the worst. It'll be people you know, begging for your help, and as decent human beings, we won't be able to say, no.... That means it would be best to have extra food for giving and bartering.

This is something that I have thought long and hard about. No good solution to it either.

itsturtle
03-02-11, 22:06
Quick question,

During the riots in the video, were they attempting to confiscate EVERYONES firearms, or just the people they saw with one? The video didn't give me the impression that they were going door to door knocking and looking for guns. I can see how standing outside with a rifle would draw attention, but in a situation like that I would rather lock the door and turn out lights. I was a wee bit too young and lived a bit far from the LA riots to remember much.

Rmplstlskn
03-02-11, 22:28
Anyways I don't really think theres any adequate way to prepare for this even if you live out in the rural areas.

Word! :dirol:

Rural has its own kind of looters and threats... Rural people does NOT mean prepared or sustainable... My closest neighbor, whom I know to have ZERO preps, no garden, nothing sustainable, as well as politics I abhor, and I suspect low, self-serving morals when it goes south, is my biggest concern. But fortunately they are not popular with anyone else around here either, so maybe the problem would be contained...

So even rural has it's drawbacks and problems... But I suspect they will be slower in manifestation and intensity than urban, so hopefully containable or resolvable...

Rmpl

Irish
03-02-11, 22:58
During the riots in the video, were they attempting to confiscate EVERYONES firearms, or just the people they saw with one? The video didn't give me the impression that they were going door to door knocking and looking for guns. I can see how standing outside with a rifle would draw attention, but in a situation like that I would rather lock the door and turn out lights. I was a wee bit too young and lived a bit far from the LA riots to remember much.

There were no confiscations of firearms that I am aware of during the Rodney King riots. There were confiscations in 1 or 2 of the videos that were from New Orleans post-Katrina. Police were going door to door, forcing people from their homes and confiscating firearms, these are facts and can not be refuted. If you'd like to learn more I'd suggest using your Google-Fu as this is directly related to law enforcement and that's a no go here at M4C.

Irish
03-02-11, 23:02
This is something that I have thought long and hard about. No good solution to it either.

It may sound selfish but I will not be giving any food to anyone outside of my immediate family. I've spent lots of time, energy and money in an effort to take care of my family and develop contingency plans in the case of an emergency. I will not sacrifice my family's welfare for the sake of another. During a prolonged real emergency I think this would be most people's mindset.

Extra beans & bullets for barter is definitely a good idea.

itsturtle
03-02-11, 23:29
There were no confiscations of firearms that I am aware of during the Rodney King riots. There were confiscations in 1 or 2 of the videos that were from New Orleans post-Katrina. Police were going door to door, forcing people from their homes and confiscating firearms, these are facts and can not be refuted. If you'd like to learn more I'd suggest using your Google-Fu as this is directly related to law enforcement and that's a no go here at M4C.

Ah I see. My cellphone hates youtube lately so I wasn't really sure where the videos were from. Makes a little more sense considering the evacuations. I was just curious.

uwe1
03-03-11, 00:25
1. Can the hordes reach your property without dying first? For example, if you live in Tuscon, I don't think you need to worry about vermin from LA because they will die in the Mojave, even if they make it out of the LA city limits.


The problem with being in Tucson is that there are plenty of "vermin" (crime and gang elements) in south Tucson.

uwe1
03-03-11, 00:28
We're doing research right now and trying to figure out where exactly we'll be moving to within the next year. Definitely more rural and where we can grow our own food, have a well, etc.

You're going to move? I thought that you had posted not too long ago about recently purchasing a house?

I can understand your concerns. Las Vegas isn't going to be a good place if society starts to flush down the toilet.

uwe1
03-03-11, 00:30
It may sound selfish but I will not be giving any food to anyone outside of my immediate family. I've spent lots of time, energy and money in an effort to take care of my family and develop contingency plans in the case of an emergency. I will not sacrifice my family's welfare for the sake of another. During a prolonged real emergency I think this would be most people's mindset.

Extra beans & bullets for barter is definitely a good idea.

There isn't anything selfish about this mindset. The hard part will be if word got out that you had supplies, then you might be forced to defend your stores.

500grains
03-03-11, 00:32
What would you do if the police came to your neighborhood to confiscate your weapons, while a few miles away criminals were looting and killing honest citizens?

It would be important to communicate to the police that they are now on the wrong side and that they should re-evaluate their position / view.

Irish
03-03-11, 00:35
The problem with being in Tucson is that there are plenty of "vermin" (crime and gang elements) in south Tucson.

Along with a flood of Mexicans pouring over the border.

500grains
03-03-11, 00:37
So stock up on hot sauce.

uwe1
03-03-11, 00:46
Along with a flood of Mexicans pouring over the border.

I thought of that, but I didn't want to go there. Unfortunately, I'm firmly rooted in this city (I like it here). Hopefully, being on the NW side will provide a decent buffer. There are a lot of gun owners and hunters in the surrounding neighborhoods.

uwe1
03-03-11, 00:48
So stock up on hot sauce.

Man, you want me to provide the meat, beans, rice AND hot sauce too?

Gatorbait
03-03-11, 00:50
Often times survival discussions reference a "SHTF" situation in the hypothetical without really delving into what that might truly mean. Discussions of what this might entail would definitely be enlightening but watching actual video of real incidents in the United States should give you a small indicator of how bad it really will get in a time where people are really desperate for water, food, shelter or supplies.

I'm not making any dire predictions but the fact of the matter is there isn't much standing in the way of rioting, looting and mob mentality taking over large parts of our urban cities. New Orleans after Katrina would be a very good example of what people could expect to be dealing with after a major catastrophe or a SHTF situation.

Are you prepared for this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWW2dQ4tld4&feature=player_embedded

As for me I'm hanging with the Koreans. ;)

I think the Koreans showed very "effective resolutions" to their "issues"...hehehe....

IMHO, the overall recent interest in personal preperations has really ramped up. Not in the old "I'm gonna' drop out, quit my job, buy a truck load of MRE's and guns and run off to the hills" survivalist kinda' way. Instead, I think we are all seeing the new "disaster preparedness on a personal level" while still embedded in modern society approach.

Before, it was buy the guns and ammo. Now, it is buy the "tier 1" guns and the "T2" ammo....AND take the precision rifle and tactical pistol courses, AND get all of the latest gear for it. Talk about a growth industries....what are all of these non-mil, non-leo people doing(including myself, of course) taking courses(not cheap) like these? We should all be chasing little white balls around the links, or fuzzy green ones on the court; not trying to shoot carbines in twisted ways, from underneath cars. And it's not just a few monkeys out there doing this...These classes are filling up faster and faster each month, all over the country.

I don't know exactly why preparedness is growing(place your favorite bet on that), but there is an ever growing part of society who are tuning into it, no doubt about it............

Perhaps we should ask the Koreans for some pointers????????

gb

uwe1
03-03-11, 00:55
Perhaps we should ask the Koreans for some pointers????????

They definitely had their mindset straight and were determined to protect what was theirs. By the way, check out the pictures in the AARs for the training classes taking place in Chino Hills, CA (TigerSwan in particular). There are a lot of Koreans in those classes.

itsturtle
03-03-11, 01:09
They definitely had their mindset straight and were determined to protect what was theirs.

I can't say I agree with this. I am sure the video does not do enough justice, but it looked almost as if they were firing into a crowd. I understand the need and right to protect what is yours, but their actions seemed a little off to me. The only reason I could justify their actions would be if someone was shooting at them. If that were the case, why were they in the streets and not taking cover in their store? I wonder if they shot someone who was unarmed and didn't even go in their stores.

Abraxas
03-03-11, 08:21
It may sound selfish but I will not be giving any food to anyone outside of my immediate family. I've spent lots of time, energy and money in an effort to take care of my family and develop contingency plans in the case of an emergency. I will not sacrifice my family's welfare for the sake of another. During a prolonged real emergency I think this would be most people's mindset.

Extra beans & bullets for barter is definitely a good idea.

I should have stated it better, I guess it would be more accurate to state that there is no nice solution

Abraxas
03-03-11, 08:30
How many of you already have a garden going? I know that many keep some food on hand, but how many could replace it without going out for it? I know people that are buying the non-hybrid heirloom seeds, but not planting them. What good does that do, it takes time to grow a garden. Do you have enough supplies to wait for your garden to grow? Just a thought

High Desert
03-03-11, 09:04
How many of you already have a garden going? I know that many keep some food on hand, but how many could replace it without going out for it? I know people that are buying the non-hybrid heirloom seeds, but not planting them. What good does that do, it takes time to grow a garden. Do you have enough supplies to wait for your garden to grow? Just a thought

Exactly. I have been working on self reliance for 10 years and in reality its a lot of work. (that I enjoy). Even the best laid plans can be hit by Murphy. Last years late cold weather and frosts toasted my garden. Our yield was 10% of the year before. It takes time to build up the soil and learn from your mistakes. This is also why when you have good years you need to put up everything you can.

Also the point I was trying to make in post #2 was that most Americans, rural or otherwise are unprepared and they are the mass danger. Maybe not the most dangerous in terms of training but the most in sheer volume.

This is a good topic, but its a tough one when you really look deep into it.

HD

JStor
03-03-11, 09:06
Valid point, and it is important. Gardens need time to grow. That is why food storage is important no matter where you live.

People need to start learning to use dry grains and beans because they can be stored for a very long time in sealed pails. Canned goods aren't long term, but they are handy for short term use as long as they're rotated. Freeze dried is viable, but it won't meet all your needs.

I am a fan of brown rice, and I make various stir fried dishes with it. Pinto and navy beans are another and also red wheat for flour. Fix a meal with them occasionally and start developing the taste buds and recipes needed.

We grow potatoes, corn, squash, carrots, lettuce and tomatoes every year, and try to have things planted by the end of May.

Heidevolk
03-03-11, 09:35
Most Americans, rural or otherwise are unprepared and they are the mass danger. Maybe not the most dangerous in terms of training but the most in sheer volume

Perfect definition of the reality behind the "Zombie myth"

Irish
03-03-11, 09:59
How many of you already have a garden going? I know that many keep some food on hand, but how many could replace it without going out for it? I know people that are buying the non-hybrid heirloom seeds, but not planting them. What good does that do, it takes time to grow a garden. Do you have enough supplies to wait for your garden to grow? Just a thought

Some very good points! Where I currently live I can't have a garden due to property size. I am in the process of getting stocked up to start a garden in the near future. I'm also going to be purchasing several books dealing with gardening, live stock and country living. I think it's a good topic for another thread which I'll start now.

uwe1
03-03-11, 10:40
I can't say I agree with this. I am sure the video does not do enough justice, but it looked almost as if they were firing into a crowd. I understand the need and right to protect what is yours, but their actions seemed a little off to me. The only reason I could justify their actions would be if someone was shooting at them. If that were the case, why were they in the streets and not taking cover in their store? I wonder if they shot someone who was unarmed and didn't even go in their stores.

I agree that randomly shooting into a crowd of innocent people is definitely wrong. However, we are talking about a full blown riot. As you can see in the video, these people were assaulting people and destroying property. This was not your average peaceful protest, but a violent mob. You don't have to be shot at to reply with deadly force. The threat of violence, people approaching you with sticks and knives, is usually enough to justify self defense in many cases.
I lived in greater LA at the time of the riots and know the general sense of fear amd anxiety most business owners were experiencing. I personally know a Korean family that had their business burned down and looted during the riots because no one was there defending it.

THCDDM4
03-03-11, 11:38
As far as food preparedness is concerned, think about having an indoor food gorwing operation to back-up your outdoor one. The reasoning behind having an indoor food growing facility is because it is a lot easier to keep safe from outside intervention. In a civil unrest scenario, outdoor food is going to be picked and eaten very quickly, and hard to gaurd. No matter where you live really...

I'm not saying to ditch your outdoor garden by any means, just to have the lights, fans and controllers set up and tuned to grow indoors when necessary; and always run your system at 10% while not really needing to run it. That way you can just amp production up and not have to start your crops from scratch. Keep up with sustaining your crops, not just buying new seeds. The ability to regenerate crops is key to survival, growing from seed is hard enough, but recultivating seeds time and time again can be quite time/effort consuming to say the least. If you plan on starting when the SHTF; you've already lost the battle.

Choose your crops wisely to save space and get the most nutrients out of your food/best utilize your equipment; this may mean growing veggies you would not really care to eat normally, but in a bad situation, food is food and nutrients are nutrients.


My family always poked fun at me for being "over prepared" which I find to be a misnomer. In the last year or so they have gotten quiet on the subject of demeaning my plans and gotten more involved in the process', asking a lot more questions rather than poking so much fun.

Basic preparedness is great; But being the over prepared guy I am, generally speaking, I took it to the limit of my means. I have a compound that has defenses built into it, escape tunnels dug out, burried generators and exhaust baffles; solar/wind/water power with battery back-up array, a well, fresh flowing water on my property, the ability to camoflauge my house and surrounding structures; and some not too friendly places to be caught up in on my grounds, that only the family knows about and can manuever around.

When; yes WHEN it all goes down, I have the ability to harbor a small community (My entire family, plus those who will more than likely be with them); that can self susatin for quite a while. The veggies, grains/cereals and fruits are already growing and being canned/stored/rotated constantly.

I put up a solar array, wind turbines; and I am just now finishing work on some water turbine/Tesla water engine stuff to generate power from my stream nearby. Bottom line, if the grid goes down; I got power as long as I have wind water and sun. It is all hooked into a battery array that is quite large. I have a well with redundent systems to make sure and be able to to have fresh water, and I have back-up drums of fresh water as well; not to mention a still to re-purpose urine.

I have a working home brewery/distillery (I am a commercial distiller as well, fyi) that has a bigger capacity than the local 3-barrel brewery in town. Alcohol is key in bad situations; for several reasons.

I have a cellar stocked with wine, alcohol, cheeses (We make our own; cheese, wine, beer, liquor, clothes, rope, thread, wick, candles, etc. Anything and everything we can find the time to make on our own), anything an everything you could imagine as far as booze is concerned. I have a grainery burried that will keep grains fresh for the rest of my life.

My whole life people have been telling me I am a fool for putting so much of my life/resources into doing this. But the joke is on them. Not only am I as prepared as I can be for the eventual bad times, but I have saved tons of cash by making everything and anything I can for myself. Not to mention the benefit of having my family close together working together for eachother; the television is rarely used in my home. And I even sell energy to the energy company because I create more than I can use or store in my system.

Next is just to get my ass out there full time (About 1/2 out in the stix, and 1/2 in the city currently) and away form the city, which I hope to do by the middle of this year sometime, but that may be pushed out to the end of the year. Then I can focus more on keeping livestock, chickens, pigs, goats, etc. I do keep some goats and chickens now, but would love to expand to cows, sheep and pigs by the end of the year.

I had to build a small workshop for equipment maintenance and the like, but it is evolving into a 1-in-all workshop now that I can build pretty much anything in; wish I could afford a cnc machine; that would effing rock! Got all the basic for wood and metal working though.

I built an outdoor composting bathroom that helps me cut down on my cost of growing nutrients, you'd be surprised how much "stuff" is in your fecies and urine that can be re-used. I just added a methane collector (M4C's own VonRhyedt Mentioned the system to me, and after some research I built it on up; great idea Vonrheydt! Thanks!) as well, so I can start utilizing my own poops power!!!!!!!! :D

Really the hardest part for me was locating and purchasing the medical supplies I required. It is hard to get a doctor to doll out perscriptions for pain pills and penicillin when there is no immediate need for such medicine. I had to go to the vet (Lost of talking, lots of persuading, lots of educating the vet to get what I needed) and sometimes other sources to get what is required for a real medical emergency kit. Without the ability to treat infection; survival gets really hard, and how. Just recently I started reading dental books to better prepare for that inevitability; basic tools are easy to come by, but expensive as hell!

I did all of this over a long period of time, with a lot of help from friends and family. It isn't impossible to get yourself in a better prepared sate of mind and state of being, it just requires some saccrifice. WHile all my college friends were out at the bars trying to pick up chicks and get drunk waisting their dough; going to sporting events and watching television; I was saving, preparing, buying water filtration systms, buying genrators, piecing together my own PV panels, scrounging through junk piles to find good marine batteries that still had enough life to re-use and building supplies; buying long-term stored food bit by bit and rotating it; diggin through construction dumpsters for building materials (Over 1/2 of my home was built with stuff I found on site/in dumpsters that was "trash" to someone else) and for copper wire to recycle for extra funds. You'd be very suprised at the average waste on a commercial construction project. Seriously!


Having a plan is the best thing one can do, and being able to ditch that plan for a new one at a moments notice is key in SHTF type scenarios.

My initial investment was quite large and subsequent investments ove time were medium-large, but now that I own it all, the only cost is maintenance and the occassional addition of new stuff here and there. I make money form the energy I send back down the line, so I am recouping my expenses to a small extent/paying for new systems/equipment. I have done all of this, whilst still being employed full time for 95% of the time. We built 90% of everything by hand by ourselves; with help from friends/family.

Survival during civil unrest is really all about being able to weather the storm; society will flip over and turn on itself, but once the smoke clears, people will want to work together towards common goals again.

All of that and my above explanation doesn't even detail all of my plans/process/equipment/prep.

Sorry for such a long post, but I have given this a lot of thought and wanted to share my experince/preparedness. ( Also I have been sick for a while, since I got better I just wanted to add to M4C again; If my posts can even be considered additions that is...)


Keep on preparing!
Slainte!

itsturtle
03-03-11, 11:41
I agree that randomly shooting into a crowd of innocent people is definitely wrong. However, we are talking about a full blown riot. As you can see in the video, these people were assaulting people and destroying property. This was not your average peaceful protest, but a violent mob. You don't have to be shot at to reply with deadly force. The threat of violence, people approaching you with sticks and knives, is usually enough to justify self defense in many cases.
I lived in greater LA at the time of the riots and know the general sense of fear amd anxiety most business owners were experiencing. I personally know a Korean family that had their business burned down and looted during the riots because no one was there defending it.

Understood, and like I said, the video probably does not do justice. Had there been someone off camera pointing a gun that is one thing. But, in my opinion, a guy 30 yards off with a knife or stick, regardless of the situation, doesn't seem to justify use of force until he gets closer. If I remember correctly, the one guy had a pistol in each hand and they were venturing out into the street instead of staying inside the building they were trying to protect. The idea was sound, but the method was a bit off.

Irish
03-03-11, 11:43
As far as food preparedness is concerned...

I quoted your text and moved it to this thread... https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=927429&posted=1#post927429

Good info!

Ironman8
03-03-11, 12:10
When; yes WHEN it all goes down...

So when do you think is "when"?

You are obviously well ahead of the game....need any "shooters"? ;)

Irish
03-03-11, 12:19
You are obviously well ahead of the game....need any "shooters"? ;)

Yeah, no shit! He's well ahead of the curve.

THCDDM4
03-03-11, 12:40
So when do you think is "when"?

You are obviously well ahead of the game....need any "shooters"? ;)

I think I am right on par maybe a bit behind the game, but that is all relative.

When...

Sooner than I would like. At the rate we are bankrupting our nation (Both physically, morally and otherwise); more than likely by the years end/2nd quarter next year.

EDITED TO ADD: The above timeframe is my worst case scenario; the only scenario I plan for. More than likely the "When" will be sometime between the end of this year and 2015. I can't see lasting much longer than that without some serious changes that would be more pianful than 90% of the population would be interested in undertaking. I fear the downfall of the USA has beenplanned well, and is being implemented even better; with sheep in full tow, all too happy to comply like lambs being led to the slaughter.
Just look at the trend in food/ammo/gold prices, the devaluation of our dollar, our rocket-ship style debt machine, the loss of manufacturing capabilities, spreading our defenses thinner and thinner everyday due to multiple fronts of war, and other altercations around the world, our own nation being split 50/50 against eachother on virtually every single issue under the sun, the increasingly damaging effects of failed social entitlement programs (ie: When those people who have lost the ability to be productive get cut off from the govt teat; watch the **** out! They believe you owe them something and they will come to collect through whatever means necessary.), our own so-called "leaders" continualy legislating us backwards to gain power on the world stage whilst selling off our soverignty; moving farther and farther from the consitution and individual freedom.

It isn't hard to see we are shadowing the fall of the Roman Empire to a certain extent.

We are digging a hole, the question is when is it going to be deep enough to call a grave...

I hope I am very wrong, but one need only look back at what has been to see what is coming.

Shooters always needed! ;)

High Desert
03-03-11, 12:59
Just look at the trend in food/ammo/gold prices, the devaluation of our dollar, our rocket-ship style debt machine, the loss of manufacturing capabilities, spreading our defenses thinner and thinner everyday due to multiple fronts of war, and other altercations around the world, our own nation being split 50/50 against eachother on virtually every single issue under the sun, the increasingly damaging effects of failed social entitlement programs (ie: When those people who have lost the ability to be productive get cut off from the govt teat; watch the **** out!), our own so-called "leaders" continualy legislating us backwards to gain power on the world stage whilst selling off our soverignty; moving farther and farther from the consitution and individual freedom.

;)

I agree with this 100%. That said, I am going out on a limb. I have changed my thinking on the timline and this year changed from 2012 to 2018-2020. I was thinking a sudden currency collapse and now think it will be a slide into the collapse with things getting progressivly worse every year. The Fed will continue with QE3, 4, 5, 6 .....
Prices will continue to go up. The dollar will go down. The end result is the same.

I hope I am right so I have more time finish my preps as I consider myself at the halfway point. I live at my place full time but funds are at an all time low. I have been selling my collector guns for training and the solar system we are putting in this summer. I have the inverter, need batteries and panels next.

HD

500grains
03-03-11, 13:21
Man, you want me to provide the meat, beans, rice AND hot sauce too?

Actually no, I mean if you order some interlopers off your property and they say "Eat me", you would have some hot sauce on hand. :p:cool:;);)

500grains
03-03-11, 13:24
I agree that randomly shooting into a crowd of innocent people is definitely wrong.

Not only that, but if Magpul finds out they will make you send the videos back.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aqTGITGsL._SL75_.jpg

Abraxas
03-03-11, 17:40
Some very good points! Where I currently live I can't have a garden due to property size. I am in the process of getting stocked up to start a garden in the near future. I'm also going to be purchasing several books dealing with gardening, live stock and country living. I think it's a good topic for another thread which I'll start now.

I think that you would be surprised how little land you need to grow food.

Abraxas
03-03-11, 17:50
As far as food preparedness is concerned, think about having an indoor food growing operation to back-up your outdoor one. The reasoning behind having an indoor food growing facility is because it is a lot easier to keep safe from outside intervention. In a civil unrest scenario, outdoor food is going to be picked and eaten very quickly, and hard to guard. No matter where you live really...

I'm not saying to ditch your outdoor garden by any means, just to have the lights, fans and controllers set up and tuned to grow indoors when necessary; and always run your system at 10% while not really needing to run it. That way you can just amp production up and not have to start your crops from scratch. Keep up with sustaining your crops, not just buying new seeds. The ability to regenerate crops is key to survival, growing from seed is hard enough, but recultivating seeds time and time again can be quite time/effort consuming to say the least. If you plan on starting when the SHTF; you've already lost the battle.

Choose your crops wisely to save space and get the most nutrients out of your food/best utilize your equipment; this may mean growing veggies you would not really care to eat normally, but in a bad situation, food is food and nutrients are nutrients.


My family always poked fun at me for being "over prepared" which I find to be a misnomer. In the last year or so they have gotten quiet on the subject of demeaning my plans and gotten more involved in the process', asking a lot more questions rather than poking so much fun.

Basic preparedness is great; But being the over prepared guy I am, generally speaking, I took it to the limit of my means. I have a compound that has defenses built into it, escape tunnels dug out, burried generators and exhaust baffles; solar/wind/water power with battery back-up array, a well, fresh flowing water on my property, the ability to camoflauge my house and surrounding structures; and some not too friendly places to be caught up in on my grounds, that only the family knows about and can manuever around.

When; yes WHEN it all goes down, I have the ability to harbor a small community (My entire family, plus those who will more than likely be with them); that can self susatin for quite a while. The veggies, grains/cereals and fruits are already growing and being canned/stored/rotated constantly.

I put up a solar array, wind turbines; and I am just now finishing work on some water turbine/Tesla water engine stuff to generate power from my stream nearby. Bottom line, if the grid goes down; I got power as long as I have wind water and sun. It is all hooked into a battery array that is quite large. I have a well with redundent systems to make sure and be able to to have fresh water, and I have back-up drums of fresh water as well; not to mention a still to re-purpose urine.

I have a working home brewery/distillery (I am a commercial distiller as well, fyi) that has a bigger capacity than the local 3-barrel brewery in town. Alcohol is key in bad situations; for several reasons.

I have a cellar stocked with wine, alcohol, cheeses (We make our own; cheese, wine, beer, liquor, clothes, rope, thread, wick, candles, etc. Anything and everything we can find the time to make on our own), anything an everything you could imagine as far as booze is concerned. I have a grainery burried that will keep grains fresh for the rest of my life.

My whole life people have been telling me I am a fool for putting so much of my life/resources into doing this. But the joke is on them. Not only am I as prepared as I can be for the eventual bad times, but I have saved tons of cash by making everything and anything I can for myself. Not to mention the benefit of having my family close together working together for eachother; the television is rarely used in my home. And I even sell energy to the energy company because I create more than I can use or store in my system.

Next is just to get my ass out there full time (About 1/2 out in the stix, and 1/2 in the city currently) and away form the city, which I hope to do by the middle of this year sometime, but that may be pushed out to the end of the year. Then I can focus more on keeping livestock, chickens, pigs, goats, etc. I do keep some goats and chickens now, but would love to expand to cows, sheep and pigs by the end of the year.

I had to build a small workshop for equipment maintenance and the like, but it is evolving into a 1-in-all workshop now that I can build pretty much anything in; wish I could afford a cnc machine; that would effing rock! Got all the basic for wood and metal working though.

I built an outdoor composting bathroom that helps me cut down on my cost of growing nutrients, you'd be surprised how much "stuff" is in your fecies and urine that can be re-used. I just added a methane collector (M4C's own VonRhyedt Mentioned the system to me, and after some research I built it on up; great idea Vonrheydt! Thanks!) as well, so I can start utilizing my own poops power!!!!!!!! :D

Really the hardest part for me was locating and purchasing the medical supplies I required. It is hard to get a doctor to doll out perscriptions for pain pills and penicillin when there is no immediate need for such medicine. I had to go to the vet (Lost of talking, lots of persuading, lots of educating the vet to get what I needed) and sometimes other sources to get what is required for a real medical emergency kit. Without the ability to treat infection; survival gets really hard, and how. Just recently I started reading dental books to better prepare for that inevitability; basic tools are easy to come by, but expensive as hell!

I did all of this over a long period of time, with a lot of help from friends and family. It isn't impossible to get yourself in a better prepared sate of mind and state of being, it just requires some saccrifice. WHile all my college friends were out at the bars trying to pick up chicks and get drunk waisting their dough; going to sporting events and watching television; I was saving, preparing, buying water filtration systms, buying genrators, piecing together my own PV panels, scrounging through junk piles to find good marine batteries that still had enough life to re-use and building supplies; buying long-term stored food bit by bit and rotating it; diggin through construction dumpsters for building materials (Over 1/2 of my home was built with stuff I found on site/in dumpsters that was "trash" to someone else) and for copper wire to recycle for extra funds. You'd be very suprised at the average waste on a commercial construction project. Seriously!


Having a plan is the best thing one can do, and being able to ditch that plan for a new one at a moments notice is key in SHTF type scenarios.

My initial investment was quite large and subsequent investments ove time were medium-large, but now that I own it all, the only cost is maintenance and the occassional addition of new stuff here and there. I make money form the energy I send back down the line, so I am recouping my expenses to a small extent/paying for new systems/equipment. I have done all of this, whilst still being employed full time for 95% of the time. We built 90% of everything by hand by ourselves; with help from friends/family.

Survival during civil unrest is really all about being able to weather the storm; society will flip over and turn on itself, but once the smoke clears, people will want to work together towards common goals again.

All of that and my above explanation doesn't even detail all of my plans/process/equipment/prep.

Sorry for such a long post, but I have given this a lot of thought and wanted to share my experience/preparedness. ( Also I have been sick for a while, since I got better I just wanted to add to M4C again; If my posts can even be considered additions that is...)


Keep on preparing!
Slainte!
You are my hero. I daydream about having what you describe.

Jerm
03-03-11, 18:05
Canned goods aren't long term, but they are handy for short term use as long as they're rotated.

This is news to me.

Most canned food has an expiration date of 2-3 years from the time I get it off the shelf. I've read that most of it will remain edible for up to 10+ years if stored properly.

I'd call that "long term" when it comes to food storage.


Here's just one example I just pulled form Google (not one of the multiple sources where I've originally heard/read it)...


Q. How long does canned food remain edible and retain its nutritional content after it is purchased?

A. Canned food has a shelf life of at least two years from the date of processing. Canned food retains its safety and nutritional value well beyond two years, but it may have some variation in quality, such as a change of color and texture. Canning is a high-heat process that renders the food commercially sterile. Food safety is not an issue in products kept on the shelf or in the pantry for long periods of time. In fact, canned food has an almost indefinite shelf life at moderate temperatures (75° Fahrenheit and below). Canned food as old as 100 years has been found in sunken ships and it is still microbiologically safe! We don't recommend keeping canned food for 100 years, but if the can is intact, it is edible. Rust or dents do not affect the contents of the can as long as the can does not leak. If the can is leaking, however, or if the ends are bulged, the food should not be used.



http://www.mealtime.org/content.aspx?id=132

Irish
03-03-11, 18:55
I think that you would be surprised how little land you need to grow food.

I think you'd be surprised at how much "property" I have. LOL! :D I'm out of town at the moment but I'm guessing 6 ft. separates the houses in my neighborhood and the same distance to my back wall. And then you have the bullshit HOA, etc.

But outside of that I agree with you.

jwfuhrman
03-03-11, 19:48
Luckily for me I live in a very rural community, where of the 35,000 TOTAL people in the ENTIRE COUNTY, 13,000 of them live in 1 or the other "cities". The rest are either Amish or Farmers. My family has been here since 1834, 5 years before it was actually a County.

Other than the people living in town, most everyone will do fine on their own here.

l3mon
03-03-11, 20:19
Valid point. It was my first knee-jerk concern after watching the video.

It seems like best option would be to comply and hand over any firearms they know about and have access to self-defense tools in other locations.

Edit: I wonder what they would do if you just didn't answer the door and played "not home"

How do confiscations get carried out? I wonder if most are just -
*Knock knock*
Q: We're here to confiscate any firearms, do you have any?
A: Yes
*Confiscated*

problem is, even states that dont require you to register your firearms they keep the sales records at the gun stores.

watch Red Dawn, they'll confiscate the records and and go to those houses.. and get those guns..

find a good FFL that'll burn their records if that happens ;) lol

The_War_Wagon
03-03-11, 20:31
I know many live in urban and heavily-built up areas due to economics (work), I assure you, I know, as I CHOSE to take a huge pay hit and lack of quality employers to live where I live, and I don't even live SERIOUSLY rural, like Jeremiah Johnson type rural, just farm & ranch rural.

But that is the decisions we all make... How serious does one think the veneer of civilized society is too thin for comfort? I made mine...


4 miles from downtown Pittsburgh, baby! :cool:

It's 'ok' to play Alamo, and prepare accordingly. Just remember how that movies concludes. Even John Wayne, dies in the end...

I won't be there to shake hands with you at Yorktown - think on us, when its all said & done.

13MPG
03-04-11, 02:20
Word! :dirol:

Rural has its own kind of looters and threats... Rural people does NOT mean prepared or sustainable...

So even rural has it's drawbacks and problems... But I suspect they will be slower in manifestation and intensity than urban, so hopefully containable or resolvable...

Rmpl

Big +1 on that. I am about 45min outside of Richmond VA in an area that is rural and there are several people that are less than desirable in the area. The upside is that there are about 12 families within a mile or two that are solid. Between the group there are farms, livestock, horses, gardens, and TONS of land.

ZRH
03-04-11, 05:11
problem is, even states that dont require you to register your firearms they keep the sales records at the gun stores.

watch Red Dawn, they'll confiscate the records and and go to those houses.. and get those guns..

find a good FFL that'll burn their records if that happens ;) lol
In a full scale meltdown like most people here are talking about, as opposed to geographically isolated incidents, there isnt going to be much government interest in anything except saving themselves. Politicians will be too busy packing their bags and fleeing.

If people are taking your guns there is still some kind of civil order. The Russians in Red Dawn did a remarkable job quelling civil unrest. Less resources you have to commit to keeping the locals in line = more resources to use defeating whoever it is you are fighting. Best way to invade the US would make sure the power never blipped.

EchoMirage
03-04-11, 08:43
I think that you would be surprised how little land you need to grow food.

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/yes-you-can-survive-the-coming-economic-nightmare-one-family-in-california-grows-6000-pounds-of-produce-on-just-110th-of-an-acre

Irish
03-04-11, 10:21
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/yes-you-can-survive-the-coming-economic-nightmare-one-family-in-california-grows-6000-pounds-of-produce-on-just-110th-of-an-acre

Their garden is very impressive! Thanks for posting that... It's inspirational.

THCDDM4
03-04-11, 10:34
You are my hero. I daydream about having what you describe.

Thanks, good luck to you in your endeavour! Start sooner than later and it will be realized.

I actually have been thinking of opening a homesteading school on a plot of land south of my property; it seems people are really giving it a lot of thought and taking the plunge these days, the "back to land movement" has gained huge following in recent year s with all the turmoil going on in the world.

I've been thinking that a commune style school to teach people how to do the things and acutally live it for a good while might be a good idea; and maybe profitable?

I know some places similar to this do exist already, but I am thinking of a more hands on approach. Not just an online course and visiting other homesteaders, but an actual plot of land where the sutdents leanr to build the structures, grow on the land, set up independent power grids, leanr the ins and outs of water filtration, food storage, satellite communications, brewing, distilling, cheese making, clothes making, candle making, livestock care/handling, canning/storaing food long term, proper maintenance and the whole lot.

Any opinions?

Watrdawg
03-04-11, 10:39
I think that you would be surprised how little land you need to grow food.

I have a 12ft X 12 ft garden in my back yard that I grow tomatoes, squash, zuchini, 1 row of corn, cukes, bell peppers and various herbs during the warm months. Spring and fall I do onions, potatoes, carrots and collards. It has something growing most year round except for the winter months.

I lime it every other year and fertilized it with Chicken Poo every year. During the winter months I have the last couple of mowings worth of grass clippings churned into the soil. This little plot gives me more veggies than I can usually handle.

Rmplstlskn
03-04-11, 12:08
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/yes-you-can-survive-the-coming-economic-nightmare-one-family-in-california-grows-6000-pounds-of-produce-on-just-110th-of-an-acre

Very motivational in how much can be done in so little space...

BUT.......

Wow, will they get stripped clean by the natives when it gets HARD, real hard... They don't seem like the type that will guard and fight off the natives...

They even gave their address on one of the videos, with Google Maps zooming right in...

Good luck to them... It's all fun now...

Rmpl

EchoMirage
03-04-11, 16:05
their idea isnt to fight off raiders. theyre trying to survive, right now, without spending alot of money. the whole point of the garden is to 'live off the grid' just in terms of food purchases, not for building their own fortress.

Paraclete comes
03-04-11, 19:07
Great thread. I'm also getting my preps together and all the input leads to great ideas. Very impressed with how well those folkd did on a small piece of land. Sometimes you just have to face reality and do the best with what you got. We really want to get out of ca however work will not permit at least for the better part of a year, so we prep here with the hopes of Montana or Idaho.

Rmplstlskn
03-04-11, 22:17
their idea isnt to fight off raiders. theyre trying to survive, right now, without spending alot of money. the whole point of the garden is to 'live off the grid' just in terms of food purchases, not for building their own fortress.

I'm just saying they are GROUP #3 in ThePatriotNurse's SHTF list...

Who Will Die First when SHTF... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J42CLa5iATM)

Rmpl

Abraxas
03-05-11, 11:12
Thanks, good luck to you in your endeavour! Start sooner than later and it will be realized.

I actually have been thinking of opening a homesteading school on a plot of land south of my property; it seems people are really giving it a lot of thought and taking the plunge these days, the "back to land movement" has gained huge following in recent year s with all the turmoil going on in the world.

I've been thinking that a commune style school to teach people how to do the things and acutally live it for a good while might be a good idea; and maybe profitable?

I know some places similar to this do exist already, but I am thinking of a more hands on approach. Not just an online course and visiting other homesteaders, but an actual plot of land where the sutdents leanr to build the structures, grow on the land, set up independent power grids, leanr the ins and outs of water filtration, food storage, satellite communications, brewing, distilling, cheese making, clothes making, candle making, livestock care/handling, canning/storaing food long term, proper maintenance and the whole lot.

Any opinions?

I think that it is a great idea, let me know I would come. I have wanted to live like that for a while, but I am having a hard time getting started. Just like anything else there is a lot of misinformation about how to go about it.

JStor
03-05-11, 13:28
Most canned food has an expiration date of 2-3 years from the time I get it off the shelf. I've read that most of it will remain edible for up to 10+ years if stored properly.

I'd call that "long term" when it comes to food storage.




I guess I just don't consider two to five years long term.

I know some canned foods last for quite awhile, and I have some home canned green beans in the basement with a 1999 date on them. But we opened a store bought can of tomato paste the other day that was about five years old, and it was a black mass. The can was sealed, too. Just because there's a date on the can doesn't mean it's going to be usable, and if it is edible, will it have enough nutritional value to keep a person healthy? Especially in a time of higher than normal stress?

There's no doubt canned foods have their place, as that is the most viable method to preserve garden produce. We also freeze vegetables, and in years past, we have dehydrated various items, such as onions etc. But in a time of civil disobedience, there may not be any electricity...a good reason to have a solar powered generator.

I still believe properly stored grains will last far beyond any canned foods with that all important thing...nutritional value. And the whole seed grains like rice, beans and wheat will make fresh tasting meals. After a month of eating canned foods, you would probably agree. :)

l3mon
03-05-11, 23:07
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/yes-you-can-survive-the-coming-economic-nightmare-one-family-in-california-grows-6000-pounds-of-produce-on-just-110th-of-an-acre

this is why I went and bought some 2"x6" and made a 4'x6' raised planter bed, gonna start with burpless cucumbers, (pre-started) and some potatoes.. just to try my hand, if i can get these down then I'll move on and make for planter beds..

Randall
03-07-11, 06:32
I actually have been thinking of opening a homesteading school on a plot of land south of my property; it seems people are really giving it a lot of thought and taking the plunge these days, the "back to land movement" has gained huge following in recent year s with all the turmoil going on in the world.

I've been thinking that a commune style school to teach people how to do the things and acutally live it for a good while might be a good idea; and maybe profitable?

I know some places similar to this do exist already, but I am thinking of a more hands on approach. Not just an online course and visiting other homesteaders, but an actual plot of land where the sutdents leanr to build the structures, grow on the land, set up independent power grids, leanr the ins and outs of water filtration, food storage, satellite communications, brewing, distilling, cheese making, clothes making, candle making, livestock care/handling, canning/storaing food long term, proper maintenance and the whole lot.

Any opinions?

i think its a great idea. a bunch of people just starting out on the ominous task of prepping get discouraged from just how much there is to do. i havent been prepping for very long but i know the first year i did more information gathering for everything i could think of such as food and water storage quantities and locations, gardens, necessary equipment and tools and their quantities than the more physical side of it such as actually stocking and building. Planning ahead on paper is invaluable. Your course would give valuable hands on experience to those just getting started and tried and true information instead of second hand internet here say from uncle johnneys uncle that must be experimented with. another benefit, for you this time, would be that you would be able to get feedback on your methods. The students that you would be teaching would also teach you. People new to a subject often come up with the best ideas because they don’t have the same mental rut that one has from doing something one way for so long. don’t know where I heard it but it’s good to remember to treat everybody like a teacher. if you do decide to start this course I suspect youll be meeting a lot of us fellow m4carbiners pretty darn quick. :) one question, if you don’t mind me asking. roughly how long did it take you to get that STOCKED!? lol I figure ill be about half way there by the time I die. It’s a process that never ends, that much I know.

THCDDM4
03-07-11, 10:04
The research side took a very long time, and continues to consume a big lot of time. Thankfully I started when I was around 5 years old with my grandpa being a survivalist and beating it into my head. He taught me how to grow (Not just grow, but to sustain life long crops), brew, distill, can/store food, hunt, various field craft, building & maintenance, purify water, etc. HE was my inspiration, he grew up as a bootlegger in the hills of Kentucky; many generations of shining survivalist types came before him, always lived off the land fighting the feds for their rights/lives.

I was lucky to have such a learned man in my life to direct me at such a young age.

After I finished college (2002) I bought my plot (After tons of research on the land itself; eg soils reports, water table level, etc)) and started really doing my research on newer systems and technologies that would expand my previous education of the older ways of doing things; the "analog" way if you will. Started building in 2003, but most of it took place in 2004-2005 with the help of riends and family.

I visited other homesteaders in Colorado and Wyoming and took notes, always lending a BIG helping hand to them for the wisdom and direction they provided me.

I've constantly been collecting building supplies from dumpsters and land-fill/dumps since I started my research in college (Just stored it all in a storage unit til Igot my land and dumped it out there in storage pods), etc to be re-used; this cut a lot of cost from my building budget to use elsewhere.

I started physically building the structures as soon as I drew my plans up and pulled my permits (Home, stables, maintenance shack, greenhouse, burried generator rooms/baffles, brewery/distillery/mini food processing areas, etc.) It took me a good 4-5 years (Working full time jobs as well, and/or touring as a guitarist with various bands at the time) to finish every structure and I am still adding/building them up from time to time for various reasons. Always more to add, always more to do; always new stuff that changes the game...

All throughout construction I was purchasing larger more expensive items to piece together; such as PV panels (I built them myslef to get a higher input/output ratio; much better technology exists than what is put in most commercially available PV panels), my battery back-up system, etc.

Once the structures were built it was time to get the garden going, and the greenhouse green! Then to start canning and storing the grains for longterm use. This was the easiest part as I have been growing food since I was 5 years old, and I have gotten pretty darn good at it; if I may toot my own horn!;). I was really lucky to have been taught this at a young age,a s growing and sustainging crops is hard work, and takes a lot of planning.

Really I have known that I wanted to return to the land, and be a homesteader since I was in high school; even before HS. I was taught to do anything and everything I can for myself from a young age, and my Grandpa shared a large dose of his hatred for the government and its constant tyranny with me; so it just made sense to me really.

I researched and saved money in college for my endeavour and have since put a good portion of my lifes earnings towards it. I have also been collecting gold & silver since I was about 12-13 (Since I was younger, but when I was around 12-13 I was lucky to have some good guidance from people who saw the writing on the wall, and knew our fiat currrency; and our system of taxation through inflation could only be curbed a few ways; one being physically holding commodities, and the other being life insurance plans that you piggy back tax free retirement plans on top of; that can be used as a sort of personal "bank" you loan money to yourself from, and pay interest to yourself through; I can get the names of good books on this system if any are interested) I used some of that gold recently to pay for my newest equipment and supplies.

I was lucky enough to meet a beautiful woman who was on the same level as I and we moved forward together. She instantly saw the value in doing things for ones self; not relying on outside forces to dictate ones quality or longevity of life; trying to curb the government confiscation of wealth and liberty as much as we could and jumped right on board! Man I love my wife more and more each day!


So after that long answer here is th short. I started a long time ago, even before I realized I had, with direction from my Grandpa and his crazy bootleggin' family. After seeing the path I believed th worl to be on; I got serious and formulated a plan and starting doing immense research. After my planning I bought the land and got to work, setting goals and timetables to adhere to and meeting them or replanning when I couldn't meet them. I am near where I want to be, very near, but still more needs to be done.

Right now I am working on building up a better armory; larger volumes of ammo and realoading supplies, back up parts and gunsmithing tools/books. I don't think I'll ever stock up the amount that I figure I need to make me comfortable, but I can get close.

If I had to do it now, just starting out from scratch, I would get my ass in gear, the earlier one starts a journey like this, the sooner they come to an end. Just remember to go slow and do it right the first time; seek out others with the knowledge to help you best utilize your time/efforts. Shop for good deals, and leave no stone unturned.

Sorry for the long answer, I guess thats the only kind I have. :p

I'll let you gents know if I open up the homesteading college; I am really thinking it may be a way I can "pay it forward" to those who seek this style of living. I am intrigued by the idea, but it needs a lot more thought on my part, and my familys. Good points made about the feedback and "outside the box" knowledge I would get form teaching/being taught in this way; thanks fir the input Randall!

Take care!



i think its a great idea. a bunch of people just starting out on the ominous task of prepping get discouraged from just how much there is to do. i havent been prepping for very long but i know the first year i did more information gathering for everything i could think of such as food and water storage quantities and locations, gardens, necessary equipment and tools and their quantities than the more physical side of it such as actually stocking and building. Planning ahead on paper is invaluable. Your course would give valuable hands on experience to those just getting started and tried and true information instead of second hand internet here say from uncle johnneys uncle that must be experimented with. another benefit, for you this time, would be that you would be able to get feedback on your methods. The students that you would be teaching would also teach you. People new to a subject often come up with the best ideas because they don’t have the same mental rut that one has from doing something one way for so long. don’t know where I heard it but it’s good to remember to treat everybody like a teacher. if you do decide to start this course I suspect youll be meeting a lot of us fellow m4carbiners pretty darn quick. :) one question, if you don’t mind me asking. roughly how long did it take you to get that STOCKED!? lol I figure ill be about half way there by the time I die. It’s a process that never ends, that much I know.

Balog
03-07-11, 22:11
Very interesting thoughts everyone, and some very valuable practical experience.

I will point out however, that being in a rural area does not isolate one from the cities. If you're within 3-500 miles of a city, you may as well be in it given the ranges of modern cars. Obviously it would not be as bad, but don't think that because you're an hours drive from a city that you're immune from a diaspora.

Randall
03-08-11, 08:25
So after that long answer here is th short. I started a long time ago, even before I realized I had, with direction from my Grandpa and his crazy bootleggin' family. After seeing the path I believed th worl to be on; I got serious and formulated a plan and starting doing immense research. After my planning I bought the land and got to work, setting goals and timetables to adhere to and meeting them or replanning when I couldn't meet them. I am near where I want to be, very near, but still more needs to be done.


Reading your post made me realize that prepping does start a lot sooner than one consciously realizes. I considered myself only a few years in, but since you mentioned that you really started learning around age 5 the necessary skills, I too started much earlier in life than I realized. Where you had a bootleggin grandpa, I had a dad that taught me some basic survival skills, put me through boy scouts, taught me to hunt, and most importantly taught me the ideals one needed to be self sufficient. he never gave me a penny, and when I was young I hated him for it, but hindsight says that was one of my most valuable lessons. That lesson led me to the same place as you in college. I hear ya on the saving money and preparing while all the friends are at bars and casinos. I was the same way. Sometimes it got to the point that my friends would actually pay me to go out and party with them :P we’d go to the casino and id win money off their money and quit and repay them. and almost every time they would keep going until they lost what they brought. never understood why most people cant quit when theyre ahead. Then for the kicker, they couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t go with them all the time but never put two and two together when they couldn’t figure out why they were always broke and I was not. and here I thought I was the only one who gave up the “college lifestyle” so drastically. nice to know I wasn’t alone in that category.

you mention going through construction sites dumpsters and the like for materials. ever ran into any trouble stemming from that? the most dumpster diving ive ever done is one day old expired foods from behind bakeries and stuff like that, never for building or utility supplies. (one time when power was down for a day a pizza place had to throw out a walk in freezer full of frozen pizzas. I had over two years supply of pizza :D boy that was a good day) Had the police stop me once and they just gave me a warning and a lecture on why the food was in the dumpster in the first place (ya for people like me to eat for free!), but that kind of worried me as far as construction sites and the like as far as them viewing me as a thief and not a recycler and end up in legal trouble.

like you I also realized I wanted to return to the land from a young age, others just wrote it off as a childhood fantasy. and that fantasy turned into life (thankfully!) always said I was born a couple hundred years too late.

and not necessary to apologize for the long answer, their the best kind; a most welcome read.


I will point out however, that being in a rural area does not isolate one from the cities. If you're within 3-500 miles of a city, you may as well be in it given the ranges of modern cars. Obviously it would not be as bad, but don't think that because you're an hours drive from a city that you're immune from a diaspora.

while what you say is true that being in a rural area does not totally isolate your from cities it does do it better than staying in the thick of them. If youre at the point where youre worried about all the people abandoning the cities and heading for the hills then cars are going to be useless. Itll be bumper to bumper traffic when that situation arises and the longer the traffic sits the more people get out and continue on foot or other means of transportation, rendering highways into parking lots. An off road motorcycle would be just about the best chance one would have of getting through it all. All in all I agree with your post, just because youre in a rural area doesn’t mean your safe, a good reminder for us all. O, and welcome to M4carbine Balog!

THCDDM4
03-08-11, 08:55
I've worked construction (Every trade you can think of) for over 10 years in Colorado and I know pretty much all the commercial guys out there. I always ask first; some say **** off; no worries, there are over 1000 construction projects/dumpsters for me to rummage through, and thats only staying close to where I live (Close to my city home at least). I usually make friends with a guy or two in various trades who can grab the goodies from the larger projects for me (The larger the project, the more the waste; and usually higher quality stuff to re-use as well) and I pay them in beer for it. They love the beer and I love the free supplies.

I just give them lists of what I am looking for and they find it and bring it on over. Worked very well for me.

Sad the days of being able to walk uninhibited through most junk yards is over. I made friends with a guy up north at a private junkyard and he is pretty cool (After enough chat and some booze) about letting me just walk around and offer him whatever; again I trade him some alcohol for his leway and he seems to not mind giving me good deals as long as I bring some booze for him to drink whilst I am there rummaging.

Never had run ins with the police while rummaging, so not sure what would happen, I would imagine they would just see you as a guy in a trash dump trying to repurpose things; but who knows?

Unless in a locked receptacle, here in Colorado trash is not property once it is on the side of the street, or in an unlocked dumspter, so not sure if they even have a legal leg to stand on if they wanted me to stop.

Trespassing on private construction property to rumage is not advised though; I've never done it; never needed to.

Just get permission or find another dumpster.

Also commercial "warehouse" business parks tend to have a lot of construction waste as well from contractors/sub-contractors renting out space in the business parks. Just ask the property manager if you can rummage and they should say yes just about every time.

Funny you should mention; my friends were the exact same way; constantly wasting every dime at the bar; not knowing when to stop whilst ahead; then wondering why I always had money and wasn't strapped for cash. Funny phenomena.


you mention going through construction sites dumpsters and the like for materials. ever ran into any trouble stemming from that? the most dumpster diving ive ever done is one day old expired foods from behind bakeries and stuff like that, never for building or utility supplies. (one time when power was down for a day a pizza place had to throw out a walk in freezer full of frozen pizzas. I had over two years supply of pizza :D boy that was a good day) Had the police stop me once and they just gave me a warning and a lecture on why the food was in the dumpster in the first place (ya for people like me to eat for free!), but that kind of worried me as far as construction sites and the like as far as them viewing me as a thief and not a recycler and end up in legal trouble.

Balog
03-08-11, 10:50
Thanks for the welcome Randall. I've long been interested in prepping, but forums about it have generally been a bad experience for me. Too many people who are, how shall I put it, bat-shit crazy and more interested in fantasizing about the deaths of all the "sheeple" they despise so much and becoming neo-feudal warlords than making practical steps towards self reliance. Haven't seen too much of that here so far, which is encouraging. :)

iraqbound
03-31-11, 15:29
I have been getting hescos and Razor Wire rolls when I can . I am moving to a very rural area on at least 30 acreas with a small river and our Power is 100% solar and the land is great for farming. At the first sign of anything going wrong I am taking the back hoe and filling up my hesco Barriers and run razor wire across the top of them all the way around our Property. I am alwasy preparing even while I am still in the city I am always doing little things. Every plastic bottle I get from a soda or water or jug of anything I fill with water and store it in my garage. I have a Hesco 1/4 full of bottles of water and I buy 25lb bags of rice for $9.50 each bag every other week . When a Bag gets 2 yrs old I donate it to a local shellter . BUt you can go on and on and on with suirvival readiness supplies. Batteries, food , water, gas, ammo, guns, Gun repair & Gun cleaning supplies, Clothes and portable shelters. My wife , daughter and myself all have 4 sets of Cammo in desrt and woodland and 2 sets each of Gortex Parkas and Pants Universal ACU , Matches, Short wave radio and the list goes and goes and you will always find somehting else you will need. my wife says its a crazed obsession but when she is sitting pretty with a full stomach when the USA's economy has crashed and walmart's shelves are bare in 3 days after a real shut down or there is a dissaster of huge magnitude she will thank me. And after you spend thousands on everything you will then realize you need everything you have now X's 2 so that you can have a second back up stash incase you can not get to your home to get the original stash. I will stop here cause it just keeps going and going. No ammount of survival supplies is enough. I have real issues!

Packman73
03-31-11, 17:56
I'm survivalist-minded but budget-limited. Subbed for the discussion.

Just a Jarhead
04-02-11, 10:57
To add to the discussion in regards to whether or not the hordes will venture into the rural area's...it is helpful to remember that it is estimated that any given time 70% of all cars have less than a half tank of gas in them. And of those who are able to get gas once a "situation" occurs many of them will burn much of that gas up sitting in bumper to bumper traffic in the mass exodus.

So they will come but many won't be able to.

Irish
06-26-11, 12:49
The future of America... Actually these things are happening today.

A mob of 40 people in Philly robbing a Sears http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2011/06/26/news/doc4e0696aaf127f552097776.txt?nstrack=sid:3501255|met:300|cat:0|order:1

A mob of 50 people in Chicago robbing a Walgreens. http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/06/23/teen-mob-hits-walgreens-off-the-mag-mile-steals/

A good article on the craziness in Chicago lately. Mobs attacking people downtown, beaches, etc. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/janet-tavakoli/third-world-america-2011_b_873200.html#ixzz1OivWFpEw

Peoria, Il a mob of 80 blacks chanting "kill all the white people", attacking citizens and terrorizing neighborhoods. http://peoriachronicle.com/2011/06/25/peorians-living-in-fear/

Atlanta, GA mob of teens attack airline stewardesses on train. http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/horde-of-teens-attack-917772.html?cxtype=rss_news

More riots, mobs, etc. in these articles.

Boston... http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-31/news/29604685_1_three-state-troopers-youths-police-officers

Nashville... http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14750758/police-shut-down-wave-country-due-to-unruly-crowd

Long Island... http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/long-island-beach-riot-20110531-apx

Miami... http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/31/2243787/a-dozen-officers-involved-in-fatal.html

Rochester... http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Mayor-Police-Chief-Promise-Order-at-Beach/IH9ZETkPPE6EBld39o0rkw.cspx

Charlotte... http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Victims-family-city-leaders-have-questions-after-Uptown-shooting-122846569.html

Las Vegas... video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvfkk5D8-8o&feature=player_embedded

DC... video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7V66pwWYnw&feature=player_embedded

Teenage gang charged with lynching. If the shoe were on the other foot this would be a "hate crime" but no mention of it here with a white victim. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008252/Teenage-gang-charged-lynching-law-savage-attack-18-year-old-student.html

handlebar
06-26-11, 14:15
I was 15 in July of `67 in Newark , N.J. . You better believe i`m ready, i never let my guard down since.

I was 18 and in Newark the day the riots broke out. I was registering for the draft. Today I live in S. FL, and I am prepared to do what is necessary.

a1fabweld
06-26-11, 17:26
I believe it's extremely possible for some sort of chaos to erupt in the near future. Too many people living off the gov't. Take away their luxuries & there it starts.

Obama is the 1st black president. He's an icon to the black community. Probably right up there with MLK to some. Can you imagine if something happened to him like JFK? Chaos would run rampant through the entire country.

My dad told me about the violence & destruction he saw when MLK was assassinated. I saw what happened during the Rodney King incident. Black folks in L.A. flipped out over him & he was a POS.

Recently there was the BART shooting where apperently a Bart officer mistakedly shot a black man in the back. During the trial for the officer involved, many Bay Area & So Cal authorities prepared for large scale riots. The National Guard was in place at numerous locations & LE was prepared for the worst. The gov't knows how fragile society is wather they want to admit it or not.

Then you have the continued price increases of food & fuel. This affects everything we consume. I'm sure there are lots of people fed up with the economy & gov't and their sanity is hanging from a thread. Desperation makes good people do bad things.

The next few years should be interesting to see what happens with the next presidential elections & economy overall. This may determine the next large scale civil disobedience event.

I hope there's a happy ending but I don't see how it can happen anytime soon. Lot's of people I've spoken to from all walks of life think we haven't seen the worst of it yet.

MechEng
06-26-11, 21:02
It has been said the civilization is a very thin veneer that covers a rather nasty society and I agree.

So true and we see proof of this all the time. If seemingly normal people will trample each other just to get a Tickle Me Elmo doll, under the mere pressure of not wanting to disappoint their child, what do you think they will do after the markets run out of food. The world will become primeval.

Irish
06-27-11, 11:16
More reports from today...

Ohio - Mobs of teens shut down fair. http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/06/hordes_of_unruly_teens_shut_do.html

Philly - Woman's leg broke, others hurt in mob attack. Approximately 50 - 100 assholes. http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110627_Woman_s_leg_broken__others_hurt_in_Spring_Garden_mob_attack.html

DC - Caribbean Fest turns into massive brawl at Howard U. (Video) http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video640.php?v=wshhafNEnJmHv3Sr08EL&set_size=1

CRAMBONE
06-27-11, 16:49
-I grew up in the rural South. We had a garden every year until I went to college (funny how that happened). My dad started gardening again a few years ago before I left on my first deployment (for his mental health is what mom said). The food is awesome, not some much cheaper but could be, and my mom is a mean cook. It has been a great re-learning experience for me and pops. Living rural and growing your own food is good; BUT most people put the majority of it up in the freezer. And how long do you think that food will last in a freezer with no power.

-You might have a garden and grow you own food but you also have to think about how your are going to store your food and get it to "keep" until the next year. Canning vegitables and fruit is a good way for those. We have also talked about digging a root cellar for food and seeds (because you are gonna have to eat next year) storage. Also with seeds, alot of the modern genetically modified seeds you buy at the local Co-op are one-crop seeds, meaning the plants grown with them will not grow more plants.

-And say you have enough room to raise cattle/pigs/sheep/goats/chickens or hunt you meat. You have to think how you will store and keep your meat. As I said earlier freezers ain't going to be working for too long. Smoke house?

-And then I have to think about how Im going to get my wife and myself, and maybe a kid before too long, back home.

ForTehNguyen
06-27-11, 22:00
the rioting will start when the govt checks dont buy anything. They wont bounce, they just wont buy squat.

a1fabweld
06-27-11, 23:05
the rioting will start when the govt checks dont buy anything. They wont bounce, they just wont buy squat.

I totally agree. My question is, at what point does the gov't cut off the freeloaders? They know the negative side effects of limiting the entitlement groups they bred. If the price of commodities keeps climbing, the gov't will have to increase the handouts as to avoid any backlash. My assumption.

dahoeb
06-28-11, 10:49
interesting discussion. I agree with some of the previous points here....

From what the world saw in Katrina and what we see now-a-days with "flash mobs", "civilization" really does appear to be almost a forced state of mind for some. If nobody told me where these flash mobs were occuring here, I could have easily assumed with a passing thought that it was occuring in Egypt, Somalia or the like.

These mobs might just be a passing fad, but in my opinion it's just another symptom of a country in decay. And I predict things like that will get worse before it gets better.

All you can really do is just be as self-sustained as possible and be ready to protect your family and property if you need to. Hopefully, one of these mobs will run into someone with a CCW permit whos ready to defend themselves, maybe that'll be a wakeup call for deadweights.

Eventually though, most of the welfare programs are going to go belly up (social sec., medicare, etc..). When this happens, then I'm guessing we'll be seeing some very real civil unrest. I wouldn't be surprised if politicians started to be attacked. Just look at what was happening in Wisconsin all because they wanted to reform some govt union rules.

sjc3081
06-28-11, 11:27
It is very cheap to stock up on a years worth of food.Check out Sams Club, 1gal cans of baked beans $6.00,50lb bags of rice $20.00,Gal cans of fruit cocktail $5.00.

Just a Jarhead
06-28-11, 11:31
Try to mix up those large gallon size cans of food with smaller single or double serving sized cans. If electricity goes belly up you'll have no way to preserve opened cans unless you have lots of people to feed all at once.

shaneinhisroom
06-28-11, 14:38
Finding this thread had to be one of the best things I've done all year. It really has opened my eyes to what's giong on around us. In fact this whole subforum is full of good tips and advice.

docsherm
06-29-11, 00:02
I live in a very small town, less than 1000 people. I do not have to worry about the masses rioting around me. That being said, I work in a city that I do have to worry about it, but not as much as most. My biggest concern is getting back home, my wife and I. We have supplies in the vehicles and alt routes set up for his. Once home the masses will have to move some distance to get to my house. The best about my neighborhood is that there are only two ways to get there and both have a choke point with some stand off from my house.

NC_DAVE
06-29-11, 01:34
You may live in a small town, but you still live near Fayettnam that would casue me to worry.

docsherm
06-29-11, 10:16
That is true. But I do live about 45 min outside of the 'nam. There are many natural barriers in the way. There are many different directions that people would take before coming to my area. You have to be going to my area to get there. Not passing by it going somewhere else.

And I am not too worried, most of the riffraff will go to the strip clubs first. :lol:

Irish
06-29-11, 11:31
Philly - They were part of about 100 or more young people who had left Saturday night's event, police said, committing a series of violent assaults and robberies... http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110629_Teens_in_a_mob_assault_and_rob_Center_City_patrons.html?124644119=Y&submit=Vote&mr=1&oid=3&pid=124644119&cid=8500281

NC_DAVE
06-29-11, 14:19
That is true. But I do live about 45 min outside of the 'nam. There are many natural barriers in the way. There are many different directions that people would take before coming to my area. You have to be going to my area to get there. Not passing by it going somewhere else.

And I am not too worried, most of the riffraff will go to the strip clubs first. :lol:

Hopefully the riffraff will keep killing each other and thin their numbers by the time they get out of the city.:smile:

Irish
06-29-11, 17:51
OK - Mob mentality strikes again. Four people charged with kidnapping a man (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43573001/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/), tattooing "RAPEST" on his forehead and shocking his genitals with a stun gun before beating him unconscious and giving him a fractured skull with a baseball bat pleaded guilty to kidnapping and maiming charges.

Heidevolk
06-29-11, 19:14
Stupid people don't tend to realize they're stupid, neither do stupid mobs. It's sort of a comedy, their inability to correctly spell the charge would be an indication to any outside observer that those involved aren't of the mental caliber to making rational judgments.

NC_DAVE
06-29-11, 21:03
Stupid people don't tend to realize they're stupid, neither do stupid mobs. It's sort of a comedy, their inability to correctly spell the charge would be an indication to any outside observer that those involved aren't of the mental caliber to making rational judgments.

I guy i work with always says if we understand them we would be just as dumb as they are. I prefer the term savages.

Ironman8
06-29-11, 21:10
Hopefully this is a joke...but this video pretty much sums up the parasites that this country is dealing with...

http://youtu.be/wbXhT3uBWRg

NC_DAVE
06-29-11, 21:59
Hopefully this is a joke...but this video pretty much sums up the parasites that this country is dealing with...

http://youtu.be/wbXhT3uBWRg

hey......leave my girl out of this

Irish
06-30-11, 06:04
Hopefully this is a joke...but this video pretty much sums up the parasites that this country is dealing with...

http://youtu.be/wbXhT3uBWRg

It's a parody, and a ghetto character she invented, making fun of the ignorant people who are like that in Youtube land, there are definitely plenty of people who do believe that shit. Glozell's actually an actress & comedian, here's her page: http://www.youtube.com/user/glozell1#g/u and http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GloZell

Honestly though, I wanted to punch her in the face! :D

The_War_Wagon
06-30-11, 06:13
Yes. And getting MORE prepared every day.

Redmanfms
06-30-11, 07:22
The future of America... Actually these things are happening today.

A mob of 40 people in Philly robbing a Sears http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2011/06/26/news/doc4e0696aaf127f552097776.txt?nstrack=sid:3501255|met:300|cat:0|order:1

A mob of 50 people in Chicago robbing a Walgreens. http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/06/23/teen-mob-hits-walgreens-off-the-mag-mile-steals/

A good article on the craziness in Chicago lately. Mobs attacking people downtown, beaches, etc. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/janet-tavakoli/third-world-america-2011_b_873200.html#ixzz1OivWFpEw

Peoria, Il a mob of 80 blacks chanting "kill all the white people", attacking citizens and terrorizing neighborhoods. http://peoriachronicle.com/2011/06/25/peorians-living-in-fear/

Atlanta, GA mob of teens attack airline stewardesses on train. http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/horde-of-teens-attack-917772.html?cxtype=rss_news

More riots, mobs, etc. in these articles.

Boston... http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-31/news/29604685_1_three-state-troopers-youths-police-officers

Nashville... http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14750758/police-shut-down-wave-country-due-to-unruly-crowd

Long Island... http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/long-island-beach-riot-20110531-apx

Miami... http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/31/2243787/a-dozen-officers-involved-in-fatal.html

Rochester... http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Mayor-Police-Chief-Promise-Order-at-Beach/IH9ZETkPPE6EBld39o0rkw.cspx

Charlotte... http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Victims-family-city-leaders-have-questions-after-Uptown-shooting-122846569.html

Las Vegas... video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvfkk5D8-8o&feature=player_embedded

DC... video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7V66pwWYnw&feature=player_embedded

Teenage gang charged with lynching. If the shoe were on the other foot this would be a "hate crime" but no mention of it here with a white victim. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008252/Teenage-gang-charged-lynching-law-savage-attack-18-year-old-student.html

To be fair, none of what you posted is actually "civil disobedience" it's more like mini-rioting, the 'minority' version of the flash mob. From what I've read about these attacks they use social networking sites and mass texts to form the mob and tell it when to strike. "Civil Disobedience" is protest and is "civil" as in not violent. This flash mob behavior if more widespread would be called insurrection.

Whether this has to do with the economic/political environment or the technological advancement of the already criminally inclined is the question we should be asking ourselves. I personally suspect it's the latter.




When I start seeing reports of white people doing this in small/medium cities I'll be a whole lot more concerned.

Redmanfms
06-30-11, 07:36
OK - Mob mentality strikes again. Four people charged with kidnapping a man (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43573001/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/), tattooing "RAPEST" on his forehead and shocking his genitals with a stun gun before beating him unconscious and giving him a fractured skull with a baseball bat pleaded guilty to kidnapping and maiming charges.

Eh. A mob four people maketh not, still; it's plenty ugly and disturbing.

Ironman8
06-30-11, 07:47
It's a parody, and a ghetto character she invented, making fun of the ignorant people who are like that in Youtube land, there are definitely plenty of people who do believe that shit. Glozell's actually an actress & comedian, here's her page: http://www.youtube.com/user/glozell1#g/u and http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GloZell

Honestly though, I wanted to punch her in the face! :D

Haha well that makes me feel a little better...although you're probably right there are plenty of people who probably think that even if they don't say it...regardless of skin color.

QuietShootr
06-30-11, 07:49
1. Can the hordes reach your property without dying first? For example, if you live in Tuscon, I don't think you need to worry about vermin from LA because they will die in the Mojave, even if they make it out of the LA city limits.

2. Can you make your area a harder target than other areas? Such as with stuff that blocks the road but is very hard to move, removal of a bridge, placement of a few competent riflemen, etc.

One word... Beltfeeds. :D

Redmanfms
06-30-11, 08:14
Haha well that makes me feel a little better...although you're probably right there are plenty of people who probably think that even if they don't say it...regardless of skin color.

Pretty much. Took an English lit. course as an elective back in '09 and the instructor and quite a few of the kids believed the Obamacare hype to the letter. It was disturbing. I've met people in grad school who earnestly believe that healthcare is going to be cheaper because of Obamacare, despite the fact that insurance premiums are going up (granted, they're at a different college, you don't find too many stupid/liberal types in the engineering community). Ugh. :suicide2:

Then of course, there was the famous video shot at an Obama rally during the campaign of some woman who believed she wasn't going to have to worry about her mortgage or gas or healthcare anymore if Obama got elected.

docsherm
06-30-11, 09:52
One word... Beltfeeds. :D

Amen brother..:jester:

QuietShootr
06-30-11, 10:44
Amen brother..:jester:

I'm just sayin'.... if a hypothetical person were to cover the main routes of approach to a hypothetical area with....say, a concealed MG34 and -42, a 240B, and a Vz37, coupled with the only vehicular approach being covered by an M2, backed up with a long rifleman to cover the MGs movements when necessary, and a few fast-movers all in radio contact, it would be a nasty, nasty chore for a group to breach the FPL without air support.

The above post is purely hypothetical and for entertainment purposes only.

Irish
06-30-11, 12:19
Eh. A mob four people maketh not, still; it's plenty ugly and disturbing.

No shit? I said "mob mentality" which is exactly what occured.

Try to contribute something positive to the thread rather than just splitting hairs about definitions and word usage, it's boring.

Redmanfms
07-01-11, 00:39
No shit? I said "mob mentality" which is exactly what occured.

Try to contribute something positive to the thread rather than just splitting hairs about definitions and word usage, it's boring.

I'll make sure to run my posts by you for approval first Irish.



:rolleyes:



Not everything is personal and sometimes people will correct you when you are wrong without any ulterior motives.

viperashes
07-05-11, 06:14
It is amazing to me how alarmingly common situations like the ones posted are becoming. A small tussle between 2 people can turn into a mob brawl, or turn into gladiatorial style combat with a crowd gathering and surrounding them. It's not as ridiculous as it should be to think that society can break down so easily into anarchism over such simple things.

Paraclete comes
07-05-11, 10:21
very true.


It is amazing to me how alarmingly common situations like the ones posted are becoming. A small tussle between 2 people can turn into a mob brawl, or turn into gladiatorial style combat with a crowd gathering and surrounding them. It's not as ridiculous as it should be to think that society can break down so easily into anarchism over such simple things.

Irish
07-05-11, 17:58
The hits just keep on coming...

IL - Video of incident over the weekend. Mob beats and stabs individual. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q6j3VF8eGs&feature=player_embedded#at=14

IL - Chicago. 5 dead, 23 hurt due to shootings and stabbings. http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/5-Dead-and-23-Hurt-in-Violent-Holiday-Weekend-in-Chicago-125003189.html

NJ - Mob fight, 2 people shot. http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/07/05/2-wounded-in-shooting-outside-atlantic-city-casino/

MA - Boston. 13 shot & stabbed in 5 hours. http://www.boston.com/Boston/metrodesk/2011/07/just-five-hours-people-are-shot-and-stabbed-around-boston-four-killed/9SMlfqVN009BbSOjHXJy9M/index.html

AL - 300 person mob fight. http://www.local15tv.com/news/local/story/UPDATE-Bullet-Grazes-Teens-Face-During-Downtown/8eSjlnrLTEysUf0JihjEnA.cspx

WI - Mob robs store then assaults citizens. http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/124983979.html Video here: http://www.jsonline.com/general/37714089.html?bcpid=23739055001&bctid=1038106097001

QuietShootr
07-05-11, 18:06
The hits just keep on coming...

IL - Video of incident over the weekend. Mob beats and stabs individual. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q6j3VF8eGs&feature=player_embedded#at=14

IL - Chicago. 5 dead, 23 hurt due to shootings and stabbings. http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/5-Dead-and-23-Hurt-in-Violent-Holiday-Weekend-in-Chicago-125003189.html

NJ - Mob fight, 2 people shot. http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/07/05/2-wounded-in-shooting-outside-atlantic-city-casino/

MA - Boston. 13 shot & stabbed in 5 hours. http://www.boston.com/Boston/metrodesk/2011/07/just-five-hours-people-are-shot-and-stabbed-around-boston-four-killed/9SMlfqVN009BbSOjHXJy9M/index.html

AL - 300 person mob fight. http://www.local15tv.com/news/local/story/UPDATE-Bullet-Grazes-Teens-Face-During-Downtown/8eSjlnrLTEysUf0JihjEnA.cspx

WI - Mob robs store then assaults citizens. http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/124983979.html Video here: http://www.jsonline.com/general/37714089.html?bcpid=23739055001&bctid=1038106097001

Yo, homie, is that my briefcase?

http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy229/QS762556/phone105.jpg

viperashes
07-06-11, 03:20
The primary reason I'm really hoping the Texas Firearms Freedom Act passes. It's been being thrown around for a long while now, and I'm not sure how far it will get, but if it does pass, I will once again thank GOD I am a Texan. Restricting firearm ownership is like putting a child in a shark tank. The sharks still have their teeth, the bad guys still have guns. The law abiding citizen that wants to register his gun that he is proficient with get's grilled by the Feebs, while the crooks and criminals are out terrorizing people with illegal guns. I personally feel that I should be able to carry my weapon with me wherever I damn well please. Here's an idea, using Marine Corps logic, which would actually kind of make sense in the civilian world; Let people take their guns wherever they want. Let's say a bank. Put a clearing area at the front. A condition 4 weapon is pretty hard to rob a bank with. Keep the guards armed and condition 1, citizens can still carry, unload on the way in, load on the way out, no real hassle there. Everybody is safe, everybody wins.

docsherm
07-06-11, 04:31
Yo, homie, is that my briefcase?

That will work very nicely. :sarcastic:

Now the most important question. Is that Honey Moon Beer? If so where did you get it? I thought that they stopped making it. :blink:

kal0220
07-06-11, 05:40
Now the most important question. Is that Honey Moon Beer? If so where did you get it? I thought that they stopped making it. :blink:

It's just a seasonal beer. I think I read they will be brewing it only the rest of this month, but I don't remember where I saw that and can't find the link now. I got mine at Wal-mart and the Class 6.

docsherm
07-06-11, 06:08
It's just a seasonal beer. I think I read they will be brewing it only the rest of this month, but I don't remember where I saw that and can't find the link now. I got mine at Wal-mart and the Class 6.

I know it was seasonal. I could not find it after January. I was hoping that it started up again. That would be great.



Back on topic:
I feel safer driving around the Stan then a lot of places in the States. Here I know it is coming and everything is overt. Back in the States it has to be low-vis or the LEO will freak out and the “food-stamp Hordes” will complain that you are targeting them (when they are the ones that are causing most of the problems….got to love the irony :confused:). That makes it more dangerous because you have to get stuff out. The real problem is that if the food-stamp Hordes attack your vehicle (I have a F250 with a LARGE brush guard) and you simply run down a great deal of them you are then the bad guy. It is never their fault. They complain if they get shot looting your house. Douche-nozzles:angry:

viperashes
07-06-11, 06:27
What is funny is so do I. Everything is out in the open. Me. The other guy. Haji-bob knows if he does anything stupid I'm going to face shoot his ass. I know that if I'm not paying attention for a split second, he'll have his buddy hiding in the berms over there blow me and my buddies into burnt toast. Back home, I don't know who could be carrying what. Being essentially blind to a possible threat. At least here there generally is some kind of warning, or at least that "gut check" feeling of knowing something is wrong. I've been 100% correct every time I've gotten that feeling too. Try clearing a compound, sleeping in it, only to wake up and find out you slept next to 120lbs of bad ****ing day in powdered form. I feel you bro.


I feel safer driving around the Stan then a lot of places in the States. Here I know it is coming and everything is overt. Back in the States it has to be low-vis or the LEO will freak out and the “food-stamp Hordes” will complain that you are targeting them (when they are the ones that are causing most of the problems….got to love the irony :confused:). That makes it more dangerous because you have to get stuff out. The real problem is that if the food-stamp Hordes attack your vehicle (I have a F250 with a LARGE brush guard) and you simply run down a great deal of them you are then the bad guy. It is never their fault. They complain if they get shot looting your house. Douche-nozzles:angry:

QuietShootr
07-06-11, 06:45
That will work very nicely. :sarcastic:

Now the most important question. Is that Honey Moon Beer? If so where did you get it? I thought that they stopped making it. :blink:

Indeed it is. And I got it in a 'boutiquey' fag-type city liquor store. Good eye.

docsherm
07-06-11, 06:52
Indeed it is. And I got it in a 'boutiquey' fag-type city liquor store. Good eye.

Two things I know: GUNS and BEER :jester:

QuietShootr
07-06-11, 07:12
Two things I know: GUNS and BEER :jester:

Fun gun stuff: one thing you can't see with that gun is the 7.62mm MG3 conversion kit so it will run 7.62 in the (unlikely) event that the 8mm supply is exhausted.

Hardly anything says "Go away" like 1200 RPM of full rifle-caliber MG fire.

The_War_Wagon
07-06-11, 07:52
How many of you already have a garden going? I know that many keep some food on hand, but how many could replace it without going out for it? I know people that are buying the non-hybrid heirloom seeds, but not planting them. What good does that do, it takes time to grow a garden. Do you have enough supplies to wait for your garden to grow? Just a thought

Garden AND a greenhouse - 2 bits! :D

LRS143
07-06-11, 08:56
What are the thoughts about clothing in a situation or post situation like these being described here? I have piles of BDU's, DCU's, ACU's, Multicam's, gear, etc... Would wearing these draw attention or should you lay low (but prepared) in your jeans and t-shirt saving your military stuff for "when needed". The functionality of uniforms and gear would push me towards wearing them more often then not and saving my jeans adn t-shirts for the calm after the storm.

docsherm
07-06-11, 09:04
What are the thoughts about clothing in a situation or post situation like these being described here? I have piles of BDU's, DCU's, ACU's, Multicam's, gear, etc... Would wearing these draw attention or should you lay low (but prepared) in your jeans and t-shirt saving your military stuff for "when needed". The functionality of uniforms and gear would push me towards wearing them more often then not and saving my jeans adn t-shirts for the calm after the storm.

I went over that in this thread:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78513

I go for low-vis combined with utility. Everyone has a pair of BDU pants, just don't be the dork running around in Multi-Cams. :lol:

QuietShootr
07-06-11, 09:47
I went over that in this thread:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=78513

I go for low-vis combined with utility. Everyone has a pair of BDU pants, just don't be the dork running around in Multi-Cams. :lol:

I like plain khaki ripstops for the same reason. They blend really well, and with a plain t-shirt you can add or subtract the BDU top and hat or boonie as required - switch back and forth from grey to green easily.

a1fabweld
07-06-11, 18:12
If you traveling or going out in public, I think you'd be better off in regular daily attire (jeans/cargo's, t-shirt/flannel) as to not draw attention. Looking like a soldier may make you a target.

Irish
07-06-11, 18:15
Thieves have now transitioned from stealing copper to stealing entire A/C units from houses. http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/07/05/thieves-in-chatham-targeting-air-conditioners/

Ga Shooter
07-06-11, 20:05
Thanks, good luck to you in your endeavour! Start sooner than later and it will be realized.

I actually have been thinking of opening a homesteading school on a plot of land south of my property; it seems people are really giving it a lot of thought and taking the plunge these days, the "back to land movement" has gained huge following in recent year s with all the turmoil going on in the world.

I've been thinking that a commune style school to teach people how to do the things and acutally live it for a good while might be a good idea; and maybe profitable?

I know some places similar to this do exist already, but I am thinking of a more hands on approach. Not just an online course and visiting other homesteaders, but an actual plot of land where the sutdents leanr to build the structures, grow on the land, set up independent power grids, leanr the ins and outs of water filtration, food storage, satellite communications, brewing, distilling, cheese making, clothes making, candle making, livestock care/handling, canning/storaing food long term, proper maintenance and the whole lot.

Any opinions?

I would be very interested in having this information. ther is so much misinformation out there it would be great to learn from someone who has already "been ther and done that". We have been looking into underground storage and living at or retreat location but cannot even figure out where to start. Great info and big wake up call in this thread!! Thanks

duece71
07-06-11, 20:27
Friends would be very nice to have in what the OPs thread is talking about. However, I feel that starving, desparate people somehow are NOT going to be very friendly. Your friends won't be your friends anymore. Family...always. Are you going to feed your "friends" just to leave you and yours starving???? I doubt any one of us would do that. Just saying is all. MHO.

GermanSynergy
07-06-11, 23:12
Once the welfare gravy train screeches to a halt, things will get ugly in a hurry.

Moose-Knuckle
07-07-11, 04:38
What are the thoughts about clothing in a situation or post situation like these being described here? I have piles of BDU's, DCU's, ACU's, Multicam's, gear, etc... Would wearing these draw attention or should you lay low (but prepared) in your jeans and t-shirt saving your military stuff for "when needed". The functionality of uniforms and gear would push me towards wearing them more often then not and saving my jeans adn t-shirts for the calm after the storm.

The purpose of any camouflage is to blend in with one's environment. During times of civil unrest if one is running around wearing BDUs in a camouflage pattern they will stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. My idea of camouflage during civil unrest is a pair of jeans, a t-shirt, and a baseball cap as I want to blend in and not draw attention to myself.

viperashes
07-07-11, 05:55
The purpose of any camouflage is to blend in with one's environment. During times of civil unrest if one is running around wearing BDUs in a camouflage pattern they will stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. My idea of camouflage during civil unrest is a pair of jeans, a t-shirt, and a baseball cap as I want to blend in and not draw attention to myself.

Exactly why SOF teams and contractors wear Khaki or solid color bdu pants, 5.11 shoes, and Tshirts or Polos in urban environments. Although, rolling around strapped with a plate carrier and a boom stick is a pretty big indicator.

LRS143
07-07-11, 09:46
Civil Disobedience... How about this on the 4th from these proud Americans.
http://youtu.be/CIOovPCDUJY

Khaki will obviously draw much less attention.

Irish
07-07-11, 11:51
We've had 3 murders in the past 11 days on The Strip which isn't very common. I believe one of the contributing factors is hotels have lowered their room rates significantly due to the economy resulting in a less than desirable crowd. Combine the summer heat, the "no laws" in Vegas attitude, lots of booze and trashy people for a very volatile situation.

Then at a funeral of one of the people killed on the Strip we get some asshole opening up with a gun and shooting 7 people. http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/jul/06/7-shot-after-funeral-man-stabbed-death-las-vegas-s/

Remember, it is legal to conceal carry on the Strip and in hotels & casinos.

LRS143
07-07-11, 18:55
The deterioration of society will pick up speed. You can see happening every day. Then there will be a defining moment when things really implode.

Logicalpath
07-07-11, 22:04
Everything is tied to gas...and I mean everything...as gas prices go up, so do our chances of civil unrest/shtf or whatever you want to call it...

I wish so bad that I were already out in the country, but at least I'm not in the inner city...

I concur and I hope that I can get out of the city soon.

Something interesting towards the end of the video in the OP is that they began confiscating weapons. That could be a real problem for me! I guess concealment will be paramount even in those circumstances.

suhu
07-07-11, 22:44
I am just hoping that some of my investments pay off before it gets too bad.

Silo home here I come. :) Hardened bunker, natural wells, underground water/fuel tanks, generator room, and plenty of storage area.

Logicalpath
07-07-11, 22:48
I am just hoping that some of my investments pay off before it gets too bad.

Silo home here I come. :) Hardened bunker, natural wells, underground water/fuel tanks, generator room, and plenty of storage area.

You and me both! LOL

From a constitutional stand point there is no grounds for the seizure of weapons from law abiding citizens. That said if CONGRESS was to suspend the writ of habeas corpus then that would change the ball game all together. Unfortunately for us if history is any indicator then we may see the president violate that check & balance(like Lincoln did).

Just a Jarhead
07-08-11, 03:04
Something interesting towards the end of the video in the OP is that they began confiscating weapons. That could be a real problem for me!

Very delicate subject. Without getting in to details, expect it at some point and plan ahead! It may never happen but it could. I don't think the mods on here will appreciate a full out discussion on this so I'm tip-toeing here. Any attempt by the gov. to do such could produce a variety of responses & consequences. War game scenarios ahead in your head, think about how you would/should respond if there's a knock on the door and your wife and little ones are home, and plan for any eventuality that comes down the pike. Thinking through this NOW to the best logical conclusion of how to handle this, should it ever happen, is best! Simply put...Have a plan B! Prior proper planning prevent piss poor performance.

Clarkm
07-08-11, 08:52
Once the welfare gravy train screeches to a halt, things will get ugly in a hurry.

Don't forget the "gangs", "youths" and "flash mobs" committing heinous violent crime. Things are already ugly.

By the way, why is it racist to mention the perpetrator's race?

OK, back on track now.

As for weapon confiscation, I am sure the feds and many locals have planned for it. If that day comes, it will be a very, very bad time to be wearing a uniform.

Just a Jarhead
07-08-11, 09:11
If that day comes, it will be a very, very bad time to be wearing a uniform.

Understand but best not go down that road on here. We have lots of awesome constitution loving LEO on here who many of us have no doubt would defend and uphold the 2nd amendment. This will get shut down quickly if we go down that path so best to speak very generically if at all on this touchy subject.

my 1 1/2 cents

Clarkm
07-08-11, 09:16
I don't mean to impugn anyone who is posting here, or those who do not post here but defend us and our rights every day. But it is also best to be practical, and friends wearing a uniform need to know, both for their own decision making and for their own personal safety, that there may be lines in the sand. I think every patrolman knows there are lines in the sand whenever he approaches a potential bad guy, not just about this issue, but about dozens. There is simply no need to provoke people.

I know a lady who used to be a cop. She became a prosecutor. When she was a cop she could turn any call into a near riot simply by her approach to people. It wasn't necessary for her to belike that, but I suppose she couldn't help it. She crossed the line often and was lucky that she was never seriously injured because of it.

QuietShootr
07-08-11, 09:24
I would let this go, for multiple reasons.

1) You either will or won't fight. Thumping your chest on the internet is meaningless, and indeed counterproductive - you have just transmitted indications and warning of your mindset and possible future behavior. This means that even if you decide you're going to roll over when someone threatens your job, your wife, and your kids, the fact that you were woofing about it means you'll be treated like David Koresh regardless of what you're actually going to do when push comes to shove.
2) Documented premeditation of anything someone might decide is criminal is bad.
3) Most people won't fight, regardless of what they say anyway, so any bullshit to the contrary is just bullshit until the rubber meets the road, and bullshit is a waste of time.
4) You're going to terminally butt-hurt a number of people here, several of whom have the power to close this thread and/or ban you.

Just let it go. You'll do or not do whatever you have the stomach for when your gut-check comes, and woofing about it here doesn't mean a thing.



I don't mean to impugn anyone who is posting here, or those who do not post here but defend us and our rights every day. But it is also best to be practical, and friends wearing a uniform need to know, both for their own decision making and for their own personal safety, that there may be lines in the sand. I think every patrolman knows there are lines in the sand whenever he approaches a potential bad guy, not just about this issue, but about dozens. There is simply no need to provoke people.

I know a lady who used to be a cop. She became a prosecutor. When she was a cop she could turn any call into a near riot simply by her approach to people. It wasn't necessary for her to belike that, but I suppose she couldn't help it. She crossed the line often and was lucky that she was never seriously injured because of it.

Irish
07-08-11, 10:56
Understand but best not go down that road on here. We have lots of awesome constitution loving LEO on here who many of us have no doubt would defend and uphold the 2nd amendment. This will get shut down quickly if we go down that path so best to speak very generically if at all on this touchy subject.

You and QuietShootr are right on point about this subject, drop it please. QS detailed the reasons for it in his post and I couldn't agree more. There is valuable subject matter in this thread and I'd like to continue it so please throttle back on the police confiscation of weapons.

Thanks to all.

Just a Jarhead
07-08-11, 11:31
Then there will be a defining moment when things really implode.

This! You can feel the tension. Most everyone feels it. Even those with their head still up their ass sense things are terribly wrong. It's like a rubber band being stretched to it's limit. We're all eyes wide open waiting for that moment when the other shoe drops.

Funny thing is, I think the people that know me would say that I'm one of the happiest people that they know. I'm always laughing and telling jokes. I don't let things get me so pessimistic I get depressed or in a funk but I am also a realist, tuned in and try to stay informed. It would be so much easier, less stressful and less expensive not be be but my DNA just isn't programmed that way.

Ga Shooter
07-08-11, 11:58
You and QuietShootr are right on point about this subject, drop it please. QS detailed the reasons for it in his post and I couldn't agree more. There is valuable subject matter in this thread and I'd like to continue it so please throttle back on the police confiscation of weapons.

Thanks to all.

This!!! This is some of the best eye opening info I have seen in a while. Lets please not ruin it.

Just a Jarhead
07-08-11, 12:01
This!!! This is some of the best eye opening info I have seen in a while. Lets please not ruin it.

Damn GA..LOL I changed t he subject and you took it right back...your turn to change gears dude!

Ironman8
07-08-11, 12:42
Soo anyways...does anyone find it odd that the media doesn't seem to be covering all this "social unrest" that Irish has brought to our attention? At least not on a national scale...

Doc Safari
07-08-11, 12:49
Soo anyways...does anyone find it odd that the media doesn't seem to be covering all this "social unrest" that Irish has brought to our attention? At least not on a national scale...

Wait until the next Repbulican president takes office. Then you will see every media outlet showing the unrest and saying that the unrest is due to the policies of the Republican administration.

(Not that I'm a big fan of the Republican party, but I did want to point out the double standard in the media).

Irish
07-08-11, 13:00
Soo anyways...does anyone find it odd that the media doesn't seem to be covering all this "social unrest" that Irish has brought to our attention? At least not on a national scale...

One of the reasons I believe it isn't all over headline news is the fact that the vast majority, if not all, of these mob criminals are blacks. The same reason we don't prosecute the Black Panthers for intimidating voters, etc. It would be deemed racist in some form or fashion when in reality it is what it is, mobs of blacks looting, robbing and assaulting people.

Ga Shooter
07-08-11, 13:05
Soo anyways...does anyone find it odd that the media doesn't seem to be covering all this "social unrest" that Irish has brought to our attention? At least not on a national scale...


Damn GA..LOL I changed t he subject and you took it right back...your turn to change gears dude!

The media here has been down right asked(unoffically of course) not to post all the crime because it might hurt the tourism trade!! (how was that Jarhead?):D

MIKE G
07-08-11, 15:07
Funny thing is, I think the people that know me would say that I'm one of the happiest people that they know. I'm always laughing and telling jokes. I don't let things get me so pessimistic I get depressed or in a funk but I am also a realist, tuned in and try to stay informed. It would be so much easier, less stressful and less expensive not be be but my DNA just isn't programmed that way.

There is a certain level of peace that can be found in knowing you are at least moderately prepared both through mindset, training, planning, and purchasing of appropriate beans/bullets/bandaids to handle serious situations that can happen. There are very few people that choose to ignore that bad things can happen and never have something bad disrupt their day. Even something as little as a flat tire/car trouble, busted water pipe in house, an injury etc up to major events like a house fire, weather related damage, etc. By not having the ability to concisely deal with these events it brings added stress into life after they do happen. It's like insurance, it just makes life easier when bad things happen.

Granted that argument may not work for some as it seems more and more common for people to not have home owners insurance, health insurance, or even legit car insurance.

Just a Jarhead
07-08-11, 16:28
There is a certain level of peace that can be found in knowing you are at least moderately prepared both through mindset, training, planning, and purchasing of appropriate beans/bullets/bandaids to handle serious situations that can happen.

Definitely! This is a large part of my peace and happiness and as politically incorrect as it may sound to some, at peace with my GOD also. Firm reliance on Divine Providence, that's who I am. I ain't no saint. I drink, curse occasionally, love an off colored joke. I'm normal (so says me) but I ain't to proud to believe. Let the chips fall where they may.

Just a Jarhead
07-08-11, 16:29
(how was that Jarhead?):D

A+ for the effort GA. Redeemed!

Ga Shooter
07-08-11, 16:33
A+ for the effort GA. Redeemed!

YEA ME!!

QuietShootr
07-08-11, 17:43
One of the reasons I believe it isn't all over headline news is the fact that the vast majority, if not all, of these mob criminals are blacks. The same reason we don't prosecute the Black Panthers for intimidating voters, etc. It would be deemed racist in some form or fashion when in reality it is what it is, mobs of blacks looting, robbing and assaulting people.

This is the answer, but we'd better let that one go too, lest we be accused of being "88s". The favorite insult to hurl at anyone who says something you don't like, even if it's true.

a1fabweld
07-08-11, 23:51
One of the reasons I believe it isn't all over headline news is the fact that the vast majority, if not all, of these mob criminals are blacks. The same reason we don't prosecute the Black Panthers for intimidating voters, etc. It would be deemed racist in some form or fashion when in reality it is what it is, mobs of blacks looting, robbing and assaulting people.

I couldn't agree with you more. It is what it is. History has proven this.

Moose-Knuckle
07-09-11, 00:16
One of the reasons I believe it isn't all over headline news is the fact that the vast majority, if not all, of these mob criminals are blacks. The same reason we don't prosecute the Black Panthers for intimidating voters, etc. It would be deemed racist in some form or fashion when in reality it is what it is, mobs of blacks looting, robbing and assaulting people.

Ahh yes the great American double standard. . .:nono:

On the topic of mass civil disobedience. . .

The state ran media, oops I mean free press has had a total blackout on racial crimes where the victims were white for years. Yet they have the polar opposite approach to the reverse. Take the Rodney King incident for example. The 53 deaths, 2,383 injuries, 7,000 fires, damages to over 3,100 businesses, and nearly $1 billion in financial losses were all a result of the national media playing over and over again a mere few seconds of George Holliday's video of Mr. King resisting arrest.

Irish
07-11-11, 12:18
MN - Mob attacks family. http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/07/09/mother-teenage-girl-mob-attacked-my-family/

TX - 7 Churches have A/C stolen or destroyed. http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/07/11/rash-of-air-conditioner-thefts-from-parker-co-churches/

Clarkm
07-12-11, 09:57
\ It would be deemed racist in some form or fashion when in reality it is what it is, mobs of blacks looting, robbing and assaulting people.

It is racist. Those black mobs are not targeting black people. The FBI website used to post crime statistics by race and the black on rate rape rate was something like 140x the white on black murder rate, and the black on white murder rate was something like 20x the white on black murder rate. I can't verify these numbers because Eric Holder took the info off the FBI website. Perhaps he found it embarrassing.

hatidua
07-12-11, 10:09
I lived in a nice waterfront community in Florida when a number of hurricanes made landfall in '04. It was really interesting to see the Benz driving 7-figure earners turn into wild eyed menaces when the conveniences of modern life came to a halt.

While I agree that the first to riot may be the welfare types, when things get truly ugly, predicting who will behave and who won't becomes somewhat more difficult.

Beat Trash
07-12-11, 14:08
I lived in a nice waterfront community in Florida when a number of hurricanes made landfall in '04. It was really interesting to see the Benz driving 7-figure earners turn into wild eyed menaces when the conveniences of modern life came to a halt.

While I agree that the first to riot may be the welfare types, when things get truly ugly, predicting who will behave and who won't becomes somewhat more difficult.

I agree...

THe welfare types are the threats you would expect, and therefore have your guard up when you saw them coming. The real threat would be those Benz driving, tree hugging, Soccer mom types who are unprepared, scared and panicking. This could be your next door neighbor. I feel these types pose more of a threat only because you wouldn't be as likely to expect it, therefore you'd be more likely to be caught off guard.

If you have more to loose from your normal standard of living, the fall will be more of a shock.

One of the few advantages of almost two decades of LEO work. You tend to trust no one.

Just a Jarhead
07-13-11, 03:05
I agree...

THe welfare types are the threats you would expect, and therefore have your guard up when you saw them coming. The real threat would be those Benz driving, tree hugging, Soccer mom types who are unprepared, scared and panicking. This could be your next door neighbor. I feel these types pose more of a threat only because you wouldn't be as likely to expect it, therefore you'd be more likely to be caught off guard.

If you have more to loose from your normal standard of living, the fall will be more of a shock.

One of the few advantages of almost two decades of LEO work. You tend to trust no one.

Let me preface this by saying that I have great admiration for 99% of LEO out there. However many people believe that in a true tits up situation, where things have seriously collapsed, and life takes an ugly turn that none of us could imagine, that the most dangerous groups of all could be the biker gangs, escaped or released prisoners forming a group and some LEO banding together. (emphasis "some"). I can see all of these groups posing a distinct threat.

Of all of these, I have read that many believe, (myself included), that this last group could pose the biggest threat of all. In particular in executing home invasions. They're uniformed which says "you can trust me, I'm one of the good guys", well trained, well armed, organized, an existing brotherhood.

It's not beyond the realm of reasonable possibility. In fact it's a very strong liklihood based on the closet thing we've experienced to a shtf in this country. We saw some very ugly incidents involving LEO in N'Orleans after Katrina. Gun confiscation, shootings, looting. Just saying..trust no one is excellent advice in a tits up situation. When people are scared, desperate and starving, they do what they have to do. No matter who they are! No one is above reproach in this type of situation and no one is to be trusted.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/30/nopd.looting/index.html

Just a Jarhead
07-13-11, 03:07
double post ..delete.

Moose-Knuckle
07-13-11, 04:09
Let me preface this by saying that I have great admiration for 99% of LEO out there. However many people believe that in a true tits up situation, where things have seriously collapsed, and life takes an ugly turn that none of us could imagine, that the most dangerous groups of all could be the biker gangs, escaped or released prisoners forming a group and some LEO banding together. (emphasis "some"). I can see all of these groups posing a distinct threat.

Of all of these, I have read that many believe, (myself included), that this last group could pose the biggest threat of all. In particular in executing home invasions. They're uniformed which says "you can trust me, I'm one of the good guys", well trained, well armed, organized, an existing brotherhood.

It's not beyond the realm of reasonable possibility. In fact it's a very strong liklihood based on the closet thing we've experienced to a shtf in this country. We saw some very ugly incidents involving LEO in N'Orleans after Katrina. Just saying..trust no one is excellent advice in a tits up situation. When people are scared, desperate and starving, they do what they have to do. No matter who they are! No one is above reproach in this type of situation and no one is to be trusted.

Just one example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmQW6xLECUU

The same can be said for active duty military and or prior service members. It's a known fact that criminal organizations from MS-13 to the Hammer Skins have had members infiltrate both the Army and Marines to obtain small unit tactics, small arms training, and heavy weapons training. Ever wonder what happens to all that ordinance that “walks off” DOD installations every year?

Comparing any US LE agency to the New Orleans PD is like comparing the US Military to the Mexican Military that procures major drug shipments for the cartels via armed convoys and gunships.

Besides, the average US LEO is a family man and in true TEOTWAWKI fashion would be quite reluctant to report for duty as their family supersedes their measly paychecks. While I don't trust ANYONE as it is, when the SHTF those in our society who feel that people with a lighter shade of skin "owe them" will be front and center.

Beat Trash
07-13-11, 06:46
THis is the first I've ever heard of the idea of LEO's banding together to roam amuck during a true SHTF incident. Just saying...

The usual question on preparedness boards for LEO's is, if forced to chose between going to work or seeing to the safety of one's family, which do you choose? The usual answer seems to be, both on boards and during private conversations, family first.

Most LEO's I've discussed this with felt that if they could ensure their families safety, then they'd be at work.

For LEO's out there, a plan for your families safety is one of many things you must plan for. Anyone who's worked during a week or two of full scale riots can appreciate this.

As for mass civil disobedience, aka riots, I spent two weeks working one in 2001. A very eye opening experience. I'd strongly suggest the ability to maintain a low profile and being able to bug in. It's a bad time to need to buy groceries when the rioters are burning and looting the store. It's also a good reason to have bug out plans, even if you are set to bug in. You need to devise a "trigger" for when it's time to leave. Have backup routes and plans.

NoveskeFan
07-13-11, 07:21
THis is the first I've ever heard of the idea of LEO's banding together to roam amuck during a true SHTF incident. Just saying...

The usual question on preparedness boards for LEO's is, if forced to chose between going to work or seeing to the safety of one's family, which do you choose? The usual answer seems to be, both on boards and during private conversations, family first.

Most LEO's I've discussed this with felt that if they could ensure their families safety, then they'd be at work.

For LEO's out there, a plan for your families safety is one of many things you must plan for. Anyone who's worked during a week or two of full scale riots can appreciate this.

As for mass civil disobedience, aka riots, I spent two weeks working one in 2001. A very eye opening experience. I'd strongly suggest the ability to maintain a low profile and being able to bug in. It's a bad time to need to buy groceries when the rioters are burning and looting the store. It's also a good reason to have bug out plans, even if you are set to bug in. You need to devise a "trigger" for when it's time to leave. Have backup routes and plans.

Well said. All the LEO's I know say family first. If its the end of society/government I could see some LEO's working together, but most likely it will be neighbors banding together to survive.

Just a Jarhead
07-13-11, 07:30
The same can be said for active duty military and or prior service members. .

Most definitely! And one big group I neglected to mention is the Ayran Brotherhood.



THis is the first I've ever heard of the idea of LEO's banding together to roam amuck during a true SHTF incident.

Yes it's been hypothesized on various survival sites such as an article by well known James Wesley Rawles, former military Intelligence Officer, on survivalblog.com I certainly do recognize that this is all hypothesis since it's unchartered waters.

I certainly agree and want to clarify that I do believe that the overwhelming vast majority of LEO are great Americans, good family men and will do the right thing. It's just that there may be an element when things go totally upside down that could pose a threat. And the uniform can make them especially dangerous invoking a false sense of trust in "these" particular individuals. I would expect imposter's in uniforms also to be knocking on doors to gain entry as well. That may be an even greater threat. The scenario I'm talking about falls into the whole nation is tits up and it's "survival of the fittest" category. Just something to consider.

Here's the article by Rawles touching on the subject:
http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/01/coa_analysis_of_common_surviva.html

viperashes
07-13-11, 07:45
Let me preface this by saying that I have great admiration for 99% of LEO out there. However many people believe that in a true tits up situation, where things have seriously collapsed, and life takes an ugly turn that none of us could imagine, that the most dangerous groups of all could be the biker gangs, escaped or released prisoners forming a group and some LEO banding together. (emphasis "some"). I can see all of these groups posing a distinct threat.

Of all of these, I have read that many believe, (myself included), that this last group could pose the biggest threat of all. In particular in executing home invasions. They're uniformed which says "you can trust me, I'm one of the good guys", well trained, well armed, organized, an existing brotherhood.

It's not beyond the realm of reasonable possibility. In fact it's a very strong liklihood based on the closet thing we've experienced to a shtf in this country. We saw some very ugly incidents involving LEO in N'Orleans after Katrina. Gun confiscation, shootings, looting. Just saying..trust no one is excellent advice in a tits up situation. When people are scared, desperate and starving, they do what they have to do. No matter who they are! No one is above reproach in this type of situation and no one is to be trusted.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/30/nopd.looting/index.html

Having ridden with a few "biker gangs", most of these guys are not what people perceive them to be. Granted, there are the 1%er Clubs, Hells Angels, Los Bandidos, Mongols, Pagans, etc. But that's exactly why they call themselves "1% Clubs" because they form only a minority in the Motorcycle Club community. Most MCs are formed primarily of men who are prior service, and are more the survivalist types than crazed hooligans out to cause mayhem and destruction. I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the "biker" cliche.

In a TEOTWAWKI situation, these groups would be the first to bunker down and fortify a position, rather than go out and start causing mayhem. Almost every club I've ridden with has been composed of guys who are extremely prepared for a situation like this, rather than waiting for S to actually HTF.

Also, if there was a situation where society actually did fall apart, felon prisoners (murderers, rapists, etc.) would I'm sure be the last thing on most LEOs minds as far as letting them go to give them a fighting chance. That's just me guessing, but I wouldn't doubt if I'm dead on with this. The gangbangers on the street would pose more of a threat in my opinion, as they are already free to actively roam and pursue what they would need to survive, if they had to rape, kill, or steal to get it.


The same can be said for active duty military and or prior service members. It's a known fact that criminal organizations from MS-13 to the Hammer Skins have had members infiltrate both the Army and Marines to obtain small unit tactics, small arms training, and heavy weapons training. Ever wonder what happens to all that ordinance that “walks off” DOD installations every year?

Comparing any US LE agency to the New Orleans PD is like comparing the US Military to the Mexican Military that procures major drug shipments for the cartels via armed convoys and gunships.

Besides, the average US LEO is a family man and in true TEOTWAWKI fashion would be quite reluctant to report for duty as their family supersedes their measly paychecks. While I don't trust ANYONE as it is, when the SHTF those in our society who feel that people with a lighter shade of skin "owe them" will be front and center.

Concidering the camaraderie most enlisted men have with each other, and the fact that at every unit I've ever been at, I've lived with or close to the armorer that runs my armory bay. Having known them personally, I would say that military armories would empty out pretty quickly, and, speaking from a Marine point of view, I could see platoons arming themselves and sticking together in small teams (Fire teams of 3-5 or squads of 10-13). A small specialized team is easier to sustain and maneuver than a large element. The large elements would be better equipped from the get go, but I think would quickly fall apart because of the logistics involved with feeding, watering, and supplying a group that large.

Just a Jarhead
07-13-11, 08:18
Having ridden with a few "biker gangs", most of these guys are not what people perceive them to be. Granted, there are the 1%er Clubs, Hells Angels, Los Bandidos, Mongols, Pagans, etc. But that's exactly why they call themselves "1% Clubs" because they form only a minority in the Motorcycle Club community. Most MCs are formed primarily of men who are prior service, and are more the survivalist types than crazed hooligans out to cause mayhem and destruction. I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the "biker" cliche.

I was referencing Biker Gangs, the 1%'ers, not biker clubs and I grew up in burbs of philly & I too have known my share of pagans & warlocks in my younger days. Such nice fella's hunh?

viperashes
07-13-11, 10:35
I was referencing Biker Gangs, the 1%'ers, not biker clubs and I grew up in burbs of philly & I too have known my share of pagans & warlocks in my younger days. Such nice fella's hunh?

As long as I stay out of range of their "walking sticks" and they stay away from the business end of my PWS, neither of us will have a bad day. :lol: "Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" apparently doesn't apply to some people, according to "some people". :D

Just a Jarhead
07-13-11, 12:04
"Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" apparently doesn't apply to some people, according to "some people". :D

Hunh??? No one implied denying anyone the above but those pieces of shit are notorious for their criminal pursuits. Pure scum bags. As I've said I've known a few personally. Actually had to kick the living shit out of 2 of them about 20 years ago. Separately. Pagan's in Phila. burbs. Beat the piss out of one, he wracked his bike up a week later and got killed. His buddy came after me after that and I proceeded to **** his day up and put a dent in his health record too. They never bothered me again.

viperashes
07-13-11, 23:51
Hunh??? No one implied denying anyone the above but those pieces of shit are notorious for their criminal pursuits. Pure scum bags. As I've said I've known a few personally. Actually had to kick the living shit out of 2 of them about 20 years ago. Separately. Pagan's in Phila. burbs. Beat the piss out of one, he wracked his bike up a week later and got killed. His buddy came after me after that and I proceeded to **** his day up and put a dent in his health record too. They never bothered me again.

Sorry, the point was kind of lost. I was the one implying that. I meant that guys like the Pagans or H.A.'s don't give a shit about other people's civil liberties. All I was saying is that there are very small groups of people that have very big heads, and think that somehow they are above the law.

Just a Jarhead
07-14-11, 03:11
Thanks for clearing that up! All's good.

docsherm
07-14-11, 08:05
Let me preface this by saying that I have great admiration for 99% of LEO out there. However many people believe that in a true tits up situation, where things have seriously collapsed, and life takes an ugly turn that none of us could imagine, that the most dangerous groups of all could be the biker gangs, escaped or released prisoners forming a group and some LEO banding together. (emphasis "some"). I can see all of these groups posing a distinct threat.

Of all of these, I have read that many believe, (myself included), that this last group could pose the biggest threat of all. In particular in executing home invasions. They're uniformed which says "you can trust me, I'm one of the good guys", well trained, well armed, organized, an existing brotherhood.

It's not beyond the realm of reasonable possibility. In fact it's a very strong liklihood based on the closet thing we've experienced to a shtf in this country. We saw some very ugly incidents involving LEO in N'Orleans after Katrina. Gun confiscation, shootings, looting. Just saying..trust no one is excellent advice in a tits up situation. When people are scared, desperate and starving, they do what they have to do. No matter who they are! No one is above reproach in this type of situation and no one is to be trusted.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/30/nopd.looting/index.html

I can say that this is a very real thing. It happens all over the world. The local Police start to set up road blocks and taking stuff for the "community". Do they rove around and take things outside their area? From what I have seen they do not. But you are free game in their "jurisdiction". Just be aware. We are told of where the real check points are and act accordingly to the illegal ones. :smile:

QuietShootr
07-14-11, 09:53
I can say that this is a very real thing. It happens all over the world. The local Police start to set up road blocks and taking stuff for the "community". Do they rove around and take things outside their area? From what I have seen they do not. But you are free game in their "jurisdiction". Just be aware. We are told of where the real check points are and act accordingly to the illegal ones. :smile:

This. And a good piece of information to keep in mind.

4x4twenty6
07-14-11, 22:34
As a LEO I have thought long hard about this situation occurring. I just recently moved from New Orleans, born and raised about 45 minutes south east of NO, to Arkansas because my wife got a great a job here.
The day they tell us that we have to go take folks guns is they day that shield comes off. I'm an American first and I'll be damned if someone is gonna force me to take a free mans gun. They sure as shitnwont get mine.
As far as being prepared, my parents and a few other of my best friends parents bought 30 acres together north of new Orleans in the woods and now have their own nice little subdivision. they are prepared. Katrina should a be a text book lesson of what it will be like. FUBAR!
Unfortunately i do not have my own compound where I can grow my own food and adequately protect my self, I will one day though.
I do have an advantage, my wife is a dr. Security(me) and medical knowledge(the wife) is a good combination, and I can tell you right now that this country boy can survive.
I have learned what i need to do to survive growing and workin there.

Just a Jarhead
07-15-11, 03:17
The day they tell us that we have to go take folks guns is they day that shield comes off. I'm an American first and I'll be damned if someone is gonna force me to take a free mans gun. They sure as shitnwont get mine.


Welcome! This kind of testimony makes my day.

I believe any full out confiscation would have to invovle military participation. There's just too many gun owners to successfully and timely grab them all under a marshall law situation before things got ugly. Some 40 million gun owners.

There was a frightening report I read a couple of years ago which asked military personnel if the time came that they were ordered to fire on US Citizens would they do it. An alarming amount (30% if I recall properly) said they would. These were mostly younger 18-30. There's a group trying to combat this called Oathkeepers made up mostly of active and former LEO and military who get literature into their hands to educate them on the constitution, 2nd amendment etc. and to educate them on the fact & the importance that they took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution, not a President or any other person.

viperashes
07-15-11, 04:02
As an active duty Marine, I've given 5 years of faithful service to my country and my government. I've gone where they told me to go, I've done what they've told me to do, I've sucked it up when things were completely bullshit. But if my country ever told me that I had to kill my own countrymen without cause, I would be disgraced to wear this uniform that I am so very proud to have worn.

Granted, there may very well someday be a situation where Martial Law must be declared. Mass rioting, looting, etc. Nationwide Katrina riots. Nationwide LA riots. Bombings, killings, mass civil upheaval. That day may very well even be close. But if it ever comes to a point where I must choose a side, I can't say that I would support the corrupt, bought out politics of our legal system and government leadership.

Maybe this is what we need. Society to fall apart. For Government to crumble and fall apart. I can guarantee that this country would rise from the ashes of those fires a better nation. Cleansed of the bullshit and the corruption. We wouldn't be unprepared for this. Even if our military fell apart, we have enough armed private citizens to create a large militia. Like at the beginning of our great country. Minute men, defending their freedom by standing for themselves, against odds that probably seemed insurmountable.

The private citizen stood up for himself and didn't rely on government to do anything to protect him. Today, our government tries so hard to regulate the tools we have to defend ourselves, that the common, law abiding man has been castrated from defending he and his from the scum that seeks to take that which isn't theirs.

Look at the crime rates in places like Commiefornia, or New York, or D.C., OUR NATIONS CAPITAL. Crime rates in large metropolitan areas where our guns are regulated to the point where the criminal gets 2-5 years in prison for illegally carrying a gun and is back on the street, the law abiding citizen gets DEAD for not carrying his registered weapon for which he has permit upon permit upon permit to own, carry, and conceal elsewhere. For as much as I love this country and the civil liberties that I have, I can't stand the road that we've gone down, and the ass sideways stance that our politicians and leadership have taken toward our right to bear arms and defend ourselves.

I'm sorry for the long rant, but it needed to be said.

Just a Jarhead
07-15-11, 07:12
2 things:
1). oooorah!!
&
2). much truth in that rant!

Clarkm
07-15-11, 07:39
"Maybe this is what we need. Society to fall apart. For Government to crumble and fall apart. I can guarantee that this country would rise from the ashes of those fires a better nation."

I hope you are right. Often revolutions are hijacked by the most radical and most ruthless element, which would be the uber left in this country. They would have no qualms at all about using DHS to kill fellow citizens, and no doubt they would try to use that same apparatus to establish a new and even more dictatorial government than the one we have now.

viperashes
07-15-11, 08:03
I honestly believe that through the disorganization of mass societal breakdown, groups, tribes, and clans would be formed by groups of people with elected leadership. What happened in the old west when the Sheriff, who was also elected by the people, was corrupt or didn't do his job. Shot dead. **** 'em. New Sheriff is elected by the people. I truely do believe that people want leadership. But we want leadership that is going to help us when we need it, not restrict us to the point that we rely solely on them to lead us in whatever they feel is the right direction. We are a free nation that has been suckered into dependence on our government. We are the perpetual mouse on a wheel, chasing the cheese that we will never catch. We've been duped into allowing our government to dictate our inalienable human rights, as well as the rights granted us by the constitution of our own United States of America.

Just a Jarhead
07-15-11, 10:18
With the huge degree of the "entitlement mentality" in this country presently, and the inevitability of some sort of immigration reform down the road creating million of new democrat libtard voters, and our dumbed down school system doing everything they can to produce little Marxist libtards, conservatives and conservative values are screwed long term without some sort of collapse, resetting financially & restructuring.

Our differences and beliefs as a people, as a nation, have just become too distinctly different. We are no longer 1 people but several people trying to find a way to cohesively and peacefully co-exist which is becoming more difficult with each year. We are diametrically opposed to each other. Polar opposites.

I've described before that we can all feel the rubberband being stretched to its limit. Something has to give.

The serious question remains...what do we do with all the libtards when when things reset? Without a fundamental shift (re-education) in their values and them retaining their right to vote, we'll be right back in the same situation in no time. I'll never advocate exterminating them, it goes against my beliefs. But some plan has to be put into action regarding them. In a sick twisted way....maybe things will get darn right nasty and most of them get killed off in the ensuing chaos. Maybe a financial collapse is a blessing in disguise on many levels. We've already lost our country in so many ways. 1 asshole aethist can make a town take down a Christmas tree or take the 10 commandments down etc etc ..you all know it all, I don't have to list it all here. Sick & twisted I know but most of you know there's some truth in there. Very perplexing problem.

4x4twenty6
07-15-11, 10:54
In the event of mass civil unrest, I really think it will be mainly these leftist jackholes and criminals who will be rioting to prove a point. The intelligent folks will be hunkered down ready to defend themselves.

When the time comes, Darwins glorious idea of Survival of the Fittest will rear it's head and these pu$$y little non gun toting, leftist punks will not survive. They are weekest of our herd and will be thinned out, not because they will be targeted, but because of their backwards ass way of viewing the world.

As a LEO, in regards to civil unrest, I would find it difficult fire upon my fellow man if the citizens of this country decided enough is enough. I wish we could avoid a violent show of force to get the point across that we will not allow this type behavior from our elected leaders to continue.
We need to get our congressman and senators and president to truly represent the majority. Cuz it sure as shit isn't now.

viperashes
07-15-11, 10:57
Just remember, the liberals don't believe in private gun ownership. ;)

Molon Labe

QuietShootr
07-15-11, 11:33
Just remember, the liberals don't believe in private gun ownership. ;)

Molon Labe


Yeah... you know what? I love everything both you guys have said on this page up till that point. But: I can tell you a few things you might not be taking seriously. Despite what our "I AM DA LAW" types will tell you, they know the truth of what I'm saying, because they get the same FOUO/LES briefs that I get. Most of them won't admit it publicly, though.

I know a Marine Infantry officer, active duty, who is a goddamned card-carrying CPUSA member. He owns a shitload of ARs, and is prepping for fighting people like us. And he's pretty damn far from the only one. You have to remember that half this country doesn't have beliefs that are even remotely compatible with ours, and of our half, half or better of them are wishy-washy at best compared to ours. Hell, we have guys on this site who think most people shouldn't be allowed to carry guns.

There are Muslim training camps right here in the Good Ol', and they're fully armed and some are combat veterans. They're waiting for this thing to kick off, and they aren't going to be on our side when it happens.

There are vast numbers of Good Ol' Boy Union types who have lots of guns and who will absolutely not be on our side. (One of them is on this site, he's from my state, and I've actually met him once.) Some of them (though by all means, damn few) know what they're doing.

Do NOT underestimate the Threat forces, as we used to say back in the Cold War.

The Che' wearing shirt brigade are largely patchouli-stinking jackoffs, but there are some genuine radicals in there who are violent, have some idea what they're doing, and unlike 90% of the gunshop mouth crowd, are actually willing to kill somebody for what they believe in. In fact, historically speaking, the leftists are FAR more likely to resort to violence first to achieve their aims. NEVER forget that.

Edited to add: I forgot about the gang members that have military training and combat experience. Don't believe me? Take a stroll through the barracks just about anywhere sometime and see what you see. Or, take a look at some of the Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings, etc..graffiti wherever a large group of US military hangs their hat.

There are a shitload of people out there who are not on our side and are not just stinking hippies with rocks and sticks.

Train accordingly.

And this is all I have to say about that.
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v

4x4twenty6
07-15-11, 12:07
quietshootr: good points... unfortunately.
i have never met some of those liberal types so i thought they were few and far between. where i am from, the only guys i ever meet and speak to about guns are like minded indviduals. i can honestly say that that i never ran across a liberal that carried guns or met a military man that wasnt of the same mind frame as me.

now as far as the gang situation goes. i was aware of that.

liberals are really violent and ugly about getting their way but when others start to show a little guts and get fired up they are the first to say "hey, whoa guys we just gotta love each other and cant we all just get along"
the media proves that every damn day.

liberals are sneaky little commies,they say one thing and do another.

i also remember hearing about these organizations targeting LEO's. that is down right crazy to me! yea they have bad cups but so does any other occupation. you get bad lawyers, doctors, and really bad fast food workers. they dont have groups targeting them. (its meant to be somewhat funny)
what it scary is that i think when the SHTF people are going to start targetting police specifically, but for the wrong reasons.
glad i got a spare plate carrier and sappy plates!!!! i even have trauma plates i kept from my old vests. need to get a little carrier that will fit my wife. haha

loving the posts btw yall its awesome

Just a Jarhead
07-15-11, 13:08
One can really start to envision just how ugly a shtf situation truly would be. Utter chaos. Wish I knew about 10, 20, 30 guys like you all down here in south Florida to band together. I'd feel much better. I'm prepared with beans, bullets & bandaids but pretty much alone down here in suburban West Palm Beach where it is a shear tinderbox just awaiting the match. Not good! I can only hope once poop starts to fly others like me will surface and we'll band together out of necessity.

With out a doubt, with ya on the 3% QuietShootr!

Just a Jarhead
07-15-11, 13:21
My plan B: I can't afford a bug-out retreat alone at this point. Self employed and the economy has hit me like everyone else. About 9 months ago I was looking at property in very rural areas and found one that would be very good, on a fresh water stream, loaded with game. Very rural and isolated, about 2 hours away from any major metropolitan area and never needing to access a major highway to get there with multiple access routes. Every couple months I go up to see if the property is still vacant. It is. I know the background on it and it has been vacant for 2 years. If I absolutely have to get out of dodge I'll load up the truck with as much as I can and squat it. Best I can do at this point. At least I have a plan B.

On the small chance it's occupied when I arrive, my supplies, skills (military and otherwise) will make negotiations to join them a plan C. Unfortunately plan D exists also. But I'll bet I can convince them that plan C is a great idea!

4x4twenty6
07-15-11, 13:33
Just a Jarhead:
Brother i know exactly how you feel! Me an my wife just moved to little rock from a small town north of new orleans for her job.

All i got up here is ass and face and that aint much and a few guns.
Everyone i trust is back home. I have a great big family and friends unit. I am very fortunate for that but it dont do me a damn bit of good being 6-7 hours away if the SHTF.

If we had to leave the city you better believe i would be headed straight to the family 30 acre compound.

After Katrina i had constant supplys, always had extra gas tanks full in the tool box of my truck and other supplys and weapons and such but i have since stopped doing that. cuz of where i was living.

When Gustav was supposed to hit NO in 08' and be like another katrina i was prepared to live on my own for probably 3 weeks. and i was on duty working the street. couldnt trust the dept to take care of us after what happened with katrina. i had my POV loaded in an elevated, secure location and ready to roll. My patrol vehicle was also loaded w/ supplys incase i couldnt get to my POV for a period of time.

i also had my 16 ft aluminum flat boat fueled up and ready to roll. i sure as hell wasnt gonna get stuck on some other assholes boat. haha.

i learned a lot from those incidents, but i have yet to put them to practice since i made my move 2 months ago.
i can assure that it will happen. just takes time. hopefully i have enough.

4x4twenty6
07-15-11, 13:50
yea i have aquired a few tactics that i can employ to make people see things my way. hahaha

a country boy can survive.
a liberal cant. running barefoot, hugging trees and eating berries only works for so long.

i found out in december after i killed a nice 140 lb. 8 pt buck that my wife is exceptional with a knife! scared the shit out me and turned me on at the same time. crazy i know! its nice knowing that your significant other knows how to survive too. very comforting.

Irish
07-15-11, 16:47
Yeah... you know what? I love everything both you guys have said on this page up till that point. But: I can tell you a few things you might not be taking seriously. Despite what our "I AM DA LAW" types will tell you, they know the truth of what I'm saying, because they get the same FOUO/LES briefs that I get. Most of them won't admit it publicly, though.

I know a Marine Infantry officer, active duty, who is a goddamned card-carrying CPUSA member. He owns a shitload of ARs, and is prepping for fighting people like us. And he's pretty damn far from the only one. You have to remember that half this country doesn't have beliefs that are even remotely compatible with ours, and of our half, half or better of them are wishy-washy at best compared to ours. Hell, we have guys on this site who think most people shouldn't be allowed to carry guns.

There are Muslim training camps right here in the Good Ol', and they're fully armed and some are combat veterans. They're waiting for this thing to kick off, and they aren't going to be on our side when it happens.

There are vast numbers of Good Ol' Boy Union types who have lots of guns and who will absolutely not be on our side. (One of them is on this site, he's from my state, and I've actually met him once.) Some of them (though by all means, damn few) know what they're doing.

Do NOT underestimate the Threat forces, as we used to say back in the Cold War.

The Che' wearing shirt brigade are largely patchouli-stinking jackoffs, but there are some genuine radicals in there who are violent, have some idea what they're doing, and unlike 90% of the gunshop mouth crowd, are actually willing to kill somebody for what they believe in. In fact, historically speaking, the leftists are FAR more likely to resort to violence first to achieve their aims. NEVER forget that.

Edited to add: I forgot about the gang members that have military training and combat experience. Don't believe me? Take a stroll through the barracks just about anywhere sometime and see what you see. Or, take a look at some of the Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings, etc..graffiti wherever a large group of US military hangs their hat.

There are a shitload of people out there who are not on our side and are not just stinking hippies with rocks and sticks.

Train accordingly.

And this is all I have to say about that.
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v

A lot of good info there that I can substantiate.

Moose-Knuckle
07-16-11, 00:14
Yeah... you know what? I love everything both you guys have said on this page up till that point. But: I can tell you a few things you might not be taking seriously. Despite what our "I AM DA LAW" types will tell you, they know the truth of what I'm saying, because they get the same FOUO/LES briefs that I get. Most of them won't admit it publicly, though.

I know a Marine Infantry officer, active duty, who is a goddamned card-carrying CPUSA member. He owns a shitload of ARs, and is prepping for fighting people like us. And he's pretty damn far from the only one. You have to remember that half this country doesn't have beliefs that are even remotely compatible with ours, and of our half, half or better of them are wishy-washy at best compared to ours. Hell, we have guys on this site who think most people shouldn't be allowed to carry guns.

There are Muslim training camps right here in the Good Ol', and they're fully armed and some are combat veterans. They're waiting for this thing to kick off, and they aren't going to be on our side when it happens.

There are vast numbers of Good Ol' Boy Union types who have lots of guns and who will absolutely not be on our side. (One of them is on this site, he's from my state, and I've actually met him once.) Some of them (though by all means, damn few) know what they're doing.

Do NOT underestimate the Threat forces, as we used to say back in the Cold War.

The Che' wearing shirt brigade are largely patchouli-stinking jackoffs, but there are some genuine radicals in there who are violent, have some idea what they're doing, and unlike 90% of the gunshop mouth crowd, are actually willing to kill somebody for what they believe in. In fact, historically speaking, the leftists are FAR more likely to resort to violence first to achieve their aims. NEVER forget that.

Edited to add: I forgot about the gang members that have military training and combat experience. Don't believe me? Take a stroll through the barracks just about anywhere sometime and see what you see. Or, take a look at some of the Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings, etc..graffiti wherever a large group of US military hangs their hat.

There are a shitload of people out there who are not on our side and are not just stinking hippies with rocks and sticks.

Train accordingly.

And this is all I have to say about that.
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v

Spot on.

Admittedly I am more than a little jaded; the last eight years working in law enforcement has given me an intimate look under the veneer of our society that the average tax payer may never encounter. The shear number of criminal organizations, gang members, oxygen thieves, despots, and degenerates in this nation is overwhelming. And to the mix those with training, military grade weaponry, and the insatiable appetite to do whatever they want whenever they want to whom so ever they want and you have a very volatile amalgamation.

As for the limp wrist pinko libtards . . .



There is no greater disaster
than underestimating your enemy.
Underestimating your enemy
means loosing your greatest assets.. - Lao Tzu

Stangman
07-16-11, 01:05
One can really start to envision just how ugly a shtf situation truly would be. Utter chaos. Wish I knew about 10, 20, 30 guys like you all down here in south Florida to band together. I'd feel much better. I'm prepared with beans, bullets & bandaids but pretty much alone down here in suburban West Palm Beach where it is a shear tinderbox just awaiting the match. Not good! I can only hope once poop starts to fly others like me will surface and we'll band together out of necessity.

With out a doubt, with ya on the 3% QuietShootr!



I can point you in the direction of some in central Florida if you'd like. One is a member here as well (also a Marine).

Just a Jarhead
07-16-11, 04:39
I can point you in the direction of some in central Florida if you'd like. One is a member here as well (also a Marine).

PM sent Stangman!

Clarkm
07-16-11, 06:54
Unfortunately plan D exists also. But I'll bet I can convince them that plan C is a great idea!

I hope Plan D means finding another spot.

Just a Jarhead
07-16-11, 08:23
I hope Plan D means finding another spot.

It absolutely does mean exactly that and the unfortunate part is that it is called "Florida camping life" out in the hither boonies full of Florida insects, snakes, gators etc. My wifes idea of camping these days is an open window in our room at the Hilton. My life will be friggin miserable...Plan B or C better work

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee373/justajarhead/harikari.jpgor I might just commit hari kari...it'll be easier and less painful...LOL

uwe1
07-17-11, 12:02
Yeah... you know what? I love everything both you guys have said on this page up till that point. But: I can tell you a few things you might not be taking seriously. Despite what our "I AM DA LAW" types will tell you, they know the truth of what I'm saying, because they get the same FOUO/LES briefs that I get. Most of them won't admit it publicly, though.

I know a Marine Infantry officer, active duty, who is a goddamned card-carrying CPUSA member. He owns a shitload of ARs, and is prepping for fighting people like us. And he's pretty damn far from the only one. You have to remember that half this country doesn't have beliefs that are even remotely compatible with ours, and of our half, half or better of them are wishy-washy at best compared to ours. Hell, we have guys on this site who think most people shouldn't be allowed to carry guns.

There are Muslim training camps right here in the Good Ol', and they're fully armed and some are combat veterans. They're waiting for this thing to kick off, and they aren't going to be on our side when it happens.

There are vast numbers of Good Ol' Boy Union types who have lots of guns and who will absolutely not be on our side. (One of them is on this site, he's from my state, and I've actually met him once.) Some of them (though by all means, damn few) know what they're doing.

Do NOT underestimate the Threat forces, as we used to say back in the Cold War.

The Che' wearing shirt brigade are largely patchouli-stinking jackoffs, but there are some genuine radicals in there who are violent, have some idea what they're doing, and unlike 90% of the gunshop mouth crowd, are actually willing to kill somebody for what they believe in. In fact, historically speaking, the leftists are FAR more likely to resort to violence first to achieve their aims. NEVER forget that.

Edited to add: I forgot about the gang members that have military training and combat experience. Don't believe me? Take a stroll through the barracks just about anywhere sometime and see what you see. Or, take a look at some of the Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings, etc..graffiti wherever a large group of US military hangs their hat.

There are a shitload of people out there who are not on our side and are not just stinking hippies with rocks and sticks.

Train accordingly.

And this is all I have to say about that.
|
|
v

That is some disturbing info right there. I knew about the gang infiltration into the military, but it appears now that there are multiple factions with considerable differences all ready to make war if things were to kick off.

Sorry for being dense, what do you mean by Good Ole' Boy Union types?

Clarkm
07-17-11, 12:20
For 20 years on the internet, since before www forums, I have been making fun of survivalist posts.

We are all survivalists, to some extent, but what I criticize are the frequent posters with bug out vehicles and a rifle. They are not disciplined thinkers. They are fantasizing about going deer hunting, taking over a grocery store, and shooting the liberal neighbors.

It is my contention, a guy who owns over 200 rifles, that of all the possible scenarios that threaten my survival, only a tiny fraction involves having a rifle.

Many of the scenarios involve cash, gold, a pass port, and a timely vacation to another country.

Most of the bug out vehicle and a rifle posters absorbed in their fantasies do not have cash, gold, or a pass port.

Those survivalists are not likely to survive.

a1fabweld
07-17-11, 13:22
For 20 years on the internet, since before www forums, I have been making fun of survivalist posts.

We are all survivalists, to some extent, but what I criticize are the frequent posters with bug out vehicles and a rifle. They are not disciplined thinkers. They are fantasizing about going deer hunting, taking over a grocery store, and shooting the liberal neighbors.

It is my contention, a guy who owns over 200 rifles, that of all the possible scenarios that threaten my survival, only a tiny fraction involves having a rifle.

Many of the scenarios involve cash, gold, a pass port, and a timely vacation to another country.

Most of the bug out vehicle and a rifle posters absorbed in their fantasies do not have cash, gold, or a pass port.

Those survivalists are not likely to survive.

I disagree with some of your logic. If S realy did HTF (or whatever you want to call it) on a large scale, do you think authorities are going to allow air traffic assuming you can even get to the airport? What if the freeways are gridlocked? Are you just going to jump in the minivan & jump borders? I believe taking a trip to a different country is a fantasy in itself during a disaster. What if big trucks can't get the grocery stores stocked so you can buy what you need? We all know what a tiny fender bender does to the flow of traffic during rush hour. And that's small potatoes. Who knows how long it would take authorities to get things back in order. Meanwhile you'd have the worst people in society taking that opportunity to come up knowing law enforcement has their hands full. Looting, robbing, breaking & entering, home invasions, etc... would be common hence the need for "200 rifles".

The day the stores won't accept your paper currency is the day that gold will be worthless as well or shortly thereafter. Gold/currency is just a tool to get tangible goods. I'm pretty well stocked up on the necessities & I wouldn't even think about trading them for a truckload of gold because who knows how long it will take to replace those necessities? My kids can't eat gold or provide shelter or warmth with it.

The bare essentials are priority. Water, food, medical supplies, clothes, shelter, blankets, etc... Self reliance is key. I agree folks should be diversified and have some cash & precious metals on hand in the event that someone will accept it, but that's secondary IMO.

Most folks I know are not randomly "heading for the hills". They're simply planning on staying put in their homes or making a small commute to a safer nearby location. The fantasy of camping out in the mountains with a knife & compass are definately a losing plan.

a1fabweld
07-17-11, 13:24
I must add that I wouldn't mind shooting the liberal neighbors.:lol:

4x4twenty6
07-17-11, 13:30
Clark m: Having cash, gold and a passport are not going to do you much good if you don't have a means of defending yourself.

I am having a difficult time understanding your post so
I will refrain from commenting any more until I do.

Are you saying those of us that carry guns in our vehicle are coo coo and are going to seek out liberals to kill, take over a grocery store and fantasize about going deer hunting?

I will admit that I have often imagined being in my deer stand watching the sun rise while it's 20 degrees, watching a deer come into a food plot that I planted and maintained. It's a beautiful thing.

Clarkm
07-17-11, 13:35
The grocery stores only have a couple days worth of food, if the big tractor trailers don't roll in and restock every night.

If there is a run on a grocery store, it can be emptied in hours.

Right now the employment is down ~ 20% if illegals and not looking are counted. That was easy destruction for the liberals, but the load line of supply and demand is like a spring. It gets stiffer, the more it is compressed. The very competent and necessary employees and tasks will be hard to stop.

There is a book, "The great Reckoning" by Davidson that looks at the history of what makes governments fail. He finds that almost without exception, the government is replaced when the money is no good. The government officials are replaced for all other problems.

The trick is to get out of a country, before the money is no good.

There are some liberals that call members of the TEA party "teabaggers" and an insult that conservatives did not understand, as conservatives are not that into sex lingo.

Conservatives sometimes have bumper stickers that says, "Liberals, limit one per day". The liberals did not get it. They thought it is about sex. Liberals are not that into hunting lingo.

4x4twenty6
07-17-11, 13:46
Do you really think that the tea party folks don't get the "teabagger" reference. Don't be so naive.

If the US economy fails then there is a good chance other countries will start to see a down turn in their economic situation. The US economy relies on more than just American dollars. It is a world industry which is why when things go bad in other countries, it effects the world.

Running is probably the worst thing you could do. But for some folks that's all they know how to do.

Not this guy.

a1fabweld
07-17-11, 13:53
The grocery stores only have a couple days worth of food, if the big tractor trailers don't roll in and restock every night.

If there is a run on a grocery store, it can be emptied in hours.

Right now the employment is down ~ 20% if illegals and not looking are counted. That was easy destruction for the liberals, but the load line of supply and demand is like a spring. It gets stiffer, the more it is compressed. The very competent and necessary employees and tasks will be hard to stop.

There is a book, "The great Reckoning" by Davidson that looks at the history of what makes governments fail. He finds that almost without exception, the government is replaced when the money is no good. The government officials are replaced for all other problems.

The trick is to get out of a country, before the money is no good.

There are some liberals that call members of the TEA party "teabaggers" and an insult that conservatives did not understand, as conservatives are not that into sex lingo.

Conservatives sometimes have bumper stickers that says, "Liberals, limit one per day". The liberals did not get it. They thought it is about sex. Liberals are not that into hunting lingo.

So I assume you have a fully stocked home in another country? If not, you'll be in the same boat when you get there as you were when you left. If the US defaults, the rest of the world is screwed as well. Hell, you might get hung in another country just for being an American at that point?

You say the Gov't will be replaced when the money is no good. This wouldn't happen overnight. There WILL be pandemonium during the transition. Will the welfare community sit idle patiently & wait until their monthly entitlement checks resume? I'll put my money on them rioting like hell. You'd better be able to paper cut them to death with your passport & throw gold coins at them in defense.

4x4twenty6
07-17-11, 14:07
A1fab is correct. +1

DWood
07-17-11, 14:15
My house is a long way from where any rioters will be coming from and my home arsenal is sufficient to defend the homestead. My dogs give a good early warning alert to activity in the neighborhood.

The only real issue I see is being caught out on the road, in the wrong neighborhood, and having to defend yourself in your vehicle. The video and the 1980 riots in Miami proved that for me. The only "regular" people killed, other than rioters, were white people in their cars in black neighborhoods. I am figuring a way for my AK Draco pistol to be deployable from the driver's seat of my truck, in addition to my every day carry pistol.

ForTehNguyen
07-17-11, 14:23
the rioting begins when the welfare checks dont buy anything. They wont bounce but they just wont buy anything.

4x4twenty6
07-17-11, 14:35
I don't mind helping out the common man. But we are light years beyond that.

The fact that in Louisiana they can get cash back off there welfare cards and get free cell phones and free minutes every month makes me f'n sick. I know this cuz im from there. My wife and I managed to live a good life in new Orleans on a cops shitty salary and her left over money from school loans. It is ridiculously expensive to live in the new Orleans area.

We managed our money accordingly, I worked extra when I could and we dont have children cuz we are not financially prepared yet. Some still use the race card as an excuse there shortcomings, I call it being financially responsible and living w/in your means.

Logicalpath
07-17-11, 14:37
The day the stores won't accept your paper currency is the day that gold will be worthless as well or shortly thereafter. Gold/currency is just a tool to get tangible goods. I'm pretty well stocked up on the necessities & I wouldn't even think about trading them for a truckload of gold because who knows how long it will take to replace those necessities? My kids can't eat gold or provide shelter or warmth with it.

I agree with your position and most of what you said in this post and the one after. However, what you're saying about gold is wrong. Fiat Currency is a derivative which is supposed to derive it's value from "something else". In the case of the United States that is now the "full faith & credit of the U.S", which IMO is worthless. Gold is a commodity which is what was considered money for more than 6000 years. That was until 1913 but I won't get into that.

Just as an example, this week the value of the dollar dropped and gold soared. In simple terms gold is a hedge on the dollar...it's actually money not like the pieces of paper that stores are still willing to take as a form of payment.

Just a Jarhead
07-17-11, 14:40
I think the vast majority of us realize there are many degree's of a shtf situation. From a minor disruption, to very gradual slow slide to all out TEOTWAWKI.

And the causes of a shtf fan could be one of many. A financial collapse is front and center but it could be a terrorist attack; nuclear, biological, or emp. Multiple major cirties at once. Don't think those entrusted to keep us safe aren't losing sleep over this. Or something we haven't even thought of yet.

And if you really wanted to destroy your enemy, you kick him when he is down! Turmoil in this country, due to a financial system collapse, would present a golden opportunity to every rogue nation to thump us. I would expect that.

History teaches us alot, for those who want to learn it. We can learn alot about reading about the economic collapse in Argentina in 2001. http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Survival-Manual-Surviving-Economic/dp/9870563457. I've read it several times. One can also read about the economic collapse in Zimbabwe and the farmers that were killed by the thousands. Bugging out to a rural location can be one of the worst moves. History teaches us that. So if you think you remote location is safe, you better read these books. http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Zimbabwe-Countdown-Geoff-Hill/product-reviews/1868726525/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

Several comments. The one thing this book on Argentina, and perhaps Clarkm dismisses, is that our situation is different here in the U.S. We are the world's reserve currency and as others have stated if the good ole US goes belly up financially, the seismic shocks around the world will be daunting. No one will be safe economically or militarily with the US in turmoil. We're unfortunately, the only grown up on the planet that can truly intercede and stop many rogue nations from exploiting others.

Second, Argentina nor Zimbabwe didn't have every rogue nation in the world gunning for it.

Most of us would agree that bugging in and trying to keep your community running and as normal as possible is the optimum situation. But if one is to be truly prepared they would be prepared for a worst case scenario as well. One would have multiple plans ready. Ihope I never have to exercise anything beyond my plan A which is bugging in and hunkering down for thingsto calm down.

a1fabweld
07-17-11, 17:06
I agree with your position and most of what you said in this post and the one after. However, what you're saying about gold is wrong. Fiat Currency is a derivative which is supposed to derive it's value from "something else". In the case of the United States that is now the "full faith & credit of the U.S", which IMO is worthless. Gold is a commodity which is what was considered money for more than 6000 years. That was until 1913 but I won't get into that.

Just as an example, this week the value of the dollar dropped and gold soared. In simple terms gold is a hedge on the dollar...it's actually money not like the pieces of paper that stores are still willing to take as a form of payment.

My thinking goes a little further down the road of a SHTF situation. IMO, tangible goods will value the highest. Everybody is going to need necessities like food, water, weapons, etc...

I often think about a situation where we're acquiring supplies or trading. The dollar has no value other than toilet paper. If the infrastructure slows or stops, & you end up bartering for goods, the likelyhood of finding someone with such a huge abundence of resources where they could do without some in trade for gold/silver coins is slim. I know if I had a heaping 3 car garage full to the ceiling with daily essentials, I wouldn't trade any of it for precious metals because who knows when the next time is that I'll be able to replace it? I'd likely trade some items for other tangible goods, but not precious metals.

I am diversified in that I have precious metals as well as cash on hand, but most of my focus is on tangible goods.

On a final note, if the time comes when you can't use you ATM/Visa card or green money to buy groceries, S will HTF instantly. The majority of the population will be in full on panic mode & things will decline rapidly. This I'm sure of.

Ga Shooter
07-17-11, 17:18
My personal theory on the gold/silver collecting seems to be different than the rest of you. I do not (like most of you) think people on a wide scale will accept green/gold/silver etc for tanginble goods during a major SHTF scenario unless they have a wharehouse full of it. But my thoughts are when a government forms (and one will eventually will) that the old worthless dollar will be good for nothing but all currency can be bought with silver or gold. So if you have played it smart and stored some silver and gold you can sell it for the new currency when things get back to normal and maybe have a life again without having to start from scratch.IMO.

SOW_0331
07-17-11, 17:20
My thinking goes a little further down the road of a SHTF situation. IMO, tangible goods will value the highest. Everybody is going to need necessities like food, water, weapons, etc...

I think before I stock up on gold bars, that may or may not mean anything when money (dollar or otherwise) is nothing more than a collectible, I will ensure that I have soe tangible skills to carry over.

If we lose our structure, people will still need to get things done. As we rebuild, skills will be in order.

Clarkm I don't plan on running away to somewhere when the going gets rough, that's not what America is about. I would argue that someone being able to fix a generator or water pump is more valuable than some gold bars, if there are no banks.

QuietShootr
07-17-11, 18:19
I think before I stock up on gold bars, that may or may not mean anything when money (dollar or otherwise) is nothing more than a collectible, I will ensure that I have soe tangible skills to carry over.

If we lose our structure, people will still need to get things done. As we rebuild, skills will be in order.

Clarkm I don't plan on running away to somewhere when the going gets rough, that's not what America is about. I would argue that someone being able to fix a generator or water pump is more valuable than some gold bars, if there are no banks.

One thing that will always be worth something, anywhere in the world, is ammunition. And weapons. I'm not going anywhere, and I bet some folks would happily trade me half a cow for a hundred rounds of GI 5.56 if that was all that stood between their family and the looters. Though I'd probably drive a harder bargain than that, because I have the ammo and the cow:D

Clarkm
07-17-11, 18:32
If you look at the history of the earth over the last 100 years, the big killers were:
1) Disease, over 100 million
2) Political and ethnic cleansing, about 100 million
3) Wars, less than 100 million.

Society breaking down and all men being robbers and all women being whores has happened in Africa and Bosnia, but the number of deaths are small.

Which gets me back to a my theory, threads about needing a rifle for social work are not based on reality, but on fantasy. If it were real, I would see calculations of probability.

Some fantasies are having sex with a famous movie star.
Some fantasies are finding a suit case full of money.
Some fantasies are needing a rifle to stay alive.

I think you stand a better chance of screwing Linsey Lohan, your chances for the other two don't look as likely.

QuietShootr
07-17-11, 18:34
That is some disturbing info right there. I knew about the gang infiltration into the military, but it appears now that there are multiple factions with considerable differences all ready to make war if things were to kick off.

Sorry for being dense, what do you mean by Good Ole' Boy Union types?

Blue-collar democrats. Out in the hinterlands, they are hicks with union jobs that pay WAY more than they should. You can find lots of them around Kokomo, IN, Akron, OH, and places like that. They may be chicken-raising hillbillies, but they will fight for their (stolen) piece of the pie, and a lot of them have a lot of guns.

Here's one in the wild:
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/local/politics/mikeday.jpg

QuietShootr
07-17-11, 18:35
If you look at the history of the earth over the last 100 years, the big killers were:
1) Disease, over 100 million
2) Political and ethnic cleansing, about 100 million
3) Wars, less than 100 million.

Society breaking down and all men being robbers and all women being whores has happened in Africa and Bosnia, but the number of deaths are small.

Which gets me back to a my theory, threads about needing a rifle for social work are not based on reality, but on fantasy. If it were real, I would see calculations of probability.

Some fantasies are having sex with a famous movie star.
Some fantasies are finding a suit case full of money.
Some fantasies are needing a rifle to stay alive.

I think you stand a better chance of screwing Linsey Lohan, your chances for the other two don't look as likely.

:rolleyes:

Time will tell.

MIKE G
07-17-11, 19:01
If you look at the history of the earth over the last 100 years, the big killers were:
1) Disease, over 100 million
2) Political and ethnic cleansing, about 100 million
3) Wars, less than 100 million.

Society breaking down and all men being robbers and all women being whores has happened in Africa and Bosnia, but the number of deaths are small.

Which gets me back to a my theory, threads about needing a rifle for social work are not based on reality, but on fantasy. If it were real, I would see calculations of probability.

Some fantasies are having sex with a famous movie star.
Some fantasies are finding a suit case full of money.
Some fantasies are needing a rifle to stay alive.

I think you stand a better chance of screwing Linsey Lohan, your chances for the other two don't look as likely.

You ever been to a third world country? Outside of the tourist areas? You mention having a passport and infer the knowledge to use it but I wonder what your experience is with people that live in desperate situations everyday.

Violence no matter the weapon is common when stomachs are empty and times are tough. Even when the people exposed to these events know nothing else. When someone is starving a good meal can easily take on a higher value than the life of a stranger. The sense of security can quickly take on the greater value than the life of even someone known to you.

I am curious what experience you are deriving your information from or if it is simple speculation based on something you read. I have worked on 3 continents and with people from 6 continents and have derived a pretty bleak view of what the world could look like in a post SHTF event.

QuietShootr
07-17-11, 19:22
You ever been to a third world country? Outside of the tourist areas? You mention having a passport and infer the knowledge to use it but I wonder what your experience is with people that live in desperate situations everyday.

Violence no matter the weapon is common when stomachs are empty and times are tough. Even when the people exposed to these events know nothing else. When someone is starving a good meal can easily take on a higher value than the life of a stranger. The sense of security can quickly take on the greater value than the life of even someone known to you.

I am curious what experience you are deriving your information from or if it is simple speculation based on something you read. I have worked on 3 continents and with people from 6 continents and have derived a pretty bleak view of what the world could look like in a post SHTF event.

This.

If we are shooting people here in the Good Ol', they'll be roasting long pig over open coals in LATAM and the Caribbean. Where the hell are you going to go that's out of reach of that kind of behavior? Iceland comes to mind, it's a pretty nice peaceful place, but getting there might present a bit of a problem unless you own your own bizjet that has a range >3000nm. If you do have a G-400, G-V, or Dassault Falcon laying around, then I guess you're good to go. Thing is, for the 20 million it would cost to buy one I could build a place that would need an infantry battalion with rotary-wing support to breach.

Silly. Keep your papers up to date, and keep some euros and Swiss francs around, but don't be an idiot. Unless you can really afford some serious shit away from home, you're going to be a lot worse off outside CONUS than you would be in it. And if you're late getting off the X, you might not get to leave at all - and if your whole plan is based around being in Costa Rica or Ouagadougou when the shit becomes unbearable around here, as they say in Ebonics: You be ****ed.

4x4twenty6
07-17-11, 19:35
Clarkm: I am having a hard time believing you have any experience to support your position besides what you have read In books or maybe seen on tv.

I don't have Mikeg's vast experience on other continents. My experience is with the animals that live in this country. I am from new Orleans, remember that little storm Katrina and how people behaved, imagine that on a national scale.
That's what it will look like if the financial system crashes or even ifWelfare receipients stop receiving checks.

I will absolutely cling to my guns when the SHTF. Cuz I will protect myself by any and all means. Survival Of the fittest.

Let's not be naive here. By your comments, you will not be the fittest.

SOW_0331
07-17-11, 19:40
If you look at the history of the earth over the last 100 years, the big killers were:
1) Disease, over 100 million
2) Political and ethnic cleansing, about 100 million
3) Wars, less than 100 million.

Society breaking down and all men being robbers and all women being whores has happened in Africa and Bosnia, but the number of deaths are small.

Which gets me back to a my theory, threads about needing a rifle for social work are not based on reality, but on fantasy. If it were real, I would see calculations of probability.

Some fantasies are having sex with a famous movie star.
Some fantasies are finding a suit case full of money.
Some fantasies are needing a rifle to stay alive.

I think you stand a better chance of screwing Linsey Lohan, your chances for the other two don't look as likely.

Not to dog pile, because others already said a lot, but you are taking a very strange (dare I say, leftist?) approach to a societal breakdown. I'm sorry, if your plan involves how much money/worth you have, and being able to jump ship if it gets rough, you will be in for a very rude awakening when neither of those are available.

I don't think anyone here has said the only thing they need is guns and ammo. Nevertheless it seems members here are accepting that being able to defend yourself against anything is one of the most important staples. The difference between me, and the next guy with food, water, shelter, food, and a plan, is that if he has refused to pick up a weapon, he will find himself scrambling for a way to defend himself when desperation takes over and people are willing to kill for his goods.

You gave three examples, with disease at the top. I don't see the bottom two being separate. If someone were to attempt ethnic cleansing or genocide in the US, would I not want a rifle to fight back? When that sort of thing goes unchallenged by the victims, millions can die. It has happened, yes? Also, are your stats referring to a declared conventional war? Because I have a VERY hard time believing that over the last hundred years, less than 100 million people have been killed in rioting, civil unrest, govt declared genocides, long drawn out drug wars (CENTAM), and of course, international conflicts (Vietnam for instance). Your facts seem very flawed, since in every single one of those above cases I mentioned, I feel I would fare better with a rifle and ammo than without.

But enjoy living in your fantasy that you will be able to escape before the savages are at each others throats. I hope you are right, I tell my wife that all the time. She thinks a little like you, and I tell her everyday "if I die old and fat with a stockpile of survival equipment, I'll know that I lived and was ready, and I would rather use my dying breath to tell you I was wrong than to watch you and (my daughter) taken from me because I didn't prepare"

a1fabweld
07-17-11, 20:05
If you look at the history of the earth over the last 100 years, the big killers were:
1) Disease, over 100 million
2) Political and ethnic cleansing, about 100 million
3) Wars, less than 100 million.

Society breaking down and all men being robbers and all women being whores has happened in Africa and Bosnia, but the number of deaths are small.

Which gets me back to a my theory, threads about needing a rifle for social work are not based on reality, but on fantasy. If it were real, I would see calculations of probability.

Some fantasies are having sex with a famous movie star.
Some fantasies are finding a suit case full of money.
Some fantasies are needing a rifle to stay alive.

I think you stand a better chance of screwing Linsey Lohan, your chances for the other two don't look as likely.

Some fantasies are thinking your passport will stop bullets.
Some fantasies are using gold coins as a barrier between your throat and the guys knife who is trying to slash it.
Some fantasies are using your history statistics to reason with a guy who's kicked your door in & about to rape your wife while you & your kids are tied up watching.

misanthropist
07-17-11, 20:40
Some fantasies are thinking your passport will stop bullets.
Some fantasies are using gold coins as a barrier between your throat and the guys knife who is trying to slash it.
Some fantasies are using your history statistics to reason with a guy who's kicked your door in & about to rape your wife while you & your kids are tied up watching.

All true...however I think the point being made here is that those situations are less probable than more mundane, equally life-threatening problems.

Consider Haiti at the moment. That is a place where the shit hit the fan HARD pretty recently, and a place which didn't have much going for it in the first place. I think things would have to slide really, really, absurdly far for the US to be worse than Haiti is right now.

What's killing more Haitians at the moment, do you figure? Murderous psychopaths or dehydration from diarrhea?

What would be better to have in Haiti right now?
A tier 1 AR, fifty thousand rounds of ammo and two years' worth of food, or a large amount of liquid assets in foreign countries and passports for you and your family?

I love guns...but I would WAY rather look around and say, "hey, this place is going to the dogs. Screw it, we're all moving to New Zealand" than "pass me another P-mag, son, the starving mobs are looking violent again"


It's deeply unpopular to take Clarkm's position on survival-oriented forums, but the point he is making is very good, in my opinion. America is not the only first-world country. It may not be that America's collapse will automatically mean that the entire rest of the western world rages into anarchy. In fact, I would tend to guess that some other countries would survive just fine.

If that happens, I would WAY rather have the ability to move my wife and children somewhere that is still a first world country than stay and fight it out with a bunch of thugs.

And the people that get to emigrate to other, nicer places aren't the people who can list the most guns on their application...they're the people who have money and connections.

Logicalpath
07-17-11, 21:04
My thinking goes a little further down the road of a SHTF situation. IMO, tangible goods will value the highest. Everybody is going to need necessities like food, water, weapons, etc...

I often think about a situation where we're acquiring supplies or trading. The dollar has no value other than toilet paper. If the infrastructure slows or stops, & you end up bartering for goods, the likelyhood of finding someone with such a huge abundence of resources where they could do without some in trade for gold/silver coins is slim. I know if I had a heaping 3 car garage full to the ceiling with daily essentials, I wouldn't trade any of it for precious metals because who knows when the next time is that I'll be able to replace it? I'd likely trade some items for other tangible goods, but not precious metals.

I am diversified in that I have precious metals as well as cash on hand, but most of my focus is on tangible goods.

On a final note, if the time comes when you can't use you ATM/Visa card or green money to buy groceries, S will HTF instantly. The majority of the population will be in full on panic mode & things will decline rapidly. This I'm sure of.

I agree 100%, only that what you're describing would be the early to middle stages of a collapse. Primitive societies/Primitive Barter Societies will have individuals that will trade water for ammunition, however there are challenges as an economy/society begins to evolve. When the guy with the hat wants water but the guy with water doesn't need a hat. He now has to find a way to trade the hat for something that will interest the owner of the water. This is the point where money is introduced and it is at this point where the society can begin to emerge & expand. So when you say "a little further down the road" and when you compare paper money(fiat currency) to precious metals regardless of the stage of the collapse/emergency I plainly have to disagree. Paper money does not have intrinsic value, precious metals do and that is regardless of the circumstances.


My personal theory on the gold/silver collecting seems to be different than the rest of you. I do not (like most of you) think people on a wide scale will accept green/gold/silver etc for tanginble goods during a major SHTF scenario unless they have a wharehouse full of it. But my thoughts are when a government forms (and one will eventually will) that the old worthless dollar will be good for nothing but all currency can be bought with silver or gold. So if you have played it smart and stored some silver and gold you can sell it for the new currency when things get back to normal and maybe have a life again without having to start from scratch.IMO.

Again, this depends on the situation because in a barter community you are not guaranteed that you will have the "tangible good" needed to obtain what you need. As these challenges begin to affect several "traders" within the society they begin to organically find a medium of exchange that is widely recognized as money. That has been the history of money for a period of 6000 years. The distortion we live in now with Fiat Currency is just that...a distortion. Gold & silver have almost always been the choice to solve this problem. That said, there is almost always a period of primitive barter, however in this case I think most people already have a head start and we would transition through that period much faster.


I think before I stock up on gold bars, that may or may not mean anything when money (dollar or otherwise) is nothing more than a collectible, I will ensure that I have soe tangible skills to carry over.

If we lose our structure, people will still need to get things done. As we rebuild, skills will be in order.

Clarkm I don't plan on running away to somewhere when the going gets rough, that's not what America is about. I would argue that someone being able to fix a generator or water pump is more valuable than some gold bars, if there are no banks.

The precious metals will DEFINITELY mean something, history has proven this. In terms of survival I think it's very similar to an investment portfolio. You need to make sure you have the essentials but you need to be diversified. I'm not saying precious metals should supersede water, food, weapons but I am saying it needs to be part of that portfolio.

I could go on but I don't want to hijack this thread. I'll finish off by saying that preparing for a disaster is just the beginning, you have to also prepare yourself for the fact that eventually we'll work ourselves out of the "primitive stages" and having an understanding of how money came into existence & what REAL money is, IMO is vital.

Smashing Myths & Restoring Sound Money (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAzExlEsIKk&feature=player_embedded) is a good lecture(Austrian Economics) on what I'm explaining. If you're interested I have a few books that go into the history of money that are great resources.

Lecture on Gold/Precious Metals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ll4HS1QW9M&feature=related)

a1fabweld
07-17-11, 21:05
All true...however I think the point being made here is that those situations are less probable than more mundane, equally life-threatening problems.

Consider Haiti at the moment. That is a place where the shit hit the fan HARD pretty recently, and a place which didn't have much going for it in the first place. I think things would have to slide really, really, absurdly far for the US to be worse than Haiti is right now.

What's killing more Haitians at the moment, do you figure? Murderous psychopaths or dehydration from diarrhea?

What would be better to have in Haiti right now?
A tier 1 AR, fifty thousand rounds of ammo and two years' worth of food, or a large amount of liquid assets in foreign countries and passports for you and your family?

I love guns...but I would WAY rather look around and say, "hey, this place is going to the dogs. Screw it, we're all moving to New Zealand" than "pass me another P-mag, son, the starving mobs are looking violent again"


It's deeply unpopular to take Clarkm's position on survival-oriented forums, but the point he is making is very good, in my opinion. America is not the only first-world country. It may not be that America's collapse will automatically mean that the entire rest of the western world rages into anarchy. In fact, I would tend to guess that some other countries would survive just fine.

If that happens, I would WAY rather have the ability to move my wife and children somewhere that is still a first world country than stay and fight it out with a bunch of thugs.

And the people that get to emigrate to other, nicer places aren't the people who can list the most guns on their application...they're the people who have money and connections.

If you have the financial resources to up & move to New Zealand at the drop of a dime, good for you. Not many people can do that. If you take a look back to the MKL riots & Rodney King riots, you'll see people behaving worse than rabid dogs. Folks feel they are entitled more nowdays than ever before. They are also more aggressive. Now stop their welfare checks, sit back, & watch the fireworks. Take guys who can't feed their families. Desperation makes people do horrible things. Having an educated discussion in the heat of the moment isn't going to work.

In the end, we all prep the way we feel is best for our families wellbeing. Some guys think they need a tank, some guys think all they need is at Starbucks. Only time will tell what works.

Logicalpath
07-17-11, 21:08
Blue-collar democrats. Out in the hinterlands, they are hicks with union jobs that pay WAY more than they should. You can find lots of them around Kokomo, IN, Akron, OH, and places like that. They may be chicken-raising hillbillies, but they will fight for their (stolen) piece of the pie, and a lot of them have a lot of guns.

Here's one in the wild:
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/local/politics/mikeday.jpg

This is great, I've got to share that picture but I'll give credit!

Thx.

MIKE G
07-17-11, 21:12
All true...however I think the point being made here is that those situations are less probable than more mundane, equally life-threatening problems.

Consider Haiti at the moment. That is a place where the shit hit the fan HARD pretty recently, and a place which didn't have much going for it in the first place. I think things would have to slide really, really, absurdly far for the US to be worse than Haiti is right now.

What's killing more Haitians at the moment, do you figure? Murderous psychopaths or dehydration from diarrhea?

What would be better to have in Haiti right now?
A tier 1 AR, fifty thousand rounds of ammo and two years' worth of food, or a large amount of liquid assets in foreign countries and passports for you and your family?

I love guns...but I would WAY rather look around and say, "hey, this place is going to the dogs. Screw it, we're all moving to New Zealand" than "pass me another P-mag, son, the starving mobs are looking violent again"


It's deeply unpopular to take Clarkm's position on survival-oriented forums, but the point he is making is very good, in my opinion. America is not the only first-world country. It may not be that America's collapse will automatically mean that the entire rest of the western world rages into anarchy. In fact, I would tend to guess that some other countries would survive just fine.

If that happens, I would WAY rather have the ability to move my wife and children somewhere that is still a first world country than stay and fight it out with a bunch of thugs.

And the people that get to emigrate to other, nicer places aren't the people who can list the most guns on their application...they're the people who have money and connections.

And everyone else's point, or at least mine, is that by the time things are bad enough in the US that I would seriously consider walking away from my life here things everywhere else have probably deteriorated in equal proportion to the situation in the US.

What do you do when there is no destination to run too? My point is don't put all your eggs in one basket. Having a singular plan to run away to another country is fine if you can get out but does nothing for you if that country is crippled under a world wide outbreak of disease. Name a country that is hospitable to Americans that has a secure enough border to keep out people that are sick effectively? There isn't one. Even if there was do you think they are going to risk letting foreigners in that could be sick?

Is my gun my only plan? No. I have a bug in plan, bug out regional, domestic, and OCONUS plan. Some range from high dollar investment to nothing more than good will and the history of friendship with contacts around the globe. Do you have an established address in any foreign country? Do you know any .gov officials at any level in foreign countries?

Survival is not about the strongest or fittest it is about who can adapt the best to change. Do you have a marketable skill in an environment that has been set back 150-200 years? Moderate to high level medical knowledge, security knowledge, farming knowledge, hunting knowledge, pioneer level construction knowledge, blacksmith knowledge, etc. Can you survive when plan A-Z no longer have a context?

At some point you just can't plan any more but you have to have a mindset that has the capability of on the spot strategizing successfully.

Personally I have put myself into a position where everyday life consists of adding experience to the survival toolbox. Internally I AAR many different events daily both in my life and the world around me developing and evaluating solutions. Think of it as PT for the brain.

Sorry to derail this thread but it just amazes me how naive some people are.

misanthropist
07-17-11, 22:39
And everyone else's point, or at least mine, is that by the time things are bad enough in the US that I would seriously consider walking away from my life here things everywhere else have probably deteriorated in equal proportion to the situation in the US.

What do you do when there is no destination to run too? My point is don't put all your eggs in one basket. Having a singular plan to run away to another country is fine if you can get out but does nothing for you if that country is crippled under a world wide outbreak of disease. Name a country that is hospitable to Americans that has a secure enough border to keep out people that are sick effectively? There isn't one. Even if there was do you think they are going to risk letting foreigners in that could be sick?

Is my gun my only plan? No. I have a bug in plan, bug out regional, domestic, and OCONUS plan. Some range from high dollar investment to nothing more than good will and the history of friendship with contacts around the globe. Do you have an established address in any foreign country? Do you know any .gov officials at any level in foreign countries?

Survival is not about the strongest or fittest it is about who can adapt the best to change. Do you have a marketable skill in an environment that has been set back 150-200 years? Moderate to high level medical knowledge, security knowledge, farming knowledge, hunting knowledge, pioneer level construction knowledge, blacksmith knowledge, etc. Can you survive when plan A-Z no longer have a context?

At some point you just can't plan any more but you have to have a mindset that has the capability of on the spot strategizing successfully.

Personally I have put myself into a position where everyday life consists of adding experience to the survival toolbox. Internally I AAR many different events daily both in my life and the world around me developing and evaluating solutions. Think of it as PT for the brain.

Sorry to derail this thread but it just amazes me how naive some people are.

While the bolded section is possible, it is not necessarily so. For example, the great depression hit the US much, much harder than it did Canada.

Even currently, Americans are facing potentially serious long-term economic unrest, and lots of people in this thread seem to feel that it may only be a few years before things are really intolerable.

It happens, though, that the economy up here in Canada is doing very well, and has been trending upwards for two years. We've already exceeded the levels we were at before the big shakedown a couple of years ago and growth is continuing strongly. We are pretty comfortable and things here are getting better, not worse. I don't say this because I want to rub it in, but simply to point out that there is the definite potential for large-scale, but local, unrest, and that historically that's the rule, not the exception.

Are there scenarios that would involve the collapse of the whole world at once? Yes. Are they the most probable scenarios? I would say not.

It struck me, while reading this thread, that it seems like the pressing concern for most of the posters in general economic collapse. If America's economy really does collapse, it will hurt the whole world, of course. But other places will rebound faster, simply because they will only lose a share of their markets, however large (in Canada's case, it will really hurt as the US is our primary market for most resources).

The fact is that I DON'T have enough money to pull stakes and move my family to NZ. But that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be worthwhile, or that in some ways, simply generating and retaining personal wealth is a very smart approach to surviving scenarios likely to result in mass civil disobedience.

Ga Shooter
07-17-11, 22:46
I agree 100%, only that what you're describing would be the early to middle stages of a collapse. Primitive societies/Primitive Barter Societies will have individuals that will trade water for ammunition, however there are challenges as an economy/society begins to evolve. When the guy with the hat wants water but the guy with water doesn't need a hat. He now has to find a way to trade the hat for something that will interest the owner of the water. This is the point where money is introduced and it is at this point where the society can begin to emerge & expand. So when you say "a little further down the road" and when you compare paper money(fiat currency) to precious metals regardless of the stage of the collapse/emergency I plainly have to disagree. Paper money does not have intrinsic value, precious metals do and that is regardless of the circumstances.



Again, this depends on the situation because in a barter community you are not guaranteed that you will have the "tangible good" needed to obtain what you need. As these challenges begin to affect several "traders" within the society they begin to organically find a medium of exchange that is widely recognized as money. That has been the history of money for a period of 6000 years. The distortion we live in now with Fiat Currency is just that...a distortion. Gold & silver have almost always been the choice to solve this problem. That said, there is almost always a period of primitive barter, however in this case I think most people already have a head start and we would transition through that period much faster.



The precious metals will DEFINITELY mean something, history has proven this. In terms of survival I think it's very similar to an investment portfolio. You need to make sure you have the essentials but you need to be diversified. I'm not saying precious metals should supersede water, food, weapons but I am saying it needs to be part of that portfolio.

I could go on but I don't want to hijack this thread. I'll finish off by saying that preparing for a disaster is just the beginning, you have to also prepare yourself for the fact that eventually we'll work ourselves out of the "primitive stages" and having an understanding of how money came into existence & what REAL money is, IMO is vital.

Smashing Myths & Restoring Sound Money (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAzExlEsIKk&feature=player_embedded) is a good lecture(Austrian Economics) on what I'm explaining. If you're interested I have a few books that go into the history of money that are great resources.

Very well written. That is the exact point that I was trying to make. When money is reintroduced 1 oz of precious metal will be worth x number of dollars. If you have the shiny stuff you can get the new green stuff.

a1fabweld
07-17-11, 22:51
For a large number of the population, surviving long enough to the point where there is a new currency will be available isn't going to happen.

MIKE G
07-17-11, 23:01
And what happens when Americans become the new illegal immigrant crossing into your border draining you of resources, jobs, etc out of desperation because that is what you are suggesting.

If 1% of Americans went to Canada (it is geographically convenient) that is 3 million people functionally squatting in your country. You think that won't have any consequences? Do you think the Canadian gov is just going to welcome everyone with open arms knowing they likely won't return to the US anytime soon?

Even in Katrina people left for nearby states. There was an immediate increase in crime across the spectrum in those receiving areas, both violent and non-violent. Many of those people still haven't returned to Louisiana.

So getting back to mass civil disobedience. Are you ready for well armed Americans to come knocking on you door? Or are you just going to bail and run somewhere else leaving your country to the invading hordes following your suggestion? Don't make the mistake of believing that only the good guys have guns.

Our northern border is just as porous as the southern one.

DemonRat
07-17-11, 23:04
I am in a small city less than 5000 people in it. The closet city to me has 10,000 people. Thankfully I don't live in major Metro area where these kind of things happen. Am I prepared for it in my town? Hell no. But I do have several connections in my area that I can hide with and share ammo if need be. Plus there's a lot of forest between me and my designated meeting point so if I had to I can hoof it there in 20 minutes or ride the quad there with trailer ,gear, and food loaded in 45 minutes. I just hope I never see the day where I am sitting on a roof taking out people that step on property so me and mine can live.

misanthropist
07-17-11, 23:22
And what happens when Americans become the new illegal immigrant crossing into your border draining you of resources, jobs, etc out of desperation because that is what you are suggesting.

If 1% of Americans went to Canada (it is geographically convenient) that is 3 million people functionally squatting in your country. You think that won't have any consequences? Do you think the Canadian gov is just going to welcome everyone with open arms knowing they likely won't return to the US anytime soon?

Even in Katrina people left for nearby states. There was an immediate increase in crime across the spectrum in those receiving areas, both violent and non-violent. Many of those people still haven't returned to Louisiana.

So getting back to mass civil disobedience. Are you ready for well armed Americans to come knocking on you door? Or are you just going to bail and run somewhere else leaving your country to the invading hordes following your suggestion? Don't make the mistake of believing that only the good guys have guns.

Our northern border is just as porous as the southern one.

I am not arguing that being in Canada is a solution...I am arguing that mobility is a good defense against massive, long-term civil unrest.

MIKE G
07-17-11, 23:28
And my point is that planning to run from trouble is not a viable plan because eventually you run out of places to run or you find trouble along the way. Diversify your plan.

Be able to move and fight and communicate and adapt and think and plan...

misanthropist
07-17-11, 23:32
And my point is that planning to run from trouble is not a viable plan because eventually you run out of places to run or you find trouble along the way. Diversify your plan.

Be able to move and fight and communicate and adapt and think and plan...
I would tend to say that this really only shows that if leaving is your ONLY plan, then you may have a problem.

I think this would be true of any plan...if you've only got one plan, you will eventually run into situations in which it does not help.

But planning to run from trouble is, in itself, totally viable in many situations.

MIKE G
07-17-11, 23:41
All true...however I think the point being made here is that those situations are less probable than more mundane, equally life-threatening problems.

Consider Haiti at the moment. That is a place where the shit hit the fan HARD pretty recently, and a place which didn't have much going for it in the first place. I think things would have to slide really, really, absurdly far for the US to be worse than Haiti is right now.

What's killing more Haitians at the moment, do you figure? Murderous psychopaths or dehydration from diarrhea?

What would be better to have in Haiti right now?
A tier 1 AR, fifty thousand rounds of ammo and two years' worth of food, or a large amount of liquid assets in foreign countries and passports for you and your family?

I love guns...but I would WAY rather look around and say, "hey, this place is going to the dogs. Screw it, we're all moving to New Zealand" than "pass me another P-mag, son, the starving mobs are looking violent again"


It's deeply unpopular to take Clarkm's position on survival-oriented forums, but the point he is making is very good, in my opinion. America is not the only first-world country. It may not be that America's collapse will automatically mean that the entire rest of the western world rages into anarchy. In fact, I would tend to guess that some other countries would survive just fine.

If that happens, I would WAY rather have the ability to move my wife and children somewhere that is still a first world country than stay and fight it out with a bunch of thugs.

And the people that get to emigrate to other, nicer places aren't the people who can list the most guns on their application...they're the people who have money and connections.

Your post here says either beans and bullets OR passport and money. My point is to have both. Your argument isn't very clear.

This also doesn't take into account that many Americans would likely have issue with abandoning their country. That is however an individual choice.

yasnevo
07-17-11, 23:46
"I am not arguing that being in Canada is a solution...I am arguing that mobility is a good defense against massive, long-term civil unrest. "

Right after Hurricane Katrina ravaged the gulf coast, Hurricane Rita was approaching Houston. People hauled ass... or, tried to do so. It was Lord of the Flies on the highways... grid lock and peoples mobility plans went to crap in a hurry...