View Full Version : A return to gold and silver.
Gettin' ready for the total collapse of the US Dollar.
Utah Considers Return to Gold, Silver Coins
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/03/utah-considers-return-gold-silver-coins/
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The Utah House was to vote as early as Thursday on legislation that would recognize gold and silver coins issued by the federal government as legal currency in the state. The coins would not replace the current paper currency but would be used and accepted voluntarily as an alternative.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/03/utah-considers-return-gold-silver-coins/#ixzz1FaWaSMQF
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variablebinary
03-03-11, 19:11
Gettin' ready for the total collapse of the US Dollar.
Better than this to buy a loaf or bread
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OhF9OpDsgfs/Sgp3R27OyRI/AAAAAAAACEM/SJxH5Dzc4A4/s1600/zimbabwe-cash-inflation.jpg
Ive been collecting Pre 65 coins for a few years now.
I'm sure I'm a broken record at this point - but if the dollar collapses so does the price of gold and silver. It's valued using paper money, I'm pretty sure nobody here is buying precious metals with smiles. And the dollar is universally (its a universal currency, that's its value) used for buying commodities so pretty much everything & every currency is backed by the dollar.
So keep collecting your gold & silver wishing for the day shtf, because you'll be ****ed as well. This shit ain't Zimbabwe and we don't have the same risk of hyperinflation etc, what we risk with a collapse is a collapse of the western world. And no Russia & China won't be landing in Alaska and California, they're economies rely on ours heavily.
Business_Casual
03-04-11, 06:23
I'm sure I'm a broken record at this point - but if the dollar collapses so does the price of gold and silver. It's valued using paper money, I'm pretty sure nobody here is buying precious metals with smiles. And the dollar is universally (its a universal currency, that's its value) used for buying commodities so pretty much everything & every currency is backed by the dollar.
So keep collecting your gold & silver wishing for the day shtf, because you'll be ****ed as well. This shit ain't Zimbabwe and we don't have the same risk of hyperinflation etc, what we risk with a collapse is a collapse of the western world. And no Russia & China won't be landing in Alaska and California, they're economies rely on ours heavily.
Exactly - Russia's economy is essentially a giant put on energy (mostly consumed by the West) and China's economy is based on Westerners opening a new factory there daily, and holding our debt. If we go down, they go down.
B_C
montanadave
03-04-11, 09:09
It seems to me that if one is attempting to prepare themselves for an impending economic Armageddon and TEOTWAWKI, one would be better served buying beans, bullets and bandages as opposed to bullion.
Rmplstlskn
03-04-11, 09:40
The Utah House was to vote as early as Thursday on legislation that would recognize gold and silver coins issued by the federal government as legal currency in the state.
I will GLADLY accept any silver or gold US coins for FACE VALUE.... :dirol: LOL!
PM for my address...
Rmpl
I'm sure I'm a broken record at this point - but if the dollar collapses so does the price of gold and silver. It's valued using paper money, I'm pretty sure nobody here is buying precious metals with smiles. And the dollar is universally (its a universal currency, that's its value) used for buying commodities so pretty much everything & every currency is backed by the dollar.
So keep collecting your gold & silver wishing for the day shtf, because you'll be ****ed as well. This shit ain't Zimbabwe and we don't have the same risk of hyperinflation etc, what we risk with a collapse is a collapse of the western world. And no Russia & China won't be landing in Alaska and California, they're economies rely on ours heavily.
This is kind of my thought as well and is why I have not put any money into Gold and Silver (at this point).
It appears that people in the "know" are buying items that they can trade with. This would be such things as guns, ammo, reloading supplies, etc. As an FFL dealer, I get great prices on things and I know that I will be able to sell any gun or ammo for at least a 10% profit or trade for something else (hog, cow, chicken, etc). This makes a lot more sense than buying inflated Gold and Silver prices.
C4
Business_Casual
03-04-11, 10:27
I have said it before, if gold and silver have some value that is intrinsic, why do the sellers accept FRNs in exchange?
B_C
I'm sure I'm a broken record at this point - but if the dollar collapses so does the price of gold and silver. It's valued using paper money, I'm pretty sure nobody here is buying precious metals with smiles. And the dollar is universally (its a universal currency, that's its value) used for buying commodities so pretty much everything & every currency is backed by the dollar.
I don't follow (and no, I am not a big buyer of Gold or Silver). If the dollar collapses, commodities prices will go UP since they are priced in dollars. The value of the commodities will not go down and since the dollar will have gone down, the price will have had to go up.
If the dollar collapses, commodities prices will go UP since they are priced in dollars. The value of the commodities will not go down and since the dollar will have gone down, the price will have had to go up.
Correct
I have said it before, if gold and silver have some value that is intrinsic, why do the sellers accept FRNs in exchange?
B_C
This question makes no sense. People have always traded for things and FRN are the standard method of exchange today. That is all they are is a method of exchange that could change tomorrow. Storing your wealth as FRN is mighty dangerous. People in the past traded other things for Gold and Silver and other commodities. Today that same Gold and Silver is traded for with FRN. The Gold and Silver still has value. If FRN collapse, they won't have value.
So Having Silver; which is essentially a stand alone water purifier (A little charred carbon in the mix if you feel so inclined; but Silver will purify water all alone with enough contact time) would be worhtless in a SHTF situation huh?
News to me...
Just think about it, you could be the guy purifying water to trade for wahtever you need. Not a bad gig in TETOWAKI.
People who prepared extensively will trade you stuff for your gold and silver for a huge loss on your part I can gaurantee. May not be the most common trades happening, but it will still be viable, not as viable as other things, but viable none the less.
Bullets, guns, grain, and proper equipment for survival are absolutely necessary, but remember, silver has a niche. Gold being a bit less desireable.
BC; I traded a small portion of my gold that I had for a long time and spent less than 1/6 of the going rate; for FRN's; only to turn the worthless FRN's into tangible goods. It is just an exchange remember (Currently we exchange for FRN's since we are FORCED to; things will change; are changing)? So right here right now we exchange for FRN's, but that ain't going to sustain, gold & silver will be exchanged for goods long after the last printing press' are turned off.
ANd yes when the dollar collapses, gold and silver prices will skyrocket. Along with everything else guys; especially food, guns, water and the like.
I have said it before, if gold and silver have some value that is intrinsic, why do the sellers accept FRNs in exchange?
B_C
These questions hurt my head. Because that is the method of exchange we are FORCED to utilize currently. Look to history buddy, what we exchange for, has changed many times, and will again, surely.
I don't follow (and no, I am not a big buyer of Gold or Silver). If the dollar collapses, commodities prices will go UP since they are priced in dollars. The value of the commodities will not go down and since the dollar will have gone down, the price will have had to go up.
If currency goes out the window how the hell will you buy commodities on a market? The markets will close, the world will be in turmoil. Shit that has value will be the only thing of value, a shiny piece of gold isn't going to do much for anyone.
The only similar events in recent history are that of Europe and Asia during WW2, gold was pretty much worthless for those trying to survive. Nobody wanted your gold for a loaf of bread, they wanted something of value that was tangible for their situation, and gold isn't.
So Having Silver; which is essentially a stand alone water purifier (A little charred carbon in the mix if you feel so inclined; but Silver will purify water all alone with enough contact time) would be worhtless in a SHTF situation huh?
Carbon and sand are a hell of a lot cheaper, and a water bottle half painted black and some plastic tubing are even cheaper. ;)
I'm sure I'm a broken record at this point - but if the dollar collapses so does the price of gold and silver. It's valued using paper money, I'm pretty sure nobody here is buying precious metals with smiles. And the dollar is universally (its a universal currency, that's its value) used for buying commodities so pretty much everything & every currency is backed by the dollar.
So keep collecting your gold & silver wishing for the day shtf, because you'll be ****ed as well. This shit ain't Zimbabwe and we don't have the same risk of hyperinflation etc, what we risk with a collapse is a collapse of the western world. And no Russia & China won't be landing in Alaska and California, they're economies rely on ours heavily.
There's always a reset. All the fiat money is worthless. Gold and Silver are still worth something if you can trust another fiat money. They've been money for thousands of years.
variablebinary
03-04-11, 18:29
If the dollar collapses, that doesn't necessarily mean commodities prices with drop too due to the global nature of commodities trading.
Short term, use of commodities to sustain wealth would work, but if the USA goes down, we are dragging lots of people down with us, which in turn would affect commodities pricing over time. Though, we know gold will be here tomorrow. No way we can guarantee the same thing about the dollar.
If currency goes out the window how the hell will you buy commodities on a market? The markets will close, the world will be in turmoil. Shit that has value will be the only thing of value, a shiny piece of gold isn't going to do much for anyone.
The only similar events in recent history are that of Europe and Asia during WW2, gold was pretty much worthless for those trying to survive. Nobody wanted your gold for a loaf of bread, they wanted something of value that was tangible for their situation, and gold isn't.
Plenty of people, even in Europe, during WW2 prized gold. Look at all the Nazi looting. The melting of fillings in the death camps from the corpses, etc.
Gold will be good to have even in a total meltdown, and there are lots of partial meltdown scenarios where it is even better. Trying to poo-poo gold by coming up with the worst case scenario won't get you very far as there are lots of scenarios where it will do really well.
I am not saying one should put all their eggs in one basket. One should also have a good stockpile of food, clothing, guns, ammo, and other commodities.
--
You have seen "Kelly's Heroes" haven't you? :D
Carbon and sand are a hell of a lot cheaper, and a water bottle half painted black and some plastic tubing are even cheaper. ;)
Carbon and sand won't necessarily get rid of biotics. Silver will. If done right.
There's always a reset. All the fiat money is worthless. Gold and Silver are still worth something if you can trust another fiat money. They've been money for thousands of years.
Old Gold coins are an example of this. The same coin may have been bought and sold a few times over the last few centuries using multiple different currencies or other trading mediums. Those mediums may now be worthless but the gold coin is not.
If currency goes out the window how the hell will you buy commodities on a market? The markets will close, the world will be in turmoil. Shit that has value will be the only thing of value, a shiny piece of gold isn't going to do much for anyone.
You don't seem to see the flaw of your own argument. Understand this:
There will be people who would be destroyed during a fiat currency crisis, as they have nothing as it is
There are people who are smart and have enough to sustain themselves for immediate future, but would need to barter shortly thereafter
There are people who are rich, not only with money, but possessions and raw resources, who will be perfectly well off if such a collapse happens. Sure, it might be a great hindrance, but they have the resources to live a comfortable life.
Everything would lose it's value in terms of dollars, not just "certain stuff." Everything would be affected. What I think you're attempting to say is that people wouldn't care about useless crap, like CDs or iPods or foot warmers. That might be true on the surface, but the reality is that the economy would still level out in the intermediate future. It might be better (highly unlikely), it might be the same as before (unlikely), or it might be worse (highly plausible). Once that happens, whatever state the economy is in becomes the new norm.
Once that new norm is reached, people want to buy nice things again, whether its because they need it, because they want it, or just because it's something no one else has. This has been true throughout the entirety of history and has always been true for gold and silver.
Most people don't look forward to living with the bare essentials and if that becomes the norm, then luxury items gain very high value, as no one is producing them because no one can afford them, driving the costs up even higher. It's self-perpetuating.
Functionally speaking, gold would have little value immediately after a crash, but neither would anything else that wasn't necessary to survival (and those that did possess such items wouldn't be inclined to sell them, so it's a moot point). Soon thereafter, people would accept their conditions and items with intrinsic value would return to their original state. Gold and silver would soon pick back up and they would retain their value in the intermediate-to-long term. The difference is that people with gold know for a fact that they can get some decent value out of what they put into it, not so with fiat currency.
ForTehNguyen
03-04-11, 19:09
Ive been collecting Pre 65 coins for a few years now.
nickels now are worth 7.25 cents, im gonna go to the bank every week and get $50 worth. The lowest it can go is 5 cents, talk about no risk at all
It seems to me that if one is attempting to prepare themselves for an impending economic Armageddon and TEOTWAWKI, one would be better served buying beans, bullets and bandages as opposed to bullion.
most realistic crisis we face is a dollar currency crisis not a zombie alien attack. Food doesnt exactly store value well, it loses value everyday and isnt portable and value dense like metals are. Dont get me wrong I have food, but going all food and bullets isnt a good idea.
Carbon and sand won't necessarily get rid of biotics. Silver will. If done right.
That's what sunlight is for :P My black glass bottle and tubing. Man I'll distill my own water with that. I'll be rich. :D I'll use some copper piping to kill off any pesky algae and the likes as well :D
You don't seem to see the flaw of your own argument. Understand this:
Are we not talking about a catastrophic collapse of economies around the world if the dollar collapses? I'm pretty sure we are, so I'm not seeing these flaws. You're seeing things from a place where a market is in place to exchange goods.
ForTehNguyen
03-04-11, 20:17
Are we not talking about a catastrophic collapse of economies around the world if the dollar collapses? I'm pretty sure we are, so I'm not seeing these flaws. You're seeing things from a place where a market is in place to exchange goods.
other economies will benefit the sooner they stop paying the US economic welfare like China. The US is the worst customer you can possibly have, taking all the goods but paying back not with products with worthless paper. There will be a day of reckoning.
All the world wide inflation going on now is because of our money printing and exporting of our inflation. That inflation will come back to us someday, and that will be the real pain. The ones that are clueless that done prepare are the ones that's going to be caught off guard and suffer immensely.
Are we not talking about a catastrophic collapse of economies around the world if the dollar collapses? I'm pretty sure we are, so I'm not seeing these flaws. You're seeing things from a place where a market is in place to exchange goods.
Unless there is a complete collapse of all infrastructure entirely, followed by societal uprising, and only then if it gets to the point that all wandering people are to be shot on sight, there will always be bartering in some form.
You don't need a marketplace, you can meet people and swap wares wherever you might meet someone else. Those who seem to think that a breakdown of the financial system also means a breakdown of society entirely don't seem to comprehend that those people need to get their goods from someone or something. If there are no markets, then people will meet to trade wares just as they have since written history has been recorded. And, just as in society today, people will want rare items and trinkets.
People who claim that a financial breakdown means that people will simply run to the hills and fend for themselves are living in a dream world. Most people are not armed, most people are not self-sufficient, and most people are not thieves and murders, so they must either purchase what they need to live, provide it for themselves, or barter for it. The first option isn't open and the second isn't realistic for most people, leaving only the third.
It's common sense.
Business_Casual
03-04-11, 21:22
Wow, we'll all WALK to the marketplace to trade goods with gold and silver. Man, what color is the sky in your world? In a total collapse you'd be luckier to die in the first 3 days.
Do you have any concept of how much time people in the Middle Ages spent just putting TWO meals a day on the table? 85%, IIRC, of their waking hours. And they didn't sleep more than us either. Speaking of sleep, you won't get much of that either, being up on shifts to prevent people from stealing your shit. Get over it and get down with the sickness. If FRNs collapse, we're all in the shit no matter how many silver dimes you have stored in a sock.
B_C
I have silver that was given to me by my grandfather. I keep it around because it would be better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it. Kind of like ammo, water, shelter, food, generator, gasoline, etc.
Dismissing it out of hand, for events none of us have ever experienced, is a little myopic. Things may normalize, and while 100,000 people during SHTF may see no value in gold or silver you only need to find the one who DOES value it for it to be of use.
Why did the 49ers risk everything, including their lives, to find a few small rocks in the hills? Hell, trappers used to live like kings and their currency was pelts.
rickrock305
03-04-11, 21:48
Just look at how long gold has been prized. Throughout history gold has been used for currency. Just name one currency that has outlasted gold.
Business_Casual
03-04-11, 22:25
Let's say it is 1559. And you want to get your dowry for your 13 year old bride to her father in Cordoba, who wants to defend his property agains Moorish marauders. Let's see, can you wire him $100,000 from your laptop in Panera? No, because none of those things exist. So you sail over to Spain and drop off a chest of gold and jewels.
Let's say it is 2011 and you want to buy a Porsche off of eBay, so you sail over there with a chest of silver and gold or do you click "Buy it Now" and send the funds (FRN) via EFT?
Has it clicked in yet, do you see how gold functioned in the past? Do you see how impractical it would be to go down to Safeway and try to buy a ribeye with a handfull of gold nuggets?
Who is myopic...
B_C
Let's say it is 1559. And you want to get your dowry for your 13 year old bride to her father in Cordoba, who wants to defend his property agains Moorish marauders. Let's see, can you wire him $100,000 from your laptop in Panera? No, because none of those things exist. So you sail over to Spain and drop off a chest of gold and jewels.
Let's say it is 2011 and you want to buy a Porsche off of eBay, so you sail over there with a chest of silver and gold or do you click "Buy it Now" and send the funds (FRN) via EFT?
Has it clicked in yet, do you see how gold functioned in the past? Do you see how impractical it would be to go down to Safeway and try to buy a ribeye with a handfull of gold nuggets?
Who is myopic...
B_C
Your example has nothing to do with reality. But we've been through this before. I suggest you look and refresh your memory with previous gold standard threads.
Unless there is a complete collapse of all infrastructure entirely, followed by societal uprising, and only then if it gets to the point that all wandering people are to be shot on sight, there will always be bartering in some form.
You don't need a marketplace, you can meet people and swap wares wherever you might meet someone else. Those who seem to think that a breakdown of the financial system also means a breakdown of society entirely don't seem to comprehend that those people need to get their goods from someone or something. If there are no markets, then people will meet to trade wares just as they have since written history has been recorded. And, just as in society today, people will want rare items and trinkets.
People who claim that a financial breakdown means that people will simply run to the hills and fend for themselves are living in a dream world. Most people are not armed, most people are not self-sufficient, and most people are not thieves and murders, so they must either purchase what they need to live, provide it for themselves, or barter for it. The first option isn't open and the second isn't realistic for most people, leaving only the third.
It's common sense.
I'm not saying people will be murdering each other, I'm saying a pack of seeds will have more value than an ounce of gold. Gold has value when you have a functional economy. But when you're talking about 1,000's of micro-economies formed around small communities people will want shit that's of use, and you can argue that gold & silver will fill in the gap of a universal currency making it easier for an apple grower to trade his goods to others since not everyone will want apples but that's bs because he'll need to sell his apples for gold and you'll need a market to set a value of that gold and you'll need a way to make fair value across all these little communities.
And what people are talking about when they talk about the fall of the dollar in these threads are shtf the entire country has collapsed. Scenarios where a farmer has more worth than an investment banker.
So in the end your $1,500,000 in gold today will have less value than my 4 cows in this post apocalyptic future.
I'm not saying people will be murdering each other, I'm saying a pack of seeds will have more value than an ounce of gold. Gold has value when you have a functional economy. But when you're talking about 1,000's of micro-economies formed around small communities people will want shit that's of use, and you can argue that gold & silver will fill in the gap of a universal currency making it easier for an apple grower to trade his goods to others since not everyone will want apples but that's bs because he'll need to sell his apples for gold and you'll need a market to set a value of that gold and you'll need a way to make fair value across all these little communities.
And what people are talking about when they talk about the fall of the dollar in these threads are shtf the entire country has collapsed. Scenarios where a farmer has more worth than an investment banker.
So in the end your $1,500,000 in gold today will have less value than my 4 cows in this post apocalyptic future.
Unlikely.
And the probably scenarios are much less than a post-apocalyptic future and gold and silver have a big role to play in many many of these scenarios.
Like when the US economy collapses and the dollar is worth crap, but the rest of the world adjusts and functions more or less "normally."
In that case I wish I had 1.5$M in gold instead of maybe $2000.
Has it clicked in yet, do you see how gold functioned in the past? Do you see how impractical it would be to go down to Safeway and try to buy a ribeye with a handfull of gold nuggets?
Who is myopic...
B_C
So Safeway will exist in your disaster/SHTF reality? Interesting.
History of the world, for as long as there has been history, says gold and other precious metals serve some purpose as currency and represent a store of value. I'm sorry you disagree, but there are 1000's of years stacked against you.
You know and are comfortable with FRN's, great. Please illustrate your basis in proving your point? It's got nothing to do with Safeway, or current reality, BTW. You expect everyone to jump to your scenario, as precisely outlined where gold and silver have no value at all, in any capacity. However you are failing to understand that all you're really doing is directing your wild stream into a 60 mph headwind.
Please outline anything in your lifetime that gives you the depth of knowledge to COMPLETELY rule out gold or silver as having any store of value, or serve as any sort of commodity in the presence of a COMPLETE failure of the US dollar. I already know you can't, but figured I'd ask.
Telling us that there will be absolutely no use in having some gold or silver around is like someone who has never been shot at, or in a gunfight, telling me I don't need to carry spare magazines with me.
Might end up being true, might not.
But when you're talking about 1,000's of micro-economies formed around small communities people will want shit that's of use, and you can argue that gold & silver will fill in the gap of a universal currency making it easier for an apple grower to trade his goods to others since not everyone will want apples but that's bs because he'll need to sell his apples for gold and you'll need a market to set a value of that gold and you'll need a way to make fair value across all these little communities.
How did the people of Jamestown, and other colonies trade with Indians for seeds, and food? Trinkets, baubles, etc. No value to the colonists, but valued for whatever reason to a stable peer group.
The stance being taken in this thread is very short sighted. Things will start to normalize to the post-collapse reality, and gold and silver may end up with some sort of diluted value, or a vast value depending on variables we can't pretend to understand.
.... I'm saying a pack of seeds will have more value than an ounce of gold....
That might possibly be true in the very near term to the failure. What if the person with whom you'd like to trade has everything you have in triplicate, is stable themselves, and really doesn't need anything -- gold may offer an incentive for trade as it has, literally, for at least a millenia.
Wow, we'll all WALK to the marketplace to trade goods with gold and silver. Man, what color is the sky in your world? In a total collapse you'd be luckier to die in the first 3 days.
Do you have any concept of how much time people in the Middle Ages spent just putting TWO meals a day on the table? 85%, IIRC, of their waking hours. And they didn't sleep more than us either. Speaking of sleep, you won't get much of that either, being up on shifts to prevent people from stealing your shit. Get over it and get down with the sickness. If FRNs collapse, we're all in the shit no matter how many silver dimes you have stored in a sock.
B_C
You quote barbarism from past historical examples yet completely ignore the fact THAT THEY MINED GOLD THEN.
Gold has ALWAYS been valued, throughout all times by virtually all peoples. Claiming that "we" would be different is stupidity. We are not any different than the people before us, especially if stripped of the technology we rely on.
Some people need to retake middle school history. Thinking that mankind has somehow changed is insanity. Truly, go look up the definition. We have SIX THOUSAND years of proof that gold is and always will be valued, yet for some reason people think that having an opinion and an internet connection changes that. History says different.
We have SIX THOUSAND years of proof that gold is and always will be valued, yet for some reason people think that having an opinion and an internet connection changes that. History says different.
Mark the date, I am not sure I have ever agreed with you before. :jester:
Business_Casual
03-05-11, 07:31
My point is that the technology of the past is why gold and jewels were used as money. My point is also that those times have past - are we going to ship a million tons of gold to China every month to pay for the TVs and laundry baskets we use?
Maybe I'm not the one who needs to look up the history of and problems caused by precious metal monetary standards. But I do agree you should carry a spare mag, brother! :cool:
B_C
Cagemonkey
03-05-11, 07:57
My point is that the technology of the past is why gold and jewels were used as money. My point is also that those times have past - are we going to ship a million tons of gold to China every month to pay for the TVs and laundry baskets we use?
Maybe I'm not the one who needs to look up the history of and problems caused by precious metal monetary standards. But I do agree you should carry a spare mag, brother! :cool:
B_CYou should read "End The Fed" by Ron Paul. It would answer allot questions that you have about gold.
I don't think anyone would say that they wouldn't want a sack full of gold or silver coins. With that said, I don't think it is a good idea to be buying it in bulk right now.
There are two concepts that lead to a collapse of the US currency. First is our GOVT screwing the pooch and the other involves an EMP blast that sends us back to the stone age. In this last event, having things to trade with will be king. If we think people are consumed with firearms and defending themselves now, just wait till you have to deal with people from the cities coming to your home to take what they need to survive. This scenario is what concerns me the most (as I can deal with the other much easier).
If you think I am crazy about the EMP thing, make sure to read my comments about a convo with a US Treasury Agent: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=59417&page=2
C4
ForTehNguyen
03-05-11, 09:04
So in the end your $1,500,000 in gold today will have less value than my 4 cows in this post apocalyptic future.
too bad your scenario isn't the likely scenario. The most likely scenario is a huge dollar crisis and devaluation.
Be realistic
ForTehNguyen
03-05-11, 09:06
My point is that the technology of the past is why gold and jewels were used as money. My point is also that those times have past - are we going to ship a million tons of gold to China every month to pay for the TVs and laundry baskets we use?
Maybe I'm not the one who needs to look up the history of and problems caused by precious metal monetary standards. But I do agree you should carry a spare mag, brother! :cool:
B_C
we were still using the standard back up until 1971. Did you notice what happened to prices once we went off a gold standard? Our greatest economic growth was under a gold standard. And we have lost a massive amount of purchasing power when we left it.
China would rather have that gold than worthless toilet paper.
too bad your scenario isn't the likely scenario. The most likely scenario is a huge dollar crisis and devaluation.
Be realistic
And buying gold isn't going to protect you from inflation like you think it is. It's called speculating and it's extremely risky. Right now people are treating it as a currency instead of a commodity, and with it comes a large risk.
Once interest starts to climb you'll see gold prices drop.
Here the thing, right now an ounce of gold runs around $300-$500 per ounce to produce. So selling at $1k+ is pretty much a fn bubble being propped up by yahoos thinking gold is a protection against inflation. It's like spending a $2 to get $.75 in return, it just don't make no stinkin sense :P
It's a bubble being inflated by people wanting to buy gold because it's increased in value so much and the pattern repeating itself until we get to the point it's unsustainable and gold prices crash.
we were still using the standard back up until 1971. Did you notice what happened to prices once we went off a gold standard? Our greatest economic growth was under a gold standard. And we have lost a massive amount of purchasing power when we left it.
China would rather have that gold than worthless toilet paper.
Under the gold standard China would own more of our wealth than every before. They would have significant influence in our currency.
My 2 cents. China is buying gold and silver like crazy. They know that the U.S. dollar is on its last legs.
During a crisis, goods such as food, water, medical supplies, tools, gasoline, firewood, ammunition etc. will be king. Metals should be seen as a store of value for limited trading and the ability to "start over" after things have stabilized.
The historical value of gold and silver is real, but in a catastrophe, people aren't going to be worrying about that when they're hungry...but wait a minute. Maybe the banker wants to buy a few bushels of wheat and he has some gold. I'll do the trade because gold has intrinsic value, if I have a lot of bushels of wheat available.
People continually talk about the increase in prices or the high cost of something. This is not because that car or rifle has somehow become better, it is because the dollar has become worth less due to the governments excessive printing.
ForTehNguyen
03-05-11, 09:37
gold was and is always money. There is a reason why the FF explicity said it was the money in our Constitution. If gold isnt money, why do central banks hold it?
I am not sure I would be pumping money into gold right now. Maybe a little gold and some silver. But I do agree we are probably in a bubble.
I don't think that we are in the end game economically. Things will labor on for a while as we continue to dig our hole deeper. Gold (and silver) will go down to more historical levels, at which time I would again lay on the gold and silver because the crash will eventually happen.
But what if I am wrong? What if we really are in the end game and there is no short term (5-10 years?) of cheating the piper? That is a call you have to make.
Right now I would make sure I have:
* enough food for my family for at least 1 year. Including water or at least water purifying means (large enough to provide daily water for whole family for a year). Besides the staples of wheat, rice, beans, and other grains, sugar, oil, etc, I would have ready-to-eat, as well as freeze dried basic staples like vegetable and fruits, etc. Also "desert" items to break up the monotony, and canned or freeze dried meats. (Besides a years supply of wheat, beans, and staples, I am working towards 2 weeks of MRE type food, a few weeks of complete meal freeze dried meals, and 3 months of normal canned food, and then 9 months of long term canned food and freeze dried food bulk)
* enough means of protection (you know what I mean ;) ) (And don't forget reloading as a way to partially meet this long term)
* fuel for vehicles to at least get you out of dodge etc if not longer
* spend money on some land far away from civilization and build a cabin on it if not move your home there now.
* after that you can start to lay up gold, silver, and other value-storing commodities.
My point is that the technology of the past is why gold and jewels were used as money. My point is also that those times have past - are we going to ship a million tons of gold to China every month to pay for the TVs and laundry baskets we use?
Maybe I'm not the one who needs to look up the history of and problems caused by precious metal monetary standards. But I do agree you should carry a spare mag, brother! :cool:
B_C
So things are so dire that we continue international commerce, have Safeways, and are able to transact business as usual, but we are going to have a point in time during that "crisis" scenario where gold carries no value?
Is that about right?
If we have Safeway, it won't be a crisis. It would appear maybe we're talking about different things.
So things are so dire that we continue international commerce, have Safeways, and are able to transact business as usual, but we are going to have a point in time during that "crisis" scenario where gold carries no value?
Is that about right?
If we have Safeway, it won't be a crisis. It would appear maybe we're talking about different things.
He seems to have 2 different (but really the same) points he tries to make.
One, we don't need a Gold Standard as we have electronic technology that makes using Gold for payments bulky and inconvenient.
Two, FRN work great because you can use PayPal to pay for eBay items or use your Visa to pay with FRN at Safeway and using Gold to do so is inconvenient.
What he seems to realize for #1 is that a GOLD BACKED currency has all the advantages he points out technology wise without being a fiat worthless currency only backed by the Good Faith and Credit of the US Govt and for #2 that FRN are worthless when that Good Faith and Credit disappears so putting your wealth into FRN is just dumb. And #1 also applies to #2
ForTehNguyen
03-05-11, 11:34
coming to an America near you:
Gold For Bread - Zimbabwe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubJp6rmUYM)
Guess what Zimbabwe used when their currency tanked?
those against the gold standard out there, define what a dollar is, what does it mean?
coming to an America near you:
Gold For Bread - Zimbabwe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubJp6rmUYM)
Guess what Zimbabwe used when their currency tanked?
those against the gold standard out there, define what a dollar is, what does it mean?
Again, that has nothing in common with the collapse of the US dollar. You're talking about a single country whos economy has out of control inflation. So of course gold still has value, so does the American dollar and South African rand that are openly used in Zimbabwe, apples & oranges. The markets haven't crashed, only the Zimbabwean economy.
Crow Hunter
03-05-11, 12:40
I have quite a few family financil records dating back to the mid 15th century (when my family came to America). At one time we owned most of the Dragon Run Swamp area of Virgina and named it as a way to keep the slaves from running away.
My family wasn't "rich" in the way that most people would view it today but for the times they lived they were well off. No where in any of the documentation I have were ANY transactions conducted in gold or silver. They were in horses, casques of tobacco, and slaves. There are references to certain items being "valued" as worth X number of silver pieces for the purposes of taxes in census records. (ie the value of the estate) but no records of specie transactions. Heck one of my family contributions to the Revolutionary War effort was a "casque of brandy".
This is continued up until the 1930s as the mortgage on the farm in which I grew up on was paid for in bales of cotton as recorded on the payment receipts.
Historically gold and silver were not used as a method of wealth transfer for the vast majority of "everyday" people.
I would imagine that an event that forced us into similar circumstances would result in similar uses for gold/silver/goods.
I would imagine that it will depend on the circumstances involved. If there are roving bands of bandits looting gold won't be worth as much as a good AR-15 and 6 mags but in the same respect the AR won't be worth as much as a shovel for digging a well.
Just like investing.....
Diversify.
I would imagine that an event that forced us into similar circumstances would result in similar uses for gold/silver/goods.
That's very similar to the point I am making. A person who has everything they need, and in great supply, will look to other incentives. It may be gold, it may be some other tangible commodity.
Gold is certainly inconvenient for transacting business like we do today. I believe that if the markets and civility collapses in to a properly "farked" reality, there will be a settling point when the survivors start to normalize again. When they do, there is most likely going to be some sort of need for a store of value, and I doubt the survivors will be keen on FRN's again -- at least at first.
I'm certainly not saying to buy high. I am saying don't count stuff out that you can't possibly know today. If you can buy smart, without a huge opportunity cost, then do so. If not, buy the smarter buy.
rickrock305
03-05-11, 13:35
And buying gold isn't going to protect you from inflation like you think it is. It's called speculating and it's extremely risky. Right now people are treating it as a currency instead of a commodity, and with it comes a large risk.
Once interest starts to climb you'll see gold prices drop.
Here the thing, right now an ounce of gold runs around $300-$500 per ounce to produce. So selling at $1k+ is pretty much a fn bubble being propped up by yahoos thinking gold is a protection against inflation. It's like spending a $2 to get $.75 in return, it just don't make no stinkin sense :P
It's a bubble being inflated by people wanting to buy gold because it's increased in value so much and the pattern repeating itself until we get to the point it's unsustainable and gold prices crash.
Its the simple laws of supply and demand. The market determines the price, not simply what it costs to produce.
It's true that gold (and silver) have always been money throughout recorded history, and we talk about their "intrinsic value".
Even in the past though, it had value because it was recognized as having value by those in power. It's real value still depends greatly on some authority, accepting that it has value. In the past, it was the logical choice, because there was a limited supply and finite amount, and any random party couldn't just turn up and make a whole hell of a lot of it on their own (easily) and suddenly have the most wealth. That makes it controllable, and as with everything to do with wealth and power, it's all about control, who has it, and how to keep it.
It strikes me that gold and silver as a standard is more about maintaining a consistent "conversion factor" between different items. if I have a bunch of hay and you have a bunch of wheat we want to trade, how do we decide on the rates of transfer? Well we say that a bushel of wheat is worth 4 gold whatevers and a bale of hay is worth 2 gold whatevers, so I give you two bales of hay for each bushel of wheat. Neither of us has to have any gold or silver at all, it's just a way to attempt consistent bartering negotiations. And it all still depends on gold and silver having a value that is known or agreed upon, and that is driven by a larger market forces. Without that context in the background, it comes down to how badly we want each other's stuff and our individual perceptions of the value of the items.
Therein lies the rub, though - if it's bad enough that I'm bartering raw resources with others to survive, then I don't think gold or silver (barring the interesting water purification side topic) have much intrinsic value to me. If I have food and you have gold, and my family is hungry, then your gold isn't worth jack to me, because I can't eat it. The only value of the gold is the theoretical ability to trade it for more food later at a hopefully more favorable rate, but once again if the situation has degraded to the point of offering me gold for my food, then the risk/benefit of giving up food in hopes of getting more later isn't really going to play out as the smart option.
And so it all comes back to just how bad "things" get. Gold having true worth remains heavily dependent on a semi-functioning civilization. I think it's a bit contradictory for so many to be talking about who quickly things can get savage when people are desperate, and then putting a great deal of weight on an item that really depends on everyone continuing to deal with each other in a relatively reasoned, civil manner. Outside of trading it to others because they want it, gold has very little use. I can't get much mileage out of eating it, burning it, wearing it, or working with it, or killing people with it. There are much more efficient ways to prepare to do those things.
Now, I don't think there's any real downside to having gold and silver stored back, unless it starts reaching amounts that are unreasonable to transport or defend, or if obtaining the pile of metals has impeded your ability to make other preparations (all things in moderation). It's a worthwhile part of a multi-layered preparation plan to cover all contingencies. Having a safe full of gold coins isn't going to mean much of anything if you don't already have the other resources and supplies in place to support yourself. To me stocking up on gold would come after you already have plans and preps, whatever they may be, addressing shelter, water, food, defense, medicine, fuel, etc...
Not to mention that with the current price of gold, it's extremely cost prohibitive to actually try and have much around. If the state, country, region, or whole world goes to shit tomorrow, would you rather walk into your closet and find $1400 worth of gold, or $1400 worth of food and ammo? Which would keep you alive longer?
There are lots of contingencies that gold and silver can be useful in. MAD MAX is not the only scenario worth looking at.
Just a huge inflationary patch is enough to make it interesting. I'd rather have $50k in gold or silver than $50k in FRN if we go through a batch of inflation, say 30% for 3 years, let alone hyper-inflation (which some pretty smart cookies are foretelling). After that inflation, my spending power with my gold will be relatively untouched (depending on when I bought etc) but your pile of FRN (or binary digits in the bank) will be worth a lot less.
There are lots of other worse scenarios where having a bunch of gold and/or silver is interesting. Obviously not at the expense of more immediate needs of course.
Here the thing, right now an ounce of gold runs around $300-$500 per ounce to produce. So selling at $1k+ is pretty much a fn bubble being propped up by yahoos thinking gold is a protection against inflation. It's like spending a $2 to get $.75 in return, it just don't make no stinkin sense :P
I hope you read this through before you posted this. That markup you claim is not all that different than the markup of any good from manufacturer to retail market.
I wouldn't trade a loaf of bread for all the gold in your pot.
Now, I don't think there's any real downside to having gold and silver stored back, unless it starts reaching amounts that are unreasonable to transport or defend, or if obtaining the pile of metals has impeded your ability to make other preparations (all things in moderation).
A million dollars in gold, bought at $500 an ounce (troy), is a hair under 140 lbs. Three big bags of wheat weight approximately. At todays rates it would be about a third of that.
I wish I had a million dollars in gold right now :)
btw, this was not direct at you LOKNLOD
I wouldn't trade a loaf of bread for all the gold in your pot.
Depends on how many loaves of bread I had.
A million dollars in golf, bought at $500 an ounce (troy), is a hair under 140 lbs. Three big bags of what weight approximately. At todays rates it would be about a third of that.
I wish I had a million dollars in gold right now :)
btw, this was not direct at you LOKNLOD
You make a good point, in so much as if you can actually afford very much gold at all, then you're already rich enough to have hopefully taken care of all the other necessities.
I wish I had a million dollars too, even in plain ol' worthless dollars ;)
I wouldn't trade a loaf of bread for all the gold in your pot.
I would. I just baked a loaf of honey oat bread today in one of those neat bread machines. Anybody want to trade some gold? :D
ForTehNguyen
03-05-11, 20:24
dont worry, youll become a millionaire someday, maybe even a trillionaire. All of us will, it'll be great.
gold/silver are money, when I buy some I dont even view it as spending money, im converting my wealth to different stores of value. I will start getting nickels soon as they are worth 150% of face and rising.
Business_Casual
03-05-11, 21:17
You should read "End The Fed" by Ron Paul. It would answer allot questions that you have about gold.
Thank you, but I don't have "allot" of questions about gold.
B_C
Here is one take on it. Compared to oil and silver, which gold usually trades in tandem with, gold is undervalued according to this guy.
(this is in contrast to another article I posted in my interesting articles topic, I think, that showed that gold is overvalued compared to historical valuations)
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Gold at record highs but it may keep climbing -- The Buzz - Mar. 2, 2011
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/02/markets/thebuzz/
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