.45ACP Low Recoil Ammo?

[NightFighter]

I have been trying to find defensive ammunition that would produce less recoil in my XD .45ACP Compact and came across Federal Premium Personal Defense Low Recoil Ammunition 45 ACP 165 Grain Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this ammunition? I know shot placement is one of the most important aspect of self defense and trigger control, but ammunition plays a part and I am looking to use good ammo with as little recoil as possible. Thanks. I anyone has any suggestions on self defense ammo please add that to this thread.

[HolyRoller]

You could always handload if you have the time. I've worked up a load for my match 1911 that cycles reliably with ball but doesn't kick a lot. I wouldn't want it for defense because of excessive muzzle flash. Bullseye pistol shooters use weak springs and low-powered semiwadcutter loads, which other than on a bullseye range are not what you want either.

You might could look at Cor-Bon's DPX, which I believe is also a 165-grain projectile. However, it's also probably over $1 per round. Before spending a lot of time and money on a quest for less recoil in a .45, I would suggest a couple of other options:

It could be that more and/or better training will enable you to manage .45 recoil with standard loads. Hundreds of thousands of law enforcement officers have learned to do this, and you probably have more talent than most of them.

How about a 9mm XD? This has less recoil, good-enough fighting power with modern hollowpoints, and practice ammo costs half as much.

[rob_s]

Just out of curiosity, what is the motivation for reduced recoil defensive ammo in .45?

[Gunfighter13]

I have been trying to find defensive ammunition that would produce less recoil in my XD .45ACP Compact and came across Federal Premium Personal Defense Low Recoil Ammunition 45 ACP 165 Grain Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this ammunition? I know shot placement is one of the most important aspect of self defense and trigger control, but ammunition plays a part and I am looking to use good ammo with as little recoil as possible. Thanks. I anyone has any suggestions on self defense ammo please add that to this thread.


Stick with the 230 gr rounds. The lighter rounds have more felt recoil than the 230 gr.

The Ranger T or Hydra-shok bonded are the two that I use. Approx 850 fps is as low as I would recommend for a defense load.

It's a 45. What did you expect? Recoil like a 9mm? Cowboy up! LOL.....

[Double Naught Spy]

Stick with the 230 gr rounds. The lighter rounds have more felt recoil than the 230 gr.

The Ranger T or Hydra-shok bonded are the two that I use. Approx 850 fps is as low as I would recommend for a defense load.

It's a 45. What did you expect? Recoil like a 9mm? Cowboy up! LOL.....

Interesting, out of my full-sized 1911, I find that standard pressure lighter ammo has less recoil than 230 gr. standard pressure ammo. However, the descriptor may be misleading. The 165s and 185s seem to have a snappier or sharper recoil pulse, but it is less in duration and hence does not upset the sight picture as much as 230 gr stuff that has a pushier recoil that seems to be over a longer duration and is more prone to disturb the sight picture longer.

[Gunfighter13]

Interesting, out of my full-sized 1911, I find that standard pressure lighter ammo has less recoil than 230 gr. standard pressure ammo. However, the descriptor may be misleading. The 165s and 185s seem to have a snappier or sharper recoil pulse, but it is less in duration and hence does not upset the sight picture as much as 230 gr stuff that has a pushier recoil that seems to be over a longer duration and is more prone to disturb the sight picture longer.


The lighter ammo seems to have a more violent, sharper if you may, recoil IMO. The 230gr seem to spread the recoil out, longer duration, which to me seems less violent. A standard 165 moves at about 1050 fps or faster (same fps as the +P ammo) while the standard 230 move at 850 fps (factory LE or Defensive loads). To me shooting the light stuff is like shooting the 230+P. I use the High-grip-thumbs-forward grip so the gun does not take longer for me to get back on target. As a matter of fact the gun hardly moves with the heaver rounds. That includes my compact guns. Limp wristed shooters will most likely agree with you because they let the gun move on it’s own. The gun is in control not the shooter. That seems to account for slow follow up shots and poor accuracy.

[NightFighter]

It could be that more and/or better training will enable you to manage .45 recoil with standard loads. Hundreds of thousands of law enforcement officers have learned to do this, and you probably have more talent than most of them.

How about a 9mm XD? This has less recoil, good-enough fighting power with modern hollowpoints, and practice ammo costs half as much. The problem isnt that I cant control the XD45. I was just looking to see if I could gain an advantage with low recoil ammo. ;)

[NightFighter]

Just out of curiosity, what is the motivation for reduced recoil defensive ammo in .45?That is a topic you would have to take up with Federal. They have significantly more information and skill at making ammo than I. I figured that since it was described as defensive ammo that their would be some advantage to using the ammo. I am just trying to get any edge I can for my SD handgun.

[NightFighter]

Stick with the 230 gr rounds. The lighter rounds have more felt recoil than the 230 gr.

The Ranger T or Hydra-shok bonded are the two that I use. Approx 850 fps is as low as I would recommend for a defense load.

It's a 45. What did you expect? Recoil like a 9mm? Cowboy up! LOL.....

At present I use 45 ACP Federal LE Tactical HST 230gr. +P HP and 45 ACP Federal LE Tactical EFMJ 200gr. +P in a stagger formation in my XD45 Compact. So I am used to the recoil of the XD45. I am just trying to find out if there is another round that might give me similar results with a little less recoil.

[NightFighter]

[QUOTE=Gunfighter13;77937] I use the High-grip-thumbs-forward grip so the gun does not take longer for me to get back on target. As a matter of fact the gun hardly moves with the heaver rounds. QUOTE] I am trying to get used to the high grip thumbs forward grip at present. This grip seems to allow me more control over the gun than any other grip I have previously used. The only problem that I have been running into is that I hit the take down lever with my thumb occassionally. I know it is just a matter of more practice and more classes. I figured that if I could find quality low recoil ammo that provided good defensive results then I would have another advantage in a self denfese situation.

[rob_s]

OK, now I find this subject to be even more odd.:confused:

Most of the reduced recoil handgun ammo is intended for the sub-compact pistols. The first time I saw ammo like this was just after the G26/27 were introduced and companies started making ammo that was supposed to be optimized for the shorter barrels and lighter frames.

Stick to regular ammo in the fullsize guns. Generally speaking, defensive ammo isn't one of the things that is worth over-thinking.

[Gunfighter13]

At present I use 45 ACP Federal LE Tactical HST 230gr. +P HP and 45 ACP Federal LE Tactical EFMJ 200gr. +P in a stagger formation in my XD45 Compact. So I am used to the recoil of the XD45. I am just trying to find out if there is another round that might give me similar results with a little less recoil.


The easiest thing for you to do is stop using the +P ammo. It is not needed. The standard 230gr bonded HST is all you need. Not trying to be a “SA” but why two different kinds of ammo in the same magazine?

[Double Naught Spy]

The lighter ammo seems to have a more violent, sharper if you may, recoil IMO. The 230gr seem to spread the recoil out, longer duration, which to me seems less violent. A standard 165 moves at about 1050 fps or faster (same fps as the +P ammo) while the standard 230 move at 850 fps (factory LE or Defensive loads). To me shooting the light stuff is like shooting the 230+P. I use the High-grip-thumbs-forward grip so the gun does not take longer for me to get back on target. As a matter of fact the gun hardly moves with the heaver rounds. That includes my compact guns. Limp wristed shooters will most likely agree with you because they let the gun move on it’s own. The gun is in control not the shooter. That seems to account for slow follow up shots and poor accuracy.

I think you have confused the concepts of marksmanship and accuracy. I don't see any significant differences in the accuracy of either 165, 185, 200, or 230 gr. ammo. Some folks may not do as well with as well with recoil and that may upset their followup shots, but that is an issue of marksmanship.

Funny you think the 165 stuff is so brutal. My wife loves it.

[John Hearne]

I avoid low-recoil anything, whether its pistol rounds or shotgun rounds. The only way its low-recoil is if there is less energy going down range. Pistols are pretty pathetic fight stoppers without downloading them.

I just returned from an FBI firearm instructor course. They discussed their 40 S&W load that is downloaded. The general consensus with their ballistic people is that the bullet performs like a high-quality 9mm, not a 40 S&W, it simply isn't moving fast enough.

I go out of my way to carry +P 45 on-duty. 1) I have a standard Sig P220 and the 4.4" barrel needs the extra powder to push the bullet to proper velocity 2) I like the noice for psychological reasons.

If you want a compact pistol, with a barrel less than 4.0", I'd look at a 40 S&W. Those rounds are designed to work in short barrels. 45 JHP, especially 230 gr, expect a 5" barrel.

[Lumpy196]

Hold on tighter.

[Gunfighter13]

I think you have confused the concepts of marksmanship and accuracy. I don't see any significant differences in the accuracy of either 165, 185, 200, or 230 gr. ammo. Some folks may not do as well with as well with recoil and that may upset their followup shots, but that is an issue of marksmanship.

Funny you think the 165 stuff is so brutal. My wife loves it.

Confused me? Not at all. But I think you are. We were talking about one aspect of the whole. Perceived recoil. The difference in low recoil, standard and +P ammo as it related to maintaining shot placement in a self-defense gunfight. Any ammo that would give him the same results as the +P ammo he currently uses. No one has even come close to talking about "The Fundamentals of Marksmanship" :rolleyes:

[Keith E.]

I have been trying to find defensive ammunition that would produce less recoil in my XD .45ACP Compact

Give the Winchester 185 Silvertip a try and let us know what you think.

Keith

[MX5]

I see one of the replies recommended handloading. Using handloaded ammo for self defense is generally considered to be a very bad idea as it's not defensible in court and creates legal liability issues.

There are many good self defense loads commercially available. My personal choice for self defense concealed carry is Federal Premium .45 Auto +P 200 grain (P45CSP1). This is their Expanding Full Metal Jacket round. It is a +P loading with less perceived recoil than 230 gr. ball. It's flat point full metal jacket with polymer ball insert ensures consistent reliable feeding in handguns and expansion in soft tissue. This load also has a very small, almost negligible flash signature.

[Double Naught Spy]

Actually, the argument that Ayoob seems to make time and time again is not that handloads are not defensible in court, but that that produce gun shot reside that is not standardized and hence cannot be used to support one's claims about things such as shooting distances. Commercial loads are produced on a consistent basis with a standard loading per make and model of ammo such that it will produce consistent patterns when fired from a given gun and that those patterns can be replicated after the fact. This isn't always the case with handloads and so Ayoob has provided a couple of cases where handloads were used but that GSR evidence necessary to the case that would justify the shooter's claims for self defense could not be ascertained because of a lack of specific information on what sort of GSR would be produced by that particular handload.


Confused me? Not at all. But I think you are. We were talking about one aspect of the whole. Perceived recoil. The difference in low recoil, standard and +P ammo as it related to maintaining shot placement in a self-defense gunfight. Any ammo that would give him the same results as the +P ammo he currently uses. No one has even come close to talking about "The Fundamentals of Marksmanship" :rolleyes:

Actually, you seemed to be referring to problems of marksmanship with the uberpowerful lower weight ammo when you said,


The gun is in control not the shooter. That seems to account for slow follow up shots and poor accuracy.

Up until this point, nobody had mentioned accuracy or marksmanship, but you do here.

[HolyRoller]

I see one of the replies recommended handloading. Using handloaded ammo for self defense is generally considered to be a very bad idea as it's not defensible in court and creates legal liability issues.
uhhhh ... why? how? Does use of handloads change a justified shooting to unjustified? I just checked Lexis' entire database of reported federal cases with keyword "handload" and couldn't find any case where anybody had sued anybody else for shooting them with handloads.

I'm familiar with Uncle Mas' theory of gunshot residue and it seems to me that this is only important if the shooting is so close as to leave residue. You also have to remember which box or lot of ammo you were using. In our department, the firearms instructor just dumps me out 15 rounds of .45 Ranger SXT every year from whatever container they happened to be in. Beats me what lot they're from.

I'm not saying handloads are preferable, just questioning "legal liability" folklore wherever I find it. I carry factory ammo for serious use. Every now and then, one of my handloads doesn't turn out so good, but I haven't had a problem with Winchester Ranger, Cor-Bon DPX, or Black Hills match.

[MX5]

Justified vs. unjustified is a criminal issue and GSR plays here. As far as a trial, this isn't the point of the trial, but it is an argument that comes up and you'd better be prepared to face it. While you're at it, you'd better get your checkbook out because the clock is ticking and the price continues to go up by the hour.

Legal liability is completely different and hardly folklore. You can't just search keywords looking for federal dockets based on 1 word. There's a multitude of state and local jurisdictions to consider. Further, the harsh reality about legal liability is that the great majority of these cases are settled in court ordered mediation without ever going to trial. Mediation evidence, arguments and statements are privileged and not found on the internet or in law books. My experience isn't limited to firearms and ammo only, but this is a large part of it. This is personal observation and witness to hundreds of legal liability cases as part of a defense team with millions of dollars spent in legal fees and settlements cumulatively.

Initially you'll be challenged on where you received your professional training in reloading/handloading, what empirical data or standards did your research and development department use, what case lot did your loads come from and do you have exemplar samples. Oh, you're not a professional? Too bad. Your attorney can offer a defense, but at what cost and with what end result? How much can you afford to pay to be right vs. how much are you willing to pay to make this problem go away? After all, like it or not, that's what legal liability is usually about.

Whether or not you believe me is not the point here. My recommendation is to not take my word for it. If you want third party verification, I suggest you speak to attorneys specializing in commercial legal liability cases and the attendant insurance company representatives that they work for in defense of their clients. They've seen more of these type issues in a 5 year period than you could ever afford in a couple lifetimes. Good luck and remember, if you're not a professional, it really is too bad. Stick to factory ammo for self defense. The manufacturers can afford insurance you can only dream about. One last thing to consider is why your department doesn't allow the use of handloads as carry ammo.

[HolyRoller]

I could write a lot in response to that, but first I still need to know:

How does use of handloads change a justified shooting to unjustified?

Well, just ONE thing more. There are statutes and court rules that can shift fees in cases that were filed without probable cause or continued after it became clear that the suit was no longer viable. So it may be well worth one's while to go to trial sometimes. Also, settlements (believe it or not) often depend on the actual likelihood of success, so getting the law right is important.

Okay, one LAST thing. I have been sued before and/or defended motions for sanctions. Those who do it once to me don't do it again to me.

[MX5]

Whatever dude. Reading is fundamental and you're missing the point. Go to your Sheriff and the Law Director and explain that you're now going to be carrying your handloaded ammo while on duty. Good luck and let us know how that works for you.

[HolyRoller]

Sure enough, there's no explanation of how use of handloaded ammunition changes a justifiable shooting into an unjustifiable shooting. Probably because it doesn't. Once deadly force is justifiable, it's open season on the aggressor. Disconnect his central nervous system with a cranial vault shot from your sniper rifle; shred his innards with a center mass controlled pair from your patrol carbine; decapitate him with a 12-gauge; deploy a blade and reduce his blood pressure substantially; transfix him with a cloth-yard shaft; run over him; whatever comes to hand and mind, until he stops doing whatever he was doing that justified deadly force.

Reading is indeed fundamental. Especially reading what I actually wrote.

I'm not saying handloads are preferable, just questioning "legal liability" folklore wherever I find it. I carry factory ammo for serious use. Every now and then, one of my handloads doesn't turn out so good, but I haven't had a problem with Winchester Ranger, Cor-Bon DPX, or Black Hills match.
Fear not, I don't carry handloaded ammo on duty, nor will I ask to. I carry only what I'm allowed, i.e., either what I'm issued for duty weapons (Winchester Ranger STX .45 ACP, 00 tactical buck, low-recoil slugs, and USA223R1 55 FMJ .223) or what I qualified with for off-duty (Cor-Bon DPX 9mm and .38 Special). Anybody caught with any other load can expect large trouble with the brass.

Now here's how reloads CAN get you in trouble. Sheriff Standards only require us to use actual duty loads for half our qualification rounds, and allow us to use handloads or assorted junk for the other half our qualification rounds, such as, say, Ultracrap. This is how our lead firearms instructor's personal Beretta got Kaboomed. If the department was not following its duty of care in issuing only reasonably safe rounds on its range, then I would say, if anybody asked, that using dubious reloads very well might constitute negligence, and create liability for any damages. I can sure tell you that if my Springfield TRP 1911 gets likewise kB'd, somebody is going to follow me to the gun store and buy me a new one for only $1300-1400, and send another $100 or so to 10-8 Performance for the slide stop, mag catch, and rear sight.

However, since I am the only lawyer at my department, if somebody asked me for a legal opinion of handloaded ammo in actual shootings, I would have to be truthful: No North Carolina or federal court has ever considered handloaded ammunition to have been a factor, positive or negative, in a justified shooting. Nor can I imagine any scenario in which a court could find anyone civilly liable or criminally guilty, or increase damages or punishment, on grounds that ammunition used in a justified shooting was handloaded instead of factory new.

If somebody else can, I'm all ears. I'm not married to this opinion and if somebody shows me wrong, that's A-OK. For a year or so now, I've been reading pretty much every single published search or seizure opinion from the U.S. Court of Appeals and SCOTUS, and some U.S. District Court opinions too, and pretty much every single North Carolina appellate opinion, and blogging them--although I'm way behind at the moment, sighhh.

After reading through a few dozen of these opinions, you'll see that it is not so easy to hold an officer liable for use of force. I also, in my early wild days, used to sue corrections officers and prison medical contractors pretty frequently on behalf of my inmate clients. I can garontee from sad personal experience that even when inmates have been severely wronged on every level, it is ex-treeeeeeeeem-ly difficult to beat the Attorney General's summary judgment motions, and even if you do, it's next to impossible to get anything more than a piddling settlement. After a few years of civil rights litigation, and after the eight millionth time a criminal defense client said "I didn't do NOTHIN", it did feel pretty good when I stopped hitting myself upside the head with assorted constitutional bricks, and went to the LE side.

As to the incredible expense of defending even stupid cases, I modestly suggest not hiring gigantic national law firms, who will waste 90 to 97% of your money, and instead going with your friendly local lawyer who actually knows what s/he is doing and can get rid of the case in a few motions. We have an excellent one around here, and we also have ME, but I don't have the connections--yet--to land such business.

If you have to shoot somebody, chances are very high of getting sued even if you shot one of the North Hollywood bank robbers (which happened), but in case I haven't mentioned this before, use of handloads wouldn't make any legal difference. However, since factory loads do anything you need them to do these days, and are more reliable, then they are preferable to handloads for general defense and law enforcement use on tactical, not legal, grounds.

[MX5]

Once again you've missed the point and continue to prove mine, repeatedly. Don't make random assumptions on that which I've witnessed on a daily basis for 15 years. I'm not going to argue with you - feel free to have the last word, because you've lost everybody else by now.

[rob_s]

Every time this issue has come up I've asked if anyone knows of any cases where this was actually played in court (use of handloads, or choice of ammo at all for that matter) and I still can't find any.

Does anyone have anything?

[HolyRoller]

Pardon me MX5, but I thought the point was whether handloads are legally inadvisable for defensive use. Apparently it's not. Could you be more specific as to what the point is?

Rob, the only federal case on reloading liability since the invention of the metallic cartridge is Pate v. Howe, 103 F.Supp. 421 (D.Me. 1952), in which a low life gun dealer sold ammunition labeled 7.7mm Japanese that was no more than resized milsurp .30-06. This junk kB'd an extremely strong rifle and killed the shooter. The jury found the dealer liable and the First Circuit affirmed, Howe v. Pate, 199 F.2d 672 (1st Cir. 1952). Neither case has been cited in any other published case anywhere in America.

Neither have I found, although it's harder to think of efficient keywords for such a search, any case where anybody got in trouble for using or manufacturing more deadly ammo than the prosecutor or plaintiff thought they should have. In a case from the Colin Ferguson LIRR massacre, even the Second Circuit grudgingly ruled that Black Talon hollowpoints were not unreasonably dangerous per se under New York law, because a reasonable person could not foresee that their danger was greater than their utility, and the manufacturer had no control over Ferguson's actions and no duty to restrict Black Talon sales to LE only. McCarthy v. Olin Corp, 119 F.3d 148, 156 (2d Cir. 1997).

Just lately, an officer in Arkansas ND'd his SIG 220 into a subject while reholstering (Second and Third Rule violations), badly wounding the guy, so he sued the officer and everybody else in sight. Among other things, he complained that .45 hollowpoints were unconstitutional. The court ruled that the department's stated reason for issuing hollowpoints--"to provide weapons that would inflict maximum harm upon suspects in deadly force situations"--was, in technical legal terms, way cool and righteous. However, the ND in the first place, which the investigation showed could only have been caused by a finger on the trigger while reholstering, was uncool and most heinous and could very well have amounted to excessive force and/or legal negligence, so the bulk of the case was not dismissed. Lyons v. City of Conway, 2007 U.S.Dist. LEXIS 29871.

Well now that I've found that case using keyword "hollow point," there are a lot of cases with "hollow point" in them, so I'll get back to you about that.

[MX5]

Re-read 9/26.

Rob, PM inbound.

[Rifleman_04]

I have been trying to find defensive ammunition that would produce less recoil in my XD .45ACP Compact and came across Federal Premium Personal Defense Low Recoil Ammunition 45 ACP 165 Grain Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this ammunition? I know shot placement is one of the most important aspect of self defense and trigger control, but ammunition plays a part and I am looking to use good ammo with as little recoil as possible. Thanks. I anyone has any suggestions on self defense ammo please add that to this thread.


He asked about opinions based on actual experience with the specific round. Not to feed him assumptions some of you have thought up without any first hand experience with said round. (I know some of you gave some suggestions of good alternatives, Im talking about those who were sharing their hypothesis of percieved recoil, controllability and expansion of said round with no experience with it. Oh and that that rediculous talk of reloading a self defense round).

I use the Federal Premium Personal Defense Low Recoil Ammunition 45 ACP 165 Grain Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Points in my XD Service Model for a self defense round. I have only fired a little more than 150 rounds of it through my XD to make sure it fed reliably in it and to practice with it some because its not very cheap.

If any of you had fired the round in any number you would notice right away that it does have lower recoil than a full power 230gr FMJ and is not a "sharp" recoil like someone hypothosized. Low recoil did not affect the reliabilty of my XD and my very small statured sister-in-law enjoyed shooting that round and her grouping showed it.

Hollow points like that are nice because for some of us, (especially those of us who live in Apt Bldngs) over penetration is kind of a big deal, where in some cases only the bad guys body and one thin sheetrock wall and some insulation separate your rounds from your neighbors next door.

Hope that helped you out a little more.

[Liquid Rhino]

+1 on the LE Federal Tactical HST 230gr. for JHP (Standard, not the +P) - if you can find it.
This round is awesome. Burns clean, shoots straight, VERY LOW recoil and man, what a nasty expansion! :D

Speer Gold Dots have ALOT more recoil compared to these.

For low recoil FMJ's I've had good experiences with Federal American Eagle 230gr. It's cheap, effective and relatively accurate.