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K.L. Davis
08-09-06, 21:53
I guess if I post the first part of this, I will be more inclined to finish it. Lots still left to do... but for now, here is a start.

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Barrels of fun…

I wanted to put together a single reference that addressed the most common questions about barrels – naturally, this thing could go on for pages and pages, but I want to try to keep it reasonable and hopefully take care of the 90% or so of the more frequent questions.

First off, there are essentially two types of barrels (imho): Match Grade and Batch Grade. Which one you want is of course dependant on what you want to do… all too often the standard of a rifle is immediately judged by its group size – “What sorta groups are you getting with that?” is almost always one of the first questions asked of the owner of any new rifle.

Truth is, we have had little more to go by and the gun magazines have used group size as a standard of reporting for years – without that data, most articles would be rather boring:

“I spent three hours at the range with the new Twundelated Arms UbberShuter 150. I shot it mostly at mound of dirt about 35 yards away, and then shot a few old cans lying around, accuracy was great! I could even hit the tiny Red Bull cans with no problem.”

But gun rags don’t really print the bad news…

Nearly all the AR rifles in existence are capable of “practical accuracy” for a carbine, defense, battle, plinker type rifle – that is that nearly any barrel is capable of hitting a 8” target at the functional limit of the sighting system… even using my patented side leaning, semi-fetal, three and half point, one leg akimbo, you can’t see most of me shooting position.

On the other hand, the AR platform is well known for its accuracy potential and if the goal is to build as accurate of a rifle as possible, then by all means start there and shop for exactly that, the most accurate, repeatable barrel you can get/afford. But for most of us, the list of priorities is probably more like (a) Service Life, (b) Corrosion Resistance (c) Fine Tuned Accuracy Potential.

Hopefully, by taking a look at how a barrel is constructed, how it works and what some of the possible choices are, you will be at least a little more comfortable with defining what you need.

The functions a barrel performs

In most cases, the barrel and chamber of a rifle are one piece, so we will operate with that assumption throughout this. Working from the chamber end, the barrel obviously supports the cartridge in the chamber. Directly in front of the chamber is the throat, which supports the bullet as it starts its travel and guides it into the rifling – think of it as a funnel between the chamber and the bore. This is a very key part of the potential accuracy of the rifle... if the bullet is "set" in the bore slightly crooked, it will stay that way in flight and degrade accuracy -- a barrel really wears out in this throat area, even after the throat is "shot out", the bore and rifling just a few inches in front of the bore is usually still in great shape.

The rifling simply starts the bullet twisting or spinning… the Rate of Twist (RoT) is given as a ratio of how far the bullet must travel to spin on full revolution (360 degrees), this is normally written as 1:7 or 1/7 or One in Seven – simply meaning that the rifling makes one full turn in every seven inches of barrel.

Most of the work of the rifling is done within the first few inches… maximum chamber pressure occurs within this same length of barrel as well, and from there on the barrel simply contains the pressure and allows the bullet to accelerate faster and faster. Naturally, a longer barrel produces a faster muzzle velocity; however, there is a point of diminishing return. A barrel can be too long, the pressures start to fall as the bullet moves further down the bore and there is a tipping point where the bullet will actually start to slow down before it leaves the barrel. For the AR platform, you probably would not want to pack around a rifle with that long of a barrel through.

Conversely, shorter barrels have lower muzzle velocities… again on the AR/5.56 rifles; it seems that as barrels are reduced below 16 to 18 inches, the velocities start to fall off exponentially. This is highly dependant on ammo selection however, but is a good rule of thumb.

In the gas operated rifle, there is a port somewhere along the bore that bleeds off high pressure gas to operate the rifle – the location and details of this port is topic for another conversation, but on the AR they are normally located 7.5, 9.5 or 13 inches from the chamber, for a Carbine, Mid-Length and Rifle gas system respectively.

At the very end of the barrel, where the bullet leaves the muzzle, is the crown area… this end of the barrel must be as close to perfectly square as possible and free of nicks or burrs. If it is damaged or crooked, the gas pressure from the muzzle blast will bleed off on one side of the bullet first and disrupt its stability – not at all good for accuracy.

Makeing the barrel

We are about to enter into a strange land of voodoo, secrets, pride and ego... the debate over which of these techniques (or even how to apply the technique) has raged on for years -- and will outlive any of us. The truth is, all of the below listed techniques work just fine for barrels for the AR... so we will dash through this rather quickly, keep your arms fully inside the cart throughout the ride and do not stop to talk to strangers...

First thing is making the barrel blank, a round piece of metal with a rifled hole running through it… there are only a handful of companies in the U.S. that actually drill barrel blanks – from there, these blanks are sometimes finished in house, or sold to outside shops that cut the chamber, length and profile of the barrel. Drilling a hole deep (long) enough to make it through a 20 plus inch piece of stock is beyond the abilities of many shops – if fact, the equipment used for this task is called a “gun drill”, as outside of a firearms barrel, there is not a whole lot of need for a hole as small, long and straight as a rifle bore.

If you have ever drilled a hole several inches in any material, you know that the drill will tend to wonder off… so the shops that make the initial hole in the barrel blanks know their game well – however, the drill will walk a little, even under the best effort of the shop. This is actually one way that shops grade the blanks, by how far the hole is off center when it exits the blank… After drilling, the hole is reamed using basically the same process as the drilling.

After drilling and reaming, the blank is rifled and may be rough shaped. Whether the blank is shaped now or fully profiled by the shop that cuts and chambers it, the biggest concern is that the barrel is profiled to the new center bore – the hole that was drilled, not the physical center of the blank… this ensures that the bore is centered in the finished barrel, with the same amount of material all the way around. As obvious as that sounds, I have seen barrels that were simply chucked and turned down… you could actually look at the muzzle and see that the bore was not in the center of the barrel.

Now the blank is rifled… The rifling is most often a traditional rifling cut, one with lands and grooves. Current wisdom holds that a barrel should have an odd number of lands and groves; this prevent two lands, or high spots, from squeezing the bullet directly across (180 degrees) from each other – which would deform the bullet more than if a land is directly across from a groove.

Rifling is cut or formed in the barrel by one of a few common ways: the most common are Button Rifling, Broach Cut and Single Point – which of these is better is an ongoing debate that is well outside of the scope of what we are talking about here however.

Button Rifling - One of the most common methods, button rifling uses a hardened steel "button" that has the inverse rifling pattern in it... this button is pushed or pulled through the barrel blank and the rifling is essentially "ironed" into the insode of the bore. Button rifling is quick and can make a very nice finish -- the most noted pitfall to the method is that the button creates radial stress in the blank... the barrel must be properly stressed relieved before it is turned down, or the diameter of the bore can expand slightly.

Rifling Button
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/5282/riflebuttonwm8.jpg

Broach Cut - A broach is a long rod with star shaped cutting teeth on it that match the rifling pattern... this is forced throug the barrel and the teeth shave away metal, cutting the rifling into the bore. Broach cutting does not stress the barrel as much as button rifling, but in some cases can leave a slightly rougher surface.

Rifling Broach
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1046/gangbroachxw7.jpg

Single Point - This is another cutting technique, in which each groove is cut one-at-a-time. Single point is obviously one of the more labor intensive methods, but can be very accurate.

Other methods of making the rifling include Hammer Forging and Chemical Etching... Chemical Etching is popular with pistol barrels, but is not used much on AR barrels -- the only application I have seen use it are barrels that are made from materials that are too hard to rifle using other techniques. Very simply, the rifling is etched in by a anode/cathode or acid etch process.

Hammer Forging - Hammer forged barrels are really very good barrels... a hard steel die, with the reverse rifling pattern in it, is placed in the drilled and reamed bore, then a machine that is best described as *big and noisey* literally hammers the barrel's outside surface, forcing the metal into the rifling pattern of the die.

Types of Rifling - Most AR rifles will have "conventional" rifling, there are some barrels that use what is usually called radiused or polygonal rifling as well.

The most common (conventional) rifling consist of the familar square cut lands and grooves, looking down the bore you can make out the sharp edged, flat top of the lands (high part) and the bottom of the grooves (low part).

Conventional Rifling
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/9793/normalriflingch3.jpg

A more and more popular rifling that uses somewhat conventional lands and grooves, but with the radiused corners, is called Radius or Polygonal rifling. Looking down the bore, it looks rather like conventional riling... but under close inspection, one can see that the normally square corners are rounded and smooth.

Radius Rifling
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7343/radiusyc0.jpg

There is a variation of conventional rifling that is sometimes used... it involves canting or tapering one of the edges between the lands and grooves. Normally called ratchet, canted or C-Cut rifling, it is designed to reduce spin drift and is something that very few AR shooters will need to bother with -- but you may see it on high end barrels designed for superior accuracy.

Ratchet Rifling
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7087/ratchetriflemo4.jpg


Choices of Material

About 99% of barrels are made up of one a few different types of steel alloy -- of these, the choice is pretty much between Chrome-Moly steel and Stainless Steel.

Chrome-Moly - This name is used to describe a broad family of steels, the most common in use for the AR are 4140 and 4150... the 41xx indicates the AISI-SAE numbering for Chromium-Molybdenum alloy (ergo the name Chrome-Moly), these steels are alloyed with about 0.50% to 0.95% Chromium and 0.12% to 0.30% Molybdenum. The second part of the number indicates that percentage of Carbon (in tenths of a percent). Therefor 4140 is about 0.40% Carbon and 4150 about 0.50% -- the extra carbon in 4150 makes the steel a little tougher and it resists heat better... but it is harder to work and machine.

4150 is one of the "MilSpec" steels... another that is used in a lot of military barrels is CMV (Chrome-Moly-Vanadium) -- as the name implies, this is a chrome-moly steel (very close to 4150) with the addition of about 0.20% to 0.30% of Vanadium. CMV is reported to perform better under high heat.

Carbon steel barrels (chrome-moly) are the bread and butter of barrel materials for the AR, chrome-moly has made great barrels for many years and will continue to do so for many more. The only real downside to carbon steels is that they are prone to rust and corrosion problems.

Stainless Steels - We all know stainless steel, very high levels of chromium and nickel make these steels very resisitant to rust and corrosion, they are used in nearly every type of manufacturing around... the most common choices of stainless for a barrel are 410 and 416. There are a few "families" of stainless steel, but all of that is really academic to the discussion -- but 410 and 416 are Martensitic steels... simply they have lower percentages of chromium than other types of stainless steel.

The most common stainless in use for AR barrels is 416, this steel is plentiful, not expensive and machines nearly as well as the carbon steels -- 416 is rather strong, and has decent corrosion resistance; however, it is one of the least corrosion resistant of the stainless steels. Another choice barrel makers offer is 410, it is a little tougher and more corrosion resistant, but is harder to machine.

Grade 630 stainless, often called 17-4PH, is a great steel that offers excellent corrosion resistance and hardness. 630 is tough, but machinable, and tempers well. It is a precipitation hardened (PH) or age hardened steel and does not distort significantly during the hardening process; however, one consideration for the use of 630 is that the steel manufacturers do not recommend using it for applications that will expose it to cycling temperatures above 700 (f) -- In some cases this is not an issue, however in an AR that may see "heavy fire", 630 (17-4PH) is not a great choice.

So which is better, CM or SS? Again, this depends on what you want/need... a few things that seem to hold true about the two are that: CM barrels may take a little longer to break in and can be more prone to copper fouling; Due to the way the metal erodes in the throat area, the acuracy of CM barrels tends to degrade at a more steady rate, where SS tends to fall off quickly towards the end of its life; The throat area of CM barrels can work harden, this makes recutting the chamber and "bumping" the barrel back difficult -- but AR barrels can not be bumped back anyway (due to the gas port); SS barrels tend to be more prone to scratching but naturally is better at resisting corrosion (over an unplated CM bore); Many barrel manufacturers do not recommend using SS in sub-zero cold; Either SS or CM is capable of the same accuracy and will have about the same service life.

Bore Platings

Without question, the most common bore plating is Hard Chrome (HC)... it has been a requirement on military rifle barrles for decades. HC plated barrels are often refered to simply as "chrome" barrels and easy to confuse with the name Chrome-Moly; keep in mind that a Chrome-Moly steel barrel may or may not be chrome lined, the two are not mutually inclusive.

The purpose for HC plating is simply corrosion prevention, a chrome lined barrel is very easy to maintain, clean and is very resistant to rust and corrosion; however, this is not to say that they will not rust if neglected. The HC plating can be applied to just the bore, or the bore and the chamber both -- the complete bore and chamber plating is the most common, and the most desirable. The byproduct of HC plating is that it gives the bore a very hard surface and enhances barrel life.

HC plating has a bit of a bad reputation, many say that it degrades accuracy... the issue is that the plating is only as good as the shop that does it and it can do more harm than good, if not properly applied -- With today's hightech plating systems, it is quite possible to get a HC lined barrel that is every bit as accurate as non-plated barrel, but this may still be the exception, rather than the rule.

There are other "exotic" platings that have been used in AR barrels, some of these include: Nickel Boron (NiB), Melanite, Nye-Carb and others. Results have been mixed in real world use however and so far none of these has complete enamoured the firearms industry.

Chambering and Finishing - In Progress

Summation

So... after all of that, what barrel do you need? At the start, I talked about Batch v. Match and what the intended use of the rifle is. To this end, we talked about defining the priorities which are pretty much one of three groups... but first let me say this, there is no hard and fast rule about any of this -- if there was, there would not be the choices of barrels that are out there. Records are made and held with barrels that are made from chrome-moly and stainless, as well as rifled with any of the above mentioned techniques -- in far too many cases, the rifle is mechanically capable of accuracy far above what the shooter is; to steal a perfect line "it is the singer, not the song."

Anyway, first define what you need... keeping in mind the three things I mentioned at the start: (a) Service Life, (b) Corrosion Resistance (c) Fine Tuned Accuracy Potential, we will show these listed in priority.


Accuracy, I want the most accuracy potential possible (C,A,B) - Pick a premium barrel, but be ready to pay a premium price. You are most likely to end up with a stainless or non-plated chrome-moly barrel; expect radiused or ratchet rifling; a match grade chamber; and great attention to detail in the selection of the steel, machine work, lapping and finishing. This type of barrel is the most suseptable to damage from neglect or mistreatment and will have the shortest "service" life -- but keep in mind the original expectations. ======= THERE IS MORE TO FOLLOW =============

but I am lazy

Cold
08-09-06, 23:57
Man, this site really is chock full of goodies, and every post by you guys is gold, that and I dont need to scroll down through a ton of "tags, +1's or other nonsence" before I get to more great info!

KL keep up the good work!

JLM
08-13-06, 01:12
.

Good stuff, KL

stiles
08-13-06, 13:01
Deep hole/gun drilling is a different animal than a normal twist drill. In deep hole drilling the drill does not turn instead you turn the work, but push the drill. The drill is pushed though a chip box which has a drill diameter pilot that buts up against the work to be drilled. You would never center drill for a gun drilling operation because you have a pilot at the entry to the work surface so the drill can't walk on entry and the drill tip geometry has an offset point (I'm talking about a single flute through tool coolant type of a gun drill which is typical for the hole diameters used in barrels). The coolant is pumped though the drill and out the cutting face which carries the chips around to the flute and then down the flute till it gets to the cutting box and then ejects the chips and coolant though the bottom of the chip box. The process is very accurate and it's pretty common to hold .0002” TIR over the length of a barrel as long as the work is indicated in dead nuts and is balanced.

Gun drilling isn't quite as rare as your making it sound but it's not a typical job shop operation either. Every custom barrel maker that I know of does in house drilling and reaming.

Barrels that are less than straight usually show up after profiling because residual stress is relieved in the turning/profiling process and you end up with a banana between the centers of your lathe. Stress relieving is that important in barrel making.

K.L. Davis
08-13-06, 22:51
Well, I was trying to keep it simple ;)

You are correct, a "deep hole" -- let's say five times the diameter or more deep -- is not accomplished with what many would recognize as a twist drill, and many shops do have the technology to do these holes to a point.

I have found though, that some shops do as much work with a pad of purchase orders, as they do a lathe...

I have some pictures to add to the post, I have to dig around in a few boxes to see if I can find some of the Sterling goodies, but I hope to make things clearer with some pictures of this and that.

Also, older gun drills held the drill and turned the stock, but a lot of newer machines turn the drill -- some even turn both. A lot of barrel makers ended up making their own drill and reaming machines, but I guess that the real limiting factor is the ability to rifle the barrel... not a lot of P&W machines laying around, more than a few folks have made their own machines, and I dont know of a GT machine in use right now -- Pac-Nor had one up until a few years back, but I hear it died :(

Again, there are different camps even for this... some say turn the drill, some say turn the stock... there are arguments for both, but I prefer to stay away from the particulars in this post and make it a real general "barrel primer" -- lest I open all sorts of debates about all of the voodoo that goes into this stuff! You know... push the button? No pull the button! No, push the button!

I will talk about stress relieving more in the post... and straightening and all of that -- very important indeed.

Do you mean 0.0002 in/in perhaps? That is more in line with the standard for deep hole drilling... it seems you are in the industry, shoot me an IM if you know where there is a rotary hammer machine that needs some use :D


Deep hole/gun drilling is a different animal than a normal twist drill. In deep hole drilling the drill does not turn instead you turn the work, but push the drill. The drill is pushed though a chip box which has a drill diameter pilot that buts up against the work to be drilled. You would never center drill for a gun drilling operation because you have a pilot at the entry to the work surface so the drill can't walk on entry and the drill tip geometry has an offset point (I'm talking about a single flute through tool coolant type of a gun drill which is typical for the hole diameters used in barrels). The coolant is pumped though the drill and out the cutting face which carries the chips around to the flute and then down the flute till it gets to the cutting box and then ejects the chips and coolant though the bottom of the chip box. The process is very accurate and it's pretty common to hold .0002” TIR over the length of a barrel as long as the work is indicated in dead nuts and is balanced.

Gun drilling isn't quite as rare as your making it sound but it's not a typical job shop operation either. Every custom barrel maker that I know of does in house drilling and reaming.

Barrels that are less than straight usually show up after profiling because residual stress is relieved in the turning/profiling process and you end up with a banana between the centers of your lathe. Stress relieving is that important in barrel making.

C4IGrant
08-14-06, 08:09
Excellent post KL. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.



C4

JLM
08-16-06, 17:21
KL, what kinds of temperatures can barrel's be subjected to during sustained FA fire?

K.L. Davis
08-16-06, 18:41
KL, what kinds of temperatures can barrel's be subjected to during sustained FA fire?

That's sort of an open question... how hot can they get? should they get? I have seen barrels fail and blow the side out due to overheating -- but that was FPF from an M2 (not pretty to be close to btw!)

As you can imagine, none of use were really curious about the temperature of the barrel at that point.

To better answer your question though... if you have ever fired a rifle to the point that there was a faint glow of red from the barrel -- you know, you peek through a handguard hole and think "hey look at this... is that glowing red?" Well, at that point you are just at or slightly over 900 degrees (f).

JLM
08-16-06, 19:30
In the grand scheme of things, which steels hold up to heat the best would you say?

J

Someone should tack this one I think :D

K.L. Davis
08-16-06, 20:16
In the grand scheme of things, which steels hold up to heat the best would you say?

J

Someone should tack this one I think :D

Inconel :p

seems that 4150/CMV is hard to beat for the platform...

Hardgear, LLC
08-16-06, 21:19
Are all calibers "bored/drilled" as a single pass operation? Seems some of the larger calibers require a lot of material removal which would lead to some issues.

Can you expand on how the chips are removed during the actual machining?

I have a lot of questions but will contain myself.

Thanks for the post.


Bomber

K.L. Davis
08-16-06, 22:42
Are all calibers "bored/drilled" as a single pass operation? Seems some of the larger calibers require a lot of material removal which would lead to some issues.

Can you expand on how the chips are removed during the actual machining?

I have a lot of questions but will contain myself.

Thanks for the post.


Bomber

In all of what I know, it is a single pass for each step; the drilling, reaming and sometimes honing. The drills are pretty unique... if you take a look at this site (http://www.sterlinggundrills.com/) you will get a better idea of how the drills work...

The drills have high pressure lube/cooling fluid injected that flushes the material out -- the most common inject the fluid down the center of the drill and material is evacuated down a deep "V" groove that runs the length of the shank... some drills evacuate down the center, and force the fluid in from around the outside.

bigbore
08-16-06, 23:22
When are you going to discuss barrel life? It would be nice if you explained how barrels burn out at the throat regardless of the rifling, which kills accuracy at longer ranges. The barrel with 7K rounds that shoots 4 MOA at 500yds, may still shoot 1 MOA at 100yds.
100 yards is farther than a lot of people think.

A good barrel is a good barrel, and if used for something other than achieving the highest X count, the point of diminishing returns is something too many folks choose to ignore.

I don’t know, my glasses are yellow.

Nitrox
08-16-06, 23:32
What color is your mustache?

K.L. Davis
08-17-06, 13:51
When are you going to discuss barrel life? It would be nice if you explained how barrels burn out at the throat regardless of the rifling, which kills accuracy at longer ranges. The barrel with 7K rounds that shoots 4 MOA at 500yds, may still shoot 1 MOA at 100yds.
100 yards is farther than a lot of people think.

A good barrel is a good barrel, and if used for something other than achieving the highest X count, the point of diminishing returns is something too many folks choose to ignore.

I don’t know, my glasses are yellow.

I intend to add that...

Of course the throat errosion is what kills a barrel (usually) and as you know the AR barrel can not be set back, and you are right on that accuracy figures can not be extended over range with any certainty.

I agree with your last statement completely... I like to use a simple (hypothetical) math formula to demonstarte the point better: Just say that formula is, that to reduce your group size by half, will double the cost of the barrel -- all is well and good to say "I will take the 150 dollar barrel that shoots 1.5 inch groups over the 75 dollar barrel that shoots 3.0 groups." It is even understandable to say "Better yet, let me get the 300 dollar barrel that shoots 0.75 inch groups, instead of the 150 dollar one." But it starts to get tough to rationalize saying "Actually, I want the 600 dollar barrel that shoots 0.38 inch groups...."

But as they say in the motorsports world... Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?

I was just at Frys this morning looking for a new DVD player and I hit the computer section -- they have a big display for the new Intel processor. That processor costs like five times what the one I have in this computer cost... I talked to the guy at the display a little and asked him "who really needs that?" He told me that outside of a few professionals doing very serious CGI and stuff, no one really needs it. So, I asked him "why would anyone pay that price for it then?" -- Just to say that they have it... his opinion of course, but hard to argue; heck, you can get a tshirt that says you are the owner of the latest computer processor.

bigbore
08-24-06, 21:37
Can you explain copper fouling to me like I'm 4 years old?

My 11.5" is a SS Wilson/RRA barrel that I cut down, plugged the gas port, and drilled another 1" forward. Its been host to a few different suppressors, been through 1 Hackathorn class, and lots of blasting with a fair amount of full auto mixed in. I just passed the 5K round mark a few weeks ago. To see how it was shooting I put up a target at 100yds, and put 5 75gr TAP rounds down range. 4 of those 5 shots can be covered with a nickel. It still shoots.

Its a well cared for barrel as far as carbines go. I clean it after every trip to the range. Hoppes #9, wet patch dry patch. I dont use a brush.

For the first time, I did the hoppes procedure, then shooters choice copper remover - wet patch dry patch. I lost count, but It took 45 minutes before the patches came out white instead of blue.

With this being an "economy" barrel (will foul more), which still shot damn well, with all that copper, how much of a concern is copper fouling in a practical carbine?

K.L. Davis
08-28-06, 23:33
Can you explain copper fouling to me like I'm 4 years old?



I don't know if I can explain anything to anyone in those terms :eek:

Nor do I think that I can share anything about barrel fouling that you do not already know, but here is what I do know. Jacket fouling is a result of two things, the first being the jacket material that is released from the bullet in the initial stage of the shot, this occurs as the "gases" are actually in a plasma state and heat the jacket to the point that copper is released into the plama state.

This is a more like a plating really, it occurs in the very first part of the barrel throat and bore and is generally very uniform in deposition.

After this, the more traditional form of fouling occurs as the gilding metal galls in the bore; these patches of built up copper cause differences in the friction that is applied to the bullet as it travels down the bore. This friction can "tear" at the bullet's jacket and deform the base of the bullet, causing it to be unstable in flight.

Now, how often does it occur and at what point is it an issue? I have found that barrels are a lot like people in this matter; just like some people have a natural propensity to be artistic, athletic, or whatever... some barrels will foul more than others -- there is no hard and fast rule as to what make a barrel more or less likely to be a "fouler", but bore surface and consistant/correct bore diameter certainly play a big part in it.

As you know, there are the odd occasions where a barrel can not go a half dozen shots without throwing rounds all over the place... a good cleaning and it is back for a few more rounds, but fouls out just as quickly -- I think the name for these is "lemon" or "junk"?

And as you know, some rifles can go hundreds or thousands of rounds with little effect on accuracy from fouling -- when a shooter makes his first shot, it is called a Clean Cold Bore (CCB) shot, professional shooters even have seperate dope for this... oddly enough, the CCB shot is generally not the most "efficient" shot, as thin films of lubricants can increase the force needed to push that first shot and the cold bore is "tight" -- this CCB shot generally will have a higher recorded peak chamber pressure than the follow-up shot, I have known guys that even put a round in the ground before a patrol for a "fouling shot" (and other reasons).

As stated, bore surface is a primary suspect in a fouler... lapping and plating are thought to be preventive measures and record books support this.

To answer your question though, fouling is a concern if it is a problem (how is that for a cop out!) -- with most "practical" guns, fouling will reduce accuracy so little that it is not noticed... we can always blaim that one "flyer" on fouling though -- benchrest shooters can give themself ulcers worrying about it, but most of us don't have to worry that much, the potential for the group opening can still be covered by the illuminated dot in the optic sight...

As for the "blue patches" as a litmus test for copper... that can be very deceiving, it takes very little copper to make those patches blue and a lot of that fouling resides in the corners of the rifling, where is is doing little harm.

SinnFéinM1911
08-29-06, 09:10
I wonder if I can make a barrel out of kryptonite ?? That way I can fight evil powers across the universe ....

All joking aside, GREAT POST KL, like always ...

Airborne12b
02-06-07, 09:02
I know this is going to paint me as a noob, but I have to ask. I just built my first AR. This will not be my first time using the platform by any means, mind you. I have been isued probably 10-12 different AR variants over my time in the Army but none of these were NIB. The closest was the M4 that I was issued when I deployed to Iraq. As such I was never concerned with proper break in. For that matter I never remember in my time in the Army ever being told how to break in a new rifle. I am not sure if this is the best place to post this question but I figured that it being titles Barrels 101 that I would post it here. Thanks.

Austin_Nichols
03-11-07, 22:20
The most common stainless in use for AR barrels is 416, this steel is plentiful, not expensive and machines nearly as well as the carbon steels

The statement in red is backwards. 416R is easier to machine than the chromoly steels.

Great write up!

K.L. Davis
03-12-07, 10:07
The statement in red is backwards. 416R is easier to machine than the chromoly steels.


Well, I would say that which is "easier" (between chromo and 416) has a lot to do with the experience and preference of the machine operator, as well as what type of machine is being used -- but yes, many will say that they prefer to work with 416 vice 4150...

...but that is not what I said.

I maybe should make it clearer though: Metals are (loosely) rated with a "machinability rating" -- and the base for this rating (1.0) is free machining carbon steel, alloys can be much lower on the scale, right off the top of my head, I think that 41XX is down around .50-.60 and 416R is well above that in the .80s?

But, as this is a primer, I just thought I would make the general statement that 416 machines nearly as well as carbon steel, rather than say that it has a rating of .85 (or whatever)... then we are off on free machining additives and resulfurization, chip control, inclusions and break points, and then the door is opened to the dreaded sulfur stringers and then night of the living sulfur stringers and then... ;)




Great write up!
Thanks!

Austin_Nichols
03-12-07, 16:51
Well, I would say that which is "easier" (between chromo and 416) has a lot to do with the experience and preference of the machine operator, as well as what type of machine is being used -- but yes, many will say that they prefer to work with 416 vice 4150...

...but that is not what I said.

I maybe should make it clearer though: Metals are (loosely) rated with a "machinability rating" -- and the base for this rating (1.0) is free machining carbon steel, alloys can be much lower on the scale, right off the top of my head, I think that 41XX is down around .50-.60 and 416R is well above that in the .80s?

But, as this is a primer, I just thought I would make the general statement that 416 machines nearly as well as carbon steel, rather than say that it has a rating of .85 (or whatever)... then we are off on free machining additives and resulfurization, chip control, inclusions and break points, and then the door is opened to the dreaded sulfur stringers and then night of the living sulfur stringers and then... ;)


Kino, are we not on the same page? Based on your own machinability numbers, 416 is clearly the easier of the two (meaning 416 compared to chromoly) to machine at similar hardness. Barrels aren't made from low carbon free machining steel so it really isn't relevant to compare it to 416R.

For those that don't know...

The American Iron and Steel Institute ran tests for machinability using AISI B1112 at 160 Brinell (a free machining low carbon steel) being turned at 180 surface feet and compared it to other materials. Its performance (set at 100%) is the basis for the ratings of other metals. Those materials with a rating of less than 100% are more difficult to machine. Those with a rating of over 100% are easier to machine.

4140/4150 chromoly steel has a machinability rating of approximately .32 to .52 depending on hardness. But 416 is a free machining martensitic stainless and has a rating of anywhere from .24 to .88 depending on hardness.

For comparison, Inconel is around .12, 7075 aluminum runs anywhere from approximately 3.2 to 4.8.

Dport
03-12-07, 17:36
Awesome post. Everything you wanted to know about barrels but were afraid to ask.:eek:

I too would like to see some discussion about breaking in a barrel. I remember what Gale McMillan wrote on The High Road a few years back, but his opinion seemed to be a minority viewpoint.

Leethal
04-09-07, 09:22
Great stuff!


I know this is going to paint me as a noob, but I have to ask. I just built my first AR. This will not be my first time using the platform by any means, mind you. I have been isued probably 10-12 different AR variants over my time in the Army but none of these were NIB. The closest was the M4 that I was issued when I deployed to Iraq. As such I was never concerned with proper break in. For that matter I never remember in my time in the Army ever being told how to break in a new rifle. I am not sure if this is the best place to post this question but I figured that it being titles Barrels 101 that I would post it here. Thanks.

It's my understanding that with chrome-lined barrels, there's no "break-in" other than just shooting it.

You can find SS and unlined Chrome-Moly barrel break-in instructions on the web... there are several methods depending on the author. YMMV.

Stik
05-23-07, 06:53
So from what I've read, Colt, LMT, CMT, BCM and the upper end (true mil-spec) manufacturers use 4150 and the more civilian recognized manufacturers like RRA, DPMS, Bushmaster, etc. use 4140? Just curious.

I figure most of the 1/9 twist barrels will be the 4140, but as I've stated in other posts, I'm a tech junkie and "just want to know". Also, alot of folks use "Wilson" (Wilson arms) heavy match barrels and E.R. Shaw "heavy match" barrels, I assume they are mostly 4140 when supplied to RRA, DPMS, Model 1, etc unless they are the 416 SS?????

Great post, very informative. Thanks for your time input into it.

C4IGrant
05-23-07, 08:55
So from what I've read, Colt, LMT, CMT, BCM and the upper end (true mil-spec) manufacturers use 4150 and the more civilian recognized manufacturers like RRA, DPMS, Bushmaster, etc. use 4140? Just curious.

I figure most of the 1/9 twist barrels will be the 4140, but as I've stated in other posts, I'm a tech junkie and "just want to know". Also, alot of folks use "Wilson" (Wilson arms) heavy match barrels and E.R. Shaw "heavy match" barrels, I assume they are mostly 4140 when supplied to RRA, DPMS, Model 1, etc unless they are the 416 SS?????

Great post, very informative. Thanks for your time input into it.

BM uses 4150, just not the kind that the Military requires.



C4

isakhnov
05-26-07, 23:52
Probably a stupid question but what difference should there be between 1/7 and 1/9 twist in carbine barrel?

C4IGrant
05-27-07, 07:06
Probably a stupid question but what difference should there be between 1/7 and 1/9 twist in carbine barrel?


The length of the gas system and the twist rate really don't have anything to do with one another.



C4

isakhnov
05-27-07, 11:20
The length of the gas system and the twist rate really don't have anything to do with one another.
C4

I understand how it is made, question is what should I expect from two identical carbines where one has 1/7 and another has 1/9 twist? If nothing then why some manufacturers adopt 1/9 while other 1/7?

C4IGrant
05-27-07, 11:31
I understand how it is made, question is what should I expect from two identical carbines where one has 1/7 and another has 1/9 twist? If nothing then why some manufacturers adopt 1/9 while other 1/7?

Well it depends on several things. For instance, a 1/7 twist barrel shoots 55gr ammo very well to about 100yds. Past that we see the groups open up a lot. Same with the 1/9 twist barrels. At about 100yds, 75/77gr ammo does pretty well, but as you go farther out, your group sizes can open up.

So if you want to shoot heavier grain bullets at distances over 100yds, stick with a 1/7 twist barrel (which is what I shoot).


C4

isakhnov
05-27-07, 14:35
Well it depends on several things. For instance, a 1/7 twist barrel shoots 55gr ammo very well to about 100yds. Past that we see the groups open up a lot. Same with the 1/9 twist barrels. At about 100yds, 75/77gr ammo does pretty well, but as you go farther out, your group sizes can open up.

So if you want to shoot heavier grain bullets at distances over 100yds, stick with a 1/7 twist barrel (which is what I shoot).


C4

Thanks, that makes sense. I'm not planning to go long with the carbine and will be looking at .308 for that purpose some time later (and that opens another set of questions but probably for a different board :))

SHIVAN
08-18-07, 15:45
Bump...

sinister
07-09-10, 11:23
http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/Experiments%20with%20Hammer%20Forged%20Barrels%20on%20AR-15s,%20Part%20II.pdf

http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/ExperimentswithHammerForgedBarrelsonAR-15s.pdf

eternal24k
07-11-10, 07:15
this should be stickied without a doubt.

Alex V
07-12-10, 14:32
Inconel :p

seems that 4150/CMV is hard to beat for the platform...

Knowing how much an Inconel exhaust valve costs, I can only imagine how much an Inconel barrel would be lol.

Awesome post, very informative! Thank you

mkmckinley
07-13-10, 11:58
Thanks for the writeup; very informative and concise.

hikeeba
07-16-10, 10:25
this should be stickied without a doubt.

[light-hearted jab made in jest] And finished, too.[/light-hearted jab] ;)


http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/Experiments%20with%20Hammer%20Forged%20Barrels%20on%20AR-15s,%20Part%20II.pdf

http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/ExperimentswithHammerForgedBarrelsonAR-15s.pdf

Those are very interesting articles. I'd like to track down the other articles in the series. Thank you for posting those up.


A few months ago I researched barrels for my first build project. I scoured the Internet almost daily for several months before finally making a decision. Even though my research led me to M4C numerous times - sometimes to threads I had already visited several times - I never recall seeing this thread. I think I can work The Google pretty well, and thought my search terms within applicable topics were widely varied. Dang. My own process could have been much simpler if I had only discovered this thread first.

Thanks you for your time and info, Mr. Davis.

dewatters
07-18-10, 15:37
Would it be an exaggeration to suggest that the steels that are easiest to rifle by single-point cutters and broaches are also the fastest to wear out from use? The introduction of button rifling and then cold-hammer forged rifling offered the ability to economically rifle harder steels.

The ironic thing is that several Fudd rifle companies were using CHF barrels nearly four decades ago. Back in February 1971, "American Rifleman" ran the second of a three-part article by Jac Weller on the construction techniques used by US firearm manufacturers. Remington, Ruger, Weatherby, and Winchester were all cited as using CHF barrels for at least some calibers and models.

According to Roy Weatherby's biography, he was using CHF barrels in his Mark V rifles as early as 1959. (They were made by Sauer at the time.)

In his 1977 book "American Rifle Design and Performance", L.R. Wallack noted that Winchester was still producing CHF barrels, and their representatives had even claimed that they were the only major sporting arm manufacturer to chamber their barrels in the same process.

dewatters
07-18-10, 15:40
Those are very interesting articles. I'd like to track down the other articles in the series. Thank you for posting those up.


The other CHF articles can be found here:

http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/

sniperfrog
07-19-10, 11:23
Would it be an exaggeration to suggest that the steels that are easiest to rifle by single-point cutters and broaches are also the fastest to wear out from use? The introduction of button rifling and then cold-hammer forged rifling offered the ability to economically rifle harder steels.




Actually, barrels that are button rifled or hammer forged have to start out softer in order to be rifled. In the articles posted above about hammer forging, the author stated that the blanks are around 24-25rc before going in to the hammer forge machine, then come out of the machine about 30rc. I believe that button rifling will also work harden the bore.

A Kreiger or Obermeyer cut rifled barrel will also be around 28-30rc. Alot of high power and benchrest shooters say that cut rifled barrels last longer than buttoned.

M4Fundi
09-20-10, 02:35
The rifled part of the barrel is it exactly the same diameter from throat to bore usually?

Barrels like Centurion Arms barrels taper tighter toward the bore do they cut the rifling with one size tool so far down the barrel then change to a smaller diameter cutting tool for the last section?

snuffy2004
03-07-11, 21:30
I will have to read all of this a few times before I will understand all that I now know about it. :sarcastic:

Does anyone know if a Colt AR6721 is HC?

kingkroupa
03-08-11, 16:52
So where could I find out more info about stainless steel barrels and sub-zero temps? I'm in the process of building a new rifle and I'm looking at some different barrels. Problem is I live in Alaska and occasionally go shooting when it's -30 to -40 out.

snuffy2004
03-08-11, 18:40
If you think that 30 and 40 below zero is trigger training time, should you really be in possession of firearms??:no:

kingkroupa
03-08-11, 18:46
If you think that 30 and 40 below zero is trigger training time, should you really be in possession of firearms??:no:

I draw the line at -40, it gets down to about -60 where I'm at. Problem is it stays that cold for around 5 months and there are no indoor rifle ranges. So it's either go train in the cold (the enviroment I live in for 5 months) or don't train.

I take it you wouldn't be up for some -50 degree hunting trips up the hills? :D

snuffy2004
03-08-11, 19:03
When it gets below 60 above, my toes go numb. There was a drummer named Gene Kroupa a while back. Related?

kingkroupa
03-08-11, 19:04
When it gets below 60 above, my toes go numb. There was a drummer named Gene Kroupa a while back. Related?

Nope, no relation :(

bp7178
03-08-11, 19:38
So where could I find out more info about stainless steel barrels and sub-zero temps? I'm in the process of building a new rifle and I'm looking at some different barrels. Problem is I live in Alaska and occasionally go shooting when it's -30 to -40 out.

This was something that Kreiger had posted on their website, about using stainless barrels in the cold.

However, from Crucible Steel, the makers of 416R series stainless...


Although all martensitic stainless steels have reduced
ductility at very low temperatures, Crucible 416R can be
safely used down to minus 40°F (-40°C).

http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets2010/ds416Rv12010.pdf

kingkroupa
03-08-11, 19:51
This was something that Kreiger had posted on their website, about using stainless barrels in the cold.

However, from Crucible Steel, the makers of 416R series stainless...



http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets2010/ds416Rv12010.pdf

Awesome, thanks :cool:

Dirtyboy333
03-09-11, 23:49
Man that was an excellent write up, Thank you.

Question: I'm admittedly a Daniel Defense fan-boy and for a long time now i have been wondering about their barrel steel. For instance, on "The Chart" DD's 4150 barrel steel is highlighted in blue to show that its Mil spec/ quality like BCM and colt but it doesn't have the "mil-xxxxx" barrel steel that the top brands show. Bushmaster's barrel steel is 4150 according to the chart also but its not highlighted in blue or considered optimal. So, I know there is a difference between DD's steel and BM's steel but i don't know what it is or why DD's is considered as good as say BCM??? Can any1 explain??? I'm a DD fanboy so i'm not trying to knock DD or question their quality, i'm just trying to understand why it's quality. Also, the question in a few posts above about tapered bores is something i am interested in knowing too if someone can answer??? Thanks

joetownhound
07-21-13, 20:21
Man that was an excellent write up, Thank you.

Question: I'm admittedly a Daniel Defense fan-boy and for a long time now i have been wondering about their barrel steel. For instance, on "The Chart" DD's 4150 barrel steel is highlighted in blue to show that its Mil spec/ quality like BCM and colt but it doesn't have the "mil-xxxxx" barrel steel that the top brands show. Bushmaster's barrel steel is 4150 according to the chart also but its not highlighted in blue or considered optimal. So, I know there is a difference between DD's steel and BM's steel but i don't know what it is or why DD's is considered as good as say BCM??? Can any1 explain??? I'm a DD fanboy so i'm not trying to knock DD or question their quality, i'm just trying to understand why it's quality. Also, the question in a few posts above about tapered bores is something i am interested in knowing too if someone can answer??? Thanks

bump to the top

ZINCOGNITO
07-22-13, 21:19
Thanks for finding this and an excellent question regarding DD that would be greatly appreciated if someone would answer.

dookie1481
07-23-13, 23:54
Hopefully this will suffice: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37

Col_Crocs
07-24-13, 00:24
^^this.
I was going to comment that i read somewhere that DD uses ord4150 which falls under the above linked milspec sheet (dont know which of the 2). I did a quick search to verify this, only to end up on DDs website and find their barrels listed as CMV.

Dirtyboy333
07-24-13, 00:42
Very interesting! I wonder what bushmasters 4150 is lacking? In what form does this barrel steel leave the mill-->>>arrive at DD (etc.) CHF machine...sheets, cubes, cylinders???

KP0351
01-01-14, 14:48
great thread, very informative. thanks for taking the time to explain in great detail.

sinister
01-01-14, 16:23
Adding from the old rec.guns archive:

From: Ed.Harris@ (Ed Harris)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stainless steel barrels
Date: 9 Oct 90 17:28:41 GMT

In article (Jerry Roe) writes:

I believe you'll find a stainless barrel worth the money. I've seen rifle advertisements which suggest up to double the life of a standard steel barrel (can't quote which one, unfortunately).

Stainless has a high chromium content, The bore life of stainless barrels depends a lot on the particular alloy and the hardness, the method by which the barrel is made, and the presence of machining additives. In general the use of selium or sulphur would weigh against use of stainless in high stressed environments due to poor notching characteristics. as typical alloys like 416R while offering mirror finish machining, have failed when used in M14 rifle barrels and other applications where exterior machining or welding (as for the operating rod guide on an M14) was done.

This would also suggest against use of stainless in hot belted magnums such as the .300 Win. or 7 mm Mag. in light sporter barrels because the presence of sulphide stringers, which could act as stress risers, could affect ultimate strength. Most button rifled stainless barrel are only about 20-24 Rockwell C, whereas the lower sulphur grades which are hammer forged are usually about .006 max. sulphur - nuclear grade material, and are much stronger.

When I was at Ruger we used a type 415 stainless for .44 Mag. Redhawk barrels and cylinders, of Rc 35 Min., and this was incredibly strong stuff. I don't know anybody else except Steyr and HK who make barrels out of steel of this cleanliness.

--

Ed Harris, Ed.Harris
via The Black Cat's Shack's FidoNet<->Usenet Gateway
blkcat.fidonet.org and Fidonet 1:109/401
From: Rock McMillan
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun barrel metal?
Date: 21 Aug 1996 16:21:31 -0400

# #Most non-stainless steel barrels are made of AIME 4140 chrome-moly alloy steel. It's tougher than a $2.00 steak, and moderately difficult to machine. I don't know what alloy is used for stainless steel barrels, but suspect that it's a 300-series (in the US, these are know as 18-8's, reflecting the percentages of chromium and nickel).

# Not likely 300 series. These are generally too soft. Need hardness for all that wear on the grooves. Most references to SS firearms barrels that I have seen are 400 series. These can be machined in the annealed condition and heat treated to very high hardness.

Stainless steel was originally developed around the turn of the century and its first application was in rifle barrels, the alloy is 410. This is a heat-treatable martinsitic grade of stainless that is still used today in many applications. Later a more machinable alloy was developed by adding free machining additives to 410, this new alloy is 416. A slightly more refined version of 416 is now used by most of the custom barrel makers in this country, 416R. I have no idea what stainless alloy is used for pistol barrels.


From: Bart Bobbitt
Subject: Stainless Barrels vs. Cold Weather

Several arms companies have recently offered hunting rifles with a stainless steel barrel. Here's some cautionary information about stainless steel barrels.

When the temperature goes down, stainless steel has less fatigue resistance. Its physical properties drop off with temperature. There have been instances of stainless barrels in hunting rifles bursting when the ambient temperature is around zero degrees, or less.

Some custom barrel makers specifically caution against using their stainless barrels in hunting rifles. One (Krieger) doesn't even make sporting/hunting barrels in stainless steel. In a conversation with B.J. Obermeyer some years ago, he told me that some of his stainless barrels were installed in hunting rifles and used in Alaska winter-time hunts. Some of these barrels burst when fired.

Chrome-moly (i.e., type 4140 or 4150) barrels maintain their fatigue resistance very well in really cold temperatures. Stainless steel (i.e, type 416R), typically used for rifle barrels, is the really cold-weather culprit.

I'm wondering if anyone who has bought a new rifle with a stainless steel barrel has noticed any cautions in printed material supplied with the rifle. Even more so, I'm wondering if rifle makers even concern themselves with this issue.

BB


From: Gale McMillan
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stainless vs. Blued
Date: 13 May 1998 10:17:34 -0400

Bbemory wrote:
#
What advantages/disadvantages does stainless have over "regular" blued steel for a rifle barrel? Am considering purchase of (another) varmint gun, and am thinking of one of those newfangled stainless fluted barrels...


# #Bill McCormick
# #Member, Los Fresnos Rodeo Committee
# #
# #
# #
# #www.hiline.net/~corbson/rodeopage.htm
# #Ring Master, Texas Rodeo Web Ring
# #Join the Texas Rodeo Web Ring:
# # www.hiline.net/~corbson/texasrodeo.htm
# #Texas Rodeo Schedules: http://www.hiline.net/~corbson/rodeosked.htm
# #
# #
#
# I would be interested in hearing from the match shooters who nave experimented with both. They have very different thermal characteristics and St St has generally poorer machining quality so is one more accurate than the other? I have never used stainless on a rifle.

# Blair
# JOIN THE NRA, IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE

Contrary to general impressions Stainless steel that is used in the firearms is not more difficult but is much more machineable than chromoly.

The s/s used in barrel steel is stainless screw stock 416R made to run on auto screw machines at high speed. The steel used in s/s actions is 17-4, a tougher steel that take more tool pressure but machines nicely. Stainless doesn't have the tensile strength that a chromoly like 4340 does. Due to the softness of barrel s/s which is 27 to 29 Rockwell C it will not last as long as 4140 and while it is believed to withstand heat erosion better I have not found that to be true.

As a summery due the better machine ability, s/s barrels can be made with closer dimensions and surface finishes. It will produce more accurate barrels.

The sole benefit of fluted barrels is that to some people it looks neat. If you are lucky a fluted barrel will shoot as well as or nearly as well as an unfluted barrel. And the gunsmith needs the money.

Gale McMillan

cjb
01-01-14, 20:56
The rifled part of the barrel is it exactly the same diameter from throat to bore usually?

Barrels like Centurion Arms barrels taper tighter toward the bore do they cut the rifling with one size tool so far down the barrel then change to a smaller diameter cutting tool for the last section?

It would be theoretically possuble to make mandrel for hammer forging with slight taper, but in every instance that I know of, its not the rifling that varies, but the bore. The bore is varied by means of selective lapping.

Surpised to see that there was not discussion of gain twist rifling!

lre433
03-06-14, 20:58
Regarding Rate of Twist,
If I understand correctly, a rate of twist of 1:11 is more efficient for lighter grained bullets, but doesn't do so well with heavy bullets. However, a 1:7 twist is needed for a heavy bullet, but will it be just as effective with a light weight bullet?

Eric D.
03-06-14, 21:49
That is correct. 1/7 is sort of a catch all for heavy bullets in the 70 gr range and above and works with bullets on down to 55 gr. Less than 55 gr though and you're approaching the threshold of over-stabilization


Regarding Rate of Twist,
If I understand correctly, a rate of twist of 1:11 is more efficient for lighter grained bullets, but doesn't do so well with heavy bullets. However, a 1:7 twist is needed for a heavy bullet, but will it be just as effective with a light weight bullet?

Onyx Z
03-06-14, 23:28
That is correct. 1/7 is sort of a catch all for heavy bullets in the 70 gr range and above and works with bullets on down to 55 gr. Less than 55 gr though and you're approaching the threshold of over-stabilization

That's why I prefer 1/8 twist. They can handle the whole spectrum of mag length loads. My precision barrel is 1/8, but it's pretty tough to find a chrome lined 1/8 barrel for some reason.

MistWolf
03-07-14, 02:06
That is NOT correct. Bullet weight has little to do with the twist needed to stabilize the bullet. It's bullet LENGTH. A short round nosed bullet can weigh as much as a long pointy bullet and need less twist to stabilize. A bullet with a lead core will weigh more than a bullet of the same shape made of solid copper and both will need the same twist

jstone
03-07-14, 03:07
That is correct. 1/7 is sort of a catch all for heavy bullets in the 70 gr range and above and works with bullets on down to 55 gr. Less than 55 gr though and you're approaching the threshold of over-stabilization

Bullets are either stabil or they are not. You can cause a bullet to break up from to fast of a twist rate in a barrel. But you can not over stabilize a bullet. Over stabilization is an oxy moron.How can something be to stabil.

markm
03-07-14, 08:09
That's why I prefer 1/8 twist. They can handle the whole spectrum of mag length loads. My precision barrel is 1/8, but it's pretty tough to find a chrome lined 1/8 barrel for some reason.

You should be looking at SIONICs, MAMA!! That's their barrel.

Onyx Z
03-07-14, 08:47
That is NOT correct. Bullet weight has little to do with the twist needed to stabilize the bullet. It's bullet LENGTH. A short round nosed bullet can weigh as much as a long pointy bullet and need less twist to stabilize. A bullet with a lead core will weigh more than a bullet of the same shape made of solid copper and both will need the same twist

And typically, the heavier the bullet, the longer it is... of course there are exceptions to every rule.

Theoretically, a 1/8 can shoot the longer/heavier bullets and the shorter/lighter bullets without the worry of spinning them apart. In the end, both 1/7 and 1/8 will work for what is typically put through an AR.

MistWolf
03-07-14, 09:53
And typically, the heavier the bullet, the longer it is... of course there are exceptions to every rule...

The AR is not the only rifle in the world and the 5.56 is not the only caliber. A 90 gr 22 caliber bullet is longer and requires a tighter twist to stabilize it than a 90 gr 30 caliber bullet. It's not weight, it's length- or more accurately, it's the length to diameter ratio. Round balls typically stabilize with about a 1:22 twist, even the massive 4 bore throwing a quarter pound of lead. That's much heavier than a 90 gr 22 caliber bullet

artyman
03-09-14, 11:10
Sorry for the intrusion…… If my memory on interior ballistics is correct, I believe its more accurately the bearing surface of the projectile, not its weight or length that would require a specific twist to stabilize. The ogive and boat tail wouldn't matter. Although I cannot reference it, I believe this is why we have the 1x7 twist for the M16 series. It isn't the M855 62 gr projectile, but rather, the M856, which is the same weight, but has a much greater bearing surface, requiring a tighter twist rate to stabilize. Hence, cross compatibility of all our ammunition across platforms- M16 series and M249 saw.

Thanks for listening.

Artyman

markm
03-10-14, 09:26
but rather, the M856, which is the same weight, but has a much greater bearing surface, requiring a tighter twist rate to stabilize.

Have you ever seen one of those projectiles out of the brass? They are CRAZY long.

lre433
03-17-14, 06:57
Ok. Thanks. Is there a chart somewhere that breaks down the rate of twist in relation to the weight/length or surface area of the bullet?

lre433
03-17-14, 07:46
I have been trying to build my knowledge on barrels and until now, thought chrome lined was the best for durability. I have just been reading some posts about Melonite treated/coated barrels. This process seems to be gaining popularity. What can you tell me about Melonite barrels? Thanks...

markm
03-17-14, 09:02
I have been trying to build my knowledge on barrels and until now, thought chrome lined was the best for durability. I have just been reading some posts about Melonite treated/coated barrels. This process seems to be gaining popularity. What can you tell me about Melonite barrels? Thanks...

Chrome Lined barrels last plenty long. Melonite may have some great upsides... I have no idea... but the problems with some of the idiot using this process are enough to steer me clear and stick to Regular CL barrels.

ColtSeavers
03-17-14, 09:31
Chrome Lined barrels last plenty long. Melonite may have some great upsides... I have no idea... but the problems with some of the idiot using this process are enough to steer me clear and stick to Regular CL barrels.

To expand upon what markm posted, the melonite process must be done properly for the barrel to gain longevity advantages over CL and other types of barrels. By this I mean that the process must be very carefully controlled, the receiver extension must be removed from the barrel (if not done sperately, cannot remember if that is a proper procedure though), both extension and barrel cleaned of agents and reattached to proper torque to ensure there is no corrosion from within the threads and the gas port should've been drilled before the entire process as well. Not all companies that offer melonited/nitrided barrels adhere to such a high level of preparation.

A company like AR15Performance has actually done a lot of research on the process and does adhere to such a high level of preparation (if not having pioneered a lot of it themselves).

This is all from memory so if any of this is incorrect I apologize in advance.

lre433
03-17-14, 11:19
Thanks for the input. I have been considering buying intead of building too. Looking at S&W AR15 MOE which has a 4150 steel barrel with melonite treatment. I will assume that getting this from the S&W factory will assure proper melonite proceedures. At first I was disappointed that it didn't come with a chrome lined barrel, but now I think I am okay with it.

polydeuces
03-17-14, 14:34
Hey guys, can we sticky KL's barrel 101 please?

Didn't realize it wasn't until I just now saw it here amongst the usual posts - thought is was stickied already........

Thx.

Straight Shooter
05-27-14, 00:59
Is there a place where I can see pics of all the current barrel profiles with their proper names?

M&P15T
06-16-14, 08:14
O.k.

For the last few days I have been reading up on the cold hammer forging process for making barrels, so I think I have a handle on the different ways barrels can be made.

Now my next question is about the mil spec steel. I have a BCM AR, and it has a barrel made from 11595E - Barrel Steel. So what is that in relation to 4140 or 4150?

As far as chrome lining a barrel, I am given to understand that chrome lining imparts a surface hardness to the steel. Does anyone know what Rockwell hardness rating results from chrome lining a 4140, 4150, or 11595E barrel? Is it basically the same amongst the three, or would you have three distinctly different end products?

MorphCross
06-17-14, 00:12
O.k.

For the last few days I have been reading up on the cold hammer forging process for making barrels, so I think I have a handle on the different ways barrels can be made.

Now my next question is about the mil spec steel. I have a BCM AR, and it has a barrel made from 11595E - Barrel Steel. So what is that in relation to 4140 or 4150?

As far as chrome lining a barrel, I am given to understand that chrome lining imparts a surface hardness to the steel. Does anyone know what Rockwell hardness rating results from chrome lining a 4140, 4150, or 11595E barrel? Is it basically the same amongst the three, or would you have three distinctly different end products?

Peruse at thine leisure : https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?37-Barrel-Steel-4150-4140-Chrome-Moly-CMV

M1Grandfan100
01-27-15, 20:06
Ok so here's a barrel question. I have a LMT Defender 2000 with a carbine gas system and a 16" barrel. Since I don't see myself using this over my future MRP, I was wondering if I could cut it down to a 12" SBR. It does have a M4 profile barrel. Is there anything wrong with this? And yes I plan on suppressing it

eec4tuner
02-01-15, 12:47
Cool beans.

LRRPF52
02-01-15, 16:53
Ok so here's a barrel question. I have a LMT Defender 2000 with a carbine gas system and a 16" barrel. Since I don't see myself using this over my future MRP, I was wondering if I could cut it down to a 12" SBR. It does have a M4 profile barrel. Is there anything wrong with this? And yes I plan on suppressing it

People do that all the time. Consider ADCO and anticipate having the gas port opened up, since it currently is probably .068".

http://www.fototime.com/%7BF6DD47B7-8371-4A98-9E3A-6CC740FBDDFC%7D/picture.GIF

tom12.7
02-01-15, 18:10
People do that all the time. Consider ADCO and anticipate having the gas port opened up, since it currently is probably .068".

http://www.fototime.com/%7BF6DD47B7-8371-4A98-9E3A-6CC740FBDDFC%7D/picture.GIF
I would hope that's it's not .068" before reducing the length from 16"

BufordTJustice
02-01-15, 19:09
I would hope that's it's not .068" before reducing the length from 16"
Yeah, that's supposed to be more .061 -.064, IIRC.

tom12.7
02-02-15, 18:07
Yeah, that's supposed to be more .061 -.064, IIRC.
Yes, I would expect measurements between .062-.063" in a TDP barrel. I wish there was more of a variety of .058" and smaller ported barrels barrels for specific reasons.

BufordTJustice
02-02-15, 21:13
Yes, I would expect measurements between .062-.063" in a TDP barrel. I wish there was more of a variety of .058" and smaller ported barrels barrels for specific reasons.
Didn't LMT used to make some closer to that a while back?

Dirtyboy333
02-03-15, 05:14
I've always heard that LmT is overgassed m not under

fbmbirds
03-28-15, 15:25
Very nice information

Leuthas
03-28-15, 19:41
They are.

My LMT 10.5 is .071 if I recall correctly. Their 14.5s are around .063. I know LMT follows with the same spec as Colt, which is .063 for 14 and 16 inch.


I've always heard that LmT is overgassed m not under

Sovereignty57
06-16-16, 06:33
This is what I've heard as well, I recently purchased a Lothar-Walther stainless that has been melonite treated. The barrel extension was done separately from the barrel to prevent any salt from getting trapped between the barrel and barrel extension, as it could lead to corrosion issues. It was then shipped back to Lothar-Walther to have the gas port drilled