View Full Version : A2 grip alignment / gap concerns
Greetings:
I have searched this site and others for issues involving A2 grip alignment and have so far come up empty. The closest topics seem to focus on the trigger guard gap and the resultant blistering of the "social finger" after lengthy outings. I'm not so sure my situation involves this particular gap so I wanted to run this past the experts. Here is my situation:
I ordered a Spikes complete lower through my local shop. Didn't specify any customization...just the standard package. It has the A2 grip which should be fine for my purposes. I am generally satisfied with the choice, but I think the grip is just slightly short of matching up with the back of the trigger guard. My rough measurement puts it approx 1/16 inch off but it creates enough of a lip to be noticeable. Like leaving a "snakebite" mark on the inside on the middle finger.
I sent a quick email with photo back to Spikes. The CEO responded that this was the way the A2 grip was designed but if I switch to a Magpul or Ergo grip it will fill the gap. Must be right...came from the top dog. (Called himself Tom...kinda thought his name would be "Spike" for some reason) I responded with a thanks and let it go. Then I started thinking maybe we aren't talking about the same "gap".
I took a few photos to try to illustrate the point more clearly. It was tough to find the proper camera angle but I think these demonstrate the concern.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_8L6g-ZRpgK8/TXBVi6UfG5I/AAAAAAAALsQ/eBPFcO7tdms/s800/2011-03-02DSC_0008.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_8L6g-ZRpgK8/TXBW_af3kII/AAAAAAAALsM/2Tc6nIY2eTE/s800/2011-03-02DSC_0013.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_8L6g-ZRpgK8/TXE3BAwLjTI/AAAAAAAALvg/ph8hqWV5UJM/s800/Capture.JPG
So that is pretty much the run-up. Now it's on to the questions:
1) Does this alignment seem normal? This is my first AR so I don't have anything to judge by. Every grip photo I have examined on this site seems to NOT have this substantial edge. Wondering if anyone has encountered this and how they remedied it. I can't imagine the lower would be off...but then again it doesn't seem like the grip would be off either. Maybe since the grip is just a $7 part it could be the culprit?
2) Would the $3 "Gapper" plug do me any good here? I am guessing no as I understand that product fills the void right behind the trigger guard and levels out the cavity from underneath. (More visible in the second image) I don't expect it would level off the rear-facing edge against the grip unless it is much larger than it appears online.
3) Would changing to another grip give me better alignment in that problem area? I'm open to using another grip but I'd hate to keep buying grip options that line up the same way and don't fix the problem.
4) Assuming a grip change would work, what lube do you recommend?
Okay that last one is more for comedic effect. I quickly withdraw question #4. This is my first post...but I have read a few things here already. ;)
Thanks in advance for any advice you may have. I have faith that the proper answer will come from here.
Note: Edited to add the third photo with lines drawn. I'm not so much bothered by the edge created along the blue "A" line but more concerned by the red "B" line and specifically the little 1/16th edge or point created by the alignment worry. (Hoping this pic will say a thousands words as they say)
IShootBlanks
03-03-11, 22:15
the gapper might help.. with my ergo/falcon grip its didnt really make a difference either way. i personally love the ergo grip.
you could always consider some sort of diy solution like making your own gapper or using some black rtv...
you may even consider the stark industries grip which covers the entire trigger guard.. here a link... good luck man.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Stark%20SE1-AR-BLK-AA
Everything looks functionally fine, but if you want to do something about it... I bought two ergo gappers and they really help around the rear of the trigger guard.
DaBears_85
03-04-11, 08:34
The gentleman from Spikes is correct, it's completely normal for there to be a gap between the back of the trigger guard and the front of the pistol grip. If you wear shooting gloves it shouldn't affect you any. If you don't, it can leave the side of your 'social finger' feeling rather raw by the end of the day.
My advice? Get either the Magpul MOE Trigger Guard (http://www.skdtac.com/Magpul_MOE_Trigger_Guard_p/mag.129.htm) or the Magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard (http://www.skdtac.com/Magpul_Enhanced_Trigger_Guard_Aluminum_p/mag.104.htm) and be done with it.
J
ETA: The $3 gapper you mentioned above will work as well.
I'm fairly certain I'll order the gapper just to see how it fits. By itself it's only three bucks but I'll probably round off the order with $97 of pmags to take advantage of some free shipping deal.
The gapper is clearly something to try but I'm leaning more toward the swap out of the trigger guard as you suggest and possibly moving to a miad grip so I can store a spare bolt in the handle.
I like the concept of the other grip on the bcm site. I don't think I've noticed that one in the photos I've perused.
(go bears)
DaBears_85
03-04-11, 10:28
I'm fairly certain I'll order the gapper just to see how it fits. By itself it's only three bucks but I'll probably round off the order with $97 of pmags to take advantage of some free shipping deal.
The gapper is clearly something to try but I'm leaning more toward the swap out of the trigger guard as you suggest and possibly moving to a miad grip so I can store a spare bolt in the handle.
Yeah, might as well give the gapper a try. It's not like it's gonna brake the bank or anything. :)
By the way, since you live in Illinois you should check out SKD Tactical (http://www.skdtac.com/Default.asp?Redirected=Y). They're located in the St. Louis area so their delivery times are insanely fast. They also have a same day shipping guarantee along with a flat $5 shipping charge. On average, I get my orders in from them in two days, three at the most. Needless to say, I'm completely addicted to the place.
I like the concept of the other grip on the bcm site. I don't think I've noticed that one in the photos I've perused.
I assume you're referring to the Stark SE-1 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Stark-SE-1-Pistol-Grip-Black-AA-p/stark%20se1-ar-blk-aa.htm)? I don't have any experience with it, but I've heard good things from others on this site about it. It looks as though the TangoDown BattleGrip (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/TangoDown-BattleGrip-Black-p/td%20bg-16%20black.htm) covers the gap as well.
J
I would recommend the Magpul MOE trigger / MOE grip combo. I think you will be pleased.
caelumatra
03-04-11, 12:16
I like the Tango down more than the MOE.
http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/TDBG-16BLK.aspx
The MOE shape just doesn't suit my hand like the Tango down. I'd like the try the starks at some point though.
Belmont31R
03-04-11, 13:22
Have you tried a different grip to see if that one is just a bit "short" creating that little lip?
I would get a Colt A2 grip from Brownells if you want to stick with the A2. Every other A2 Ive tried has the feel of cheap plastic. Even the DD one feels like slick fiberglass almost. The Colt grip has a smoother rubbery feel to it.
I would not buy a Colt grip anywhere else but a Colt dealer because half the time people send you copies...even on here.
Otherwise the MOE is a good grip that fills the hand a little better.
If its not the grip thats causing this the gapper isn't going to fit that lip.
I have not tried another grip yet since I have not had sufficient time to accumulate a supply of extra parts...yet. The A2 does seem a bit small for my hand so I was contemplating something with a backstrap that can be tweaked.
I did pull the a2 off just to see if it was not attached properly but that wasn't the case. It fits nicely at every seem except the bottom.
I appreciate the feedback on the possible alternatives and it will give me something to ponder I'm just a little dismayed that I should have to resort to swapping out a brand new part on my first lower. Seems like the basic a2 should fit better.
CHRIST! They sure put those trigger guard roll pin holes high on the receiver tabs! :eek:
And that 1/16" high sitting grip does look a little excessive.
The combination of those two issues... I would not want to shoot a day long class with that digging in my hand. I have some lowers where the role pin holes are down where the trigger guard is flush. They are so much more comfortable for day long use.
I would definitely suggest a gapper. I found two in a bag of misc parts a guy gave me... and they seem to help on some of my guns with high trigger guard holes.
Belmont31R
03-10-11, 15:22
That whole area seems "off".
that lower is out of spec.. i'd be sending it back. as markm said, that would be totally uncool to shoot for longer than about 10 minutes. i seriously doubt a gapper will help- i think it'll just suck up in the gap too much, and those wings will still hang low.. possibly the same thing with a miad/trigger guard insert, and i don't think you could even get a tango down battlegrip to seat correctly.
That whole area seems "off".
Although it's not exactly what I wanted to deal with, at least someone sees the same thing and I'm not just being picky or going crazy.
Update: a member here was gracious enough to PM me and send along a surplus Colt A2 that wasn't being used. I took that Colt A2 and lined it up with whatever brand was on my lower. The eyeball test said they looked pretty close to the same size. When I installed the Colt brand however, it did come much closer to aligning with those pointy ears and the feel was dramatically improved. The edge was not noticeable.
I will also agree with the earlier post that said the Colt grips feel better and are softer while some others have a cheap plastic feel. True statement. I think this switch alone will make it much more comfortable.
The last post about the lower being out of spec really bummed me out so I had to do a few more measurements. I put a caliper on the original grip from the top to where the middle finger would rest. I came up with 1.25" on the spikes. I pulled of the Colt and it measured in at 1.29" which at least confirmed my impression that it did fit better. Not quite the 1/16th I originally said but close. Finally I measured the lower from the recess line to the tip of the ear. It was around 1.30" if I addressed the curve properly. (Not an engineer by trade) So the Colt seemed much better indeed.
The nagging question still is....What SHOULD the measurement actually be from the top of the grip to the ears on the trigger guard? Clearly something didn't measure up right but I don't really know which part is out of spec. Either/both grips or the lower?
Does anyone have the spec on that dimension? I couldn't find a reasonable source that gave me that detailed of an answer. This would be "Line B" in my crappy drawing in the third photo.
Ship that unholy beast whence it came.
Czecher, this is an interesting topic - I've glanced at a few pictures of other Spikes lowers and see similarities to your issue. Many have the roll pin holes so high on the receiver tabs that it weakens the holes. This is an issue on my S&W lower as well while my ArmaLite has those holes centered much better, adding strength and allowing the trigger guard plate to fit lower/more properly. I had never noticed this before but do not think it is a serious issue in such a non-stress area.
But your original A2 grip definitely leaves a noticable gap between the trigger guard and grip, more so than others - now that I know what to look for.
It seems that the receiver tabs are about 1/16" too long, if they were shorter the roll pin holes would be centered better and you wouldn't have the mismatch at the grip.
I'd definitely send pictures to Spikes, along with a link to this thread and see what they say about it. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Just get a Stark grip and it'll cover all the problems, literally. :D
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb4/hdcharlie1/Stark_SE1_03_400x400.jpg
CHRIST! They sure put those trigger guard roll pin holes high on the receiver tabs! :eek:
Damn! Those are waaaay off. I can't believe one or both didn't crack when the roll pin was installed.
Did you send the photos to Spikes? I would hope they hook you up with a replacement.
Ship that unholy beast whence it came.
This could have the makings of bad Stephen King book..."The Possessed Black Rifle...Evil lurks in your gun safe!" :D
Seriously though I'll be keeping my options open here and the return is the least palatable but may be necessary. I have a few more things to try although I'm not unhappy with the latest Colt grip.
I am also keeping notes on the different grip options being recommended and I do appreciate those ideas. I'd like to physically hold a few of those to see how they feel before buying an assortment of grips online that may not improve my overall mood. I need to find a decent store around here or get some friends that share my hobbies.
I also did include a photo along with my email to Spikes but I'm not convinced they really took the time to examine it or think about what I was asking. I believe they saw the word "gap" and immediately came back with "Yeah AR's all have a gap there...deal with it or get Magpul grip". That gap really isn't the problem.
The thread below talks about the gap and there are some excellent shots on page 3 of what seems to be a perfectly aligned A2 without the ears running past the grip.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=41902&page=3
I took a few more pix to illustrate my math:
Here is the original grip that came from Spikes...It about 1.24" on the dial.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_8L6g-ZRpgK8/TXrxKQ5Y-JI/AAAAAAAAL7I/0VLyQ7KSqnY/s640/2011-03-11DSC_0005.JPG
Now here is the Colt replacement grip...It is 1.29". A bit longer. Comes much closer to covering the ear points.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_8L6g-ZRpgK8/TXrpYpGgznI/AAAAAAAAL7M/2ziCMBYuZ_o/s640/2011-03-11DSC_0006.JPG
And here is how I measured the space where the grip sits. I came up with 1.30". I did my best to miss the curved corner on the lower and catch the tip of the trigger guard "ear"
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_8L6g-ZRpgK8/TXrxeYPPorI/AAAAAAAAL8E/lF3ItA1xomo/s640/2011-03-11DSC_0007.JPG
That measurement right there is what I could use some help with. Can anyone give me a hint on what that distance should be from the lip on the lower to the ear? I no luck searching for exact spec like that. Not even sure if that info is published.
Finally here is the Colt grip installed.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_8L6g-ZRpgK8/TXr30rjyHcI/AAAAAAAAL7g/QvvOXCtNOCw/s640/2011-03-11DSC_0011.JPG
Much better than the photo at the top of this thread but still .01" off per my math above. I can live with that for now.
Now you guys have me looking at those roll pin holes. That wasn't even a concern at first but that's how evil works I suppose.
If someone else can confirm any of those measurements I made it will at least tell me which part is out of spec. Of course I'm hoping it's the grip!
Thanks again
KrampusArms
03-12-11, 03:01
With all due respect to you OP and all here......But am I the only freaking one here amazed by the total OCD? Your receiver is perfectly fine! Jesus H Christ on a jumped up chariot driven crutch! Does the gun function normally? I had a look at my CMMG lower and it looks exactly like yours. The roll pin holes are exactly as yours, even the gap. I wouldn't worry about it.
With all due respect to you OP and all here......But am I the only freaking one here amazed by the total OCD? Your receiver is perfectly fine! Jesus H Christ on a jumped up chariot driven crutch! Does the gun function normally? I had a look at my CMMG lower and it looks exactly like yours. The roll pin holes are exactly as yours, even the gap. I wouldn't worry about it.
funny how your receiver being an out of spec piece of shit makes his not.
you obviously haven't had your weapon in hand for long periods of time. that receiver is likely to injure him, and that hole placement is retarded.
KrampusArms
03-12-11, 03:45
funny how your receiver being an out of spec piece of shit makes his not.
you obviously haven't had your weapon in hand for long periods of time. that receiver is likely to injure him, and that hole placement is retarded.
Holy crap I've been laced up! I was uncouth. Apologies to the OP. I have had my rifle in hand for long durations but it never bothered me. My roll pin holes are PRECISELY where the OP are located. I am aware my sample of one is by no means an accurate example to speak for all, and I am not an expert. I'll remember not to put my damn foot in my mouth next time. Do Spikes and CMMG utilize the same forged lowers? I believe CMMG lowers come from "LAR" if I recall. Maybe we both acquired the same out of spec "BATCH"?
The issue is with the finishing. The holes were drilled too high. This is a perfect example of why a lower from the same forge is does not make the finished product equal.
Apologies to the OP...... Do Spikes and CMMG utilize the same forged lowers?
No offense taken. The function is fine and the grip switch has dramatically improved the issue. At this point it is just a nagging question as to what went wrong and what the "specs" should be for this lower. I suppose its a thin line between the quest for knowledge and OCD. I'd rather talk about this than listen to whatever Charlie Sheen has going on today.
As for the manufacturer, I was under the impression that Spikes now gets parts from someone named "API". (An awesome phrase to google btw. You'll get like 12 trillion hits:rolleyes:) Not sure how accurate that is.
Just to reiterate main topic: If there were no roll pin holes drilled at all and no bottom trigger guard installed...the back edge of that guard would still not align with the original grip regardless of the hole placement. The hole placement just creates a more pronounced edge underneath where the more widely discussed "gap" exists.
I am starting understand how they take a chunk of metal of turn it into a finished product. It seems there are different methods and outcomes. Something to remember for my next purchase.
If anyone has a stripped lower laying around I'd be curious about that measurement of the back line of the trigger guard. That seems to be the key to how any grip would fit here.
Thx to all.
AnimalMother556
03-12-11, 09:36
Honestly, I'd just run it and see how it goes. I like the TangoDown BG-17 (http://tangodown.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=134) as it has a nice curve to it and has a small shelf that will cover the problem area on that particular lower anyhow. The Magpul MIAD is nice as you can choose what feels best for you but won't do much about the gap. If you order any more parts anytime soon, order a gapper for like 3 bucks and see where that leaves you.
I had the same issue with my BCM lower...
I did not take any "before" pics as it was not that big of an issue to me. I removed the A2 grip and filed a slight radius on the exposed corners and later on I ditched the A2 and went with a TangoDown grip.
The pin holes do seem to be out of place but not a real issue as I have no plans to swap out the trigger guard.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/AMMOTECH/STA72829.jpg
After:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/AMMOTECH/STA72914.jpg
Here is a look at the holes on my BM (DOM 1998) .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/AMMOTECH/STA72724.jpg
As seen on an FN lower: (not mine)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/AMMOTECH/IMG_0727.jpg
.
Here's a picture of my two year old S&W lower with the same issue of a roll pin hole drilled too high. My ArmaLite lower has the hole almost 1/16" lower and centered perfectly. Both were bought as stripped lowers, BTW.
I never noticed this before and will say this has never presented a problem but no doubt it is a weak design. Looking at it closely I can't see any indication that use has made it worse. Thanks for this thread Czecher, I now know to keep an eye on it.
As far as your pistol grip issue it looks like you've got that under control with the Colt grip. Eyeing mine there's a skosh difference that I can't feel when shooting.
http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz211/Quentin68/DSCN0879close.jpg
http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz211/Quentin68/DSCN0867aclose.jpg
Quiet-Matt
03-12-11, 10:49
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_5kA3JwNkBxc/TXug12UtNTI/AAAAAAAAHok/aU9L8sWyuBQ/s800/DSC01859.JPG
I doubt that the gapper or the MagPul guard will do much good in th OP's situation. The tabs hang too low, and the holes are too high. That lower is outa spec and needs to be replaced. Sell it to me for cheap and I'll fix it with the files and some krylon.;)
I had the same issue with my BCM lower....
Thx for sharing the pix. I was a bit surprised to see that brand roped into this topic . Did I read your post correctly in that you rounded off those sharp points a bit? I wasn't really thinking about going there but I suppose it is an option.
I suppose if a person prioritized the components of this firearm from most important to least...this would be right close to the bottom. It just goes into the non-critical, comfort aspects.
The bushy actually looks pretty good!
Not to de-rail my own thread but I have the same Aimpoint setup and think its groovy. I still have to get front sling mount like you for my DD rail. Something add to my Gapper purchase!
That lower is outa spec and needs to be replaced. Sell it to me for cheap and I'll fix it with the files and some krylon.;)
If I can squeeze a few more replies outta this crazy thread I might qualify to post stuff in the EE section:D Honestly though, I most likely will not sell it but I am hearing the recurring advice of "send it back" and that is something I must weigh. Part of me is downplaying the "out-of-spec" issue as insignificant while the other part is saying "listen to these guys..they are much smarter and more experienced than you".
Thx for all the other photos as well. It is informative. I also like the fanned-out deck of cards photo. I need more gear to do something like that!
Ahhh the joys of being new!
CZ
I personally don't see that it's bad enough to send back. :confused:
I personally don't see that it's bad enough to send back. :confused:
Me too...but then again I'm not too bright which is why I value the opinions of the elders here. I'm also fairly lazy so the process of returning something like this just doesn't sound like much fun. This isn't like returning the wrong sized pair of pants.:no:
AnimalMother556
03-12-11, 14:06
I really don't see it as an issue either. Put it underneath a complete upper and shoot it.
I really don't see it as an issue either.
Noted...and thx again for the help. Check your mail.;)
CZ
I really don't see it as an issue either.
It's an irritation... not a major issue. I have some lowers with the trigger guard high in the tabs. They only really suck in classes.
Cagemonkey
03-13-11, 12:31
I had the same issue with my BCM lower...
I did not take any "before" pics as it was not that big of an issue to me. I removed the A2 grip and filed a slight radius on the exposed corners and later on I ditched the A2 and went with a TangoDown grip.
The pin holes do seem to be out of place but not a real issue as I have no plans to swap out the trigger guard.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/AMMOTECH/STA72829.jpg
After:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/AMMOTECH/STA72914.jpg
Here is a look at the holes on my BM (DOM 1998) .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/AMMOTECH/STA72724.jpg
As seen on an FN lower: (not mine)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/AMMOTECH/IMG_0727.jpg
.That FN lower is awesome. I had no idea they made a semi only lower. Where does one get one of these?
Here's an AGP lower. Unlike good old SPIKES... this one is perfect.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/CIMG3684.jpg?t=1300039794
An Undocumented Worker
03-13-11, 17:48
Even my DSA blem lower doesn't have that issue. Although the mag catch was a bit tight at first.
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