View Full Version : Bringing an RRA AR up to spec.
I know how poeple feel about RRA on this site so I won't dwell on this. Other than replacing the BCG (or getting the key staked properly), getting the castle nut staked properly, changing out the buffer, what else would be needed and worthwhile?? Is the barrel no good?? What about the LPK?? The reason I ask is because I am wondering if it would be cheaper to upgrade or is the rifle not worth dealing with because it really is ALL bad???
Bolt, barrel, Reciever extension.
The dremeled feed ramps into the uppers and barrel extensions are a deal breaker for me. Proprietary Bubba-Gun crap.:fie:
I would sell the upper and get a BCM.
I would also replace their loc-tite'ed receiver extension/buffer tube for a LMT Milspec diameter tube and a properly staked castle nut.
I would suggest getting a BCM but keep the RRA as a loaner/beater/plinker rifle that you not cry about getting the crap beat out of it. If you need the money to upgrade then unload it. I have a few RRA's but they are not a go to gun. They are a give to gun.
Thank you for the replies. One of you suggested a fairly involved overhaul, which due to me not trusting my mechanical abilities, will not happen. However, the "ditch the RRA upper and get a BCM" route sounds good, especially if it is a midlength. This is why I come on this site, plenty to learn about! Thanks again.
The dremeled feed ramps into the uppers and barrel extensions are a deal breaker for me. Proprietary Bubba-Gun crap.:fie:
I would sell the upper and get a BCM.
I would also replace their loc-tite'ed receiver extension/buffer tube for a LMT Milspec diameter tube and a properly staked castle nut.
Hmmmm, who would buy my upper?? Is there a market for unwanted lower tier stuff? Just asking is all.
Hmmmm, who would buy my upper?? Is there a market for unwanted lower tier stuff? Just asking is all.
People buy crap all the time. It won't move well here but TOS will gobble it up.
You could try posting it on the EE here.
I'd take it to a gun show, those things are full of idiots who don't know any better. Last year I sold a Maverick 88 within minutes of walking in the door, then a BM upper within an hour or so.
Ok, I will try to sell it as is and see what happens. Anyone feel gulity of selling knowing what you "know"???:D;) Just kidding. About the RRA lower, anything to watch out for?? A different LPK maybe?? Thank you for the replies.
I think there is a sticky for the
"Oh no I bought an x...."
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
There it is.
Long and short of it: Buy a good upper. You can find various on sale and BCM is a good start. There are always deals around, and while BCM isn't the end-all be all (About to get hit by lightening--just saying there are other decent uppers out there) it is a greatsuggestion. If you hit the search button you'll find the preferred vendors of good uppers (of which BCM is one).
RRA lower should be fine. There is a bit of equipment snobbery, but those I trust around here well tell you it'll get the job done. More important is to know what about the RRA was a problem (all suggestions involve upper receiver parts from the sticky except a new buffer, and that most of the time comes with a new upper!)
If you don't want to change to stock, the receiver extension is a moot point, but it is really easy if you want. Get a pliers, screw driver, and hammer.
Sell your upper. or keep it as a reminder to research before you purchase. I keep mine around to remind me what a post ban feels like everytime i get frustrated with politicans and ready to give up.
Buy a BCM.
Keep the RRA as a training beater.
justin_247
03-03-11, 07:06
The following, as you said:
- properly stake the carrier key and castle nut
- swap out the carbine buffer for an H buffer
- install a BCM bolt upgrade kit
From reading various posts on this site, using anti-tilt followers in your magazines will probably adequately compensate for it having rifle feed ramps instead of M-4 ramps.
There are also various posts about how lousy of LPKs made by RRA. A much better, mil-spec, LPK can be obtained from G&R Tactical.
If you truly want to bring it up to speak, swap out the LPK, install a full-auto BCG from BCM, LMT, DD, or Colt, swap out the buffer tube for a mil-spec, 7075 tube, install an H buffer, and swap out the upper receiver for one from BCM, LMT, DD, Noveske, or Colt. Basically, swap out everything except for the stripped lower receiver.
Honestly, the best option is to do those first three basic upgrades and then just shoot it. You can swap out parts as they fail or as your requirements change.
Honestly, the best option is to do those first three basic upgrades and then just shoot it. You can swap out parts as they fail or as your requirements change.
Here you go. If it's reliable just shoot the damn thing and stop worrying about it. Like Justin said replace parts when they break or near their replacement interval.
SuperiorDG
03-03-11, 07:42
Paint it and buy a BCM
7620
7621
Well for what it's worth I have a little different view than some about RRA. They are ok rifles in stock form. They do cut corners, but that does not equal a non functioning weapon. If the chart bothers you, then upgrade to a BCM BCG, stake the castle nut, install a H buffer and then fire the hell out of it. Most of RRA flaws revolve around a not up to spec BCG, so you can do alot of good for the rifle, and for your piece of mind to change that out immediately. Again, this is my opinion and while I'm at it here is another. For what 97% of civilian RRA owners use their rifles for you will most likely never expierience a problem relating to thier out of spec parts. If you plan on running the rifle really hard then you may want to upgrade to quality parts, or a higher quality rifle. Untill then keep it clean, keep it wet, and shoot the helll out of it.
To me a RRA is worse than a Bushmaster:
1) Incorrect barrel steel
2) Chrome lining not standard
3) No HP
4) No MP
5) Incorrect Receiver Extension
6) Lock-tighted castle nut (so it's a PITA to even change to a correct receiver extension)
7) Non-staked Carrier Key
8) SA Carrier
9) 1:9 twist Barrel
10) Fake, dremeled "M4" extensions.
on, and on...
At least you can mostly fix a Bushie with a hammer and a punch.
If it were me, I'd sell it and start over. Way less hassle and cost. What kills me is a guy came up to the counter Tuesday night with a huge grin on his face, hands me a RRA Middie, and says, "I'd like to buy this please." In my mind I'm thinking, "If you only knew", but he wasn't interested in anything else. He had "done his research" and wanted a RRA 'cause "that's what the DEA uses!":suicide:
All,
Ok, I hear all of your ideas and they are all good. Some of them will work for me, others not. I think I am going to pursue selling the upper, and maybe a new LPK. BCM or DD upper, BCM or DD BCG, maybe a new reciever extention. However, I will admit this is sounding more and more like "this rifle is ALL bad and is not worth it."
I will do some shopping around and look at some hard numbers. All in all, I won't get what I paid for the rifle if I sell.......famous last words. There will always be a price to pay for lack of knowledge. Thankfully, the price will be money and not my life. Thank you for all of the ideas.
Have you established a shortcoming with the gun?
Stake
Extractor
*Ream
*Buffer
R&B are optional depending on use, failure rate, etc. You need to stake the carrier key (you can probably skip the castle nut as they like to glue it on), and you may need to ream the chamber and/or go to an H buffer.
The barrel steel won't matter for a long time, neither will the receiver extension. Go shoot the hell out of it and see what breaks.
I'm with Rob S on this, fix the known problems and shoot it till it breaks. You could get thousands of more rounds through that rifle, with proper maintainance of course. I completley agree BCM and DD are great rifles, and if you want to buy one then you can buy with confidence. How many rounds have you fired through the RRA? Have you had any problems yet?
The RRA has maybe 3-400 through it right now. To upgrade to what I want and to "spec" after looking at BCM for parts, I would probably spend close to $900 to complete the rifle. I can get an entire BCM midlength with eveything I want for $1500 from G&R tactical (in my home state) and move on from there. Maybe a sell for cash toward a BCM complete rifle would be best. I am going to ponder this a bit. I have time, SHTF or training classes/competition are years away!
Thanks to all for your replies.
No, no problems with the rifle, have not shot steel cased through it or run it hard though. Maybe I should run it til it breaks and then fix it. Seems like if I do that though, a door will be opened.......if you all know what I mean. When will the upgrades be good enough?? Maybe just go with a new rifle and cut my losses.
IShootBlanks
03-03-11, 22:25
just a newbies opinion.. but the it all should depend on your intended use... if its your goto home defense firearm then you should consider upgrading to a bcm or similar.
if this is a rifle for mainly target and some fun or the occasional coyote then i think your not going to really notice a difference and are not at much of a loss...
if you can recover your money by selling go for it.. if not consider it your learner beater experiment... thats what my delton kit gun is for..
the bcm i have faith in
All,
I have decided to try to sell the upper at a gun show tomorrow here in CMH. RRAs website shows $520 for a new unfired complete upper. Mine has 3-400 rounds through it and has not been run hard or had steel case through it (not that that would matter if its cleaned). I am going to start at $350 and see what happens.
KrampusArms
03-06-11, 13:10
I think RRA makes a decent rifle. Up to spec? No. I have a 16 inch RRA CAR upper riding on a CMMG lower. I have fired steel cased ammo through it and it has functioned %100. IMHO I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. I, as a civilian, trust my RRA for home defensive duties. How many rounds are realistically going to be fired in such a scenario? Two-three? I feel comfortable with the RRA. Call me INSANE. OP, I am willing to bet that upper you're now selling would have endured thousands of rounds withomut incidence. I remember 5 years ago RRA and Bushy were all the rage. Suddenly they're a POS. I am well aware of the manufacturing processes, and I know that BCM etc, produce a rifle to a "higher" standard. But by no means is an RRA a bad gun. I would have kept it, and just bought an additional BCM as stated by a few others. RRA rifles are not some sort of plague. They do run, and run well. I wonder what will be touted as the new tactical gold standard in another five years.
you could also put it on GUNBROKER they sell well there !and as stated get a BCM or COLT of course I am going to say COLT :laugh: But BCM would be my second choice
I think RRA makes a decent rifle. Up to spec? No. I have a 16 inch RRA CAR upper riding on a CMMG lower. I have fired steel cased ammo through it and it has functioned %100. IMHO I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. I, as a civilian, trust my RRA for home defensive duties. How many rounds are realistically going to be fired in such a scenario? Two-three? I feel comfortable with the RRA. Call me INSANE. OP, I am willing to bet that upper you're now selling would have endured thousands of rounds withomut incidence. I remember 5 years ago RRA and Bushy were all the rage. Suddenly they're a POS. I am well aware of the manufacturing processes, and I know that BCM etc, produce a rifle to a "higher" standard. But by no means is an RRA a bad gun. I would have kept it, and just bought an additional BCM as stated by a few others. RRA rifles are not some sort of plague. They do run, and run well. I wonder what will be touted as the new tactical gold standard in another five years.
Pretty good for a first post. Reading the o no I bought an x thread, pretty much says to fix the minimal problems and then shoot the snot outta it.
' fixing' an out of spec rifle is about 4x cheaper than re buying. Some people will never be happy unless you have their brand on your rifle. Even if all you did was buy a blank marked BCm and stamped Bushmaster on the side. Those who really know their stuff know its the performance, not the name.
Cif you shoot it enough to recognize and fix the difference, you'll know what to do
KrampusArms
03-06-11, 15:20
Pretty good for a first post. Reading the o no I bought an x thread, pretty much says to fix the minimal problems and then shoot the snot outta it.
I plan on shooting the RRA until the barrel is worn out and I'll just replace it. The bolt carrier came properly staked from the factory believe it or not. I'm not BSin I know what is considered proper. The metal on the gas key is absolutely squashing the screws, contacting both sides. (Maybe RRA got the hint.) It is as adequate a staking job as any I've seen. Do I have buyers remorse? Yeah sure. Reading through this forum has taught me a lot. I know the barrel and bolt are inferior metals. I know the feed ramps aren't M4. But I am happy with its performance. I'll upgrade the parts as I go. So far I'm guessing I'll get great mileage out of it. No reason to sell it in my mind though. It feels solid, it looks solid, it shoots solid. Maybe I'll be eating crow, we'll see.
I plan on shooting the RRA until the barrel is worn out and I'll just replace it. The bolt carrier came properly staked from the factory believe it or not. I'm not BSin I know what is considered proper. The metal on the gas key is absolutely squashing the screws, contacting both sides. (Maybe RRA got the hint.) It is as adequate a staking job as any I've seen. Do I have buyers remorse? Yeah sure. Reading through this forum has taught me a lot. I know the barrel and bolt are inferior metals. I know the feed ramps aren't M4. But I am happy with its performance. I'll upgrade the parts as I go. So far I'm guessing I'll get great mileage out of it. No reason to sell it in my mind though. It feels solid, it looks solid, it shoots solid. Maybe I'll be eating crow, we'll see.
Mine came staked properly as well. And I wouldnt call it buyer's remorse so much as buyer's envy. I got a good deal on my rifle, and when I come on here and see all the builds and how much money these guys put into them it makes me wish I wasn't a broke college student.
KrampusArms
03-06-11, 17:02
Mine came staked properly as well. And I wouldnt call it buyer's remorse so much as buyer's envy. I got a good deal on my rifle, and when I come on here and see all the builds and how much money these guys put into them it makes me wish I wasn't a broke college student.
Buyers envy, yeah I agree. Theres some seriously awesome stuff I wish I could afford. I didn't get a great deal, but I wasn't ripped off either. I got the upper from a local shop. Later went and acquired the lower and parts and assembled it at home. Ran me a little less ($50) than a complete gun. So we have two RRA rifles that came properly factory staked now....
I remember 5 years ago RRA and Bushy were all the rage.
I dont believe they were ever considered "all the rage" or the "tactical gold standard" by anyone who knows anything about building quality rifles or carries a rifle on a daily basis to protect life.
KrampusArms
03-06-11, 18:53
I dont believe they were ever considered "all the rage" or the "tactical gold standard" by anyone who knows anything about building quality rifles or carries a rifle on a daily basis to protect life.
Allow me to rephrase that. I remember reading the forums, looking through picture threads, and observing a high popularity among those two manufacturers. Bushmaster/RRA recieved high praise, and were among a few other brands that would be recommended. Now I don't know if that was due to ignorance on behalf of everyone frequenting the forums then. But these rifles used to be popular. Thats all I meant by that.
I dont believe they were ever considered "all the rage" or the "tactical gold standard" by anyone who knows anything about building quality rifles or carries a rifle on a daily basis to protect life.
I dunno, back in the late 90s, before most of these companies were around it was
'ABC'
ALWAYS
BOYCOTT
COLT
I mean, buy Armalite or Bushmaster...:D
In fact Bushmaster was "the rage" and most people were so pissed at Colt and their non-M-16 bolt carriers and oversized pins that they had a pretty poor community reputation. In fact several highly respected people represented in some stickied threads recommended Bushmaster over Colt.
Times change, and so do companies. Just becuase companies are in favor now, doesn't mean they won't fall from grace or to be a bit more positive, some of the lower companies return to respectability.
I dunno, back in the late 90s, before most of these companies were around it was
'ABC'
ALWAYS
BOYCOTT
COLT
I mean, buy Armalite or Bushmaster...:D
In fact Bushmaster was "the rage" and most people were so pissed at Colt and their non-M-16 bolt carriers and oversized pins that they had a pretty poor community reputation. In fact several highly respected people represented in some stickied threads recommended Bushmaster over Colt.
I remember those days well :blink:
For the cash, BCM is good but check out Rainier Arms combat uppers. They are nearly the same price as BCM but include the bolt. So in reality, they are cheaper and the same quality level. Rainier does not carry garbage stuff so feel good buying anything with their name on it. If you want to get a premium upper, the Rainier Arms Ultra Match can not be beat.
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/browse&category=rainiercustomshop
All,
The RRA upper sold within 15 minutes of walking through the door at the gun show. The money will go towards a BCM 16 middy or a 14.5 middy with permanent FH.
Good to hear.... Gun shows are good for that..... lol
Here is what I just picked up. Hopefully in a week or two I will do a range report on it. I just have to break it in properly first.
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1004
I expect the Shillen barrel to be a real good shooter if all the stuff I read about them is true. But check out the specs of what you get for the price point. I priced all the parts out separate and it came out much more. Not sure how Rainier is making a good profit on these considering the parts level.
I have had their combat series upper in my hands too. While Rainier would not say who made the barrel, it was marked "DD" which makes me believe it is a Daniel Defense but just not advertised. The specs are that level for the barrel though.
If you are starting from scratch I suggest Palmetto for lower parts. CTR stock complete with tube and buffer - 100. Can't beat that with a stick.
lethal dose
03-06-11, 21:38
For the cash, BCM is good but check out Rainier Arms combat uppers. They are nearly the same price as BCM but include the bolt. So in reality, they are cheaper and the same quality level. Rainier does not carry garbage stuff so feel good buying anything with their name on it. If you want to get a premium upper, the Rainier Arms Ultra Match can not be beat.
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/browse&category=rainiercustomshop
could you shoot me a link? not seeing anything like this on their site.
These are chrome lined. Black carriers with MP bolts. Only difference between any of them is hand guard. Ecepty for the one with the magpul and gov profile carbine length. All the others are 16 in middies with different hand guards.
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/browse&category=rainiercustomshop_rainierarmscombatseries
Then there is the higher end Ultra Match with Shilen Barrels, chrome young national match bolts, PRI gasbuster charging handle and DD ultra light rail, and billet upper (most likely made by Mega to their specs)
Look down to the bottom of the page.
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/browse&category=rainiercustomshop_rainierarmsultramatchseries
I personally went with the Ultra Match. I wanted to try Shilens ratchet rifling and a chrome bolt cleans up soooo easy.
Sometimes Rainiers page is a little hard to navigate at first. But once you get it, it is not too bad.
lethal dose
03-06-11, 22:31
i saw that page, but am missing where their complete uppers are cheaper then BCM. do they not just sell a standard middy with fsb, bcg and ch without the handguard?
I'd say stake the gas key, Bravo company extractor upgrade kit, and "H" buffer.
I got a question, if Rocks are such poor quaility, why the DEA use them?
I think they may also be supplying them to Homeland dept's such as Border patrol, I not sure about that.
ok this is my first post. I am wondering why almost everyone seems to bash RRA. I do beleive that you get what you pay for. I ordered a RRA rifle. I know that the old ones used to have problems. But now it seems that they have fixed most of them. I owned a bushmaster before. Never had any problems with it. Now for paying for what you get. I own my fair share of weapons. I own a few kimber 1911's and a colt 1911. I have owned 22 rimefire all the way to 50bmg. So if someone can show me exactly what your paying for when you buy an upper that cost $2000 or even $1000. it would make alot more sense to me. I also have a colt H-bar. but i wanted another compact 5.56. I am also getting ready to order a 6.8 upper for my new rifle. I just want more help understanding why everone bashes RRA. It seams no different then the chevy, ford and mopar arguments.
Ive also shot les bear 1911's that didn't shoot as good as my kimber 1911.
Please read the stickies at the top of the technical forums: https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=4
"You don't know what you don't know". Read more, rant less.
ok this is my first post. I am wondering why almost everyone seems to bash RRA. I do beleive that you get what you pay for. I ordered a RRA rifle. I know that the old ones used to have problems. But now it seems that they have fixed most of them. I owned a bushmaster before. Never had any problems with it. Now for paying for what you get. I own my fair share of weapons. I own a few kimber 1911's and a colt 1911. I have owned 22 rimefire all the way to 50bmg. So if someone can show me exactly what your paying for when you buy an upper that cost $2000 or even $1000. it would make alot more sense to me. I also have a colt H-bar. but i wanted another compact 5.56. I am also getting ready to order a 6.8 upper for my new rifle. I just want more help understanding why everone bashes RRA. It seams no different then the chevy, ford and mopar arguments.
ok this is my first post. I am wondering why almost everyone seems to bash RRA. I do beleive that you get what you pay for. I ordered a RRA rifle. I know that the old ones used to have problems. But now it seems that they have fixed most of them. I owned a bushmaster before. Never had any problems with it. Now for paying for what you get. I own my fair share of weapons. I own a few kimber 1911's and a colt 1911. I have owned 22 rimefire all the way to 50bmg. So if someone can show me exactly what your paying for when you buy an upper that cost $2000 or even $1000. it would make alot more sense to me. I also have a colt H-bar. but i wanted another compact 5.56. I am also getting ready to order a 6.8 upper for my new rifle. I just want more help understanding why everone bashes RRA. It seams no different then the chevy, ford and mopar arguments.
It is what it is.
I bought Bushmaster, you bought RRA. We both took the cheap way out and bought commercial grade AR-15s. I knew when I bought mine that Colt was better but I couldn't afford a Colt. I learned what short comings mine had after owning it and upgraded as I went.
ok this is my first post. I am wondering why almost everyone seems to bash RRA. I do beleive that you get what you pay for. I ordered a RRA rifle. I know that the old ones used to have problems. But now it seems that they have fixed most of them. I owned a bushmaster before. Never had any problems with it. Now for paying for what you get. I own my fair share of weapons. I own a few kimber 1911's and a colt 1911. I have owned 22 rimefire all the way to 50bmg. So if someone can show me exactly what your paying for when you buy an upper that cost $2000 or even $1000. it would make alot more sense to me. I also have a colt H-bar. but i wanted another compact 5.56. I am also getting ready to order a 6.8 upper for my new rifle. I just want more help understanding why everone bashes RRA. It seams no different then the chevy, ford and mopar arguments.
Can you please point me to the $1000-$2000 uppers that you're looking at? and the equivalent RRA upper that costs less?
Of course it seems no different than Ford/Chevy. You have bought into the marketing hype that surrounds these things. Everyone touts their rifles as being "milspec" when they are not (frankly I think someone ought to sue all these manufacturers for false advertising, but that's another story). What really matters is understanding the "spec" and how it applies to your needs, and then finding a rifle that meets the criteria you require. Most AR manufacturers understand that the #1 criteria of the typical AR buyer is "look cool" followed by "work most of the time for my 200 rounds/year firing schedule". As long as they meet those two criteria they'll have customers for years to come, and the cost of fixing the odd gun that gets into the hands of an actual shooter is far less than simply making the entire production run better.
variablebinary
03-07-11, 06:22
If I had an RRA upper, I'd probably just shoot it till it explodes and replace parts as they break
Stake the gas key if it is lacking, keep a spare FCG in the bag; otherwise, just roll with it, and worry less. I can guarantee you the barrel wont explode and the commercial spec tube wont kill you.
The great thing about mid-grade AR15's is they still can be easily updated with a wealth of high quality parts currently available as needed.
Please read the stickies at the top of the technical forums: https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=4
"You don't know what you don't know". Read more, rant less.
wasn't really trying to rant. I just don't understand everything yet. I am always open to education. And i am deciding to read or else i just would have skipped joining the site. with time I shall learn sir. I also retain knowledge better if i am being spoken to rather then trying to find the answer on my own. thats why i like forums. I'm not trying to piss anyone off. Just trying to learn.
I'm not really worried about it blowing up in my face. Just trying to find out the difference between everything.
I also retain knowledge better if i am being spoken to rather then trying to find the answer on my own.
Totally off topic, but you need to work on fixing that. It is 2011, and information is available all around you. Those that cannot seek out and find their own will be stuck relying on what others (like a gunshop employee, or worse a politician or the media) tell them. This goes way beyond guns and shooting. It is a fundamental problem. A problem that permeates our entire society. You need the ability to seek out information from disparate sources, weigh the validity of same, and apply what you discover to your own reality.
IMHO this is what got you in trouble to begin with. You went somewhere that they were more than happy to speak to you because they had an agenda (motivated by price), and you may have wound up with a product that was less than you intended but more expensive than it needed to be.
variablebinary
03-07-11, 06:42
ok this is my first post. I am wondering why almost everyone seems to bash RRA. I do beleive that you get what you pay for. I ordered a RRA rifle. I know that the old ones used to have problems. But now it seems that they have fixed most of them. I owned a bushmaster before. Never had any problems with it. Now for paying for what you get. I own my fair share of weapons. I own a few kimber 1911's and a colt 1911. I have owned 22 rimefire all the way to 50bmg. So if someone can show me exactly what your paying for when you buy an upper that cost $2000 or even $1000. it would make alot more sense to me. I also have a colt H-bar. but i wanted another compact 5.56. I am also getting ready to order a 6.8 upper for my new rifle. I just want more help understanding why everone bashes RRA. It seams no different then the chevy, ford and mopar arguments.
A 100% true Colt AR15 has a well established set of guidelines and standards when it comes to materials and quality control.
These standards assure a certain level of performance that almost guarantees a weapon that is fit for combat/duty/self defense under all conditions. We have M16A2's in our Armory that have been run hard for 25 years and are still going strong. We have M4's that have seen multiple tours, and they still work just as well.
When you deviate from those Colt standards, you create performance variables that can creep up at inopportune times, and reduce the overall life and performance of the weapon.
Meaning, there is a greater chance of something breaking on an RRA compared to a Colt, because the RRA fails to adhere to the standards needed to ensure performance.
1/20 RRA's might have what is needed to be duty worthy, but how do you know which one you own without established standards?
Thank you for that. that make more sense then saying that it just sucks and you shouldn't buy it. I really am new to this side of the
AR world and i will appreciate any help learning.
Best, most succinct, explanation I've seen in a long time.
As Pat Rogers says "Those not required to adhere to a standard, rarely do."
A 100% true Colt AR15 has a well established set of guidelines and standards when it comes to materials and quality control.
These standards assure a certain level of performance that almost guarantees a weapon that is fit for combat/duty/self defense under all conditions. We have M16A2's in our Armory that have been run hard for 25 years and are still going strong. We have M4's that have seen multiple tours, and they still work just as well.
When you deviate from those Colt standards, you create performance variables that can creep up at inopportune times, and reduce the overall life and performance of the weapon.
Meaning, there is a greater chance of something breaking on an RRA compared to a Colt, because the RRA fails to adhere to the standards needed to ensure performance.
1/20 RRA's might have what is needed to be duty worthy, but how do you know which one you own without established standards?
variablebinary
03-07-11, 06:59
Thank you for that. that make more sense then saying that it just sucks and you shouldn't buy it. I really am new to this side of the
AR world and i will appreciate any help learning.
Glad I could help.
As for RRA, at one time I could see the appeal. An RRA entry tactical with a Chrome lined barrel could be had for $899 at one time, while Colt's were in rare supply at $1500. That was like 6 years ago.
Now chrome lined RRA Entry Tactical's are $1000+, and given their total disregard for the Colt standard, there is no reason to buy one over a $1200 Colt 6920, or $1100 LMT or DD XV.
For the price you get dramatically less, so they just aren't a good buy, even if they run reasonably well.
If someone is paying for an entry tactical for $1000+ then they are getting ripped off... My father jumped onto Rock River after a buddy from his last deployment suggested them. He has bought 2, I have bought 1, and my brother has bought 1. We have never paid more than $950, the entry tactical was $850, with transfer fees and and this was over the course of the last 4-5 years.
While I understand that certain aspects of the firearm are not what the Military spec'd when laying out the minimums for this rifle I don't lose sleep over whether my rifle will fire or not. I know it will, I maintain it, and I am proficient with it. Companies like BCM, Noveske, DD, and Colt take that standard and put out higher quality, which you pay for.
Rock River fits the niche they have occupied and that is fine. I plan on upgrading my BCG this summer, RE and buffer over spring break and way down the road a new barrel, but after that no worries.
I remember 5 years ago RRA and Bushy were all the rage.
And anyone who still thinks this 5 yrs later (not necessarily you) didn't put enough rounds through it in the 5 yrs to discover otherwise. Go run even a basic carbine class and see if the gun runs. If so, you're probably ok. My guess is, though, that the aforementioned issues will show up.
i saw that page, but am missing where their complete uppers are cheaper then BCM. do they not just sell a standard middy with fsb, bcg and ch without the handguard?
If you price all the parts that are included in the Rainier arms build compared to all the ones you need to later buy it does in fact come out cheaper. I could be wrong. But that is the way I figured it. Regardless, its only a few dollars and either manufacturer is great.
Well, this thread took off like a wheat field fire in mid to late summer.
The upper was sold and the money will be put towards a BCM upper soon. I bought my RRA ET 2 years ago for $900. I shot 3-400 rounds through it, no steel case and no training classes. I did not have any problems with the rifle. I discovered this website and I read and read and read through all of the knowledge based threads. I used the chart and all of the information that I could find to only conclude that I wanted to do an upgrade to one of my ARs and the RRA was the right choice. Am I stating that RRA is no good?? No, that has been said by many others here. I just want to make an informed and knowledge based upgrade. I will keep the lower and possibly make a few other changes in the future. Could I have waited until something broke on the upper?? Sure. But why keep patching things together when in the end I could have just done it all at once?? A new rifle would have done more for me but I thought going in this direction right now is a better decision. Also, it will help to save money for more ammo and practice. Thank you for all of your inputs.
A 100% true Colt AR15 has a well established set of guidelines and standards when it comes to materials and quality control.These standards assure a certain level of performance that almost guarantees a weapon that is fit for combat/duty/self defense under all conditions. We have M16A2's in our Armory that have been run hard for 25 years and are still going strong. We have M4's that have seen multiple tours, and they still work just as well.
When you deviate from those Colt standards, you create performance variables that can creep up at inopportune times, and reduce the overall life and performance of the weapon.
Meaning, there is a greater chance of something breaking on an RRA compared to a Colt, because the RRA fails to adhere to the standards needed to ensure performance.
1/20 RRA's might have what is needed to be duty worthy, but how do you know which one you own without established standards?
Does this also apply to their "post ban" configuration civilian rifles?? Just wondering. Thanks.
Does this also apply to their "post ban" configuration civilian rifles?? Just wondering. Thanks.
That's a good question because their website is showing all different models now o.O The older ones have different sized FCG pins (some have different sized take down pins) and sear blocks. Also from the mid 80s-'92 they had huge QC issues.
Good to hear.... Gun shows are good for that..... lol
Here is what I just picked up. Hopefully in a week or two I will do a range report on it. I just have to break it in properly first.
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1004
I expect the Shillen barrel to be a real good shooter if all the stuff I read about them is true. But check out the specs of what you get for the price point. I priced all the parts out separate and it came out much more. Not sure how Rainier is making a good profit on these considering the parts level.
I have had their combat series upper in my hands too. While Rainier would not say who made the barrel, it was marked "DD" which makes me believe it is a Daniel Defense but just not advertised. The specs are that level for the barrel though.
If you are starting from scratch I suggest Palmetto for lower parts. CTR stock complete with tube and buffer - 100. Can't beat that with a stick.
Gun shows are hard to beat for selling. I hadn't been to one in a while and was amazed at the stuff that was being sold. Only 2 ARs that I saw that were hard to walk away from were the Colt 6721 for $1200 and an HK 416 thingy for much much more. The other end of the spectrum was very very well represented as well I might add. Sorry, I think this is 3 posts in a row and that might be illegal :D:sarcastic: Bolt of lightning.....NOW!!!
That's a good question because their website is showing all different models now o.O The older ones have different sized FCG pins (some have different sized take down pins) and sear blocks. Also from the mid 80s-'92 they had huge QC issues.
It would be nice to know. Yes, I have one, an MT 6400c (de-banned) so I would like to know.:)
variablebinary
03-08-11, 00:15
That's a good question because their website is showing all different models now o.O The older ones have different sized FCG pins (some have different sized take down pins) and sear blocks. Also from the mid 80s-'92 they had huge QC issues.
How often do you hear about Colt's that don't work? Rarely, irrespective of when they were made, even for older "compliance" models.
Do a search, even on this forum, or even on TOS. Broken Colt, or non-functioning Colt threads just don't pop up that often.
How often do you hear about Colt's that don't work? Rarely, irrespective of when they were made, even for older "compliance" models.
Do a search, even on this forum, or even on TOS. Broken Colt, or non-functioning Colt threads just don't pop up that often.
Where did I say "don't work" or "broken"? More like stupid assembly mistakes. I'm not sure anyone has to worry accidentally buying the wrong NIB 23 y/o rifle though o.O
I've actually only seen one AR break which was a Colt :gasp: (It was a Sporter NFA conversion and had countless rounds through it, lower broke right in front of the rear take down pin.)
What I think is the source of all the fun is there are three groups of folks around here.
Group 1: If it doesn't say DD, LMT, or Colt, its crap.
Group 2:group 1 if full of fanboys and themselves. My rifle is the bomb
Group 3: dd, Bcm, colt and noveske make the best rifle. Other companies make rifles of lesser quality and here is the difference. Decide for yourself if the price is worth it.
I try and ignore groups 1 and 2 although no one d will claim to be members of them
What I think is the source of all the fun is there are three groups of folks around here.
Group 1: If it doesn't say DD, LMT, or Colt, its crap.
Group 2:group 1 if full of fanboys and themselves. My rifle is the bomb
Group 3: dd, Bcm, colt and noveske make the best rifle. Other companies make rifles of lesser quality and here is the difference. Decide for yourself if the price is worth it.
I try and ignore groups 1 and 2 although no one d will claim to be members of them
You left out Group 4 and 5.
Group 4: My BM/DPMS/Oly/RRA is the best and I become butt hurt when confronted with the facts about what makes a fighting gun a fighting gun so I throw a fit on the errornet for all to see.
Group 5: I am jealous of the fact that I don't own a BCM/Colt/DD/Noveske/KAC/LMT so I am going to spend too much money attempting to put lipstick on my pig. What I should be doing with said money is attending a shooting class so I can learn what I don't know.
C4
Where did I say "don't work" or "broken"? More like stupid assembly mistakes. I'm not sure anyone has to worry accidentally buying the wrong NIB 23 y/o rifle though o.O
I've actually only seen one AR break which was a Colt :gasp: (It was a Sporter NFA conversion and had countless rounds through it, lower broke right in front of the rear take down pin.)
Right in front of the rear takedown pin is right about where the lower would have been drilled and milled out to install the auto-sear. Do you think that had anything to do with the failure?
You left out Group 4 and 5.
Group 4: My BM/DPMS/Oly/RRA is the best and I become butt hurt when confronted with the facts about what makes a fighting gun a fighting gun so I throw a fit on the errornet for all to see.
Group 5: I am jealous of the fact that I don't own a BCM/Colt/DD/Noveske/KAC/LMT so I am going to spend too much money attempting to put lipstick on my pig. What I should be doing with said money is attending a shooting class so I can learn what I don't know.
C4
And Group 6: I bought a Bushmaster / RRA 1st and now have moved up to DD/BCM but I'm not going to throw away my Bushmaster/RRA. :)
Several days late to the party, but Rob, many, many thanks for all of your hard work. I very much look forward to the new chart.
Thanks,
Pete
What I think is the source of all the fun is there are three groups of folks around here.
Group 1: If it doesn't say DD, LMT, or Colt, its crap.
Group 2:group 1 if full of fanboys and themselves. My rifle is the bomb
Group 3: dd, Bcm, colt and noveske make the best rifle. Other companies make rifles of lesser quality and here is the difference. Decide for yourself if the price is worth it.
I try and ignore groups 1 and 2 although no one d will claim to be members of them
You also forgot about my "group": My department purchased 25 new RRA 16" mid-length rifles for our gang unit. 15 of the factory rifles that we received were non-functional/DOA due to faulty FCG's. That's right, 25 factory delivered rifles that weren't even functioned checked before they were delivered to an agency! And I have seen more RRA rifles not assembled properly straight outta the box or fail during carbine classes due to poor quality control than any other brand of AR15 platform rifle.
Sorry guys you'll have to do better than than (consider this a Monty Pyhton-esque "splitters!"):D
In fact, I could narrow it down to 2 groups:
(1&2)Fanboys.
(3)Helpful individuals.
The only difference between 1 & 2 is who they support. Neither group is especially insightful or helpful. Just being a fan of the best model doesn't score points in the "what should I do category" of questions.
Everything else is pegging points as they say. If you find yourself offended by those groupings, well too bad. Most things I would profess to be open to. This, I'm very certain of. Guns/Computers/Cars..the individuals who congregate on a board, are pretty much the same.
This has probably strayed to far from the OP.
My message was--listen to helpful individuals and ignore the fanboys. It sounds like you made an informed decision. Not that the RRA wasn't salvagable, but do what ya gotta do.
Now go shoot.
Right in front of the rear takedown pin is right about where the lower would have been drilled and milled out to install the auto-sear. Do you think that had anything to do with the failure?
That would be my opinion. It got rewelded and refinished and it worked fine.
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